Re: Should this formum be titled Futures or No Futures?
Mark Maslow
"Bruce Armstrong" <NOCANSPAM_br...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:glm046hho0g13dbed...@4ax.com...
> Distruptive change is hard. Some people don't want to adapt. That's
> why when Microsoft originally introduced .Net, so many people,
> including many Microsoft MVPs, lobbied for the continuation of the
> "classic" VB product:
>
> http://www.classicvb.org/
>
> It was a huge gamble for Microsoft, one that worked out well in the
> end.
I seem to remember Sybase folks slamming MS for leaving developers without
an easy migration path, and said that they have a better strategy. The focus
of their marketing seems to be basically that you can get all the benefits
of the new technology without really changing. We'll see how well that works
out.
Experienced .NET developers have already adapted. They have many choices. If
we begin to see a significant number of them choosing to use PB.NET for new
projects, that would demonstrate real success. But how likely do you think
that is?
Bruce Armstrong
Well, there are some significant differences:
1. Sybase continues to support and enhance it's "classic" version. Perhaps not
as many enhancements as some folks would have wanted, but they're demonstrating
a commitment to it. Microsoft basically put VB6 on a shelf and waited for the
expiration date to occur.
2. In PowerBuilder.Net you continue to use the DataWindow and script in
PowerScript. Visual Studio users had to learn new languages in order to move to
Net.
So to some degree the marketing information is correct, but perhaps gives a
overly optimistic impression. You can continue to use your existing skillset.
You will have to add to it though.
I'm not expecting a mass migration from Visual Studio to PowerBuilder.Net.
However, if Sybase experiences a significant increase in new sales and upgrades
of PowerBuilder (not just the upgrades as a result of EOL of previous versions),
then they'll have succeeded. I don't care where the new sales come from, so
long as they come.
On 16 Jul 2010 08:20:53 -0700,
in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Bruce Armstrong
It depends, will we be disccussing the product, or your future career
as a comedian? <g>
Distruptive change is hard. Some people don't want to adapt. That's
why when Microsoft originally introduced .Net, so many people,
including many Microsoft MVPs, lobbied for the continuation of the
"classic" VB product:
It was a huge gamble for Microsoft, one that worked out well in the
end.
http://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2010/07/01/fated-to-succeed.aspx
On 16 Jul 2010 05:27:59 -0700, Richard Chen wrote:
>Should this formum be titled Futures or No Futures?
-----------------------------------
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richardchen
jackdaniels
I'd say possible futures if Sybase gets there act together
sharply but most likely "slowly stagnating into a lingering
death - no future"!
Jack D.
Arnd Schmidt
Spotlight to PB.NET (Codename: Axecution)
- Build in 'SAP Anywhere' Support
- WCF and WYW (What you wanted) support.
- HTML 5 and the upcoming HTML 6
- Device?! Hey, you are developing (click and type) device independent.
There it is:
the b&w Datawindow,
the Colored Datawindow,
the Talking Datawindow (tm),
the Listening Datawindow ( tm available) ,
the IDatawindow, the MeDatawindow, the YouDatawindow
and even the most exciting snot-in-the-blowrag Datawindow.
And the best of all:
3 lines of code - with money back guarantee.
I am sooo happy!
<Jack Daniels> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:4c40529d.79a...@sybase.com...
Bruce Armstrong
in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
Mark Maslow <mark....@sierraclub.org> wrote:
>an easy migration path, and said that they have a better strategy. The focus
>of their marketing seems to be basically that you can get all the benefits
>of the new technology without really changing. We'll see how well that works
>out.
Perhaps my memory is going, but it seems to me that the 'glory days' of
PowerBuilder were back when we experienced disruptive changes with every new
major release. I can remember wondering where I would ever find the time to
learn about the new capabilities I had been given.
http://www.techno-kitten.com/Changes_to_PowerBuilder/changes_to_powerbuilder.htm
l
Now it seems we demand new capabilities, but also demand they come at no cost to
us, that we shouldn't be required to learn anything new. Is it because the
average age of PowerBuilder developers has increased that we've all become so
boring?
Paul Slater
> Should this formum be titled Futures or No Futures?
As we can be pretty certain that there isn't going to be a PowerBuilder
13, and there won't be a PowerBuilder 14 either, that's rather a good
question.
But wait.....
If it does manage to last long enough the next big one wil be
PowerBuilder 15, just like ASE and PowerDesigner.
Because? 13 is unlucky in the Western World and 14 is unlucky in the
Eastern World.
Unless of course they go the IQ way and have 12.5, 12.6 12.6 and a bit,
12.not quite 7 ......
Paul
Dave Fish [Sybase]
skills to developer WPF applications with PowerBuilder .NET. But as
anyone who has attended any of my road show events has heard me say,
to take full advantage of what new technology has to offer you need to
acquire new skills. Our goal is to ease the learning curve and allow
you to continue being productive while you come up to speed with XAML
and the .NET Framework, etc.
I am not going to slam Microsoft or Java but I'm also not going to sit
by while people claim they can be as productive with C# or Java as
they are with PowerBuilder. We have talked with a number of customers
who most definitely haven't been as productive and that is why they
are revisiting PowerBuilder.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
PowerBuilder Blog:
http://blogs.sybase.com/powerbuilder/
On 16 Jul 2010 08:20:53 -0700, "Mark Maslow"
Bruce Armstrong
<brettnspampleaseatweaversoftdotcom> wrote:
>On another subject - or is it related - you mention elsewhere that PB has
>been able to consume .Net assemblies directly since version 11 - I have
>only done this in Win Forms targets - is it possible in normal pb?
If you want to do it without going through a CCW, then you would need
to use a .Net target (e.g., Winform). If you can use a CCW, then any
version of PB will do.
Mark Maslow
n0Spam...@sybase.com says...
>
> I am not going to slam Microsoft or Java but I'm also not going to sit
> by while people claim they can be as productive with C# or Java as
> they are with PowerBuilder. We have talked with a number of customers
> who most definitely haven't been as productive and that is why they
> are revisiting PowerBuilder.
>
into account the availability and ease of integration with pre-built
libraries, components and external systems, the effort required for
ongoing maintenance and enhancement, which generally ends up being a
bigger effort than initial deployment, the ability to quickly and easily
adapt to new UI and back-end technologies, and the availability of
working code samples. When working on Java web apps, I get productivity
boosts from using stuff like Hibernate, RichFaces and Seam along with
all of the Apache Commons stuff. Sure, if I had to create all that stuff
myself, it would take forever to get anything done. But I can just
download it, plug it in and configure it. If I have problems, a few
Google searches generally yield working examples and solutions to common
problems. In very short order, I can add incredible functionality built
on top of many man-years of effort by others much smarter than me. For
me, that's true productivity.
My primary misgivings about PB.NET are around the ability to integrate
seamlessly into the entire .NET environment. It looks to me as if
today's version is more focused on compatibility with legacy PB apps
than with true .NET integration. Perhaps that will change, although if
the timeframes we've seen so far are any indication, we won't be seeing
that change for some time.
If you're right, and PB is truly the most productive environment for
creating and maintaining many types of applications, and the marketing
is decent, then over time we should see a significant number of brand
new projects built using PB. Guess time will tell ...
Mark Maslow
NOCANSPAM_br...@yahoo.com says...
> On 16 Jul 2010 08:20:53 -0700,
> in sybase.public.powerbuilder.futures.discussion
> us, that we shouldn't be required to learn anything new. Is it because the
> average age of PowerBuilder developers has increased that we've all become so
> boring?
>
Brett Weaver
I think there is also a danger in folk minimising the huge amount of new
learning that will be required to be successful developing .Net
applications.
Think of your own situation: You are a frequent typer of documents in
MSWord. I know this because you like the 2007 ribbon which seems unfriendly
to those folk who use Word when they are forced to document or update a user
manual on an occasional basis. Therefore, for your requirements the amount
of new learning associated with .Net is probably different as well.
If PB.Net was 100% reliable (and what product is?) then it would be
possible, as Dave Fish says, to utilise your PB skills and deploy to a .Net
environment. Unfortunately we still get strange errors which require a
debugging approach which takes into account the .Net part of the equation.
Not too dissimilar to Web Forms on classic really. Just because it works in
PB Native does not mean it will work when deployed to .Net.
Summarisation: - I don't think anybody who calls themselves a professional
should resent having to study new stuff to grow their abilities. I do think
that Sybase does need to 'fess up, explain the need and then start driving
some rich education courses out to PB developers. I need to know what I
don't know and what I need to know before I can start constructing my own
syllabus.
On another subject - or is it related - you mention elsewhere that PB has
been able to consume .Net assemblies directly since version 11 - I have
only done this in Win Forms targets - is it possible in normal pb?
"Bruce Armstrong" <NOCANSPAM_br...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4c40815c$1@forums-1-dub...
Bruce Armstrong
Huh? That's actually exactly what the Visual Studio Magazine
editorial I posted indicated, and I'm not sure what that has to do
with what I said.
On 16 Jul 2010 19:28:27 -0700, "Chris Pollach"
<cpol...@travel-net.com> wrote:
>Hi Bruce;
>
> Actually, .NET was in response to getting left in the dust initially by
>Sun's J2EE framework.
>My how times change when Bill Gates puts his mind and MS resources behind
>something! :-)
>
>Regards ... Chris
>President: OSUG / STD Inc.
>Blog: http://chrispollach.pbdjmagazine.com
>SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/stdfndclass
>
>
>
>"Bruce Armstrong" <NOCANSPAM_br...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:glm046hho0g13dbed...@4ax.com...
Paul Horan[Sybase]
pretty clear that you're somewhat above average with regard to skill sets
like these. The vast majority of PB users don't have these tricks up their
sleeve, and they're definitely going to be more productive (i.e., cranking
out working applications that solve business needs with a modern UI
experience) with PB.
--
Paul Horan[Sybase]
http://paulhoran.ulitzer.com
"Mark Maslow" <mark....@sierraclub.org> wrote in message
news:MPG.26aa8b8e6...@forums.sybase.com...
Jim O'Neil
I'm not sure I'd use Microsoft conferences as a barometer though. We
have had the same discussions in my group. When I (age 46) go to a
.NET User Group meeting I'm probably about the average age there. When
I go to a more open-sourcy group (NoSQL, WordPress, Python, BarCamp),
it's painfully clear I am one of the oldest there. So I'm not sure
if the average age of developers in general has increased, but I'd say
the average age of OUR developers has.
If you think about it, the PB community is really just an off-shoot of
Microsoft, and there's a strong 'cultural' alignment. I realize this
is a broad brush, but there's a shying away/distrust of open source, a
desire/expectation to get everything 'in the box', waiting for the
next release for innovations (versus making them happen yourself), the
nobody got fired for buying IBM mentality.
Younger developers in the US are (generally) products of a different
background, with exposure to the vast resources of the Open Source
movement in school and beyond. And they are predominately Web
developers (which makes PB a non-starter.)!
It's not that ONLY younger developers gravitate toward OSS, but I'd
say the newer paradigms Python, Ruby, and some extent Java (though
neither new or OSS), have engendered a different vibe and expectation.
They find things like .NET and PB stifling, because they can't open up
the hood, and don't experience the level of community and interaction
they've come to expect.
Rhetorical question: think for example back to the discontinuation and
open-sourcing of PFC - what was your reaction? fear and uncertainty?
or eager anticipation and empowerment? Did you think Sybase was
doing something 'to' you or 'for' you?
Perhaps we're really just now hitting the first 'computer generation
gap'? Ballmer mentioned the other day that windows mobile 'lost a
whole generation'; however, 10 years ago making folks' phones work
just like their desktop - familiar tools, familiar paradigm - seemed
pretty reasonable. I'd say, in general, the pendulum in both our
cases has swung too far toward the desire to keep your existing
customer base happy versus understanding and embracing the next wave.
On 18 Jul 2010 16:31:15 -0700, "Dave Fish [Sybase]"
<n0Spam...@sybase.com> wrote:
>Not sure if this a demographic thing or what, but it seems the average
>age of ALL developers in North America has increased. I haven't
>researched it so these statements are just based on my observations
>but even at Microsoft conferences the developers are older on average
>than they were in the 1990s.
>
>Perhaps it is because not as many college students are taking up
>programming as a career. When I go to Asia the average age of
>attendees at PowerBuilder events is MUCH younger than it is in North
>America or Europe. (The exception being Japan.)
>
>I've only visited South America once but the attendees at that event
>were also younger.
>
>I also see bigger audiences in Asia. At the PowerBuilder 12 launch
>event in Seoul on July 7th there were over 400 people in attendance.
>In India we often had over 100 attendees in each city during the
>PowerBuilder 11 launch events. We saw good numbers in Moscow, London,
>Germany, and Manila for events this year. I know that there are lots
>of PowerBuilder developers in North America but our events aren't
>nearly as well attended. I'm not sure why.
>
>Regards,
>Dave Fish
>Sybase
>
>PowerBuilder Blog:
>http://blogs.sybase.com/powerbuilder/
>
>On 16 Jul 2010 08:57:16 -0700, "Bruce Armstrong"
Paul Horan[Sybase]
> "Paul Horan[Sybase]" <phoran_remove@remove_sybase.com> wrote in message
> news:4c41b962$1@forums-1-dub...
>> But Mark, you're talking about YOUR ability to do all these things. It's
>> pretty clear that you're somewhat above average with regard to skill sets
>> like these. The vast majority of PB users don't have these tricks up
>> their sleeve, and they're definitely going to be more productive (i.e.,
>> cranking out working applications that solve business needs with a modern
>> UI experience) with PB.
>
> mentioned are widely used. In fact, I'd venture to guess that they are
> used in many more working applications today than PB is. Seems like you
> don't have a very high opinion of "the vast majority of PB users".
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that. But in ANY field,
there's a pyramid of capabilities. The best sit at the top and are few and
far between, while THE VAST MAJORITY are average or below. Pick a field -
it holds true.
>
> Anyway, my point is that you can't talk about the productivity of Java or
> .NET without including the whole ecosystem, including open source and
> commercial packages. That's where you can get huge amounts of
> functionality with surprisingly little effort.
>
"huge amounts of functionality with surprisingly little effort." Sounds a
lot like PowerBuilder to me...
Mark Maslow
> Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that. But in ANY
> field, there's a pyramid of capabilities. The best sit at the top and are
> few and far between, while THE VAST MAJORITY are average or below. Pick a
> field - it holds true.
So you're saying that I may find these package very productive to use, but
the "vast majority" of developers won't? How then, do you explain the
widespread use of those and similar packages?
>>
>> Anyway, my point is that you can't talk about the productivity of Java or
>> .NET without including the whole ecosystem, including open source and
>> commercial packages. That's where you can get huge amounts of
>> functionality with surprisingly little effort.
>>
>
> "huge amounts of functionality with surprisingly little effort." Sounds a
> lot like PowerBuilder to me...
>
Right (sort of my point). But the functionality provided by the packages I
mentioned are not in any way provided by PB. That's OK - I don't expect any
single tool to do everything. But I do expect the tools that I use to allow
me to easily integrate with others that are focused on addressing specific
issues. My concern with PB is about the ease of that integration. It's the
"round peg is a square hole" issue discussed elsewhere in these newsgroups.
Dave Fish [Sybase]
libraries and components (or instead on rolling their own) because
they seem to fail miserably.
One large government agency switched from PowerBuilder to Java and
even with over 150 Java developers couldn't deliver the functionality
that their PowerBuilder application provided. They ended up reverting
to the PowerBuilder application that was supported by 3 developers and
I've been told it worked beautifully. Now people are starting to ask
how a team of 3 developers can deliver what 150+ Java developers
couldn't and are seriously considering using PowerBuilderr for future
development.
There is probably more to the story than what I know, I can only pass
along what the customer has told me. I need to emphasize that these
were not PowerBuilder developers retrained in Java. It seems hard to
believe that out of 150+ Java developers none of them would have known
about or suggested using class libraries, components, etc. to make the
project successful.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
PowerBuilder Blog:
http://blogs.sybase.com/powerbuilder/
On 16 Jul 2010 16:30:58 -0700, Mark Maslow
Mark Maslow
>
> No. I didn't say that at all. I suggest you re-read my comments as
> they're written and stop trying to rephrase them.
I re-read all of your comments, and must now confess that I have no idea
what you were trying to say. Oh well - I guess I'm not so clever after all.
Mark Maslow
news:hi2746t4ganqtg1l5...@4ax.com...
> There is probably more to the story than what I know, I can only pass
> along what the customer has told me. I need to emphasize that these
> were not PowerBuilder developers retrained in Java. It seems hard to
> believe that out of 150+ Java developers none of them would have known
> about or suggested using class libraries, components, etc. to make the
> project successful.
>
Hard to believe, indeed. I suppose all it takes is one highly-placed bozo to
create a spectacular failure. Sounds more to me like an inept and/or corrupt
bureaucracy gone amok than the failure of a particular technology.
Dave Fish [Sybase]
Right now the plan is for a 12.5 in 2011 and 15 in 2012. We'll be
announcing features for both releases at TechWave August 9-11.
Still wondering why many people out there are nervous about
PowerBuilder surviving. The product continues to be profitable and v12
has been well received. We are reviewing functional specs for v12.5
features now and the developers are getting to work on the next
release. While I can't yet delve into all the features for 12.5, I can
say that we are planning some enhancements for PowerBuilder Classic,
particularly in the area of the DataWindow.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
PowerBuilder Blog:
http://blogs.sybase.com/powerbuilder/
Dave Fish [Sybase]
age of ALL developers in North America has increased. I haven't
researched it so these statements are just based on my observations
but even at Microsoft conferences the developers are older on average
than they were in the 1990s.
Perhaps it is because not as many college students are taking up
programming as a career. When I go to Asia the average age of
attendees at PowerBuilder events is MUCH younger than it is in North
America or Europe. (The exception being Japan.)
I've only visited South America once but the attendees at that event
were also younger.
I also see bigger audiences in Asia. At the PowerBuilder 12 launch
event in Seoul on July 7th there were over 400 people in attendance.
In India we often had over 100 attendees in each city during the
PowerBuilder 11 launch events. We saw good numbers in Moscow, London,
Germany, and Manila for events this year. I know that there are lots
of PowerBuilder developers in North America but our events aren't
nearly as well attended. I'm not sure why.
Regards,
Dave Fish
Sybase
PowerBuilder Blog:
http://blogs.sybase.com/powerbuilder/
On 16 Jul 2010 08:57:16 -0700, "Bruce Armstrong"
Brett Weaver
"Dave Fish [Sybase]" <n0Spam...@sybase.com> wrote in message
news:f53746lt7nd7mfilp...@4ax.com...
Mark Maslow
> But Mark, you're talking about YOUR ability to do all these things. It's
> pretty clear that you're somewhat above average with regard to skill sets
> like these. The vast majority of PB users don't have these tricks up
> their sleeve, and they're definitely going to be more productive (i.e.,
> cranking out working applications that solve business needs with a modern
> UI experience) with PB.
Not sure how to respond to that. Obviously, I'm not unique. The packages I
mentioned are widely used. In fact, I'd venture to guess that they are used
in many more working applications today than PB is. Seems like you don't
have a very high opinion of "the vast majority of PB users".
Paul Horan[Sybase]
> "Paul Horan[Sybase]" <phoran_remove@remove_sybase.com> wrote in message
> news:4c43537c@forums-1-dub...
>> Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that. But in ANY
>> field, there's a pyramid of capabilities. The best sit at the top and
>> are few and far between, while THE VAST MAJORITY are average or below.
>> Pick a field - it holds true.
>
> So you're saying that I may find these package very productive to use, but
> the "vast majority" of developers won't? How then, do you explain the
> widespread use of those and similar packages?
>
No. I didn't say that at all. I suggest you re-read my comments as they're
written and stop trying to rephrase them.
>>>
Paul Slater
I broke my own rule about keeping my head down around here, some of the
crossfire is pretty ugly :-))