Re: [SLN] Digest for swiftslocalnetwork@googlegroups.com - 9 updates in 1 topic

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Edward Mayer

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Jun 9, 2026, 5:13:06 AM (4 days ago) Jun 9
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Erich Kaiser who had  a colony of about 90 Swifts used a cage-bird insecticide sold by the pet trade to eliminate Craeterina. He also collected the black pupae if ever he found them in his accessible nest boxes. His colony was extremely successful. A simple disinfectant will not kill Craeterina, unless used in massive quantities when it will harm everything else too. But something like this could do the job, maybe?

 


On 09-Jun-26 7:58 AM, swiftsloc...@googlegroups.com wrote:
Edmund Hoare <ta.h...@btinternet.com>: Jun 08 08:00AM +0100

I agree it is sensible to remove pupae from nests to which you have access. However if is hard to imagine the general public would do it. As to disinfectant-which and would it affect pupae? Edmund
 
Sent from my iPhone
 
On 8 Jun 2026, at 01:07, Dick Newell <dick....@gmail.com> wrote:
 

 
When someone gives a pint of blood, that could be 12% of the blood they have (an armful as Tony Hancock used to say) and that is in one go. It seems we vertebrates can tolerate a substantial blood loss without major deleterious effect.
 
We recover plasma and platelets pretty quickly, though red blood cells takes much longer.
 
Dick
 
On Sun, 7 Jun 2026, 22:56 Hythe Scream, <hythe...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Thanks for the research link Audrey. I read it!
 
There's no real evidence either way, but I would say that's because proper studies haven't or can't be carried out accurately enough to have a clear outcome.
 
Some consensus is the idea that there's a hidden symbiotic arrangement. That's possible, but there's no evidence at all to suggest this. There are two types of parasites, some like the "cleaner fish" do a good job for the host, but some just live off the host and survive in their own balance by not killing them. There's no rule about being symbiotic. Take flu as a virus example. There's nothing symbiotic about that! From what I have read, and understand about blood loss and irritation, there's no doubt that swifts do NOT benefit from this parasite at all, and it could easily cause them to move out of a perfectly good nest, or be weakened detrimentally to their output of fit offspring. I would advise anyone that has the capacity to disinfect their boxes to do so. It's down to "marginal gains", and the swift population needs every gain it can get. If you keep your swifts fit and strong it can only be a good thing, and until better research comes along it makes sense to follow that guidance if you can. I'll reiterate the importance of this; Just two swifts gained from any cause related to this parasite, could, in theory, create over 500 additional swifts in two decades. There will be other losses in these totals of course, but it shows what the long term impact could be. Every little helps, as Tony said earlier.
 
If anyone in this group has a faithful, regular pair under a camera, where the flies can be clearly seen at the moment, and/or where the swifts show irritation - would they please disinfect the nest this winter and check what happens next year and consequently? This citizen science is the way we can do some of our own research.
 
Thanks
 
Ron
 
On Sunday, June 7, 2026 at 1:45:09 PM UTC+1 audrey...@gmail.com wrote:
 
In case you haven't seen this and it is of any interest.
 
From Edward Mayer a while ago.
 
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3029137/
 
On Sun, 7 Jun 2026, 11:03 Carol Collins, <carolwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Hi Tony,
 
Yes, it would be good to think you might be but I have no idea how long the pupae can survive - obviously over one winter but perhaps longer? My experience of watching them does make me wonder whether a build up of Crataerina numbers might cause a colony to move? There are dozens of old nests under my eaves (apprarently a mixture of house sparrows and swifts) which suggests that there used to be far more than a single pair - indeed there were two pairs when I moved in six years ago. I know that house martins have a reputation for moving for no apparent reason from a site they've used for a while - could parasites be a factor?
 
Cheers,
 
Carol.
 
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 at 22:37, Tony Croft <the.cro...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Funnily enough I've always wondered about these parasites and I was hoping now we've had no returning swifts for 4 years we might be rid of them?
 
Best Regards
 
Tony
 
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026, 21:52 Carol Collins, <carolwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Whenever I read about swifts having Crataerina (which I presume they all do) the accepted view seems to be that the parasites do them little harm - that the swifts are not much bothered by them. My experience seems to be different.
 
I have a pair of swifts nesting under the eaves (not in a box) and I have a camera on them. The first year they were on camera (2024) they produced three eggs and initially all appeared to be going well but the infestation of Crataerina gradually built up (several on each bird and others obviously moving around the nest area) and in due course all three of the chicks died. Admittedly the spring was cold and far from ideal, so I was unsure whether the failure was due to the parasites, the weather, or perhaps a mixture of the two.
 
The following year, 2025, the birds returned, used the same nest, and successfully reared three chicks - the weather was much better and they had few Crataerina - so I don't know which factor was the more important.
 
This year they are back, in the same nest but with only two eggs. For the first week or so all was well but now they are obviously being bothered by Crataerina - they are continually restless, preening, apparently trying to get rid of the parasites. Watching them is no longer a pleasure because they seem so uncomfortable and I suspect that the same will happen as happened two years ago.
 
If most folk are watching swifts in boxes, perhaps cleaned out each year, it may be that the population of Crataerina never builds up? Does anyone else see swifts obviously bothered by them?
 
Carol
 
Hathersage, Peak District.
 
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Tony Croft <the.cro...@gmail.com>: Jun 08 08:24AM +0100

Good thinking....
 
We really don't know what's best...
 
Just wonder if we "disinfect" the nest box would thus put off a returning
pair...?
 
We could try various practices in different colonies if that were
possible? Perhaps interest someone in doing / orgaising a controlled trial
across a few sites for a pHD or similar?
 
Just a thought....
 
To clean and sterilise or not to?
 
 
Best Regards
Tony
 

Dick Newell <dick....@gmail.com>: Jun 08 09:18AM +0100

For those of you who still think it is desirable to clean out a nest box at
the end of the season, I can say that if you remove the nest, that is a
terrible idea. The Oxford museum did this at one time, with negative
effects on breeding success. They stopped doing it.
 
We proved conclusively that Swifts occupy nest boxes with a nest form much
more quickly than nest boxes without. They are more likely to breed, as
they don't have to first build a nest.
 
Preserving their nests intact is hugely more important than removing a
parasite that has been proven to have no negative effects.
 
Besides, climbing a ladder to take down a nest box to put it in the
freezer, then climbing the ladder again to put it back up, is twice as much
ladder-climbing as putting up a box in the first place. Why not put up 2
more nest boxes for the same amount of ladder-climbing?
 
And as for chucking chemicals into the box, what are we thinking of?
 
What am I missing?
Dick
 

Jean Stafford-Baker <skych...@yahoo.com>: Jun 08 09:07AM

Thanks for the reassurance Dick. We've seen Crataerina for the first time this year. It's good to know they won't negativity impact the Swifts.We have no intention of touching the nest. We waited 8 years for our Swifts to choose our box & wouldn't interfere in that way.
Jean (Norwich)
 
Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer

On Mon, 8 Jun 2026 at 9:18 am, Dick Newell<dick....@gmail.com> wrote: For those of you who still think it is desirable to clean out a nest box at the end of the season, I can say that if you remove the nest, that is a terrible idea. The Oxford museum did this at one time, with negative effects on breeding success. They stopped doing it. 
We proved conclusively that Swifts occupy nest boxes with a nest form much more quickly than nest boxes without. They are more likely to breed, as they don't have to first build a nest.
Preserving their nests intact is hugely more important than removing a parasite that has been proven to have no negative effects.
Besides, climbing a ladder to take down a nest box to put it in the freezer, then climbing the ladder again to put it back up, is twice as much ladder-climbing as putting up a box in the first place. Why not put up 2 more nest boxes for the same amount of ladder-climbing?
And as for chucking chemicals into the box, what are we thinking of?
What am I missing?Dick
On Mon, 8 Jun 2026, 08:24 Tony Croft, <the.cro...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Good thinking....
We really don't know what's best...
Just wonder if we "disinfect" the nest box would thus put off  a returning pair...?
We could try various practices in different colonies if that were possible?  Perhaps interest someone in doing / orgaising a controlled trial across a few sites for a pHD or similar?
Just a thought....
To clean and sterilise or not to?
 
Best Regards
Tony
On Sun, 7 Jun 2026, 22:56 Hythe Scream, <hythe...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Thanks for the research link Audrey. I read it!There's no real evidence either way, but I would say that's because proper studies haven't or can't be carried out accurately enough to have a clear outcome.Some consensus is the idea that there's a hidden symbiotic arrangement. That's possible, but there's no evidence at all to suggest this. There are two types of parasites, some like the "cleaner fish" do a good job for the host, but some just live off the host and survive in their own balance by not killing them. There's no rule about being symbiotic. Take flu as a virus example. There's nothing symbiotic about that! From what I have read, and understand about blood loss and irritation, there's no doubt that swifts do NOT benefit from this parasite at all, and it could easily cause them to move out of a perfectly good nest, or be weakened detrimentally to their output of fit offspring. I would advise anyone that has the capacity to disinfect their boxes to do so. It's down to "marginal gains", and the swift population needs every gain it can get. If you keep your swifts fit and strong it can only be a good thing, and until better research comes along it makes sense to follow that guidance if you can. I'll reiterate the importance of this; Just two swifts gained from any cause related to this parasite, could, in theory, create over 500 additional swifts in two decades. There will be other losses in these totals of course, but it shows what the long term impact could be. Every little helps, as Tony said earlier.  If anyone in this group has a faithful, regular pair under a camera, where the flies can be clearly seen at the moment, and/or where the swifts show irritation -  would they please disinfect the nest this winter and check what happens next year and consequently? This citizen science is the way we can do some of our own research. 
ThanksRon
 
On Sunday, June 7, 2026 at 1:45:09 PM UTC+1 audrey...@gmail.com wrote:
 
In case you haven't seen this and it is of any interest.From Edward Mayer a while ago.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3029137/
On Sun, 7 Jun 2026, 11:03 Carol Collins, <carolwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Hi Tony,Yes, it would be good to think you might be but I have no idea how long the pupae can survive - obviously over one winter but perhaps longer?  My experience of watching them does make me wonder whether a build up of Crataerina numbers might cause a colony to move?  There are dozens of old nests under my eaves (apprarently a mixture of house sparrows and swifts) which suggests that there used to be far more than a single pair - indeed there were two pairs when I moved in six years ago.  I know that house martins have a reputation for moving for no apparent reason from a site they've used for a while - could parasites be a factor?Cheers,Carol.
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026 at 22:37, Tony Croft <the.cro...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Funnily enough I've always wondered about these parasites and I was hoping now we've had no returning swifts for 4 years we might be rid of them?
 
Best Regards
Tony
On Thu, 4 Jun 2026, 21:52 Carol Collins, <carolwc...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
Whenever I read about swifts having Crataerina (which I presume they all do) the accepted view seems to be that the parasites do them little harm - that the swifts are not much bothered by them.  My experience seems to be different.  I have a pair of swifts nesting under the eaves (not in a box) and I have a camera on them.  The first year they were on camera (2024) they produced three eggs and initially all appeared to be going well but the infestation of Crataerina gradually built up (several on each bird and others obviously moving around the nest area) and in due course all three of the chicks died.  Admittedly the spring was cold and far from ideal, so I was unsure whether the failure was due to the parasites, the weather, or perhaps a mixture of the two.  The following year, 2025, the birds returned, used the same nest, and successfully reared three chicks - the weather was much better and they had few Crataerina - so I don't know which factor was the more important.  This year they are back, in the same nest but with only two eggs. For the first week or so all was well but now they are obviously being bothered by Crataerina - they are continually restless, preening, apparently trying to get rid of the parasites.  Watching them is no longer a pleasure because they seem so uncomfortable and I suspect that the same will happen as happened two years ago.If most folk are watching swifts in boxes, perhaps cleaned out each year, it may be that the population of Crataerina never builds up?  Does anyone else see swifts obviously bothered by them?CarolHathersage, Peak District.
 
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Tony Croft <the.cro...@gmail.com>: Jun 08 10:57AM +0100

Nest provision more important than the effect of the parasite I think based
on what Dick is saying...still don't like seeing them there though!
 
Best Regards
Tony
 
On Mon, 8 Jun 2026, 10:08 'Jean Stafford-Baker' via swiftslocalnetwork, <

T Davies <talya...@googlemail.com>: Jun 08 12:17PM +0100

One of the things I like most about wildlife, and swifts especially, is
that they aren't pets, they are free, and being free and wild includes a
lot of dangers and chaos, and that is part of it, although that doesn't
mean I can’t help them...
 
.. but I'd be somewhat disappointed if for example every swift nest in the
future was monitored and cleaned and all swifts were ringed, and followed
using GPS.
 
They are up there in the sky doing their own thing and they are amazing.
 
Let's give them spaces they can use, we are all agreed on that.
 
But the main point seems to be everything Dick has said, and also everyone
needs to know how much vast and real experience Dick has with swifts, for
much longer than any of us have been doing it........ most importantly
don't remove the nest, and a 'nest' starts off as a vague collection of
'rubbish' that you would easily destroy by mistake thinking it needed to be
cleaned. I have heard Crataerina pupae look like minstrels (chocolates) -
even picking through the 'rubbish' and removing the 'chocolates' does seem
an unnecessary risk and a lot of effort.
 
Free the swifts! Less interference! Nests are not neat! Don't squash the
little creatures just because they freak you out!
 
Best wishes
Talya Davies
Brent and Westminster Swifts
 
 

Hythe Scream <hythe...@gmail.com>: Jun 08 12:18PM +0100

Ok folks, let's deal with this sensibly. Some of you are getting confused.
 
I'll start again with the problem, the evidence, the cure and the benefits.
 
The problem.
From camera footage, it's clear that the birds visually suffer from this
infection. That clearly upsets them, and also upsets me to watch any animal
being uncomfortable. There is some suggestion that they will leave their
nests even. But onto the physical effects, it's got to affect their
production. Maybe not every time, but if the weather is bad, food supply a
little low, and you have the straw that breaks the camel's back. No one
knows how many young swifts perish from this in their first flight to
Africa. The motality rate is high, and somewhere around 50%. They might
struggle to get there for all we know because of this problem. Until they
can shrug off the fly, they will be weakened and struggle to get enough
food.
The evidence.
Firstly, all known animals that lose blood will fail to perform at their
best. This can be demonstrated by taking half a cup of blood off you each
day (the swift equivalent scaled up) and then sending you down to Tesco's
to get me some food 20 times a day. I am guessing that it will soon have an
effect on my food quantity! You can observe those with anaemia to see how
they suffer. In the real but strange world of cycling, riders used to ride
in the mountains to improve their blood, then take a few pints to pop into
the freezer. On race day, they would replace their blood with the 5* frozen
blood variety to win their races. Blood quality and quantity is important.
Now onto blood sucking parasites. Research has suggested that there are
ZERO known cases in ANY creature on this earth where blood sucking insects
give any benefits back. A parasite and symbiosis are two completely
unrelated things. Most blood suckers will cause blood loss and even spread
disease. Human equivalents of that are Malaria, Dengue fever, Lymes
disease, Zika, Trench fever, the Plague and many more. They all, without
fail, disable people. The massive loss of swift blood is bad enough, but
they may even have a disease that's not yet been discovered. It could even
be part of their recent demise. A disease can be newer than 50 million
years old. Take HIV as a recent example. Lots of diseases spread across
species these days, and for all we know, a "relatively harmless" fly could
now be spreading blood borne diseases too. They might kill the birds after
6 months! Think about that for a minute!! Reading the swift article, the
evidence quality around this fly is very sketchy to say the least.
The cure
We can't cure this disease, that's clear. But we are in control of their
population increase in the UK, and we want the best for our swifts. When I
used the word "disinfect", that doesn't mean hoovering out their nest or
using bleach!! I explained that the best way is to put the box into a bag,
and then into the freezer for 48 hours. Alternatively, you can hand pick
the pupae. Obviously, many boxes are no longer accessible. But we have a
plan. In my own case, I don't yet have any birds in my boxes, but I
designed them to be taken off easily so I can do this when it's time. I
suggest that when it's possible, you install boxes in such a way that they
can be maintained. You might need to remove dead chicks or unhatched eggs
as well. Many boxes are designed with removable fronts. But it's better to
take them down if possible. (As a side issue, I'm working on a box design
that can be removed and put back up from the ground. This would
revolutionise this issue)
The nest itself should not be damaged by sweeping it all out. As mentioned,
this is important. I pre-feather my new nest cups before installation
anyway.
The benefits
Firstly, the swifts will live comfortably, and be able to get on with the
job at hand. We will know that they are not suffering, even if we can't
watch this on camera. Any marginal gains can have a massive impact on their
population's plight, although we cant measure this.
The science
If there is anyone with cameras and known infections, would they please
raise their hand if they are able to help with some citizen science. The
chances of a PHD being conducted in this day and age are near to zero, so
it's down to people like us. We are the knowledgeable custodians. We need
boxes with infections and cameras. We need someone to hand pick, someone to
freeze, and someone to monitor a control box. The more participants the
better. I'm happy to design an experiment and collate the data.
As the original OP stated, watching them suffer is horrible. No one wants
to see this. It's possible to stop it for any birds in your custody. That
is a positive enough reason to do something about it.
Without real scientific studies, it's easy to dismiss this problem, but
using logic and experience of other animals including humans, there's a
good hypothesis to proceed with some remedial action. Every little helps as
you say.
 
Thanks for listening to me repeating myself ;-)
Ron
 

Dick Newell <dick....@gmail.com>: Jun 08 12:29PM +0100

Well Ron,
If you want to study this issue, there are plenty of Swift webcams here:
https://gierzwaluw.website/webcams.html
Let us know when you find one with a big infestation.
Dick
 

Hythe Scream <hythe...@gmail.com>: Jun 08 05:48PM -0700

Thanks for the links Dick. I'll take a look, but I can't get experimental
data out of these without cooperation from the owners.
Thats why we have the best opportunity within our group, where the issue
was originally mentioned and clearly upsets many of us.
I am happy to facilitate everything and report on the outcomes, but I need
data from those with problem boxes, and the ability for the conditions to
be changed and monitored for a couple of years. If no one comes forward,
then we lose our chance to help these lovely birds. If anyone reads this
message, please read my previous one too, and message me privately if you
want to take part. You can use a different email address to the one you use
here if you wish (send me a message to hythe...@gmail.com Put
"Crataerina survey" in the subject line.) I will not divulge your name or
location, I will just speak with you individually and collate the results
anonymously. If you know anyone else outside of this group that would like
to take part, then talk to them and show them my previous email if you are
able to.
To take part in this important research, you need to have boxes where they
are monitored with a camera, currently experience flat fly infestation, and
where you are able to remove the box for treatment during the off-season.
 
I know that many of you will be worried about the swifts under your control
and the affects that this parasite has on their general wellbeing. It's
horrible to watch, so let's help them to lead happier, and more comfortable
lives, and to be more productive towards our goals to slow their demise in
the UK.
 
Thank you
Ron
 
 
On Monday, 8 June 2026 at 12:29:35 UTC+1 Dick Newell wrote:
 
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Tony Croft

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Jun 9, 2026, 5:59:10 AM (4 days ago) Jun 9
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That looks interesting.  Thanks for posting Edward.


Best Regards
Tony

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Hythe Scream

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Jun 9, 2026, 8:21:26 PM (3 days ago) Jun 9
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Thanks for that Edward, I'll add that to the research plan.
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