I wish atheists could understand...

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Anne`

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
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Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
have considered before.
First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."
Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
gravity.

Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.
And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
his children.
The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
order for it to work. I am certain that there is no one on earth today
who doesn't believe in the force of gravity. If any of you disagree,
try to find me just *one* person who doesn't believe that there is such
a thing as gravity. I'm betting you won't be able to, because if
someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
away a long time ago. That is why gravity is not like God. Even if
you don't believe in God, he believes in YOU enough to keep the world
spinning long enough to give you a chance to accept him.

I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.
Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms. Here
is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
into my hospital.
God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

It is really very simple when you think about it.

It also strikes me as downright ridiculous to claim that life
could've arisen from natural processes here on earth. If that were the
case, it would be happening all the time. Atheists, why aren't new
creatures constantly climbing out of puddles of GOO as we speak?
Plus, if it actually WERE possible to create life from goo,
rest assured that we would've done it by now. After all, I think it's
a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been, and
every sceintific theory has already been tested and proven to either be
true or false, so why have we not heard any word from the scientific
community on this issue? Is it because they just want more money to
further their careers? I think so.

For me, though, the only proof that I ever needed to validate
my beliefs was the Bible. For one thing, the Bible is one of the only
religious books that has had many different authors, but has remained
virtually unchanged for more than 20 centuries. Another thing, it says
right in it that all the other religions are false and that Jesus
Christ is the only way to Heaven. It is the only book that makes that
claim and the only book that addresses the issue of other religions.

If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own
personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could
FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
atheist who was against peace.

Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county
(homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into
Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem. The gan and
drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
finally be safe to walk at night.

Please take a little time to think about my post. It could, in
the end, help to save your soul.


Sincerely,

Anne Ferguson


Evan Kaiser

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

Anne` wrote:
>
> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
> here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
> have considered before.

If you intend to address closet Christians, it's not a good idea to post
to alt.atheism.

> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
> several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
> of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
> evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
> their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
> he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."

You obviously aren't catching the best arguments. This is actually a
rather poor one.

> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
> himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
> believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
> unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
> gravity.

Anne, you need to realize that we've heard this crap literally hundreds
of times before, and refuted it hundreds of times before. Many atheists
DID at one time have true faith in God, but given that their prayers
were never answered, they (quite reasonably) stopped believing.



> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
> case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
> fact, that we are all stuck its surface.

You obviously don't have a good grasp of physics. If Earth was really
spinning so fast, its graviational pull wouldn't be much greater
than before, and the only difference would be relativistic (basically,
there would be no change since the particles would have to be moving
at near-light speeds in order to get a significant mass increase).

> If the earth were to ever
> STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
> doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
> stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.

Logically, it would be a good idea for you to read something about
physics before you use it as an example. There's a principle called
"angular momentum" which you should investigate.

> And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
> his children.

This would almost be amusing if it wasn't so ignorant.

> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."

No, it isn't. Gravity is a force exerted on particles by other particles
simply by virtue of having mass. They bend space by their mere presence,
thus causing a "hole" of sorts which other particles "fall" into.
Spinning
has effectively nothing to do with gravitation.

> Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
> unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
> then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
> system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
> reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

First of all, you should ask more intelligent questions. You're saying
that, because Earth has gravity, gravity is needed for life, as there's
life on Earth. This is pretty nonsensical. However, ALL other planets
in the solar system also have gravitational fields (they even spin too!)
, some weaker, some stronger, than Earth's. Venus, being very similar
in mass to Earth, would also have a very similar gravity well. Yet life
does not exist on Venus. Why? Duh. The environment on other planets
doesn't support life as we know it on Earth.

> Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
> order for it to work.

Are you truly this ignorant? If I simply stopped believing in gravity,
for whatever reason, would it stop working? You just think about that
for a minute.

> I am certain that there is no one on earth today
> who doesn't believe in the force of gravity.

You never know. There are some pretty ignorant Christians out there.
Just like you.

> If any of you disagree,
> try to find me just *one* person who doesn't believe that there is such
> a thing as gravity.

Well, I go to Northwestern University, where even the most insane of
Creationists does believe in gravity. I have no plans to look around
Evanston for someone who denies the existence of gravity.

> I'm betting you won't be able to, because if
> someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
> away a long time ago.

This is the most ignorant thing I've read in quite a while. Why do we
not see non-believers in gravity fly off into space, then?

> That is why gravity is not like God. Even if
> you don't believe in God, he believes in YOU enough to keep the world
> spinning long enough to give you a chance to accept him.

Wait a second... I thought you had to believe in God for him to do
anything. Now you're saying I don't? What about gravity? I thought I
had to believe in it, else I'd be thrown off into space.



> I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.

Who's this god of logic? I've never heard of him.

> Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms.

I pity you, o ignoramus.

> Here
> is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
> many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
> into my hospital.
> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

That's irrefutable? You must be talking to people with even less
intellect
than you have, which is little indeed. Firstly, what makes you think God
created man? You must say, "Well, God exists, and he created man. It
says
so in the Bible," or something like that anyway. Unfortunately for you,
this is circular logic. Since I'm certain you don't know what that is,
I'll explain it for you in the simplest terms I can. You're saying that
God exists because he created man, but you presuppose God's existence
by saying you know for sure that he did create man. This is more than
silly.
By the way, that was three sentences, not one. Along with your physics
reading, you should learn to count.



> It is really very simple when you think about it.

Only to simpletons like you.



> It also strikes me as downright ridiculous to claim that life
> could've arisen from natural processes here on earth. If that were the
> case, it would be happening all the time. Atheists, why aren't new
> creatures constantly climbing out of puddles of GOO as we speak?

You obviously don't know much about the history of Earth, either. This
isn't too surprising. Suffice it to say that the environment nowadays
is vastly different from the environment that was when Earth was
billions
of years younger. Given that you don't have the education or the
intellect
to understand a full explanation of it, I won't bother.

> Plus, if it actually WERE possible to create life from goo,
> rest assured that we would've done it by now.

Why? Is our knowledge of science and our ability to control individual
molecules so great? And how do you know that life HASN'T been produced
in a laboratory?

> After all, I think it's
> a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been,

You obviously don't know anything about technology.

> and
> every sceintific theory has already been tested and proven to either be
> true or false,

You obviously don't know anything about science, either.

> so why have we not heard any word from the scientific
> community on this issue? Is it because they just want more money to
> further their careers? I think so.

I think your intellect is far too feeble to understand.

> For me, though, the only proof that I ever needed to validate
> my beliefs was the Bible. For one thing, the Bible is one of the only
> religious books that has had many different authors,

So what? The holy books of the Hindus were written by many different
authors. What makes the Bible better than the Vedas?

> but has remained
> virtually unchanged for more than 20 centuries.

Oh, you understand written Hebrew and Greek? Or maybe someone you know
knows one or both of them, and has translated for you. Then I guess you
could say that the Bible hasn't changed. The translation you doubtless
use has certainly changed it from the original, though. And what does
being old and unchanged mean? It just means it's old. The Vedas are old
and unchanged. Why is the Bible better than the Vedas?

> Another thing, it says
> right in it that all the other religions are false and that Jesus
> Christ is the only way to Heaven. It is the only book that makes that
> claim and the only book that addresses the issue of other religions.

Untrue. Some of the Hindu scriptures (I've forgotten which ones) state
that Buddhism is wrong, as Vishnu came in his ninth incarnation as
Buddha in order to confuse people and lead them astray. Besides, what
significance does the downplay of other religions in the Bible have?
Surely other religious texts do the same thing; I'm pretty sure the
Koran does.



> If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own
> personal savior, we would be much better off.

No, we wouldn't. We would be wasting our time praying to a non-existent
entity with literally no benefits. We would also fund churches, priests,
ministers, etc., who contribute nothing to society in general.

> If we could just get a
> big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
> would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
> war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries.

Ah yes, the typical conservative point of view. Let's just get them damn
liberals out of office so we can take over the world. That's a great
idea.
You might want to note that there are several war-torn Christian
countries
as well.

> Then the world could
> FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
> atheist who was against peace.

You sure haven't met all of them, then.



> Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county
> (homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into
> Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem.

[Sigh...]
It has long been known that homosexuality is the result of genetics,
not of a "choice of lifestyle" as you idiots would have everyone
believe.
Also, more heterosexuals have HIV and venereal disease than homosexuals.

> The gan and
> drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
> finally be safe to walk at night.

Yeah, right. You obviously also lack an understanding of human nature.



> Please take a little time to think about my post. It could, in
> the end, help to save your soul.

Please take a little time to think about how idiotic your post was. In
the end, it might save you lots of time and effort that you might have
wasted in worship. But I doubt it.

Evan

--
Evan Kaiser
Northwestern University
http://eld094038.res-ha.res-hall.nwu.edu/

Quowong P Liu

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>, appearing in alt.atheism,
em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) writes,

> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
>Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
>unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
>then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
>system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
>reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

Maybe all those other planets don't have gravity because
the aliens living there aren't wearing HEAVY BOOTS!?

[more troll bait (probably written by do...@faribault.polaristel.net) snipped]

--
qp...@yrek.com Athiness cannot be ordered.

Todd Johnson

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
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On 3 Oct 1996 04:29:16 GMT, em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`)
wrote:

>
> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
>here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
>have considered before.
> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
>several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
>of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
>evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
>their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
>he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."
> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
>himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
>believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
>unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
>gravity.
>
> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
>case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
>fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
>STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
>doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
>stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.
> And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
>his children.

[...big snip...]

Silly troll, facts are for real people!

-----------------------------------
Todd M. Johnson
to...@amcyber.com

The views and opinions expressed in the body of
this message DO reflect the views and opinions of
my employer

Mats Andtbacka

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

Anne`, in <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>:

> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
>several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
>of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
>evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist."

no.

_my_ basic claim is that _you_ can't show me any evidence that the
IPU(pbuh) *doesn't* exist, therefore She does.

>And their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful
>God, he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."

_my_ trump card is, "if you _don't_ believe in the IPU(pbuh) you'll
end up in New Jersey for all of eternity".

>Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
>himself to you unless you have faith in him.

the IPU(pbuh) is more picky than that. She requires not only faith,
but a peace offering of US$1000 as well. flush it down your toilet
today.

>In essence, in order to believe in God, you first have to believe in
>him. God cannot work unless you have faith. In that way, he is
>analogous to the force of gravity.

fortunately, the belief in the IPU(pbuh) makes a lot more common sense
than _that_ paragraph just above.

> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
>case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
>fact, that we are all stuck its surface.

{woohaa, better and better! Troll-O-Meter readings rising with every
word!}

>If the earth were to ever STOP spinning, we would all literally fly
>off into space. So why doesn't it just *stop*?

um, it can't find the brakes?

>Logically, the only reason it doesn't just stop is because

it can't find the brakes!

>some being must be controlling it.

yes, of course, the IPU(pbuh). She keeps it distracted so that it
can't find the brakes.

>That being is God.

heretic! infidel! a-IPUist!

>The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."

{man oh man, this is the best one i've seen since i forget when...}

>Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
>unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
>then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
>system have gravity

the reason is obvious, isn't it? the IPU(pbuh) can only keep so many
planets distracted at any one time.

>or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
>reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

okay. it's like this, see: the IPU(pbuh) isn't interested in any
planet that doesn't grow garlic. She requires it to spice up Her holy
round meal, the pineapple-and-ham pizza.

>Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
>order for it to work.

shh, don't tell them! the FAA don't want the secret of flight to get
out to just anybody!

{all in all, this is a clear 9.9. congratulations; i've not been so
dusty from rolling on the floor in ages.}
--
"I miss the comfort in being sad" -- Nirvana

Graeme Kennedy

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>,
em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:

> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
>here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
>have considered before.

Troll.

-Graeme.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Graeme Kennedy

William Mayers

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In <52vqa3$o...@boris.eden.com> qp...@mockery.yrek\nospam9610030734/.com

(Quowong P Liu) writes:
>
>In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>, appearing in
alt.atheism,
>em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) writes,

>>Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes


earth
>>unique in the universe.

? And how come no other planets in our solar
>>system have gravity or support life?

ROTFLMAO!!!! Say what? Gravity makes earth unique? No other planets
have gravity???? As I sit on the floor laughing longer and louder than
I ever have in my fifty-plus years, I wonder where on earth this poster
is from? Never-never-land, must be.
Anne, child, that's so wrong it's absolutely hilarious! And Anne -
NASA thinks it may have found evidence of previous life on Mars. Guess
ol' earth isn't so special after all, is it?

Bill


Aaron Bilger

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>,
Anne` <em...@address.omitted.for.privacy> wrote:

> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
>himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
>believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
>unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
>gravity.

*ROTFL* Oh, yes, if I didn't have faith in gravity, it would just
stop working! What is this world? A kind of Road Runner cartoon? Can
we walk off the side of a cliff, unaware of gravity, until someone
presents us with a book on Newton, then we learn and fall?

> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
>case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
>fact, that we are all stuck its surface.

Stop it! My sides are hurting! Where the hell did this idea come from?
Have you ever spun around really fast? Were your arms held to you or
propelled away from you because of it?

>If the earth were to ever
>STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space.

Though it would involve an abrupt and unpleasant move east, we (our
corpses, most likely) would still be held to the planet somewhere.

>So why
>doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
>stop is because some being must be controlling it.

Logically, the only reason a top goes round is little elves controlling
it. (By the way, it is slowing down due to tidal effects)

> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."

Oh, where did the educational system go so wrong.

>And how come no other planets in our solar
>system have gravity or support life?

I give up. Neal Armstrong really fell off into space
and died when landing on the gravity-less moon, and somewhere in the
orbit of Mars are those pesky Viking spacecraft that just wouldn't stick
to that planet.

> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

A three inch tall neutronium troll created ice cream cones. Ice cream
cones exist. Therefore, a three inch tall neutronium troll exists.

>After all, I think it's
>a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been,

Which patent officer was that quote originally from?

>and
>every sceintific theory has already been tested and proven to either be
>true or false,

*sob*

>personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
>big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
>would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
>war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could
>FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice?

Another crusade? Sure, who could turn that down.


No way Anne is a theist; no one could be that bad. That had to be an atheist
post pointing out the absurdities of theism. You almost had me fooled
into thinking you were actually the world's most ignorant theist. Excellent
satire, Anne.


Farewell-


Aaron


cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
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Anne` (em...@address.omitted.for.privacy) wrote:

: Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm

: here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
: have considered before.

Well, you "hoped" incorrectly. FYI, in the future, it is considered good
manners to read a NG's FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) before commencing
to address certain points.

: Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any evidence to support the


: belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist."

Elementary mistake #2: You incorrectly thinking you know what we think
(really, if you had just read the FAQ, we wouldn't be going through all
this). Correctly worded, a close-enough "atheist claim" would go more
like: "You can't show me any evidence to support the *existence* of
god(s), and so there is no reason for me to have a belief in
he/she/it/them."

: And their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,

: he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."
: Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
: himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
: believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
: unless you have faith.

...So what you're saying is that we must believe in him in order to (have
enough evidence that we may) believe in him. (Sarcasm mode on) *There's* a
convincing argument!

: In that way, he is analogous to the force of gravity.

So now rocks 'n' stuff *believe* in gravity?

: Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific

: case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
: fact, that we are all stuck its surface.

Pardon me while I try to control my giggles...

: So why doesn't it just *stop*?

Uh...momentum?

: The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."

This reveals either that Anne is either:

A> Trolling
B> Writing a parody
C> One of the most abysmally ignorant people in the world

: Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
: unique in the universe.

To be sure, gravity is unique to Earth...

: If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why then would it have gravity?


: And how come no other planets in our solar system have gravity

I can't take it any more -- this HAS to be a troll! And as such I give
it an 8.5 out of a possible 10 -- she sounds so *sincere* that one might
be suckered into believing she actually thinks this!

: Here is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it

: many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
: into my hospital.
: God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

Oh, good! An inmate runs the asylum!

(The rest snipped -- He Whose Name Rymes With "Don Muck-Oy!" has
*nothing* on *this* gal!)

: Sincerely,

: Anne Ferguson

No, I really don't believe you're sincere -- way ta troll, girl!

--
******************************
Czar
EAC Minister-without-portfolio
******************************
Me fail English?
That's unpossible!
- Ralph Wiggum
******************************

Andrew Dalton

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

This has *got* to be a troll, or else I'm underestimating the abysmal
ignorance of fundamentalist Christians. It's hard to believe that
anyone could really spout such a list of fallacies.

--
_____________________________________________________________
Andrew Dalton
asda...@umich.edu

"Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who
speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."
Ambrose Bierce
_____________________________________________________________

Gordon

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

This is absolutely great. I'm going to keep this because it exemplifies the
saying, "Why not be a christian, it beats thinking." perfectly!

This is your brain. This is your brain on Jesus! :-) :-)

--
Gordon Charrick g...@universe.digex.net
http://universe.digex.net/~gmc

He's your god. They're your rules. You burn in hell!

HazChem

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>,
em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:

> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
>here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
>have considered before.

"possibilities you may never have considered before"?!?!? This post
sounds like you went through the alt.atheism FAQ and typed out the logical
fallacies one at a time!

Try reading the FAQ (esp. the sections on the Argument from Design and the
Argument from Assertion) before posting again.

Oh, and one thing you said:


> Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
>order for it to work.

I can not believe in gravity, and it'll still work. How do ya figure?

--
HAZARDOUS CHEMICAL http://www.clarityconnect.com/webpages/hazchem/hazchem.html
"Cynic, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." (Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_)
****************************************************************
If you agree with these posts, they are my opinions. If you disagree with them, they are the opinions of Microsoft Corporation.

Ed. Stoebenau

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

mand...@news.abo.fi (Mats Andtbacka) wrote:

>{all in all, this is a clear 9.9. congratulations; i've not been so
> dusty from rolling on the floor in ages.}
>--
> "I miss the comfort in being sad" -- Nirvana

The scary thing is, I am quite sure Anne is serious about hew crap.
She is definetly the sme one that has been spewing the same stuff on
dalnet #atheism over the last few days.
Just my four half cents worth Standard disclaimer
Ed. Stoebenau esto...@vt.edu


Ed. Stoebenau

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

<note followups>

cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:


>This reveals either that Anne is either:

> A> Trolling
> B> Writing a parody
> C> One of the most abysmally ignorant people in the world

I must pick [C]. I have talked to her on IRC, and can tell you that
she actually thinks this way.

I herby nominate Anne as the new wearer of the honorary Br*ceW crown.

Ed. Stoebenau

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:


> Hello closet Christians.

Hello closest atheist

>My name is Anne Ferguson,

Mine isn't.

> and I'm
>here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
>have considered before.

Yeah, right, I'm sure I've seen this spew before...on dalnet,
maybe?????


> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
>several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
>of some simple facts.

Um Anne, I think you mean Christians.

> Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
>evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist."

No Anne, you can't comprehend: there is no evidence of God, so there
isno reason to think he exists.

> And
>their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
>he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."

Yeah, he could, so why doesn't he?

> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
>himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
>believe in God, you first have to believe in him.

You do realize just how stupid this is, don't you? Because to believe
in the IPU (pbuh), you must first believe in her.

> God cannot work
>unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
>gravity.

So if I deny gravity and jump up, I will be able to fly?

> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
>case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate;

About a 1000mph at the equator.

> so fast, in
>fact, that we are all stuck its surface.

No Anne, you need to review basic physics. The spinning actually
lessens the effect of gravity (very slightly).

> If the earth were to ever
>STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space.

Why, FsubG=Gm1m2/(r^2) would still hold true, so gravity wouldnt
change. (unless you mean an instentaneous stop, but gravity would
still hold, it's just that we would have a 1000mph horizontal velocity
wrt the earth.)

> So why
>doesn't it just *stop*?

Uhh, inertia maybe. Remeber some dead guy by the name of Isaac
Newton?

> Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
>stop is because some being must be controlling it.

Ok Anne, get on a bike, ride in a level area. Stop pedaling. Since
you continue to move (for a time) does that mean God is making the
bike move?

> That being is God.
> And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
>his children.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA


> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."

Ypu are just too damn ignorant of anyhting of the last few hundred
years of physics.

>Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
>unique in the universe.

Uhh, all things with mass have gravity.


> If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
>then would it have gravity?

For the same reason all other objects have gravity.

>And how come no other planets in our solar
>system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
>reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

Anne, in 1969 (considering you were alive then), remeber the moon
landing? Did Armstrong fly off of the surface of the moon? It
doesn't support life, so I guess the moon has no need of gravity?

WRT life, You've had to have heard about the Martian asteroid by now,
plus I presonally would look for planets in other solar systems
similar to the earth.


> Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
>order for it to work.

I now deny gravity. Wait a minute, I'm still on my chair!!! How can
that be, Anne?

> I am certain that there is no one on earth today
>who doesn't believe in the force of gravity. If any of you disagree,
>try to find me just *one* person who doesn't believe that there is such
>a thing as gravity. I'm betting you won't be able to, because if
>someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
>away a long time ago.

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


> That is why gravity is not like God. Even if
>you don't believe in God, he believes in YOU enough to keep the world
>spinning long enough to give you a chance to accept him.

But God doesn't exist.



> I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.

Logic isn't a god. It's just very useful against idiots (such as
you.)

>Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms. Here
>is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
>many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
>into my hospital.

Hmm...mental hospital I take it. You are most likely another patient
there, right? BTW, is there anyone by the name of Brice Wellington
there?

> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

The first premise is false. Therfore, the argument is unsound.

> It is really very simple when you think about it.

Yep, took me no time at all to refute it.



> It also strikes me as downright ridiculous to claim that life
>could've arisen from natural processes here on earth. If that were the
>case, it would be happening all the time.

Becuase life can only come into existence when there is not life to
already destroy it. If life were to begin to natuarlly arise today,
other organisms would quickly use it as food.

> Atheists, why aren't new
>creatures constantly climbing out of puddles of GOO as we speak?

Because specuial creationism is false.

> Plus, if it actually WERE possible to create life from goo,
>rest assured that we would've done it by now.

Right an event that took 1000000000+ yrs will have been duplicated, on
a much smaller scale, in our less than 100yrs of abiogenesis research.

> After all, I think it's
>a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been,

Some dead Roman guy said that he would not bother inquiring into new
weapons being built, because all have already been created (during the
time of the Roman empire.)

> and
>every sceintific theory has already been tested and proven to either be
>true or false,

Ahh, youre not just ignorant of physics, but all of science in
general.


> so why have we not heard any word from the scientific
>community on this issue?

Becasue you ignore it. Go read some scientific jornals.

> Is it because they just want more money to
>further their careers? I think so.

Nope, Anne.

> For me, though, the only proof that I ever needed to validate
>my beliefs was the Bible.

So is Leviticus 11:6 true? (with apologies to Herb)

> For one thing, the Bible is one of the only
>religious books that has had many different authors, but has remained
>virtually unchanged for more than 20 centuries.

So?

> Another thing, it says
>right in it that all the other religions are false and that Jesus
>Christ is the only way to Heaven.

From the book of the IPU (pbuh):
All other religions but mine are false. Do not listen to them, for
they do not have knowledge. (3 Jack 15:13-14)

Behold, there will be a rise in idiots. For they will spew their crap
in my holy places, and they will be laughed at. Yea, people like Anne
will show theyir lack of knowledge. (Aegis 3: 54-57)

Well Anne, sorry, your religion is wrong because that of the IPU
(pbuh) is the one true religion.

> It is the only book that makes that
>claim and the only book that addresses the issue of other religions.

So, what does it say about Muhhumud (sp)?

> If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own
>personal savior, we would be much better off.

Yeah, lets all just reject reason.

> If we could just get a
>big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
>would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
>war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries.

Yep, time for another crusade and inquisition.


> Then the world could
>FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
>atheist who was against peace.

Neither have I, but a lot of Christians though.

<snip the rest-shut up Anne>


Bruce Stephens

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

>>>>> "Anne`" == Anne` <em...@address.omitted.for.privacy> writes:

> I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic. Well,
> I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms. Here is
> a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
> many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
> into my hospital.

> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

Let me guess: these patients weren't logic majors?
--
Bruce Stephens | email: B.Ste...@math.ruu.nl
Utrecht University | telephone: +31 30 2534630
Department of Mathematics | telefax: +31 30 2518394
P.O. Box 80010, 3508 TA Utrecht, The Netherlands

Rob Glanville

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

Anne` wrote:
>
> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
> here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
> have considered before.
> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
> several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
> of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
> evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
> their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
> he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."

If there really is an all-powerful god, and he revealed himself to me,
I'd punch him in the eye for all the bad and evil things he's been
doing. And that's probably the main reason why he doesn't show himself.
He's afraid of me.

> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
> himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
> believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
> unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
> gravity.
>

What a stupid god this is. Playing hide and seek is not the best way for
gods to get followers. I have an imaginary friend that you can only see
if you believe in him. And once you do believe in him, he will start
demanding money, so get out your cash.

> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
> case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
> fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
> STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
> doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
> stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.
> And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
> his children.

Is that a christian science case you are referring to? Because I know
christian science is vastly different than regular science.

Maybe you can make yourself clearer by going to school and getting an
education.

I certainly hope you don't have a job where people could be injured by
your stupidity. Your basic misunderstanding of the universe inplies that
you must be between 2 and 4 years old mentally. Nice work typing this
memo. How did you do it?

> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."

Or is it angular momentum? They are hard to tell apart if you don't know
what either one is.

> Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
> unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
> then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
> system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
> reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.
>

Here's a hint, buy a dictionary and look up that big word 'gravity'.

I guess you haven't heard of my bottled gravity. I'll sell you some and
you can paint it to the bottom of your feet like the rest of us. That
way if you lapse into nonbelief, you will still stick to earth. A ten
pound bottle is $19.95. But you need to order enough to match your
belief weight.

Just once, I like to hear a halfway intelligent question from a
believer.

> Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
> order for it to work. I am certain that there is no one on earth today
> who doesn't believe in the force of gravity. If any of you disagree,
> try to find me just *one* person who doesn't believe that there is such
> a thing as gravity. I'm betting you won't be able to, because if
> someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
> away a long time ago. That is why gravity is not like God. Even if
> you don't believe in God, he believes in YOU enough to keep the world
> spinning long enough to give you a chance to accept him.
>

Did you bother to pay attention while you were banging on the keyboard?
First you say gravity is like god, then in the same paragraph you say
gravity is not like god. Which is it and how does a balloon brain like
yourself know the answer?

By the way, I've never met a newborn baby who believed in gravity. I
guess that's why it's so easy for storks to carry them. How much would
you like to bet that I can't find someone who doesn't believe in
gravity. All I have to do is visit your mental hospital.

When a space rocket takes off, (you've heard of space travel I hope), do
the people aboard suddenly deny gravity so they will float?

> I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.

And I've noticed that people like you seem to worship the god of illogic
and stupidity.

> Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms. Here
> is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
> many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
> into my hospital.

How long have you been hospitalized? Was it a brain tumor?

> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

Man created god many years ago to scare the bajeebers out of really
stupid people like you. And the scam still works great today.

>
> It is really very simple when you think about it.

Very simple for very simple minds who can't really think about it.

>
> It also strikes me as downright ridiculous to claim that life
> could've arisen from natural processes here on earth. If that were the
> case, it would be happening all the time. Atheists, why aren't new
> creatures constantly climbing out of puddles of GOO as we speak?

Who says they don't. Did you visit every puddle on earth and inspect
every creature to prove there are no new ones?

> Plus, if it actually WERE possible to create life from goo,
> rest assured that we would've done it by now. After all, I think it's
> a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been, and
> every sceintific theory has already been tested and proven to either be
> true or false, so why have we not heard any word from the scientific
> community on this issue? Is it because they just want more money to
> further their careers? I think so.

If everything that can be invented already has been, then I guess we can
all go home and stop working on new inventions.

Creating life has already been done. Living viruses have been created in
the lab. What rock were you hiding under when the announcement came?

>
> For me, though, the only proof that I ever needed to validate
> my beliefs was the Bible. For one thing, the Bible is one of the only
> religious books that has had many different authors, but has remained
> virtually unchanged for more than 20 centuries. Another thing, it says
> right in it that all the other religions are false and that Jesus
> Christ is the only way to Heaven. It is the only book that makes that
> claim and the only book that addresses the issue of other religions.

Have you ever read the bible? If so, which version? Visit the book
store. Try to find two bibles from different publishers with the exact
same wording. And why are the stories in the bible not in chronalogical
order? Who screwed that up?

>
> If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own
> personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
> big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
> would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
> war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could
> FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
> atheist who was against peace.
>

If we all just behaved nice and got along, we'd all behave nice and get
along. Of coarse, first we have to kill everyone that doesn't believe
like we do.

> Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county
> (homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into

> Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem. The gang and


> drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
> finally be safe to walk at night.

My streets are safe to walk at night when all the addelpated religious
people stay home.

>
> Please take a little time to think about my post. It could, in
> the end, help to save your soul.

What soul, and why does it need to be saved. What is threating my soul
besides ignorant and scarry people like you?

I thought about your post for two seconds, which is two seconds longer
than you thought about it. Think about that for a second.

>
> Sincerely,
>
> Anne Ferguson

You scare me more than eternal damnation. If being a christian means
being so totally ignorant, I want nothing to do with it.

You should consider changing your name since you dragged this one down
pretty low.

YHWH

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>,
em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:

> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
> here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
> have considered before.

This post is positively delicious...

> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
> several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
> of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
> evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
> their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
> he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."

Reveal in what way?

> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
> himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
> believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
> unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
> gravity.

Uhh...

>
> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
> case:

You can try, poor thing.

The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
> fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
> STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space.

Is that so? Remember when I stopped the sun (i.e., stopped the earth from
spinning) for Joshua?

So why
> doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
> stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.

So God is... inertia?



> And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
> his children.
> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
> Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
> unique in the universe.

So, earth is the only place where we can find this gravity?

If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
> then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
> system have gravity or support life?

But... oh, never mind.

I'd like to, just once, get a
> reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.
>
> Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
> order for it to work.

Now we're getting into Cartesian philosophy here.

I am certain that there is no one on earth today
> who doesn't believe in the force of gravity. If any of you disagree,
> try to find me just *one* person who doesn't believe that there is such
> a thing as gravity. I'm betting you won't be able to, because if
> someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
> away a long time ago. That is why gravity is not like God. Even if
> you don't believe in God, he believes in YOU enough to keep the world
> spinning long enough to give you a chance to accept him.
>
> I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.
> Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms. Here
> is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
> many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
> into my hospital.
> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

As my good friend Berkeley said, "I prove God thusly." (Now kick rock)

> It is really very simple when you think about it.

Simple is better, isn't it.

> It also strikes me as downright ridiculous to claim that life
> could've arisen from natural processes here on earth. If that were the
> case, it would be happening all the time. Atheists, why aren't new
> creatures constantly climbing out of puddles of GOO as we speak?
> Plus, if it actually WERE possible to create life from goo,
> rest assured that we would've done it by now.

Actually, scientists have done it, but I wouldn't expect YOU to know about
that, innocent sweet lamb that you are.

After all, I think it's
> a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been, and
> every sceintific theory has already been tested and proven to either be
> true or false,

Madam, you are positively medieval.

so why have we not heard any word from the scientific
> community on this issue? Is it because they just want more money to
> further their careers? I think so.
>
> For me, though, the only proof that I ever needed to validate
> my beliefs was the Bible.

Big surprise.

For one thing, the Bible is one of the only
> religious books that has had many different authors, but has remained
> virtually unchanged for more than 20 centuries.

And the Iliad?

Another thing, it says
> right in it that all the other religions are false and that Jesus
> Christ is the only way to Heaven. It is the only book that makes that
> claim and the only book that addresses the issue of other religions.

So... uh.

> If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own
> personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
> big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
> would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
> war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could
> FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
> atheist who was against peace.

> Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county
> (homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into
> Jesus' arms,

Don't tell me Jesus, my only son, is gay!

V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem. The gan and
> drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
> finally be safe to walk at night.
>
> Please take a little time to think about my post. It could, in
> the end, help to save your soul.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Anne Ferguson

Thank you, Anne.

I love you,

God
Executive Director

YHWH

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <530jdu$e...@news.sas.ab.ca>, cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:

> Anne` (em...@address.omitted.for.privacy) wrote:
>
> : Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm

> : here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
> : have considered before.
>

> Well, you "hoped" incorrectly. FYI, in the future, it is considered good
> manners to read a NG's FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) before commencing
> to address certain points.
>

> : Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any evidence to support the


> : belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist."
>

> Elementary mistake #2: You incorrectly thinking you know what we think
> (really, if you had just read the FAQ, we wouldn't be going through all
> this). Correctly worded, a close-enough "atheist claim" would go more
> like: "You can't show me any evidence to support the *existence* of
> god(s), and so there is no reason for me to have a belief in
> he/she/it/them."
>

> : And their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,

> : he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."
> : Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
> : himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
> : believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
> : unless you have faith.
>

> ...So what you're saying is that we must believe in him in order to (have
> enough evidence that we may) believe in him. (Sarcasm mode on) *There's* a
> convincing argument!
>
> : In that way, he is analogous to the force of gravity.
>
> So now rocks 'n' stuff *believe* in gravity?
>

> : Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific

> : case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
> : fact, that we are all stuck its surface.
>

> Pardon me while I try to control my giggles...
>

> : So why doesn't it just *stop*?
>
> Uh...momentum?
>
> : The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."

>
> This reveals either that Anne is either:
>
> A> Trolling
> B> Writing a parody
> C> One of the most abysmally ignorant people in the world
>

> : Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
> : unique in the universe.
>

> To be sure, gravity is unique to Earth...
>

> : If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why then would it have gravity?


> : And how come no other planets in our solar system have gravity
>

> I can't take it any more -- this HAS to be a troll! And as such I give
> it an 8.5 out of a possible 10 -- she sounds so *sincere* that one might
> be suckered into believing she actually thinks this!
>

> : Here is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it

> : many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
> : into my hospital.
> : God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.
>

> Oh, good! An inmate runs the asylum!
>
> (The rest snipped -- He Whose Name Rymes With "Don Muck-Oy!" has
> *nothing* on *this* gal!)
>
> : Sincerely,
>
> : Anne Ferguson
>
> No, I really don't believe you're sincere -- way ta troll, girl!


Dear Czar,

I suspected as much, too. But upon further reflection, I realize only a
born-again Christian could be this dumb. Free-thinkers can't even fake
this stupidity. Truly.

Yours truly,

God
Executive Director

Phil Polli

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:

Anne,
Perhaps with your obvious expertise in logic and reasoning, you could help me
find any flaws in the following logical argument:

Assume: You actually made the attached statements.

A) Nobody, not even a creationist, could possibly be this stupid.
Therefore, you are a troll.
B) No troll would ever present such patently stupid arguments and expect
to take anyone in.
Therefore, you are not a troll.

This is obviously a contradiction, and the only assumption was that a person
exists who would make these statements.

Therefore, you do not exist. Q.E.D.


selected howlers:

> So why doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
>stop is because some being must be controlling it.

> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."

> And how come no other planets in our solar

>system have gravity or support life?

> Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in

>order for it to work.

>if someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated

>away a long time ago.

> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

> After all, I think it's

>a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been,

>every sceintific [sic] theory has already been tested and proven to either be
>true or false,

> For one thing, the Bible is one of the only
[what exactly does "one of the only" mean? ]


>religious books that has had many different authors, but has remained
>virtually unchanged for more than 20 centuries.

Phil Polli
p.p...@lucent.com


Wayne Throop

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

:: em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`)
:: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in fact,

:: that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever STOP
:: spinning, we would all literally fly off into space.

Where do people GET this nonsense?

The earth's spin has essentially NOTHING AT ALL to do with
why objects tend to fall towards its center and are hence
"stuck to its surface".

Yet I've heard this drivel literally dozens of different places recently.
As I say, where do such moronic memes COME from, how do they propogate,
and how can they be effectively exterminated?

:: So why doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't


:: just stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being
:: is God.

That's not "logic", that's just "because I say so".

--
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
thr...@cisco.com

--
Only in silence, the Word.
Only in darkness, Light.
Only in dying, Life.
Bright the hawk's flight on the empty sky.

--- excerpt from "The Creation of Ea"
from Ursula K. Leguin's "A Wizard of Earthsea"


Marzioli

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

>> because if
> > someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
> > away a long time ago. That is why gravity is not like God.

Im sorry to say that this is ridiculous. We are subject to the laws of
science no matter what our belief. How many countless civilizations have
taken gravity for granted, and not even pondered why they didn't get flung
off the earth? In a time not too far past, the earth was thought of as
flat. Did that make it flat? nope... similarly if we did not believe in
gravity, would that mean it wouldn't exist? Do we keep our babies and
young children tied to the wall because they do not know about Gravity, and
possibly do not even believe in it? God created natural laws that the
universe HAS to follow for order to be in existance. With the constants in
nature, how can you say that it is our belief that makes them constant?
Did God base the whole universe where it exists because we believe in it?


>>logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it

> > God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

Does the word fallacy mean anything here? no? How about circular
argumentation?


> Actually, scientists have done it, but I wouldn't expect YOU to know
about
> that, innocent sweet lamb that you are.

Now this too is ridiculous. The "goo" that I think she is talking about is
inorganic material... I know of NO instances where inorganic material has
been made into a living life form of ANY kind.


> > For me, though, the only proof that I ever needed to validate
> > my beliefs was the Bible.
>

Thats GREAT! But we have to make sure we do not add to the bible with our
own evidence that is not based in reality. The bible can defend itself
without us making things up. Not that Im putting you down, cause I admire
your confidence in the bible. Just be careful! It's easy to be trapped
into fallacies, and the like.

> Don't tell me Jesus, my only son, is gay!

Now sir.. no reason to be rude... we're all civilized individuals, no? Can
we not answer without wanting to insult one another?

Anyways Anne I do admire your post! I think that we as a people
(christians) have to make sure that we stick to facts and not theory, as so
many people would have us do. Not everything can be explained in life, and
that includes scientific matters. Fallacies should never be our key to
winning over a person, for the Truth is so much more than word games. I
think many people will find it in their hearts one day the need for Jesus,
and it is those seekers that we want to help. Jesus came down not to help
the healthy, but to save the sick. It is now our move... we all have to
admit that we are sick! To solve a problem you must acknowledge there is a
problem. Anyways God Bless you all! And happy truth seeking!

Samuel Marzioli
marz...@tdl.com

Come visit our web page at
http://www.tdl.com/~marzioli
It's a christian web page dedicated to answering questions about theism,
Christianity, and the bible. We gladly accept comments, and answer
questions (asked with a serious, and true heart) Come and check it out!


Michael Daunt

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

Ed. Stoebenau <esto...@vt.edu> wrote in article
<530sar$6...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>...


| em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:
|
|
| > Hello closet Christians.

| (snip)


| > God cannot work
| >unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
| >gravity.
|
| So if I deny gravity and jump up, I will be able to fly?
|

No. You have to throw yourself at the ground and miss (HHGTTG)


Eric Magnus Lehnscherr

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) submitted some sort of text:


> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
>here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
>have considered before.
> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
>several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
>of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
>evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
>their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
>he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."
> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
>himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
>believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
>unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
>gravity.

Anne, either you are one of the most naive fundies out there
or your another McCoy wannabe looking to get some desperately
needed attention. Either way you're looking to get a butt reaming
by the frequent atheists on this NG.

Faith, bite me.

[el snippo exorcito]


> Please take a little time to think about my post. It could, in
>the end, help to save your soul.


>Sincerely,

>Anne Ferguson

go play now


*MAGNUS*

BOB DOLE VIRUS: could be virulent,
but it's been around too long to
be much of a threat.


JTessler

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

"...send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those war-torn

Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. "

--Anne Ferguson

Ms. Ferguson, as a JEW (from as very nice separation-of-church-and-state
country called the US of A), I find the above notion absolutley
reprehensible. Keep your evengelism to yourselves, please.

jtessler

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>,
em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:

millers

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>,
em...@address.omitted.for.privacy says...

>
>
> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
>here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
>have considered before.
God cannot work
>unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
>gravity.

I've seen gravity work on rocks dozens of times. I don't think rocks believe
in God.


George C. Lindauer

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

Anne` (em...@address.omitted.for.privacy) wrote:
:
: Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
: here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
: have considered before.
: First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
: several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
: of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
: evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
: their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
: he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."

Good analysis...
: Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal

: himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to

: believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work

: unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
: gravity.

It's a question of who makes the first move. God expects the individual
to make an axiom about it FIRST... the individual wants god to prove the
axiom before he makes it. Really, if you and I have nothing in common
and we both expect the other to take the first move we'll get nowher.
Now for those atheists who are going to say 'But God SHOULD make the
first move' I will point out he did. In Egypt, in the desert, with various
prophets, he taught us many things about himself. People never opened
up, never trusted him. So now it is up to us... if we want a relationship
it is our turn to work for it. If not, well why are we sitting around
complaining that he won't give us candy when we didn't except it when he
DID give it to us?


:
: Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific

: case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
: fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
: STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
: doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
: stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.
: And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
: his children.
: The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
: Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
: unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
: then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
: system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
: reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

You're going to get hacked and slashed here because the atheists will use
any lack of knowledge you've got to say your whole argument is a washout.
Spinning earth is centrifugal force, an indpendent force from gravity.
It acutally lessens the gravitational effect. I say your argument is
still sound though because all you have to do is replace "stops spinning"
with "graivty goes away" and that fixes it. But you've probably lost the
atheists at this point because if all the i's and t's aren't dotted they
get finicky and start blabbering.

David

millers

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>, em...@address.omitted.for.privacy
says...

> If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own

>personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
>big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
>would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
>war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could
>FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice?

> Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county

>(homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into
>Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem. The gan and
>drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
>finally be safe to walk at night.

Weep for the future, Na'Toth. Weep for us all.


Evan Kaiser

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

Ed. Stoebenau wrote:
>
> <note followups>
>
> cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:
>
> >This reveals either that Anne is either:
>
> > A> Trolling
> > B> Writing a parody
> > C> One of the most abysmally ignorant people in the world
>
> I must pick [C]. I have talked to her on IRC, and can tell you that
> she actually thinks this way.
>
> I herby nominate Anne as the new wearer of the honorary Br*ceW crown.

:) I second the motion.

Evan

--
Evan Kaiser
Northwestern University
http://eld094038.res-ha.res-hall.nwu.edu/

Bob Casanova

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

If you're going to troll, at least a modicum of subtlety is required.

In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>,

em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:
>
> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
>here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
>have considered before.
> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
>several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
>of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
>evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
>their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
>he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."

> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
>himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
>believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
>unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
>gravity.
>

See?

<snip>

>
>Sincerely,
>
>Anne Ferguson
>

Bob C.

"No one's life, liberty or property is safe while
the legislature is in session." - Mark Twain

Michael D. Painter

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to


Quowong P Liu <qp...@mockery.yrek\nospam9610030734/.com> wrote in article
<52vqa3$o...@boris.eden.com>...


> In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>, appearing in
alt.atheism,
> em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) writes,
>

> > The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
> >Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
> >unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
> >then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
> >system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
> >reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.
>

> Maybe all those other planets don't have gravity because
> the aliens living there aren't wearing HEAVY BOOTS!?
>
> [more troll bait (probably written by do...@faribault.polaristel.net)
snipped]
>
> --
> qp...@yrek.com Athiness cannot be
ordered.

This would certainly explain all those people who go missing every year.
We also know now why children drag their feet, they are not sure if they
believe.

The "What's your favorite colour" scene in Search for the holy grail comes
to mind.

Do you believe in gravity?
I'm not sure.
Whoooooosh.

mor...@centuryinter.net

unread,
Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to


> Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
> here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
> have considered before.
> First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
> several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
> of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
> evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
> their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
> he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."
> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
> himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
> believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
> unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
> gravity.
>

> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
> case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
> fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
> STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
> doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
> stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.
> And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
> his children.

> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
> Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
> unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
> then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
> system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
> reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.
>

> If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own
> personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
> big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
> would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
> war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could

> FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
> atheist who was against peace.
>

> Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county
> (homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into
> Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem. The gan and
> drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
> finally be safe to walk at night.
>

> Please take a little time to think about my post. It could, in
> the end, help to save your soul.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Anne Ferguson
>

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
I presume you are a troll as it stretches credibility that even a
creationist/literalist/fundamentalist could be as ignnorant as you presumably
are about the things that are so actively discussed in the various newsgroups.
James <mor...@centuryinter.net>
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&


George C. Lindauer

unread,
Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

Anne` (em...@address.omitted.for.privacy) wrote:
:
: Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
: here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may never
: have considered before.
: First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
: several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware
: of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
: evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
: their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
: he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."

Since everyone thinks this is a troll (I usually take things as they
are presented rather than presuming) I thought I'd do some hack & slash.
This is neither pro-christian nor pro-atheist... although the atheists
are going to be mad at some of what I say.

Think what would happen if Newton had decided to completely ignore the
apple that fell on his head, and then say ' I need proof for my theory
of gravitation'. Where would he have been? In the same way I think
atheists have plenty of proof available to them if they would only study
the facts of life instead of saying there is no proof. I know what I'm going
to get now... this notion that if there is proof I have to find it and I
have to serve it up on a silver platter. I've done a little bit of that,
but I'm out of it now. If you don't want the truth you won't find it;
if you do want the truth you have to be responsible for finding it yourself.
Sorry folks, if you can't take responsibility for yourself, well, I'm
nopt taking responsibility for you so you are out in the cold.

As to this all-powerful God reveailing himself- conversation is a two-way
street. God DID reveal himself to the people, back in the days of moses.
They decided not to trust him. After a while he got tired of the lack
of trust and quit showing himself to people. You honestly think it
would be better today? Now it is our turn to seek him.

Also think about the effect on free will. Now God IS powerful enough
to make you believe in him by giving you evidence, but if you HAVE to
believe then you don't get to make a choice as to whether or not to believe.
So by giving you absolute proof God is encouraging you to not exercise
your own thoughts in the matter. Now at this point I'm also going to
say it is YOUR assumption that God cares whether you believe in him or not...
but God isn't like men, he isn't trying to get everyone to believe he is
the greatest thing since sliced bread. He has other agendas in mind rather
than a simple 'but everyone must pay homage to me to make me happy'.
Belive you me... if God wanted you to do something you would be doing it,
and you would have no choice in the matter... the greatest give that God
has given is to allow you your own choice.

Which brings us to the issue... how do you relate to leaders? Leaders have
armies, and police to enforce things on you, and you have to do the things
they say and not do the things they don't say. You are used to that. In fact
I suspect much of the atheistic point of view is built around the memory
of what happened when we let leaders get too zealous in guiding us toward
religion... you want the status quo to stay the same so you don't have to
go through that. Unfortunately you don't realize yet that leaders can use
ANY tool just as harshly... including the science that you embrace.

In any case, given that you are used to following leaders, and the more
powerful a leader is the more emphasis there is on making sure you follow
his ways... what would happen if God made himself known, plainly? You
would come to recognize his power, and you would tremble lest you crossed
him. And you would study how NOT to cross him and make rules that were
in line with whatever rules you thought he wanted. Sorry to say it folks,
but you would relate exactly in the way you are afraid you would relate...
like automatons never getting to do what they want. God doesn't want that
for you... and that is why there is a choice to not believe.

: Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
: himself to you unless you have faith in him. In essence, in order to
: believe in God, you first have to believe in him. God cannot work
: unless you have faith. In that way, he is analogous to the force of
: gravity.

Let me ask you, when is the last time you asked a scientific principle
to prove itself to you BEFORE you made a set of axioms up that were
a sufficient foundation for a theory? But GOD is a theory which
should prove itself with no axioms? Really, I've said it before and
I'll say it again... you folks are insufficient to the task of exploring
your own background in the light of your theories.

:
: Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific

: case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
: fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
: STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
: doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
: stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.
: And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
: his children.
: The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
: Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth
: unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
: then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
: system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
: reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

Of course this makes a nice troll since it is totally unfactual. Most
christians aren't concerned with facts... therefore all christians aren't
concerned with facts. Meanwhile as I alluded to above, atheists only
seem to facts that are given to them on a silver platter and won't put
any thought into things themselves.

:
: Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in

: order for it to work. I am certain that there is no one on earth today
: who doesn't believe in the force of gravity. If any of you disagree,
: try to find me just *one* person who doesn't believe that there is such
: a thing as gravity. I'm betting you won't be able to, because if
: someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
: away a long time ago. That is why gravity is not like God. Even if
: you don't believe in God, he believes in YOU enough to keep the world
: spinning long enough to give you a chance to accept him.

I notice that you are making the assumption that if one doesn't believe
in gravity implies gravity doesn't exist is necessarily wrong. This is
beyond the realm of science; science CANNOT speculate on what might be...
it can only speculate on what HAS BEEN. This is a common misconception
among atheists:

1) Science seems pretty accurate
2) A scientific theory doesn't suggest a way for something to happen
3) Therefore it can't happen

This is bogus because you've put some oranges in your applecart. Another issue
is the idea that if a theory suggests that something CAN'T happen it
necessarily can't. If Einstein had taken Newtons law as a limiting factor
rather than saying that it works for some phenomena but lets see if it
works for all phenomena, we wouldn't know about relativity. Science is
good for predicting the outcome of events WE HAVE EXPERIENCED... but the
positive outcome of science doesn't lead directly to the conclusion.
'therefore what science seems to say can't happen really can't. You guys
talk about facts a lot, but you really don't even have your own facts
straight...

:
: I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.

: Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms. Here
: is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
: many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
: into my hospital.

:o God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

That is absurd from a proof standpoint... but again, what scientific
theory have you got that can stand on its own without the presence of
making some kind of assumption first? You simply don't have it, a science
that proves itself independently of any axioms. Now the axioms that
science makes up are allowed because lots of people can experience them...
but the axiom of other people aren't allowed becase scientists can't
experience them? What are you, Gods that you know that your own
experiences are the limit of all that can be experienced?

: It also strikes me as downright ridiculous to claim that life

: could've arisen from natural processes here on earth. If that were the
: case, it would be happening all the time. Atheists, why aren't new
: creatures constantly climbing out of puddles of GOO as we speak?
: Plus, if it actually WERE possible to create life from goo,
: rest assured that we would've done it by now. After all, I think it's
: a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been, and
: every sceintific theory has already been tested and proven to either be
: true or false, so why have we not heard any word from the scientific
: community on this issue? Is it because they just want more money to
: further their careers? I think so.

I agree, insubstantiated logic. But the fact that it is insubstantiated
logic in no way has any reflection on the veracity of your claims. In
other words I can't use the falseness of 'I can see through walls'
to substantiate a claim that science is the only useful way of life,
praise its name!

:
: If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own

: personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
: big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
: would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
: war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could
: FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
: atheist who was against peace.

But you think that scientific means can accomplish such goals conveniently
without the onslaught of leaders who take advantage of their people?

This is the real argument here... what injustices we are going to allow
our leaders to perpetrate. We all know what religious leaders in the
past have done to us... and I agree that it was not nice at all. But if
you think scientific principles are pure, that they can never be utilized
by leaders to take advantage of your people, then I would say you aren't
grounded in reality. That one is probably simple to disprove, except for the
fact that you won't accept the proof...

:
: Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county

: (homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into
: Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem. The gan and
: drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
: finally be safe to walk at night.

Why is all this a problem? You actually think these things don't exist
for a reason? But you are scientists, you think EVERYTHING exists for
a reason, don't you? Well which is it, is there a reason behind things
or is there no reason behind things?

David

Todd Matthew Koson

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

Andrew Dalton (asda...@umich.edu) wrote:
: This has *got* to be a troll, or else I'm underestimating the abysmal

: ignorance of fundamentalist Christians. It's hard to believe that
: anyone could really spout such a list of fallacies.

Hey, couldn't have put it better myself. I could forgive the troll,
since, after all they were trolling, but:

To Mr. George C. Lindauer - you are the only on Usenet
(next to John McCoy) who attempts to back up the pointless assertions by
a troll. You
have got to be the biggest . . . . oh, I'm sorry, University of
Louisville. Hmmm, that explains it, never mind.

Todd Koson
University of Michigan
A real school with real books. Do you know what those are?

bob puharic

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:

> Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
>himself to you unless you have faith in him

a perfect catch 22...he wont show himself unless you believe, and you
cant believe unless he shows h imself....thus he cant be
falsified...unverifiable.

>

That being is God.
> And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
>his children.

>If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why
>then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
>system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
>reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

all planets have gravity...its a basic property of mass. I appreciate
your effort, but PLEASE get the science right!

> I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.
>Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms. Here
>is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
>many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
>into my hospital.

> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

as far as logic goes, all you have to do is prove god created man.

It is really very simple when you think about it.
>

> It also strikes me as downright ridiculous to claim that life
>could've arisen from natural processes here on earth. If that were the
>case, it would be happening all the time. Atheists, why aren't new
>creatures constantly climbing out of puddles of GOO as we speak?
> Plus, if it actually WERE possible to create life from goo,
>rest

ah, we scientists are doing work on evolution all the time...it's been
one of the keys in developing aids vaccines (i refer you to scientific
american.) PLEASE dont lecture me on science..as a scientist, i tell
you you need to know FAR more than you present!

> For me, though, the only proof that I ever needed to validate
>my beliefs was the Bible.

As i say, you have to prove it...which you havent done. blind belief
in a scripture is not proof.

> If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own
>personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
>big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
>would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those
>war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries.


Yeah, how about them dumb jews...xtians tried to murder them but they
still wouldnt convert...how STUPID can they be...think you can kill
'em all off?

> Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county
>(homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into
>Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem.

arent too many gays walking around gunning down people the last time i
checked. According to "cbn news" 85% of the people in prison call
themselves xtians. mebbe we should outlaw xtianity.

anne, this was a very embarrassing post for you to do. please dont
display your ignorance. I know you believe what you say is true. but
it is unproven. please read abit more. even believers can be literate
and present their arguments far better than you've done. im an
atheist, and even I will give you what help i can.


erikc

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`)
in message <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>
dated 3 Oct 1996 04:29:16 GMT wrote:

[a bunch of sweet sounding b.s.]

>>| Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
>>|order for it to work.

Gravity works because the earth sucks.

[rest of b.s. snipped]


Erikc

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For good clean fun, visit: http://www.anus.com/


Edward Cooper

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

Graeme Kennedy (gra...@seercom.com) wrote:
: In article <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net>,
: em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:
:
: Troll.
:
: -Graeme.

Troll.

Spelling is too good.

Too much misdirected intelligence.

Scientific illiteracy is even beyond that of a fundie.

Too long a train of thought for a fundie.

--
Edward H. Cooper :You can't teach an old dogma new tricks.
VA :
:

Matt Silberstein

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

In talk.origins em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) wrote:

Thanks, but this has nothing to do with talk.origins. And if you don't
want us to have your email address maybe you should not bother to
witness at all.

[snip]

> Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
>case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
>fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
>STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
>doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just

>stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.

> And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are
>his children.

This has got to be a troll. Please tell me this is a troll. You can't
believe this.

> The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
>Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes earth

>unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why

>then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our solar
>system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
>reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.

Ok, it is a troll. I did not think anyone could think what you said
before. But I know that no one could think this.

BTW, I can see now why you want your privacy.

> Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in

>order for it to work. I am certain that there is no one on earth today
>who doesn't believe in the force of gravity. If any of you disagree,
>try to find me just *one* person who doesn't believe that there is such
>a thing as gravity. I'm betting you won't be able to, because if
>someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
>away a long time ago. That is why gravity is not like God. Even if
>you don't believe in God, he believes in YOU enough to keep the world
>spinning long enough to give you a chance to accept him.

This is great stuff actually. I changed my mind. Thanks for posting in
talk.origins.

>
> I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.
>Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms. Here
>is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it
>many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
>into my hospital.
> God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.

Do you know about theReverend Colonel Von Berlitz? I think the two of
you would have a lot to talk about.

> It is really very simple when you think about it.
>
> It also strikes me as downright ridiculous to claim that life
>could've arisen from natural processes here on earth. If that were the
>case, it would be happening all the time. Atheists, why aren't new
>creatures constantly climbing out of puddles of GOO as we speak?

Ah, but you spelled GOO correctly. That is a sign.

> Plus, if it actually WERE possible to create life from goo,

>rest assured that we would've done it by now. After all, I think it's
>a safe bet that everything that can be invented already has been, and
>every sceintific theory has already been tested and proven to either be
>true or false, so why have we not heard any word from the scientific
>community on this issue? Is it because they just want more money to
>further their careers? I think so.

> For me, though, the only proof that I ever needed to validate

>my beliefs was the Bible. For one thing, the Bible is one of the only
>religious books that has had many different authors, but has remained
>virtually unchanged for more than 20 centuries. Another thing, it says
>right in it that all the other religions are false and that Jesus
>Christ is the only way to Heaven. It is the only book that makes that
>claim and the only book that addresses the issue of other religions.

> If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own

>personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
>big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office, we
>would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all those

>war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could
>FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
>atheist who was against peace.

> Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county

>(homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into

>Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem. The gan and
>drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
>finally be safe to walk at night.

You misspelled Paul's name, it is Gans. And why do you think he is a
problem?

> Please take a little time to think about my post. It could, in
>the end, help to save your soul.


>Sincerely,

>Anne Ferguson

Matt Silberstein
-----------------------------
The opinions expressed in this post reflect those of the Walt
Disney Corp. Which might come as a surprise to them.


Paul Johnson

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

In article <531i69$8...@hermes.louisville.edu>,
gcli...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu says...
>
>Anne` (em...@address.omitted.for.privacy) wrote:

(BTW, I think "Anne" is a troll)

>: [...] Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any

>: evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist." And
>: their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
>: he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."
>

>Good analysis...

As others have pointed out here, what we *actually* conclude is that
there is no reason to believe in a God. This is a weaker statement,
and much more defensible. Please deal with our real position rather
than a straw man.

>: Atheists, what you need to realize is that God will not reveal
>: himself to you unless you have faith in him.

>It's a question of who makes the first move. God expects the individual
>to make an axiom about it FIRST... the individual wants god to prove the
>axiom before he makes it. Really, if you and I have nothing in common
>and we both expect the other to take the first move we'll get nowher.

But God is meant to be an all-powerful and all-knowing entity, whereas
I am just little old me. Surely that puts the onus on him, since he is
capable of solving the impasse, whilst I am not (and I did try).

>Now for those atheists who are going to say 'But God SHOULD make the
>first move' I will point out he did. In Egypt, in the desert, with various
>prophets, he taught us many things about himself. People never opened
>up, never trusted him.

Not quite. These things are alledged to have occured in the bible.
There are many reasons for distrusting the bible as a historical
source, starting with the amount of biased editing that has gone into
it.

>So now it is up to us... if we want a relationship

>it is our turn to work for it.

Let me get this straight: you claim that God won't initiate contact with
me because he is still in a huff about being turned down by some of my
ancestors a few thousand years ago? Talk about holding a grudge! If God
is that petty, I probably wouldn't like Him anyway.

[Anne's wibble about gravity being due to divine intervention deleted]

>You're going to get hacked and slashed here because the atheists will use
>any lack of knowledge you've got to say your whole argument is a washout.

Well, if she demonstrates such utter ignorance about something we all
understand, why should we take her word about anything else.

>Spinning earth is centrifugal force, an indpendent force from gravity.
>It acutally lessens the gravitational effect. I say your argument is
>still sound though because all you have to do is replace "stops spinning"
>with "graivty goes away" and that fixes it. But you've probably lost the
>atheists at this point because if all the i's and t's aren't dotted they
>get finicky and start blabbering.

Rather than just turning our brains off and letting our heads fill up with
nonsense?

Paul.

--
Paul Johnson | GEC-Marconi Ltd is not responsible for my opinions. |
+44 1245 242244 +-----------+-----------------------------------------+
Work: <paul.j...@gecm.com> | You are lost in a twisty maze of little
Home: <Pa...@treetop.demon.co.uk> | standards, all different.


cz...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

George C. Lindauer (gcli...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu) wrote:

...Something basically agreeing with what...

: Anne` (em...@address.omitted.for.privacy) wrote:

...so what we had here where, essentially, words from "Dumb and Dumber".
--
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EAC Minister-without-portfolio
******************************
Me fail English?
That's unpossible!
- Ralph Wiggum
******************************

Doug Groseclose

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

>Anne` (em...@address.omitted.for.privacy) wrote:
>:

>Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe
in it in
>order for it to work.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha, good one!!!!!!!! Drop an
apple, Annie. Does it believe in gravity?

>If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as
their own
>personal savior, we would be much better off. If we
could just get a
>big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals
out of office, we
>: would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if
you will, to all those
>: war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then
the world could
>: FINALLY unite for peace.

What about those pesky Biblethumpers in Northern
Ireland?

Generally this was one of the funniest posts I've
read. On the 1-10 scale for Wild Exageration it gets a
9.0, a 9.8 for Factual Obfuscation/Ignorance and, a
solid 9.5 on the Weird Logic scale.


bob puharic

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

paul.j...@gecm.com (Paul Johnson) wrote:

this wouldnt be paul johnson the noted historian, would it?


erikc

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

thr...@sheol.org (Wayne Throop)
in message <8443...@sheol.org>
dated Thu, 03 Oct 1996 20:34:48 GMT wrote:

>>|:: em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`)
>>|:: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in fact,


>>|:: that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever STOP
>>|:: spinning, we would all literally fly off into space.

>>|Where do people GET this nonsense?

I have no idea. It seems like Anne lives in some kind of cartoon universe.

>>|The earth's spin has essentially NOTHING AT ALL to do with
>>|why objects tend to fall towards its center and are hence
>>|"stuck to its surface".

>>|Yet I've heard this drivel literally dozens of different places recently.

You mean there are other groups where this is being spouted? And I thought
that alt.religion.scientology was pretty bad.

>>|As I say, where do such moronic memes COME from, how do they propogate,
>>|and how can they be effectively exterminated?

Home schooling? A verse in the bible? Spontaneous generation? I don't
know how they originate, but given some of the other things religionists
believe in, this can't be any weirder. And I doubt that you'll ever get
rid of such nonsense. There seems to be some kind of natural law that
dictates that there will always be a certain level of stupidity in the
world.

>>|:: So why doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't


>>|:: just stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being
>>|:: is God.

>>|That's not "logic", that's just "because I say so".

Aw shit man, I thought exploding volcanoes made it spin. ;^)

>>|--
>>| Only in silence, the Word.
>>| Only in darkness, Light.
>>| Only in dying, Life.
>>| Bright the hawk's flight on the empty sky.

>>| --- excerpt from "The Creation of Ea"
>>| from Ursula K. Leguin's "A Wizard of Earthsea"

Mitchell Coffey

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

Rob Glanville wrote:

> ... your stupidity. Your basic misunderstanding of the universe > inplies that you must be between 2 and 4 years old mentally ...

Rob,

I must protest! My 5 year-old daughter, when she was 4 knew that
gravity exists on all planets, and had a generally superior
understanding of basic science than Ms. Anne. She watches "Bill Nye the
Science Guy" and "The Magic School Bus" every day.

Recently, While I was trying to show her off to friends -- low of me, I
confess -- I causally asked her if she could tell the guests the names
of the planets. She did, in order of distance from the sun. That done,
she paused, then injected the caveat that for the next few years Pluto
will actually be inside the orbit of Neptune, so that ...

But I digress. You do a disservice of pre-schoolers every where by
insisting that they are incapable of exceeding the scientific knowledge
of our local literallists.

Mitchell Coffey

Mitchell Coffey

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to Rob Glanville

Eric Gunnerson

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

> gcli...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (George C. Lindauer) wrote in
article <531ki8$8...@hermes.louisville.edu>...

> Anne` (em...@address.omitted.for.privacy) wrote:
> :
> : Hello closet Christians. My name is Anne Ferguson, and I'm
> : here, hopefully, to open your eyes to a few possibilities you may
never
> : have considered before.
> : First of all, I have been reading a lot of your posts for
> : several months now, and I think the atheists who post here are unaware

> : of some simple facts. Their basic claim is, "You can't show me any
> : evidence to support the belief in a God, and so he doesn't exist."
And
> : their basic trump card is, "If there were really an all-powerful God,
> : he could just reveal himself to me and then I'd believe."
>
> Since everyone thinks this is a troll (I usually take things as they
> are presented rather than presuming) I thought I'd do some hack & slash.
> This is neither pro-christian nor pro-atheist... although the atheists
> are going to be mad at some of what I say.

While I think it's possible that Anne` is a troll, I find it more
enjoyable to treat her as if she was serious. And therefore I do.

>
> Think what would happen if Newton had decided to completely ignore the
> apple that fell on his head, and then say ' I need proof for my theory
> of gravitation'. Where would he have been?

In obscurity? In church? At home? I give up. Where would he have been?


> In the same way I think
> atheists have plenty of proof available to them if they would only study
> the facts of life instead of saying there is no proof. I know what I'm
going
> to get now... this notion that if there is proof I have to find it and I
> have to serve it up on a silver platter. I've done a little bit of
that,
> but I'm out of it now. If you don't want the truth you won't find it;
> if you do want the truth you have to be responsible for finding it
yourself.
> Sorry folks, if you can't take responsibility for yourself, well, I'm
> nopt taking responsibility for you so you are out in the cold.

Ah. I see what your saying.

"I believe in god, and I've found things to support my belief. Therefore,
you should believe in god and find things to support your belief"

Have you put the cart before the horse on this one?

> As to this all-powerful God reveailing himself- conversation is a
two-way
> street. God DID reveal himself to the people, back in the days of
moses.
> They decided not to trust him. After a while he got tired of the lack
> of trust and quit showing himself to people. You honestly think it
> would be better today? Now it is our turn to seek him.

So, let me get this straight.

Your god revealed himself to people in Moses' time, and they didn't
believe him - having seen god with their own eyes. But you, a few millenia
later, believe in him without having seen god. Apparently those who *have*
seen him weren't very impressed...

> Also think about the effect on free will. Now God IS powerful enough
> to make you believe in him by giving you evidence, but if you HAVE to
> believe then you don't get to make a choice as to whether or not to
believe.
> So by giving you absolute proof God is encouraging you to not exercise
> your own thoughts in the matter. Now at this point I'm also going to
> say it is YOUR assumption that God cares whether you believe in him or
not...
> but God isn't like men, he isn't trying to get everyone to believe he is
> the greatest thing since sliced bread. He has other agendas in mind
rather
> than a simple 'but everyone must pay homage to me to make me happy'.
> Belive you me... if God wanted you to do something you would be doing
it,
> and you would have no choice in the matter... the greatest give that God
> has given is to allow you your own choice.

If god *isn't* trying to get everyone to believe in him, why the hell did
he tell his followers to go out and recruit more followers? Why the hell
are you annoying us here rather than living in peace?

And if god has given us the choice, why are you trying to take it away by
working to convince us to believe? Are you not working *against* the will
of god?

> Which brings us to the issue... how do you relate to leaders? Leaders
have
> armies, and police to enforce things on you, and you have to do the
things
> they say and not do the things they don't say. You are used to that.
In fact
> I suspect much of the atheistic point of view is built around the memory
> of what happened when we let leaders get too zealous in guiding us
toward
> religion... you want the status quo to stay the same so you don't have
to
> go through that. Unfortunately you don't realize yet that leaders can
use
> ANY tool just as harshly... including the science that you embrace.

Two points:

1) It's your philosophy that's built on authority, not mine.
2) The fact that tools can be used for bad purposes is so obvious that a
child can grasp it.

I tried. I tried hard. But I just can't make any sense of this paragraph.
This first one, okay, it's a rant, and obviously silly. But the second one
- it just doesn't parse for me.

> :
> : Maybe I can make myself clearer by presenting a scientific
> : case: The earth is spinning around at an amazing rate; so fast, in
> : fact, that we are all stuck its surface. If the earth were to ever
> : STOP spinning, we would all literally fly off into space. So why
> : doesn't it just *stop*? Logically, the only reason it doesn't just
> : stop is because some being must be controlling it. That being is God.

> : And why does he keep the earth spinning? Because he loves us; we are

> : his children.
> : The force created by the earth's spinning is called "gravity."
> : Gravity is what makes life on earth possible and it is what makes
earth
> : unique in the universe. If earth *wasn't* created soley for life, why

> : then would it have gravity? And how come no other planets in our
solar
> : system have gravity or support life? I'd like to, just once, get a
> : reasonable answer to that question from an atheist.
>
> Of course this makes a nice troll since it is totally unfactual. Most
> christians aren't concerned with facts... therefore all christians
aren't
> concerned with facts. Meanwhile as I alluded to above, atheists only
> seem to facts that are given to them on a silver platter and won't put
> any thought into things themselves.

But isn't that the whole point of *faith*? When pressed theists always
resort to an appeal to 'the unknowable'. The extent to which they do this,
they are ignoring facts.

> : Gravity is a lot like God because you have to believe in it in
> : order for it to work. I am certain that there is no one on earth
today
> : who doesn't believe in the force of gravity. If any of you disagree,
> : try to find me just *one* person who doesn't believe that there is
such
> : a thing as gravity. I'm betting you won't be able to, because if
> : someone actually DIDN'T believe in gravity, he/she would've floated
> : away a long time ago. That is why gravity is not like God. Even if
> : you don't believe in God, he believes in YOU enough to keep the world
> : spinning long enough to give you a chance to accept him.
>
> I notice that you are making the assumption that if one doesn't believe
> in gravity implies gravity doesn't exist is necessarily wrong. This is
> beyond the realm of science; science CANNOT speculate on what might
be...
> it can only speculate on what HAS BEEN. This is a common misconception
> among atheists:
>
> 1) Science seems pretty accurate
> 2) A scientific theory doesn't suggest a way for something to happen
> 3) Therefore it can't happen

1) Scientific theory is quite accurate
2) There does not exist a theory that describes what god is, or how it
acts
3) Evidence for this 'god-thingy' does not meet the objective standards of
science
4) Therefore, the idea of 'god' is of no use to science.

Before you start to complain, I'd like to come up with a theory that
describes god, and then, a set of experiments that we can perform that
will show whether god exists. And at least one that could show that god
doesn't exist, since all theories are falsifiable.

>
> This is bogus because you've put some oranges in your applecart.
Another issue
> is the idea that if a theory suggests that something CAN'T happen it
> necessarily can't. If Einstein had taken Newtons law as a limiting
factor
> rather than saying that it works for some phenomena but lets see if it
> works for all phenomena, we wouldn't know about relativity. Science is
> good for predicting the outcome of events WE HAVE EXPERIENCED... but the
> positive outcome of science doesn't lead directly to the conclusion.
> 'therefore what science seems to say can't happen really can't. You
guys
> talk about facts a lot, but you really don't even have your own facts
> straight...

And you have nary a clue about how science works. Newton's theories are
plenty good under the conditions for which he formulated them, but were at
odds with some of the experimental data. Einstein's theories were a better
fit for the data in those conditions, and fit the data under Newton's
conditions. They are therefore applicable in a wider number of
circumstances - but we still use Newton's versions when we study motion.

I'm somewhat at a loss to come up with any method of predicting events
that we have never experienced. Other than pure conjecture.

> : I also notice that atheists seem to worship the god of logic.
> : Well, I think it is fairly simple to prove God along those terms.
Here
> : is a simple, logical sentence which is irrefutable, and I have used it

> : many times over the years to convert some of the patients that come
> : into my hospital.
> :o God created man. Man exists. Therefore, God exists.
>
> That is absurd from a proof standpoint... but again, what scientific
> theory have you got that can stand on its own without the presence of
> making some kind of assumption first? You simply don't have it, a
science
> that proves itself independently of any axioms. Now the axioms that
> science makes up are allowed because lots of people can experience
them...
> but the axiom of other people aren't allowed becase scientists can't
> experience them? What are you, Gods that you know that your own
> experiences are the limit of all that can be experienced?

Please list the axioms that science requires.

The only one I can think of has to do with repeatability, but that seems
so obvious (and well supported) to not require much argument.

Science doesn't say that there is nothing outside of it's framework. It
says that science can only generate useful information about those things
inside the framework. And it's been pretty successfull at that, which is
why the method has survived.

Do you realize how silly you look? You're claiming that science doesn't
work very well, and yet your claiming it by typing a message on a computer
connected to a global network that wouldn't have been possible without
science. Can you say "hypocrite"?

What sort of technological advancement has come out of religion?

>
> :
> : If more people would come to accept Jesus Christ as their own
> : personal savior, we would be much better off. If we could just get a
> : big enough concensus in the U.S. and get the liberals out of office,
we
> : would be able to send a missionary "invasion" if you will, to all
those
> : war-torn Muslem, Jew, and Hindu countries. Then the world could
> : FINALLY unite for peace. Wouldn't that be nice? I have never met an
> : atheist who was against peace.
>
> But you think that scientific means can accomplish such goals
conveniently
> without the onslaught of leaders who take advantage of their people?
>
> This is the real argument here... what injustices we are going to allow
> our leaders to perpetrate. We all know what religious leaders in the
> past have done to us... and I agree that it was not nice at all. But if
> you think scientific principles are pure, that they can never be
utilized
> by leaders to take advantage of your people, then I would say you aren't
> grounded in reality. That one is probably simple to disprove, except
for the
> fact that you won't accept the proof...

Well, duh. As I stated above, this is obvious.

You say that religious leaders have done horrendous things. I'll agree
with you there. But then you claim that scientific principles can also be
misused. Where's your proof?

Here's your argument:
Religion has a track record of misusing power.
There is no such track record for leaders with science, but scientific
discoveries can be misused.
Therefore, we should look to religion.

You kind of lost me there, George. Weren't you trying to argue that we
should look to religion? Your argument seems to be a brilliant exposition
of why we should *avoid* religion.

> :
> : Furthermore, if groups of people right here in our own county
> : (homosexuals, for example) would turn away from their sin and into
> : Jesus' arms, V.D. and AIDS would no longer be a problem. The gan and
> : drug problem would wither into non-existance, and the streets would
> : finally be safe to walk at night.
>
> Why is all this a problem? You actually think these things don't exist
> for a reason? But you are scientists, you think EVERYTHING exists for
> a reason, don't you? Well which is it, is there a reason behind things
> or is there no reason behind things?

At the most basic level, there is no reason the universe exists. It simply
is. As for me personally, I could say that I exist because my parents
decided to have kids - which is true.

Why are we here?
Because we're here.

Why does it happen?
Because it happens.

Rush, Roll the Bones.

Eric Gunnerson

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

> gcli...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (George C. Lindauer) wrote in
article <531i69$8...@hermes.louisville.edu>...

>
> It's a question of who makes the first move. God expects the individual
> to make an axiom about it FIRST... the individual wants god to prove the
> axiom before he makes it. Really, if you and I have nothing in common
> and we both expect the other to take the first move we'll get nowher.
> Now for those atheists who are going to say 'But God SHOULD make the
> first move' I will point out he did. In Egypt, in the desert, with
various
> prophets, he taught us many things about himself. People never opened
> up, never trusted him. So now it is up to us... if we want a
relationship

> it is our turn to work for it. If not, well why are we sitting around
> complaining that he won't give us candy when we didn't except it when he
> DID give it to us?

I've responded to this before, but I just can't resist.

Something that you call 'god' revealed itself *firsthand* to people in
Egypt, and they didn't trust it *even though* they had seen it with their
own eyes. They examined the evidence and found it wanting.

Now, 3000ish years later, you claim that the fact that they *didn't*
believe is reason for you to believe.

Doesn't this strike you as strange? Isn't the fact that they didn't
believe a good reason for you not to believe.

Dennis F. Hefferman

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
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In <52vfes$i...@cronkite.polaristel.net> em...@address.omitted.for.privacy (Anne`) writes:

[mass snip]

TROLLOMETER: [0 25 50 75 100] PEGGED
[ /]

Thought so.


--
Dennis Francis Heffernan IRC: FuzyLogic heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu
Montclair State University #include <disclaim.h> Computer Science/Philosophy
"I guess my work around here has all been done."
-- The Devil, in "The Garden of Allah", Don Henley

Fredric L. Rice

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Oct 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/5/96