The evil creationist rides again!
Josiah Koniecki
I just had an interesting weekend. Once again, I went out to the wild, wild
woods for more training with the Corps. We all had a good time. We did
range practice with the M203 Grenade launcher, went on a terrible march
(spur of the moment), fired thousands (and thousands and thousands ad
nauseum) of rounds on the M240 Gulf's we carried along with us, and
conducted a night attack to end the day on a high note. A lot of fun! At
one point in the night training, some mortar men shot flares in our
direction (I guess that they didn't like us, or they didn't know that we
were there, whatever) and nearly set the whole woods on fire. Our machine
gun section had to run get our e-tools so we could could put out the growing
bonfire. I never did like Mortar men very much.
So, what did you guys do on your weekend?
Okay, down to business. If you have been reading my past postings (I highly
suggest you do before you comment on this one) you know that I left the
debate on beneficial genetic mutations in individuals for further research.
I promised that I would continue in that debate when I returned from my
weekend, so here I am.
So, the big question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the mutation
in Italy is a good genetic mutation, then how would mutations of this nature
account for transitions between the discrete steps in the Eltonian Pyramid?
If anyone reading this is unclear about what the Eltonian Pyramid is, please
be sure to e-mail me, and I will be happy to respond to you.
Toodles,
Josiah
P.S.
I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
If anyone thinks that I am ignorant, just start talking about gun
terminology, deployment, or methods of improving defensive parameters, and I
will be happy to talk your ears off.
Gyudon Z
>Good afternoon, gents!
<snip the business>
>Okay, down to business. If you have been reading my past postings (I highly
>suggest you do before you comment on this one) you know that I left the
>debate on beneficial genetic mutations in individuals for further research.
>I promised that I would continue in that debate when I returned from my
>weekend, so here I am.
>So, the big question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the mutation
>in Italy is a good genetic mutation, then how would mutations of this nature
>account for transitions between the discrete steps in the Eltonian
Pyramid?<snip>
My memory serves me correctly if the Eltonian pyramid is something to do with
food chains and the pyramid of producers and primary, secondary, and tertiary
consumers (the availability of usable goes down by a factor of ten going across
each).
I imagine that an enzyme or morphological structure that makes a different form
of food available, or even a symbiotic relationship combining the lot of them
(i.e. the digestive system of a cow) has a great deal to do with an organism
being slated as a primary, secondary, or tertiary consumer, but I see little
reason why they would move up or down the pyramid (although there isn't
technically any manner of direction involved in the pyramid any more than there
is in evolution), excepting, of course, scavengers, which do tend to transcend
secondary, tertiary, and quaternary consumer as circumstances dictate.
Organisms have shown themselves to be very good at adapting to what manner of
nutrients are in their environment (the chemioautotrophs around the deep-sea
volcanic vents come to mind).
>P.S.
>I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
>hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
>If anyone thinks that I am ignorant, just start talking about gun
>terminology, deployment, or methods of improving defensive parameters, and I
>will be happy to talk your ears off.
We call you ignorant on your knowledge of biology (and occasionally physics as
relating to the second law of thermodynamics). Whatever you know on military
matters are of no concern to us.
"Between true science and erroneous doctrines, ignorance is in the middle."
Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan
Andy Groves
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>
> P.S.
> I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
> hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
> If anyone thinks that I am ignorant, just start talking about gun
> terminology, deployment, or methods of improving defensive parameters, and I
> will be happy to talk your ears off.
>
Better than blowing our butts off........
Armed creationists. Whatever next?
--
Andy Groves
Donate free food at The Hunger Site -
http://www.thehungersite.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tweedyd
Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote in message
news:8nseq3$6m5$1...@galileo.ticon.net...
snip of pointless macho posturing
> Okay, down to business. If you have been reading my past postings (I
highly
> suggest you do before you comment on this one) you know that I left the
> debate on beneficial genetic mutations in individuals for further
research.
> I promised that I would continue in that debate when I returned from my
> weekend, so here I am.
> So, the big question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the
mutation
> in Italy is a good genetic mutation, then how would mutations of this
nature
> account for transitions between the discrete steps in the Eltonian
Pyramid?
> If anyone reading this is unclear about what the Eltonian Pyramid is,
please
> be sure to e-mail me, and I will be happy to respond to you.
The Eltonian Pyramid refers to Predator/prey relationships in a ecosystem.
to whit:
Pyramid of Numbers (Eltonian Pyramid, Food Pyramid)
A graphic representation of the food chain which indicates the large numbers
of producer organisms (i.e., plants) at the base of the food chain, and the
progressively decreasing numbers of herbivores (plant eaters) and carnivores
(meat eaters) higher up in the food chain. Elton's concept was that in most
food chains the number of individuals decreases in each succeeding stage,
with large numbers of animals occurring at the base and a few large ones at
the top.
the above is copied from:
http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/rhgiles/appendices/glossp.htm
What this has to do with a mutation that protects humans from heart disease
is anyone's guess.
>
> Toodles,
> Josiah
>
> P.S.
> I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range,
and
> hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
> If anyone thinks that I am ignorant, just start talking about gun
> terminology, deployment, or methods of improving defensive parameters, and
I
> will be happy to talk your ears off.
I don't doubt you are proficient at pistol shooting, and know a lot about
guns. This does not translate into knowing anything about science. I
submit you are profoundly ignorant when it comes to current scientific
theories.
--
Dana J. Tweedy
superstitione tollenda religio non tollitur
Dave Horn
news:8nsi8u$973q0$1...@ID-35161.news.cis.dfn.de...
>
> Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote in message
> news:8nseq3$6m5$1...@galileo.ticon.net...
>
> snip of pointless macho posturing
Thanks. It was quite nauseating.
> > Okay, down to business. If you have been reading my
> > past postings (I highly suggest you do before you comment
> > on this one) you know that I left the debate on beneficial
> > genetic mutations in individuals for further research.
Translation: I didn't know what the hell I was yammering about and it
became patently obvious as I did a "Sir Robin" and "bravely ran away" from
challenges with respect to it.
> > I promised that I would continue in that debate when I
> > returned from my weekend, so here I am. So, the big
> > question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the
> > mutation in Italy is a good genetic mutation, then how
> > would mutations of this nature account for transitions
> > between the discrete steps in the Eltonian Pyramid?
What I'm noticing about this is that it's clear that the original challenge
has been met.
> > If anyone reading this is unclear about what the
> > Eltonian Pyramid is, please be sure to e-mail me,
> > and I will be happy to respond to you.
Why in email?
> The Eltonian Pyramid refers to Predator/prey relationships
> in a ecosystem. to whit:
>
> Pyramid of Numbers (Eltonian Pyramid, Food Pyramid)
> A graphic representation of the food chain which indicates
> the large numbers of producer organisms (i.e., plants) at the
> base of the food chain, and the progressively decreasing
> numbers of herbivores (plant eaters) and carnivores (meat
> eaters) higher up in the food chain. Elton's concept was
> that in most food chains the number of individuals decreases
> in each succeeding stage, with large numbers of animals
> occurring at the base and a few large ones at the top.
>
> the above is copied from:
> http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/rhgiles/appendices/glossp.htm
Yep...and its elementary biology.
That's what's so amusing about such a know-it-all. Wandering into a
newsgroup like this one as if he's got some new or earth-shattering
information to dispense.
Josiah, ever get around to getting those genetics references and "The
Biological Basis for Cancer?"
> What this has to do with a mutation that protects humans
> from heart disease is anyone's guess.
It doesn't. He's a juvenile jarhead trying to impress with jargon.
> > P.S.
> > I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine
> > gun range, and hopefuly will be able to do the same thing
> > at the rifle range next month.
DFC - I was a weapons expert before you were an itch in your daddy's pants,
Josiah, and no doubt there are some who did it before me. It's entirely
irrelevant.
> > If anyone thinks that I am ignorant, just start talking about
> > gun terminology, deployment, or methods of improving
> > defensive parameters, and I will be happy to talk your
> > ears off.
>
> I don't doubt you are proficient at pistol shooting, and know
> a lot about guns. This does not translate into knowing
> anything about science. I submit you are profoundly ignorant
> when it comes to current scientific theories.
You beat me to it, Dana.
Gyudon Z
>Date: 8/21/00 5:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8nsi8u$973q0$1...@ID-35161.news.cis.dfn.de>
>
>
>Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote in message
>news:8nseq3$6m5$1...@galileo.ticon.net...
>
>
>snip of pointless macho posturing
>
>
>> Okay, down to business. If you have been reading my past postings (I
>highly
>> suggest you do before you comment on this one) you know that I left the
>> debate on beneficial genetic mutations in individuals for further
>research.
>> I promised that I would continue in that debate when I returned from my
>> weekend, so here I am.
>> So, the big question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the
>mutation
>> in Italy is a good genetic mutation, then how would mutations of this
>nature
>> account for transitions between the discrete steps in the Eltonian
>Pyramid?
>> If anyone reading this is unclear about what the Eltonian Pyramid is,
>please
>> be sure to e-mail me, and I will be happy to respond to you.
>
>
>The Eltonian Pyramid refers to Predator/prey relationships in a ecosystem.
>to whit:
>
>Pyramid of Numbers (Eltonian Pyramid, Food Pyramid)
>A graphic representation of the food chain which indicates the large numbers
>of producer organisms (i.e., plants) at the base of the food chain, and the
>progressively decreasing numbers of herbivores (plant eaters) and carnivores
>(meat eaters) higher up in the food chain. Elton's concept was that in most
>food chains the number of individuals decreases in each succeeding stage,
>with large numbers of animals occurring at the base and a few large ones at
>the top.
>
>the above is copied from:
>http://fwie.fw.vt.edu/rhgiles/appendices/glossp.htm
>What this has to do with a mutation that protects humans from heart disease
>is anyone's guess.
I believe it is the standard Josiah Koniecki movage of the goalposts. At least
this time he acknowledged that the anti-cholesterol mutation was beneficial
(usually he doesn't admit that his "challenges" are answered).
<snip remainder>
Laurence A. Moran
[snip]
>I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
>hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
Larry Moran
Landis D. Ragon
>Good afternoon, gents!
>I just had an interesting weekend. Once again, I went out to the wild, wild
>woods for more training with the Corps. We all had a good time. We did
>range practice with the M203 Grenade launcher, went on a terrible march
>(spur of the moment), fired thousands (and thousands and thousands ad
>nauseum) of rounds on the M240 Gulf's we carried along with us, and
>conducted a night attack to end the day on a high note. A lot of fun! At
>one point in the night training, some mortar men shot flares in our
>direction (I guess that they didn't like us, or they didn't know that we
>were there, whatever) and nearly set the whole woods on fire. Our machine
>gun section had to run get our e-tools so we could could put out the growing
>bonfire. I never did like Mortar men very much.
>So, what did you guys do on your weekend?
>Okay, down to business. If you have been reading my past postings (I highly
>suggest you do before you comment on this one) you know that I left the
>debate on beneficial genetic mutations in individuals for further research.
>I promised that I would continue in that debate when I returned from my
>weekend, so here I am.
>So, the big question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the mutation
>in Italy is a good genetic mutation, then how would mutations of this nature
>account for transitions between the discrete steps in the Eltonian Pyramid?
>If anyone reading this is unclear about what the Eltonian Pyramid is, please
>be sure to e-mail me, and I will be happy to respond to you.
Is anyone else reminded of "Dman", the guy who posted here about 2
years ago or so and insisted that Earth was the fixed, unmoving center
of the universe?
>
>Toodles,
>Josiah
>
>P.S.
>I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
>hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
>If anyone thinks that I am ignorant, just start talking about gun
>terminology, deployment, or methods of improving defensive parameters, and I
>will be happy to talk your ears off.
>
--
Landis Ragon (dS = dq/T)
Chief Elf in the Toy Factory.
"I've got a little list--I've got a little list
Of society offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed--who never would be missed!"
-- Gilbert and Sullivan : "The Mikado"
Josiah Koniecki
you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based on REAL
physical constraints, not on absence of fossil evidence. The gaps between
levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
without being endangered itself. Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents. Natural selection
works AGAINST evolution in this case!
So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
Toodles,
Josiah
P.S.
Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons expert at 19, a little PFC.
I can outshoot most of my instructors, and beat almost all of them at
D/A'ing. Technically, all you have to do to become a "weapons expert" is
achieve a certain grade, job specialty, and base of knowledge in training.
What I have is a workable knowledge of gunnery equipement, because I have to
know what to do in the field. There have been times in the field that I
have had to clean my rifle with toilet tissue, (from an MRE) and lube it up
with whatever slippery substance I could find, because we were not issued
enough supplies. That's knowledge that you can only gain by being a Corps
infantryman, which I highly doubt you were.
Just out of curiousity, how long were you in, and what was your grade, MOS,
and BOS?
R Bishop
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>Sorry gents,
>you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
>are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
>This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based on REAL
>physical constraints, not on absence of fossil evidence. The gaps between
>levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
>order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
>without being endangered itself. Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
>must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
Excuse me? You mean that you've not noticed that a lion is smaller than
an emu? Or a water buffalo? Or a zebra?
And you've never noticed a hawk can stoop on a duck that's twice its size?
>For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
>order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents. Natural selection
>works AGAINST evolution in this case!
Sigh, where did you learn this.....
>So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
>
??? What does that have to do with predation and prey?
Sue, wondering what Josiah is smoking
>Toodles,
>Josiah
>
>P.S.
>Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons expert at 19, a little PFC.
>I can outshoot most of my instructors, and beat almost all of them at
>D/A'ing. Technically, all you have to do to become a "weapons expert" is
>achieve a certain grade, job specialty, and base of knowledge in training.
>What I have is a workable knowledge of gunnery equipement, because I have to
>know what to do in the field. There have been times in the field that I
>have had to clean my rifle with toilet tissue, (from an MRE) and lube it up
>with whatever slippery substance I could find, because we were not issued
>enough supplies. That's knowledge that you can only gain by being a Corps
>infantryman, which I highly doubt you were.
>Just out of curiousity, how long were you in, and what was your grade, MOS,
>and BOS?
>
>
"Never trust anything that thinks for itself,
if you can't see where it keeps its brain."
J K Rowling
R Bishop
lam...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca (Laurence A. Moran) wrote:
>In article <8nseq3$6m5$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
>Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
>>hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
>
>Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
>
What's evident is, he's not only a Marine but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
>
>
>Larry Moran
>
>
>
Sue
wilkins
<bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Excuse me? You mean that you've not noticed that a lion is smaller than
> an emu? Or a water buffalo? Or a zebra?
There is a distinct lack of lions here in Australia and South East Asia,
where the emu and the water buffalo roam free... Perhaps you meant
ostriches and gnus (it's a gnu...)
--
John Wilkins, Head, Graphic Production, Hall Institute
<http://www.users.bigpond.com/thewilkins/darwiniana.html>
Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it.
Landis D. Ragon
>In article <8nsnfd$ut6$1...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca>,
> lam...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca (Laurence A. Moran) wrote:
>
>>In article <8nseq3$6m5$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
>>Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
>>>hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
>>
>>Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
>>
>
>What's evident is, he's not only a Marine but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
>
>Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
"Thinking with the wrong head."
KMT*
Josiah Koniecki wrote:
> Good afternoon, gents!
> <snip>
Not so much evil, as seriously misguided.
David Johnston
>
> Sorry gents,
> you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
> are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
> This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based on REAL
> physical constraints, not on absence of fossil evidence. The gaps between
> levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
> order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
Ah. Then clearly the Eltonian Pyramid is wrong. Wolves are not an order
of magnitude greater in size than a deer.
> without being endangered itself. Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
> must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
As a matter of fact, porcupines and skunks can repel substantially larger
predators with ease.
> For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
> order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents.
Your errors:
1. Predation is not the only force of selection.
2. Size is not the only variable in predation.
3. Even a slight increase in size can make a big difference in territorial
and mating contests.
4. Even a slight decrease in size can make a big difference in food requirements.
Have I missed anything?
Natural selection
> works AGAINST evolution in this case!
> So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
>
> Toodles,
> Josiah
>
> P.S.
> Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons expert at 19, a little PFC.
> I can outshoot most of my instructors, and beat almost all of them at
Why do you think that we care? Is this some sort of penis size issue?
Josiah Koniecki
> >>Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
> >>
> >
> >What's evident is, he's not only a Marine but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
> >
> >Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
>
> "Thinking with the wrong head."
1. I have good reason to be cocky, and yes, my youthful vitality is to be
envied.
2. Sue, gee whiz, you sound like a married lady with kids. Quit thinking
about the contents of my britches, as it is not very ladylike, and quite
beside the point.
3. Landis, we have a little policy about "don't ask, don't tell", so don't
join in conversations about the intelligence of my anatomy. Things like
this make my skin crall, and give me the urge for dry heaves.
Toodles,
Josiah
P.S.
Why should I have a problem with killing people? According to evolution,
humans are nothing more than super heated hydrogen gas which sat around for
a long time. Oh, wait a minute, are you implying that humans are DIFFERENT
from the rest of nature?
*GASP*!!!
I feel whoozy and faint...
I think another evolutionist is trying to see my side of an argument!
Goodness gracious!
*Whump*
Dave Horn
>
> Sorry gents...
That you are.
> you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid,
> namely that there are descrete levels in size of organisms
> separated by an order of magnitude.
Really? Always?
> This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based
> on REAL physical constraints, not on absence of fossil
> evidence.
And you would describe these restraints with specific examples, I take it?
Anyone can copy text from a book or web site. It's clear, however, that you
don't understand it.
> The gaps between levels are the result of predator/prey
> mechanics.
Explain the relationship in your own words.
> A predator must be an order of magnitude greator than
> the prey in order to capture and engulf it, without being
> endangered itself.
Generally. But is this always so? Ever see a lion take down a wildebeast?
> Conversely, herbavores (non predators) must be
> roughly the same size as the predator to avoid
> BEING eaten.
These are generalities. How do they relate to the subject matter?
> For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the
> offspring being in order of magnitude greater in size
> than it's parents.
You still aren't clear on what a mutation is, are you, or how they actually
work in evolution?
Did you ever get those genetics texts? I have mine ready.
> Natural selection works AGAINST evolution in this
> case!
Really? How so?
> So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
So much for you having a clue. Hah.
> Toodles,
> Josiah
>
> P.S.
> Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons
> expert at 19, a little PFC.
One, what you doubt is irrelevant. Facts do not change because some pimply,
self-important jarhead decides he doesn't want to believe them. Second, I
was never a PFC. Third, I said I was a weapons expert before you were an
itch in your daddy's pants. If you're only 19, I would first wonder why I'm
wasting my time with a clearly self-important ignoramus such as yourself - I
probably forgot more biology than you've ever bothered to learn. Second, I
would be curious as to where and when I indicated my age at the time of my
gained expertise
And what kind of marine says "toodles?"
> I can outshoot most of my instructors, and beat almost all
> of them at D/A'ing.
And the reason I should be impressed is...?
The reason this is relevant to discussions in this newsgroup are...?
You may be impressed with yourself, boy, but that doesn't mean those of us
who have been on the planet a bit longer really care.
> Technically, all you have to do to become a "weapons
> expert" is achieve a certain grade, job specialty, and
> base of knowledge in training.
That does sorta depend on a lot of things, doesn't it?
> What I have is a workable knowledge of gunnery
> equipement, because I have to know what to do in
> the field.
So do bears. Your point?
> There have been times in the field that I have had to
> clean my rifle with toilet tissue, (from an MRE) and
> lube it up with whatever slippery substance I could find,
> because we were not issued enough supplies.
Sounds like a pretty slipshod outfit to me.
Have you ever seen combat, son, or been in a war or military action against
a real, shooting enemy?
No?
Come back and talk to me when you have.
> That's knowledge that you can only gain by being
> a Corps infantryman, which I highly doubt you were.
This is *not* true. Get over your post-basic training oo-rah.
> Just out of curiousity, how long were you in, and
> what was your grade, MOS, and BOS?
I'm *still* in (reserve). I've been affiliated with the military in one
form or another longer than you've been alive. So don't presume to lecture
me, boy, and get back to the subject matter. Leave the military stories for
an appropriate newsgroup.
I suspect you're nothing but a "garet trooper," anyway.
No, I won't explain it. Go ask your sergeant major, and then come back and
stick to the subject.
Gyudon Z
>you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
>are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
I don't remember this being mentioned in the description of the Eltonian
pyramid that I read. From which description did you derive this?
Of course, considering your *impressive* record of citing your sources, I'm not
holding my breath for an answer.
>This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based on REAL
>physical constraints, not on absence of fossil evidence. The gaps between
>levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
>order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
>without being endangered itself.
Any python eating a juvenile antelope would probably disagree with you on that
point.
>Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
>must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
Any krill being eaten by a whale would probably disagree with you on *that*
point.
Apart from which, why couldn't the size of a predator and the size of its prey
increase along with one another. You know, the whole evolutionary arms race...
>For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
>order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents.
The beneficial mutation allowing bacteria to survive more and more antibiotics
doesn't change their sizes in the slightest.
>Natural selection
>works AGAINST evolution in this case!
>So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
You asked for a beneficial mutation in humans, and one was provided.
>Toodles,
>Josiah
<snip Josiah's puerile competition with Horn, but with a warning:>
Anyone familiar with the Flame Warriors site
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html
will recognize Horn as the group's resident Kung Fu Master. We do not recommend
engaging him in battle.
Dave Horn
> (Snip)
> > >>Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
> > >>
> > >
> > >What's evident is, he's not only a Marine but a
> > >YOUNG cocky Marine.
> > >
> > >Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
> >
> > "Thinking with the wrong head."
> (Snip)
>
Being stupid and arrogant is good reason to be cocky?
> ...and yes, my youthful vitality is to be envied.
Your youthful stupidity is not.
> 2. Sue, gee whiz, you sound like a married lady
> with kids. Quit thinking about the contents of my
> britches...
The only one really doing this - literally or figuratively - is you.
So tell me, Marine, when you wag yourself in this newsgroup this way, do you
use your right hand or your left hand?
> ...as it is not very ladylike, and quite beside the point.
"Beside the point?"
"Thou hypocrite, first take the beam from your own eye..."
Remember that one?
> 3. Landis, we have a little policy about "don't ask,
> don't tell", so don't join in conversations about the
> intelligence of my anatomy.
These are reasonable questions in context given the idiocy of your
ramblings.
> Things like this make my skin crall, and give me
> the urge for dry heaves.
Stupidity and overly macho, self-important ramblings by people who haven't
bothered to understand the things they presume to criticize do those things
for me.
> Toodles,
> Josiah
This can quickly become your pet name.
> P.S.
> Why should I have a problem with killing people?
Because they are living, sentient beings with feelings and are every bit as
important as you?
No, I guess that couldn't be it.
> According to evolution, humans are nothing more
> than super heated hydrogen gas which sat around for
> a long time
Wrong again.
> Oh, wait a minute, are you implying that humans
> are DIFFERENT from the rest of nature?
Where are you getting this?
Look up "straw man," boy, and quit drinking your gun oil.
> *GASP*!!!
> I feel whoozy and faint...
Try getting some air to whatever you're using for a brain.
> I think another evolutionist is trying to see my side
> of an argument!
You "think?"
Don't flatter yourself.
> Goodness gracious!
> *Whump*
Right hand or left hand?
Gyudon Z
>You [Josiah Koniecki] may be impressed with yourself, boy, but that doesn't
mean those of us
>who have been on the planet a bit longer really care.
On the behalf of those who've been on the planet as long or less, we don't
really care either.
Josiah Koniecki
Someone brought up an interesting argument, but I forget who it was. He
asked me how a loving, gracious, wise, and kind God could create such a
lethal machine of death as the shark. He also said not to bring up the "sin
caused it" argument, so I won't.
Compare this for a moment...
Let's say that there are 50 shark-related deaths per year (which I think is
an overstatement, sharks don't like the taste of human flesh). Gruesome,
yes, and it is a tragedy.
But...
What about all of the millions of unborn babies slaughtered each year in
hospitals?
What about the 6 million Jews exterminated by ruthless oppresion?
What about the untold millions of innocent people killed by communism? You
could pile their bodies six deep, like a wall, and encircle the globe!
What about all of the hundreds of millions killed in wars for such petty
matters as property ownership?
Gents, the question isn't why a loving, wonderful God created sharks, but
why this same God would create MAN. If you think about it, humans have done
few things of actual worth in this world. Most of our technological and
humanitarian advances have been made to save us from our own mistakes.
Animals, in my opinion, would do a much better job of ruling the world,
because they have such a basic understanding of everything around them that
they don't know HOW to mess anything up. Their only desires are to eat,
procreate, sleep, and nurture their young.
Why would God create something as warped as a human being? I believe it is
for loving companionship, but I don't think we are hardly worthy of such a
noble calling. Think of this, if God created you, He would
Love you for who you are, imperfections and all.
Know who you are inside, and still accept you as His own.
Forgive you of all the wrong things in your life, even the ones you still
want to hang on to.
Choose you, from among all other creation, to be His adopted child, who we
can call Abba, my Father.
Predestine you to sit with Him for all eternity at His side, forever knowing
and growing in Him, and finding what true love is.
That is what a loving, gracious, kind, and wonderful God would do for all of
us. If there was no such being as Him, I would certainly spend most of my
time wishing that there was one.
As ever,
Josiah
John Segerson
Josiah Koniecki wrote:
> For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
> order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents.
Balderdash!
John Segerson
Josiah Koniecki wrote:
>
> P.S.
> Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons expert at 19, a little PFC.
> I can outshoot most of my instructors, and beat almost all of them at
> D/A'ing. Technically, all you have to do to become a "weapons expert" is
> achieve a certain grade, job specialty, and base of knowledge in training.
> What I have is a workable knowledge of gunnery equipement, because I have to
> know what to do in the field. There have been times in the field that I
> have had to clean my rifle with toilet tissue, (from an MRE) and lube it up
> with whatever slippery substance I could find, because we were not issued
> enough supplies. That's knowledge that you can only gain by being a Corps
> infantryman, which I highly doubt you were.
> Just out of curiousity, how long were you in, and what was your grade, MOS,
> and BOS?
My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
Gyudon Z
[From Josiah "Toodles" Koniecki]
>>Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
>>must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
>
>Any krill being eaten by a whale would probably disagree with you on *that*
>point.
I suppose that should read "Any krill *not* being eaten by a whale..."
rich hammett
cholesterol molecules, no matter what scale you use!
rich
Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> is alleged to have said:
> Sorry gents,
> you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
> are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
> This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based on REAL
> physical constraints, not on absence of fossil evidence. The gaps between
> levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
> order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
> without being endangered itself. Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
> must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
> For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
> order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents. Natural selection
> works AGAINST evolution in this case!
> So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
> Toodles,
> Josiah
--
-remove no from mail name and spam from domain to reply
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
\ Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett
/ hnoa...@eng.spamauburn.edu
\ ..basketball [is] the paramount
/ synthesis in sport of intelligence, precision, courage,
\ audacity, anticipation, artifice, teamwork, elegance,
/ and grace. --Carl Sagan
wilkins
gyu...@aol.com (Gyudon Z) wrote:
> Anyone familiar with the Flame Warriors site
>
> http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html
>
> will recognize Horn as the group's resident Kung Fu Master. We do not
> recommend
> engaging him in battle.
Ouch! I wish *I* could sit like that and type... But then, I'm a
Profundis Maximus.
Gyudon Z
>Someone brought up an interesting argument, but I forget who it was. He
>asked me how a loving, gracious, wise, and kind God could create such a
>lethal machine of death as the shark.
I would ask about how an omnibenevolent god is willing to torture people for
eternity for the crime of witholding their saccharine adulation...
>He also said not to bring up the "sin
>caused it" argument, so I won't.
>Compare this for a moment...
>Let's say that there are 50 shark-related deaths per year (which I think is
>an overstatement, sharks don't like the taste of human flesh). Gruesome,
>yes, and it is a tragedy.
>But...
>What about all of the millions of unborn babies slaughtered each year in
>hospitals?
If they're unborn, they're not technically babies...
>What about the 6 million Jews exterminated by ruthless oppresion?
With the silence of the RCC...
>What about the untold millions of innocent people killed by communism?
Political ideologies, being entirely abstract nouns, never killed anyone.
>You
>could pile their bodies six deep, like a wall, and encircle the globe!
That's 137 million people. Not outside the realm of possibility, I suppose...
>What about all of the hundreds of millions killed in wars for such petty
>matters as property ownership?
Better still, what about all the religious wars?
>Gents, the question isn't why a loving, wonderful God created sharks, but
>why this same God would create MAN.
The question around here isn't *would*, but rather, *did*...
>If you think about it, humans have done
>few things of actual worth in this world. Most of our technological and
>humanitarian advances have been made to save us from our own mistakes.
But the fact that we recognize them as mistakes is still important...we are, I
think, the only extant species with a well-developed sense of hindsight.
>Animals, in my opinion, would do a much better job of ruling the world,
>because they have such a basic understanding of everything around them that
>they don't know HOW to mess anything up. Their only desires are to eat,
>procreate, sleep, and nurture their young.
>Why would God create something as warped as a human being? I believe it is
>for loving companionship, but I don't think we are hardly worthy of such a
>noble calling.
But from the perspective that humans evolved, everything we do makes some
degree of sense (except D. Spencer Hines' accusations of copyright infringment;
that made no sense, esp. to anyone who actually knew copyright law)
<snip the simpering godspeak>
>That is what a loving, gracious, kind, and wonderful God would do for all of
>us. If there was no such being as Him, I would certainly spend most of my
>time wishing that there was one.
Scientists, though, are not allowed to wish. That is, they are allowed to, but
they are not allowed to pass their wishes off as valid science.
Mark T. VandeWettering
David Johnston <rgo...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>Josiah Koniecki wrote:
>>
>> Sorry gents,
>> you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
>> are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
>> This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based on REAL
>> physical constraints, not on absence of fossil evidence. The gaps between
>> levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
>> order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
>
>of magnitude greater in size than a deer.
>
>> without being endangered itself. Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
>> must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
>
>predators with ease.
>
>> order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents.
>
>
>1. Predation is not the only force of selection.
>2. Size is not the only variable in predation.
>3. Even a slight increase in size can make a big difference in territorial
>and mating contests.
>4. Even a slight decrease in size can make a big difference in food
>requirements.
>
>Have I missed anything?
The main error that you (and I in my other posting) missed is that this does
little to refute the idea that beneficial mutations have been observed in
humans. Unless of course, Josiah sticks to his idea that the only beneficial
mutations for humans will be ones that allow us to grow to 60ft.
Mark
Mark T. VandeWettering
Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>Sorry gents,
>you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
>are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
The word is "discrete". If memory serves, Eltonian pyramids can be drawn
with either biomass, numbers, or energy (calories). Each reflects more
or less the same idea.
1) We'd expect to see fewer primary consumers (herbivores) than autotrophs.
2) We'd expect to see fewer secondary consumers (carnivores) than primary
consumers.
3) These numbers are also echoed in the total biomass of each, as well as
the amount of energy consumed. For instance, carnivores tend to have
relatively high metabolic rates by comparison as well, so they require
a relatively large intake of energy from primary consumers, which in turn
reflect a truly stupendous amount of energy derived from the autotrophic
producers.
>This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based on REAL
>physical constraints, not on absence of fossil evidence. The gaps between
>levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
>order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
>without being endangered itself.
I don't believe this is a proper interpretation of the Eltonian pyramid. It
says nothing about the sizes of predator/prey, but merely between the expected
amount of biomass/energy/numbers of organisms we'd expect to find. Natural
selection can use other means other than raw size to enhance survivability.
For instance, rather than becoming bigger, gazelles and the like can be made
faster. Wolves can use packs to overcome much larger creatures. It isn't
just a question of "bigger is better".
>Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
>must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
>For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
>order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents. Natural selection
>works AGAINST evolution in this case!
This is obviously false. Even if size is a desirable trait, it comes with
significant cost. Remember that Eltonian pyramid? Every calorie that is
burned by a primary consumer must be compensated for with an increasee in
the amount of food consumed. This may not be the most economical use of
energy.
If size is a trait which can be economically used to enhance survivability,
it needn't be an increase of an order of magnitude to be useful. Natural
selection makes use of even very small improvements.
>So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
Ah, so you are saying the only beneficial mutations for humans will be ones
that make them 60 feet tall?
I'm tempted to make a smart ass comment, but you know, that just speaks for
itself.
Mark
Mark T. VandeWettering
Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>Good evening, gents!
>Someone brought up an interesting argument, but I forget who it was. He
>asked me how a loving, gracious, wise, and kind God could create such a
>lethal machine of death as the shark. He also said not to bring up the "sin
>caused it" argument, so I won't.
>Compare this for a moment...
>Let's say that there are 50 shark-related deaths per year (which I think is
>an overstatement, sharks don't like the taste of human flesh). Gruesome,
>yes, and it is a tragedy.
>But...
[ Laundry list of death deleted... ]
I participate in these discussions largely with the goal of understanding
scientific questions raised by evolution and origins. But it _was_ I who
originally raised this point, so I figure that I should at least respond
to it.
>Gents, the question isn't why a loving, wonderful God created sharks, but
>why this same God would create MAN. If you think about it, humans have done
>few things of actual worth in this world. Most of our technological and
>humanitarian advances have been made to save us from our own mistakes.
>Animals, in my opinion, would do a much better job of ruling the world,
Umm. We are animals.
The real problem here isn't why pain or death or suffering exist.
The question is why would an all-knowing, all-forgiving God who
considers us his children create us to be so murderous, unkind and
ignorant creatures? Similarly, why does he hide his identity and
presence so completely? If he's truly the father of mankind, he
can only be considered a deadbeat dad.
>because they have such a basic understanding of everything around them that
>they don't know HOW to mess anything up. Their only desires are to eat,
>procreate, sleep, and nurture their young.
Indeed. Of course, for many humans, that's pretty much as good as it gets
too.
>Why would God create something as warped as a human being? I believe it is
>for loving companionship, but I don't think we are hardly worthy of such a
>noble calling. Think of this, if God created you, He would
>Love you for who you are, imperfections and all.
If he truly loves his children, why didn't he do a better job creating them?
>That is what a loving, gracious, kind, and wonderful God would do for all of
>us. If there was no such being as Him, I would certainly spend most of my
>time wishing that there was one.
I might spend my time wishing he did a better job, were I not so tied up
with eating, procreating, sleeping, nurturing my young, and posting on
talk.origins.
Mark
>
>
>As ever,
>Josiah
>
>
David Johnston
>
> Good evening, gents!
> Someone brought up an interesting argument, but I forget who it was. He
> asked me how a loving, gracious, wise, and kind God could create such a
> lethal machine of death as the shark. He also said not to bring up the "sin
> caused it" argument, so I won't.
> Compare this for a moment...
> Let's say that there are 50 shark-related deaths per year (which I think is
> an overstatement, sharks don't like the taste of human flesh). Gruesome,
> yes, and it is a tragedy.
> But...
> What about all of the millions of unborn babies slaughtered each year in
> hospitals?
Far more unborn babies miscarry without human help.
> What about the 6 million Jews exterminated by ruthless oppresion?
<Yawn>
I believe I'll skip the rest.
Stew Dean
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
> P.S.
> I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun
range, and
hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next
month.
> If anyone thinks that I am ignorant, just start talking about gun
> terminology, deployment, or methods of improving defensive
parameters, and I
> will be happy to talk your ears off.
"And so we can see that the tribal behavour of the ape named human is
still in exsistance. Via the developement of secondary emotions these
primitive urges are becoming less prevelent in socierty but, under some
conditions, still be allowed to be acceptable."
Yep - you're sounding pretty ignorant to me.
--
Stewart Dean
http://www.webslave.dircon.co.uk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Stew Dean
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
> What about all of the millions of unborn babies slaughtered each year
in hospitals?
Unborn baby is a contradiction in terms. Like military intelligence.
> What about the 6 million Jews exterminated by ruthless oppresion?
And who carried this out - grunts following orders. Urm.
> What about the untold millions of innocent people killed by communism?
Ditto capatalism. The whole concept of communism being somehow evil is
total and utter crap. Capatalism continues to kill millions in it's
name - directly and inderectly - as well you know.
> What about all of the hundreds of millions killed in wars for such
petty matters as property ownership?
A small pile compared to those killed for belief or cultural background.
For there to be territory there needs to be tribes - like the US army
for example.
> Gents, the question isn't why a loving, wonderful God created sharks,
but
> why this same God would create MAN.
What god?
> If you think about it, humans have done few things of actual worth in
this world.
Totally arbitary. Worth is a subjective term.
> Most of our technological and humanitarian advances have been made to
save us from our own mistakes.
Like waging war on strangers for strangers for example.
> Animals, in my opinion, would do a much better job of ruling the
world,
> because they have such a basic understanding of everything around
them that
> they don't know HOW to mess anything up.
Wrong. They simply don't have enough tools to do it quickly. They are
kept in balance by nature, preditors etc. Ironically as they are
finding out in various places in America where the over eager work of
an engineers with motos like 'man against nature' is having to be
undone at a cost of millions.
> Their only desires are to eat,
> procreate, sleep, and nurture their young.
Not that different from humans - it's a matter of scale only.
You are very very ignorant.
Stephen Poley
>For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
>order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents.
This is a remarkably daft statement, even by creationist standards. (Does
anyone keep a list of the stupidest creationist arguments from t.o? This
must be a contender for the top-twenty.)
Let's bring it down somewhere near Josiah's level, in an attempt to make it
comprehensible to him:
Tom and Joe go for a walk in the woods. Tom wears running shoes. "Why are
you wearing running shoes?" asks Joe. "In case we meet a bear" answers Tom.
"That's pointless - you could never out-run a bear" scoffs Joe.
"I don't have to out-run the bear - I only have to out-run *you*".
Stephen Poley
Barendrecht, Holland
R Bishop
wilkins <wil...@wehi.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <8nsrth$be3$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, R Bishop
><bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Excuse me? You mean that you've not noticed that a lion is smaller than
>> an emu? Or a water buffalo? Or a zebra?
>
>There is a distinct lack of lions here in Australia and South East Asia,
>where the emu and the water buffalo roam free... Perhaps you meant
>ostriches and gnus (it's a gnu...)
That's what I get for posting that late at night. Thanks for the correction.
Sue
>
>--
>John Wilkins, Head, Graphic Production, Hall Institute
><http://www.users.bigpond.com/thewilkins/darwiniana.html>
>Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
>Wanda: Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it.
>
"Never trust anything that thinks for itself,
Laurence A. Moran
R Bishop <bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In article <8nsnfd$ut6$1...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca>,
> lam...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca (Laurence A. Moran) wrote:
>
>>Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
>>>hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
>>
>>
>
>What's evident is, he's not only a Marine but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
>
>Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
Such people shouldn't be allowed to handle guns. Scary, isn't it?
Larry Moran
Derek Stevenson
R Bishop <bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> In article <8nsnfd$ut6$1...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca>,
> lam...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca (Laurence A. Moran) wrote:
> >In article <8nseq3$6m5$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
> >Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
> >
> >>I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun
> >>range, and hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle
> >>range next month.
> >
> >Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
>
> What's evident is, he's not only a Marine
I don't think that's evident at all.
I'm betting he's a fourteen year old with a military fetish and a
highly-developed fantasy persona.
(What's *your* default assumption when someone brags about their
numerous sexual conquests over the past weekend? Why should this be any
different?)
> but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
>
> Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
More likely, it's *all* in his head.
Ken Cox
> So, the big question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the mutation
> in Italy is a good genetic mutation,
Actually, my big question of the day is: Does the above mean
that you finally accept that beneficial mutations have occurred,
and have even been observed in humans?
> then how would mutations of this nature
> account for transitions between the discrete steps in the Eltonian Pyramid?
> If anyone reading this is unclear about what the Eltonian Pyramid is, please
> be sure to e-mail me, and I will be happy to respond to you.
Or just check the Web. It's a food-chain variant, applicable
to some terrestrial ecologies (but not all, and not any of the
aquatic ecologies that have been studied). Josiah's question
amounts to "how does evolution explain the difference between
plants, herbivorous animals, and carnivorous animals".
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Ken Cox
> Sorry gents,
> you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
> are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
No, there aren't. Many predators are smaller than their prey,
for example. You seem to have confused the order-of-magnitude
difference in number of organisms at each level with a difference
in the sizes of those animals.
Think about what you are saying, with animals in mind. Where are
these order-of-magnitude differences? Sure, if you take a mouse
and a cat, there is a change in size; but in between those there
are plenty of other mammals, such as rats and blacksnakes and
squirrels. Even using a child's picture-book zoo, you can work
your way from shrews up to elephants without ever having to jump
anywhere near an order of magnitude.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Ken Cox
> As a matter of fact, porcupines and skunks can repel substantially larger
> predators with ease.
A skunk is more usually a predator than a prey, but the principle
is valid. Basically, Josiah's claim that predators have to be an
order-of-magnitude larger than their prey is bunk, as anyone who's
watched ten minutes of wildlife footage can see.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Ken Cox
> I would ask about how an omnibenevolent god is willing to torture people for
> eternity for the crime of witholding their saccharine adulation...
I tend to worry about a god that *wants* saccharine adulation.
Appreciating is one thing, demanding is another.
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Dave Horn
news:39A291B7...@research.bell-labs.com...
>
> David Johnston wrote:
> > As a matter of fact, porcupines and skunks can
> > repel substantially larger predators with ease.
>
> A skunk is more usually a predator than a prey, but
> the principle is valid. Basically, Josiah's claim that
> predators have to be an order-of-magnitude larger than
> their prey is bunk, as anyone who's watched ten minutes
> of wildlife footage can see.
I think Josiah is impressed with terms like "eltonian pyramid" and
"order-of-magnitude" and thinks he can impress others if he tosses them
around in a discussion such as this - even if he doesn't fully understand
them or know what they mean.
Kinda looks like a larval Pagano...
Josiah Koniecki
> > What's evident is, he's not only a Marine
>
> I don't think that's evident at all.
>
> I'm betting he's a fourteen year old with a military fetish and a
> highly-developed fantasy persona.
>
> (What's *your* default assumption when someone brags about their
> numerous sexual conquests over the past weekend? Why should this be any
> different?)
>
> > but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
> >
> > Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
>
> More likely, it's *all* in his head.
Tell you what, if you ask reeeaaally nicely, I might just give my unit
number, and enough information on whatever machine gun issued to infantrymen
(i.e. M240 G, Mk19, or the M2 .50 cal.) that you could possibly ever want to
know. It's not secret information, it's just so complex and boring that the
average civilian could possibly care less. Hey, ask me anything. It
doesn't worry me that you don't think that I'm a Marine, because a lot of
people don't have the guts to become one. Would you like to hear stuff
about San Diego? Camp Pendleton? Tell you what, you tell me what the MOS
0331 is, and what weapon I would use in a Machine gun platoon, and I will be
happy to get back to you.
Toodles,
Josiah
Josiah Koniecki
John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
get your sense from something other than an arachnid, which I love
sqwooshing.
Toodles,
Josiah
Louann Miller
>Josiah Koniecki wrote:
>> Sorry gents,
>> you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
>> are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
>Think about what you are saying, with animals in mind. Where are
>these order-of-magnitude differences? Sure, if you take a mouse
>and a cat, there is a change in size; but in between those there
>are plenty of other mammals, such as rats and blacksnakes and
>squirrels. Even using a child's picture-book zoo, you can work
>your way from shrews up to elephants without ever having to jump
>anywhere near an order of magnitude.
Ken, I think your underlying assumption that he knows what "an order
of magnitude" MEANS, other than "lots," is flawed here.
Louann
Troll drummer: one, two, one two many lots!
Matt Silberstein
from gyu...@aol.com (Gyudon Z):
>From Josiah Koniecki:
>
[snip]
>
>>What about all of the millions of unborn babies slaughtered each year in
>>hospitals?
>
>If they're unborn, they're not technically babies...
What about the many millions more spontaneously aborted? Some 25%-50%
of human conceptions are *spontaneously* aborted.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
A simple man comes home and wonders what is for dinner
A complex man comes home and wonders about the complexities of the universe
An enlightened man comes home and wonders what is for dinner
A murderer on _Homicide: Life on the streets_
Dave Horn
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote in message
news:8nu5bs$i3u$1...@galileo.ticon.net...
> (Snip)
>
> > > What's evident is, he's not only a Marine
> >
> > I don't think that's evident at all.
> >
> > I'm betting he's a fourteen year old with a military fetish
> > and a highly-developed fantasy persona.
> >
> > (What's *your* default assumption when someone brags
> > about their numerous sexual conquests over the past
> > weekend? Why should this be any different?)
> >
> > > but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
> > >
> > > Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
> >
> > More likely, it's *all* in his head.
>
> Tell you what, if you ask reeeaaally nicely...
I doubt if you'll see this, because no one really cares.
> I might just give my unit number...
Meaningless. Won't prove a thing.
> ...and enough information on whatever machine gun
> issued to infantrymen (i.e. M240 G, Mk19, or the
> M2 .50 cal.) that you could possibly ever want to
> know.
Also meaningless, and relatively easy information anyone can get with just a
little effort.
> It's not secret information, it's just so complex...
Not.
> ...and boring that the average civilian could possibly
> care less.
Yes, so take a hint. Stick to topical material.
> Hey, ask me anything.
The last creationist to issue such a challenge was Mark Harpt. That was a
while ago but as soon as the challenges mounted up, he disappeared. Look
around. Do you see him?
> It doesn't worry me that you don't think that I'm a
> Marine...
Yes, it does, or you wouldn't say what follows:
> ...because a lot of people don't have the guts to become
> one.
Lots of people don't have the guts to answer challenges issued to them or
learn about what they would presume to criticize. Doing so frightens them
because they are afraid of what they'll discover and what it will mean to
deeply-held (if intellectually untenable) religious beliefs.
By the way, have you ever been in a shooting war with a real enemy, son?
I'm still waiting for the answer to that.
> Would you like to hear stuff about San Diego?
I grew up there. No. I probably forgot more about the area than you know.
> Camp Pendleton?
What's there to know that would matter? You could be the son of a Marine.
None of this would prove a thing.
> Tell you what, you tell me what the MOS 0331 is...
It's a machine gunner - at least it *was*. So what? What is it about that
that is relevant to discussions in this newsgroup or how you feel you can
apply it to what is being discussed here?
> ...and what weapon I would use in a Machine gun
> platoon, and I will be happy to get back to you.
I would much rather you get back to us with evidence that you've bothered to
get Russell's "Genetics" or "The Biological Basis of Cancer" so we can see
if you really understand mutations.
rich hammett
>> >>Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
>>
> (Snip)
> 1. I have good reason to be cocky, and yes, my youthful vitality is to be
> envied.
> 2. Sue, gee whiz, you sound like a married lady with kids. Quit thinking
> about the contents of my britches, as it is not very ladylike, and quite
> beside the point.
He's starting to sound like the angels in the movie _Dogma_, definitely
overcompensating.
> 3. Landis, we have a little policy about "don't ask, don't tell", so don't
> join in conversations about the intelligence of my anatomy. Things like
> this make my skin crall, and give me the urge for dry heaves.
Fortunately, the rest of us live in a free country, where (if our taste
were so poor) we could be as interested in your anatomy as we wished.
"Don't ask, don't tell" don't apply.
> Toodles,
> Josiah
> P.S.
> Why should I have a problem with killing people? According to evolution,
> humans are nothing more than super heated hydrogen gas which sat around for
> a long time. Oh, wait a minute, are you implying that humans are DIFFERENT
> from the rest of nature?
I also don't believe in killing kitty-cats, what does your god say about
that?
rich
> *GASP*!!!
> I feel whoozy and faint...
> I think another evolutionist is trying to see my side of an argument!
> Goodness gracious!
> *Whump*
Dave Horn
divert from the challenges that have been issued.
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote in message
news:8nu5n4$ib0$1...@galileo.ticon.net...
>
> John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
> news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
> >
> > Josiah Koniecki wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > P.S.
> > > Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons expert
> > > at 19, a little PFC.
[Snip]
> > My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
Mine tells me that the humor was lost on "Toodles."
> Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people.
Of *course* you are...<snicker>
I'm 5'7". Really.
Now...have you gotten Russell's "Genetics" - any edition will do - or "The
Biological Basis of Cancer?"
> Maybe you should get your sense from something other
> than an arachnid, which I love sqwooshing.
Uh, huh...and I used to put three Marines in jail (on average) in a slow
week.
And, of course, "sqwooshing" spiders shows a remarkable lack of insight into
their role in an ecosystem.
Can we get back to mutations?
rich hammett
> "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote in message
[snip]
>> Toodles,
>> Josiah
[snip]
> And what kind of marine says "toodles?"
DON'T ASK! He can't tell us!
rich
KMT
> (Snip)
>
> > > What's evident is, he's not only a Marine
> >
> > I don't think that's evident at all.
> >
> > I'm betting he's a fourteen year old with a military fetish and a
> > highly-developed fantasy persona.
> >
> > (What's *your* default assumption when someone brags about their
> > numerous sexual conquests over the past weekend? Why should this be any
> > different?)
> >
> > > but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
> > >
> > > Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
> >
> > More likely, it's *all* in his head.
>
> Tell you what, if you ask reeeaaally nicely, I might just give my unit
> number, and enough information on whatever machine gun issued to infantrymen
> (i.e. M240 G, Mk19, or the M2 .50 cal.) that you could possibly ever want to
> know. It's not secret information, it's just so complex and boring that the
> average civilian could possibly care less. Hey, ask me anything. It
> doesn't worry me that you don't think that I'm a Marine, because a lot of
> people don't have the guts to become one. Would you like to hear stuff
> about San Diego? Camp Pendleton? Tell you what, you tell me what the MOS
> 0331 is, and what weapon I would use in a Machine gun platoon, and I will be
> happy to get back to you.
>
> Toodles,
> Josiah
MOS = Military Occupational Speciality
0331 = Machine-Gunner
M240G Machine-Gun (Medium)
M2 .50 Caliber (Heavy)
MK19 Grenade Machine Gun
Derek Stevenson
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
> John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
> news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
> > My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
> >
> Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people.
Yeah, and I'll bet you've got nine rock-hard inches, too.
Yawn.
Louann Miller
wrote:
(more posturing suggesting the classic gun/gun confusion)
I think the bit you're missing is that nobody CARES how big, tough,
etc. etc. etc. you may or may not be. Nor should we, since this
particular discussion calls for brains instead of brawn. You may be
able to beat the heck out of Stephen Hawking (a safe deduction; my
five-year-old niece could do it too) but that wouldn't qualify you to
understand his math.
Louann
Susan S
<mat...@ix.netcom.com>:
>>From Josiah Koniecki:
>>
>[snip]
>>
>>>What about all of the millions of unborn babies slaughtered each year in
>>>hospitals?
>>
>>If they're unborn, they're not technically babies...
>
>What about the many millions more spontaneously aborted? Some 25%-50%
>of human conceptions are *spontaneously* aborted.
>
>[snip]
"Every sperm is sacred..."
Susan Silberstein
Gyudon Z
>In article <8nu5n4$ib0$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
> "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>> John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
>> news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
>
>> > My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
>> >
>> Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people.
>
>Yeah, and I'll bet you've got nine rock-hard inches, too.
For someone this obsessed with being big and strong and gun-knowledgeable and
able to kill people, I would call that a gross overestimation.
"Between true science and erroneous doctrines, ignorance is in the middle."
Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan
John Segerson
Josiah Koniecki wrote:
>
> John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
> news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
> >
> >
> > Josiah Koniecki wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > P.S.
> > > Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons expert at 19, a little
> PFC.
> > > I can outshoot most of my instructors, and beat almost all of them at
> > > D/A'ing. Technically, all you have to do to become a "weapons expert" is
> > > achieve a certain grade, job specialty, and base of knowledge in
> training.
> > > What I have is a workable knowledge of gunnery equipement, because I
> have to
> > > know what to do in the field. There have been times in the field that I
> > > have had to clean my rifle with toilet tissue, (from an MRE) and lube it
> up
> > > with whatever slippery substance I could find, because we were not
> issued
> > > enough supplies. That's knowledge that you can only gain by being a
> Corps
> > > infantryman, which I highly doubt you were.
> > > Just out of curiousity, how long were you in, and what was your grade,
> MOS,
> > > and BOS?
> >
> > My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
> >
> Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people. Maybe you should
> get your sense from something other than an arachnid, which I love
> sqwooshing.
Oh well, consider that theory falsified. Then
what explains your apparent need to impress us all
with the purity and potency of your testosterone?
J:-)
Johnny Bravo
>>What's evident is, he's not only a Marine but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
>>
>>Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
>
>Such people shouldn't be allowed to handle guns. Scary, isn't it?
No, such people are required to handle the guns. People with brains
in their heads instead of their pants don't charge machine gun nests upon
command. Someone has to do it, and better him than me. :)
--
Best Wishes,
Johnny Bravo
BAAWA Knight, EAC - Temporal Adjustments Division
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - HPL
Mike Haubrich
"Stew Dean" <ste...@webslave.dircon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8ntosv$4lh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8nsvl9$jnu$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
> "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>
> > What about all of the millions of unborn babies slaughtered each year
> in hospitals?
>
>
> > What about the 6 million Jews exterminated by ruthless oppresion?
>
> And who carried this out - grunts following orders. Urm.
>
>
> > What about the untold millions of innocent people killed by communism?
>
> Ditto capatalism. The whole concept of communism being somehow evil is
> total and utter crap. Capatalism continues to kill millions in it's
> name - directly and inderectly - as well you know.
>
>
misunderstanding of them that leads PEOPLE to kill in their names. Power is
so fine to have that the loss of human life can become secondary to its
desire.
This is why we kill in the name of .... fill in the blanks. It wasn't Marx
and Engels that said we should kill, it was Lenin and Pol Pot and Stalin and
Mao. It wasn't Adam Smith that said we should kill, either.
Elected leaders as well as despots, monarchs, popes as well as pagans, call
forth the battalions.
Evolution has nothing to do with war, the Bible has some encouragement of
it.
Dave Horn
news:sq57u0o...@corp.supernews.com...
> Dave Horn <Dave...@msn.com> is alleged to have said:
> > "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote in message
> > news:8nsqt8$g0p$1...@galileo.ticon.net...
> [snip]
> >> Toodles,
> >> Josiah
> [snip]
> > And what kind of marine says "toodles?"
>
> DON'T ASK! He can't tell us!
He's not *forbidden*...even under "don't ask, don't tell." ;)
Johnny Bravo
>levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
>order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
>without being endangered itself.
80 pound wolves prey upon 800 pound buffalo. There is no requirement
about not being endangered, nearly every predator is capable of being
damaged by normal prey. :)
> Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
>must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
100% wrong. See above, despite being 10 times larger buffalo are eaten
by wolves. A cheetah can easily eat a deer just as large as it is. Size
is not the only way to avoid being eaten, and being eaten, or not is not
the be-all end-all of survival. Rabbits aren't that fast, not at all
smart, easily caught and eaten by a huge number of predator animals.
According to your lack of logic, rabbits should be extinct. Guess you
need to learn a few things before you make your pronouncements of doom for
something you have absolutely no understanding of.
>For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
>order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents.
>P.S.
>Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons expert at 19, a little PFC.
Yawn, shooting expert was a piece of cake at age 18, despite never
having fired an M-16 before. I could have qualified as expert at age 14,
since I had more than 4 years shooting experience at that age. Including
care and maintenance of my personal weapons.
>I can outshoot most of my instructors, and beat almost all of them at
>D/A'ing. Technically, all you have to do to become a "weapons expert" is
>achieve a certain grade, job specialty, and base of knowledge in training.
If it is so easy, why do you doubt he did it?
>with whatever slippery substance I could find, because we were not issued
>enough supplies. That's knowledge that you can only gain by being a Corps
>infantryman, which I highly doubt you were.
Spare me. Cleaning a rifle with tissue might be a massive intellectual
challenge for a Marine, for the rest of us it takes roughly a second of
thought.
R Bishop
lam...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca (Laurence A. Moran) wrote:
>In article <8nss2t$12r$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>,
>R Bishop <bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In article <8nsnfd$ut6$1...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca>,
>> lam...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca (Laurence A. Moran) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <8nseq3$6m5$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
>>>Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>>I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range, and
>>>>hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
>>>
>>>Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
>>>
>>
>>What's evident is, he's not only a Marine but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
>>
>>Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
>
>Such people shouldn't be allowed to handle guns. Scary, isn't it?
I have a different view. Just think of it as evolution in action. Letting
these silly young studs kill each other off just cleans up the gene pool.
Sue
>
>
>
>Larry Moran
>
>
>
"Never trust anything that thinks for itself,
if you can't see where it keeps its brain."
J K Rowling
R Bishop
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>
>John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
>news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
>>
>>
>> Josiah Koniecki wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > P.S.
>> > Mr. Horn, I highly doubt that you were a weapons expert at 19, a little
>PFC.
>> > I can outshoot most of my instructors, and beat almost all of them at
>> > D/A'ing. Technically, all you have to do to become a "weapons expert" is
>> > achieve a certain grade, job specialty, and base of knowledge in
>training.
>> > What I have is a workable knowledge of gunnery equipement, because I
>have to
>> > know what to do in the field. There have been times in the field that I
>> > have had to clean my rifle with toilet tissue, (from an MRE) and lube it
>up
>> > with whatever slippery substance I could find, because we were not
>issued
>> > enough supplies. That's knowledge that you can only gain by being a
>Corps
>> > infantryman, which I highly doubt you were.
>> > Just out of curiousity, how long were you in, and what was your grade,
>MOS,
>> > and BOS?
>>
>> My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
>>
>Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people. Maybe you should
>get your sense from something other than an arachnid, which I love
>sqwooshing.
Dear Toodles, this went swooshing over your head. He wasn't talking about
how TALL you are.....
Sue
>
>Toodles,
>Josiah
R Bishop
"Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>(Snip)
>
>> > What's evident is, he's not only a Marine
>>
>> I don't think that's evident at all.
>>
>> I'm betting he's a fourteen year old with a military fetish and a
>> highly-developed fantasy persona.
>>
>> (What's *your* default assumption when someone brags about their
>> numerous sexual conquests over the past weekend? Why should this be any
>> different?)
>>
>> > but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
>> >
>> > Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
>>
>> More likely, it's *all* in his head.
>
>Tell you what, if you ask reeeaaally nicely, I might just give my unit
>number, and enough information on whatever machine gun issued to infantrymen
>(i.e. M240 G, Mk19, or the M2 .50 cal.) that you could possibly ever want to
>know. It's not secret information, it's just so complex and boring that the
>average civilian could possibly care less. Hey, ask me anything. It
>doesn't worry me that you don't think that I'm a Marine, because a lot of
>people don't have the guts to become one. Would you like to hear stuff
>about San Diego? Camp Pendleton? Tell you what, you tell me what the MOS
>0331 is, and what weapon I would use in a Machine gun platoon, and I will be
>happy to get back to you.
Sigh. Yep, short man syndrome.
Johnny Bravo
>Good evening, gents!
Hello troll.
>Someone brought up an interesting argument, but I forget who it was.
Cite please. Or we'll just assume you are making stuff up so you can
post more stupidity.
>asked me how a loving, gracious, wise, and kind God could create such a
>lethal machine of death as the shark.
Cite please, provide evidence that a) God exists, b) God created sharks
Take all the screens you need, we'll wait.
> He also said not to bring up the "sin
>caused it" argument, so I won't.
What do we care.
>Compare this for a moment...
Why?
>Let's say that there are 50 shark-related deaths per year (which I think is
>an overstatement, sharks don't like the taste of human flesh).
How do you know this about sharks? I'm pretty sure that is roughly 50
shark attacks, not deaths, per year. Feel free to look up the actual
figures on ask.jeeves.com and get back to us.
> Gruesome,
>yes, and it is a tragedy.
Not really. Compared to 6+ billion humans, it's not even a blip in the
numbers. I'm willing to bet that bees kill more humans a year than
sharks.
>But...
>What about all of the millions of unborn babies slaughtered each year in
>hospitals?
What about them, according to your mythical Book O'Blood, they don't
really count. The penalty for killing an unborn child is just a monetary
fee determined by the father of the child. I guess if the father agreed,
the penalty would be nothing. No penalty, no crime, sin or whatever else
you want to call it. Guess they just aren't people after all.
>What about the 6 million Jews exterminated by ruthless oppresion?
What about this supposed God killing 99.99999% of the population of the
entire Earth? When is that sick fucker going to stand in judgement for
his crimes against humanity?
>What about the untold millions of innocent people killed by communism?
What about the 96,000 innocent women and boys killed at God's command so
soldiers could own and rape 32,000 virgin girls?
>What about all of the hundreds of millions killed in wars for such petty
>matters as property ownership?
What about them? Feel free to find the number of races of people killed
at God's command so his goat herders could take their livestock and land.
>Gents, the question isn't why a loving, wonderful God created sharks,
The question is why a "loving, wonderful God" who is actually a sick,
psychotic, pedophile is deserving of your worship. Take all the screens
you need to justify your worship of this monster.
>why this same God would create MAN. If you think about it, humans have done
>few things of actual worth in this world.
I'll ask yet another question. If we are the creation of a perfect
being, why was such a poor job done?
> Most of our technological and
>humanitarian advances have been made to save us from our own mistakes.
Feel free to point out the mistake that teflon was made to save us from,
dirty pans?
>Animals, in my opinion, would do a much better job of ruling the world,
>because they have such a basic understanding of everything around them that
>they don't know HOW to mess anything up. Their only desires are to eat,
>procreate, sleep, and nurture their young.
Yet they worship no god, I guess they truly have things down pat. Stop
worshiping your blood thirsty beast and you too can be free.
>Why would God create something as warped as a human being? I believe it is
>for loving companionship, but I don't think we are hardly worthy of such a
>noble calling.
I thought God was supposed to be perfect. I guess this can't be the
case.
>Think of this, if God created you, He would
>Love you for who you are, imperfections and all.
And if God doesn't exist, the worst enemy mankind can imagine doesn't
exist either. Since we have no evidence for God, I guess we're in pretty
good shape.
PS: I don't need your dead pixie on a stick to love me, imperfections
and all. I've formed a long term relationship (9 years) with someone who
knows exactly who and what I am, and I know exactly who and what she is.
Despite this, we love each other completely.
<snip blather about what he wishes were true because he can't get any love
from another human>
Andre G Isaak
: In article <8nu5n4$ib0$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
: "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
: >John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
: >news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
: >> My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
: >>
: >Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people. Maybe you should
: >get your sense from something other than an arachnid, which I love
: >sqwooshing.
:
: Dear Toodles, this went swooshing over your head. He wasn't talking about
: how TALL you are.....
It may not have. He seems to have an *extremely* overinflated ego, and a
very overactive imagination.
Andre
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Andre G Isaak | GRH 137
Language Studies Program | x2453
Wellesley College | aisaak a t wellesley d o t edu
Robert Grumbine
R Bishop <bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I have a different view. Just think of it as evolution in action. Letting
>these silly young studs kill each other off just cleans up the gene pool.
Speaking of which, _The Gate into Women's Country_, by Sheri Tepper
(title and same somewhat approximate).
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences
Dave Horn
agi...@lessing.oit.umass.edu (Andre G Isaak) wrote:
> R Bishop (bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : In article <8nu5n4$ib0$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
> : "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
> : >John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
> : >news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
>
> : >> My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
>
> : > Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people.
> : > Maybe you should get your sense from something other
> : > than an arachnid, which I love sqwooshing.
> :
> : Dear Toodles, this went swooshing over your head. He wasn't
> : talking about how TALL you are.....
>
> It may not have. He seems to have an *extremely* overinflated ego,
> and a very overactive imagination.
It's understandable. He's young, a Marine, uneducated, a born-again,
and a creationist.
Ken Cox
> agi...@lessing.oit.umass.edu (Andre G Isaak) wrote:
> > It may not have. He seems to have an *extremely* overinflated ego,
> > and a very overactive imagination.
> It's understandable. He's young, a Marine, uneducated, a born-again,
> and a creationist.
But which are causes, which are confounders, which are
correlations, and which are consequences?
--
Ken Cox k...@research.bell-labs.com
Mike Owen
christian. He is not a marine. He is not a fourteen year old marine
wannabe. He is a TROLL. He is a charicature of everything that you
despise about arrogance, pompousness, and self-rightousness, distilled
and concentrated to the point of absurdity, and he is sitting back and
LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF. Tears are streaming down his cheeks he's
laughing so hard. He is laughing because you are buying it. You are
eating it up. I know these kinds of guys. They kick dogs. They tease
children. They make fun of people, just because it's fun to get people
all worked up. As I said before, "Josiah" ? PLEASE! He may as well
have chosen "Ezekial." Wise up. Stop giving this guy his jollies.
Mike
tweedyd
> you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that
there
> are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of
magnitude.
Ah, no, it doesn't say that. All it says is that there will be more prey
than predators.
> This represents gaps in the evolutionary tree, that is based on REAL
> physical constraints, not on absence of fossil evidence. The gaps between
> levels are the result of predator/prey mechanics. A predator must be an
> order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf
it,
> without being endangered itself.
Again, no, you are wrong. Wolves are smaller than Elk and Moose. T.Rex was
smaller than the saurapods that it preyed on, and birds of prey regularly
prey on larger birds. I personally have seen a 8 pound cat catch and kill
a 10 lb rabbit.
>Conversely, herbavores (non predators)
> must be roughly the same size as the predator to avoid BEING eaten.
No, they don't. Try actually observing nature before making such silly
claims. For example, wolves eat deer when they can, but they also eat a lot
of mice and voles, which are easier to catch. A prey item can use
camoflage, stealth, or herd tactics to avoid becoming lunch. Size of the
critter is irrelevant.
> For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
> order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents.
No, it doesn't. All it has to do is provide better chance of survival to
breeding age. Size truly doesn't matter in this case.
>Natural selection
> works AGAINST evolution in this case!
> So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
Which simply means you don't understand evolution or natural selection, and
you don't understand predator/prey relationships either.
>
> Toodles,
> Josiah
>
snip of silly immature posturing. It doesn't matter if you are or are not a
Marine, you are still an ignorant, arrogant puppy when it comes to science.
--
Dana J. Tweedy
superstitione tollenda religio non tollitur
J&S
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.166 / Virus Database: 79 - Release Date: 6/20/00
J&S
> Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> is alleged to have said:
> > (Snip)
> > Why should I have a problem with killing people? According to
evolution,
> > humans are nothing more than super heated hydrogen gas which sat around
for
> > a long time. Oh, wait a minute, are you implying that humans are
DIFFERENT
> > from the rest of nature?
Another one unlcear on the diference between EVOLUTION, and COSMOLOGY. Get
back to me when you've sussed out the two.
SILAS
J&S
> >
> Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people. Maybe you should
> get your sense from something other than an arachnid, which I love
> sqwooshing.
>
> Josiah
I'm 6'5". Yer short son.
John Segerson
J&S wrote:
>
> ---
Deep
KMT*
Ken Cox wrote:
I'll try.
cause - uneducated
confounder - marine
correlation - born-again
consequence - creationist
Dave Horn
news:3oEo5.1023$yH2....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote in message
> news:8nu5n4$ib0$1...@galileo.ticon.net...
> >
> > John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
> > news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
[Snip]
> > Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most
> > people.
[Snip]
> I'm 6'5". Yer short son.
In some ways, he could be 8' tall...he'd still be short where it's counted
so far.
Bob Casanova
talk.origins, posted by Mike Owen <m_o...@bellsouth.net>:
Hey, if he wants people to think (know?) he's a pathetic
moron, who am I to dissuade him?
(Note followups, if any)
Bob C.
Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net
(without the spaces, of course)
"Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness
to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt."
--H. L. Mencken
Bob Casanova
talk.origins, posted by "Josiah Koniecki"
<jon...@ticon.net>:
You're not evil; merely stupid.
<CrapSnip>
Ian Musgrave & Peta O'Donohue
Address altered to avoid spam, delete RemoveInsert
On 21 Aug 2000 19:43:07 -0400, "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net>
wrote:
>Good afternoon, gents!
>I just had an interesting weekend.
[snipped]
>So, what did you guys do on your weekend?
Helped out calving.
>Okay, down to business. If you have been reading my past postings (I highly
>suggest you do before you comment on this one) you know that I left the
>debate on beneficial genetic mutations in individuals for further research.
>I promised that I would continue in that debate when I returned from my
>weekend, so here I am.
>So, the big question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the mutation
>in Italy is a good genetic mutation, then how would mutations of this nature
>account for transitions between the discrete steps in the Eltonian Pyramid?
<Boggle> Why do you think benefical mutations are related to tropic
levels? Aside from the fact that accumulation of benefical mutations
is required for organisms to transit from being a producer to a
consumer?
Cheers! Ian
=====================================================
Ian Musgrave Peta O'Donohue,Jack Francis and Michael James Musgrave
reyn...@werple.mira.net.au http://werple.mira.net.au/~reynella/
a collection of Dawkins inspired weasle programs http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~ianm/whale.htm
Southern Sky Watch http://www.abc.net.au/science/space/default.htm
Pat James
(in message <39A2E986...@bellsouth.net>):
> You guys amaze me. This dude is not a creationist.
Maybe.
> He is not a
> christian.
Probably.
> He is not a marine.
Almost certainly.
> He is not a fourteen year old marine
> wannabe.
This I'm not too sure about.
> He is a TROLL.
No doubt at all about that.
> He is a charicature of everything that you
> despise about arrogance, pompousness, and self-rightousness, distilled
> and concentrated to the point of absurdity, and he is sitting back and
> LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF.
I'm sure about that, too.
> Tears are streaming down his cheeks he's
> laughing so hard. He is laughing because you are buying it. You are
> eating it up. I know these kinds of guys. They kick dogs. They tease
> children. They make fun of people, just because it's fun to get people
> all worked up. As I said before, "Josiah" ? PLEASE! He may as well
> have chosen "Ezekial."
Except that I have met some guys named Ezekiel. And Isiah. And Jerimiah. And
even one named 'Armour of God'. (Yes, really. I went to school with him. We
called him Armie. And yes, he was a fundie... but he had a sense of humour.
WIth that name, he'd better have had.)
> Wise up. Stop giving this guy his jollies.
Some of us are having fun, too.
--
Scientific creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with
incredible arrogance.
Creationist: (1) One who follows creationism. (2) A moron. (3) A person
incapable of doing math. (4) A liar. (5) A very gullible true believer.
Pat James
(in message <8nu8p0$nt2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>):
> In article <8nu5n4$ib0$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
> "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>> John Segerson <sem...@olywa.net> wrote in message
>> news:39A202F1...@olywa.net...
>
>>> My spider sense tells me that this is "short man's syndrome"
>>>
>> Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people.
_Sure_ you are.
>
> Yeah, and I'll bet you've got nine rock-hard inches, too.
^^^^^^
You misspelled 'centimetres' (okay... 'centimeters', in Merkin). HTH.
Pat James
(in message <8nu5bs$i3u$1...@galileo.ticon.net>):
> Tell you what, if you ask reeeaaally nicely, I might just give my unit
> number, and enough information on whatever machine gun issued to infantrymen
> (i.e. M240 G, Mk19, or the M2 .50 cal.)
Bullshit. Ma Dueces are bloody heavy. Depending on model, they weigh in at 35
to 50 kg (77 to 110 pounds) and another 20 kg (44 pounds) for the tripod...
and that's _without_ ammo. If you're humping a M2 around, you'd _better_ be
6'2" and damn strong. And someone else had better be carrying the tripod and
ammo. I remember carrying a Short Magazine Lee Enfield around during my days
in the Cadet Force; damn thing got heavier and heavier with every step, and
it sure wasn't a bloody M2. Being in the Cadets convinced me that if I ever
go to war, I'll do it the _civilized_ way: in the navy. No mud. No 20-mile
marches. And, especially, no digging.
> that you could possibly ever want to
> know. It's not secret information, it's just so complex
Not at all complex.
> and boring
Now that I agree with.
> that the
> average civilian could possibly care less. Hey, ask me anything. It
> doesn't worry me that you don't think that I'm a Marine, because a lot of
> people don't have the guts to become one.
I've seen Marines. (Real ones, not Yank imitations.) I'll pass, thanks.
Getting shot to pieces making an beach assualt does not interest me.
> Would you like to hear stuff
> about San Diego? Camp Pendleton? Tell you what, you tell me what the MOS
> 0331
Machinegunner
> is, and what weapon I would use in a Machine gun platoon, and I will be
> happy to get back to you.
M60 (ugh, a pig of a weapon only a Merkin could tolerate) or a M240, probably
a M240 in these degenerate days. Almost certainly not a M2. If you were in
the heavy weapons company, maybe one of the Gatlings or an automatic grenade
launcher. Those things aren't that much lighter than a Duece, though.
Pat James
(in message <39A2B1FB...@olywa.net>):
>> Actually, I'm 6'2, a good head taller than most people. Maybe you should
>> get your sense from something other than an arachnid, which I love
>> sqwooshing.
>
> Oh well, consider that theory falsified. Then what explains your apparent
> need to impress us all with the purity and potency of your testosterone?
Lack of same? I suspect that JK ain't really a Marine. And if, by chance, he
is, his DI's comments about the difference between his rifle and his gun
ain't sunk in yet.
Yo! JK! _This_ is your rifle and _this_ is your gun! One is for fighting, one
is for fun! Don't mix 'em up!
Pat James
(in message <8nu08k$84d$1...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca>):
> In article <8nss2t$12r$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>,
> R Bishop <bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> In article <8nsnfd$ut6$1...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca>,
>> lam...@bioinfo.med.utoronto.ca (Laurence A. Moran) wrote:
>>
>>> In article <8nseq3$6m5$1...@galileo.ticon.net>,
>>> Josiah Koniecki <jon...@ticon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> I've qualified as an expert at the pistol range, the machine gun range,
>>>> and
>>>> hopefuly will be able to do the same thing at the rifle range next month.
>>>
>>> Do you enjoy learning how to kill people?
>>>
>>
>> What's evident is, he's not only a Marine but a YOUNG cocky Marine.
>>
>> Sigh, brains in his pants, not his head.
>
> Such people shouldn't be allowed to handle guns. Scary, isn't it?
If he really is a Marine (which I doubt) he'll learn better the first time he
goes into action... if he lives.
Ian Musgrave & Peta O'Donohue
Address altered to avoid spam, delete RemoveInsert
On 21 Aug 2000 23:38:31 -0400, wilkins <wil...@wehi.edu.au> wrote:
>In article <8nsrth$be3$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, R Bishop
><bis...@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Excuse me? You mean that you've not noticed that a lion is smaller than
>> an emu? Or a water buffalo? Or a zebra?
>
>There is a distinct lack of lions here in Australia and South East Asia,
>where the emu and the water buffalo roam free... Perhaps you meant
>ostriches and gnus (it's a gnu...)
However, Thyacaleo and the Thylacines (the marsupial "lions" and
"wolves") respectively, _were_ smaller than emu's (and most kangaroos,
and diprotodons etc), as was the carnivorous rat kangaroo. The
Australian Terror birds, including the Demon Duck from Hell, are
another story though.
Ian Musgrave & Peta O'Donohue
Address altered to avoid spam, delete RemoveInsert
On 21 Aug 2000 23:09:25 -0400, "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net>
wrote:
>Sorry gents,
>you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
>are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
Er. that's the size of the organisms _populations_ not the size of
the organisms themsleves. You might like to re-check a basic biology
book.
[snip]
>A predator must be an
>order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
>without being endangered itself.
This is completely incorrect, and could be determined to be incorrect
by a breif look at nature. I'm sure you will get many examples
predators smaller than their prey, but my favorite is the
dinoflagellate Pfiesteria piscidia, a microscopic organisms that can
kill (via a toxin) and eat fish many orders of magnitute larger than
it.
[snip]
>For a mutation to be beneficial it has to result in the offspring being in
>order of magnitude greater in size than it's parents.
Why? even in your absurd example (where you have confused the size of
the population with the size of an organism), this would only matter
if an organism was moving up a trophic level, and even then not. Take
the case of a carnivorous mouse (this is a real example-shuffles
papers for reference to name, can't find it), that evolved from a
herbivorous ancestor, it has switched from small seeds and grasses to
small insects, so that it retains it's size advantage.
>Natural selection
>works AGAINST evolution in this case!
>So much for that family in Italy! Hah!
The ones you have admitted had a benefical mutation. Were they moving
up a trophic level?
Josiah Koniecki
you all are begining to seriously dissapoint me. I had come to this forum
with the intentions of serious scientific arguments, and all I'm getting
back is ridicule, sarcasm, and weak arguments. This is actually depressing
for me, because up until this point I actually enjoyed the discussions.
Look, I could hardly care less about what a bunch of overweight, wimpy, fat
and ugly e-nerds think or believe about me as a Marine. I know I am one,
and your personal attacks merely show that you have run out of good
arguments. I could declare myself the winner, but I won't. It would imply
that evolution had a basis in science in the first place. You people are
pathetic. You need to go out, and get meaningful purpose in your lives. If
you think that strutting your stuff by trying to pound on the evil
creationist proves that you have useful content in your lives, think again.
I personally think that you doubt my service in the Corps because you can't
logically debase my arguments. Face it, I stomped all of you. Maybe I will
return periodically to move the goalpoasts to where you can't reach them
(but I still can!) just so you all feel stupid. Congradulations, you have
drained my will to argue for now. What use is there in arguing with a fool?
He will still hate you...
Sue, your arguments were so silly I am thinking about pasting them on my
refrigerator. Maybe you should stick with cooking supper and having
children.
Horn, you are obviously a dumb squid who has barely even heard a gun fire,
much less seen combat. We haven't had a real war in ten years, no kidding I
haven't seen combat yet, huh? Just rest assured that while we Marines are
kicking the tar out of the enemy, you'll be safe inside a tin can, wondering
how long it is till the next shore leave. Oh yeah, your arguments were so
silly that I didn't even think twice about responding to them.
GyodonZ, or however you spell it, you are almost certainly a college dink
who is a little out of his league right now. Keep studying on the 2LT and
that EP, alright? You obviously forgot a lot of things there.
Cox, you managed to bring up ONE good point, which I think someone helped
you with, but your arguments are so... Just keep working on 'em, alright?
Those of you who were actually polite, and intelligent in your responses, my
best wishes for you, and I look forward to future debates.
One more thing, it seriously saddens me that you people can be so cruel and
cold. How can you look at the poor Russian and Chinese peasants, and not
see the horrors of communism? I feel so down right now, that people can be
so ignorant about history, and so willing to repeat it. Some of you were
quite right when you said that you are nothing more than mere animals. I
can see that more clearly every time I talk to you. You are savages, brutes
incapable of knowing who God is at this point in your lives. I for one know
that I am purely human, and am glad that God created me differently.
Abortion? Take one look at a monitor viewing a pregnancy. What do you see?
You can't tell me that it isn't a baby there. You people are disgusting...
I have sincerely lost respect for almost all of you, and am begining to pray
Jonah's prayer, that God should deal with you as He deems neccessary.
Good evening,
Josiah
P.S.
I could really care less if any of you choose to accept Christ from my
talking of Him. You know the truth, I have said it in as many ways as
possible, but you still call me ignorant because I won't accept evolutionary
"facts". I wipe my the dust off of my feet, let God deal with you as He
chooses.
Gyudon Z
> Being in the Cadets convinced me that if I ever
>go to war, I'll do it the _civilized_ way: in the navy.
The "civilized" way to conduct a war is being the one who presses the button
that fires the cruise missiles. You don't even have to worry about seasickness.
"Between true science and erroneous doctrines, ignorance is in the middle."
Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan
Chris Ho-Stuart
> G'Day All
> Address altered to avoid spam, delete RemoveInsert
>
> On 21 Aug 2000 23:09:25 -0400, "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net>
> wrote:
>
>>Sorry gents,
>>you all missed the second aspect of the Eltonian Pyramid, namely that there
>>are descrete levels in size of organisms separated by an order of magnitude.
>
> Er. that's the size of the organisms _populations_ not the size of
> the organisms themsleves. You might like to re-check a basic biology
> book.
>
> [snip]
>>A predator must be an
>>order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
>>without being endangered itself.
>
> This is completely incorrect, and could be determined to be incorrect
> by a breif look at nature. I'm sure you will get many examples
> predators smaller than their prey, but my favorite is the
> dinoflagellate Pfiesteria piscidia, a microscopic organisms that can
> kill (via a toxin) and eat fish many orders of magnitute larger than
> it.
Does this example, if we consider it a case of predator/prey, also
falsify the notion that populations of predators are smaller?
(I presume it takes very large numbers of dinoflagellate P. p.
to kill a fish; this kind of predation would, I guess, be an
exception the the rule for the Eltonian pyramid.)
Cheers -- Chris
R Bishop
"Ian Musgrave & Peta O'Donohue" <e21092...@minyos.its.rmit.edu.au> wrote:
>G'Day All
>Address altered to avoid spam, delete RemoveInsert
>
>On 21 Aug 2000 19:43:07 -0400, "Josiah Koniecki" <jon...@ticon.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Good afternoon, gents!
>>I just had an interesting weekend.
>[snipped]
>>So, what did you guys do on your weekend?
>
>Helped out calving.
>
Scraped out stalls, groomed horses, spend a while training one of them,
then saddled on of the older ones up for a limited ride. THEN displayed
another horse for some friends who run a Theraputic Riding Clinic. They
decided to take her so she is now being trained..
Then I loaded about 1,000 pounds of various metal farm junk in my horse
trailer and hauled it to the scrap metal yard.
Then I came home, washed dirty dishes, cooked a big pot roast with potatoes
and carrots and had dinner. With some very nice red wine.
>>Okay, down to business. If you have been reading my past postings (I highly
>>suggest you do before you comment on this one) you know that I left the
>>debate on beneficial genetic mutations in individuals for further research.
>>I promised that I would continue in that debate when I returned from my
>>weekend, so here I am.
>>So, the big question of the day is, given Mr. Cox's point that the mutation
>>in Italy is a good genetic mutation, then how would mutations of this nature
>>account for transitions between the discrete steps in the Eltonian Pyramid?
>
><Boggle> Why do you think benefical mutations are related to tropic
>levels? Aside from the fact that accumulation of benefical mutations
>is required for organisms to transit from being a producer to a
>consumer?
>
Sue
>Cheers! Ian
>=====================================================
>Ian Musgrave Peta O'Donohue,Jack Francis and Michael James Musgrave
>reyn...@werple.mira.net.au http://werple.mira.net.au/~reynella/
>a collection of Dawkins inspired weasle programs http://www
personal.monash.edu.au/~ianm/whale.htm
>Southern Sky Watch http://www.abc.net.au/science/space/default.htm
>
"Never trust anything that thinks for itself,
if you can't see where it keeps its brain."
J K Rowling
Josiah Koniecki
Pat James <patj...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:01HW.B5C8A9680...@enews.newsguy.com...
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:14:09 -0500, Josiah Koniecki wrote
> (in message <8nu5bs$i3u$1...@galileo.ticon.net>):
>
> > Tell you what, if you ask reeeaaally nicely, I might just give my unit
> > number, and enough information on whatever machine gun issued to
infantrymen
> > (i.e. M240 G, Mk19, or the M2 .50 cal.)
>
> Bullshit. Ma Dueces are bloody heavy. Depending on model, they weigh in at
35
> to 50 kg (77 to 110 pounds) and another 20 kg (44 pounds) for the
tripod...
> and that's _without_ ammo. If you're humping a M2 around, you'd _better_
be
> 6'2" and damn strong. And someone else had better be carrying the tripod
and
> ammo.
Yes, that is how we do it. I don't fire that weapon often because I'm in a
weapons PLATOON, not a weapons COMPANY! The M240G is my baby.
I remember carrying a Short Magazine Lee Enfield around during my days
> in the Cadet Force;
I was never a cadet, I went into the REAL military.
>damn thing got heavier and heavier with every step, and
> it sure wasn't a bloody M2. Being in the Cadets convinced me that if I
ever
> go to war, I'll do it the _civilized_ way: in the navy. No mud. No 20-mile
> marches. And, especially, no digging.
Have a little respect for those who do, eh?
>
> > that you could possibly ever want to
> > know. It's not secret information, it's just so complex
>
> Not at all complex.
You don't know enough about it yet.
>
> > and boring
>
> Now that I agree with.
>
> > that the
> > average civilian could possibly care less. Hey, ask me anything. It
> > doesn't worry me that you don't think that I'm a Marine, because a lot
of
> > people don't have the guts to become one.
>
> I've seen Marines. (Real ones, not Yank imitations.) I'll pass, thanks.
> Getting shot to pieces making an beach assualt does not interest me.
You are a serious wuss. NO, it doesn't appeal to me either, but there
hasn't been a beach landing since Inchon. Get your facts straight, dip,
this isn't 1944 anymore.
>
> > Would you like to hear stuff
> > about San Diego? Camp Pendleton? Tell you what, you tell me what the
MOS
> > 0331
>
> Machinegunner
Congradulations, I knew that before I went into Basic.
> > is, and what weapon I would use in a Machine gun platoon, and I will be
> > happy to get back to you.
>
> M60 (ugh, a pig of a weapon only a Merkin could tolerate)
Only the nasty Army uses those anymore, they're practically antiques.
or a M240, probably
> a M240 in these degenerate days. Almost certainly not a M2. If you were in
> the heavy weapons company, maybe one of the Gatlings
WHAT?!? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
or an automatic grenade
> launcher.
Mmm, MK19 is the word you're looking for?
>Those things aren't that much lighter than a Duece, though.
They're heavier, knucklehead. You've never carried one, have you? The
barrel doesn't detach for normal D&Aing.
> Scientific creationism: a religious dogma combining massive ignorance with
> incredible arrogance.
> Creationist: (1) One who follows creationism. (2) A moron. (3) A person
> incapable of doing math. (4) A liar. (5) A very gullible true believer.
>
>
Evolutionist: (1) One who follows evolutionism. (2) believes people came
from superheated gas. (3) Believes lungs can function as gills (4) calls
people "ignorant" a lot (5) Runs and hides from questions about the
specifics of evolution.
PZ Myers
gyu...@aol.com (Gyudon Z) wrote:
> From Pat James:
>
> > Being in the Cadets convinced me that if I ever
> >go to war, I'll do it the _civilized_ way: in the navy.
>
> The "civilized" way to conduct a war is being the one who presses the
> button that fires the cruise missiles. You don't even have to worry
> about seasickness.
Funny. I always thought the civilized way to conduct a war was not to.
--
PZ Myers
Michael G.
wrote:
>Alright gents,
>you all are begining to seriously dissapoint me. I had come to this forum
>with the intentions of serious scientific arguments, and all I'm getting
>back is ridicule, sarcasm, and weak arguments. This is actually depressing
>for me, because up until this point I actually enjoyed the discussions.
>Look, I could hardly care less about what a bunch of overweight, wimpy, fat
>and ugly e-nerds think or believe about me as a Marine. I know I am one,
Methinks the Marine doth protest too much.
>and your personal attacks merely show that you have run out of good
The rest mercifully deleted.
If you're interested in serious discussion, you might try sticking to
the topic you're interested in. How much space in your initial post
did you devote to guns and your alleged stint in the Marines and how
much did you devote to evolution and/or creation? How relevant is any
of this military trivia to either topic?
--Michael
tweedyd
> Alright gents,
> you all are begining to seriously dissapoint me. I had come to this forum
> with the intentions of serious scientific arguments, and all I'm getting
> back is ridicule, sarcasm, and weak arguments.
Why are you ignoring the serious scientific arguments, and wasting our time
on meaningless posturing about how you are a big bad Marine?
This is actually depressing
> for me, because up until this point I actually enjoyed the discussions.
> Look, I could hardly care less about what a bunch of overweight, wimpy,
fat
> and ugly e-nerds think or believe about me as a Marine. I know I am one,
> and your personal attacks merely show that you have run out of good
> arguments. I could declare myself the winner, but I won't.
]
that's good, because you haven't been even close to making your case. On
what grounds do you claim you have "won"? Nothing you have presented so far
has stood up to any rebuttal.
It would imply
> that evolution had a basis in science in the first place. You people are
> pathetic. You need to go out, and get meaningful purpose in your lives.
Such as killing people?
> If
> you think that strutting your stuff by trying to pound on the evil
> creationist proves that you have useful content in your lives, think
again.
It's only you who charcterize yourself as evil. So far you are merely
mistaken and misguided.
> I personally think that you doubt my service in the Corps because you
can't
> logically debase my arguments. Face it, I stomped all of you.
No, you haven't answered why you think that the food chain has anything to
do with beneficial mutations. You haven't answered why you think that
predators always are larger than their prey, even though one look at nature
shows this is wrong. You haven't presented any physical evidence to support
your claims, and you have constantly shown you don't understand the most
basic science.
Maybe I will
> return periodically to move the goalpoasts to where you can't reach them
> (but I still can!) just so you all feel stupid. Congradulations, you have
> drained my will to argue for now. What use is there in arguing with a
fool?
> He will still hate you...
I am sorry you hate us, and I am sorry you are a fool. However, it's not
our fault. I see you are wimping out and running away. So sad, don't let
the door hit you on your way out.
snip of ad hominems
> One more thing, it seriously saddens me that you people can be so cruel
and
> cold. How can you look at the poor Russian and Chinese peasants, and not
> see the horrors of communism? I feel so down right now, that people can
be
> so ignorant about history, and so willing to repeat it. Some of you were
> quite right when you said that you are nothing more than mere animals.
Humans are animals, nothing mere about it. Communism is a failure, and has
caused much misery, but so has Capitalism. Either way, it's irrelevant to a
discussion about science.
I
> can see that more clearly every time I talk to you. You are savages,
brutes
> incapable of knowing who God is at this point in your lives. I for one
know
> that I am purely human, and am glad that God created me differently.
God did not create your ignorance. It's your own. Please don't make the
common mistake of thinking that evolution = athiesm.
> Abortion? Take one look at a monitor viewing a pregnancy. What do you
see?
> You can't tell me that it isn't a baby there. You people are
disgusting...
> I have sincerely lost respect for almost all of you, and am begining to
pray
> Jonah's prayer, that God should deal with you as He deems neccessary.
Your personal views on abortion, communism, etc are irrevant. The sad part,
is that you probably do think you have won this argument. Even sadder, you
will cling to your ignorance and arrogance.
>
> Good evening,
> Josiah
>
> P.S.
> I could really care less if any of you choose to accept Christ from my
> talking of Him.
Not bloody likely. You are a poor witness for Christ. Furthermore many
religious people accept evolution as fact.
>You know the truth, I have said it in as many ways as
> possible, but you still call me ignorant because I won't accept
evolutionary
> "facts".
You are ignorant because you refuse to learn. Your acceptance of
Creationism is merely a symptom of your ignorance.
>I wipe my the dust off of my feet, let God deal with you as He
> chooses.
>
Not a very Christian attitude I must say.
Gyudon Z
>Alright gents,
>you all are begining to seriously dissapoint me. I had come to this forum
>with the intentions of serious scientific arguments, and all I'm getting
>back is ridicule, sarcasm, and weak arguments.
<snip further exposition of the same, including silly ad hominems that I'm
ignoring because they don't apply to me, until we reach the one that does...>
>GyodonZ, or however you spell it, you are almost certainly a college dink
>who is a little out of his league right now. Keep studying on the 2LT and
>that EP, alright? You obviously forgot a lot of things there.
Since I refuse to accept that the only beneficial mutation in humans is one
that allows us to grow to 60 feet, based on your complete butchery of the
Eltonian pyramid (which measures energy availability or biomass, and
specifically not size), suddenly an ignorant 19-year-old Marine knows more than
18-year-old junior in college (who, of course, got A's in biology and physics)?
You will pardon me for missing the logical connection there.
<snip further>
>One more thing, it seriously saddens me that you people can be so cruel and
>cold. How can you look at the poor Russian and Chinese peasants, and not
>see the horrors of communism?
How can you look at the corpses of thousands of Turks, Protestants (including
the Huguenots, but other than her involvement in that, I happen to like
Catherine de Medici) as well as witches, and also the Inquisited, and not see
the horrors of Christianity?
Apart from which, Russia switched to capitalism and the peasants are still
wretched. Much of Africa, Southeast Asia, and South America are ruled by
capitalist military dictatorships, and the peasants there remain wretched as
well. I don't think you've made a point against communism. Mind you, many
Western philosophers (even outside of the McCarthy period) consider capitalism
the only economic system that respects the moral rights of the people. Hence,
the actions of that rogue, Sani Abacha of Nigeria, are superior to the actions
of that other rogue, Fidel Castro.
And let's not even go into the human rights abuses of the Middle Eastern
theocracies...you will note, of course, that they justify these actions by a
misinterpretation of an old religious text. Sound familiar?
> I feel so down right now, that people can be
>so ignorant about history, and so willing to repeat it.
The only real problem with communism is that it doesn't work. As an abstract
noun, it is incapable of harming anything. Now, when one tries to *make* it
work, then we have problems...
Anyway, you are a good little soldier for a country that holds most of the
world at its beck and call, so don't complain about any nation's untoward
appropriation of power until you stop being the instrument of reinforcing one
nation's stranglehold on it.
>Some of you were
>quite right when you said that you are nothing more than mere animals. I
>can see that more clearly every time I talk to you.
Well, if you're not an animal...are you some sort of intelligent fungus?
>You are savages, brutes
>incapable of knowing who God is at this point in your lives.
Why should we want to be capable of knowing something that has never given any
conclusive signs of its existence?
Particularly one that wants to torture us eternally for the crime of
independent thought (unless you happen to be Catholic; then you're allowed to
use your brain).
>I for one know
>that I am purely human, and am glad that >God created me differently.
Differently than what? Apart from a lack of fur, a greater size, a different
posture, and a layer of cortical tissue, you are a bonobo chimpanzee (minus
half a percent of DNA).
>Abortion? Take one look at a monitor viewing a pregnancy. What do you see?
>You can't tell me that it isn't a baby there.
Which is why I tend to oppose abortions taken before the 26th week. Can you
differentiate between a protist and a zygote?
<snip down to the P.S>
>I could really care less if any of you choose to accept Christ from my
>talking of Him.
Ignorance rears its ugly head again. The correct expression is "couldn't care
less." The above implies that you care now.
>You know the truth, I have said it in as many ways as
>possible, but you still call me ignorant because I won't accept evolutionary
>"facts".
We call you ignorant because you apparently know nothing about science.
Honestly, unaware of the concept of thermionically coupled? Confusing "biomass"
with "size" in the Eltonian Pyramid? Tsk, tsk...
>I wipe my the dust off of my feet, let God deal with you as He
>chooses.
Be it as Allah wills, as said the Wazir Nur al-Din (you should read his tale in
the unabridged, uncensored version. Damned funny)
wilkins
<my...@mac.com> wrote:
Silly man :-) Wars are an effect of civilisation, not a bar to it. How
many wars do nonsedentary agriculturalists engage in?
The sorts of ritualised combat and raiding that you get in, eg, Papua
New Guinea tend to leave very few injured and fewer dead (there are
exceptions, of course). But wars between *civilised* nations (meaning
regional groups of populations mostly organised into cities) are
extremely efficient and death and injury, not to mention disease.
--
John Wilkins, Head, Graphic Production, Hall Institute
<http://www.users.bigpond.com/thewilkins/darwiniana.html>
Otto: Apes don't read philosophy.
Wanda: Yes they do, Otto, they just don't understand it.
Gyudon Z
correction? I wrote:
>Which is why I tend to oppose abortions taken before the 26th week.
I meant, after the 26th week.
Johnny Bravo
>Alright gents,
Hello troll.
>you all are begining to seriously dissapoint me.
That just breaks our hearts.
> I had come to this forum
>with the intentions of serious scientific arguments,
Feel free to present one at any time. Your stupidity about wolves being
10 times bigger than buffalo doesn't cut it.
> and all I'm getting back is ridicule, sarcasm, and weak arguments.
Strangely enough, you get what you give here.
>Look, I could hardly care less about what a bunch of overweight, wimpy, fat
>and ugly e-nerds think or believe about me as a Marine.
This is exactly why we don't give you any slack, you're a troll.
You whine about personal attacks while making ones of your own.
> I know I am one, and your personal attacks merely show that you have
>run out of good arguments.
We hardly need a good argument, you have presented nothing to argue
against. Now you will bring out "Argument from Martyrdom", declare
victory, and since your head is so far up your ass you will climb all
the way in and disappear completely. We won't miss you.
> I could declare myself the winner, but I won't.
Actually, you could, but what's another lie for you.
> It would imply
>that evolution had a basis in science in the first place.
LOL, thus speaks the guy who thinks that substituting a tissue from an
MRE for a cleaning cloth is some kind of major feat only possible by a
marine.
> You people are pathetic.
LOL, coming from you that's a compliment. The worst thing you could
have possibly said was that we were on your level.
> You need to go out, and get meaningful purpose in your lives.
Got one, I do this for entertainment.
>you think that strutting your stuff by trying to pound on the evil
>creationist proves that you have useful content in your lives, think again.
You aren't evil, just ignorant. You aren't man enough to be evil.
>I personally think that you doubt my service in the Corps because you can't
>logically debase my arguments.
Your service, or lack thereof has nothing to do with the argument. You
just tossed it in because you had nothing meaningful to offer. Not our
fault you're ignorant with no desire to cure the condition.
> Face it, I stomped all of you.
We already know you don't understand logic.
> Maybe I will
>return periodically to move the goalpoasts to where you can't reach them
>(but I still can!) just so you all feel stupid.
Wow, a creationist who moves the goal posts, how original. Will you
post Pascal's Wager before you go?
>What use is there in arguing with a fool?
>He will still hate you...
I'm sure you are speaking from first hand experience here.
>Sue, your arguments were so silly I am thinking about pasting them on my
>refrigerator. Maybe you should stick with cooking supper and having
>children.
LOL, what a macho man. It's quite a shame you'll have to die a virgin.
Unless you bring up that don't ask, don't tell stuff again. I'm sure
you'll made a fine wife for a real man.
>One more thing, it seriously saddens me that you people can be so cruel and
>cold. How can you look at the poor Russian and Chinese peasants, and not
>see the horrors of communism?
Because you are stupidly ignorant twit who can't realize that evolution
doesn't cause communism any more than chemistry causes firing squads.
> I feel so down right now,
Get used to it, stupid people are like that.
>I have sincerely lost respect for almost all of you, and am begining to pray
>Jonah's prayer, that God should deal with you as He deems neccessary.
Here it is, Pascal's Wager. Thanks for not letting us down.
PS: Feel free to be the first person in recorded history to display
objective, repeatable, unbiased evidence of your "God".
--
Best Wishes,
Johnny Bravo
BAAWA Knight, EAC - Temporal Adjustments Division
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - HPL
Gyudon Z
Well, I suppose the only really civilized way to fight a war is across a
chessboard.
Or like in that episode of Star Trek with that society that played war
simulations against each other, and the losers just walked into a furnace. That
was civilized.
Ian Musgrave & Peta O'Donohue
Address altered to avoid spam, delete RemoveInsert
On 22 Aug 2000 23:48:25 -0400, Chris Ho-Stuart
<host...@sky.fit.qut.edu.au> wrote:
>Ian Musgrave & Peta O'Donohue <e21092...@minyos.its.rmit.edu.au> wrote:
[snip]
>> [snip]
>>>A predator must be an
>>>order of magnitude greator than the prey in order to capture and engulf it,
>>>without being endangered itself.
>>
>> This is completely incorrect, and could be determined to be incorrect
>> by a brief look at nature. I'm sure you will get many examples
>> predators smaller than their prey, but my favorite is the
>> dinoflagellate Pfiesteria piscidia, a microscopic organism that can
>> kill (via a toxin) and eat fish many orders of magnitute larger than
>> it.
>
>Does this example, if we consider it a case of predator/prey, also
>falsify the notion that populations of predators are smaller?
>
>(I presume it takes very large numbers of dinoflagellate P. p.
>to kill a fish; this kind of predation would, I guess, be an
>exception the the rule for the Eltonian pyramid.)
Sort of, it actually doesn't take that many of the little beasties to
kill fish, as the toxin is insanely potent, however, we are talking
over a million of the little blighters per fish, so it counts as an
exception in the numbers sense, but the mass of a billion
dinoflagellates is a small fraction the mass of a fish, so the actual
energy flow relationships are conserved.
Cheers! Ian
=====================================================
Ian Musgrave Peta O'Donohue,Jack Francis and Michael James Musgrave
reyn...@werple.mira.net.au http://werple.mira.net.au/~reynella/
a collection of Dawkins inspired weasle programs http://www-personal.monash.edu.au/~ianm/whale.htm