Intro and rigging question

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Erik Schmalz

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Aug 19, 2019, 12:05:27 PM8/19/19
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Hi all,

I’ve lurked for years and posted here once or twice before, but I wanted to get the boat wet before making a real introduction.

I’m the recipient of the extremely, insanely generous offer of Roy Ballentine last year. As someone who likes sailboats, wooden boats, and fast boats, I’ve wanted a Swift Solo since I first saw it in Wooden Boat Magazine many years ago. Time, money, and ability all conspire against me though, so I had all but written it off until Roy’s email. I won’t belabor it, but due to the endless generosity of Mr. Ballentine, I am now the caretaker of a Swift Solo of my own.

All of that said, I’m a rather incompetent sailor of it! :-)

I’ve now had it out four times, in light wind. I mostly kept it upright (a couple capsizes), and successfully set the spinnaker a couple times, but I never made it out onto the wire. Yesterday it was blowing pretty well, but it was a rather puckering experience….

Before asking all of the other stupid questions I will inevitably have, I think I need to make sure that the standing rigging is somewhere close to correct. Somewhere in the rigging guide or the “How to Sail” guide, I saw Loos gauge numbers. Yesterday I checked with my PT-1, and I was nowhere even sort of close. In fact, I don’t think I could have gotten those numbers no matter what I did. Are those out of date or for a different gauge or do I need to shorten the shrouds?

When I rigged the boat in the yard as I got it, the lowers were tight, the mains were less so, and the caps were almost floppy. With more playing around, it seems that the caps will always flop around to some extent. That’s a long way from 16 on my Loos gauge. Suggestions?

Thanks for any help. It’s GREAT to be here!

-erik
(living in CT, but sailing on Chautauqua Lake, NY)

Philip Ryan

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Aug 21, 2019, 10:14:36 PM8/21/19
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Hello Erik - welcome to the crew.

You are asking the right questions. It sounds like you need to shorten the shrouds. The old rigging numbers in the guide are still the right place to start. All the numbers are on the shore with no sails up, and everything changes dramatically when the battens and down haul do their thing. Set up your rig tensions with no sails, and use it and adjust it from there. Once you have it right, check it periodically. the spectra rigging never stops stretching and creeping.

In general everything should be tighter than you think, and then when you go sailing, it all seems looser than you set it up. The basic trends are: 1) tighter lowers gives you a little power low in the sail which helps keep the boat going when other controls are depowered - the speed this generates can help make the boat easier to handle. 2) Tighter mains make the boat more forgiving due to making the mast "softer". This also tightens your fore stay which reduces the camber in your jib - depowers it. 3) Uppers can be loosened to make the rig more forgiving. The  looseness limit is the length that is required to keep the mast properly supported with the spinny up. 4) the down haul needs to be tight enough that most wrinkles are removed from the main, and the camber of the sail isn't heavily front loaded. This is more tension and upper mast bend than you think would be right.

You have a couple of special considerations that apply only to your set up. You have North sails, unless Roy changed something after I last heard about it. The North mainsail probably does not have enough upper luff curve to make the sail work well on the mast you have, which I think is a standard Forte Swift spar. It will probably require less down haul to make it set. The draw back is that it will depower automatically before you want it to. This is an advantage for learning and starting out, and if you are under 150 lbs. But after you are up and running, you may want to get the luff re cut to fit the mast better. I have one of these main sails, and it is essentially useless for racing. In spite of 5(?) attempts to fix it, they never got it even close to right. The North jib is very good, and the North spinnaker is amazing.

The other thing I noticed in a picture of that boat, is that the tiller is much too long. Look up the normal measurement, it is a good compromise that works quite well. If you can't find it, one of us will measure ours and let you know the length. That is an easy fix. Measure it 3 times, cut it off to the right length and re mount your tiller extensions. I think the extra long tiller will work nicely in very light wind, but it will get broken and be a tripping hazard in jibes and any trapeze to trapeze maneuvers.

Let us know how it goes. - Philip 

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Erik Schmalz

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Aug 22, 2019, 3:26:10 PM8/22/19
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Thanks so much for the response. All of this is very helpful. 

It’s rainy at the moment, but I’ll take pics of the shrouds at some point for more clarity. It’s all loser than I think it should be, so I’m assuming you’re right about the shortening. I just want to make absolutely sure before I go cutting things. It’s not great news since I don’t have much time left at the lake, but I’d rather start out with everything right than fight it constantly, or worse, break something.

The tiller info IS great news. During crosses of the boat (jibes/tacks) and just trying to keep it upright in light wind, the end of the tiller kept giving me a... feeling that I’m not a big fan of. 😂 I’ll wait until I’m back home to do any cutting though. This tiller comes up at an angle at the end. Is that something I should recreate (or try cutting from the cassette end instead, which is all epoxied) or is it fine to terminate as a straight piece?

I DO have North sails, and I do NOT weigh 150. I’m more like 210, with a beer and pizza build, so I assume that once I get more comfortable, I’ll want power. That comfort is a ways off though.

-erik






thist...@comcast.net

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Aug 23, 2019, 12:49:27 PM8/23/19
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If pics go through, two should be attached. There’s one of each side of the shroud attachment point. You can see that the caps are as tight as they can go, but (especially) the starboard one is quite floppy. The mains are not what I’d call right. They don’t register on my Loos gauge which bottoms at 5. 

I’m assuming that that should make it obvious that I need to effectively shorten the shrouds (at least the caps, maybe the port main too). Would it be better to actually shorten them (I currently have no clue how to work with that dyneema or whatever it is) or come up with a different adjustment route? I don’t think they’re visible in the pics, but six holes on the side make it look like Roy had the cleats down on the side of the boat at some point. 

I guess today will be a Sunfish day while I see what you guys say. At least I won’t hurt myself on a Sunfish...probably....


image1.jpeg
image2.jpeg

Philip Ryan

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Aug 23, 2019, 8:19:17 PM8/23/19
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Erik - Nothing looks taught in the photo. The adjuster line looks sort of relaxed even as it goes through the main's tackle. Given that its size is similar to the shroud splice, the tackle should look tight if you are any where near sailing tension. When tension is right, it will register clearly on the Loos gauge and will match the tuning guide numbers. That is very similar line to what the tuning guide was built on.

Look up 12 strand splicing on-line, I think Marlow has a nice splicing guide, and there is a good tutorial on the Colligo Marine web page referencing Dynex Dux splicing. The best way to finish the end of the line is a locking Brummel splice (eye splice), although many Swift folks think the adjustable spice is good enough (it is a lot easier to do) and it seems to work for them, but don't forget to put a stopper knot in the end if you do this. I've had one pull out. You can splice with improvised tools (even a coat hanger works) but you really want a Toss spicing wand. Basically the rigging work is easy to do, even for a beginner. Just be methodical, and make your shrouds (and forestay) slightly shorter than you think they need to be. Your new splice will compress, and the spectra will continue to creep and stretch. Definitely remove the thimbles. They will eventually become mis aligned under load, and the end/edge will dig into the shroud and break it. I had this happen twice. Thimbles also makes the splice much harder to do well.

If you improvise tools, polish the ends of any rod or wire all the way up to at least 1000 grit sand paper so they move through the line without snagging. It is tedious, but worth it compared to dealing with snags in the line.

The tiller job should just be kept simple. Cut off the free end and re mount your extension hardware. There is nothing wrong with a straight tiller without the angles. The way it currently is, it is impossibly long and would make sailing really difficult, and steering in breeze when you are at the back of the boat would be almost impossible. It appears that the normal length is about where your first angle is. Definitely check for the correct length before cutting! - Philip

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paul.osu...@gmail.com

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Aug 23, 2019, 9:13:18 PM8/23/19
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Philip thanks for jumping here !! 

Eric I am happy to jump on the phone and walk you through some of this basic rigging so you can make this a lot easier to sail ..  .. 

Paul 
Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

Erik Schmalz

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Aug 25, 2019, 11:49:03 PM8/25/19
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Thanks much for all of this. With it in mind, I think I’m going to leave this until I get home. I’m only at the lake for another couple days anyway. 

I looked at the boat today and given your info, it looks like I could shorten the caps between 9 and 13 inches(!) The mains could go down at least 4.5”. This is the slack I measured with the adjusters at the (loose) ends of their ranges. Are there lengths for shrouds posted somewhere or are those not standard?  I just don’t want to get them wrong….

Am I right in thinking that the smallest Toss splicing wand (micro) is the one to get?

Thanks again for the response!

-e






On Aug 23, 2019, at 8:19 PM, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:

Erik - Nothing looks taught in the photo. The adjuster line looks sort of relaxed even as it goes through the main's tackle. Given that its size is similar to the shroud splice, the tackle should look tight if you are any where near sailing tension. When tension is right, it will register clearly on the Loos gauge and will match the tuning guide numbers. That is very similar line to what the tuning guide was built on.

Look up 12 strand splicing on-line, I think Marlow has a nice splicing guide, and there is a good tutorial on the Colligo Marine web page referencing Dynex Dux splicing. The best way to finish the end of the line is a locking Brummel splice (eye splice), although many Swift folks think the adjustable spice is good enough (it is a lot easier to do) and it seems to work for them, but don't forget to put a stopper knot in the end if you do this. I've had one pull out. You can splice with improvised tools (even a coat hanger works) but you really want a Toss spicing wand. Basically the rigging work is easy to do, even for a beginner. Just be methodical, and make your shrouds (and forestay) slightly shorter than you think they need to be. Your new splice will compress, and the spectra will continue to creep and stretch. Definitely remove the thimbles. They will eventually become mis aligned under load, and the end/edge will dig into the shroud and break it. I had this happen twice. Thimbles also makes the splice much harder to do well.

If you improvise tools, polish the ends of any rod or wire all the way up to at least 1000 grit sand paper so they move through the line without snagging. It is tedious, but worth it compared to dealing with snags in the line.

The tiller job should just be kept simple. Cut off the free end and re mount your extension hardware. There is nothing wrong with a straight tiller without the angles. The way it currently is, it is impossibly long and would make sailing really difficult, and steering in breeze when you are at the back of the boat would be almost impossible. It appears that the normal length is about where your first angle is. Definitely check for the correct length before cutting! - Philip

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 10:49 AM <thist...@comcast.net> wrote:
If pics go through, two should be attached. There’s one of each side of the shroud attachment point. You can see that the caps are as tight as they can go, but (especially) the starboard one is quite floppy. The mains are not what I’d call right. They don’t register on my Loos gauge which bottoms at 5. 

I’m assuming that that should make it obvious that I need to effectively shorten the shrouds (at least the caps, maybe the port main too). Would it be better to actually shorten them (I currently have no clue how to work with that dyneema or whatever it is) or come up with a different adjustment route? I don’t think they’re visible in the pics, but six holes on the side make it look like Roy had the cleats down on the side of the boat at some point. 

I guess today will be a Sunfish day while I see what you guys say. At least I won’t hurt myself on a Sunfish...probably....


<image1.jpeg>

Mark White

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Aug 26, 2019, 5:35:39 AM8/26/19
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Sent from my iPad

William Scheumann

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Aug 26, 2019, 7:28:51 AM8/26/19
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Erik,
If you do not have a copy of the Rigging Manual, Volume 1 and 2, see the link below:


The manual contains a list of the raw line measurements to use for each shroud and control line.

Bill Scheumann

Sent from my iPad

Philip Ryan

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Aug 26, 2019, 7:48:06 AM8/26/19
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Erik - The controlling measurement which determines rigging lengths is
the rake measurement. It is inconvenient that rake is measured to the
back of the boat, and the forestay length is what actually controls
it. The rake measurement is in the tuning guide somewhere, I don't
remember it off hand. Once you have the boat set up, marking and
measuring the forestay, and using that measurement instead of rake,
eliminates one step and makes the job go faster the next time.

Making your forestay splice adjustable (with a lot of range) helps
with the very repetitive process of getting the rake and tension close
enough for the boat to sail well. Most people are not as picky as I
am, but I try to get my rake within about 1/4" of the number, and my
shrouds within 1/8" of each others lengths, I put the tension one
number higher/tighter (on the Loos gauge) than the tuning guide says
because the rigging stretches and creeps.

When you are initially setting up the rigging, it becomes a cyclical
job: set lengths, measure rake, measure tension, adjust lengths, etc.
because I'm picky, the first set up takes me at least an hour. After
that it is close and "maintenance tuning" which I do 2 - 3 times each
season (usually when a regatta is going badly) can take as little as
1/2 hr.

Once tuning is done, I sail the boat and observe how the rigging
behaves. In normal trapezing conditions, depending on your weight,
either the windward or the leeward main shroud will be just slightly
slack. Since shrouds determine your forestay tension, this is a good
indicator of forestay sag which controls your jib camber and nominal
angle of attack. Heavier sailors need more power, so a little more
slack can work, and lighter people need a bit less power, so less
slack can be good. The consequence is that heavier sailors tend to
foot while going to windward, and lighter sailors tend to point. The
nice thing is that VMG tends to be about the same either way.

Then I proceed with being a hypocrite and change it all on the water
while I'm sailing, and being sloppy by not recording the rake and
tension numbers after I sail... hmm - Philip
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/093DD042-D5C7-4805-BD93-E8F8F4430D68%40gmail.com.
>

paul.osu...@gmail.com

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Aug 26, 2019, 10:30:10 AM8/26/19
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Thanks Bill for jumping in .. good to hear form you !! 


Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

paul.osu...@gmail.com

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Aug 26, 2019, 10:32:52 AM8/26/19
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Philip you should run a Rig Setting and Tuning Seminar on Zoom/Skype  let s do it !! 

Pick a Saturday this fall!! And repeat in the Spring 

I can help you a range it.

Paul 

Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

William Scheumann

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Aug 26, 2019, 10:47:09 AM8/26/19
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Erik,
The small Brion Toss Splicing Wand is the one to get.  You may also find a fid handy for some tasks.  Brion Toss also has a DVD showing various eye splicing techniques.


Bill Scheumann

Sent from my iPad

paul.osu...@gmail.com

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Aug 26, 2019, 11:42:27 AM8/26/19
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Thanks Bill, the big picture point t here is make the Splices Long to give maxim adjustment .. I’ll post some pictures later 

Paul 
Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

Philip Ryan

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Aug 26, 2019, 11:26:18 PM8/26/19
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Erik - Most guys have the small Toss wand, I inadvertently got the
micro. It works fine, but I have to keep an eye on the snare loop. It
is tiny, and has broken a few times, and been replaced with spectra
kite chord. The micro does the really small lines better (duh), but it
bends more easily when force is required, and doesn't substitute well
for a basic fid. The small is tougher, but pretty hard to get it
through old dirty 12 strand. the pros and cons seem to balance out
evenly either way. Basically you can't go wrong. It's a Toss wand. If
I had to replace it, I would get the micro again. - Philip

On 8/26/19, paul.osu...@gmail.com <paul.osu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Bill, the big picture point t here is make the Splices Long to give
> maxim adjustment .. I’ll post some pictures later
>
> Paul
> Paul Osullivan
> CEO, AMP RE Consulting.
> Paul.osu...@gmail.com
> 916 224 2374
>
>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 7:47 AM, 'William Scheumann' via Swift Solo
>> Discussions <swif...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> Erik,
>> The small Brion Toss Splicing Wand is the one to get. You may also find a
>> fid handy for some tasks. Brion Toss also has a DVD showing various eye
>> splicing techniques.
>>
>> http://www.briontoss.com/catalog/splicinggear.html
>> <http://www.briontoss.com/catalog/splicinggear.html>
>>
>> Bill Scheumann
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 10:32 AM, paul.osu...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:paul.osu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Philip you should run a Rig Setting and Tuning Seminar on Zoom/Skype let
>>> s do it !!
>>>
>>> Pick a Saturday this fall!! And repeat in the Spring
>>>
>>> I can help you a range it.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Paul Osullivan
>>> CEO, AMP RE Consulting.
>>> Paul.osu...@gmail.com <mailto:Paul.osu...@gmail.com>
>>> 916 224 2374
>>>
>>>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:mwhit...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 25, 2019, at 22:48, Erik Schmalz <thist...@comcast.net
>>>>>> <mailto:thist...@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks much for all of this. With it in mind, I think I’m going to
>>>>>> leave
>>>>>> this until I get home. I’m only at the lake for another couple days
>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked at the boat today and given your info, it looks like I could
>>>>>> shorten the caps between 9 and 13 inches(!) The mains could go down
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> least 4.5”. This is the slack I measured with the adjusters at the
>>>>>> (loose)
>>>>>> ends of their ranges. Are there lengths for shrouds posted somewhere
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> are those not standard? I just don’t want to get them wrong….
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I right in thinking that the smallest Toss splicing wand (micro) is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> one to get?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks again for the response!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -e
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 8:19 PM, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:thist...@comcast.net>>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:phry...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swiftsolo+...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/FCF9F1FB-A348-4FD4-A807-A2A385C6FD33%40comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/FCF9F1FB-A348-4FD4-A807-A2A385C6FD33%40comcast.net>.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/D1D97051-C2B8-413C-9102-C514B8966946%40gmail.com.
>

Erik Schmalz

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Aug 27, 2019, 4:56:18 PM8/27/19
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Ok, maybe I’m missing something obvious, but I can’t find any mention of mast rake other than in the part in the rigging manual talking about the mast step. Is there a document that’s actually called the “tuning guide” or is that the rigging manual?

I think I’m getting more confused as I get more information….

-e
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/CAD9YQ06G1X_KLbMP3X_QcsFXKCx3ZOKCVWv2RRMhPEchUxqg%2BA%40mail.gmail.com.

Mark White

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Aug 27, 2019, 5:06:25 PM8/27/19
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Forwarded from previous emails

Mark

Sent from my iPad

Begin forwarded message:

From: William Scheumann <wsche...@yahoo.com>
Date: May 29, 2012 at 14:57:16 CDT
To: swif...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Mast rake
Reply-To: swif...@googlegroups.com

Paul,
I believe that measurement is 23' 9" to the top edge of the transom.  
 
Bill

--- On Tue, 5/29/12, Paul OSullivan <paul.osu...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Paul OSullivan <paul.osu...@gmail.com>
Subject: Mast rake
To: swif...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2012, 12:54 PM

Does any one know the measurement from the top of the mast to the transom to establish the correct mast take 
Mike and I are setting up a new set if rigging for him . 
The measurement on my boat is 280 inches is that correct ? 
Cheers Paul 



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Sent from my iPad

swiftsolo1

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Aug 27, 2019, 5:08:00 PM8/27/19
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Eric

Don’t don’t despair.

The mast rake number is is not in the rigging guide

I need confirm this with others but I thinks it’s 23ft 8 inches from the top of the mast to the deck by transom

Tie the main halyard to a 25ft tape , hoist and measure

Guys is this the correct measurement?

Paul

Paul OSullivan
916 224 2374
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Erik Schmalz

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Aug 27, 2019, 5:08:06 PM8/27/19
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Aha! Thank you!

rha...@xmission.com

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Aug 27, 2019, 5:55:55 PM8/27/19
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I think that the measurement was something like 24' 7" for big guys
like me. Rake it back to somewhere closer to 24' 5" for lighter to
start. This is measured from the masthead to the bottom of the transom.

Philip will be more of the authority because he measures EVERYTHING.

Quoting Erik Schmalz <thist...@comcast.net>:

> Aha! Thank you!
>
>> On Aug 27, 2019, at 5:06 PM, Mark White <mwhit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Forwarded from previous emails
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: William Scheumann <wsche...@yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:wsche...@yahoo.com>>
>>> Date: May 29, 2012 at 14:57:16 CDT
>>> To: swif...@googlegroups.com <mailto:swif...@googlegroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Mast rake
>>> Reply-To: swif...@googlegroups.com <mailto:swif...@googlegroups.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>> I believe that measurement is 23' 9" to the top edge of the transom.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 5/29/12, Paul OSullivan <paul.osu...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:paul.osu...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Paul OSullivan <paul.osu...@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:paul.osu...@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Mast rake
>>> To: swif...@googlegroups.com <mailto:swif...@googlegroups.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2012, 12:54 PM
>>>
>>> Does any one know the measurement from the top of the mast to the
>>> transom to establish the correct mast take
>>> Mike and I are setting up a new set if rigging for him .
>>> The measurement on my boat is 280 inches is that correct ?
>>> Cheers Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On Aug 27, 2019, at 15:55, Erik Schmalz <thist...@comcast.net
>> <mailto:thist...@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, maybe I’m missing something obvious, but I can’t find any
>>> mention of mast rake other than in the part in the rigging manual
>>> talking about the mast step. Is there a document that’s actually
>>> called the “tuning guide” or is that the rigging manual?
>>>
>>> I think I’m getting more confused as I get more information….
>>>
>>> -e
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Aug 26, 2019, at 7:48 AM, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:mwhit...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 25, 2019, at 22:48, Erik Schmalz <thist...@comcast.net
>>>>>> <mailto:thist...@comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks much for all of this. With it in mind, I think I’m going to leave
>>>>>> this until I get home. I’m only at the lake for another couple days
>>>>>> anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I looked at the boat today and given your info, it looks like I could
>>>>>> shorten the caps between 9 and 13 inches(!) The mains could go down at
>>>>>> least 4.5”. This is the slack I measured with the adjusters at
>>>>>> the (loose)
>>>>>> ends of their ranges. Are there lengths for shrouds posted somewhere or
>>>>>> are those not standard? I just don’t want to get them wrong….
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I right in thinking that the smallest Toss splicing wand
>>>>>> (micro) is the
>>>>>> one to get?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks again for the response!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -e
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 23, 2019, at 8:19 PM, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> <thist...@comcast.net <mailto:thist...@comcast.net>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much for the response. All of this is very helpful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It’s rainy at the moment, but I’ll take pics of the shrouds at some
>>>>>>>>> point for more clarity. It’s all loser than I think it should be, so
>>>>>>>>> I’m assuming you’re right about the shortening. I just want to make
>>>>>>>>> absolutely sure before I go cutting things. It’s not great
>>>>>>>>> news since I
>>>>>>>>> don’t have much time left at the lake, but I’d rather start out with
>>>>>>>>> everything right than fight it constantly, or worse, break something.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The tiller info IS great news. During crosses of the boat
>>>>>>>>> (jibes/tacks)
>>>>>>>>> and just trying to keep it upright in light wind, the end of
>>>>>>>>> the tiller
>>>>>>>>> kept giving me a... feeling that I’m not a big fan of. 😂 I’ll wait
>>>>>>>>> until I’m back home to do any cutting though. This tiller comes up at
>>>>>>>>> an angle at the end. Is that something I should recreate (or try
>>>>>>>>> cutting from the cassette end instead, which is all epoxied) or is it
>>>>>>>>> fine to terminate as a straight piece?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I DO have North sails, and I do NOT weigh 150. I’m more like
>>>>>>>>> 210, with
>>>>>>>>> a beer and pizza build, so I assume that once I get more comfortable,
>>>>>>>>> I’ll want power. That comfort is a ways off though.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -erik
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 21, 2019, at 10:14 PM, Philip Ryan
>>>>>>>>>> <phry...@gmail.com <mailto:phry...@gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swiftsolo+...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/FCF9F1FB-A348-4FD4-A807-A2A385C6FD33%40comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/FCF9F1FB-A348-4FD4-A807-A2A385C6FD33%40comcast.net>.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>> from it, send
>>>>>>>>>> an email to swiftsolo+...@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:swiftsolo+...@googlegroups.com>.
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>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/CAD9YQ06Mkuk3wOrrkwj5tkgTEDm2%3Dz0OF_deONoqmxPqrLVTKQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/CAD9YQ06Mkuk3wOrrkwj5tkgTEDm2%3Dz0OF_deONoqmxPqrLVTKQ%40mail.gmail.com>.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/71383F06-B553-48D0-9A20-9E9E195C5097%40comcast.net>.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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Philip Ryan

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Aug 27, 2019, 9:29:32 PM8/27/19
to swiftsolo
Ha! very funny! I measure it at some point, but maybe I measure too much, because very few measurements get committed to memory, and I'm not organized enough to know where I found the info in the first place. That's the good, the bad and the ugly. - Philip

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/20190827155550.Horde.YNrHVmKnVpVgjHwn5VTQEw7%40webmail.xmission.com.

thist...@comcast.net

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May 12, 2020, 2:38:46 PM5/12/20
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Now that the rudder is shortened and the snow is supposedly done, I can start on the rigging lengths and such. As suggested in the quotes below, I’m starting with measuring from the top of the mast (measuring tape taped to mainsail shackle) to the hull. 

I can get 23’9” to the deck as Bill measured, but getting 24’5” to the bottom puts a lot of forward bend above the lowest shrouds, even at their longest adjustment. That can’t be right....

I’m attaching three pics to this: two showing where the measurement was done (and what it was) and one of how the mast looked at that length with the lowers at max length (or at least close to it) and the mains and uppers completely slack. 

Where do I go from here?







On Aug 27, 2019, at 21:29, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:



Philip Ryan

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May 12, 2020, 3:01:58 PM5/12/20
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Hmmm. Not sure what you mean by forward bend. If you say that it seems wrong, you are probably referring to the mast being slightly inverted. That is often how I set up on shore (mast has about 1/2 to 1" of inverted bend below the spreaders - this looks like a lot). Once you put the sail on with a little vang and cunningham, the mast straightens out and as you increase your sail control tensions, you get normal bend on that lower section of the mast. You said earlier that you were a pretty big guy, so setting the boat up this way will give you drive and power in the lower section of the sail. That is good in all conditions. In an ideal world, flattening the sail for stronger conditions should only apply to the upper 1/2 of the sail.

It looks like your set up might be good to take for a sail as long as you have more rig tension than you will need. The tension will drop off substantially in the first hour of sailing, so start well on the high side - meaning at least 10% higher than the numbers and plan on re tensioning the rig after the first hour on the water, and again 2 hrs after that. Eventually the spectra will set (the lines will feel hard even after storage) and the stretching will be minimal. At that point all you will be dealing with is creep, and you will only re set your tension every 10 to 20 hrs of sailing

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/C8A83B15-9A52-4640-B7A9-282E6CAC2B32%40comcast.net.

thist...@comcast.net

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May 12, 2020, 3:59:04 PM5/12/20
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By forward bend, I just mean that the forestay is pulling hard against the lowers, so the mast rakes back a little until the lowers, then is pulled forward by the forestay. It looks pretty crazy, but maybe the sail *would* pull it back some. 

Remember though, my original issue is that no matter what, I can’t seem to tension the uppers to even tighter than floppy. I can’t tension the mains much (when tightened all the way, I can still very easily deflect them inches with my finger). 

So even if the bend is correct, I’ll need to do some shortening, I think. I just want to make absolutely sure I’m on the right track before cutting anything. 







On May 12, 2020, at 15:03, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:


Hmmm. Not sure what you mean by forward bend. If you say that it seems wrong, you are probably referring to the mast being slightly inverted. That is often how I set up on shore (mast has about 1/2 to 1" of inverted bend below the spreaders - this looks like a lot). Once you put the sail on with a little vang and cunningham, the mast straightens out and as you increase your sail control tensions, you get normal bend on that lower section of the mast. You said earlier that you were a pretty big guy, so setting the boat up this way will give you drive and power in the lower section of the sail. That is good in all conditions. In an ideal world, flattening the sail for stronger conditions should only apply to the upper 1/2 of the sail.

It looks like your set up might be good to take for a sail as long as you have more rig tension than you will need. The tension will drop off substantially in the first hour of sailing, so start well on the high side - meaning at least 10% higher than the numbers and plan on re tensioning the rig after the first hour on the water, and again 2 hrs after that. Eventually the spectra will set (the lines will feel hard even after storage) and the stretching will be minimal. At that point all you will be dealing with is creep, and you will only re set your tension every 10 to 20 hrs of sailing

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:38 PM <thist...@comcast.net> wrote:
Now that the rudder is shortened and the snow is supposedly done, I can start on the rigging lengths and such. As suggested in the quotes below, I’m starting with measuring from the top of the mast (measuring tape taped to mainsail shackle) to the hull. 

I can get 23’9” to the deck as Bill measured, but getting 24’5” to the bottom puts a lot of forward bend above the lowest shrouds, even at their longest adjustment. That can’t be right....

I’m attaching three pics to this: two showing where the measurement was done (and what it was) and one of how the mast looked at that length with the lowers at max length (or at least close to it) and the mains and uppers completely slack. 

Where do I go from here?


<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>
<image2.jpeg>

thist...@comcast.net

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May 12, 2020, 4:04:48 PM5/12/20
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Here are some pics of 24’5” to the bottom. It’s hard to capture what I mean, but maybe right/wrong is more obvious to people who regularly rig these things. 





On May 12, 2020, at 15:59, thist...@comcast.net wrote:



Philip Ryan

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May 12, 2020, 4:19:15 PM5/12/20
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If the rigging was done like every one elses, you should be able to simply:

 -mark the existing entry point of the splice  (the point where the line enters itself and goes down the middle)
- then mark where you want the new entry point to be (sounds like as much as 2" shorter,)
- mark your new exit point
- pull the tail of the splice out,
- re insert the tail at the new shorter entry point.
- pull the tail out at the new exit point and tie a stopper knot

No cutting necessary...  and now you have a gross length adjustment on your shrouds. Some boats have this as their only adjustment.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/4493F572-226B-48F5-BB54-D10620D5D3AD%40comcast.net.

thist...@comcast.net

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May 12, 2020, 4:27:13 PM5/12/20
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This is what I have. 

There’s a ton of adjustment in available, so I think I could shorten the shrouds themselves at least 8” and still be fine. I measured last summer based on what people were saying and iirc, it was something like 13”. 

That’s why I think I have to be wrong and/or misunderstanding something somewhere. Presumably Roy had the boat set up well to begin with- at least he was sailing it however it was. 











On May 12, 2020, at 16:19, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:


If the rigging was done like every one elses, you should be able to simply:

 -mark the existing entry point of the splice  (the point where the line enters itself and goes down the middle)
- then mark where you want the new entry point to be (sounds like as much as 2" shorter,)
- mark your new exit point
- pull the tail of the splice out,
- re insert the tail at the new shorter entry point.
- pull the tail out at the new exit point and tie a stopper knot

No cutting necessary...  and now you have a gross length adjustment on your shrouds. Some boats have this as their only adjustment.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 2:04 PM <thist...@comcast.net> wrote:
Here are some pics of 24’5” to the bottom. It’s hard to capture what I mean, but maybe right/wrong is more obvious to people who regularly rig these things. 

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>

Philip Ryan

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May 13, 2020, 12:22:49 AM5/13/20
to swiftsolo
Don't assume that he had the boat set up right. I've seen people who sailed the boat regularly for a couple of years before realizing that they were using 1/2 the tension they needed. I would remove the stainless thimbles from the rigging, The little sharp ends will end up cutting the spectra. Just make sure that whatever the spice eye is going through or around is nice and smooth. Your splice ends have been whipped, so at a minimum the whipping needs to be removed to make them adjustable. If they have been sewn also, it could be rough business to find and remove all the stitches. To have any real adjustment available, the eye loop needs to be pretty long.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/6057A54E-7102-43E7-A9B4-60B728E6BA7C%40comcast.net.

David Lindsey

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May 21, 2020, 6:00:57 AM5/21/20
to Swift Solo Discussions
Looking at these photos; I note that the jib track is installed opposite to mine, i.e. it is curved toward the bow. I am in the middle of restoring my boat and this is a good time to change errors. I had my jib track installed the other way around. Which is correct? I assumed the curved track was to maintain (more or less) a constant distance around the forestay when tacking?  
>>> --- On Tue, 5/29/12, Paul OSullivan <paul.os...@gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:paul.os...@gmail.com>> wrote:

>>>
>>> From: Paul OSullivan <paul.os...@gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:paul.os...@gmail.com>>
>>> Subject: Mast rake
>>> To: swif...@googlegroups.com <mailto:swif...@googlegroups.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2012, 12:54 PM
>>>
>>> Does any one know the measurement from the top of the mast to the 
>>> transom to establish the correct mast take
>>> Mike and I are setting up a new set if rigging for him .
>>> The measurement on my boat is 280 inches is that correct ?
>>> Cheers Paul
>>>
>>>
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Ethan Petersen

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May 21, 2020, 11:11:00 AM5/21/20
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You are right.  The boat in the photo has the jib track backwards.
The curve of the track should keep the traveler thingy roughly a constant distance and angle from the forestay.

Ethan


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thist...@comcast.net

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May 21, 2020, 1:44:17 PM5/21/20
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Well, there’s another thing to fix. 

I still haven’t gotten the shrouds done because I’m unsure of how to proceed and after months of nothing at all, a bunch of other stuff got dumped on me in the last few days. I did do some measurements, but haven’t checked them against anything yet. If anyone has or can get shroud measurements from their working set-up, it would be of great help, I think. I’ll post mine asap. 

I guess I’ll also need some suggestions for changing that jib track....

-e




On May 21, 2020, at 11:11, Ethan Petersen <ethan.p...@gmail.com> wrote:



Bill Scheumann

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May 21, 2020, 2:09:44 PM5/21/20
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Ethan,

The Swift Solo Rigging Manual Volume 2, page 24, covers the basic lengths for the lowers, primaries and cap shrouds.  If you don’t have a copy, ask Paul O’Sullivan to send you one.  Is your forstay the latest adjustable setup?

Bill Scheumann

Sent from my iPad

On May 21, 2020, at 1:44 PM, thist...@comcast.net wrote:



thist...@comcast.net

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May 21, 2020, 3:37:45 PM5/21/20
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I have the basic lengths, and I haven’t actually
compared them to mine yet, but I’d like to see what actual working lengths are being used so I can get the shrouds short enough to use most of my adjustment, but not so short as to get everything too tight to set up in the first place. 

A rough measurement should be good enough, I’d think. I probably have 10-12” of easy adjustment on the mains and caps.

-erik 



On May 21, 2020, at 14:10, 'Bill Scheumann' via Swift Solo Discussions <swif...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Ethan,

rha...@xmission.com

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May 21, 2020, 4:07:13 PM5/21/20
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Many would use a slip eye splice to make a gross adjustment in the
shrouds. There will be a little initial stretch so you'll want to be
making an adjustment after the first couple sails. Then your
adjustment setup can make the fine tuning on the water. Once you
settle on a length, you can set them with some stitches, if you want
but there isn't much need to do so. The lengths in the guide are close
enough to start with. You can make needed changes based on your style
or comfort.

It may be a little late for this advice.

Bear in mind that the use of the caps is opposite of what you think.
Once under sail, the cunningham controls most of the mast bend. The
uppers control how stiff the top of the mast is and supports the
masthead with the kite up. To de power, you actually slacken the
uppers to allow more flex in the mast to open the head of the sail and
add gust response. Tighten them to get more power out of the top of
the sail. Rely on the cunningham and vang for sail shape.

Don't get too caught up on getting it perfect before you get on the
water. You can get caught up in design paralysis and not make it onto
the water. Experience and swimming lessons are more important than a
half inch one way or another.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/21B1108A-1239-4BC2-A8E5-79B4FA1335A1%40comcast.net.



thist...@comcast.net

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May 21, 2020, 6:12:36 PM5/21/20
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Thanks for this. It’s helpful. I’ll look into the splices- I think what you’re talking about is what the lowers have.

I’m afraid my shroud length decision is the opposite of what you think. Though I DO get bogged down in details of things I want to be perfect, this isn’t one of them. It’s just that I know it’s wrong but don’t really know enough to make sure I don’t make it worse by trying to make it right. I think that’ll be the case with a lot of things on this boat....

For better or worse though, I’m determined. 😂

EDIT:

I just got all of my measurements: Lowers and mains are close to the guide (within a couple inches). Caps are 8-10” long.

The adjustment mechanism adds at least 8” on the mains and caps, and can be extended to 17.5”.

Seems to me, I need to take a lot of length out of the shrouds themselves. It’s how much I’m unsure of.










> On May 21, 2020, at 16:07, rha...@xmission.com wrote:
>
> Many would use a slip eye splice to make a gross adjustment in the shrouds. There will be a little initial stretch so you'll want to be making an adjustment after the first couple sails. Then your adjustment setup can make the fine tuning on the water. Once you settle on a length, you can set them with some stitches, if you want but there isn't much need to do so. The lengths in the guide are close enough to start with. You can make needed changes based on your style or comfort.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/20200521140708.Horde.jqfyPsrRvXeyycw-q9YquA3%40webmail.xmission.com.

Philip Ryan

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May 22, 2020, 1:28:01 PM5/22/20
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Yes - the jib track should pass very close to the fore side of the mast. On some boats it almost touches.Good catch David, I missed that!

And Yes, Erik, that's a pretty important fix. I think that would make the boat almost impossible so sail in anything more than moderate breeze, and it would never go up wind well. 


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David Lindsey

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May 22, 2020, 1:34:05 PM5/22/20
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Not great insight on my part. In fact, I’ve been talking with Mike J about this. He agrees with my plan to hold off reinstalling the jib track until the mast is stepped. Yes I expect the track to be very close to the mast. What ever gives the best sail shape. 

Philip Ryan

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May 22, 2020, 1:48:48 PM5/22/20
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You will arrive at the right length for the uppers only after you get the lowers and mains "exactly" right. The lowers are short, so 1/8" makes a meaningful difference, but for starters +/- 1/4" should work. I set the mains up for racing with +/- 1/4, but +/- 1/2" should work for initial set up as long as tension and rake are right (with slack uppers). Once that is done, set up the uppers only according to the tension measurement and equal length/straight mast. Then raise the main sail and check that the leeward upper shroud becomes really slack, almost enough to wrap around your little finger. This means pop all the battens to one side and just remove all your luff wrinkles with the down haul/cunningham.

Don't worry - you will be good at this! It's like getting a 12 string guitar perfectly in tune. Every tension change affects all the other tensions, so you spiral in on the final result through repetition. :-)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/1A108B85-C703-4EE7-BD2F-C1E61C65CDC8%40comcast.net.

Mark White

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May 22, 2020, 2:36:51 PM5/22/20
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Might be a good time to check if the mast step is in the right location, and the wings go far enough forward to mount the jib track in the right location.  Both need to be right!

Mark

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2020, at 12:34, David Lindsey <swift....@gmail.com> wrote:



thist...@comcast.net

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May 22, 2020, 5:35:38 PM5/22/20
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What I’m missing somehow is how to get to the numbers in the first place. The lengths in the guide are for the rope measurements only and don’t take into account the adjustment mechanism, so...yeah, I’m confused again. 

I did finally start playing around with some rope and the Toss wand. That’s surprisingly easy and cool(!) assuming the shrouds are made out of the same thing I was messing with. 

Lol at the guitar thing. I’m a professional musician (well, was, until March 8th...), so I have a much better chance of getting the guitar tuned than this boat! 😂 

-erik






On May 22, 2020, at 13:48, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:



paul.osu...@gmail.com

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May 22, 2020, 5:56:59 PM5/22/20
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Tomorrow I can measure 013 Bram's boat’s and give you two key measurement,

1, from the Jib tack attachment point on the center line to the Track. This assumes you have a jib that measure ?   
2, the distance from the tack to the front of the mast. This is the most critical.

The side tanks are not relevant 


Paul 

CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

thist...@comcast.net

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May 22, 2020, 7:20:43 PM5/22/20
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That would be great! I actually meant the shroud measurements, but I was wondering about the track too, and those will help a lot. 

What’s under the track attachment points in the hull? Is there a block or something there?

-erik







On May 22, 2020, at 17:57, paul.osu...@gmail.com wrote:

Tomorrow I can measure 013 Bram's boat’s and give you two key measurement,

Mark White

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May 22, 2020, 7:22:13 PM5/22/20
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Should be T nuts under there.

Sent from my iPad

On May 22, 2020, at 18:20, thist...@comcast.net wrote:



paul.osu...@gmail.com

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May 22, 2020, 7:25:32 PM5/22/20
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Eric when you say the "shroud measures" what do you mean?

Paul 

Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

Philip Ryan

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May 22, 2020, 11:02:43 PM5/22/20
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You do the rake measurement and then the tension measurement, then adjust your main and lower shrouds and/or forestay to an estimated correction.
Then you start over with the rake measurement and do the cycle again, and again, and again.
When the tension is a little high and the rake is close, you sail for an hour and go through the measurement cycle a couple more times
There are no shroud length measurements per se, other than the tension being measured there and making their lengths equal.
The rake is the only length measurement, and tension is measured on the shrouds.
Some people measure only the forestay for both rake and tension. I've done it both ways on the Swift, and neither way is functionally better or faster, just different.
The reason for this system is that the rake gives you the correct position of the sail plan's CE relative to the hull and the blades CLR. This happens to give far more consistent performance results because hulls have width and gunwale height variations and masts have variation in the hounds heights. Therefore the tension of the shrouds and rake are universally useful while the shroud length is universally useless due to its being unique to each boat. As such shroud length is never measured.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/49667651-5C9B-4CC1-88C3-42FAF1A56A9E%40comcast.net.

thist...@comcast.net

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May 23, 2020, 7:23:44 PM5/23/20
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Hmm, I didn’t realize that the hulls/masts would differ enough for a shroud measurement useless, but I guess that makes sense. 

Im just forever unclear on how to actually go about setting things with no lengths and no Loos numbers. I’m sure this is the sort of thing that would be perfectly simple after watching someone do it once, but of course that’s pretty difficult with so few boats around. 

In any case, I successfully shortened the caps 10” and the mains 6” today, and left them adjustable. I’ll get the mast back up asap to see how it all works. 

-erik



On May 22, 2020, at 23:02, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:



Philip Ryan

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May 23, 2020, 11:38:14 PM5/23/20
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The loose numbers will be in the rigging guide. If you can't find it, I'll try to locate my tuning numbers.

At those tensions, 1/8 difference in length will effectively be the difference between full tension and almost slack. So the hull measurement allowance +/- 5mm is way more variance than the required rigging tensions will allow.

So only measure rake for "length", and only measure tension on the shrouds, and you will be spot on.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/BBE60738-D664-4738-A136-ACEB8B22F4D8%40comcast.net.

paul.osu...@gmail.com

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May 24, 2020, 9:36:40 AM5/24/20
to <swiftsolo@googlegroups.com>
Robert I really like this comment, my experience is to think big when cutting the length of  the shrouds  . Make the eyes of the all the shrouds big and adjust the eyes as you tune the rig on need to over think the length . 

Eric I did measure 013 Bram’s second boat 

The length from the point of attachment at the tack to the front surface of the jib track on the center line of the boat is 5 feet 91/2 inches. The front of the mast is approximately 1/4 to 1/2 behind the back surface of the track. ( Please any one confirm this measurement )

Good rigging !! 

Paul 


Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

thist...@comcast.net

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May 25, 2020, 11:47:08 AM5/25/20
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I think I’ve looked everywhere for some sort of tension numbers with no luck. If you have even ballpark numbers for setting up, that would be really helpful!

If it matters, I have the pro gauge. 

-erik



On May 23, 2020, at 23:38, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:



thist...@comcast.net

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May 25, 2020, 11:48:25 AM5/25/20
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Thanks for the measurements. I’ll hope to get some from mine soon. 

-erik



On May 24, 2020, at 09:36, paul.osu...@gmail.com wrote:

Robert I really like this comment, my experience is to think big when cutting the length of  the shrouds  . Make the eyes of the all the shrouds big and adjust the eyes as you tune the rig on need to over think the length . 

Philip Ryan

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May 25, 2020, 12:43:54 PM5/25/20
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Regarding tensions, in "how to sail a Swift Solo", on pg 3 it says that for lighter conditions you set the rig up with loose numbers of 24 on the mains and 16 on the uppers. On pg 7 it says set the lowers @ 20 and the caps (uppers) @ 7.

The general concept is:
- You want some drive low in the rig, so the lowers are tight. Keep the lower 1/3 of the mast almost straight when the sail is hoisted with appropriate cunno tension for the wind strength
- You want your mains tight enough to correctly limit forestay sag appropriate for the wind strength. This usually means the leeward shroud is slightly slack while sailing on the trapeze.
- You want the uppers tight enough that the mast does not invert (and break) with the spinny up. Tighter is more responsive and difficult, looser is more forgiving and easy.

The numbers should get you good and close, and on the water so you can start playing with how you like to set up your boat.

Remember: set the rake (forestay length) then set the tension (main shrouds). Check and repeat a few times. Close is good enough until you are optimizing for performance. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/F1E5524A-353E-43C2-8B3A-1973A3BD6BF0%40comcast.net.

Erik Schmalz

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May 25, 2020, 3:05:55 PM5/25/20
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Thanks! This sort of thing is easy to miss on a phone and my (11mo old) computer decided to grenade its logic board twice in the last couple weeks. I’m not having great luck….

BUT, after slightly lengthening my shortened shrouds, I can now achieve what I think is acceptable forestay length/shroud tensions! It’s all much MUCH tighter that it ever could have gotten last summer for my first try at sailing it, so I’m excited to see how/if this makes a difference.

Thanks everyone for your help and (probably more importantly) patience with my dumb questions. Have no fear- they’re not nearly over yet….

-erik




Erik Schmalz

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May 25, 2020, 3:25:02 PM5/25/20
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With the shrouds somewhat sorted, I might as well work on the jib track. 

You (anyone) may have seen that my jib track was angled upward and set on pedestals of (I think) thickened epoxy. Looking through pics, I haven’t found many that show detail of the track, but at least one showed it fastened directly to the wings. Is there a preference? It sure would be easier to just screw directly to the wings, but I want to do whatever is considered current best practice.

I’m also unsure of how to fasten it since there’s no access behind.

Roy mentioned that he thought the track was too far forward when he gave me the boat. Iirc, he did say that I could just grind down the old mounts and make new ones a little farther back.

As for measurements, my mast center looks to be 6’ from the jib tack. I should end up with a decent bit more than 1/2” clearance if I put the track at 5’9.5”. Not sure if that matters…

-erik

paul.osu...@gmail.com

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May 25, 2020, 3:43:17 PM5/25/20
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Eric,  I think the position of the mast matters a lot as it moves aft the center of effort will move with it . 

All what you think? 

On the angle of the track , yes 013 has it angle up about 10-15 degrees nor critical in my opinion 

Paul 



Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 
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Mark White

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May 25, 2020, 4:02:54 PM5/25/20
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Agreed, the mast needs to be in the correct location fore and aft for CE.  The jib track as well need to be the correct angle and distance in relation to forestay to acheive the correct jib shape.  The angle is 90 degrees from the forestay. I have looked for a deck layout with the measurements, but don’t seem to have one.  If someone can post measurements for mast and jib track Eric can get it layed out.

Mark

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On May 25, 2020, at 14:43, paul.osu...@gmail.com wrote:

Eric,  I think the position of the mast matters a lot as it moves aft the center of effort will move with it . 

thist...@comcast.net

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May 25, 2020, 4:04:56 PM5/25/20
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I wasn’t thinking that the mast was too far back, but I just checked to be sure. The plans say 75.5” back from station 0, which it is. 

Actually, my jib track mounts are right where they’re supposed to be according to the plans too (71.5”) but of course that leaves 2.75” or so between the two. 

I don’t know if it makes more sense to leave it where it is (but turn it around, obviously, which still requires rebuilding the mounts) or move it back and either build new mounts or fasten it to the deck directly. 

-erik




On May 25, 2020, at 15:43, paul.osu...@gmail.com wrote:

Eric,  I think the position of the mast matters a lot as it moves aft the center of effort will move with it . 

Mark White

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May 25, 2020, 4:08:04 PM5/25/20
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Eric,
That measurement, I believe, is for the jib track to be mounted between the wings.  If mounting on top of the wings, move aft .5”.

Mark

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On May 25, 2020, at 15:04, thist...@comcast.net wrote:



paul.osu...@gmail.com

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May 25, 2020, 5:21:01 PM5/25/20
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Thanks Mark I agree on CE

I have measured 013 and send Eric the measurements from the point of attachment of the TAC on the jib to the track and Mast 

P

Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

paul.osu...@gmail.com

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May 25, 2020, 5:25:42 PM5/25/20
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Good .. 

How are you determining where station 0 is ? 

Another factor is the Center of Resistance ie where the dagger board is (in relationship to the CE) .. I can measure 013 to check that too.

P

Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

thist...@comcast.net

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May 25, 2020, 6:09:05 PM5/25/20
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Station 0 seems to be at the front of the piece that houses the forestay and the jib tack connections. I checked it with a few other measurements on the plans (the first being 2.5” back) and all seems right- I don’t see any reason to think that anything else is placed wrong, and as I said, Roy did mention being unsure of the track placement, so that’s no surprise. 

Are the curved tracks all the same? The amount of curve would also have a measurement effect if not. 

-erik






On May 25, 2020, at 17:25, paul.osu...@gmail.com wrote:

Good .. 

Philip Ryan

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May 25, 2020, 6:10:27 PM5/25/20
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The jib track is mounted on pads or blocks just like yours, but lined up for the arc going back towards the mast. They need to be pretty stout because you stumble on the track when you are righting the boat after a capsize. So the gluing surface between the track mounting block or pad or plate and the deck needs to be able to withstand your out of control body weight flailing around. You have three options:

- 1) re create something that reflects the original build with T-nuts inside the boat for bolting the track to or
- 2) use a larger glue surface on a new pair of mounting pads, and install your T-nuts on the pad itself or
- 3) the hybrid approach - use threaded inserts and work from the outside to attach a mounting block or plate.

The original T-nut option requires working blind inside the boat using a variety of arcane methods that more closely resemble surgery than boat building or repair. It will take longer than the other methods, so if time efficiency is important, or you have little patience for difficult and invisible work that may take multiple attempts to finish, don't do it. If you are a masochistic, detail oriented guy with a high threshold for frustration and no time limit, then let me know, and I'll walk you through the concepts. It will still require a lot of creativity on your part unless you want to visit me in Denver.

The large glue surface method with the T-nuts in the pad is probably the most straight forward, and is how the turning block wedges on the cockpit floor are made. Once installed, they are pretty difficult to repair if the T-nut breaks loose.

The hybrid method is the same as how some boats have hardware mounted on the spinnaker throat, and some use it on the spinnaker retriever block. It utilizes threaded inserts installed from the exterior, directly into the skin of the boat. The insert increases the threaded and bonding surface area of the hole which makes it substantially stronger than screwing directly into the skin of the boat. The insert has a threaded hole in its middle for installing a bolt. It could be used to attach a wood pad, a carbon molding or a metal fitting that the track bolts onto.

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paul.osu...@gmail.com

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May 25, 2020, 6:27:35 PM5/25/20
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Eric this seems to be good .. my measurements to the track being 69.5 inches is from the Tack attachment point add 2 inches from the tack to station zero and thats close enough .. the main difference is the location of the Mast, mine being about half an inch behind the track your being 2 and a quarter inches further back… 

 
What does everyone else think ?

Paul 



Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

thist...@comcast.net

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May 25, 2020, 6:38:57 PM5/25/20
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Wow. Thank you. 

While I do tend to be masochistic and detail oriented, many times it gets me in trouble even when I *know* what I’m doing. I also want to make sure I’m not stuck in the middle of something when the time comes to go to the lake. 

That being the case, the hybrid option seems like the best idea to me. 

SO... I need to source some wood blocks to shape (that’s easiest for me, I think) and the threaded inserts. 

Is there anything specifying size/shape/material of the blocks? I’m wondering if I can make something that will cover up the damage from removing the old ones without trying to blend the automotive finish it has. It may not work anyway if the track needs to be very far back from where it was, but I just want to make sure I don’t do anything against class rules. 

-erik






On May 25, 2020, at 18:10, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:



David Lindsey

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May 25, 2020, 6:55:16 PM5/25/20
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I am deep into my refurbishing of Red Violin. As for the track position, I plan to reattach my track when I get the rig standing again. I will likely move it back another 1/2'. But that is to be determined. When I originally built the boat I had the track too far forward. My solution was to machine two aluminum mounting blocks. The block mounts directly to the wings with six substantial screws each side. These proved to be more than strong enough for the loads. 

I am not advocating this as a method, it's just what I did. Seems to be a reasonable solution to me as I have now filled the original screw holes allowing me to move it back without anyone knowing. Looks like I've spilt the beans now however. 

The blocks look pretty rough now I know. When I made them I didn't have aluminum primer. This time around I plan to do it properly. May airplane is in the hanger for some work and I hope to get some zinc chromate from my mechanic. 

You heard that correctly; I have two sailboats and one airplane I'm currently working on! My house is in dire need of attention. But priorities first.... :) 
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IMG_5152.jpeg

Mark White

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May 25, 2020, 9:04:49 PM5/25/20
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Station 0 should be 14’ from the transom, boat should be 14’ 4”.

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On May 25, 2020, at 16:25, paul.osu...@gmail.com wrote:

Good .. 

paul.osu...@gmail.com

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May 25, 2020, 9:05:43 PM5/25/20
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Mark great in put thanks 

Paul Osullivan
CEO, AMP RE Consulting. 

Philip Ryan

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May 25, 2020, 11:18:19 PM5/25/20
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As far as I know there is nothing in the rule about jib track mounting. If I was gluing it down I would make the surface 6 - 9 in/sq. If I was bolting into inserts I would use a minimum of 4  #10 inserts per side epoxied in place. David's 6 is probably better.

As to Paul's question about mast position, it's all about the CE relative to the CLR. That can be influenced by:

- dagger board location
- rudder location
- dagger board and rudder cross section and chord length
- jib tack location
- mast base position
- mast rake
- mast bend
- mainsail planform shape

In terms of boat performance consequences, a shorter list applies:

- longer forestay requires more tension for equivalent forestay sag (read pionting)
- more rake makes a more vertical mainsail leech which reduces masthead tip vortex drag
- mast base aft gives a slightly bigger projected sail plan up wind, but has undetermined consequences for pointing.

Bottom line: With that many variables, there are too many combinations and too many unknown consequences for changing the geometry of the boat. So unless you are a full time professional sailor, you will not be able to make any improvement over a known functional system and the only practical thing to do is put your gear on the established numbers as closely as you can, and spend your energy and your limited time learning to handle the boat and optimize sail trim.

Short answer for Paul: Pin your mast base as close as you can to where every one else has it! :-)

Another 2 cents - Philip

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/B5964315-0768-4DCA-BD56-1A5F4E55FAEE%40comcast.net.

David Lindsey

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May 25, 2020, 11:48:02 PM5/25/20
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Excellent post! From my limited experience in sailing that definitely seems to be the case. 

I also race a one ton keel boat. Seems to me The most critical component is between the ears. 

Philip Ryan

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May 26, 2020, 12:27:47 AM5/26/20
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Mark White is the best source for the angle you want to mount the track at.

You can check the track and see if it has the same radius (or close) as the length of the foot of the jib, If not, You might be able to bend it, but probably not if I can stomp all over mine and it never changes shape. So if the radius is wrong, you are left with getting the outer ends of the track at the right distance from the tack point,, and fudging the mounting angle to make up for some of the bend/arc/radius error if it exists. 

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 4:38 PM <thist...@comcast.net> wrote:
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/swiftsolo/B5964315-0768-4DCA-BD56-1A5F4E55FAEE%40comcast.net.

Mark White

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May 26, 2020, 6:12:04 AM5/26/20
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The jib track probably isn’t the correct radius, since it is a cut down 49er track, but that is what everyone has.  The track has two holes in the middle.  Put a long enough dowel in one hole and use a square off the forestay.

Mark

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On May 25, 2020, at 23:27, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:



William Scheumann

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May 26, 2020, 10:05:44 AM5/26/20
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Philip,
As always, your suggestions are spot on.  To expand on the T-nut solution and address the working blind problem, some builders have installed access ports in the deck forward of the mast to gain access to the underside of the deck for this very purpose.  Backing plates and T-nuts are the way to go for mounting the track.

Bill Scheumann

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On May 25, 2020, at 6:10 PM, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:



thist...@comcast.net

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May 26, 2020, 11:59:50 AM5/26/20
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Thanks. The long screws that were holding the track before are 1/4-20, so I just ordered enough stainless inserts to have at least six on each side. They come in on Friday, so I have some time to make the mounts. 

And thanks for the rest of your reply- perfectly said. 

For what it’s worth, I measured station 0 from the transom as suggested. The mast is still in the right place in relation to the hull. So now we’re back to my biggest problem being the mast position in relation to the sky vs. the bottom of the lake. 😂

-erik








On May 25, 2020, at 23:18, Philip Ryan <phry...@gmail.com> wrote:



William Scheumann

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May 26, 2020, 12:48:15 PM5/26/20
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Erik,
Some time ago, Mark shared some photos of his jib track mounting progress.  He does beautiful work, so hopefully his pictures below will inspire your solution....

Bill Scheumann



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On May 26, 2020, at 11:59 AM, thist...@comcast.net wrote:



thist...@comcast.net

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May 26, 2020, 2:30:38 PM5/26/20
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WOW. That IS beautiful. Thank you. 

On May 26, 2020, at 12:48, 'William Scheumann' via Swift Solo Discussions <swif...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Erik,
Some time ago, Mark shared some photos of his jib track mounting progress.  He does beautiful work, so hopefully his pictures below will inspire your solution....

Bill Scheumann

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