Seal demand outstrips supply

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pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

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Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
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Some items of note:

1. On April 18, 1996, Mark Small, president of the Canadian Sealers Association,
estimated the 1996 Canadian seal hunt will generate between $10 million-$15
million (Can.) in Newfoundland and Labrador.

2. Ches Coish, president of the Northeast Coast Sealer's Co-operative, says his
company has a market for an additional 56,000 seal pelts. The company is
having troublegetting the pelts because of the strong market demand and the
quota, which is almost achieved, which is limiting the supply.

3. John Efford, Minister of Fisheries for Newfoundland and Labrador, says seal
markets are calling for another 150,000 seals (in addition to the current
250,000 animal quota). The Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans has
said the quota will not be raised.

4. The industry cannot keep up with the demand for seal fur, in particular from
European markets.

So far this year, the market demand for seal products (pelts, meat, innards,
oil) has far exceeded the supply. The seal hunt was scheduled to end on May 15,
but it looks like it will end much earlier (and perhaps sometimes later this
week). The millions of dollars generated by the industry is a real economic shot
in the arm to rural, coastal communities throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

All this is the result of an ecologically sound, rigidly controlled harvest of
the animals that is regulated and managed by officials of the Canadian
Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

Stephen Best

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Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
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pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:

>Some items of note:
>
>1. On April 18, 1996, Mark Small, president of the Canadian Sealers Association,
>estimated the 1996 Canadian seal hunt will generate between $10 million-$15
>million (Can.) in Newfoundland and Labrador.
>

The quota for harp seals is about 250,000 which means to generate
$15,000,000 each seal must attract $60 ($15,000,000/250,000 = $60).

How is this figure, the highest in modern history, being achieved?

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

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Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
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I posted a simple analysis of the value to be derived from sealing last
week. you must have missed it. But suffice to say that the $10 million-$15
million guestimate of mr. Small is very much achievable.

Pelts will bring about $20 per, that's $5 million there.

The meat is going for $0.27 per pound and there will be somewhere
around 12.5 million pounds derived from the 250,000 seals harvested. That
brings another $3,375,000.

The oil is going for $0.15 a kilogram. That'll bring in another couple of
million.

Then there's the innards. And not to forget the infamous seal penis,
which animal rightist have been saying is the only real product. How muchdo
they go for? One loon here suggested they go for $25 each. But let's be
more conservative and take half that amount. We'll also assume that only
half the seals taken were males (125,000). That's another $3,125,000.

That's well within the range estimated by the president of the Canadian
Sealers' Association.


I await Stephen Best's next argument ad nauseum as he shifts emphasis from
pillar to post in his futile efforts to discredit the seal hunt, a valid,
and ecologically sound human enterprise.

The most amazing thing is that the Steven Best types would regret greatly
the end of the seal hunt as it would mark the end of the most lucrative
fund-raising icon animal rightists like themselves have ever employed.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

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Apr 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/19/96
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In article <1996Apr19.141659.1@leif>, pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
>
> The meat is going for $0.27 per pound and there will be somewhere
> around 12.5 million pounds derived from the 250,000 seals harvested. That
> brings another $3,375,000.
^^^^^^^^^
OOPS...that should read $1,562,500 - but it doesn't change the overall
success of the enterprise.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

Dave Wheeler

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Apr 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/20/96
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-=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-

pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
pm> Newsgroups: talk.environment
pm> Subject: Seal demand outstrips supply
pm> Message-Id: <1996Apr19.102044.1@leif>

pm> Some items of note:

pm> 1. On April 18, 1996, Mark Small, president of the Canadian Sealers
pm> Association, estimated the 1996 Canadian seal hunt will generate
pm> between $10 million-$15 million (Can.) in Newfoundland and Labrador.

It will be nice to see actual figures instead of estimates
from the seal killer association.

pm> 2. Ches Coish, president of the Northeast Coast Sealer's Co-operative,
pm> says his company has a market for an additional 56,000 seal pelts. The
pm> company is having troublegetting the pelts because of the strong
pm> market demand and the quota, which is almost achieved, which is
pm> limiting the supply.

Then why don't they get the million pelts stored in Norway?

pm> 4. The industry cannot keep up with the demand for seal fur, in
pm> particular from European markets.

What European markets?

Remember that seal pelts are illegal in Europe.

pm> So far this year, the market demand for seal products (pelts, meat,
pm> innards, oil) has far exceeded the supply. The seal hunt was scheduled
pm> to end on May 15, but it looks like it will end much earlier (and
pm> perhaps sometimes later this week). The millions of dollars generated
pm> by the industry is a real economic shot in the arm to rural, coastal
pm> communities throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.

It remains to be shown that there will be millions of dollars
generated, but even if so, it is a cruel practice.

pm> All this is the result of an ecologically sound, rigidly controlled
pm> harvest of the animals that is regulated and managed by officials of
pm> the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

I can envision a Nazi death camp officer saying essentially
the same thing.


... "Careful, we don't want to learn from this." - Calvin

Dave Wheeler

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Apr 20, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/20/96
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-=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-

pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
pm> Newsgroups: talk.environment
>

> The meat is going for $0.27 per pound and there will be somewhere
> around 12.5 million pounds derived from the 250,000 seals harvested. That
> brings another $3,375,000.

pm> ^^^^^^^^^
pm> OOPS...that should read $1,562,500 - but it doesn't change the overall
pm> success of the enterprise.

pm> Stig (in Newfoundland)

Of course it does. Particularly when Canada spent millions
to develop the penis market and $400,000. in regular subsidies,
and I presume about another $2,000,000. in per pound subsidies.

And, of course, Mr. Stig is mistaking the selling of a few pounds
at a local market with finding a market for 12.5 million pounds.

The real figures are probably $25,000. from meat sales, based on
past total returns of about $150,000. from dead seals.

The Norwegians are even worse and spend many times more in subsidies
than is returned from the sale of dead seal parts.

Cruel. And stupid.

... Demand an end to Norwegian and Canadian seal kill subsidies.

David S. Eitelbach

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Apr 21, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/21/96
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In <a22_960...@salata.com> dave.w...@salata.com (Dave Wheeler)
wrote:

> Then why don't they get the million pelts stored in Norway?

> What European markets?


>
> Remember that seal pelts are illegal in Europe.

Where you figure Norway is, Dave?

--
David S. Eitelbach
dse...@crl.com

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

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Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
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In article <a22_960...@salata.com>, dave.w...@salata.com (Dave Wheeler) writes:
> -=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-
>
> pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
> pm> Newsgroups: talk.environment
> pm> Subject: Seal demand outstrips supply
> pm> Message-Id: <1996Apr19.102044.1@leif>
>
> pm> Some items of note:
>
> pm> 1. On April 18, 1996, Mark Small, president of the Canadian Sealers
> pm> Association, estimated the 1996 Canadian seal hunt will generate
> pm> between $10 million-$15 million (Can.) in Newfoundland and Labrador.
>
> It will be nice to see actual figures instead of estimates
> from the seal killer association.

Yes, perhaps we could use figures from such unbiased sources as Animal
people magazine. Who would best know the value of the industry, those
actively involved in it, or those who snipe at it from the long-distance
sidelines?

> pm> 2. Ches Coish, president of the Northeast Coast Sealer's Co-operative,
> pm> says his company has a market for an additional 56,000 seal pelts. The
> pm> company is having troublegetting the pelts because of the strong
> pm> market demand and the quota, which is almost achieved, which is
> pm> limiting the supply.
>

> Then why don't they get the million pelts stored in Norway?

Source o this datat, please??

> pm> 4. The industry cannot keep up with the demand for seal fur, in
> pm> particular from European markets.
>

> What European markets?
>
> Remember that seal pelts are illegal in Europe.

This is not true. There is a ban on whitecoat seal pelts in the European
Community. Other seal pelts are sold through the Community and other
European countries. You really should try some unbiased sources the next
time you do your research.

> pm> So far this year, the market demand for seal products (pelts, meat,
> pm> innards, oil) has far exceeded the supply. The seal hunt was scheduled
> pm> to end on May 15, but it looks like it will end much earlier (and
> pm> perhaps sometimes later this week). The millions of dollars generated
> pm> by the industry is a real economic shot in the arm to rural, coastal
> pm> communities throughout Newfoundland and Labrador.
>
> It remains to be shown that there will be millions of dollars
> generated, but even if so, it is a cruel practice.

"Even if so, it is a cruel practice" -- Therein lies the totality of Dave
Wheeler's arguements against sealing. The rest of the tripe he serves up is
nothing more that, to borrow a phrase, "insult and denial". I recently used
the phrase "shifting sands" to describe this approach to seal-hunt
opposition. Looks like a sand storm to me.

> pm> All this is the result of an ecologically sound, rigidly controlled
> pm> harvest of the animals that is regulated and managed by officials of
> pm> the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
>
> I can envision a Nazi death camp officer saying essentially
> the same thing.

Careful with the Nazi analogy, Wheeler. It has been pointed out many times
in the past that your approach to propaganda places you firmly to the right
of Josef Goebbels.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

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Apr 22, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/22/96
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In article <a21_960...@salata.com>, dave.w...@salata.com (Dave Wheeler) writes:
> -=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-
>
> pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
> pm> Newsgroups: talk.environment
> >
> > The meat is going for $0.27 per pound and there will be somewhere
> > around 12.5 million pounds derived from the 250,000 seals harvested. That
> > brings another $3,375,000.
> pm> ^^^^^^^^^
> pm> OOPS...that should read $1,562,500 - but it doesn't change the overall
> pm> success of the enterprise.
>
> pm> Stig (in Newfoundland)
>
> Of course it does. Particularly when Canada spent millions
> to develop the penis market and $400,000. in regular subsidies,
> and I presume about another $2,000,000. in per pound subsidies.

Wheeler, you've got it wrong again. You keep quoting this $400,000 figure,
yet your only source is an article in Animal people magazine. Sealing will
generate $10 million to $15 million this year in the Newfoundland economy.
Your economic arguments don't hold water. Go back to your "Stop it, because
I think it's cruel" approach. You may win more converts with this sordid
emotional appeal.

Wheeler should travel to this area of the world and observe for himself the
intense activity around those plants that are processing seals and
operating 24-hours a day employing thousands of rural people -- plants that
would be closed and people who would be unemployed. And all these benefits
derived from an ecologically sound, nature-respecting enterprise. Ain't it
nice.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

Dave Wheeler

unread,
Apr 23, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/23/96
to
-=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-

pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
pm> Newsgroups: talk.environment

pm> Subject: Re: Math correction Re: seal demand outstrips supply

pm> In article <a21_960...@salata.com>, dave.w...@salata.com (Dave
pm> Wheeler) writes: > -=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-

> Of course it does. Particularly when Canada spent millions
> to develop the penis market and $400,000. in regular subsidies,
> and I presume about another $2,000,000. in per pound subsidies.

pm> Wheeler, you've got it wrong again. You keep quoting this $400,000
pm> figure, yet your only source is an article in Animal people magazine.

$400,000. is the average subsidy from 1988 to 1994. Note that
Mr. Stig does not deny that this figure is correct.

Nor does he deny the accuracy of the $2,000,000. in per pound
subsidies.

pm> Sealing will generate $10 million to $15 million this year in the
pm> Newfoundland economy.

This is an unpublished, unattributed, unsupported claim
that Mr. Stig allegedly heard from some seal killer.
It is contradicted by the seal marketing study conducted
by the government, among many other facts.

pm> Your economic arguments don't hold water. Go
pm> back to your "Stop it, because I think it's cruel" approach. You may
pm> win more converts with this sordid emotional appeal.

Both economic and cruelty arguments are valid.

In fact, there are few valid arguments in support of the slaughter.

pm> Wheeler should travel to this area of the world and observe for
pm> himself the intense activity around those plants that are processing
pm> seals and operating 24-hours a day employing thousands of rural people
pm> -- plants that would be closed and people who would be unemployed. And
pm> all these benefits derived from an ecologically sound,
pm> nature-respecting enterprise. Ain't it nice.

Martin Sheen and Capt. Paul Watson were almost lynched last
year when they went to Newfoundland to show the natives a
non-violent way to earn money from seals.

Also, Canada should be boycotted until it stops the
seal slaughter.

Of course, arguments about uselessly killing seals as make
work for subsidies can apply to any activity, many of them
more productive than killing seals.


... Real men don't kill seals for penises.

David S. Eitelbach

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Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
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In <e6d_960...@salata.com> dave.w...@salata.com (Dave Wheeler)
wrote:

> Also, Canada should be boycotted until it stops the
> seal slaughter.

No, no, Dave -- can't do that! Sea Shepherd Paul Watson's latest book was
published in Toronto. Also, Stephen Best and his demonizing web server are
in Ontario as well. So, it's all right to boycott all of Norway -- but not
all of Canada. You're only supposed to boycott Atlantic Canada, get it?

That way, people can still send in money to the International Wildlife
Coalition with a clear conscience after they have visited Mr. Best's
demonization mill and seen Norwegian whalers shown as faceless, shadowy
figures whose "cold eyes scan the gentle waves ahead searching for
innocent prey".

<http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/whale_adoption/gallery.html>

And, shoppers, you can go right on to see Newfoundlander sealers demonized
as savage, vicious brutes as well...

"Shots ring out. Blood stains the white ice and the blue water.
Alone, bleeding from a bullet hole in its side, a terrified baby
seal just 17 days old squirms in a struggle to escape. Held in
place with the sealer's foot, the pup's stomach is sliced open
from chin to tail. These days, with the seal fur market dead
only one part of this baby is sought -- a seal penis for the
aphrodisiac trade in the Orient! The hunter probes the genital
region with his knife. He spits out a curse; this little seal is
a female. The sealers time and the cost of the bullet has all
been wasted -- wasted, just like the life of this lovely wild
animal."

<http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/seal_hunt/hunt.html>

And, just on the next aisle, you can also find a rationalization for
boycotting all the sealers *and the non-sealers* who live in the poorest
part of Canada. Feeling somewhat bad about that? Don't -- there's a free
rationalization right on the same page. Guilt-free hate is the best hate.

<http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/seal_hunt/boycott.html>

Yes, now you can love animals and hate people and feel good about all of
it! Just by visiting the International Wildlife Coalition web server.

So, let's not boycott ALL of Canada, and in the process cut off the funds
to the International Wildlife Coalition demonizing web server, the virtual
heart of gonzo environmentalism in North America.

Ursula Keuper-Bennett

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Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
In article <317d7b8d....@165.113.1.21>,

dse...@crl.com (David S. Eitelbach) wrote:

>figures whose "cold eyes scan the gentle waves ahead searching for
>innocent prey".
>
> <http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/whale_adoption/gallery.html>

Went there to check it out. Wording highly emotional as David notes.

David writes:
>
>And, shoppers, you can go right on to see Newfoundlander sealers
demonized
>as savage, vicious brutes as well...


> <http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/seal_hunt/hunt.html>

Went there to check it out. Photo of cute whitecoat. Thought there
would be a photo of the Newfoundlander skinning and grabbing for the
genitals only to find it was a female. No photo.


David writes:


>rationalization right on the same page. Guilt-free hate is the best
hate.
>
> <http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/seal_hunt/boycott.html>


>Yes, now you can love animals and hate people and feel good about all
of
>it!

Went there. Wording clearly aimed at the emotions and therefore my
immediate reaction is to turn my Bullshit Detector to high.

For the take of any resource, there ultimately is but one question to be
asked. Can the population sustain the take? Whether the animals are
cute isn't an issue. Whether humanity should regard the creatures of
this planet here for his use isn't the issue.

Simply can the resource handle the take? I found this at the page.

There is no scientific evidence that harp seal populations are
increasing, remaining stable or
decreasing, much less that they are "exploding". The last survey of harp
seal populations was
done in 1990. The scientists estimated that there were approximately 3
million seals.


Now there is a problem here. One. When I get to an activist website, I
have to keep in mind that what is before my eyes is THEIR stats. Should
I visit the Newfoundland Sealer Page, the same would be true.

The only question is this. Can a population of 3 million seals sustain
a take of 250 000 annually?

For that answer, I would not go to the Coalition or what the sealers
have to say. I would seek out the stats and opinions of sealing experts
in respected peer reviewed literature. And while that too is no
guarantee, it is the best I've got.


^ Ursula Keuper-Bennett
0 0 Mississauga, Ontario
/V^\ I I /^V\ Email: how...@io.org
/V Turtle Trax V\ Visit the Turtle Trax Toon at:
/V Forever Green V\ http://www.io.org/~bunrab/toon.htm

Ursula Keuper-Bennett

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Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
In article <317d7b8d....@165.113.1.21>,
dse...@crl.com (David S. Eitelbach) wrote:


after they have visited Mr. Best's
>demonization mill and seen Norwegian whalers shown as faceless, shadowy

>figures whose "cold eyes scan the gentle waves ahead searching for
>innocent prey".
>
> <http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/whale_adoption/gallery.html>


This site was very interesting. Don't know much about Norwegian
whaling and this site wouldn't rank high as a way to find out
objectively what is going on.

I am pulling off these two pieces of information.

"Norway's policy is clear. Ignore the upcoming International
Whaling Commission meeting where they will, once again, be branded a
pirate whaling nation. Cover up the fact that Norway’s own scientific
research is severely flawed, grossly and conveniently over-estimating
the population of minke whales. Wreck the international protection for
whales so they can sell their kill to Japan." Daniel J. Morast

These "scientific" estimates referred to here. Do they show up in
respected scientific literature or just in Norwegian government
documents? How does the international whale community of respected
researchers regard Norwegian "researchers"?

We all know there are tobacco "researchers" who work very hard to
convince us that smoking really isn't a problem. Researchers can be the
most despicable of whores. I guess to really find out I would have to
do my own investigation but there just isn't the time. (I remain
focussed on marine turtles)

Here is the other quote from the website:

"I presume that there is currently being done a lot of work
in Norway to try to find further factors which could bring the [minke
whale] abundance estimate back up to the old level. But I have also
identified additional factors which, if they are taken into account,
would reduce the abundance estimate to about 40,000." Dr. Justin Cooke
(Researchers have concluded that zero animals can be caught if the
population is under 50,000.)"

Dr. Justin Cooke's name was blued and I followed the link figuring it
would explain who he is and what institution he respresents but all I
got was "Cooke is one of the world’s most famous whale researchers He
has 15 years behind him in the IWC,"

I would have preferred knowing the institution from which he does his
research so I could follow up. I can tell you who the top most
respected marine turtle researchers are so I assume in the whale
community there exists an equally high regarded group of people. I
wanted to know if the good doctor was one.

And also important, it looked like what Dr. Cooke said came from a TV
programme and what I would want to know and see is whether his stats and
commentary made it into a respected journal.

I am not implying that respected journals don't publish errors.

In a previous post I mentioned that for take of animals, the issue is
not how cute they are, or whether humans have the right to regard other
life as here for their convenience. The only real question is can the
population sustain the take in the numbers allowed?

I am not sure the Minke thing is that clear. The seals are in Canada
are a Canadian resource. The take is by Canadians only. If Minkes stay
only in Norwegian waters then the issue is like the seals, can the
population sustain the take?

But if the whales (as I suspect) roam in international waters, then any
nation has a right to that resource. What would happen if other nations
decided they wanted the revenue from these animals?

That right now is where I want to stop and would appreciate an answer.


Regards

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

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Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
In article <e6d_960...@salata.com>, dave.w...@salata.com (Dave Wheeler) writes:
> -=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-
>
> pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
> pm> Newsgroups: talk.environment
> pm> Subject: Re: Math correction Re: seal demand outstrips supply
>
> pm> In article <a21_960...@salata.com>, dave.w...@salata.com (Dave
> pm> Wheeler) writes: > -=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-
>
> > Of course it does. Particularly when Canada spent millions
> > to develop the penis market and $400,000. in regular subsidies,
> > and I presume about another $2,000,000. in per pound subsidies.
>
> pm> Wheeler, you've got it wrong again. You keep quoting this $400,000
> pm> figure, yet your only source is an article in Animal people magazine.
>
> $400,000. is the average subsidy from 1988 to 1994. Note that
> Mr. Stig does not deny that this figure is correct.

Stig also does not acknowledge that it is accurate. Stig doesn't know. But
Stig is less inclined to believe Dave Wheeler than more immediate sources
closer to what actually happens in the seal hunt. Stig used Wheeler's stat
to prove a point.

> Nor does he deny the accuracy of the $2,000,000. in per pound
> subsidies.

Nor does he acknowledge the accuracy of them. Wheeler, you're really losing
it. Surely you know that Stig has little regard or faith in most of what
you post.

> pm> Sealing will generate $10 million to $15 million this year in the
> pm> Newfoundland economy.
>
> This is an unpublished, unattributed, unsupported claim
> that Mr. Stig allegedly heard from some seal killer.
> It is contradicted by the seal marketing study conducted
> by the government, among many other facts.

This is the estimate of the president of the Canadian Sealers Association.
Now if we're looking for unbiased, unsupported sources that are published,
I guess we should all read Animal people. Get real! The seal market study
conducted by A government (not THE government) is old -- if it ever did
have validity. It certainly doesn't reflect the present reality of a very
successful 1996 seal hunt with markets for the hides, the meat, the oil and
the innards world-wide -- an industry that will generate $10 million to $15
million in the Newfoundland economy.

> pm> Your economic arguments don't hold water. Go
> pm> back to your "Stop it, because I think it's cruel" approach. You may
> pm> win more converts with this sordid emotional appeal.
>
> Both economic and cruelty arguments are valid.

Only in your dreams.

> pm> Wheeler should travel to this area of the world and observe for
> pm> himself the intense activity around those plants that are processing
> pm> seals and operating 24-hours a day employing thousands of rural people
> pm> -- plants that would be closed and people who would be unemployed. And
> pm> all these benefits derived from an ecologically sound,
> pm> nature-respecting enterprise. Ain't it nice.
>
> Martin Sheen and Capt. Paul Watson were almost lynched last
> year when they went to Newfoundland to show the natives a
> non-violent way to earn money from seals.

What's your source for this? Martin Sheen wasn't in Newfoundland last year
and the only reason Paul Watson was here was to answer charges to
endangering life at sea (he was convicted). You really should take a
geography lesson. You seem to know as little about this area of the world
as you know about sealing.


Watson and Sheen went to the Magdalen Islands in the Gulf
of St. Lawrence. It's part of the province of Quebec. They incited an
almost riot and left the island at the request of the police for their own
protection, but not before Watson attacked several sealers with a Stun Gun.
Nice non-violent philosophy. What a bunch of hypocites.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

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Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
In article <4liasc$n9c...@net7b.io.org>, how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett) writes:
>
> For the take of any resource, there ultimately is but one question to be
> asked. Can the population sustain the take? Whether the animals are
> cute isn't an issue. Whether humanity should regard the creatures of
> this planet here for his use isn't the issue.
>
> Simply can the resource handle the take? I found this at the page.
>
> There is no scientific evidence that harp seal populations are
> increasing, remaining stable or
> decreasing, much less that they are "exploding". The last survey of harp
> seal populations was
> done in 1990. The scientists estimated that there were approximately 3
> million seals.
>
> Now there is a problem here. One. When I get to an activist website, I
> have to keep in mind that what is before my eyes is THEIR stats. Should
> I visit the Newfoundland Sealer Page, the same would be true.
>
> The only question is this. Can a population of 3 million seals sustain
> a take of 250 000 annually?
>
> For that answer, I would not go to the Coalition or what the sealers
> have to say. I would seek out the stats and opinions of sealing experts
> in respected peer reviewed literature. And while that too is no
> guarantee, it is the best I've got.

The 3 million figure is inaccurate. The 1990 survey estimated a herd in the
order of 4-5 million. Curent estimates available from the federal
Department of Fisheries and Oceans lean towards the 5 million figure. You
can check with them for unbiased information.

BTW, it is a relief to see a tone of civility entering the thread. I admit
I'm sometimes guilty of turning up the heat, but I would much rather prefer
a discourse based on fact or at least well-stated opinion, than the attack
politics of some of the posters here.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

Anders Jelmert

unread,
Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
On 24 Apr 1996 10:46:11 GMT
how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett)
wrote:

>
> In article <317d7b8d....@165.113.1.21>,
> dse...@crl.com (David S. Eitelbach) wrote:
>
> after they have visited Mr. Best's
> >demonization mill and seen Norwegian whalers shown as faceless, shadowy
> >figures whose "cold eyes scan the gentle waves ahead searching for
> >innocent prey".
> >
> > <http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/whale_adoption/gallery.html>
>
> This site was very interesting. Don't know much about Norwegian
> whaling and this site wouldn't rank high as a way to find out
> objectively what is going on.

With your ability to scrutinize information, let me suggest
Tirpitz, the Norwegian web-page on whaling. You'll find it at:
http://tirpitz.ibg.uit.no/wwww/ss.html.

I welcome your opinion on the information, and I would
like to hear if you find some difference in ethical standard.


> I am pulling off these two pieces of information.
>
> "Norway's policy is clear. Ignore the upcoming International
> Whaling Commission meeting where they will, once again, be branded a

> pirate whaling nation. [...] snip

> These "scientific" estimates referred to here. Do they show up in
> respected scientific literature or just in Norwegian government
> documents? How does the international whale community of respected
> researchers regard Norwegian "researchers"?

The figures as well as the methodology are annually presented and
discussed the scientific committee in IWC (That is the Int.
Whaling Commission, not the fund-raising variety with same acronyme).
On the Tirpiz web-site you will find a lot of information that illuminates
the modern whaling controversy. You will also learn about the difference
between the scientific part(Scientific committee) and the political part
(Int., Whaling Commision).
I think you should be able to follow several fascinating threads, there.

Of course you may wish to consult second opinions. On Tirpitz they have
the candour to include links to organizations which oppose whaling as well.

Just a tip on stock assessment in general. The yearly stock asessments
are usually not found in peer reviewed journals. The numbers are the
basis for scientific advice to the decicion-makers on the quotas.
(By then, the numbers are "dragged" into the political realm)
Usually the time-factor itself prohibits the peer-reviewing process.
Post-hoc studies and other analyses of previous stock asessment will
however usually be published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

> We all know there are tobacco "researchers" who work very hard to
> convince us that smoking really isn't a problem. Researchers can be the
> most despicable of whores. I guess to really find out I would have to
> do my own investigation but there just isn't the time. (I remain
> focussed on marine turtles)

Again I trust your judgement when you have visited Tirpitz and
compared that information to the various other scources.

After you inquiry I expect the issues you addresses later in your
post should also should become much clearer.
You are absolutely welcome to return to them.

>
> ^ Ursula Keuper-Bennett
> 0 0 Mississauga, Ontario
> /V^\ I I /^V\ Email: how...@io.org
> /V Turtle Trax V\ Visit the Turtle Trax Toon at:
> /V Forever Green V\ http://www.io.org/~bunrab/toon.htm

Cassanders
To distinguish the real from the unreal, one must experience them both.
(S. Gorn's Compendium of rarely used clichés).

Simen Gaure

unread,
Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
In article <4liasc$n9c...@net7b.io.org>, how...@io.org (Ursula
Keuper-Bennett) wrote:

David writes:


>rationalization right on the same page.
>Guilt-free hate is the best hate.
> <http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/seal_hunt/boycott.html>
>Yes, now you can love animals and hate people and feel good about
>all of it!

Went there. Wording clearly aimed at the emotions and therefore my
immediate reaction is to turn my Bullshit Detector to high.

Hmm, not only that. An interesting passage is the following:

"Is it fair to boycott the poorest part of Canada?

Due to the lack of alternative jobs and low educational levels,
poverty has been endemic in this region of Canada even when the
cod fishery and seal hunt were at their height. The sealers will
not suffer economically fromthe boycott as they willcontinue to
be subsidized by Canadian tax-payers whether or not they kill seals."

In light of IWC's recent condemnation of subsidies of sealers, it's
strange that subsidies form a major part of their rationalization
for why boycotting the poorest part of Canada is completely
unproblematic.

--
Simen Gaure, Department of Mathematics, University of Oslo

Simen Gaure

unread,
Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
In article <4lich9$n9c...@net7b.io.org>, how...@io.org (Ursula
Keuper-Bennett) wrote:
[From Int'l Wildlife Coalition's web-server]

"Norway's policy is clear. Ignore the upcoming International
Whaling Commission meeting where they will, once again, be branded a

pirate whaling nation. Cover up the fact that Norway’s own scientific
research is severely flawed, grossly and conveniently over-estimating
the population of minke whales. Wreck the international protection for
whales so they can sell their kill to Japan." Daniel J. Morast

These "scientific" estimates referred to here. Do they show up in
respected scientific literature or just in Norwegian government
documents? How does the international whale community of respected
researchers regard Norwegian "researchers"?

The research shows up in the journal of the International Whaling
Commission and is under close scientific scrutiny.
The "severely flawed" above probably refers to objections which
were raised at the annual IWC meeting in 1994(?) concerning
the 1990 survey, and to a computer
programming error. The programming error turned out to be of
less importance, the other objections have been adressed in a paper
"Effective search width in shipboard surveys of minke whales
in the northeastern Atlantic; concepts and methods", T. Schweder
and G. Hagen (in Developments in Marine Biology, 4, Elsevier,
ISBN 0-444-82070-1), presented to the International Symposium
of Marine Mammals in the North East Atlantic, Nov 29-Dec 1 1994.
As far as I know, these changes have not lead to large
deviations from the original estimates.

To get an idea of what's going on:
When estimating abundance of whales, this is done by what
is called "line transect experiments". This means that one
makes several runs across the area in straight lines and record
whale sightings (distance and direction from the ship, and apparent
course of the whale). Standard line transect experiments are well
known, but there are some deviations in this case.
Mainly that whales are not spotted with absolute certainty.
The further apart from the ship, the less is the probability that
one detects a whale, also whales spend a lot of their time
under water.

This has lead the researchers to estimate the probability that
a whale is sighted. This estimate
has been done with separate experiments.

It has been objected that this probability has been incorrectly
estimated, and also that the data from the observers used to identify
duplicate sightings (the same whale is spotted twice) have been
inadequate due to subjectivity of the observers.

The old measure of the probability (sometimes referred to as g(0),
i.e. the probability of detecting a whale at the line, i.e. at zero
distance) has now been replaced (I believe, I haven't seen this
year's report) by what is called "Effective Search Width", a
probability measure which covers the entire area visible from
the ship (i.e. it's not extrapolated from g(0)).

The subjectivity of the observers has also been adressed in
the paper, with a new automated procedure (which incidentally
agrees well with the old method.)

In short, Morast's "severely flawed" is not founded in reality,
and at the very least, not up to date.


Here is the other quote from the website:

"I presume that there is currently being done a lot of work
in Norway to try to find further factors which could bring the [minke
whale] abundance estimate back up to the old level. But I have also
identified additional factors which, if they are taken into account,
would reduce the abundance estimate to about 40,000." Dr. Justin Cooke
(Researchers have concluded that zero animals can be caught if the
population is under 50,000.)"

Dr. Justin Cooke's name was blued and I followed the link figuring it
would explain who he is and what institution he respresents but all I
got was "Cooke is one of the world’s most famous whale researchers He
has 15 years behind him in the IWC,"

You should definitely contact Mr. Cooke about the quote above.
Unfortunately I don't know where he resides.
You might try and contact the Int'l Whaling Commission to
hear whether they know anything about this.

For more information on whaling, try the web-site
<http://tirpitz.ibg.uit.no/WWWW/ss.html>

David S. Eitelbach

unread,
Apr 24, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/24/96
to
In <4liasc$n9c...@net7b.io.org> how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett)
wrote:

> In article <317d7b8d....@165.113.1.21>,
> dse...@crl.com (David S. Eitelbach) wrote:

[...]

> >And, shoppers, you can go right on to see Newfoundlander sealers
> >demonized as savage, vicious brutes as well...
>
> > <http://www.webcom.com/~iwcwww/seal_hunt/hunt.html>
>
> Went there to check it out. Photo of cute whitecoat. Thought there
> would be a photo of the Newfoundlander skinning and grabbing for the

> genitals only to find it was a female. No photo. [...]

Yes, no photo. Mr. Best paints a picture in the reader's imagination,
using only words.

Still, on April 18, in the "1996 seal hunt unqualified success" thread,
Mr. Best threw down the gauntlet to Stig (in Newfoundland):

"We use video and stills of the seal hunt to 'sell' our view that the
seal hunt is a cruel and barbaric practice that ought to be ended.

"I challenge you to use the same, accurate and truthful pictures of
the slaughter to 'sell' your seal products."

But, as Ursula Keuper-Bennett notes, there is no photo of the "slaughter"
on Mr. Best's International Wildlife Coalition web server.

Ursula Keuper-Bennett

unread,
Apr 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/25/96
to
In article <317e6ada...@165.113.1.21>,

dse...@crl.com (David S. Eitelbach) wrote:
>In <4liasc$n9c...@net7b.io.org> how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett)
>wrote:
>
>But, as Ursula Keuper-Bennett notes, there is no photo of the
"slaughter"
>on Mr. Best's International Wildlife Coalition web server.

Yeah.. but let's face it. It didn't come as a surprise because I think
anyone who tried to photograph that would have to use an
ultra-deluxe-flux-capacitor-mega-resolution telephoto lens.

I got a feeling no anti-sealer photographer would have intact kneecaps
attempting to get such a photo right?

Ursula Keuper-Bennett

unread,
Apr 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/25/96
to
In article <317EAE...@auste.imr.no>,
Anders Jelmert <Anders....@auste.imr.no> wrote:

> Again I trust your judgement when you have visited Tirpitz and
> compared that information to the various other scources.
>
> After you inquiry I expect the issues you addresses later in
your
> post should also should become much clearer.
> You are absolutely welcome to return to them.


Anders. I am a teacher and today we had parent interviews til almost 9
pm. It is now 10:35 here and I've been on the Net too long. Your
message deserves a decent response and I just want to let you know I
have saved your message but it will have to wait til tomorrow. I
scanned it quickly and yes, I am interested in objective information and
I usually turn to respected scientific literature for that.

I have to warn you that it usually takes me a couple of months of
intensive netsurfing before I figure I have a remote idea of what is
going on.

Best and good night.

David S. Eitelbach

unread,
Apr 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/25/96
to
In <4lk45q$sic...@net7a.io.org> how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett)
wrote:

> In article <317e6ada...@165.113.1.21>,
> dse...@crl.com (David S. Eitelbach) wrote:
>
> >But, as Ursula Keuper-Bennett notes, there is no photo of the
> >"slaughter" on Mr. Best's International Wildlife Coalition web server.
>
> Yeah.. but let's face it. It didn't come as a surprise because I think
> anyone who tried to photograph that would have to use an
> ultra-deluxe-flux-capacitor-mega-resolution telephoto lens.
>
> I got a feeling no anti-sealer photographer would have intact kneecaps
> attempting to get such a photo right?

That might explain then why the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society the last
time they lambasted the Canadian seal hunt resorted to using pictures of
sealing brutality that came apparently from Azerbaijan.

<http://www.crl.com/~dseitel/sealpix.html>

It wouldn't explain why Mr. Best didn't put up on his demonizing webserver
portions of the "videos and stills of the seal hunt" that he said he has.

Ursula Keuper-Bennett

unread,
Apr 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/25/96
to
In article <Simen.Gaure-24...@mattemac1.uio.no>,
Simen...@math.uio.no (Simen Gaure) wrote:


Thanks Simen for the careful explanation re. estimating abundance. The
same problems arise when trying to estimate marine turtle populations in
foraging areas.

Simen then wrote:
>
>You should definitely contact Mr. Cooke about the quote above.
>Unfortunately I don't know where he resides.
>You might try and contact the Int'l Whaling Commission to
>hear whether they know anything about this.

I guess I can do a web email search. I am just loathe to get distracted
from my turtle readings and investigations though.

Simen then wrote:
>
>For more information on whaling, try the web-site
><http://tirpitz.ibg.uit.no/WWWW/ss.html>

I will read the site over the weekend. At this point, I am more
interested in Norwegian whaling than Nfld sealing. It doesn't appear to
me that the seal population is in any immediate danger of collapse. I
would only be wondering right now if government welfare cheques still go
to sealers who are presently celebrating the money they made and whether
monthly benefits will be modified accordingly. (Fact is, I am not sure
what bucks the average sealer even made off the hunt. I might be
sweating the small stuff here and appear mean-spirited and stingy.
Anyone know?)

See next message re. Norwegian whaling, please.

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

unread,
Apr 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/25/96
to
In article <4lk45q$sic...@net7a.io.org>, how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett) writes:
> In article <317e6ada...@165.113.1.21>,
> dse...@crl.com (David S. Eitelbach) wrote:
>>In <4liasc$n9c...@net7b.io.org> how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett)
>>wrote:
>>
>>But, as Ursula Keuper-Bennett notes, there is no photo of the
> "slaughter"
>>on Mr. Best's International Wildlife Coalition web server.
>
> Yeah.. but let's face it. It didn't come as a surprise because I think
> anyone who tried to photograph that would have to use an
> ultra-deluxe-flux-capacitor-mega-resolution telephoto lens.
>
> I got a feeling no anti-sealer photographer would have intact kneecaps
> attempting to get such a photo right?


By this you're insinuating that sealers, or others, would do physical harm
to the anti-sealing photographer. This is stereotyping at its worst.
sealers are no more likely to use violence to make their case against their
opponents than you are. Where did you get this notion? Paul watson, one of
the most vehement anti-sealing animal rightists spent several weeks last
year in Newfoundland while he was standing trial on charges of endangering
lives on the high seas (he was convicted). He roamed free around our city,
unhampered and unharassed. He's not worth the hassle of getting upset.
Neither would be his (or others) photographers. We are not, as a rule, a
violent people in Newfoundland.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

Alan Macnow

unread,
Apr 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/25/96
to
FROM: Alan Macnow
Consultant, Japan Whaling Association

Dr. Justin Cooke has money links to the International Fund for Animal
Welfare, the World Wildlife Fund and, reportedly, Greenpeace.

Mr. Best's organization, the International Wildlife Coalition, was
spun off from the International Fund for Animal Welfare.

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

unread,
Apr 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/25/96
to
In article <4ll1n9$12c8...@net7b.io.org>, how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett) writes:

> I will read the site over the weekend. At this point, I am more
> interested in Norwegian whaling than Nfld sealing. It doesn't appear to
> me that the seal population is in any immediate danger of collapse. I
> would only be wondering right now if government welfare cheques still go
> to sealers who are presently celebrating the money they made and whether
> monthly benefits will be modified accordingly. (Fact is, I am not sure
> what bucks the average sealer even made off the hunt. I might be
> sweating the small stuff here and appear mean-spirited and stingy.
> Anyone know?)

See my previous post re. sealers and welfare. The average sealer can expect
somehwere in the order of $2,000-$3,000 from this year's hunt. There are
about 4,000 sealers.

Dave Wheeler

unread,
Apr 25, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/25/96
to
-=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-

pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
pm> Newsgroups: talk.environment

> pm> Sealing will generate $10 million to $15 million this year in the


> pm> Newfoundland economy.
>
> This is an unpublished, unattributed, unsupported claim
> that Mr. Stig allegedly heard from some seal killer.
> It is contradicted by the seal marketing study conducted
> by the government, among many other facts.

pm> This is the estimate of the president of the Canadian Sealers
pm> Association.

When? Where? Who was present? Where published?

Then again, perhaps the chief seal killer whispered it
in Mr. Stig's ear alone.

Of course, just giving the seal killers the subsidy money
would also "generate $10 to $15 million this year in the
Newfoundland economy" depending on how far you want to follow
the money.

In fact, the only relevant figure is the amount paid to the
seal killers. Whether they get it by killing or by sitting
on their asses, the money has the same economic benefit following
it through people's hands.

pm> real! The seal market study conducted by A government (not THE
pm> government) is old -- if it ever did have validity.

The study was published in November, 1994. As Mr. Stig is
usually fond of pointing out, it was paid for by the government
of the Northwest Territories. That government had every incentive
to identify seal markets, and the report identified the penis
trade as the only viable market. And, of course, it is the most
recent published seal marketing study.

Here is an excerpt from the government report.

From "Animal People", April 1995, page 10:

" A seal marketing strategy report researched for the Canadian
government by RT & Associates, issued last November, confirmed
that penises are the only parts of seals now in any demand.

Newfoundland sealers sold 10,024 penises last year to Asian
aphrodisiac merchants for about $75,000. US - but that was more
than half of the total Canadian return from sealing. And even that
market is drooping.

'The market for seal penises is confined almost exclusively to
Hong Kong and is limited to approximately 20,000 organs a year,'
the report said. ' Larger organs are preferred, and Norway has
captured almost 50% of the market, shipping approximately 8,000
last year. The average price paid to sealers for a seal penis over
10 inches long was $26.; seven to ten inches long was $20.'

The report found no viable market for seal meat, noting that while the
Chinese will eat it at 50 cents a pound, it can't be shipped to China
for under $1.00 a pound. Prospects for selling seal meat as animal
feed were written off, as was most of the possible seal oil market.
Seal fur markets in both Europe and Canada were deemed 'poor', while
fur demand in Asia was said to logistically difficult to supply.

Meanwhile, the report noted, ' Since 1985, the Canadian government
has spent between $8 and $10 million on various sealing initiatives
in Newfoundland.' plus more in other provinces. "

David S. Eitelbach

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

In <281_960...@salata.com> dave.w...@salata.com (Dave Wheeler)
wrote:

> pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca (Stig (in Newfoundland)):


>
> > pm> Sealing will generate $10 million to $15 million this year

> > pm> in the Newfoundland economy.

> >
> > This is an unpublished, unattributed, unsupported claim
> > that Mr. Stig allegedly heard from some seal killer.
> > It is contradicted by the seal marketing study conducted
> > by the government, among many other facts.
>
> pm> This is the estimate of the president of the Canadian Sealers
> pm> Association.
>
> When? Where? Who was present? Where published?

"Who wrote the mailing? Who sent it? When did they send it?
What was their purpose? When did you receive it? What was
the context? What did they mean by it? Which part did you
reference? What is the quote? Who wrote the quote? What
was their purpose? Was it typed or handwritten? Did it have
pictures? Who took the pictures? Were they paid? Who paid
them? Who paid you? Who pays the pope?"

© Copyright, Dave Wheeler, Oct. 6, 1995, talk.environment

Seem familiar?

ROFLMAO!

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

What do you mean by "spun off". Is it the same kind of spin off that
resulted in Paul watson splitting from Greenpeace? Did Stephen Best and
Brian Davies (IFAW) have a tiff? Let's hear some of their history.

Thanks in advance.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

In article <281_960...@salata.com>, dave.w...@salata.com (Dave Wheeler) writes:
> -=> Quoting pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca to All <=-
>
> pm> From: pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
> pm> Newsgroups: talk.environment
>
> > pm> Sealing will generate $10 million to $15 million this year in the
> > pm> Newfoundland economy.
> >
> > This is an unpublished, unattributed, unsupported claim
> > that Mr. Stig allegedly heard from some seal killer.
> > It is contradicted by the seal marketing study conducted
> > by the government, among many other facts.
>
> pm> This is the estimate of the president of the Canadian Sealers
> pm> Association.
>
> When? Where? Who was present? Where published?

Mark Small, president of the Canadian Sealers Association, said this in an
interview aired on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation nightly news
program Here and Now in Newfoundland. The CBC is the national public
broadcaster in Canada.

Mr. Small also repeated the figures on NTV,
the CTV affiliate, their nightly news. CTV is the national, private-sector
television network in Canada.

I guess the next thing we can expect is an attack on Mr. Small from Wheeler.

The fact that sealing is a growing, viable industry must boil his butt. But
he had better get used to it.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

Stephen Best

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:

>> I got a feeling no anti-sealer photographer would have intact kneecaps
>> attempting to get such a photo right?
>
>
>By this you're insinuating that sealers, or others, would do physical harm
>to the anti-sealing photographer. This is stereotyping at its worst.
>sealers are no more likely to use violence to make their case against their
>opponents than you are.

My colleague Dan Morast had a helicopter completely destroyed by
sealers on the Magdalen Islands, all under the watchful eye of the
Quebec police.

I was in a pickup truck that was stoned by a dozen sealers at Savage
Harbour, Prince Edward Island, and only the intervention of an RCMP
constable stopped the assault.

To prevent me and others, including members of the international
press, from visiting the seal hunt, I have been held captive by
sealers in St. Anthony Nfld. And only the intervention of an RCMP riot
squad of two dozen officers, jetted in from Ottawa, gained us our
freedom.

I have been personally assaulted by sealers in Prince Edward Island,
Newfoundland, and the Magdalen Islands.

I have never assaulted or threatened any person in any of these areas.
And my only purpose was to exercise my human and democratic rights
afforded me as a Canadian citizen.

I have also been party to three court actions pertaining to the seal
hunt: one on false arrest, one to press libel charges against the
Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, and one to challenge under the
Charter of Rights and Freedoms the provisions of the Seal Protection
Regulations that control access to the seal hunt. We won or settled
all the cases in our favor.

The sealing industry, many sealers, and seal hunt proponents --
including sympathetic police officers and fisheries officers -- can be
violent, anti-democratic, and dishonest, as court records attest.

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

In article <3180c0f...@news.inforamp.net>, sb...@inforamp.net (Stephen Best) writes:
> pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:
>
>>> I got a feeling no anti-sealer photographer would have intact kneecaps
>>> attempting to get such a photo right?
>>
>>
>>By this you're insinuating that sealers, or others, would do physical harm
>>to the anti-sealing photographer. This is stereotyping at its worst.
>>sealers are no more likely to use violence to make their case against their
>>opponents than you are.
>
> My colleague Dan Morast had a helicopter completely destroyed by
> sealers on the Magdalen Islands, all under the watchful eye of the
> Quebec police.

When?

> I was in a pickup truck that was stoned by a dozen sealers at Savage
> Harbour, Prince Edward Island, and only the intervention of an RCMP
> constable stopped the assault.

When?

> To prevent me and others, including members of the international
> press, from visiting the seal hunt, I have been held captive by
> sealers in St. Anthony Nfld. And only the intervention of an RCMP riot
> squad of two dozen officers, jetted in from Ottawa, gained us our
> freedom.

When?

> I have been personally assaulted by sealers in Prince Edward Island,
> Newfoundland, and the Magdalen Islands.

Please provide more details, especially about the Newfoundland assaults.

> I have never assaulted or threatened any person in any of these areas.
> And my only purpose was to exercise my human and democratic rights
> afforded me as a Canadian citizen.

No taunting involved, either implicit or explicit, was there Best?

> I have also been party to three court actions pertaining to the seal
> hunt: one on false arrest, one to press libel charges against the
> Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, and one to challenge under the
> Charter of Rights and Freedoms the provisions of the Seal Protection
> Regulations that control access to the seal hunt. We won or settled
> all the cases in our favor.
>
> The sealing industry, many sealers, and seal hunt proponents --
> including sympathetic police officers and fisheries officers -- can be
> violent, anti-democratic, and dishonest, as court records attest.

While your at it, check the docket for trials and convictions of anti-
sealing types for a myriad of illegal and dangerous activities.

In none of the examples above did Best indicate that all he wanted to do
was take photos of seals. yet the original post suggested that someone who
wanted to take photos of seals would be "kneecapped". What Best doesn't
provide is context. Why were people outraged with he and his colleagues ine
ach of these alleged incidents? Was there provocation? Or did this stuff
happen at all?

A regular tactic of some anti-sealing advocates is to incite violence. Then
they use the incidents they incite to suggest that the people involved are
somehow, inherently violent. It's called stereotyping and demonization. But the
problem is, it doesn't work so well any more. sealers and others have
become familiar with the tactic and don't fall into the propaganda trap.
The general public has also become familiar with this fabricated
confrontation technique and with familiarity comes contempt.

Most, if not all, of what Best posts above happened years ago. The St.
Anthony incident, if I recall correctly occurred in the early to mid 1970s.
The seal hunt of that era is different than today, as are the reactions of
sealers, the media and others to the manufactured-drama strategy of some
animal rightists. This is the 1990s, Best. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Stig (in Newfoundland)

Stephen Best

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:


>>>By this you're insinuating that sealers, or others, would do physical harm
>>>to the anti-sealing photographer.

My post was meant to demonstrate that your statement (see above) is
simply factually incorrect, as is so much of what you write. The fact
is many sealers "would do physical harm to anti-sealing
photographers," have done physical harm, and will likely do so in the
future. For any photographer to assume otherwise would be, at the
very least, unwise. Add what you want to the thread to obscure this
fact, but it does not justify sealers assaulting people and destroying
property.

But if I happen to go out and photograph or video the seal hunt again,
which is not unlikely, I'll let the sealers I'm taking pictures of
know what you said and how you expect them to conduct themselves.

As you question my portrayal of events at the seal hunt, you should
bear in mind (correct me if I'm wrong) that I'm the only person
participating in this thread who has actually witnessed the seal hunt
first hand, witnessed it, in fact, over many years off Prince Edward
Island, off the Magdalen Islands in the Gulf, and off Newfoundland at
the Front, the last time on April 18, 1989. The hunt is practiced
today exactly as it was six years ago; the regulations have not
changed.

Your accounts of sealing are all second hand, served up by the trade
and pro-sealing government sources. You have no idea of what you are
talking about.

Alan Macnow

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

FROM: Alan Macnow
Consultant, Japan Whaling Association

I don't think there was a tiff. I just think Dan Morast and Steve
Best decided they could make the same kind of money in the U.S. and
Canada that Brian Davies was making with IFAW in Europe.

There also is the possibility that IFAW helped finance the two in
order to create another animal protection "brand name", the same
as commercial companies do when they want to add another profit line.

IFAW, after all, also formed GLOBE, and probably some other "environmental"
organizations.


S. Jordan

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

In article <1996Apr26.104649.1@leif>, pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
> In article <3180c0f...@news.inforamp.net>, sb...@inforamp.net (Stephen Best) writes:
>> pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:
>>
>>>> I got a feeling no anti-sealer photographer would have intact kneecaps
>>>> attempting to get such a photo right?
>>>
>>>
>>>By this you're insinuating that sealers, or others, would do physical harm
>>>to the anti-sealing photographer. This is stereotyping at its worst.
>>>sealers are no more likely to use violence to make their case against their
>>>opponents than you are.
>>
>> My colleague Dan Morast had a helicopter completely destroyed by
>> sealers on the Magdalen Islands, all under the watchful eye of the
>> Quebec police.
>
> When?
>
>> I was in a pickup truck that was stoned by a dozen sealers at Savage
>> Harbour, Prince Edward Island, and only the intervention of an RCMP
>> constable stopped the assault.
>
> When?
>
>> To prevent me and others, including members of the international
>> press, from visiting the seal hunt, I have been held captive by
>> sealers in St. Anthony Nfld. And only the intervention of an RCMP riot
>> squad of two dozen officers, jetted in from Ottawa, gained us our
>> freedom.
>
> When?

etc.

Nice try Stig.

You lost this one big time...

Steve J.


pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

In article <3180f2c3...@news.inforamp.net>, sb...@inforamp.net (Stephen Best) writes:

> My post was meant to demonstrate that your statement (see above) is

[blather deleted]

> Your accounts of sealing are all second hand, served up by the trade
> and pro-sealing government sources. You have no idea of what you are
> talking about.


First, Best has conveniently failed to answer any of the questions I asked.
Why? Because some of the incidents he alleged happened (and I believe some of
them may well have) actually happened over two decades ago. He's using
revisionist history to make a present case. He should move over the
alt.revisionism to find some soul mates. C'mon, Stephen, won't you answer
the questions?

Secondly, he has observed sealing through the tinted glasses of an avowed
anti-seal hunt advocate. I'm sure everything he posts is factual and
unbiased, just like every other posting of every other anti-seal hunt
advocate is factual and unbiased (;-). It doesn't matter if he's two feet away,
as he claims he has been, or the two thousand miles away he actually is
from the hunt (and from which lofty perch he sits pontificating on the seal
hunt every day. He only sees what he wants to see.

Lastly, he suggests I have no idea what I am talking (sic) about (maybe he
meant "typing" about). I'll leave it to the unbiased readership of this
group to make that judgement and continue to post information on the seal hunt
from a variety of sources, although my main source is the news media (and one
would expect them to be slightly less biased than avowed advocates for either
side of the seal hunt issue). It's certainly better than his "best" source.

Stig (in Newfoundland)

"Careful, we don't want to lose our lunch over this.

Paul Roberts

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to
Alan Macnow <ama...@igc.apc.org> wrote:
>FROM: Alan Macnow
> Consultant, Japan Whaling Association
>
>Dr. Justin Cooke has money links to the International Fund for Animal
>Welfare, the World Wildlife Fund and, reportedly, Greenpeace.

A curious complaint, coming as it does from a "consultant" to the
Japan Whaling Association.

Paul

David S. Eitelbach

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

In <1996Apr26.145643.1@leif> pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:

> In article <3180f2c3...@news.inforamp.net>, sb...@inforamp.net
> (Stephen Best) writes:

[...]

> > Your accounts of sealing are all second hand, served up by the trade
> > and pro-sealing government sources. You have no idea of what you are
> > talking about.
>
>
> First, Best has conveniently failed to answer any of the questions I asked.
> Why?

Because he's a propagandist and what he's good at is appealing to people's
emotions -- not anwering questions.

Even more of a reason may be because you came off as insensitive, even
callous, Stig.

> Because some of the incidents he alleged happened (and I believe some of
> them may well have) actually happened over two decades ago.

There have been more recent incidents involving Watson, have there not?

> He's using revisionist history to make a present case. He should move
> over the alt.revisionism to find some soul mates. C'mon, Stephen, won't
> you answer the questions?

You're not handling this well here, Stig. In fact, you're making his point
for him.



> Secondly, he has observed sealing through the tinted glasses of an avowed
> anti-seal hunt advocate.

He certainly does have tinted glasses. Most people in this discussion do.
Nobody but a fool reads without discounting.

Still, if those things happened to him, and I bet they did, they are
extremely disturbing. They should be condemned, not trivialized, Stig.

These violent incidents would also explain to some extent Mr. Best's
animus, on a human level, at least to me. If those things happened to me,
I would be angry and bitter for some time. Nothing angers me more than
someone threatening my physical safety. I never forget it when it happens.

Mr. Best is first and foremost a human being. He has the same fears about
his physical safety that all of us have. Imagine sitting in a pickup truck
and being stoned, for crying out loud! I'd have probably wet my pants.

Mr. Best's anger is as understandable as that of the Newfoundlanders who
felt their livelihood threatened. The physical violence of the
Newfoundlanders directed at Mr. Best is as reprehensible as the
metaphorical violence directed by Mr. Best at Newfoundlanders (and
Norwegians) on his demonizing web server. But it does not justify it.

It's all so very sad.

David S. Eitelbach

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

In <3180f2c3...@news.inforamp.net> sb...@inforamp.net (Stephen Best)
wrote:

> pmo...@kean.ucs.mun.ca wrote:
>
> >>>By this you're insinuating that sealers, or others, would do physical harm
> >>>to the anti-sealing photographer.

[...]

> As you question my portrayal of events at the seal hunt, you should
> bear in mind (correct me if I'm wrong) that I'm the only person
> participating in this thread who has actually witnessed the seal hunt
> first hand, witnessed it, in fact, over many years off Prince Edward
> Island, off the Magdalen Islands in the Gulf, and off Newfoundland at
> the Front, the last time on April 18, 1989. The hunt is practiced
> today exactly as it was six years ago; the regulations have not

> changed. [...]

I believe what we are discussing is the aberrant behavior of some sealers,
or, more precisely, whether or not that aberrant behavior is typical or
not typical of sealers.

The fact that the regulations haven't changed in six years tells us
nothing about the likelihood of continued aberrant behavior, does it?

David S. Eitelbach

unread,
Apr 26, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/26/96
to

In <4lree2$q...@news.informix.com> prob...@lynx.informix.com (Paul
Roberts) wrote:

At least he's up front about it -- he puts it at the top of every post he
makes, for the whole world to see. He never hides what he is, unlike some.

Anyway we weren't talking just about having links, but rather about having
links no one can easily see. That's the critical difference.

Ursula Keuper-Bennett

unread,
Apr 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/27/96
to

Re. photographing the hunt, I wrote:
>>
>> Yeah.. but let's face it. It didn't come as a surprise because I
think
>> anyone who tried to photograph that would have to use an
>> ultra-deluxe-flux-capacitor-mega-resolution telephoto lens.
>>
>> I got a feeling no anti-sealer photographer would have intact
kneecaps
>> attempting to get such a photo right?


To which, you, Stig, wrote:
>
>
>By this you're insinuating that sealers, or others, would do physical
harm

>to the anti-sealing photographer. This is stereotyping at its worst.
>sealers are no more likely to use violence to make their case against
their
>opponents than you are.


I am NOT stereotyping sealers here. What percent of our Canadian
population has a criminal record and is prone to violence? 5%? 10?
Let's say 1% which is laughably low but let's use it anyway.

Statistically then on that ice floe, 1% of the sealers (just part of our
regular Canadian population) would have a tendency to handle frustration
through violence.

A photographer in their faces, documenting the blood and guts you admit
go on in hunt would threaten these people and therefore piss them off
royally. Sorry Stig, I am not going to buy your implication that I am
stereotyping. That means you are trying to convince me only Boy Scouts
and Girl Guids are on these floes.

Won't wash. What a photographer would be is a THREAT... both to the
sealers' livelihoods but also to the reputation of the province. I am
NOT stereotyping these people. I am not maligning them.

I am saying that a small percent of any society has a violent element
and at least a few are on those floes with hair trigger sensitivities.
And even me, if I were sufficiently provoked and threatened would aim
for the kneecaps. (But I am short)

Ursula Keuper-Bennett

unread,
Apr 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/27/96
to

Gentlemen (don't know if ladies are in this thread):

I have decided to pull out of this sealing thread. I am having a tough
time with it. My husband is Newfoundland born and raised. I have had
the pleasure of visiting the Rock on two occasions.

Newfoundlanders are a remarkable and generous people and I admire them
greatly. Their lives are harsh. They are tenacious and face hardship
with a humour I couldn't possibly summon.

During this thread, I have tried to debate objectively but I have found
I have raised some points I was loathe to do. I can't go further
because it is hard to be objective when you like a people so much. The
photographer on the ice flo did for me.

It was the second time Stig had suggested I am stereotyping
Newfoundlanders. It is hard to debate facts objectively and still try
to be fair to both sides. I really do believe photographers would have
a tough time and I stand by that. But it has occurred to me that people
not reading this thread carefully might think I have something against
the people of this fine province.

Rather than take that chance any further, I am dropping out of this
debate. I can't contribute objectively trying to be fair to both sides
when I love a Newfoundlander. I realize that now.

I wish both sides well. Can't say it was fun but it was informative and
certainly interesting while it lasted.

Best and take care of yourselves.

Ursula Keuper-Bennett

unread,
Apr 27, 1996, 3:00:00 AM4/27/96
to

In article <APC&1'0'58665539'a...@igc.apc.org>,

Alan Macnow <ama...@igc.apc.org> wrote:
>FROM: Alan Macnow
> Consultant, Japan Whaling Association
>

Hello Alan,

I have posted this question in talk.environment twice now still haven't
gotten an answer. Perhaps you or Stig missed it because I started a new
thread with the question. Fortunately I have a copy-self file and it
was easy to retrieve. Here it is:

[old message begins]

Newsgroups: talk.environment
From: how...@io.org (Ursula Keuper-Bennett)
Subject: Previous question not yet answered.
Organization: Turtle Trax
Message-ID: <4ll0da$12c8...@net7b.io.org>
Lines: 19
Status: O

Last night I came home tired and didn't notice an important question I
had asked in the thread "Norwegian Whaling Question or two" still hadn't
been answered.

I copied this from my keepers file and offer it again. I said:

I am not sure the Minke thing is that clear. The seals are in Canada
are a Canadian resource. The take is by Canadians only. If Minkes stay
only in Norwegian waters then the issue is like the seals, can the
population sustain the take?

But if the whales (as I suspect) roam in international waters, then any
nation has a right to that resource. What would happen if other nations
decided they wanted the revenue from these animals?

That right now is where I want to stop and would appreciate an answer.


Regards

[old message ends]


(Posting this again, is now the third time I have asked this question
and not received a response).