The Reality of PRAYER and PRAXIS - Krishna and Trishna, conjoined twins, successfully seperated
fasgnadh
"Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
twins Krishna and Trishna"
"AN emotional Moira Kelly has told of her joy at the moment
she saw twins Trishna and Krishna lying in separate cots
after surgeons successfully separated the pair after a
marathon operation.
Everyone in Australia has followed the story of Krishna
and Trishna, the Conjoined twins who were given a 25%
chance of a successful separation.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/gallery-e6frf7jo-1225798259687?page=4
On the eve of the
operation Moira Kelly asked people to pray for the children.
Now to most of the world that seems like a reasonable thing, but
to atheists it is like Holy Water on Vampires!
But Lets be very clear what is happening here.
Moira Kelly is not standing by the twins bed expecting God to
miraculously transform them.
She is a rational, caring, practical theist who has organised
for the twins to be brought to Australia where amazingly skilled
doctors using the best technology worked for hours to successfully
complete the operation.
"Speaking outside the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne,
the twins' guardian praised surgeons who separated the
twin girls who were joined at the head.
"Moira and the Children First team sincerely thank the public,
the medical and religious communities and our supporters for
all their prayers and good wishes. During this tense and long
wait for news we have all been overwhelmed by the generosity
of spirit of so many people."
For people like Moira, prayer is not a shopping list of desires,
importuning God to perform miracles, it is a spiritual adjunct
to real action in the physical world.
Prayer is a channel to God which focuses the will,
seeks to align behaviour with the divine will, and
activates human energies and capacities.
Through prayer and meditation, believers seek to reflect on
the best way forward.. and then THEY act to bring about change..
Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
and to seek assistance in doing so.
The critical question to be considered is that Moira is motivated
by her faith to bring about miraculous change in the lives of those two
girls, and many others. The means are not supernatural, they are
rational and scientific.. and she thanks the surgeons.. some of whom may
not even be believers.. acknowledging their human skills.
Moira Kelly AO and her Children First Foundation made this happen,
http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/
Moira has been serving humanity since she was 13;
http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/moirakelly.aspx
"Twins recovering well after surgery"
"The 15 nuns at the Missionaries of Charity in Dhaka,
who each helped in raising the twins, prayed for them
as they went into surgery on Monday.
"We prayed from 8am to 8pm," Sister Grace said.
The following day their prayers were answered.
Global interest in the twins has been intense,
with the Royal Children's swamped by media
attention from countries including Japan, Britain
and the US.
Hospital spokeswoman Julie Webber said never before
had there been so much attention."
--
alt.atheism FAQ:
http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source
"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest
"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest
"How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
- Lenin
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest
http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg
tirebiter
This explains the truth of your "reality".
http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/Omni-Impotence.html
---
a.a. #2273
BOfL
And also your reality, so what actually 'is' reality, given you are
both entitled to your views?
BOfL
fasgnadh
> <snip>
The Standard atheist response to any new ideas! B^p
<unsnip>
> fasgnadh wrote:
>>
>> "Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
>> twins Krishna and Trishna"
>>
>> "AN emotional Moira Kelly has told of her joy at the moment
>> she saw twins Trishna and Krishna lying in separate cots
>> after surgeons successfully separated the pair after a
>> marathon operation.
>>
>> Everyone in Australia has followed the story of Krishna
>> and Trishna, the Conjoined twins who were given a 25%
>> chance of a successful separation.
>>
>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/gallery-e6frf7jo-1225798259687?page=4
>>
>> On the eve of the
>> operation Moira Kelly asked people to pray for the children.
>>
>> Now to most of the world that seems like a reasonable thing, but
>> to atheists it is like Holy Water on Vampires!
>>
>> But Lets be very clear what is happening here.
>>
>> Moira Kelly is not standing by the twins bed expecting God to
>> miraculously transform them.
>>
Is that too hard for anyone, apart from tiresomebiter, to understand??
>> She is a rational, caring, practical theist who has organised
>> for the twins to be brought to Australia where amazingly skilled
>> doctors using the best technology worked for hours to successfully
>> complete the operation.
>>
>> "Speaking outside the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne,
>> the twins' guardian praised surgeons who separated the
>> twin girls who were joined at the head.
>>
>> "Moira and the Children First team sincerely thank the public,
>> the medical and religious communities and our supporters for
>> all their prayers and good wishes. During this tense and long
>> wait for news we have all been overwhelmed by the generosity
>> of spirit of so many people."
>>
>>
>> For people like Moira, prayer is not a shopping list of desires,
>> importuning God to perform miracles, it is a spiritual adjunct
>> to real action in the physical world.
>>
>> Prayer is a channel to God which focuses the will,
>> seeks to align behaviour with the divine will, and
>> activates human energies and capacities.
>>
>> Through prayer and meditation, believers seek to reflect on
>> the best way forward.. and then THEY act to bring about change..
>>
>> Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
>> and to seek assistance in doing so.
Again, is there anyone, apart from tiresomebiter, who doesn't grasp
that simple, and clear English expression? B^]
>> The critical question to be considered is that Moira is motivated
>> by her faith to bring about miraculous change in the lives of those two
>> girls, and many others. The means are not supernatural, they are
>> rational and scientific.. and she thanks the surgeons.. some of whom may
>> not even be believers.. acknowledging their human skills.
>>
>>
>> Moira Kelly AO and her Children First Foundation made this happen,
>>
>> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/
>>
>> Moira has been serving humanity since she was 13;
>>
>> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/moirakelly.aspx
>>
>>
>> "Twins recovering well after surgery"
>>
Does it say "Twins recovered after prayer without surgery"?
No. but Tiresomebiter and all the other brainless atheist
dogmatists can't understand ANYTHING but primitive fundie notions!
>>
>> "The 15 nuns at the Missionaries of Charity in Dhaka,
>> who each helped in raising the twins, prayed for them
>> as they went into surgery on Monday.
>>
>> "We prayed from 8am to 8pm," Sister Grace said.
>>
>> The following day their prayers were answered.
>>
>> Global interest in the twins has been intense,
>> with the Royal Children's swamped by media
>> attention from countries including Japan, Britain
>> and the US.
>>
>> Hospital spokeswoman Julie Webber said never before
>> had there been so much attention."
>
> This explains the truth of your "reality".
You are not dealing with reality, you could not refute
a single fact in my post.. you are dealing with CARTOON
responses to your OWN IMAGINATION;
> http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/Omni-Impotence.html
Clearly you didn't read the post and are talking to yourself,
and your own stupid, dogmatic, irrelevant STRAWMAN STEREOTYPES!
Next atheist dimwit please! B^D
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> tirebiter wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > fasgnadh wrote:
> >> [snip]
> [snip]
> > This explains the truth of your "reality".
When Fasgnadh snips others, he deserves to get equally snipped himself.
I have left one line of tirebiter's and none of Fasgnadh's, which seems
equitable.
philosophy
You are so full of crap.
Yes, all Australia watched and held their breaths.
It was the Doctors who did this - not your stupid sky fairy and
not your praying.
I give the doctors and their extended team full credit for all of
this. They have worked for two years to make this happen.
There has been input from specialists of different types all
over the world.
Get over your nonsense.
Give the credit to who deserves it.
If your bloody sky fairy existed, they wouldn't have been
born that way in the first place.
That's the reality.............
Sheez!
>
> Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
> and to seek assistance in doing so.
Bullshit
>
> The critical question to be considered is that Moira is motivated
> by her faith to bring about miraculous change in the lives of those two
> girls, and many others. The means are not supernatural, they are
> rational and scientific.. and she thanks the surgeons.. some of whom may
> not even be believers.. acknowledging their human skills.
>
> Moira Kelly AO and her Children First Foundation made this happen,
>
> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/
>
> Moira has been serving humanity since she was 13;
>
> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/moirakelly.aspx
>
> "Twins recovering well after surgery"
>
> "The 15 nuns at the Missionaries of Charity in Dhaka,
> who each helped in raising the twins, prayed for them
> as they went into surgery on Monday.
>
> "We prayed from 8am to 8pm," Sister Grace said.
>
> The following day their prayers were answered.
>
> Global interest in the twins has been intense,
> with the Royal Children's swamped by media
> attention from countries including Japan, Britain
> and the US.
>
> Hospital spokeswoman Julie Webber said never before
> had there been so much attention."
>
> --
>
> alt.atheism FAQ:
>
> http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/
>
> http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl...
>
> "Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
> -Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
>
> http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest
>
> http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest
>
> "Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
> - Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
>
> http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest
>
> http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest
>
> "How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
> - Lenin
>
> http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest
>
> http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-fa...
fasgnadh
> fasgnadh wrote:
>>
>> "Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
>> twins Krishna and Trishna"
>>
Most people are.. but not the atheists! 8^o
So why is that? Lets see what they think the issue is...
>> "AN emotional Moira Kelly has told of her joy at the moment
>> she saw twins Trishna and Krishna lying in separate cots
>> after surgeons successfully separated the pair after a
>> marathon operation.
>>
>> Everyone in Australia has followed the story of Krishna
>> and Trishna, the Conjoined twins who were given a 25%
>> chance of a successful separation.
>>
That was the MEDICAL TEAMS assessment of the chances of success! 8^o
>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/gallery-e6frf7jo-1225798259687?page=4
>>
>> On the eve of the
>> operation Moira Kelly asked people to pray for the children.
>>
>> Now to most of the world that seems like a reasonable thing, but
>> to atheists it is like Holy Water on Vampires!
>>
And look at their response to see how right I was! 8^o
While the whole world focused on the children, hoping for them
to beat the odds, what do the atheists focus on.. ? (because this
is critical to why atheism neither inspires or sustains great and
enduring civilisations.. merely grubby, depressing, failed tyrannies
full of misery, despair and death!!!
>> But Lets be very clear what is happening here.
>>
>> Moira Kelly is not standing by the twins bed expecting God to
>> miraculously transform them.
>>
She ACTS to transform the world FOR THE BETTER!
Unlike the atheists she has a clear idea of what it could be,
sees the problems with CRYSTAL CLARITY, acts RATIONALLY to
bring about change and asks others to pray.. that is to hold
those children in their hearts, to become aware of their situation,
and to look for opportunities to help!
I'm driving to work, hear a story about her on the ABC radio,
and am moved to send some money.. thousands of others do the same..
I'm an agnostic.. but that doesn't mean I don't believe in
compassion, or would be unwilling to help this woman just because
she's a theist, when clearly that is what MOTIVATES her, and MILLIONS
of others.. compared to atheists.. who don't run a single hospital!!!
B^p Atheists are worthless for anything but whining and wanking
>> She is a rational, caring, practical theist who has organised
>> for the twins to be brought to Australia where amazingly skilled
>> doctors using the best technology worked for hours to successfully
>> complete the operation.
>>
>> "Speaking outside the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne,
>> the twins' guardian praised surgeons who separated the
>> twin girls who were joined at the head.
>>
She didn't sit on her arse and pray for God to miraculously FIX
the twins.. she did the hard work to MAKE A CURE POSSIBLE!!!
And she praised those HUMANS whose skills made it happen!!!
That sure as shit gets MY VOTE.. no matter how much the atheist
shitpigs, who openly advocate murdering people and shitting down their
throats, target me for recognising what is praiseworthy.. and PRAISING IT!
>> "Moira and the Children First team sincerely thank the public,
>> the medical and religious communities and our supporters for
>> all their prayers and good wishes. During this tense and long
>> wait for news we have all been overwhelmed by the generosity
>> of spirit of so many people."
>>
>>
>> For people like Moira, prayer is not a shopping list of desires,
>> importuning God to perform miracles, it is a spiritual adjunct
>> to real action in the physical world.
The atheists don't seem to understand this.. they are like whining
infants who think prayer is throwing a tantrum to get your way..
or begging for Mummy to do it all for them!!! how pathetic they are!
>> Prayer is a channel to God which focuses the will,
>> seeks to align behaviour with the divine will, and
>> activates human energies and capacities.
>>
> <snip>
The classic response of IRRATIONAL, LYING, SLANDERING
atheists who can't DISPUTE a single thing I said, and so
they have to SNIP IT, so they can MISREPRESENT IT, and
then wank their own fantasy straw man arguments...
and what is really remarkable, is that they are NOT
EVEN INTERESTED IN THE STORY.. THEIR OBSESSION
IS To TARGET ME!!!! B^D I am their NEMESIS:
> Gee and only yesterday you were an agnostic!
Agnostic - one who believes that neither the existence
nor the non-existence, of God can be PROVEN CONCLUSIVELY.
Why do you assume that means an agnostic cannot discuss
other people's stated beliefs, especially when those
beliefs motivate them to commit extraordinary acts
of compassion, which is why it inspires and sustains
all the great and enduring civilisations.. and you are
left demonstrating that for atheists, who inspire nothing but
death and despair in every one of their shithole states,
your obsessive goal is ME.
We have all known for some time that atheists are completely
dominated by my powerful intellect and the incisive razor
of reason with which I have eviscerated the hate-filled dogma
of your fatuous cult.. B^]
So.. you all think the subject is ME.. how flattering. B^D
Thanks for conceding the rest of my post without a twitter of
objection.. lets move quickly to crush your latest CONFUSION; B^]
> <begin quote>
> From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com.au>
> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Newsgroups:
>
alt.atheism,alt.agnosticism,talk.atheism,alt.atheism.satire,alt.usenet.kooks,aus.politics,alt.flame,aus.culture.true-
> blue,alt.fan.warlord
> Subject: Re: Atheism is the real farce behind the mass murders of
> history-
> "Warlord Steve" is a classic example of violent atheist psychopaths
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:32:05 GMT
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 58.161.121.192
> X-Complaints-To: ab...@bigpond.net.au
> X-Trace: news-server.bigpond.net.au 1258626725 58.161.121.192 (Thu, 19
> Nov 2009 21:32:05 EST)
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:32:05 EST
> Organization: BigPond Internet Services
>
> phull'o'sophistry defended the atheist psychopaths with MORE lies:
> <snip>
> ...
> > god would have also made atheists.
>
> What's this God you are talking about, Boy..? I'm an agnostic.
> <end >
He had called me a theist, just another irrational atheist ASSUMPTION,
like the one you have made.. ;-) so when HE made a claim about what
his God does with atheists, I explained I'm an agnostic and asked him
about this God of his.. he ran away.
Fasgnadh: 1 Atheists: 0
Now you seem to be confused about what an agnostic is,
what they may or may not believe (beliefs are different from
PROOF, in case you atheists don't grasp the logical distinction,
as there are many common understanding you seem not to grasp. B^]
And you seem to assume that talking about God means one believes
in God. If that were true you atheists really should stop
talking about a spaghetti monster.. as the laughter at you is growing
louder!
> So Fags What is this God you are talking about?
Atheists are ALWAYS asking about God! And then they always
ignore what they are told!
I believe Moira is a Christian, so the God she believes in,
the one which clearly inspires acts of great compassion, rather
than the terror, torture and murder which atheism inspires in every
atheist regime is Jehovah/YHWH/Allah/Brahman/Wakonda/Ahura Mazda...
Now how does knowing that, and telling you about it, make me less of an
agnostic.. pray tell?
If you want to know more about God, I'm afraid I can't help you,
God is an ineffable essence, beyond human description, unknowable..
all we can know is the Manifestations of God, apparently...
and none of you have ever been in the slightest interested in
hearing what they have to say because you are all fundie atheist
dogmatists who have made your minds up.
As an agnostic I cannot help you in your insatiable obsession,
to have someone PROVE the God you clearly hunger for, exists.
What I have done, consistently, is observed the HISTORICAL
REALITY, that societies inspired and sustained by belief in
God are far superior to those degraded and destroyed by
atheist irrationality; the USSR, Maoist China, Pol Pot's
Cambodia, and North Korea.. all the places that shoot people
for trying to escape.... B^D
As all you atheists admit, it is the free, open, democratic and
pluralist MAJORITY RELIGIOUS societies.. the ones which BELIEVERS
have evolved.. which you choose to live in, because they are far
superior to any of the atheist shitholes that have EVER existed!
Q.E.D.
Can I help you with any more of your confusion about reality? B^]
> Mark.
I explained at the outset, which you ignorant and dogmatic atheist thugs
pack-attacked me, lying and slandering me because I asked questions
about atheism which embarrassed you all, criticising atheism does
not presuppose a theist viewpoint.. although I am clearly capable
of appreciating the social effectiveness of one.. as do your former
compatriots, the Chinese Communists;
# "With the gradual liberalisation that developed with
# Deng Xiaoping's open door reforms, religion was no
# longer proscribed. In 1982, the constitution was
# amended to allow Chinese people considerable freedom
# of religion."
#
# http://cbbc.org/china_guide/religion.html
#
#
# "At the first world Buddhism forum in East China's Zhejiang
# Province last year, the Chinese government acknowledged
# the active role religion plays in building a harmonious society."
#
# "For example, religious beliefs have helped cut down crime
# to a large extent,"
# http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-02/07/content_802994.htm
There is a clear example of a group of FORMER atheists, still
members of the Communist PArty, who having witnessed the catastrophic
failures of the atheist holocaust, realise that religion is of
enormous social benefit
# "religion has been enjoying a resurgence in China over the
# past 20 years, as Communist Party disapproval has eased"
#
# http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6337627.stm
#
#
# "Religious believers thrice the estimate
# By Wu Jiao (China Daily)
#
# "A survey has found that the number of religious believers
# is three times bigger than the official estimate.
#
# The poll of about 4,500 people, conducted by professors Tong
# Shijun and Liu Zhongyu of Shanghai-based East China Normal
# University from 2005 till recently, found that 31.4 percent
# of Chinese aged 16 and above or about 300 million are religious."
#
# http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-02/07/content_802994.htm
#
# Incredible! in just a few short years the new converts from
# atheism In JUST ONE COUNTRY, far outnumber the slow increase
# in tiny atheist numbers in the rest of the WORLD! B^D
#
# BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAAHAA
You atheists, stuck in your infantile LOOP, always demanding proof of
God, always ignoring the successful civilisations which believe,
and always ignoring the constant failures of atheism!
Can there be greater imbeciles on the planet? B^D
>> Through prayer and meditation, believers seek to reflect on
>> the best way forward.. and then THEY act to bring about change..
>>
>> Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
>> and to seek assistance in doing so.
>>
>> The critical question to be considered is that Moira
>> is motivated by her faith to bring about miraculous
>> change in the lives of those two girls, and many others.
>> The means are not supernatural, they are rational and
>> scientific.. and she thanks the surgeons.. some of whom may
>> not even be believers.. acknowledging their human skills.
>>
Why do atheists react so negatively to a post that is about wonderful
positives?
fasgnadh
fasgnadh wrote:
> tirebiter snipped, ran from and misrepresented, a rational argument:
>
>> <snip>
The Standard atheist response to any new ideas! B^p
<unsnip>
>> fasgnadh wrote:
>>>
>>> "Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
>>> twins Krishna and Trishna"
>>>
>>> "AN emotional Moira Kelly has told of her joy at the moment
>>> she saw twins Trishna and Krishna lying in separate cots
>>> after surgeons successfully separated the pair after a
>>> marathon operation.
>>>
>>> Everyone in Australia has followed the story of Krishna
>>> and Trishna, the Conjoined twins who were given a 25%
>>> chance of a successful separation.
>>>
>>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/gallery-e6frf7jo-1225798259687?page=4
>>>
>>> On the eve of the
>>> operation Moira Kelly asked people to pray for the children.
>>>
>>> Now to most of the world that seems like a reasonable thing, but
>>> to atheists it is like Holy Water on Vampires!
>>>
>>> But Lets be very clear what is happening here.
>>>
>>> Moira Kelly is not standing by the twins bed expecting God to
>>> miraculously transform them.
>>>
Is that too hard for anyone, apart from tiresomebiter, to understand??
>>> She is a rational, caring, practical theist who has organised
>>> for the twins to be brought to Australia where amazingly skilled
>>> doctors using the best technology worked for hours to successfully
>>> complete the operation.
>>>
>>> "Speaking outside the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne,
>>> the twins' guardian praised surgeons who separated the
>>> twin girls who were joined at the head.
>>>
>>> "Moira and the Children First team sincerely thank the public,
>>> the medical and religious communities and our supporters for
>>> all their prayers and good wishes. During this tense and long
>>> wait for news we have all been overwhelmed by the generosity
>>> of spirit of so many people."
>>>
>>>
>>> For people like Moira, prayer is not a shopping list of desires,
>>> importuning God to perform miracles, it is a spiritual adjunct
>>> to real action in the physical world.
>>>
a what? tirebiter has NO IDEA! B^D
>>> Prayer is a channel to God which focuses the will,
>>> seeks to align behaviour with the divine will, and
>>> activates human energies and capacities.
>>>
does it say 'supernatural miracles will result'?
NO, that is tiresomebiter's straw man.. which he then plays with! B^]
>>> Through prayer and meditation, believers seek to reflect on
>>> the best way forward.. and then THEY act to bring about change..
>>>
A concept clearly beyond atheists who sit on their arses and
whine about those who ACT to reduce suffering.. THE THEISTS!
>>> Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
>>> and to seek assistance in doing so.
Again, is there anyone, apart from tiresomebiter, who doesn't grasp
that simple, and clear English expression? B^]
>>> The critical question to be considered is that Moira is motivated
>>> by her faith to bring about miraculous change in the lives of those
>>> two girls, and many others. The means are not supernatural, they are
>>> rational and scientific.. and she thanks the surgeons.. some of whom
>>> may not even be believers.. acknowledging their human skills.
>>>
>>>
>>> Moira Kelly AO and her Children First Foundation made this happen,
>>>
>>> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/
>>>
>>> Moira has been serving humanity since she was 13;
>>>
>>> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/moirakelly.aspx
>>>
>>>
>>> "Twins recovering well after surgery"
>>>
Does it say "Twins recovered after prayer without surgery"?
No. but Tiresomebiter and all the other brainless atheist
dogmatists can't understand ANYTHING but primitive fundie notions!
>>>
>>> "The 15 nuns at the Missionaries of Charity in Dhaka,
>>> who each helped in raising the twins, prayed for them
>>> as they went into surgery on Monday.
>>>
>>> "We prayed from 8am to 8pm," Sister Grace said.
>>>
>>> The following day their prayers were answered.
>>>
>>> Global interest in the twins has been intense,
>>> with the Royal Children's swamped by media
>>> attention from countries including Japan, Britain
>>> and the US.
>>>
>>> Hospital spokeswoman Julie Webber said never before
>>> had there been so much attention."
>>
>> This explains the truth of your "reality".
>
> And also your reality, so what actually 'is' reality, given you are
> both entitled to your views?
>
> BOfL
He is not dealing with reality, like all atheists they
have ONLY ONE SCRIPT., a feeble mishmash of OTHER PEOPLE'S
IDEAS.
I have yet to meet an atheist in Usenet capable of an original
thought, they all appear to be adolescents who read Dawkins and
Hitchins and think they have discovered the Truth, which they then
dogmatically espouse just like any doctrinaire fundie...
Tiresomebiter could not refute a single fact in my post..
it's not even clear he READ IT! B^D He clearly did not understand
what it said and went pushed the replay button on some standard
atheist dogma which HAS NOTHING TO SAY about my post! B^]
Most amusing!
He is dealing with CARTOON responses to his OWN IMAGINATION,
NOTHING TO DO WITH THE REALITY WHICH Moira Kelly is grappling with
SO SUPERBLY!
There you have the classic CONTRAST between theism, which builds
and runs the great and inspiring civilisations, introduced schools and
hospitals, helps millions to find food, shelter and treatment for
those two beautiful little girls..
and atheism.. which does FUCK ALL! B^p
Just look at the atheist states, the USSR, Maoist China, Pol Pots
medieval genocide, and Nth Korea.. MILLIONS who died, terror, torture
mass starvation, executions, forced indoctrination of children and
adults.. EVERY atheist regime a catastrophic TYRANNY!
And when I post on a wonderful story, praising the ACTIONS of
humanitarian theists, and brilliant surgeons, utilising remarkably
science to reduce human suffering.. look at the paucity of atheist
response.. they go OUT OF THEIR WAY, to FABRICATE something they
can WHINE about!!!
That is atheism PRECISELY! THEY are useless, hate filled immoral
MAGGOTS who DO NOTHING but undermine and DESTROY the best in our
societies!
Clearly if sociopaths like tiresomebiter, completely lacking in
compassion and empathy, had their way.. those children would
have DIED WAITING FOR ATHEISTS To EVER Do SOMETHING OTHER THAN
CRITICISE THOSE WHO DO ACT!!!!!!
Decent folk wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire!!!! B^[
;
>> http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/Omni-Impotence.html
Clearly you didn't read the post and are talking to yourself,
and your own stupid, dogmatic, irrelevant STRAWMAN STEREOTYPES!
Next atheist dimwit please! B^D
--
Green Lantern
"fasgnadh" <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:aeuNm.56174$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Richo another heartless atheist who has only bile, no compassion:
> > fasgnadh wrote:
> >>
> >> "Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
> >> twins Krishna and Trishna"
> >>
>
> Most people are.. but not the atheists! 8^o
>
> So why is that? Lets see what they think the issue is...
>
PPFFFFFFFffffftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
tirebiter
> tirebiter wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> The Standard atheist response to any new ideas! B^p
>
What "new" idea would that be? The lazy belief that "prayer helps" is
thousands of years old, and there is zero evidence that it actually
has any effect at all.
> <unsnip>
>
>
>
>
>
> > fasgnadh wrote:
>
> >> "Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
> >> twins Krishna and Trishna"
>
> >> "AN emotional Moira Kelly has told of her joy at the moment
> >> she saw twins Trishna and Krishna lying in separate cots
> >> after surgeons successfully separated the pair after a
> >> marathon operation.
>
> >> Everyone in Australia has followed the story of Krishna
> >> and Trishna, the Conjoined twins who were given a 25%
> >> chance of a successful separation.
>
> >>http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/gallery-e6frf7jo-1225798259687?page=4
>
> >> On the eve of the
> >> operation Moira Kelly asked people to pray for the children.
>
> >> Now to most of the world that seems like a reasonable thing, but
> >> to atheists it is like Holy Water on Vampires!
>
> >> But Lets be very clear what is happening here.
>
> >> Moira Kelly is not standing by the twins bed expecting God to
> >> miraculously transform them.
>
> Is that too hard for anyone, apart from tiresomebiter, to understand??
>
Oh, namecalling so soon. Are you already admitting defeat?
Why wouldn't Ms. Kelly expect this alleged god to miraculously
"transform them"? If it has the power to intervene, why would it only
produce a result that is well within the statistical norm? And what
about other infant surgeries that don't go so well? Was it from a
lack of prayer and/or a god that couldn't be bothered to intervene?
If this was your god at work, why would anyone worship such an
arbitrary and caprecious being?
Incidentally, in at least one of the double-blind studies where one
group of patients had a prayer group and another one didn't, the
patients that weren't prayed for did better overall. And it didn't
indicate that not praying gives better results, but that prayer is
completely ineffective. The probability of success is predictable and
doesn't change when an unseen and unprovable god is added to the mix.
You yourself listed this probability at 25 percent, which is based on
success/failure of all similar cases. Maybe in this case the chances
were a bit higher because the surgical team was better skilled, and/or
there was less difficulty in separating this particular set of twins.
But nothing about this suggests the "power" of prayer altered the
outcome in any way.
<resnipped>
---
a.a. #2273
tirebiter
Sure, his view is that an unseen and unprovable god looked past
millions of other cases of horrific suffering and chose to intervene
in this one, just because a lot of people prayed. I'll stick to the
view that the probability of this outcome, although fairly low, wasn't
unexpected.
---
a.a. #2273
tirebiter
>
> Clearly if sociopaths like tiresomebiter, completely lacking in
> compassion and empathy, had their way.. those children would
> have DIED WAITING FOR ATHEISTS To EVER Do SOMETHING OTHER THAN
> CRITICISE THOSE WHO DO ACT!!!!!!
>
> Decent folk wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire!!!! B^[
>
more amusing.
What exactly did the actions of "THOSE WHO [did] ACT!!!!!!" do to
alter the outcome of this operation? Provide a single case where the
lack of prayer by atheists ever caused someone's death?
>
> >>http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/Omni-Impotence.html
>
> Clearly you didn't read the post and are talking to yourself,
> and your own stupid, dogmatic, irrelevant STRAWMAN STEREOTYPES!
>
Not a strawman, in fact it doesn't even get close to the definition of
what a strawman is. You're showing your ignorance regarding that
term.
If you don't like the cartoon, then read a more "grownup" version of
the same information:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
And the comic did raise a very important point. How does prayer make
an already omnipresent god more aware of a certain group of sick
people?
---
a.a. #2273
tirebiter
>
> No. but Tiresomebiter and all the other brainless atheist
> dogmatists can't understand ANYTHING but primitive fundie notions!
>
>
claiming that the praying godbots expected the twins to be separated
without surgery, but that they erroneously attribute prayer as having
assisted in the outcome. You provide a very poorly argued mixed bag
of points that actually contradict each other:
"Prayer is a channel to God"
"Prayer is not to activate God"
"The means are not supernatural, they are rational and scientific"
Sister Grace and friends prayed and "their prayers were answered"
You clearly have no skill at presenting a point, but considering your
complete lack of a credible position, it's not surprising you use
corkscrew logic and ad hom attacks in an attempt to distract from your
empty argument.
---
a.a. #2273
fasgnadh
> fasgnadh wrote:
>> Richo another heartless atheist who has only bile, no compassion:
>> > fasgnadh wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
>> >> twins Krishna and Trishna"
>> >>
>>
>> Most people are.. but not the atheists! 8^o
>>
>> So why is that? Lets see what they think the issue is...
>>
So what do atheists think about this wonderful woman's
compassionate work?
Well, as you can see, richo is such a moral defective he
thinks it's an opportunity to lie about me and Green Limpet
just pulls his head far enough out of his arse to fart
his distaste for such human compassion:
>
> PPFFFFFFFffffftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
Olrik
fasgnadh
sssssssswwwwwwwwooooooooooossssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
That obviously went RIGHT OVER tiresomebiters head! B^D
He just doesn't READ what he responds too! ;-)
>>>>> it is a spiritual adjunct
>>>>> to real action in the physical world.
>>>>>
>>
>> a what? tirebiter has NO IDEA! B^D
>>
>>
>>>>> Prayer is a channel to God which focuses the will,
>>>>> seeks to align behaviour with the divine will, and
>>>>> activates human energies and capacities.
>>>>>
>>
>> does it say 'supernatural miracles will result'?
It says the EXACT OPPOSITE.. yet tiresomebiter acts as if
he's talking to a fundie who claims God will bend the laws of nature and
do a miracle!! B^D Tiresomebiter is arguing with his OWN IMAGINATION!
B^D
>> NO, that is tiresomebiter's straw man.. which he then plays with! B^]
And it simply makes him look foolish and INCAPABLE of responding
rationally!
>>>>> Through prayer and meditation, believers seek to reflect on
>>>>> the best way forward.. and then THEY act to bring about change..
>>>>>
A concept clearly beyond atheists who sit on their arses and
whine about those who ACT to reduce suffering.. THE THEISTS!
>>
>>>>> Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
>>>>> and to seek assistance in doing so.
>>
>> Again, is there anyone, apart from tiresomebiter, who doesn't grasp
>> that simple, and clear English expression? B^]
>>
And yet tiresomebiter still thinks there is some claim in this post
that 'God Miraculously interevenes' B^D
>>>>> The critical question to be considered is that Moira is motivated
>>>>> by her faith to bring about miraculous change in the lives of those
>>>>> two girls, and many others. The means are not supernatural, they are
>>>>> rational and scientific.. and she thanks the surgeons.. some of whom
>>>>> may not even be believers.. acknowledging their human skills.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Moira Kelly AO and her Children First Foundation made this happen,
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Moira has been serving humanity since she was 13;
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/moirakelly.aspx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Twins recovering well after surgery"
>>>>>
>>
>> Does it say "Twins recovered after prayer without surgery"?
>>
>> No. but Tiresomebiter and all the other brainless atheist
>> dogmatists can't understand ANYTHING but primitive fundie notions!
And becasue they constantly argue with fundies (their intellectual
equals ;-) they can't THINK in any other terms!
The idea of prayer being anything other than asking Daddy to fix the
world for them.. is simply beyond their feeble brainpower!! B^D
>>>>> "The 15 nuns at the Missionaries of Charity in Dhaka,
>>>>> who each helped in raising the twins, prayed for them
>>>>> as they went into surgery on Monday.
>>>>>
>>>>> "We prayed from 8am to 8pm," Sister Grace said.
>>>>>
>>>>> The following day their prayers were answered.
i.e., teams of surgeons operated on the girls Moira Kelly
had transported and looked after and arranged treatment for...
HUMANS ACTED to answer the prayers of so many people!
Beautiful.
And atheists just don't get it.. they are Grinchs:
you wish them a Good day and they tell you to go fuck yourself:
# From: "John Fraser" <jfr...@ns.sympatico.ca>
# Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.pentecostal,alt.atheism
# Subject: Merry Christmas
# Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:21:03 -0400
# Message-ID: <4953abb6$1$5460$9a56...@news.aliant.net>
#
# Hello Folks;
#
# I'd like to wish all of you a very Merry Christmas
# and a safe holiday season. Phil 4:8.
#
# Cheers,
# John
# From: Christopher A. Lee <ca...@optonline.net>
# Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.pentecostal,alt.atheism
# Subject: Re: Merry Christmas
# Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:24:01 -0500
# Message-ID: <o07dl41sa4t4jhof3...@4ax.com>
#
# "go fuck yourself with your crucifix in a drill chuck'.
>> Clearly if sociopaths like tiresomebiter, completely lacking in
>> compassion and empathy, had their way.. those children would
>> have DIED WAITING FOR ATHEISTS To EVER Do SOMETHING OTHER THAN
>> CRITICISE THOSE WHO DO ACT!!!!!!
>>
>> Decent folk wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire!!!! B^[
> I'm sure you don't see the hypocrisy in that.
What hypocrisy? You keep mistaking me for your imaginary fundie
STRAWMAN!!! B^D I am not a Christian.. I'm an agnostic who
thinks you aren';t worth pissing on! B^]
I don't think that because you are an atheist, that would be prejudice..
I think that because of your BEHAVIOUR, your idiocy and your prejudice
and your misrepresentation becasue YOU CAN'T DEAL with what I said..
and have to MAKE SHIT UP, and then argue with your own FABRICATION.
I am not, have not, and will not argue that prayer is about asking
for a miraculous 'magic fix' .. I have repeatedly said, why would
you need to bring the girls to Oz and hire surgeons if that was possible
> What exactly did the actions of "THOSE WHO [did] ACT!!!!!!" do to
> alter the outcome of this operation?
They became guardians of the girls, brought them to Australia
organised the medical treatment, looked after them, others
of them operated on the girls, still others will care for them..
those are some of the actions of those who did act.
others supported them.. from well wishers to those who donated
to Moira's Children First Foundation...
Now here's where the link to PRAYER and PRAXIS comes in..
see if you can FINALLY wrap your tiny brain around it...
When Moira asked for peoples prayers, thousands of people
listen, and focus on the plight of those, and other children,
they hold them up in their conscious minds, they contemplate
the problems, they reflect on what they can DO, and then,
the sincere ones.. DO IT.. often it is sending money,
the surgeons may donate their time and skills.. some people
responded by riding camels to raise funds....
(and all you fucking atheists have done is BITCH AND WHINE
and flap your fucking useless mouthholes in shitting on
what is a GOOD thing, performed by people who have what
you clearly COMPLETELY LACK, compassion and a sense
of community ACTION:
"Please come and show your support for Moira,
the work of the Foundation and Trishna and Krishna
at 12pm on Sunday 22nd of November at Federation Square.
This momentous occasion coincides with the culmination
of the Darwin to Melbourne �Thank You� Camel Expedition
in which, Russell, Ros and their 8 trusty camels have
made its way over 6,000 kilometres to raise money for
Children First Foundation. Please walk with us from
Federation Square to the Melbourne Town Hall to show
your support!"
This is what true believers achieve.. while atheists
demonstrate why every atheist regime has been a
miserable SHITHOLE! B^p
"Moira and the Children First team sincerely thank the public,
the medical and religious communities and our supporters for
all their prayers and good wishes."
That's what people who care do... they send prayers and
good wishes (the latter is the option for agnostics, atheists
just snarl, bare their fangs, or in Green Limpet's case, fart
their hatred and mean spirited nastiness...
"During this tense and long wait for news we have all been overwhelmed
by the generosity of spirit of so many people."
The REASON that atheist tyrannies were totally DYSFUNCTIONAL and
fell apart is that atheists simply do not understand, let alone
exhibit, that 'generosity of spirit'.. they spit on and abuse it..
as we have seen in their rabid, hate-filled responses in this thread.
> Provide a single case where the
> lack of prayer by atheists ever caused someone's death?
Why should I provide evidence for a claim I have never made.. only YOU
have?
You are a complete MORON.. you are completely CLUELESS about
what I have said, and are living proof of why atheism can't run
a chook raffle in a pub, let alone a great and enduring civilisation.
All through history, theists have built achieved and DONE, and atheists
have whined, bitched, slandered lied and UNDONE..
>
>>>> http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/Omni-Impotence.html
>> Clearly you didn't read the post and are talking to yourself,
>> and your own stupid, dogmatic, irrelevant STRAWMAN STEREOTYPES!
>>
>
> Not a strawman,
Yes it is.. it deals with what I EXPLICITLY said prayer was NOT ABOUT.
YOu posted a cartoon attacking what I WASN'T talking about...
it attacks YOUR STRAWMAN.. something in YOUR HEAD, but which I never
claimed or argued for.. in fact my post is full of attacking the notion
of "Shopping List" prayer for Bid Daddy to fix the world!
Thats a fundie concept.. and one which you share with them as the ONLY
concept of what Prayer is or can be.
So, you have a limited understanding and an even more limited
capacity for logic.. not my problem..
> in fact it doesn't even get close to the definition of
> what a strawman is.
A strawman is what you constructed to REPLACE my argument, and then
posted a cartoon attacking YOUR strawman, NOT my argument.
Q.E.D.
> If you don't like the cartoon,
The cartoon is fine, your premise that it relates in any
way to my post reveals what a simwitted cretin you are.
Such profound idiocy simply cannot be helped! B^[
> then read a more "grownup" version of
> the same information:
GIGO.
As your premise is faulty, your response is irrelevant.
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html
>
> And the comic did raise a very important point. How does prayer make
> an already omnipresent god more aware of a certain group of sick
> people?
thanks for PROVING precisely what I said about your COMPLETE
FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT MY POST SAID.. lets rub your nose in it;
" Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
and to seek assistance in doing so."
I'm no longer even going to try and help you understand anymore,
the intelligent reader can see that you are a complete fool. B^]
> a.a. #2273
I assessed your post with perfect accuracy:
>> Clearly you didn't read the post and are talking to yourself,
>> and your own stupid, dogmatic, irrelevant STRAWMAN STEREOTYPES!
>>
>>
fasgnadh
> On Nov 20, 12:24 am, BOfL <bigflet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> so what actually 'is' reality, given you are
>> both entitled to your views?
becasue tiresomeblighter is arguing with his OWN STRAWMAN
he will not give you HIS view of reality, he will lie about mine..
he has no argument, only misrepresentation
>> BOfL
>
> an unseen and unprovable god looked past
> millions of other cases of horrific suffering
> and chose to intervene in this one, just because
> a lot of people prayed.
That is tiresomblighters view, not mine, you will not find
it expressed anywhere in my post, which is why he can't use
a QUOTE.. and has to simply LIE to misrepresent his STRAWMAN
as my views..
Tiresomeblighter's opinion is the exact OPPOSITE of the views
I expressed in my post;
# From: fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au>
# Subject: The Reality of PRAYER and PRAXIS
# - Krishna and Trishna, conjoined twins, successfully seperated
# Message-ID: <FbiNm.55996$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
# Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 20:49:41 GMT
#
#
# "Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
# twins Krishna and Trishna"
#
# "AN emotional Moira Kelly has told of her joy at the moment
# she saw twins Trishna and Krishna lying in separate cots
# after surgeons successfully separated the pair after a
# marathon operation.
#
# Everyone in Australia has followed the story of Krishna
# and Trishna, the Conjoined twins who were given a 25%
# chance of a successful separation.
#
# http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/gallery-e6frf7jo-1225798259687?page=4
#
# On the eve of the
# operation Moira Kelly asked people to pray for the children.
#
# Now to most of the world that seems like a reasonable thing, but
# to atheists it is like Holy Water on Vampires!
#
# But Lets be very clear what is happening here.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#
# Moira Kelly is not standing by the twins bed expecting
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# God to miraculously transform them.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#
That shows clearly what a dishonest atheist LIAR tiresomeblighter is,
and this his views, expressed above, have nothing to do
with my post.
# She is a rational, caring, practical theist who has organised
# for the twins to be brought to Australia where amazingly skilled
# doctors using the best technology worked for hours to successfully
# complete the operation.
#
# "Speaking outside the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne,
# the twins' guardian praised surgeons who separated the
# twin girls who were joined at the head.
#
# "Moira and the Children First team sincerely thank the public,
# the medical and religious communities and our supporters for
# all their prayers and good wishes. During this tense and long
# wait for news we have all been overwhelmed by the generosity
# of spirit of so many people."
#
# For people like Moira, prayer is not a shopping list of desires,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# importuning God to perform miracles, it is a spiritual adjunct
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# to real action in the physical world.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#
# Prayer is a channel to God which focuses the will,
# seeks to align behaviour with the divine will, and
# activates human energies and capacities.
#
# Through prayer and meditation, believers seek to reflect on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# the best way forward.. and then THEY act to bring about change..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# and to seek assistance in doing so.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# The critical question to be considered is that Moira
# is motivated by her faith to bring about miraculous
# change in the lives of those two girls, and many others.
# The means are not supernatural, they are rational and scientific..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# and she thanks the surgeons.. some of whom may
# not even be believers.. acknowledging their human skills.
Any reasonable person can see how prayer works,
just as Rational Emotive Therapy does, just as
Positive thinking does.. to produce ACTION
creating positive social outcomes.
The atheists would try and tell you that coaching,
inspiring, encouraging, challenging, cajoling and
motivating isn't real! pfffffft! they are idiots.
# Moira Kelly AO and her Children First Foundation made this happen,
#
# http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/
#
# Moira has been serving humanity since she was 13;
#
# http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/moirakelly.aspx
#
#
# "Twins recovering well after surgery"
#
# "The 15 nuns at the Missionaries of Charity in Dhaka,
# who each helped in raising the twins, prayed for them
# as they went into surgery on Monday.
#
# "We prayed from 8am to 8pm," Sister Grace said.
#
# The following day their prayers were answered.
#
# Global interest in the twins has been intense,
# with the Royal Children's swamped by media
# attention from countries including Japan, Britain
# and the US.
#
# Hospital spokeswoman Julie Webber said never before
# had there been so much attention."
I'll stick to the
> view that the probability of this outcome, although fairly low, wasn't
> unexpected.
>
> ---
> a.a. #2273
fasgnadh
> "I'm the worst agnostic EVER!"
That's nice, dear, but what has it got to do with the topic?
fasgnadh
> fasgnadh wrote:
>> tirebiter wrote:
>>
>> > <snip>
>>
>>
>> The Standard atheist response to any new ideas! B^p
>>
>> <unsnip>
>>> fasgnadh wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Moira Kelly overjoyed at successful separation of conjoined
>>>> twins Krishna and Trishna"
>>>>
>>>> "AN emotional Moira Kelly has told of her joy at the moment
>>>> she saw twins Trishna and Krishna lying in separate cots
>>>> after surgeons successfully separated the pair after a
>>>> marathon operation.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone in Australia has followed the story of Krishna
>>>> and Trishna, the Conjoined twins who were given a 25%
>>>> chance of a successful separation.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/gallery-e6frf7jo-1225798259687?page=4
>>>>
>>>> On the eve of the
>>>> operation Moira Kelly asked people to pray for the children.
>>>>
>>>> Now to most of the world that seems like a reasonable thing, but
>>>> to atheists it is like Holy Water on Vampires!
>>>>
>>>> But Lets be very clear what is happening here.
>>>>
>>>> Moira Kelly is not standing by the twins bed expecting
>>>> God to miraculously transform them.
>>>>
>>
>> Is that too hard for anyone, apart from tiresomebiter, to understand??
So what role does prayer play? Prayer motivates ACTION:
>>>> She is a rational, caring, practical theist who has organised
>>>> for the twins to be brought to Australia where amazingly skilled
>>>> doctors using the best technology worked for hours to successfully
>>>> complete the operation.
>>>>
>>>> "Speaking outside the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne,
>>>> the twins' guardian praised surgeons who separated the
>>>> twin girls who were joined at the head.
>>>>
>>>> "Moira and the Children First team sincerely thank the public,
>>>> the medical and religious communities and our supporters for
>>>> all their prayers and good wishes. During this tense and long
>>>> wait for news we have all been overwhelmed by the generosity
>>>> of spirit of so many people."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For people like Moira, prayer is not a shopping list of desires,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> importuning God to perform miracles, it is a spiritual adjunct
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> to real action in the physical world.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>> Prayer is a channel to God which focuses the will,
>>>> seeks to align behaviour with the divine will, and
>>>> activates human energies and capacities.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>> Through prayer and meditation, believers seek to reflect on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> the best way forward.. and then THEY act to bring about change..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>> Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> and to seek assistance in doing so.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> Again, is there anyone, apart from tiresomebiter, who doesn't grasp
>> that simple, and clear English expression? B^]
>>
He still doesn't get it! B^p
>>
>>>> The critical question to be considered is that Moira is motivated
>>>> by her faith to bring about miraculous change in the lives of those
>>>> two girls, and many others. The means are not supernatural, they are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>> rational and scientific.. and she thanks the surgeons.. some of whom
>>>> may not even be believers.. acknowledging their human skills.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Moira Kelly AO and her Children First Foundation made this happen,
>>>>
>>>> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/
>>>>
>>>> Moira has been serving humanity since she was 13;
>>>>
>>>> http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/moirakelly.aspx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Twins recovering well after surgery"
>>>>
>>
>> Does it say "Twins recovered after prayer without surgery"?
>>
>> No. but Tiresomebiter and all the other brainless atheist
>> dogmatists can't understand ANYTHING but primitive fundie notions!
>>
>>
> You're being extremely pedantic with this nit of a point.
Bullshit.. I am being PRECISE and CLEAR, and showing that your
woolly headed idiocy is the problem, not my measured, rational
argument.. you just can't FOLLOW it! B^p
> I'm not claiming that the praying godbots
> expected the twins to be separated
> without surgery,
Then that would be about the only unfounded, unproven assertion you
haven't made;
# From: tirebiter <dontsp...@bigfoot.com>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion,
# alt.religion.christian,alt.agnosticism,talk.atheism
# Subject: Re: The Reality of PRAYER and PRAXIS
# - Krishna and Trishna, conjoined twins, successfully seperated
# Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:06:35 -0800 (PST)
# Message-ID:
# <928e468d-f04a-4869...@e31g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>
#
# an unseen and unprovable god looked past
# millions of other cases of horrific suffering
# and chose to intervene in this one,
# just because a lot of people prayed.
Try this for a more realistic description; belief in God,
and self transformation through prayer and meditation,
motivated Moira Kelly to ACT in the world and achieve
a highly improbable outcome.. while atheists looked past
millions of other cases and chose to bitch and moan about the
theist intervention.....
so what's fucking new? B^P
> they erroneously attribute prayer as having
> assisted in the outcome.
No, it did assist in the outcome, and I have already described how, and
that explanation made clear it is NOT in the SUPERNATURAL MAGIC way
YOU keep referring to.. because you are incapable of actually
READING AND UNDERSTANDING what you were told..
Let me put key passages together and see if you can possibly
grasp what any seven year old could understand was being said;
@ But Lets be very clear what is happening here.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@
@ Moira Kelly is not standing by the twins bed expecting
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ God to miraculously transform them.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ For people like Moira, prayer is not a shopping list of desires,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ importuning God to perform miracles, it is a spiritual adjunct
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ to real action in the physical world.
@ Prayer is a channel to God which focuses the will,
@ seeks to align behaviour with the divine will, and
@ activates human energies and capacities.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@
@ Through prayer and meditation, believers seek to reflect on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ the best way forward.. and then THEY act to bring about change..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ Prayer is not to activate God, but to activate the BELIEVERS
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
@ and to seek assistance in doing so.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> You provide a very poorly argued mixed bag
BWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA! First you snipped it ALL
without comment... then you MISREPRESENTED it, and now you want to take
bits out of context and pretend that because you have NEVER understood
what it said, it must have a problem:
> of points that actually contradict each other:
Are you really so witless that you think these are contradictions? 8^o
>
> "Prayer is a channel to God"
A telephone is a channel to the weather report
> "Prayer is not to activate God"
The telephone does not activate the weather report
Communicating with the weather report, I put on my coat,
*I* ACT to keep myself warm.. or to take a blanket to a
homeless person...
There is no contradiction, there is only your cluelessness
Theists claim they get encouragement and inspiration from their
beliefs, and objectively it is clear that Moira Kelly was
motivated by her faith to bring about a 'miracle' and atheists
did fuck all.. except spit on the whole process.
> "The means are not supernatural, they are rational and scientific"
Are you disputing it? You have frequently MISREPRESENTED IT,
and claimed I was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE.. you lying atheist!
> Sister Grace and friends prayed and "their prayers were answered"
They prayed that the surgeons would be successful, and they were...
where's the supernatural.. you ridiculous simpleton? B^p
> You clearly have no skill at presenting a point,
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAAA
Just because you cannot FOLLOW one.. cannot GRASP ONE,
cannot UNDERSTAND ONE, and simply SNIPPED THEM ALL.. B^]
till I rubbed your nose in your gutless dishonesty..
and forced you to make this latest, feeble response
> but considering your
> complete lack of a credible position,
You have snipped and run from my position, then fabricated
a strawman about "supernatural miracles" and posted a cartoon
attacking your own strawman... it is hilarious to watch
you use the word, 'credible' B^]
> it's not surprising you use
> corkscrew logic
It's not surprising you feel you have been skewered by
my logic.. you have been!
> and ad hom attacks
First I demonstrated that you were a clueless twonk,
and then I called you a clueless twonk.. go have a cry! B^D
> in an attempt to distract from your
> empty argument.
I keep reposting my argument, and your strawmen,
and you keep running away from both. B^]
Your argument is simply to LIE about mine, to
pretend I have made claims about supernatural
intervention.. when YOU are the ONLY ONE to
raise it, and my post CLEARLY repudiated it, even before
you spoke.
You have been eviscerated.. please come back for further
humiliation in public..
..remember, I am not a gentle-Jesus meek and mild, theist..
I am the agnostic G�tterd�mmerung who hangs lying atheists
out to dry..... ;-)
>
> ---
> a.a. #2273
Olrik
> Olrik wrote:
>> "I'm the worst agnostic EVER!"
>
> That's nice, dear, but what has it got to do with the topic?
My my... Another example of fasgnadh's dishonesty...
<snip verbiage>
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> he will not give you HIS view of reality, he will lie about mine..
Fasgnadh's seems to allow him not to believe in any particular god but
still believe that there is at least one god, even if he does not know
which one.
Thus fasgnadh is a sort of ignorant theist without portfolio.
But then Fasgnadh claims that all those who lack belief that there are
gods are irredeemably evil, and are permanently tarred with the sins of
every other persn claiming to be atheist throughout history.
Which makes all babies and young children irredeemably evil until they
have been brainwashed into believing that there is at least one god.
That must be the original 'original sin', not being born worshipping
some god.
But Fasgnadh is stupid enough and evil enough to keep trying to sell us
his pig in a poke idiocy.
�The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you
shine on it, the more it will contract.� �Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
And that certainly applies to Fasgnadh.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
[garbage snipped]
Since Fasgnadh never leaves anything coherent from other's posts, he
deserves the same treatment.
Here is something better:
3 Silly Religious Beliefs Held By Non-Silly People
By Greta Christina, Greta Christina's Blog. Posted October 30, 2009.
Many of the beliefs held by religious moderates -- smart people who
respect science and the separation of church and state -- are as
untenable as the dogma of fundamentalists.
"You can't disprove religion."
I'm seeing this trope a lot these days. "You can't disprove religion. At
least -- not my religion."
"Well, of course," the trope continues, "many outdated religious beliefs
-- young-earth creationism, the universe revolving around the earth, the
sun being drawn across the sky by Apollo's chariot -- have been shown by
science to be mistaken. But modern progressive and moderate beliefs --
these, you can't disprove with science. These are simply matters of
faith: things people reasonably choose to believe, based on their
personal life experience."
Then there's the corollary to this trope: "Therefore, atheism is just as
much a matter of faith as religion. And atheists who think atheism is
better supported by evidence are just as dogmatic and close-minded as
religious believers."
The usual atheist reply to this is to cry, "That's the God of the Gaps!
Whatever phenomenon isn't currently explained by science, that's where
you stick your God! What kind of sense does that make? Why should any
given unexplained phenomenon be best explained by religion? Has there
ever been a gap in our knowledge that's eventually been shown to be
filled by God?"
Which is a pretty good reply, and one I make a lot myself. But today, I
want to say something else.
Today, I want to point out that this is simply not the case.
The fact is that many modern progressive and moderate religions do make
claims about the observable world. And many of those claims are
unsupported by science... and, in fact, are in direct contradiction of
it.
I want to talk today about three specific religious beliefs. Not obscure
cults or rigid fundamentalist dogmas; not young-earth creationism, or
the doctrine that communion wafers literally and physically transform
into the human flesh of Christ somewhere in the digestive tract, or the
belief that the human mind has been taken over by space aliens. I want
to talk about three widely held beliefs of modern progressive and
moderate believers: beliefs held by intelligent and educated believers
who respect science and don't think religion should contradict it.
And I want to point out that even these beliefs are in direct
contradiction of the vast preponderance of available evidence -- almost
as much as the obscure cults and the rigid fundamentalist dogma.
So let's go! Today's beliefs on the chopping block are:
1: Evolution guided by God.
Also known as "theistic evolution." Among progressive and moderate
believers, this is an extremely common position on evolution. They
readily (and rightly) dismiss the claims of young-earth creationists
that humanity and all the universe were created in one swell foop 6,000
years ago. They dismiss these claims as utterly contradicted by the
evidence. Instead, they say that evolution proceeds exactly as the
biologists say it does, but this process is guided by God, to bring
humanity and the vast variety of life into being.
A belief that is almost as thoroughly contradicted by the evidence as
young-earth creationism is.
Nowhere in anatomy, nowhere in genetics, nowhere in the fossil record or
the geological record or any of the physical records of evolution, is
there even the slightest piece of evidence for divine intervention.
Quite the contrary. If there had been a divine hand tinkering with the
process, we would expect evolution to have proceeded radically
differently than it has. We would expect to see, among the changes in
anatomy from generation to generation, at least an occasional instance
of the structure being tweaked in non-gradual ways. We would expect to
see -- oh, say, just for a random example -- human knees and backs
better designed for bipedal animals than quadrupeds. (She said bitterly,
putting an ice pack on her bad knee.) We would expect to see the blind
spot in the human eye done away with, perhaps replaced with the octopus
design that doesn't have a blind spot. We would expect to see the vagus
nerve re-routed so it doesn't wander all over hell and gone before
getting where it's going. We would expect to see a major shift in the
risk-benefit analysis that's wired into our brains, one that better
suits a 70-year life expectancy than a 35-year one. We would expect to
see... I could go on, and on, and on.
And it's not just humans. We'd expect to see whales with gills, pandas
with real thumbs, ostriches without those stupid useless wings.
We don't see any of this.
What we see instead is exactly what we would expect to see if evolution
proceeded entirely as a natural, physical process. We see "designs" of
living things that are flawed and inefficient and just plain goofy:
"designs" that exist for no earthly reason except the slow
incrementalism that's an inherent part of the physical process of
evolution. We see anatomical adaptations severely constrained by the
fact that each generation can only be a slight modification on the
previous generation, with no sudden jumps to a different basic version.
We see anatomical adaptations severely constrained by the fact that each
new version has to be an improvement on the previous version (or at
least, not a deterioration from it). We see a vast preponderance of
evidence showing that evolution proceeds very slowly, very gradually,
with the anatomy of each generation being only slightly altered (if at
all) from that of the previous generation.
And that isn't how things designed by a conscious designer, or even
things tinkered with by a conscious designer, work.
Even when a designer is stuck with the outlines of a previous design,
they can still make significant, non-incremental changes. They can tear
out the cabinets and replace them with windows, and move the stove to
the other side of the room where the fridge is now. They're not stuck
with moving the stove one inch at a time, once every week or year or
twenty years. And they're not stuck with a system in which every inch
that the stove moves has to be an improvement on the previous inch.
They're not stuck with a system where, if the stove has been moving
across the floor in a series of incremental improvements, it's going to
have to stop if it starts blocking the door... because blocking the door
is a serious disadvantage.
And if a designer is omnipotent, they're not even stuck with the
outlines of a previous design. They're not stuck with anything at all.
Why on earth would an all-powerful and benevolent god, a god who's
capable of magically altering DNA, bring life into being by the slow,
cruel, violent, inefficient, tacked- together- with- duct- tape process
of evolution in the first place?
Now, it's true that we do see some evidence for what are sometimes
called "jumps" in the fossil record: evidence that evolutionary changes
sometimes happen very slowly, and sometimes happen more rapidly. (It's a
controversial position, but it is one held by some respected
evolutionary biologists.) And some believers in theistic evolution leap
onto this hypothesis and hang on like it's the last helicopter out of
Saigon.
But the "rapid jumps" thing is very misleading. "Rapid," in evolutionary
terms, means "taking place over a few hundred years instead of a few
thousand" (or "a few thousand years instead of a few hundred thousand.")
And as recent research has repeatedly shown, evolution can take place
surprisingly rapidly, in a matter of decades... and still be an entirely
natural process of small changes, incremental alterations in each
generation from the previous one. Exactly as we would expect if
evolution were an entirely natural, physical process of descent with
modification. So even if this "rapid jumps" (or "punctuated
equilibrium") hypothesis is true, it still doesn't point to theistic
evolution. Not even a little bit.
Again: There is not the slightest bit of evidence supporting the idea of
evolution guided by God. And there is a significant body of evidence
that strongly suggests the contrary.
2: An immaterial soul that animates human consciousness.
I will acknowledge freely: We don't yet understand consciousness very
well. The sciences of neurology and neuropsychology are very much in
their infancy, and the basic questions of what exactly consciousness is,
and where exactly it comes from, and how exactly it works, are, as of
yet, largely unanswered.
But research is happening. The foundations for our understanding of
consciousness are beginning to be laid. There are a few things that we
do know about consciousness.
And among the things we know is that, whatever consciousness is, it
seems to be an entirely biological process. A massive body of evidence
points to this conclusion.
When we make physical changes to the brain, it changes consciousness.
Drugs, injury, surgery, sensory deprivation, electrical current,
magnetic fields, medication, illness, exercise -- all these things
change our consciousness. Sometimes drastically. Sometimes rendering an
entire personality unrecognizable. Even very small changes to the brain
can result in massive changes to consciousness... both temporary and
permanent.
This works vice versa as well. Magnetic resonance imagery has shown
that, when people think different thoughts, different parts of their
brains light up with activity. Changes in thought show up as changes in
the brain.... just as changes in the brain show up as changes in thought.
And, of course, we have the drastic change in consciousness created by
the very drastic change in the physical brain known as "death."
All the available evidence points to the conclusion that, when the brain
dies, consciousness disappears. (And by "when the brain dies," I don't
mean, "when the brain is temporarily deprived of oxygen for a short
time," a.k.a. "near death experiences." I mean when the brain dies,
permanently.) The belief that consciousness survives death has probably
been researched more than any other supernatural hypothesis -- nobody,
not even scientists, wants death to be permanent -- and it has never,
ever been substantiated. Reports of it abound. But when carefully
examined, using good, rigorous scientific methodology, these reports
fall apart like a house of cards.
Everything we understand about consciousness points to it being a
physical, biological process. Physical changes cause observable effects.
When we see that in any other phenomenon, we assume that what's going on
is physical cause and effect. We have no reason to think that anything
else is going on with the phenomenon of consciousness.
And there is not a single scrap of good evidence supporting the
hypothesis that consciousness is even partly a supernatural phenomenon.
There are many gaps in our understanding of consciousness -- that's a
massive understatement -- but there is not one piece of solid,
rigorously gathered evidence suggesting that any of those gaps can and
should be filled with the hypothesis of an immaterial soul. There's not
even a good, testable theory explaining how this immaterial soul is
supposed to interact with the physical brain. All there is to support
this belief is a personal intuitive feeling on the part of believers
that the soul has to be non-physical because, well, it just seems like
that... plus thousands of years of other believers with a similar
intuitive feeling, who have told it to one another, and taught it to
their followers, and made up elaborate rationalizations for it, and
written it into their holy texts.
Again: There is not the slightest bit of evidence supporting the idea of
an immaterial soul that animates human consciousness. And there is a
significant body of evidence that strongly suggests the contrary.
]
3: A sentient universe.
You might ask why I'm including this particular belief in my Big Three
Targets. You might wonder why, among all the widely held religious
beliefs in the world today, I'm aiming my sights at this New Age/
Neo-Pagan/ Wiccan belief in a World-Soul.
My answer: I live in Northern California. 'Nuff said.
So that's why I want to debunk this belief. And I'm pretty much going to
repeat what I said in #2 above:
We don't yet understand what consciousness is. But we do know that,
whatever it is, it seems to be a biological product of the brain.
And the universe does not have a brain.
The universe does not have a physical structure capable of supporting
consciousness. The universe does not have neurons, dendrites, ganglia.
The universe has stars, and planets, and other astronomical bodies,
separated by unimaginably vast regions of empty space.
And stars and planets and so on do not behave like neurons and dendrites
and so on. They behave like stars and planets. They behave like objects
that, as nifty as they are, are not alive, by any useful definition of
the word "life."
If consciousness is a biological process -- as an overwhelming body of
evidence suggests, see #2 above -- then the universe, not being a
biological entity, cannot possibly be conscious. To say that it is would
mean radically redefining what we mean by "conscious." And we have no
reason to do so... other than a wishful desire to think of the universe
as sentient.
Consciousness has, for a long time, been a mysterious and utterly
ineffable phenomenon. So, before Darwin, was the tremendous variety and
mind-boggling complexity of life. And like the variety and complexity of
life, consciousness is no longer ineffable. It is being effed. The
unexplainable is being explained. And it is being explained as a
biological phenomenon -- as physical cause and effect.
Again: There is not the slightest bit of evidence supporting the idea of
a sentient universe. And there is a significant body of evidence that
strongly suggests the contrary.
***
Now. I can hear the chorus already. "How can you prove that? You don't
know that with absolute certainty! God could be intervening in evolution
-- just in ways that are indistinguishable from natural selection! There
could be some sort of immaterial soul interacting with the biological
process of consciousness, in ways we don't yet perceive! There could be
some weird form of consciousness that we don't understand, one that's
generated by stars and planets and lifeless astronomical bodies! You
can't prove with absolute certainty that there isn't! Your non-belief is
just an article of faith!"
My answer:
No. We can't prove that with 100% certainty.
But neither can we prove with 100% certainty that the universe wasn't
created 6,000 years ago, by a god who deliberately planted the fossil
record and the genetic record and the geological record and the laws of
atomic decay, all to test our faith. (Or all of which was planted by
Satan, to trick us and tempt us into disbelief.) We can't prove with
100% certainty that communion wafers don't turn into Christ's physical
body on contact with the human digestive system. Hell, we can't prove
with 100% certainty that the earth goes around the sun, and that all our
senses and logical abilities haven't been fooled by some trickster god
into thinking that it does.
And it doesn't matter. As I've said many times: 100% unshakeable
certainty is not the objective here. Reasonable plausibility, supported
by carefully gathered and rigorously tested positive evidence, is the
objective. And there is no reason to apply the "Reasonable plausibility
supported by evidence" standard to the belief in young-earth
creationism... and still apply the "If you can't disprove it with 100%
certainty, then it's still reasonable for me to believe it" standard to
the beliefs in theistic evolution, and an immaterial soul, and a
sentient universe.
If you're going to accept that young-earth creationism has been
conclusively disproven by a mountain of scientific evidence, even though
we acknowledge a .00001% hypothetical possibility that it might be
true... then, if you're going to be consistent, you have to apply that
same standard, that same willingness to accept the reasonable
conclusions of science about which ideas are and are not plausible, to
all religious beliefs.
Including your own.
Especially your own.
Not everything is a matter of opinion or perspective. Not everything can
turn into something completely different if you just look at it
differently. Some things are either true or not true. It is not true
that the universe was created 6,000 years ago. It is not true that the
sun goes around the earth. And it is not true that evolution is shaped
by the hand of God, or that consciousness is animated by an immaterial
soul, or that the universe is sentient.
These things aren't true for exactly the same reason that young-earth
creationism isn't true. They aren't true because the evidence simply
doesn't support them. They aren't true because the evidence actively
contradicts them.
If you're going to be a moderate or progressive religious believer; if
you're going to be a religious believer who respects and supports
science instead of treating it as the enemy; if you're going to be a
religious believer who wants their beliefs to at least not be directly
contradictory with the available scientific evidence... then you need to
be willing to consider the possibility that your own beliefs are every
bit as contradicted by that evidence as the beliefs of the
fundamentalist crazies.
And if the answer is "yup, that belief seems to be contradicted by the
evidence"... then you need to be willing to let go of that belief.
fasgnadh
> fasgnadh wrote:
>> tirebiter wrote:
>>> On Nov 20, 12:24 am, BOfL <bigflet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> so what actually 'is' reality, given you are
>>>> both entitled to your views?
>>
>> becasue tiresomeblighter is arguing with his OWN STRAWMAN
>>
>>
just as Cognitive Therapy does, just as
Positive thinking does.. to produce ACTION
creating positive social outcomes.
The atheists would try and tell you that coaching,
inspiring, encouraging, challenging, cajoling and
motivating isn't real! pfffffft! they are idiots.
>> # Moira Kelly AO and her Children First Foundation made this happen,
>> #
>> # http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/
>> #
>> # Moira has been serving humanity since she was 13;
>> #
>> # http://www.childrenfirstfoundation.com/moirakelly.aspx
>> #
>> #
>> # "Twins recovering well after surgery"
>> #
For those non-atheists who are actually interested in
and concerned about humanity, the girls are doing well,
both are awake and recovering!
>> # "The 15 nuns at the Missionaries of Charity in Dhaka,
>> # who each helped in raising the twins, prayed for them
>> # as they went into surgery on Monday.
>> #
>> # "We prayed from 8am to 8pm," Sister Grace said.
>> #
>> # The following day their prayers were answered.
>> #
Atheists have done nothing but weep and gnash their teeth
because once again they have shown themselves not only
to be USELESSLY INACTIVE in such areas of compassion,
but actively negative about the whole process! B^p
If only they would compete in VIRTUE with theists,
get off their fat lazy perverted and hate filled arses
and BUILD an ATHEIST HOSPITAL, let alone a state that
is not a tyranny... let alone a great and enduring civilisation
such as the one, built by generations of believers throughout
history, in which we all, including the atheist hypocrites,
CHOOSE To LIVE IN!! B^D B^D
>> # Global interest in the twins has been intense,
>> # with the Royal Children's swamped by media
>> # attention from countries including Japan, Britain
>> # and the US.
>> #
>> # Hospital spokeswoman Julie Webber said never before
>> # had there been so much attention."
>>
>
> all those who lack belief that there are gods are
> irredeemably evil,
That's an interesting belief of yours, do you have any proof?
Personally I don't accept your notion of 'irredeemable evil',
I believe people always have choices.. but you are an insider
to atheism so you have more experience of entire SYSTEMS of
atheist terror torture and murder which were responsible for
the deaths of over 70,000,000 so
> and are permanently tarred with the sins of
> every other persn claiming to be atheist throughout history.
What are these 'Sins' you believe in? It's not a concept I share or
even pretend to understand.. I woulkd ask you to EXPLAIN yourself, but
you have never been able to in the past...
> Which makes all babies and young children irredeemably evil
but you claimed they were all 'born atheist'!! Now
you appear to be claiming all those infant atheists are 'evil'! B^D
No wonder you favour abortion! B^p
> That must be the original 'original sin',
WTF are you babbling about? WTF us 'original sin',
the first time you forged posts? the first time you
published racist hate speech, the first time Porn Queen
Steve, Trance Stupor and the other Boring Atheist Arseholes
Wanking Away killed someone and shat down their throat?
# From: Steve Knight <skni...@cox.net>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism
# Subject: A.A. BAAWA - FAQ
# Message-ID: <p8mrb5lvaf0cj5bp1...@4ax.com>
# Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 02:46:34 -0700
#
# We kill theists and shit down their throats and
# not in a girly way.
#
# Warlord Steve
# BAAWA
Not satisfied with murder, Steve favours GENOCIDE
# From: Steve Knight <skni...@cox.net>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion.islam
# Subject: Re: Islam: the perfect religion and way of life for all
# Message-ID: <8t6ve5hs41qn3a2rv...@4ax.com>
# Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:58:18 -0800
#
# On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 21:22:32 +0200, "Katrina"
# <blondes_g...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#
# >Islam: the perfect religion and way of life for all
#
# It is the most foul, disgusting filth on Earth.
# The sooner we nuke you fuckers, the better.
#
# Warlord Steve
# BAAWA
The thin about atheist hate-speech, atheist 'evil', atheist
crimes, atheist 'sin'(your term), atheist ANYTHING is that it
is rarely ORIGINAL!
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest
fasgnadh
No dishonesty by me, you wrote it in
# Message-ID: <he7up4$j0l$2...@news.eternal-september.org>
# Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:45:08 -0500
# From: Olrik <olri...@yahoo.com>
# Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion,alt.agnosticism,
# alt.politics.democrats,uk.politics.misc,talk.atheism
# Subject: Re: Atheists crack and ask about God! B^D
# Re: The Reality of PRAYER and PRAXIS - Krishna and Trishna,
# conjoined twins, successfully seperated
If you are ashamed of what your wrote, you pathetic atheist liar,
then you had best just shut the fuck up! B^)
The post Olrik the knuckle dragging atheist moron could not
understand, let alone refute a single point;
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > fasgnadh wrote:
> >> That's nice, dear, but what has it got to do with the topic?
> >
> > My my... Another example of fasgnadh's dishonesty...
>
> No dishonesty by me, you wrote it
Actually, fasgnadh wrote it.
>
>
> So what do atheists think
They think that theists like fasgnadh are hate-mongers.
And unless fasgnadh concedes that he is an atheist, by admitting not to
believe in any gods, Fasgnadh IS a theist.
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> Virgil wrote:
I have left more of Fasgnadh's posting than he has left of my mine.
As a criterion for livability, being a MAJORITY RELIGIOUS SOCIETY is
irrelevant to absolutely everyone except members of the largest religion
in that society.
What is highly relevant is having a SECULAR DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT which
protects everyone, particularly all the non-members of any one religion
from unwanted religious pressures by that religion.
Modern civilization requires civilized governments to protect their
citizens from religion.
To the extent that they do this, they are civilized.
To the extent that they fail, or even worse, impose religious practices
on their citizens, they are barbaric.