Tuesday meeting - actual discussions/plans

[Jess Robinson]

Hi all,

At the end of last Wednesday's hacking a few of us discussed getting
together on a different night with an idea of discussing hackspace related
plans. Enough people said "yes why not", so assuming they haven't
forgotten and are still willing, this Tuesday, October 14th, 7pm, at the
Glue Pot? http://www.hopback.co.uk/our-pubs/the-gluepot.html. It has nice
booths and wasn't too busy/loud last I was in there a month or so ago.
(sadly no tea though..)

I'd like to cover:

* PR stunt plans / assignments / costs etc

* make shift do - I'd like to do this, not many folks have commented on it
(Nov 23rd)

* "board" positions - we're a bit too good at stepping back to either let
other people decide things, or because we don't want to (no idea which ;)
if we appointed people to positions I think it would be easier to get
things done. Can be very simple, for instance 3 members, no fixed
assignments or rotating assignments.

Jess

[Jamie Osborne]

I'll be there, mainly want to discuss our PR/group project ideas, finalise some planned events and associated equipment purchases.

Jamie

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[Damian Axford]

I'd like to be there, and fully intend to be, subject to

a) may be late (8-ish)

b) baby might get in the way... by being born early

Mostly I'd like to talk about PR stuff, but happy to discuss the other stuff as well

[Jamie Osborne]

No worries, if you're running late we can hold off on that stuff. :)

Jamie

[Robert Longbottom]

I'll be there too.

In terms of spending hackspace funds, I think a reasonable / fair approach (which I've suggested before though maybe only to a few people) would be along the lines of

- A post to the group with
     1. a firm list of items, including links of where to get it and costs (inc total spend)
     2. a short project description / reason / justification for the spend

- The post should be given a week (maybe two) for people to respond / comment / find cheaper links / offer up something they have lying around at home / object / suggest a better alternative

- If at the end of the time there are no objections or the vast majority are in agreement then go ahead and get it.

We'd have to work out how we "go ahead and get it", whether that means there is one person who buys stuff and gets the money back from the hackspace via Simon, or whether the person who propses the spend buys it and gets the money back (either direcly via Simon or via someone else) I'm not sure.  I'd imagine it would be better if only one or two people were involved in dealing with hackspace funds or it could get tricky to keep track of what we have.

Rob.

[Jamie Osborne]

You mentioned that to me at least, and that is the way I'd planned to do it.

Unfortunately, it does make the process a little long winded and as such, deters anyone from doing it (myself included).

i.e. If you need to go through all the hassle of researching prices and posting a write up - only to have to wait a week to see if anyone wants to disagree with what and where you chose to get x, y, and z, then once all that is done, maybe not even reach a consensus to buy anything..

Well, I'm not saying the process is wrong, just that there's other things to get done and mainly, if the process is going to take a week or two before any agreement, then I tend not to be in a rush to start that process (and so it doesn't get done).

Jamie

[Robert Longbottom]

Yes, I see your point (and I'm also guilty of not doing anything about PCB etching), but as far as I see it people have a right to comment on how their money is to be spent and one person can't make that decision.

I assume you are referring to the Shirmping kit by the way.

I'm not at all suggesting that the first we hear of something be a detailed fully costed post to the group.  In fact I'd rather it were done the way you have done (hopefully still are doing) the shrimping stuff where it is talked about on Wednesday nights or on here, people in general agree it is a good idea and so is worth pursuing.

Then you'd find out what you want to buy, put together a list (which you are going to need anyway) and post it to the group with a short description, something along the lines of

"as discussed, we'd like to spend some hackspace funds on a couple of shrimping it kits to investigate building them with a view to running a workshop where people can come in, buy a kit and we'll help them build it.  This could bring in a bit of money to the hackspace if we sell kits for a small profit and would promote interest in the hackspace."

"After experimenting with the trial kits, we'll put out some feelers to gauge how many would be interested in doing this in a workshop and do another order with quantity based on interest".

"Here's a link to the shrimping site, here's the initial bits we'd buy, it'll cost £x, if anyone already has some bits at home they'd like to donate, speak up, if anyone objects or disagrees, speak up, otherwise the order will be placed one week from now"

I'd like to think that if things are done this way then the post to the group is merely a formality to include anyone who may have missed the Wednesday discussion(s), there will be zero objections and it can go ahead.

I suspect that most people will look at the prices and sources and go, meh, that looks okay, I'm happy with that, I trust that Jamie (or whoever) will have looked round for a decent price.  If someone comes back with a vague "oh I'm sure you can get it cheaper elsewhere" at the last minute, but no links then my view is that they had their chance and missed it so they can't really complain.  Of course if someone does come back and say "oh I can those for half that price because my mate Dave works for xyz and blah blah" then that's great for the hackspace and the project.

Rob.

[Jamie Osborne]

Yeah, I guess that's the only way to do it to include people not going to the Hackspace (!?! :-/ ).

I started a slack channel for shopping in an effort to streamline something like this, and also for regular members to add items as we run out etc. - let me know if you don't see it.

Jamie

[Robert Longbottom]

Touche, but fair point. I guess I was thinking of people who missed a week or dont come every week or who were doing their own thing when something was decided like this closed invite only slack thing that I seem to have totally missed :-). Not the list lurkers who choose not to attend / participate for whatever reason.

If you have a different workable solution on how to get some kind of common agreement on spending of hackspace funds then I'm happy to hear it, but right now I don't hear you or anyone else suggesting anything and it must be over a year since we actually spent anything.

Maybe a vote on a random Wednesday night where at least n members agree money should be spent?

Rob.

[Robert Longbottom]

PS @listlurkers come along to hackspace and join in! we're actually quite harmless and always interested in meeting new members and seeing what projects they are working on as well as telling you about what we are up to :-)

Rob.

[Gyrobot]

I'll be along to chat, listen and drink beer ;-)

[Robert Longbottom]

Its not really that I don't want to sign up, its more that I don't see how having a closed, invite only discussion group helps the hackspace, which is supposed to be about openness, sharing and collaboration.  Shouldn't we be publicly doing projects and things in a way that people can see what we are doing, feel involved and hopefully contribute?

Maybe I'm missing the point of what slack is?

On 13/10/2014 18:00, Jamie Osborne wrote:

To avoid accepting the invite? (You can say if you don't want to join it ;)

Don't think so, will look into it later but prob not much point.

P.S. Send me a fake email from spamgourmet.com or inboxen.org (webmail, easiest and don't need existing email) and I'll use that to invite with.

Jamie

On 13 Oct 2014, at 17:50, Robert Longbottom <Robe...@iname.com> wrote:

Is there a url you can just email me to the discussion on there?

On 13/10/2014 17:49, Jamie Osborne wrote:

Hi Rob,

I did resend the slack invite Damian sent last week; is it in your junk folder?

Jamie

On 13 Oct 2014, at 00:45, Robert Longbottom <Robe...@iname.com> wrote:

PS @listlurkers come along to hackspace and join in! we're actually quite harmless and always interested in meeting new members and seeing what projects they are working on as well as telling you about what we are up to :-)

Rob.

On 13 October 2014 00:34:23 Robert Longbottom <Robe...@iname.com> wrote:

Touche, but fair point. I guess I was thinking of people who missed a week or dont come every week or who were doing their own thing when something was decided like this closed invite only slack thing that I seem to have totally missed :-). Not the list lurkers who choose not to attend / participate for whatever reason.

If you have a different workable solution on how to get some kind of common agreement on spending of hackspace funds then I'm happy to hear it, but right now I don't hear you or anyone else suggesting anything and it must be over a year since we actually spent anything.

Maybe a vote on a random Wednesday night where at least n members agree money should be spent?

Rob.

On 12 October 2014 23:59:08 Jamie Osborne <jme...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, I guess that's the only way to do it to include people not going to the Hackspace (!?! :-/ ).

I started a slack channel for shopping in an effort to streamline something like this, and also for regular members to add items as we run out etc. - let me know if you don't see it.

[Damian Axford]

tis a fair point... let's debate tomorrow night :)

...

[Jamie Osborne]

The point - to me - is two fold. The first is to have a more instant messaging space as a side channel for stuff that most people just aren't interested in (such as organisational issues, or the email I'm writing now). The second is to have individual topic groups to collect together information pertaining to separate events and other endeavours - without all the ephemeral discussion, that while important in getting to a decision, won't matter once decided (these discussions may well start out here, or in the "general" slack channels).

The point isn't to be "closed", "private", or "invite only" - the way I see this working is like the github org group, or the museum's volunteer group. Slack just happens to use invites as the mechanism for someone to join that group - if there is a way to change this, or a similar service that works in a better way, we can try that.

This one was suggested to Damian at oggcamp, and I think it's one I'd heard of being used to organise past oggcamps or similar, to arrange the talks and deal with other organisational issues. I'd be happy with a few different options, but this one - while not perfect - happens to be cross platform and have a web app. Another one that may work (and I think I mentioned to you and Steve a while back) is glassboard.com - also cross platform with a web app.

Jamie

[Jamie Osborne]

Just checked and glassboard also uses invites, but is limited to only 3 boards - not so bad, but the web app is really basic. The one thing is does have is the ability to use an invite code. So something like slack with invite codes - or a link would be better - much as Google docs works.  Would be ideal if it existed?

While mentioning Google Drive, the shared folder also works this way - and is actually something I hoped to integrate using Slack to (optionally) make that easier to use and tie into project discussions. The Google integration in slack isn't quite what I hoped for, though they do have others (much like IFTTT) that I haven't tested yet, such as github etc.

Jamie

[Robert Longbottom]

My issue is with the fact it's not public - i.e its closed.  So if someone from another hackspace wants to see how events are organised, or purchasing is done at Swindon Hackspace, they can't, unless they know we use slack and know who to contact for an invite.  They can't just have a look around and find stuff out.  And if there is some useful info about a project stored in there it wont be found by Google and so wont come up in any search results.

Wouldn't a more open solution be to use the wiki for information about events and other endeavours and for consolidating information from discussions in the google groups?

Rob.

[jmeosbn .]

I was just hoping for a place to collect together all the boring "non-hacking" stuff in a way that would promote involvement by others in such organisational stuff, and avoid a lot of back and forth about such minutia.

Project stuff - actual hacking related stuff, that most people are interested in - would stay on the group, a note that we're getting low on heat shrink, probably not. It'd be ideal if people didn't get put out of subscribing to this group because of all the non-hacking related stuff going on.

Additionally, I could - and do - keep my own notes on things. But this allows for a place for multiple people to collect together snippets of info or other bits and bobs, that isn't a document, but can be used to create one at a later date. I know we can do that here, but it quickly becomes a mess - and it isn't that such information should be kept private, it's that it may not be captured in the first place.

You're right that once we have something worth putting up on the wiki or in a blog post, then we should do so - but there's a half step in-between, while things are actually getting done that something like slack can be useful for.  And it's the actual getting done that's the problem - it's all very well being open, but the stuff I'm hoping slack or similar will be used for, is the stuff that isn't currently getting done.

Jamie Osborne

[Robert Longbottom]

Ah right, the first I heard of anything going into slack was when you me and Damian were discussing those WiFi boards on Twitter and you suggested that discussion should be on slack, with a slack discussion group, I think we are now saying that should be in the google group because its project / hacking related.  So that's fine.

I'm still of the opinion that lots of things can be done on wiki pages where everyone (on the internet) can see it.  The Teletype page is a good example of this.  Wiki pages don't need to be neat and well written, that's what a blog post is for.  A wiki page is just a random collection of thoughts on a subject that people can dig around in and hopefully help out with.

If all this stuff is publicly searchable there is at least a chance that someone who has never heard of us might find it and get involved.

I agree if there is going to be a few people who do some organising they might potentially want somewhere to communicate.  (But even then if its open people might see stuff going on and volunteer to help out). I do however think that things like shopping lists should be out in the open and in fact there is one already on the wiki if you look on the tools and consumables page - though it probably needs some updating or making into a page in its own right.

Rob.

[Gyrobot]

Obviously the slack conversation can be discussed further tonight. So I suggest at least put it on the agenda (sounding organised already).

 

But my two pennies worth.

 

Is a tradition online forum better, instead of the google group? Where sub forums can exists for organisational stuff and be filtered out from project related subforums etc. The problem I see with Google groups is that is is a constantly scrolling list with allsorts of conversations jumbled in the mix.

 

The idea of forums/subforums and threads is that the user can decide to subscribe at each/all of the levels. So if somebody feels that the organisational stuff isn't for them, they can then unsubscibe from that sub forum, but importantly, the information remains public and searchable. Unless specifically we would prefer a sub-forum, just for admin/moderators.

 

Any thoughts?

 

[Jess Robinson]

Given Damian may not be around until 8pmish, anyone mind if we move the
start time to 8pm?

Jess

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[Gyrobot]

I am happy with 8pm, but will probably get there earlier to sample some of the beers and ciders ;-)

[Robert Longbottom]

Yep 8pm is fine with me too.

--

[Robert Longbottom]

Yes a forum where we could create subgroups could certainly help to organise the google groups discussions.  It looks like you might be able to do it in google groups, but you have to go into the Manager page, so someone who can see that would need to have a look and see how / if it works.  Its a bit sketchy whether it works at all.

--

[Damian Axford]

In case you haven't seen it in the other thread - would be good to talk about the OpenSCAD series that Jamie and I have been discussing...   when I say talk, I mean 5-10 min discussion on who's interested/scope

Agenda

To summarise the agenda (!) for tonight (as far as I've followed it) we have:

1) PR stunts - align on the principle, discuss ideas, next steps

2) Events - inc Intro to Arduino series, Make:Shift:Do, OpensCAD series - agree scope, timing, roles, any budget requirement(s)

3) Procurement - process, tools, roles

4) Online tools (Google groups, Slack, etc) - summary of requirements (Jamie to lead?), discussion of options, next steps

5) "Board" positions - summary of roles identified so far (Jess to lead?), next steps

Given this is getting disturbingly close to organised...   I'll bring some flipchart paper to capture ideas/discussion, and does anyone want to volunteer to take minutes? :)

See ya later

[Jamie Osborne]

Well, anything would be better than keeping track of random tweets. (And if you ever manage to find those with google - and even that's doubtful - know it's only because twitter allowed you to! Likewise for Facebook.)

The wiki page I am well acquainted with, it was last edited in May - when I moved it over. That's the issue.

A forum would be better at this, but it's a lot of work - mainly dealing with spam once the spambots find it on the "open" web. ;)

Jamie

[Robert Longbottom]

Indeed, maybe we need to try and be more active at putting things on the wiki, though maybe we just haven't had much to add recently.  Hopefully it will get more use when we start some more group projects.

That does raise another issue I see with putting stuff in slack first then publishing out to the wiki or blog later and that's no one will ever do the publish part; given its hard enough to get people to write blog posts or add things to the wiki (and I include myself in that generalisation :-))

Agreed on the forum as well.  I wouldn't fancy hosting our own for that reason, so you'd need to find something existing.  I guess that's why the google group works, its just a bit non-structured.

[jmeosbn .]

Sigh.. Hopefully people would be more likely to add simple links or comments than to write a full post. Later, somebody (else) could collect that info into a post/wiki format. That the people posting the info don't then do the publishing part doesn't matter once that info is captured. Hopefully this would encourage more info being contributed.

When somebody (like me or you) wants to make/update something on the wiki - all the relevant info is there (sans any group discussion which occurred either here or at the hackspace). If this gets people that don't want to write a post, to record info that wouldn't be captured otherwise, I don't see why that wouldn't be a good thing.

This is just one use, but the point is that it'd mainly be used for stuff that doesn't currently get posted anywhere anyway - normally it's discussed in person, or is part of the hackspace evening. There's a lot of organisational stuff that's done (or more likely, not gotten around to) in person on a wednesday evening; this  could continue online in a chat format, similar to how projects continue on here - but only those interested would receive notifications etc., rather than spamming this group. Anyone wanting to help out can do so, they'll likely be a regular attendee so will be added to the slack group similar to how we have to add people to the github group - it isn't ideal, this is just the way those services work.

There's also an issue that some things can't be disclosed in an open group - at least not straight away - if you don't think large hackspaces have a way to coordinate themselves that isn't on the open web, then I think you'd be surprised.  I think (at least) one hackspace uses private google groups - but I'd prefer something a little easier and less messy.

Jamie Osborne

[Robert Longbottom]

Ah, sorry, I meant project / hacking stuff should just go straight on a wiki page, not organisational things when I said that.

Its should be easy enough for anyone to post a link or two to a wiki page, or a random sentence to an existing page.  Maybe someone needs to spend 10mins setting up a project page on the wiki at the start of a project and that can just collect info as the project proceeds, maybe with some tidyup of the page every now and again as required.  When the project completes (or whenever) then someone can use that info to write a blog post, but if they never do at least the info is already there in the public domain for others to see.  Maybe not as neat or structured as it could be.

And yes, somewhere to do the same for organisational issues makes sense I guess.  I just want to make sure that project / hacking and probably event stuff stays public from the outset.

Cheers,
Rob.

[Damian Axford]

boom - wiki updated:

• Homepage now has a 'Hackspace Management' link, which in turn is a place-holder for meetings minutes and other stuff related to running the hackspace
  
• Tonights meeting has it's own page -https://github.com/snhack/snhack.github.com/wiki/Meeting---14th-Oct-2014
• I've added a page to capture the materials for the OpenSCAD training - https://github.com/snhack/snhack.github.com/wiki/OpenSCAD-Training

ta da :)

...

[Robert Longbottom]

Good work!

--

[Jamie Osborne]

> Its should be easy enough for anyone to post a link or two to a wiki page, or a random sentence to an existing page.

All this is true, the fact is that they don't. I'm not bemoaning that - simply because some people are self conscious about writing/publishing stuff and that's fair enough.

Someone who's not up to doing something like adding a link to wiki page - as simple as it may be - may be more comfortable using a chat style "board" to add a link to an ongoing thread.

Anyway, I think we're going in circles - dispite some initial misunderstandings about what we intended (which could have been avoided just by looking at it) you obviously still disagree with it, and would prefer the info all be out in the open, even if that means less of it!

Jamie

[Jamie Osborne]

Sounds good - I'll have a look when I get in. Doesn't really "fix" things though. One person can't update all the things, even if they are willing to, they can't know all the things without help.

Jamie

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[Robert Longbottom]

Yes, you're right there. I'd prefer as much information as possible to
be out in the open so that it can benefit as many people as possible,
even if that means the quality / organisation of the infomation isn't
perfect.

Enough said, other people need to voice their views and then the
majority will lead the way - I will keep my mouth shut on the subject
(as best I can!).

[Jamie Osborne]

Thanks for that, but that isn't what I said. *My* point was to encourage more contributions - even if it's raw info that somebody else has to pull together.

Jamie

[Robert Longbottom]

Yes, I understood what you meant.

[Damian Axford]

On the subject of premises...  I had a random dig through the swindon.gov.uk website looking for the right councillor to contact, Garry Perkins seems to be the best bet based on his responsibilities - perhaps we could meet with him in a surgery session?  

His webpage: 

http://ww5.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgUserInfo.aspx?uid=269

Portfolio responsibilities:

Cabinet Member for the Economy, Regeneration, and Skills 

Councillor Garry Perkins, Haydon Wick ward

Portfolio Responsibilities:

Economic Development 

Museums, including Steam 

Arts and Culture 

Community Heritage 

Regeneration (except Wichelstowe) 

Superfast Broadband 

SCS Trading (and the successor limited company) 

FSL Ltd Client Lead Member 

Strategic Property Portfolio 

Changes to the Borough’s boundaries to support economic development 

Lifelong Learning 

Tertiary Education 

Skills 

Specific Responsibility for Lydiard Park Project 

Country Parks (securing sustainable uses) 

Parking Services – charges, enforcement and strategy 

[Jess Robinson]

The star of Wifi and other fiascos? Not sure if thats an advantage or not...

Jess

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