Question for Fans of Answers in Genesis

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rev.goetz

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Mar 21, 2006, 9:26:49 AM3/21/06
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I asked the follow question to AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino:

Could a shark have eaten an octopus before the first human sin?

Would any of the TO fans of AiG answer this question before I get
answers from AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino?

Geoff

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Mar 21, 2006, 1:11:39 PM3/21/06
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"rev.goetz" <jimgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142951209.1...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...

I think the stock answer is that there was no death before The Fall.
If octopi be considered alive and being consumed by a shark would
have resulted in death, then the answer would have to be no.


rev.goetz

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Mar 21, 2006, 1:51:41 PM3/21/06
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Well, Geoff, AiG already told me that octopus are not alive.

Dear Rev. Goetz,

Thank you for contacting Answers in Genesis. I apologize that it has
taken me so long to respond as we have been quite busy. I'm glad
that you asked the question about octopuses and squid. Attached is an
article about what animals can be considered "living" and
"nonliving" based on a biblical definition. Octopuses and even
giant squid could be considered "nonliving" creatures and the
article will explain why.

Considering death was not introduced until Adam sinned there would have
been no such thing as an "accidental death". I understand that it
is hard to imagine such a world, but we need to remember that we live
in a world completely changed by death, sin and suffering. We see
death all the time, it is incredibly hard (if not impossible) to
imagine a world without any death, especially since that is something
we have never experienced. Another thing we have to remember is
God's sustaining power. Before sin, God had created everything
'very good'. However, once sin entered the world He no longer
sustained creation in its perfect state. He still sustains His
creation (Col. 1:17), but no longer sustains it in perfect condition.
An example of God's sustaining power is when the Israelites were
wandering through the wilderness for forty years their "clothing did
not wear out and their feet did not swell" (Deut. 8:4; 29:5).
God's sustaining power explains why there were no "accidental
deaths" before the fall. So as part of the curse God withdrew some
of His sustaining power, hence then allowing death to enter His
creation.

Which animals in the sea are considered "living" [nephesh chayyah]
biblically?

By today's scientific definition, squid, octopuses and other
invertebrate sea creatures (mollusks, cephalopods, crustaceans, etc.)
are considered living creatures. But are they biblically defined as
"living creatures"? We can shed some light on this subject and
possibly define "living" sea creatures and "nonliving" sea
creatures based on Scripture.

Are there any "living creatures" in the sea?

>From Genesis 1:20-22, we find there were indeed living creatures in the
sea. The term for living creature is nephesh chay(yah):

02416 yx chay

Alive, live living, raw (flesh)

05315. vpn nephesh

Soul, life, living being, creature

These are used in Genesis 1:20-22 so we should expect to find living
creatures in the sea that can die or be killed.

>From a cursory glance at the Scriptures, we find that fish (Exodus
7:21) and large sea creatures like leviathan can die (Isaiah 27:1),
hence alive.

Defining life closely

There are two key components to defining "life" by the Bible.
Obviously, the first is nephesh chayyah, and is mimicked with land
animals as well as man. However with man it is often translated as
living soul, as opposed to creature. This is still different from being
made in the image of God which makes man distinctly different from
animals.

The next factor is revealed in Genesis 9.

Genesis 9:3-4

"Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to
you, as I gave the green plant. "Only you shall not eat flesh with its
life, that is, its blood.

This verse indicates that life is in the blood. This is confirmed in
Leviticus and Deuteronomy as well:

Leviticus 17:13-14

"Whatever man of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell
among you, who hunts and catches any animal or bird that may be eaten,
he shall pour out its blood and cover it with dust; "for it is the life
of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life. Therefore I said to the
children of Israel, 'You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for
the life of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut
off.'

Deuteronomy 12:23

"Only be sure not to eat the blood, for the blood is the life, and you
shall not eat the life with the flesh.

The Hebrew word for red blood is 01818. Md dam dawm. It is a variation
of the Hebrew word Adam which means "man" or "red". This goes
back to God breathing life into the man He created from dust in Genesis
1 and 2. God breathed life (blood) into Adam and he appeared with the
reddish color in the face due to the blood - hence the name
"Adam" for the first man.

0119. Mda 'adam aw-dam'; to show blood (in the face), i.e. flush or
turn rosy:- be (dyed, made) red (ruddy).

Why is this significant?

We know that a creature that is considered alive contains blood. Fish
are considered living creatures (nephesh chayyâh) according to the
Bible. But octopuses and squid also have a type of blood; couldn't
they be considered "living creatures" as well, like fish?

Fish have red blood which is what makes them a "living creature".
However, octopuses and squid (and other such sea creatures, or
invertebrates) have blue blood. This may be significant. What makes the
blood red or blue?

A human's (or animal's) blood needs to be able to carry oxygen to
the different parts of the body. This is done by red blood cells in
humans and animals that contain hemoglobin. Hemoglobin is a red pigment
contained in the red blood cells which is why our blood is red.
Hemoglobin is essential for the life of an animal since it has heme
which contain iron ions. The iron in each heme group binds to and
transports oxygen.1 It is also interesting to note that heme (or haem)
comes from the Latin-Greek root for "blood". And in the Greek text
of the New Testament the Greek word for "blood" is aima haima
hah'-ee-mah.

Octopuses and most invertebrate creatures like most mollusks, and some
arthropods, have blood that contains hemocyanins that are used to carry
oxygen. These hemocyanins are metalloproteins that have a similar
function to hemoglobin in that they carry oxygen through the blood. But
instead of containing iron, like the hemoglobin, hemocyanin contains
two copper atoms that reversibly bind a single oxygen molecule. When
the copper atoms are not carrying oxygen they are colorless, however
when the copper is carrying oxygen it becomes blue. Also, the
hemocyanin is dissolved in the plasma instead of being bound in red
blood cells, like hemoglobin. So when these copper atoms in the
hemocyanin carry oxygen it gives the blood of invertebrates its blue
color.2,3

Other oxygen binding proteins in the blood of invertebrates include
hemerythrin and pinnaglobin. Hemerythrin contains iron in a non-heme
protein and appears pink/violet when oxygenated and clear when not.
Pinnaglobin is a manganese based porphyrin protein that appears brown.

Let's go back to Genesis 1

Let's go back to the creation of sea creatures in Genesis 1 and look
at it closely. I'm including some of the Hebrew words in the passages
without translation:

Genesis 1:20-21

Then God said, "Let the waters teem (08318 Urv sherets)( 02416 yx
chay)( 05315. vpn nephesh), and let birds fly above the earth in the
open expanse of the heavens." God created the great sea monsters and
every (02416 yx chay)( 05315. vpn nephesh)( 07430. smr ramas), with
which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after
its kind; and God saw that it was good.

08318 Urv sherets

Teeming or swarming things, creepers, swarmers, insects, animals, small
reptiles, quadrupeds

02416 yx chay

Alive, live living, raw (flesh)

05315. vpn nephesh

Soul, life, living being, creature

07430. smr ramas

Creep, move teem, swarm,

Translations of these verses sometimes read: "living creatures that
move" or "living and moving creatures". The translation that
makes more sense says "living and moving creatures" as it indicates
there are living and non living creatures in the sea. Perhaps a more
appropriate translation (that would also be easier to understand) could
read:

And God said, "Let the waters teem with swarming things and living
creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the
heavens." So God created the great sea monsters and every living and
moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and
every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Further support for this comes from Leviticus 11:10.

Leviticus 11:10

"And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the
rivers, of all that move <08318> (sherets-swarming things) in the
waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall
be] an abomination unto you."

Arthur Jones even concluded in the CRSQ in 1973 that invertebrates were
not life because they didn't contain flesh (which is what blood
supplies the life to)4:

"All the animals taken on the Ark are described as basar,
"flesh." This term (when used of

whole living animals rather than simply the animals body) is never used
of invertebrate animals."

Conclusion

Many scientists make the distinction that vertebrates have hemoglobin,
hence red blood, and invertebrates contain other oxygen transporting
proteins, like hemocyanins, and do not have red blood. As far as
we've researched at this time, all vertebrates have hemoglobin and
invertebrates do not, though there may be exceptions we are not aware
of.

So, animals that contain hemoglobin (vertebrates) and therefore have
red blood can be considered "living" and animals that contain
hemocyanin, or other proteins (invertebrates) and therefore have blue
(pink/violet or brown) blood can be considered "nonliving". This is
further supported by Scripture since the Hebrew for "blood" (dawm)
is derived from the Hebrew for "red" (aw-dam). And with Genesis
1:20-22 and Leviticus 11:10, there is a distinction between
"living" creatures and "swarming/moving" creatures that teem in
the waters. So the logical conclusion can be made that a "living"
creature is one that contains red blood.

References

1 Mader, Sylvia S. Chapter 13 Cardiovascular System. Inquiry into Life:
10th Edition. McGraw-Hill, New York 2003: p.250.

2 James R. Redmond (dept. of Zoology, UCLA); "The Respiratory Function
of Hemocyanin in Crustacea", Journal of Cellular and Comparative
Physiology 46 (October 1955):209-242. Reprinted in Bradley T. Sheer,
ed.; Comparative Physiology: A Book of Readings; (Wm. C. Brown Company
Publishers, Dubuque, Iowa; 1968), pp. 162-194.

3 P. J. Mill (Dr., Lecturer in Zoology, The University of Leeds);
Respiration in the Invertebrates; (Macmillan, St, Martins' Press, N.
Y.; 1972).

4 Arthur J. Jones; How many animals on the Ark?; Creation Research
Society Quarterly; Volume 10; September 1973; Page 103


Bob D

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Mar 21, 2006, 2:08:09 PM3/21/06
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rev.goetz wrote:

> So, animals that contain hemoglobin (vertebrates) and therefore have
> red blood can be considered "living" and animals that contain
> hemocyanin, or other proteins (invertebrates) and therefore have blue
> (pink/violet or brown) blood can be considered "nonliving". This is
> further supported by Scripture since the Hebrew for "blood" (dawm)
> is derived from the Hebrew for "red" (aw-dam). And with Genesis
> 1:20-22 and Leviticus 11:10, there is a distinction between
> "living" creatures and "swarming/moving" creatures that teem in
> the waters. So the logical conclusion can be made that a "living"
> creature is one that contains red blood.

So *that* is what lions, tigers and all those other pesky carnivores
ate in that blessed garden. Dead/non-living animals.

Also this does make a bit more room in that ark. No need for anything
other than vertebrates. Wonder what type of blood all those carnivorous
dinosaurs had, and how *they* managed to get hold of enough shell fish
to eat. Or maybe they made do with beetles and ants 'n stuff. Pity
about those big teeth though.

rev.goetz

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Mar 21, 2006, 2:25:55 PM3/21/06
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Well, AiG claims that lions and tigers (oh my) were vegetarians before
the first human sin.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/bad_things.asp

coaster

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Mar 21, 2006, 3:05:25 PM3/21/06
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(snip)

> So, animals that contain hemoglobin (vertebrates) and therefore have
> red blood can be considered "living" and animals that contain
> hemocyanin, or other proteins (invertebrates) and therefore have blue
> (pink/violet or brown) blood can be considered "nonliving". This is
> further supported by Scripture since the Hebrew for "blood" (dawm)
> is derived from the Hebrew for "red" (aw-dam). And with Genesis
> 1:20-22 and Leviticus 11:10, there is a distinction between
> "living" creatures and "swarming/moving" creatures that teem in
> the waters. So the logical conclusion can be made that a "living"
> creature is one that contains red blood.
(snip)

*cough*giant tube worms*cough*.

Pardon me I had something caught in my throat. Oh God! It was a giant
tube worm!

Sla#s

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Mar 21, 2006, 3:35:46 PM3/21/06
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"rev.goetz" <jimgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142969155.4...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
<SNIP>>

> Well, AiG claims that lions and tigers (oh my) were vegetarians before
> the first human sin.

We had someone come to the door saying, "wouldn't you like to live in a
world where the lamb could lay down with the lion" our answer obviously was,
"what would the lion eat?"
Their answer was that during WWII the lions in London zoo were fed on straw!
That was a lie. (Gosh what a surprise. Why do these Christians keep doing
this?)
It's a lie because all the dangerous animals were moved from London Zoo to
Whipsnade zoo. Well someone figured it out, what if a bomb knocked down the
wall of the tiger enclosure? The air raid wardens had enough to worry about
without that complication!

Slatts

slothrop

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Mar 21, 2006, 4:18:52 PM3/21/06
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<Well, AiG claims that lions and tigers (oh my) were vegetarians before

<the first human sin.

<http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/bad_things.asp


Oh my God, has everyone read this???

I'm reminded of one of Michael Shermer's answers to the question "Why
do smart people believe in stupid things?" One answer is that they're
smart enough to rationalize their way into beliefs that your average
bear can't. I don't think this fact is appreciated enough by people
arguing with creationists/fundies. There is some thoughtful convoluting
going on in that AiG world...

slothrop

Desertphile

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Mar 21, 2006, 4:58:19 PM3/21/06
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rev.goetz wrote:

Christian mythology insists there was no such thing as death before
First Man and First Woman disobeyed the gods. Ergo "Answers on Genesis"
will tell you that sharks were once herbivorous. The gods gist made
sharks (and tigers, as Mark Twain pointed out) with meat-eating teeth
because the gods knew in advance that the First People would usher in
death.

Desertphile

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Mar 21, 2006, 4:58:29 PM3/21/06
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rev.goetz wrote:

Christian mythology insists there was no such thing as death before


First Man and First Woman disobeyed the gods. Ergo "Answers on Genesis"

will tell you that sharks were once herbivorous. The gods just made

neverbetter

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Mar 21, 2006, 6:22:57 PM3/21/06
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rev.goetz wrote:

> We know that a creature that is considered alive contains blood. Fish
> are considered living creatures (nephesh chayyâh) according to the
> Bible.

I want to know how the animals that ate plankton before the Fall
avoided ever eating any tiny fish eggs or larvae by accident. How did
they sieve them out?


Dave

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Mar 21, 2006, 6:34:50 PM3/21/06
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Why are there so many omnivorous Christians out there then. Wouldn't it
be more Adamesque to be a crazy vegan?

Kelsey Bjarnason

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Mar 21, 2006, 7:08:37 PM3/21/06
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[snips]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:58:29 -0800, Desertphile wrote:

> Christian mythology insists there was no such thing as death before
> First Man and First Woman disobeyed the gods. Ergo "Answers on Genesis"
> will tell you that sharks were once herbivorous.

Not just herbivorous, but very cautious herbivores, too. Last I checked,
it was actually rather easy to kill a plant by eating too much of it.


Greg G.

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Mar 21, 2006, 9:31:46 PM3/21/06
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Dinosaurs didn't have red blood, so they could eat each other. That's
why Noah didn't have them on the ark, either. Lions and tigers and
bears, oh my, could eat the small dinosaurs. And don't forget how big
the dragonflies were. Quite a meal! The giant chocolate covered ants
were so tasty, none went to waste as fossils.

--
Greg G.

What's all this about hellfire and dalmatians?

Bob D

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Mar 22, 2006, 2:22:33 AM3/22/06
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slothrop wrote:

> <http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/bad_things.asp
>
>
> Oh my God, has everyone read this???

> slothrop

An amazing piece of writing. Every Fundamental Christian should be
forced to read it. Their churches will empty in a weekend. (Hmm. Why
don't I believe what I just wrote).

The Last Conformist

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Mar 22, 2006, 5:48:46 AM3/22/06
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rev.goetz wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
> > "rev.goetz" <jimgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:1142951209.1...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
> > >I asked the follow question to AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino:
> > >
> > > Could a shark have eaten an octopus before the first human sin?
> > >
> > > Would any of the TO fans of AiG answer this question before I get
> > > answers from AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino?
> >
> > I think the stock answer is that there was no death before The Fall.
> > If octopi be considered alive and being consumed by a shark would
> > have resulted in death, then the answer would have to be no.
>
> Well, Geoff, AiG already told me that octopus are not alive.

[snip AiG reply]

If this Biblical concept of "alive" excludes octopods, surely
translating it as "alive" is simply wrong?

Nosterill

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Mar 22, 2006, 7:36:43 AM3/22/06
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So they must have been fruitarians, and only eaten the fruit and nuts
without killing the plant. If they had done that then it would also
have involved eating fertilised seeds......OMG! The first abortionists!!

Von R. Smith

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Mar 22, 2006, 8:06:08 AM3/22/06
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What a fantastic display of hermeneutic ducking and weaving. I suppose
that means, on the other hand, that invertebrates never ate any fish
before the fall.


Message has been deleted

Geoff

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Mar 22, 2006, 8:37:51 AM3/22/06
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"rev.goetz" <jimgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1142967101.6...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...

>
> Geoff wrote:
>> "rev.goetz" <jimgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142951209.1...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>> >I asked the follow question to AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino:
>> >
>> > Could a shark have eaten an octopus before the first human sin?
>> >
>> > Would any of the TO fans of AiG answer this question before I get
>> > answers from AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino?
>>
>> I think the stock answer is that there was no death before The Fall.
>> If octopi be considered alive and being consumed by a shark would
>> have resulted in death, then the answer would have to be no.
>
> Well, Geoff, AiG already told me that octopus are not alive.

Which, of course, is why I added the conditional "if octopi be
considered alive". I knew that AiG and other creationists employ
some pretty crazy rationalizations when bending science to fit
Genesis.

Take note, Matt Silberstein. Tell me these aren't mental contortions.


SeppoP

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Mar 22, 2006, 8:47:10 AM3/22/06
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rev.goetz wrote:
> Geoff wrote:
>> "rev.goetz" <jimgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142951209.1...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>>> I asked the follow question to AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino:
>>>
>>> Could a shark have eaten an octopus before the first human sin?
>>>
>>> Would any of the TO fans of AiG answer this question before I get
>>> answers from AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino?
>> I think the stock answer is that there was no death before The Fall.
>> If octopi be considered alive and being consumed by a shark would
>> have resulted in death, then the answer would have to be no.
>
> Well, Geoff, AiG already told me that octopus are not alive.
>
> Dear Rev. Goetz,
>

<snip>

>
> We know that a creature that is considered alive contains blood. Fish
> are considered living creatures (nephesh chayyâh) according to the
> Bible. But octopuses and squid also have a type of blood; couldn't
> they be considered "living creatures" as well, like fish?
>
> Fish have red blood which is what makes them a "living creature".
> However, octopuses and squid (and other such sea creatures, or
> invertebrates) have blue blood. This may be significant. What makes the
> blood red or blue?


Interesting bit of creationist science.

Apparently this means that those fish that do not have hemoglobin in their blood (family of Ice fish fond around the
Antarctica) are not alive? (Maybe they are just undead?) Could you verify this from the esteemed scientists at AIG?

--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)

Wakboth

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Mar 22, 2006, 9:10:31 AM3/22/06
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Nosterill kirjoitti:

> Kelsey Bjarnason wrote:
> > [snips]
> >
> > On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 13:58:29 -0800, Desertphile wrote:
> >
> > > Christian mythology insists there was no such thing as death before
> > > First Man and First Woman disobeyed the gods. Ergo "Answers on Genesis"
> > > will tell you that sharks were once herbivorous.
> >
> > Not just herbivorous, but very cautious herbivores, too. Last I checked,
> > it was actually rather easy to kill a plant by eating too much of it.
>
> So they must have been fruitarians, and only eaten the fruit and nuts
> without killing the plant.

That one didn't work, either. Look what happened when Eve tried the
apple...

-- Wakboth

Nosterill

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Mar 22, 2006, 10:40:38 AM3/22/06
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Good point. Maybe they lived on manna from heaven, whatever that is.

coaster

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Mar 22, 2006, 11:28:11 AM3/22/06
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Manna (or 'm' for short) are magical points which players in religious
hierarchies use to cast magical spells. A level 1 church-goer has
almost no manna. A level 47 priest may have 1000 - 2000m depending
upon the equipment he's wearing. The "Turin's Reignment" gear has a
+500m buff. It's good stuff but costs a mint! A level 60 Pope is
topped out at 6000m without buffs... like he needs them. I mean once
you can solo Satan the game is pretty much over, right?

Ye Old One

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Mar 22, 2006, 1:28:26 PM3/22/06
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On 22 Mar 2006 06:10:31 -0800, "Wakboth" <Wakbo...@yahoo.com>

What apple?

--
Bob.

Von R. Smith

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Mar 22, 2006, 1:42:50 PM3/22/06
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nmp wrote:

> Von R. Smith wrote:
>
>
> > What a fantastic display of hermeneutic ducking and weaving. I suppose
> > that means, on the other hand, that invertebrates never ate any fish
> > before the fall.
>
> Have you seen the little movie clip where an octopus grabs a shark and
> eats it? Quite interesting ;)
>
> <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7004909622962894202>


That's freakin' cool. Thanks!

But of course, that proves nothing, since the video was taken *after*
the Fall, right? ;)

Mike Painter

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Mar 22, 2006, 1:47:53 PM3/22/06
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I have had a cartoon in mind for many years.
It shows a spider in a web. There are grapes with wings flying around and on
the ground below the web is a pile of raisons.

Von R. Smith

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Mar 22, 2006, 1:51:47 PM3/22/06
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Btw, any good, obvious examples of invertebrates that rely entirely, or
almost entirely, on killing vertebrates for food? I know some
cnidarians sting and eat a lot of fish, but is that the bulk of their
diet?

Tiny Bulcher

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Mar 22, 2006, 3:02:26 PM3/22/06
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There is a thing you wouldn't wish to find under your bed called a
Bird-Eating Spider (Theraphosa blondi), which rather sadly does not eat
birds very often, but does lunch regularly on frogs, lizards and indeed
anything it can lay its fangs on. I saw one at the zoo once, as a young
an impressionable child, and it scared the crap out of me.

Tiny, arachnophobe

Message has been deleted

Dana Tweedy

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Mar 22, 2006, 3:35:02 PM3/22/06
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"Von R. Smith" <trak...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1143053507.3...@e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
snip

>
> Btw, any good, obvious examples of invertebrates that rely entirely, or
> almost entirely, on killing vertebrates for food? I know some
> cnidarians sting and eat a lot of fish, but is that the bulk of their
> diet?

The Giant Squid eats fish, and apparently attacks prey as large as a sperm
whale. See:
http://unmuseum.mus.pa.us/squid.htm

DJT

>

Message has been deleted

The Last Conformist

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Mar 22, 2006, 3:52:47 PM3/22/06
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Considering the relative sizes, I'm pretty doubtful about their
suggestion that giant squid would attack sperm whales rather than the
other way round.

Tiny Bulcher

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Mar 22, 2006, 3:56:48 PM3/22/06
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Good grief, how did I forget old Architeuthis? I did a talk on him not
long ago. Fascinating creatures. But you are I think incorrect in
saying they prey on sperm whales. 'Tis the other way about. (Bet they
put up a hell of a fight, mind).

Tiny

Message has been deleted

Tiny Bulcher

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Mar 22, 2006, 4:58:19 PM3/22/06
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nmp wrote:
> What if these two species prey on *each other*?

Hmm. Can't see those whales diving all that way down just for a fight.

> Does any such predator-predator relationship exist in the natural world?
>
> I guess not but it would be very interesting, natural selection-wise.

There may be examples of creatures preying on each others
young/eggs/dead, but I shouldn't think it would happen otherwise.
Trying to eat something that is also capable of eating you doesn't seem
like much of a survival strategy.

Tiny

Rich Townsend

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Mar 22, 2006, 5:06:19 PM3/22/06
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A colleague of mine used to work up in the mountains of Papua New Guinea, in a
hill-tribe village. He tells me that there was a preying mantis that lived on
his window sill, that would catch and eat lizards.

Then, of course, there's the bird-eating spiders...

cheers,

Rich

neverbetter

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Mar 22, 2006, 5:19:22 PM3/22/06
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Nah, there's no haemoglobin in plants, so they aren't alive and can't
be killed. However, if their genes were manipulated and someone
inserted a haemoglobin gene in their genomes they would become living
creatures.

Message has been deleted

Windy

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Mar 22, 2006, 6:23:39 PM3/22/06
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nmp wrote:

> Tiny Bulcher wrote:
> >> The Last Conformist wrote:
> >> > Considering the relative sizes, I'm pretty doubtful about their
> >> > suggestion that giant squid would attack sperm whales rather than the
> >> > other way round.
> >>
> >> What if these two species prey on *each other*?
> >
> > Hmm. Can't see those whales diving all that way down just for a fight.

No, they dive for dinner :) But I agree that it would make most sense
if sperm whales attack giant squid first, and then the squid fight
back.

> Good point. And they are diving for squid, right? Not for octopuses.
>
> I would like to see what they do down there.

Definitely. But it is squid and not octopus that is suspected to
grapple with sperm whales. Although octopuses are catching up in size:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1898313.stm

> > There may be examples of creatures preying on each others
> > young/eggs/dead, but I shouldn't think it would happen otherwise.
> > Trying to eat something that is also capable of eating you doesn't seem
> > like much of a survival strategy.
>

> But that is why it would be interesting. A real arms race, that would lead
> to very rapid evolution. That, or extinction of either species :)

Why not? Fish do it all the time. But ok, normally the eatee has to be
slightly smaller, so maybe it would go in the "eating the young"
category. And humans can eat bears and vice versa.

If both species would exclusively eat each other, that might be
problematic from the arms race point of view, but more important IMO is
that the energy conversion from prey to predator in the food chain is
not that efficient. If sperm whales and giant squid would suddenly
start eating only each other, the food web would not be getting any new
energy and both species would inevitably die out.

-- w

AC

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Mar 22, 2006, 6:55:14 PM3/22/06
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On 21 Mar 2006 10:51:41 -0800,
rev.goetz <jimgo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Geoff wrote:
>> "rev.goetz" <jimgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1142951209.1...@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>> >I asked the follow question to AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino:
>> >
>> > Could a shark have eaten an octopus before the first human sin?
>> >
>> > Would any of the TO fans of AiG answer this question before I get
>> > answers from AiG and ICR and Dr. Dino?
>>
>> I think the stock answer is that there was no death before The Fall.
>> If octopi be considered alive and being consumed by a shark would
>> have resulted in death, then the answer would have to be no.
>
> Well, Geoff, AiG already told me that octopus are not alive.
>
> Dear Rev. Goetz,
>
> Thank you for contacting Answers in Genesis. I apologize that it has
> taken me so long to respond as we have been quite busy. I'm glad
> that you asked the question about octopuses and squid. Attached is an
> article about what animals can be considered "living" and
> "nonliving" based on a biblical definition. Octopuses and even
> giant squid could be considered "nonliving" creatures and the
> article will explain why.

This is the sort of pure bullshit explanation that, if they were giving it
to you in person, they would immediately go "Oh, look, it's my sister's best
friend. Susan!!!! Susan!!!! Wait for me!!!!!!!!"

<snip the unbearably stupid>


--
Aaron Clausen
mightym...@hotmail.com

pzm...@gmail.com

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Mar 22, 2006, 7:28:31 PM3/22/06