GSoC Update

[Aaron Meurer]

So I have some bad news. Google did not accept our application to be a
mentoring organization this year.

We are still in the process of finding out from Google why they did
not accept our application. The most we know now is that they received
"many more applications than they were able to accommodate".

For those of you who were planning to apply, don't fret. We will still
participate under the umbrella of PSF, and possibly others. However,
it is likely that we won't get as many slots as we have in the past,
so you should put extra hard work into your application to make it the
best. I wrote a blog post a few years ago with advice for prospective
students that is still relevant today
https://asmeurersympy.wordpress.com/2011/04/27/advice-for-future-prospective-gsoc-students/.

Aaron Meurer

[Jason Moore]

Note that NumFocus was selected and that we are also part of NumFocus.

Jason
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Aaron Meurer

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[Jason Moore]

We are not a mentor org this year. This question is maybe better stated as: "Can students apply to other organizations to work on SymPy related projects?". Yes, they can, but it is up to us to develop a relationship with those organizations to see if they will provide slots and/or agree to consider SymPy focused projects.

Jason
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On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Mihir Wadwekar <m.mi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can an org participate in under more than one org ? ( NumFocus, PSF )

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sympy/061665c9-5d7f-4fd7-920c-a4d21a9388f1%40googlegroups.com.

[Aaron Meurer]

Yes, in the past, before SymPy was a mentoring organization, we
participated under many umbrella organizations. I will provide an
update on what org(s) you should apply under when the student
application period begins.

Aaron Meurer

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Mihir Wadwekar <m.mi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can an org participate in under more than one org ? ( NumFocus, PSF )
>
> On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 1:18:08 AM UTC+5:30, Jason Moore wrote:
>>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sympy/061665c9-5d7f-4fd7-920c-a4d21a9388f1%40googlegroups.com.

[Ondřej Čertík]

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Aaron Meurer <asme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, in the past, before SymPy was a mentoring organization, we
> participated under many umbrella organizations. I will provide an
> update on what org(s) you should apply under when the student
> application period begins.

We'll do our best and we will update this list with more information
in few days. In the meantime, prepare your applications. I hope things
will work out, in the past we were able to have around 5 students or
so under various umbrella organizations, so we'll see how it goes this
year.

Ondrej

[Luv Agarwal]

Hi, I was just curious to know if it is possible that my application for CAD implementation gets less preference just because of the reason that no mentor knows CAD algorithm for now as said by Aaron in https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/sympy/cylindrical$20algeb/sympy/U6kFRkPP9EE/7uFP6sN3JA4J

[Aaron Meurer]

If anything, this gives it more preference, because GSoC will be the
only way we will get the algorithm implemented.

Anyhow, you shouldn't worry about priority of projects, or who can
mentor things. If we like you and your proposal, we will find someone
to mentor it.

Aaron Meurer

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[Harald Schilly]

On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 8:42:55 PM UTC+1, Aaron Meurer wrote:

So I have some bad news. Google did not accept our application to be a
mentoring organization this year.

Hi, I'm the admin of SageMath's GSoC involvement. We were selected and since SymPy is a component of SageMath, it makes sense that we try to help out if possible. As a first step, I've added a link to your idea list to our ideas list.

http://wiki.sagemath.org/GSoC/2015

-- Harald

[AMiT Kumar]

Great to hear that.

Thanks Harald!

AMiT Kumar

 

-- Harald

[Param Singh]

Thanks Harald. That's really kind of you.

[Jason Moore]

Harald,

We really appreciate that. If you all get interest from students on those projects, please point them our way. We could also discuss which projects are most helpful to Sage and highlight them on your wiki page.

Jason
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[Raniere Silva]

> Note that NumFocus was selected and that we are also part of NumFocus.

I'm in charge of it. Applications from Sympy are very welcome.

[Jason Moore]

Hi Raniere,

Can you clarify what you mean by "applications"?

Other umbrella organizations, for example the PSF, have specific guidelines in participating under their wing for GSoC.

Since SymPy is already under the NumFOCUS umbrella, how does NumFOCUS plan to award slots to their organizations?

We are certainly interested now that we were not selected as a mentoring organization ourselves.

Jason
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On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Raniere Silva <ran...@ime.unicamp.br> wrote:

> Note that NumFocus was selected and that we are also part of NumFocus.

I'm in charge of it. Applications from Sympy are very welcome.

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[Ondřej Čertík]

Hi Raniere,

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Raniere Silva <ran...@ime.unicamp.br> wrote:
>> Note that NumFocus was selected and that we are also part of NumFocus.
>
> I'm in charge of it. Applications from Sympy are very welcome.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

Ondrej

[Ondřej Čertík]

Hi Jason,

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Jason Moore <moore...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Raniere,
>
> Can you clarify what you mean by "applications"?

The way GSoC works is that students send applications and they are
free to send it to any accepted organization.

>
> Other umbrella organizations, for example the PSF, have specific guidelines
> in participating under their wing for GSoC.

Right, every org has some formal or informal guidelines how they will
select students. Typically this is done based on how much they like
them, i.e. they sort them from the best to the worst, and then they
have to find mentors. Then depending on how many slots Google gives
them (i.e. typically Google gives 2 slots to new organizations, but
there can be exceptions), they accept the first N. PSF does it a bit
differently.

>
> Since SymPy is already under the NumFOCUS umbrella, how does NumFOCUS plan
> to award slots to their organizations?
>
> We are certainly interested now that we were not selected as a mentoring
> organization ourselves.

Ondrej

[Jason Moore]

Jason
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On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Ondřej Čertík <ondrej...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jason,

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Jason Moore <moore...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Raniere,
>
> Can you clarify what you mean by "applications"?

The way GSoC works is that students send applications and they are
free to send it to any accepted organization.

I see, but Raniere's statement could mean "applications from SymPy to be umbrellaed by NumFOCUS for GSoC" or it can mean "applications from GSoC students to NumFOCUS for SymPy related projects". For example, the PSF now requires the sub-org to apply to be under their umbrella.

 

>
> Other umbrella organizations, for example the PSF, have specific guidelines
> in participating under their wing for GSoC.

Right, every org has some formal or informal guidelines how they will
select students. Typically this is done based on how much they like
them, i.e. they sort them from the best to the worst, and then they
have to find mentors. Then depending on how many slots Google gives
them (i.e. typically Google gives 2 slots to new organizations, but
there can be exceptions), they accept the first N. PSF does it a bit
differently.

Ok, so I guess then I'm wondering if all sub-orgs under NumFOCUS will have say in selecting the best applications? The PSF, for example, asks each sub-org how many slots they'd like, then they request the full # of slots to Google, and then they distribute the award slots among the sub-orgs proportional to what they requested. That way each org is pretty much guaranteed at least one slot. If NumFOCUS only gets 2 slots and there are more than 2 sub-orgs then it's more difficult.

 

>
> Since SymPy is already under the NumFOCUS umbrella, how does NumFOCUS plan
> to award slots to their organizations?
>
> We are certainly interested now that we were not selected as a mentoring
> organization ourselves.

Ondrej

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[Ondřej Čertík]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Jason Moore <moore...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Jason
> moorepants.info
> +01 530-601-9791
>
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Ondřej Čertík <ondrej...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Jason Moore <moore...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Hi Raniere,
>> >
>> > Can you clarify what you mean by "applications"?
>>
>> The way GSoC works is that students send applications and they are
>> free to send it to any accepted organization.
>
>
> I see, but Raniere's statement could mean "applications from SymPy to be
> umbrellaed by NumFOCUS for GSoC" or it can mean "applications from GSoC
> students to NumFOCUS for SymPy related projects". For example, the PSF now
> requires the sub-org to apply to be under their umbrella.

My understanding is that this is all informal. PSF chose one way to do
it (I think they do a great job btw),
other organizations do it other ways. I am not aware of any official
rules from Google how the org "must" handle this.

>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Other umbrella organizations, for example the PSF, have specific
>> > guidelines
>> > in participating under their wing for GSoC.
>>
>> Right, every org has some formal or informal guidelines how they will
>> select students. Typically this is done based on how much they like
>> them, i.e. they sort them from the best to the worst, and then they
>> have to find mentors. Then depending on how many slots Google gives
>> them (i.e. typically Google gives 2 slots to new organizations, but
>> there can be exceptions), they accept the first N. PSF does it a bit
>> differently.
>
>
> Ok, so I guess then I'm wondering if all sub-orgs under NumFOCUS will have
> say in selecting the best applications? The PSF, for example, asks each

That is totally up to NumFOCUS to decide.

> sub-org how many slots they'd like, then they request the full # of slots to
> Google, and then they distribute the award slots among the sub-orgs
> proportional to what they requested. That way each org is pretty much
> guaranteed at least one slot. If NumFOCUS only gets 2 slots and there are
> more than 2 sub-orgs then it's more difficult.

Indeed. PSF is an established organization, so they get lots of slots
from Google. NumFOCUS maybe will get more than 2, if they can convince
Google that they can handle it. That's up to the NumFOCUS admins. It's
always better to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best.

Ondrej

[Jason Moore]

I understand that there is no Google mandate on how organizations divvy up their slots. I'm just curious how NumFOCUS plans to handle all of this. From my understanding, Raniere is part of Software Carpentry (which is fiscally sponsored by NumFOCUS) and instead of applying to GSoC as Software Carpentry he decided and got permission to apply using the NumFOCUS name. For example, the materials are hosted under the SWC github account, not NumFOCUS's, and the only ideas listed seem to be from Software Carpentry (https://github.com/swcarpentry/gsoc2015). Actually, I'm not sure what the two ecology related projects are and what NumFOCUS sub-org they belong to.

It would be nice to understand how things will work with NumFOCUS before we start sending students in that direction.

That is totally up to NumFOCUS to decide.

But who are the decision makers for GSoC at NumFOCUS? Aren't we part of NumFOCUS just like Rainere and Software Carpentry are? Btw, I understand that Raniere put together the application, did all the work, and ultimately won the game so maybe that means that we have no formal say.

I'll stop beating this dead horse now. Ondrej, you may like the idea of everything being informal at this level, but there are lots of people that are quite invested in GSoC slots and informalities are bound to result with hurt feelings.

Jason
moorepants.info
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Ondrej

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[Matthew Brett]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Jason Moore <moore...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I understand that there is no Google mandate on how organizations divvy up
> their slots. I'm just curious how NumFOCUS plans to handle all of this. From
> my understanding, Raniere is part of Software Carpentry (which is fiscally
> sponsored by NumFOCUS) and instead of applying to GSoC as Software Carpentry
> he decided and got permission to apply using the NumFOCUS name. For example,
> the materials are hosted under the SWC github account, not NumFOCUS's, and
> the only ideas listed seem to be from Software Carpentry
> (https://github.com/swcarpentry/gsoc2015). Actually, I'm not sure what the
> two ecology related projects are and what NumFOCUS sub-org they belong to.
>
> It would be nice to understand how things will work with NumFOCUS before we
> start sending students in that direction.
>
>> That is totally up to NumFOCUS to decide.
>
>
> But who are the decision makers for GSoC at NumFOCUS? Aren't we part of
> NumFOCUS just like Rainere and Software Carpentry are? Btw, I understand
> that Raniere put together the application, did all the work, and ultimately
> won the game so maybe that means that we have no formal say.
>
> I'll stop beating this dead horse now. Ondrej, you may like the idea of
> everything being informal at this level, but there are lots of people that
> are quite invested in GSoC slots and informalities are bound to result with
> hurt feelings.

Yes, I agree, informality in this situation is a recipe for confusion
and mistrust.

Best,

Matthew

[Ondřej Čertík]

Agreed, I don't like informality either. I was just trying to clarify
few things that I knew and point out the responsibility. The rest is
for Raniere to clarify.

Jason, you definitely raise good questions.

Ondrej

[Raniere Silva]

> > Can you clarify what you mean by "applications"?
>

> The way GSoC works is that students send applications and they are
> free to send it to any accepted organization.

By "applications" I mean students applications.

> Since SymPy is already under the NumFOCUS umbrella, how does NumFOCUS plan
> to award slots to their organizations?
>
> We are certainly interested now that we were not selected as a mentoring
> organization ourselves.

I didn't discuss this with anyone yet since most of projects under NumFOCUS
umbrella tried to be mentoring organization by themselves.

I would suggest that every project have one admin
and the admins meet this week to talk about it.

> I understand that there is no Google mandate on how organizations divvy up
> their slots. I'm just curious how NumFOCUS plans to handle all of this.
> From my understanding, Raniere is part of Software Carpentry (which is
> fiscally sponsored by NumFOCUS) and instead of applying to GSoC as Software
> Carpentry he decided and got permission to apply using the NumFOCUS name.

Jason, you are correct.

> For example, the materials are hosted under the SWC github account, not
> NumFOCUS's,

This happens because of time constrains.
I would like to keep it this way for 2015 edition
but next year we will host it under NumFOCUS account
or a better place.

> and the only ideas listed seem to be from Software Carpentry (
> https://github.com/swcarpentry/gsoc2015).

This was because all others projects under NumFOCUS
apply to be a mentoring organization.
I hope that we can change it having many projects from Sympy
and the others projects support by NumFOCUS.

> Actually, I'm not sure what the
> two ecology related projects are and what NumFOCUS sub-org they belong to.

They was proposed by Ethan White, a Software Carpentry member.

> It would be nice to understand how things will work with NumFOCUS before we
> start sending students in that direction.
>

> That is totally up to NumFOCUS to decide.
>

> But who are the decision makers for GSoC at NumFOCUS? Aren't we part of
> NumFOCUS just like Rainere and Software Carpentry are? Btw, I understand
> that Raniere put together the application, did all the work, and ultimately
> won the game so maybe that means that we have no formal say.

As said before,
will be great if I and people in charge of GSoC to SymPy could talk this week.
Thursday 10am EST?

Cheers,
Raniere

[Jason Moore]

Raniere,

Thanks for the update. That all sounds great.

Ondrej and Aaron are the main SymPy admins and I admin for PyDy which handles some sub-packages of SymPy (wrt to GSoC).

I'm happy to meet. I can do Thursday 10 am EST but would prefer an hour or two later. I think Ondrej is in MTZ and Aaron CTZ.

Are there others that should be there? I see you have Spyder listed in you README currently.

Jason
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[Ondřej Čertík]

Thanks for answering Jason's questions. 10am EST works, though I will
only have about half an hour. Do you want to do G+ hangout?

Ondrej

[Raniere Silva]

> Ondrej and Aaron are the main SymPy admins and I admin for PyDy which
> handles some sub-packages of SymPy (wrt to GSoC).
>
> I'm happy to meet. I can do Thursday 10 am EST but would prefer an hour or
> two later. I think Ondrej is in MTZ and Aaron CTZ.

Thursday 12am EST?

> Are there others that should be there?

Yes. Spyder and Astropy.

[Jason Moore]

Do you meant 12 am or 12 pm EST?

Either are fine with me.

Jason
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[Ondřej Čertík]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:28 PM, Raniere Silva <ran...@ime.unicamp.br> wrote:
>> Ondrej and Aaron are the main SymPy admins and I admin for PyDy which
>> handles some sub-packages of SymPy (wrt to GSoC).
>>
>> I'm happy to meet. I can do Thursday 10 am EST but would prefer an hour or
>> two later. I think Ondrej is in MTZ and Aaron CTZ.
>
> Thursday 12am EST?

That I can only do without a video (can't use video at work).

Ondrej

>
>> Are there others that should be there?
>
> Yes. Spyder and Astropy.
>

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[Raniere Silva]

> Do you meant 12 am or 12 pm EST?

12pm EST or midday. Sorry for the confusion.

[Aaron Meurer]

I have a meeting at that time but if Ondrej can attend it will be fine.

Aaron Meurer

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 7:50 PM, Raniere Silva <ran...@ime.unicamp.br> wrote:
>> Do you meant 12 am or 12 pm EST?
>
> 12pm EST or midday. Sorry for the confusion.
>

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[Raniere Silva]

I was talking with Jarrod and want to make one thing clear:

Helping from a member of SymPy community is welcome.
It's possible that we will only get a few
spots this year, but with your extra help would be more likely
that we could grow in the future.

Cheers,
Raniere

[Jason Moore]

Hi Rainere,

From that statement it sounds like you want to be clear that "help from SymPy will likely cause NumFOCUS's GSoC initiatives to grow in the future". But it isn't very clear why it was important to state that. Also, who is Jarrod?

Jason
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[Raniere Silva]

> Also, who is Jarrod?

http://numfocus.org/foundation/board.html