Re: [SysSciWG] Abridged summary of syssciwg@googlegroups.com - 23 Messages in 2 Topics

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Mary Edson

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Aug 18, 2013, 4:23:49 PM8/18/13
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Douglas Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid comes to mind. Coincidentally, in the 1990s Texas Instruments had three DEC VAXs named after the book's title, which served their platform for SCADA systems. This discussion also brings us to the cybernetics of Jack's question.

Mary

Mary C. Edson, Ph.D.
mared...@gmail.com
(561)632-5436 (US Eastern)



On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 7:24 AM, <syss...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Group: http://groups.google.com/group/syssciwg/topics

    "Hybertson, Duane W." <dhyb...@mitre.org> Aug 17 01:45PM  

    Derek – I think your examples illustrate an important part of the answer to Jack’s question about a recipe for interventions in complex situations: Simple rules, models, and patterns (whether or ...more

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    "Scott" <jacke...@cox.net> Aug 17 07:38AM -0700  

    I am surprised that Lord Kelvin has not been quoted yet. Here is his exact quote from one of his lectures:
     
    "In physical science a first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is ...more

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    profhitchins <profhi...@gmail.com> Aug 17 08:10AM -0700  

    Spot on, Scott.
     
    However, we are not necessarily talking about physical science in the sense
    that Kelvin meant. Instead we might be talking about social organisations,
    socio-technical systems, ...more

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    "Axelband, Elliot" <axel...@rand.org> Aug 17 04:32PM  

    A fascinating collection of thoughts. I would add to this the arbitrariness of English grammar - unsurprising given its origins - and the over 20 dialects spoken today which have not yet diverged so ...more

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    Jack Ring <jri...@gmail.com> Aug 17 10:40AM -0700  

    Derek,
    Every race car driver has integrity, courage, drive, empathy, insight, creativity, belief, etc.
    And we can still discern who wins. Some of them know why. Others just blame the vehicle. ...more

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    profhitchins <profhi...@gmail.com> Aug 17 11:02AM -0700  

    Jack,
     
    Unfortunately, you appear to have overlooked the context, which was
    concerned with numerical scoring of some kind, as Kelvin might supposedly
    have championed.
     
    Every race car driver ...more

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    Hillary Sillitto <hsil...@googlemail.com> Aug 17 10:39PM +0100  

    George
     
    Clearly you have never worked in Government! "Yes Minister" is an
    interesting object lesson in the power and value of ambiguity in the
    English language.
     
    Hillary
    (A Scotsman!)
    ...more

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    "Axelband, Elliot" <axel...@rand.org> Aug 18 01:07AM  

    Wot! Sorry old sot, but less than diamond. I enjoyed the years I spent in Jolly Old and enjoyed the variety and richness of proper English, common English, Cockney, Hackney, the Middlesex, Yorkshire, ...more

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    Jack Ring <jri...@gmail.com> Aug 17 06:54PM -0700  

    Derek,
    You might want to find out how Team Penske, Team Lotus, Team McClaren, etc. select among driver candidates and, in fact, among all pit crew candidates. I understand that quantitative ...more

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    Steve Krane <sk5...@gmail.com> Aug 18 12:28AM -0600  

    Re; It seems to me that we have yet to come to grips with even an approach to solving problems in complex social/socio-techncical systems unless we address subjects such as group psychology and ...more

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    derek hitchins <profhi...@gmail.com> Aug 18 10:21AM +0100  


    > Be an advocate or make something better
     
    That appears to be an admonishment. I am uncertain. Are you indicating that John Warfield's work is replete with social psychology and group ...more

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    "Ken Lloyd" <kal...@wattsys.com> Aug 17 06:44AM -0600  

    Re: “ … it may be possible to diagnose the nature of a complex problem without recourse to mathematics.”
     

     
    I suppose it depends upon your conceptualization of what constitutes mathematics. ...more

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    Jack Ring <jri...@gmail.com> Aug 17 09:52AM -0700  

    Derek,
    Thanks for the observations.
    Just which end of the horse are you claiming to represent? ;-)
     
    Complexity, the nature of the relationship between a system and an observer (Warfield), may be ...more

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    Jack Ring <jri...@gmail.com> Aug 17 10:12AM -0700  

    Ken,
    TKU for this. Looks like we all should learn to apply category theory.
    Jack
    On Aug 17, 2013, at 5:44 AM, Ken Lloyd wrote:
     
    ...more

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    derek hitchins <profhi...@gmail.com> Aug 17 07:13PM +0100  


    > As I posted earlier, I think the SE recipe you listed is an excellent start and can be evolved. Let's focus on evolving your list. My post on stAGES of Complexity was somewhat of a sidelight.
    ...more

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    joseph simpson <jjs...@gmail.com> Aug 17 12:24PM -0700  

    Derek:
     
    Insightful as always...
     
    At this time I will just focus on this statement...
     
    "Mathematicians propose that the Mandelbrot set is the most complex
    mathematical entity, yet it is ...more

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    joseph simpson <jjs...@gmail.com> Aug 17 12:47PM -0700  

    Jack....
     
    Great questions.. some responses below...
     
    "
     
    Complex systems are effectively engaged using shared vision, common
    symbols, common context and
    common value sets…
    ...more

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