Establishing our Hackspace as a CLG (i.e. Ltd company)

[Damian Axford]

Hi All

Following our discussions last night about future plans for the hackspace, possible legal structures, etc.  I thought I'd summarise our conclusions (or at least my interpretation of them) and use this thread to start compiling our research, current thinking, etc 

For starters, here's the overview link Jamie shared based on London Hackspace's experiences: http://russ.garrett.co.uk/2009/10/25/starting-a-non-profit-in-the-uk/

Gov.uk description of company types: https://www.gov.uk/business-legal-structures/overview

UK gov overview of limited companies:

Most companies are private companies limited by shares. There are 3 other types.
Private company limited by guarantee - Directors or shareholders financially back the organisation up to a specific amount if things go wrong.
Private unlimited company - Directors or shareholders are liable for all debts if things go wrong.
Public limited company - Companies where shares are traded publicly on a market, like the London Stock Exchange.

We loosely discussed a variety of possible organisational structures (pretty much all of them), summarised as:

• Unincorporated association - what we are today, not a legal entity, cannot enter into contracts, no limited liability for members
•  Sole trader - not applicable
• Limited Companies (specifically the limited by guarantee type, as recommended by London Hackspace) - best fit for our purposes 
• Business partnership - not applicable
• Charity - overly complex/expensive to establish, complex tax/audit requirements and requires perm public benefit (which we're not prepared to offer)

current info on London Hackspace organisation from their website: https://hackspace.org.uk/organisation/

Their articles of association, a dry read, but very important and something we can directly lift and shift as suits: https://hackspace.org.uk/organisation/docs/articles.pdf

Have a read, see what you think...  my current thinking is to lift and shift as much of London Hackspaces hard work as possible.  Specifically, I'll create a first proposal for our articles based on theirs for you to all to read, throw spanners at, etc

D

[Jamie Osborne]

Nice summary Damian, and thanks for looking into the articles.

Hopefully, we can use them mostly unchanged, just checking there's nothing in there that's incompatible (or less than ideal) for our fledgling space.

Regards,

Jamie Osborne

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "swindon-hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to swindon-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[Damian Axford]

Made a good start on drafting our Articles of Association:

https://docs.google.com/a/axford.me.uk/document/d/10WwTBZ2UxY3ARyAHxlaiz7x1MKrlJUf5oGxql2TGJgg

Bit of a pig converting from PDF and correcting formatting, etc ...  will do some more tomorrow.  

D

[Jamie Osborne]

The .tex source is linked below, but ideally we'd want it in (multi)markdown, from which we can render PDF, HTML, etc.  

I think pandoc may be able to convert tex->mmd but mutimarkdown can only *output* as tex.

I'll look into this further tomorrow.  I don't mind sorting the multimarkdown formatting stuff out if you concentrate on the prose. :)

https://github.com/londonhackspace/documentation/tree/master/constitution

Regards,

Jamie Osborne

--

[Jamie Osborne]

Here’s the previously link tex file as multimarkdown source, using ''pandoc -s articles-body.tex -o articles-body.md”.

Jamie

--

[Gyrobot]

Well done Damian thank you.
2a needs formatting (no spaces)

I noticed you changed the minimum number to create a quorum from 10 down to 5, very wise :-)
Steve.

[Damian Axford]

Thanks Jamie - didn't think to look for the source.  Will switch to working from the mmd version.  Can you give me access to the git repository and I'll upload/refine it from there...

Thanks Steve - thought a smaller quorum was wise :)

[Damian Axford]

strike that - didn't realise I already had git access.  Initial commit done.  

Jamie - can you investigate http://www.oneclickorgs.com/, it's the voting system London Hackspace use and I propose we do the same.  It's open source, written in Rails 3 and available from this git repo: http://github.com/oneclickorgs/one-click-orgs

Given it'll need a web server, I'm happy to offer mine - can easily host a sub-domain for the hackspace and give you (whoever) ssh access...  

On a side note... the London Hackspace's annual returns give a good idea of potential costs we would face in running our own place:

https://github.com/londonhackspace/documentation/blob/master/annualreports/2011/incomeexpenditure.tex

Of particular note, insurance is dirt cheap (£108), dwarfed by rent, utilities and bank charges, among others.

D

[Simon Webb]

The Museum itself is set up as a company limited by guarantee.  If you needed any advice or help in setting this up then I am sure that museum chairman Jeremy Holt (solicitor) would be more than happy to assist.

Simon

[Jamie Osborne]

I added you a few weeks back. :)

I've been meaning to create a documentation/media repo to collect together any media we use such as leaflets, graphics, and your legal stuff.  Would it be worth collecting everything into your new repo, rather than having one entirely for legal?  If you're ok with that I'll start using your repo and add some folders such as legal, publicity, media, etc.

oneclickorgs.com

Looks interesting, but perhaps overkill until we grow some more (so low priority right now).  I'm looking into a general solution to manage membership email groups for news, announcements, and follow up etc.; so I'll look to fit this into that for now.

Regards,

Jamie Osborne

[Jamie Osborne]

You're welcome; I looked at this stuff when we first started and had a vague memory of seeing some source in github somewhere (their github doesn't seem to be clearly linked from their website).

You might notice that all the ordered lists are numbered, whereas the PDF is numbered, then lettered, then roman numerals; this is something I can set up in CSS with no bother.  Likewise, the definition lists can either start on a new line or not, your preference.

Regards,

Jamie Osborne

On 1 Nov 2013, at 09:41, Damian Axford <dam...@axford.me.uk> wrote:

Thanks Jamie - didn't think to look for the source.  Will switch to working from the mmd version.  Can you give me access to the git repository and I'll upload/refine it from there...

Thanks Steve - thought a smaller quorum was wise :)

[Damian Axford]

good plan on expanding out the repo - go for it...  will move the articles into a legal folder on next commit

[Lilla Newton]

Hi Hackspacers,

I told already nearly a year ago, that Hackspace should go as Charity (it is not expensive at all. Approximately £150 to establish. It need just a business plan to proof that it functions as charity - two to four weeks to write a business plan- and 3 months to wait for acceptance). 2 directors can earn unlimited salary all other members work on voluntary basis.

Or 

Social enterprise - which means that the profit goes back to the "company" (as non-profit organization) but even so 2 directors can earn unlimited salary and all the workers can get salary too. It is cheaper and quicker than charity registration.

Frankly I would go for social enterprise. It can not go wrong as by law to start up any company (legal organization) you need liability insurance (£150 per year the cheapest). And social enterprise is more fair to its member as any work can be paid. And you still have the choice of ltd, stock or the third type which I forgot its name. Which is just purely about who is liable in concourse (being in debt to other companies which can not be paid from the profit anymore). As non-profit organization (which means there will not be any person who cashes up the profit so it always just ad and ad to the capital of the organization). I would hardly believe that ever will happen a concourse except someone orders an expensive machinery without having most of the capital. I do not see any risk. If Hackspacers are still scared we should go for limited by guarantee then the 2 directors are not responsible (with their private capital) for any crash.

Let me know your decisions. And if you want I am able to give you help on writing business plan or on company set up as having a degree in Management.

Regards,

Lillie Goddard

(previously Lilla Newton)

 

[Jamie Osborne]

Social Enterprise sounds interesting, but it's more for businesses selling goods and services for the benefit of the whole community or a social cause.  Even if you think that describes a Hackspace (and I don't), it imposes some limitations on us while not really offering any benefits other than being able to declare ourselves as a Social Enterprise (which admittedly, could be very useful for funding etc. - if it were true).

Regardless, a Social Enterprise still requires a legal structure, the most applicable for us being CIC and CLG.

Please see the link below that Damian included in his first post for a little more info on why hackspace.org.uk went with CLG.

http://russ.garrett.co.uk/2009/10/25/starting-a-non-profit-in-the-uk/

CLG seems to be the simplest option that provides the structure and protection we require.  It also allows us to convert to a CIC or declare ourselves as a Social Enterprise at a later date.  However, it should be noted that those conversions are one way and therefore, cannot be undone (it's prevented by the legal form of the former, and the latter's own articles and stated mission).

http://www.socialenterprise.org.uk/about/about-social-enterprise#legal

Regards,

Jamie Osborne

[Jess Robinson]

On Sun, 03 Nov 2013 11:53:52 -0000, Jamie Osborne <jme...@gmail.com> wrote:

Social Enterprise sounds interesting, but it's more for businesses selling goods and services for the benefit of the whole community or a social cause.  Even if you think that describes a Hackspace (and I don't), it imposes some limitations on us while not really offering any benefits other than being able to declare ourselves as a Social Enterprise (which admittedly, could be very useful for funding etc. - if it were true).

Regardless, a Social Enterprise still requires a legal structure, the most applicable for us being CIC and CLG.

Please see the link below that Damian included in his first post for a little more info on why hackspace.org.uk went with CLG.

http://russ.garrett.co.uk/2009/10/25/starting-a-non-profit-in-the-uk/

Just wanted to add that I also looked at Social Enterprises versus charities. Charities don't seem a fit at all (minimum "profits" etc). 

Social Enterprises/CICs didn't exist at the time that the london hackspace made their decision, which is why they didn't pick it. I believe they have looked into them since, and if they were choosing again today, would probably choose a CIC, there doesn't seem much reason for them to switch now established though.

See also: http://shepherdscothealinggarden.ning.com/profiles/blogs/charity-or-community-interest

--

Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Damian Axford]

Well spotted Jess (as in, CIC wasn't available to London Hackspace), however, I'm still very much in the CLG camp - don't see CIC as particularly beneficial, and we all seem fairly agreed that a charity is not appropriate.

I propose a quick vote to see if we need to explore/research/discuss any further:

All those in favour of proceeding as a CLG?  (subject to agreement on a set of articles, etc)

[Jess Robinson]

AYE!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "swindon-hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to swindon-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[James Mastros]

Aye.​  Also, I think we'll be there this Wed.

   -=- James Mastros

[Jamie Osborne]

CLG seems to be the only sensible option.

CIC places restrictions upon us without providing any actual benefits.  (The restrictions themselves are the main benefit - if they match with the goal of the enterprise.)

The point of a social enterprise is to declare an intent that's similar in spirit to a charity; the point of a CIC is to regulate that intent, like a charity but far less strict.  The only real benefit from all this is to have greater trust from large benefactors.

Unless we intend to seek large donations then there is no disadvantage from using CLG, which also keeps the option open for other forms at a later date.  Even then, the link Jess provided implies that nobody's preferring to make contributions to a CIC over a straight non-profit anyway.

The link posted earlier mentions the Hackspace foundation considering CIC, but not pursuing it due to the asset lock and requiring a greater commitment to the community as a whole.

Regards,

Jamie Osborne

[Gyrobot]

I think it's best to go for a CLG so that's my vote, however the main hurdle to overcome is who would want the thankless task of putting themselves forward to be the director or secretary of this structure? Being involved in another directorship is not a role I would relish at this time.

I would fully support anyone who is brave enough to volunteer and would help in any way I can though.

Steve,
P.s. Welcome back Jess and James.

[Robert Longbottom]

Here are a couple more links about london hackspaces running costs:

https://london.hackspace.org.uk/cost-of-hacking/
https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Budget

[Robert Longbottom]

And on the basis that the main (only?) driver for starting up a CLG is
to get a dedicated space, here are a couple of links from Bristol
hackspace about finding a new space:

http://bristol.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/hackspace_-_the_next_generation
http://bristol.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/advice_before_moving_a_hackspace

[Gyrobot]

Some great links there Rob, well done.

London clearly has some very high running costs.

I enjoyed reading through the minutes of the Bristol meetings, sounds like they discuss the same things we chat about.

http://bristol.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/future_hackspace_discussion_meeting_2013_02_06
http://bristol.hackspace.org.uk/wiki/doku.php/future_hackspace_etc_discussion_meeting_2013_03_04

Both these Hackspaces have a big city populous behind them and they still have the same issues we have regarding increasing membership, dedicated space concerns, budgets etc.

Steve.

[Robert Longbottom]

Yes, interesting to see that London membership contributions doubled in the last year and they had a 40% (?from memory) increase in membership just before moving to a bigger space.

What I'm getting at really is that it sounds to me like just setting up a CLG will cost most of the money that Swindon hackspace currently has in its coffers.  After that we will have nothing left to go out and do anything with so wont be any closer to having our own dedicated space.  It's been worthwhile looking into this so that we know in the future what we would need to do.

For now it seems to me that we would be better off trying to build the membership and maybe invest in some nice tools - like the 3d printer / router / laser cutter that we've also been talking about.

Cheers,
Rob.

[Jess Robinson]

What costs are there with setting up a CLG? I thought it was just a one-time registration fee with company's house.. and I don't remember that sounding expensive.

Having articles of association to show people / work to is a good idea regardless of creating any legal structure I think. Was there discussion of the reasons for actually starting the CLG? 

Speaking of building membership, does anyone object to me looking into things like stickers, t-shirts, tops etc with the logo on? I also pondered if adding the Wednesday meetings to things like the jackfm events calendar (http://www.jackfmswindon.com/jacktivities/), the wilts events calendar would be sane.. ? Also wondering if we can get 105.5 to do a feature.. etcetc.. Maybe I should apply for marketing manager??

Jess

[Robert Longbottom]

Ah, ok, not as much as I'd thought someone had said.  £15- £40 according to this link:

https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation/register-your-company

I'm assuming there are ongoing costs associated with running a LTD company, though I don't know for sure.  I thought you had to do things like submit yearly accounts, etc.  Doesn't that require an accountant?

Rob.

[Jamie Osborne]

The main reason for discussing a CLG was to establish ourselves was a proper entity that could be taken seriously; should we pursue expansion, funding etc.  This could be done even though there are no immediate plans, except - as Rob points out - if there are ongoing costs then its still worth investigating now, but holding off on spending any money until we need it.

Speaking of building membership, does anyone object to me looking into things like stickers, t-shirts, tops etc with the logo on?

We don’t have money to spend on promotional material that may sit about unpurchased.  The museum has stacks of keyring fobs, calculators, pencils etc. that take years to sell.  Unless we have an actual event, such as a meet up - where were prepared to lose money in order to promote the space - then I don’t think it’s worth it right now.  Of course, you’re welcome to look into pricing and deals etc., I think the best route for this kind of thing is via our own members with 3D printers, vinyl cutters, etc.

 

I also pondered if adding the Wednesday meetings to things like the jackfm events calendar (http://www.jackfmswindon.com/jacktivities/), the wilts events calendar would be sane.. ?

If it’s the norm to put a regular meeting on there, then I guess so?  We do have some actual events coming up that would fit though.

Jamie

[Jess Robinson]

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 14:05:09 -0000, Jamie Osborne <jme...@gmail.com> wrote:

The main reason for discussing a CLG was to establish ourselves was a proper entity that could be taken seriously; should we pursue expansion, funding etc.  This could be done even though there are no immediate plans, except - as Rob points out - if there are ongoing costs then its still worth investigating now, but holding off on spending any money until we need it.

Speaking of building membership, does anyone object to me looking into things like stickers, t-shirts, tops etc with the logo on?

We don’t have money to spend on promotional material that may sit about unpurchased.  The museum has stacks of keyring fobs, calculators, pencils etc. that take years to sell.  Unless we have an actual event, such as a meet up - where were prepared to lose money in order to promote the space - then I don’t think it’s worth it right now.  Of course, you’re welcome to look into pricing and deals etc., I think the best route for this kind of thing is via our own members with 3D printers, vinyl cutters, etc.

Yup, I wasn't thinking of the hackspace funds being spent on them.. more the members.. that is there are places that will do small print runs, so one could order enough per member, and if each member would cough up for 2, we'd have a couple to hand out to people or similar. Out of interest, any idea where the museum gets/got its promotional materials? 

 

I also pondered if adding the Wednesday meetings to things like the jackfm events calendar (http://www.jackfmswindon.com/jacktivities/), the wilts events calendar would be sane.. ?

If it’s the norm to put a regular meeting on there, then I guess so?  We do have some actual events coming up that would fit though.

There seem to be several, in fact the entire N months of the Robots Exhibition has been put in by someone. Was mostly wondering if anyone can think of a reason not to do so.. they can only say "no" which doesn't lose us anything. 

Actual events? I did ponder, a while back (and failed to actually talk about), a predefined date for meeting/talking about hackspace promotional/expansional plans.. What have we missed?

Jess

[Gyrobot]

 

Speaking of building membership, does anyone object to me looking into things like stickers, t-shirts, tops etc with the logo on? I also pondered if adding the Wednesday meetings to things like the jackfm events calendar (http://www.jackfmswindon.com/jacktivities/), the wilts events calendar would be sane.. ? Also wondering if we can get 105.5 to do a feature.. etcetc.. Maybe I should apply for marketing manager??

There is also Talk Swindon which seems to be a very active forum about all things Swindon related, and more specifically their "What's on" page.

http://www.talkswindon.org/
http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php/board,9.0.html

 

[Damian Axford]

Right... had a productive hour or so gathering some thoughts and have added two key documents to the drive:

Proposed P&L

https://docs.google.com/a/axford.me.uk/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApQvTHsRafGhdFJGSW8tSFJibkk1WW9mdHZsUjRCMnc&usp=sharing

Other societies to contact:

https://docs.google.com/a/axford.me.uk/document/d/1IG8l6pqV968QLMcvBKLOmXcnOo5WsI7K3KTCL7MzbAo/edit?usp=sharing

In reverse order... the other societies to contact list is any group I can find that would be a good complement to the hackspace in terms of their interests or likely desires - it includes various models societies, the astronomy society and the sewing group :)  I think we should prepare a pitch and then make contact with each to gauge interest in using our space.

The P&L outlines one potential scenario, combining a membership structure/tariff, multiple societies and likely expenses based on initial quotes.  Key points/assumptions used in the model:

• Platinum members - these members are the hard-core ones, they have the 24x7 access, decent storage space, probably run a lot of stuff that goes on, plough money/tools into the space, etc.  They commit a year at a time, but pay monthly (£40 month).  Given the responsibility and cost, there are unlikely to be a huge number of these members - I've gone for 5 for starters.  They have access to the fancy toys once trained, and act as trainers/supervisors to newbies.
• Gold members - these are the majority.  They have access on society nights (e.g. Wed night for hackspace), or can pay for ad-hoc access when accompanied by a Platinum member (i.e. £4 per day).  They commit a year at a time, but pay monthly (£15 month).  The cost is quite a bit less than platinum (as it should be), but cheaper than if you pay as you go (see Silver).  They get a small locker for permanent storage and use of the fancy toys once trained.
• Silver members - pay as you goers.  they pay a one off annual membership (£20), then ad-hoc if/when they go to a society night (£4 per night).  They get no perm storage and are not eligible to use the fancy machines, they can obviously submit jobs to be run by a gold/platinum member (at their discretion) at cost (time/wear/materials)
• Other societies - Other societies use the same tariff structure, but are only eligible to have gold or silver status.  If members of those societies want platinum, then they become a hackspace platinum member with all the responsibility that brings.  Other societies need at least one Gold member to "lead" the society, be responsible for their activities, enrollment of new members, etc.   They get an allocated time slot on a regular basis (e.g. a night of the week).  I've modeled a few of these into the P&L to illustrate the idea.  I think we could attract a lot of these!

Security

We discussed this briefly the other night, but I think for the structure above it's essential we have something secure/flexible.  I think Vincent's suggestion of RFID is a perfect match and propose the following:

• Platinum member cards give 24x7 access
• Gold member cards give access during the allotted society times (e.g. Wed evenings)
• Silver member cards don't give any physical access, but can be used to track their attendance/prove membership.
• Fancy machines are secured by a further RFID-controlled door... e.g. behind an inner partition.  Only trained member badges give access to this space.

[Robert Longbottom]

A good start to list the things we'd be paying and some of the costs.

A random internet search for limited company accountancy charges finds:
Limited Company Accounts -  Start from £399 http://www.easytax.co.uk/limited_Company/Company_accounts.htm  So maybe £50 is a bit low.

I think maybe you are being a bit optimistic about what some of the other societies may be willing to pay (but could be wrong).  I used to go to the astronomy club and they charge £18 a year all in (http://www.swindonstargazers.com/join/join.htm), no monthly meeting fee, but they were managing to fill a room 20-30 people(?) a few years ago.  They also don't meet all year year round and have a few months off over the summer due to the "poor" conditions.  (too light, people on summer holidays, etc).  Also I think they've just moved locations from Lawn to Liddington so maybe be already commited for next year depending on what deal they've done / why they've moved.

The other society we mentioned is the model flying club at wroughton (http://www.smac2000.org.uk/members.php), their yearly membership is £80-£112 and as far as I can tell they have some kind of clubhouse on the airfield so I assume most of the money goes on that (and you want that on the airfield where you fly for obvious reasons).  I doubt they have a regular meet, but more turn up when the weather is flyable, though I can't work out when that is from their website!  So they might not be so interested in a different meeting location.  Though maybe you could recruit some of their memebers into joining the hackspace with the promise of tools and equipment.

As for us poor souls who work 9-5, five days a week the 24/7 access maybe isn't that appealing, but only wed night might not be enough, so how about an option for wed night + weekends?  But then again, too many levels of membership gets complicated too.

On the hackspace members, I'd be interested to know how many people have currently paid their £10, I thought Jamie said about 10 on wed night and on your  budget you have 30 people down paying £20 - thats an assumed 6x increase in revenue than what we are taking now.  Given the people who have actually paid their £10 are probably the "regulars" anyway they would more likely go for Gold (since thats cheaper that silver if you come nearly every week) or Platinum.  Which essentially makes your silver member income closer to zero.

Just my random thoughts on the matter,
Rob.

[Steve Netting]

You could try Swindon and District Amateur Radio Club too. They currently rent a room in Pinehurst community centre. They're obviously a great fit - but they'd need to be able to erect an external antenna.

[Damian Axford]

Rob - good points, accountancy wasn't based on any research, although there's always the option to do our own accounts (they're not that hard).  Good idea on extending the Gold out to other times - I like the idea of making the weekend a free-for-all, or perhaps subject to booking.  The optimistic membership levels was based on having a more attractive space (as in a perm one with more tools), and perhaps the £20 was too ambitious, but it would be one of the few clubs that actually offers its members something (as in access to facilities they prob. don't have at home).  

Steve - good one, will add them to the list and if we pick the right building, an antenna on the roof should be doable.

[Robert Longbottom]

Yes, an increase from �10/y to �20/y for basic membership isn't
expensive if the Hackspace has access plenty of tools, machines, etc.
It was more the 30 people who were / would be paying this I was
wondering about :-)

I guess something else to think about is what if someone pays �4 to get
in on a wed night but doesn't get to use the machine / tool they want
because another member got in first. Are you going to have arguments?
Or do you just say fine, upgrade to platinum :-)

Rob.

[Gyrobot]

I agree with Rob regarding weekend access only option, so I proposed :

Platinum - as is 24/7
Gold - as current gold but with weekend access
Silver - as current gold
Bronze - as current silver

Great work Damien much appreciated.

[Damian Axford]

Steve - like it, have amended sheet to match and put the price up for golds (seemed fair if they get weekends)

Rob - good point, have dropped the number of now bronzes

I'm not convinced the society model stacks up... I wonder if it's simpler/more plausible to just offer out the space at an hourly rate to other societies?  but then that does somewhat breakdown the membership structure.... unless societies on an hourly rate don't actually get access to the fancy tools - for that, they have to become proper hackspace members.

thoughts?

[Damian Axford]

ok...  so have added another tab to the spreadsheet with a much simpler model for societies, on reflection I prefer it:

Put simply, Silver+ members can book the space to host events/meetings at an hourly rate (£8/hr).  Attendees do not need to pay anything directly to the hackspace.  The member placing the booking pays the fee and is responsible for what happens.  They are the only one allowed to use the fancy tools (covered by normal hackspace member rules), but they can of course run jobs on behalf of their group.  They can also use their storage space for their group if they wish.  Any breakages, accidents, etc are their problem.

It also means we can be cost competitive vs other venues (community halls, etc), yet offer a few more features (internet access, projector) and of course the proper member can give indirect access to cool tools.  

If additional storage is required, we could have a monthly charge for a larger space (e.g. a big cupboard) - again, available to members only to use as they wish.

[Jamie Osborne]

Just counted up 20 members that have paid the £10 for this year. That's probably half of those who have ever visited.

Another 7 are due to pay on third next visit.

Regards,

Jamie Osborne

[Damian Axford]

Hi All

Dusting off this thread, as following some recent meetings, we have a renewed interest/drive to formalise as a ltd company, and get serious about moving space

to consolidate the various discussions, I've started a "living" proposal on our Google Drive:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f-8Gcf9GeOlDFuZALvn_WvMiLFPNXeI4MFgi17yyyNc/edit?usp=sharing

and also updated the membership model in the doc/P&L with a significantly simpler approach - spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-0yjT1F0wGqeD_ZaAvAc8HuC2Rb87-420bKNehM8Ou8/edit?usp=sharing

Several active conversations are occurring within our telegram group, a bit on twitter, and some in person....   the desire is to balance making progress with staying collaborative, so I'll continue to update the drive docs with latest thoughts ready to share at a broader real-life session in the near future (i.e. coffee-shop).  

Also don't want to swamp Wed nights with these discussions (trying to leave those for real hacking :) ), so will setup sep meetings for "future of the hackspace" stuff

Thoughts, feedback, suggestions welcome as ever

thanks

D

[Damian Axford]

One of the by products of the telegram conversations was a recap on potentially changing our name to Swindon MakerSpace, on the basis:

• Hackers know what a MakerSpace is, the public don't know what a Hackspace is

• Hacking has potential negative connotations that need to be explained away, which is a potential barrier to PR and therefore membership

Of course, if we were to change our name, it raises a bunch of questions:

• Should we retain the Hackspace identity, domains, etc?

• If not, how to transition?

• For the new name, what domain should we register?  what TLD? -  org.uk seems appropriate

• swindonmakerspace.org.uk?

• We’d need an updated Logo - telegram consensus is to adapt the current, replacing the H with a similar stylised M  - see below

Out of the logo change discussions, Steve has put together the following - retaining the current logo aesthetic as much as possible:

cheers

D

[Gyrobot]

Good work as ever.

One thought : 

The "on the door charge" = £4
The regular member monthly charge = £25 + £25 per annum

If I only come once a week for a social natter, knitting club style, then it's best to pay the "on the door" charge @ £16 or £20 in the event of a 5 week month.

Am I missing something, exclusive member benefits? i.e. 24/7 access and use of regulated equipment? probably not relevant to the knitting club.

[Damian Axford]

regular  = £25/month (no annual fee)

but yes, the exclusive benefits are currently:

• 24x7 access
  
• use of regulated equipment (without supervision)
• insert more here - e.g. organised discounts with notable vendors, e.g. Maplin

there is a rational for upping the door charge to £5, especially as that's likely to happen anyway even if we stay at the museum

[Damian Axford]

Also to be dusted off and re-read, our draft Articles of Association (drafted late 2013), to support a CLG structure:

https://github.com/snhack/documentation/blob/master/legal/articles.md

We did a pretty good job with these at the time, but on reflection, I think we should discuss clauses:

• 7 - Classes of Membership
• The restrictions to amendments are fairly severe, and rightly so, but this puts emphasis on getting our initial membership structure robust to avoid undue rework
• We may want to consider adjusting the restrictions a little
• 13 - 2:
• Quorum of 5 - this is very low compared to other hackspaces... we should probably reword this to reflect a % of the membership base.  Needs a bit of research, but I'd suggest 50% to get the debate going.  Note, clause 14-3 is a back-stop for poor attendance at meetings.
• 18 - 2 - Form of proxy notices - we could make it explicit that electronic means are acceptable
• 35 - 2 - 2 - consider relaxing emphasis on email
• 35 - 2- 8 - similar relaxation on email
• 35 -4 - relax requirement for One Click Orgs
• 38 - 3 - consider relaxing the threshold... or removing the clause.  Otherwise it may entail every hackspace meeting being minuted!

[Robert Longbottom]

Good work pulling that into a document so its all in one place, we now have an easy to find record of progress and discussions so far.

On the rename, it seems a shame to loose the identity and following we've built as Swindon Hackspace, so that needs to be balanced against any advantages a rename may bring.

On the membership model (as discussed on the wierd little google sheets chat thing!) it just needs to be clear that the clubs and member growth numbers for income represent what would be needed to break even.  And that there isn't necessarily any evidence that this growth will happen as stated, it might (hopefully), but then again it might not.  No real concrete evidence either way. (How many new, regularly attending members have we had in the last year for example?).

And I know someone will say we've not done any promotion, but we do some on twitter, and with people we speak to, but again there's no real evidence that more promotion will bring in more people.  You'd _hope_ it would.  And I think that probably goes back to trying to implement Mals idea of testing the water somehow.

You should also consider the case that a year from now it's still only the core people we have now and you've potentially "lost" money.  How easy is it to undo undo undo(!) and get back to where we are now (assuming kind benefactors wouldnt continue to provide financial backup indefinitely). Or in this case does the Hackspace just fold?

And on that cheery note,
Rob.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "swindon-hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to swindon-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Gyrobot]

The numbering system seems messed up in the document, with many clauses having 2 off "i" (first sub-clause).

Had a quick look at the markdown, not sure why this happened so I'll leave it well alone in fear of messing it up further. #Hand this over to an "expert".

Steve.

[Damian Axford]

yeah - not sure why that is, the source file seems to be ok...  

Jamie - any ideas?

[Damian Axford]

to update those not on telegram...  we took a vote this afternoon to determine our preferred legal structure, and settled on CIC CLG  (unanimous between the "6")

Next step is to align our draft articles with the model CIC CLG articles...  

[Damian Axford]

have read through the model articles properly, they are very good - in my non-professional opinion :) and cover a lot of the edge cases that the london hackspace articles spelt out - critically, they allow for all the fiddly stuff to be done outside of the articles, which has the benefit of needing almost zero amendments.

here's the draft:https://github.com/snhack/documentation/raw/master/legal/Swindon%20MakerSpace%20Articles%20of%20Association%20v0.1.0.doc

all I've done is put our name in (using MakerSpace for now, we can take a vote on that soon) and a draft Objects

there are four points that I think are worthy of a review/discussion: 

• Review 3.5 - Nominate a potential recipient for the asset lock - another hackspace?? Madlab?
  
• Review 5. - the Objects
  
• Review 16.2 - size of director quorum / minimum number of directors
  
• Review 34.2 - size of quorum for general meetings
  

I'm fine with 16.2 and 34.2 as is,  3.5 and 5 are ripe for discussion

cheers

D

[Damian Axford]

a further telegram vote settled on Swindon MakerSpace as the legal entity...  it wasn't a landslide by any means, but we couldn't come up with anything we all liked better

the simpler C.I.C. suffix is also the general preference, as opposed to the full Community Interest Company

thus - we have settled on our new legal name:

Swindon MakerSpace C.I.C.

Let us rejoice and be merry! :)

...  also, a quick companies house and trademark check confirms it's a valid name, and does not conflict with any registered companies/trademarks - phew

[Damian Axford]

and a minor correction to drop the intercapping:

Swindon Makerspace C.I.C. 

:)

Also - Telegram discussion has not raised any objections to clauses 16.2 and 34.2...  at least not yet

[Damian Axford]

Major progress to report as of last night, we (James, Jess, Jamie and myself) completed the full set of documents to submit to companies house...  

Final copies are on github: https://github.com/snhack/documentation/tree/master/legal

but we didn't have a chance to capture the signature sheets (it got very late).  Suffice to say, we are incorporating today (or at least putting the 1/2 inch of paperwork in the post), with 3 initial directors:

• James
• Jess
• Jamie

All the "Js"...  Directors are then elected on a rolling, annual basis as per the articles.  The rest of us are just straight members.  Bank account, membership rules/register, and all the other administrative stuff will follow once the incorporation is confirmed - hopefully <2wks.  The over-arching plan for all this is on the Google Drive, feel free to dip in, comment, raise questions, etc.

If you're interested in the incorporation stuff...  I'd recommend starting with the finished CIC36 form:

https://github.com/snhack/documentation/blob/master/legal/Swindon%20Makerspace%20CIC36%20v1.pdf

It sets out our community interest application, and summarises the intended activities/benefits of the group.

thanks

D

[Robert Longbottom]

Cool. Thanks for the update.

[Damian Axford]

In a somewhat belated post - the new Swindon Makerspace CIC is official !! :)

Company no: 09893201

Company house info:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09893201

Bank acc and other payment handling setup to follow, hopefully before xmas... then it's onto the hunt for premises

[Damian Axford]

More progress for the New Year.... J3 (new moniker for James, Jess & Jamie) have finalised a bank account, Paypal and GoCardless setup :)

We've also initiated two parallel activities to collate member pledges of:

1) Money

If you're able/willing to donate some money to help bootstrap a new Makerspace venue (i.e. exclusively ours with 24x7 access), please could you email a "blind-ish" pledge to Jess - who will collate ready for a big reveal once we have secured a space.  Please use email:  snmake AT jandj DOT me DOT uk

2) Kit

If you'd like to donate, or relocate, any decent kit to the new makerspace venue (once we have one), please add to the list on our wiki:

https://github.com/snhack/snhack.github.io/wiki/Equipment

Debate here or jump onto the Telegram group if you'd like to discuss this or anything else: https://telegram.me/joinchat/A5XbrgE7ib7FNS-23KQKEQ

[Damian Axford]

Hi All

We've having a "next steps" session tonight to share the investigation into new locations for the space, and discuss pros/cons associated.

Session is due to start at 9pm (at the museum), slides on drive if you'd like to read in advance:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1CI2jzPdW71tRw5nVJKiwOud-qGJm66y1OOh89SRBskc/edit?usp=sharing

thanks

D

[Steve Netting]

If there's space for radio gear I think we can attract some SDARC members.  Two have already expressed interest in having an environment where they can a) learn $skills with like-minded folks and b) have access to specialist RF test gear.  They've also said they see value in having 24x7 access to lathes/welders/drills etc.

Would it be worth inviting a couple along tonight to help gauge interest?  

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "swindon-hackspace" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to swindon-hacksp...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

http://www.track3.org.uk
http://www.coherer.net

[Damian Axford]

Hi Steve

Great, and the intent is def to get a space that supports radio gear....   if they can come, tonight would be a good forum to gather feedback

thanks

D

[Damian Axford]

Headline

So, after a very productive meeting last night, we reviewed the options for what to do with the space and ultimately reached consensus on Option 3:

Move to an industrial unit - for April !!!!

Slides here:

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1CI2jzPdW71tRw5nVJKiwOud-qGJm66y1OOh89SRBskc/edit?usp=sharing

Next Steps (in parallel)

• Confirm a few key points with BSS House and finalise lease arrangements - intent is to get keys for 1st April
• Get formal quotes for all services (insurances, broadband, etc)
• Organise PR campaign - press release, website update, contact various societies, radio, newspapers, etc
• Line up furniture supply with Scrapstore
• Big push for pledges/donations ready for collection end March
• Submit grant applications (e.g. Swindon Soup)

Detailed task list will appear on google drive shortly - I'll keep overall tabs, but would appreciate volunteers against the actions above.  Particularly for contacting societies/media.

Summary

After a very enjoyable 3 years 8 months at the Museum, we're taking that next big step and getting our own space - roll on April :)

Cheers

D