Images of original disks of IBM games

[Stephen S. Lee]

I'm starting to build a personal archive of disk images of original disks
for everything in my collection. (Yeah, it took me years to get around to
that.)

It turns out this isn't usually what you'd find on abandonware sites,
which usually have unzip-and-play archives. I'm starting to notice a
variety of versions and I'm interesting in having them on hand. (I only
personally care about IBM/DOS/Windows versions.)

Does anyone know of, or have, such a collection? For instance, I'd like
to get my hands on things like the original disks for Pool of Radiance
v1.0/v1.1; I have v1.2 and v1.3. And there are also at least four
different versions of Spellcasting 101. (I don't know why no one has
tracked the Legend games like the Infocom games, but I might do so
myself.)

Also, is there any better utility than ImageDisk 1.18 that can image a
copy-protected 5.25" floppy that will run on a 486? (CopyIIPC+Snatchit
doesn't work on a 486.)

-- Stephen

[Jim Leonard]

On 7/5/2016 9:37 PM, Stephen S. Lee wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of, or have, such a collection? For instance, I'd like to
> get my hands on things like the original disks for Pool of Radiance v1.0/v1.1;
> I have v1.2 and v1.3. And there are also at least four different versions of
> Spellcasting 101. (I don't know why no one has tracked the Legend games like
> the Infocom games, but I might do so myself.)

Multiple versions of the same game are definitely being kept track of in a few
"unzip-and-play" collections. One collection in particular has, just as an
example, 4 different versions of Space Quest (v1.0X, v1.1a, v2.0A, v2.2).
Another example from the same collection has multiple revisions of Zork (both
the original bootable diskette, and the later DOS-compatible releases).

Full diskette images have less interest for archivists, but a few collections
and organizations such as The Software Preservation Society
(http://www.softpres.org/) archive diskette images exclusively. They insist
on Kryoflux images (see below) and they check the images for proof of
tampering. Another organization is TOSEC, although their interest in the PC
is extremely lacking, such that they have less than 1% of known produced PC
game diskettes in their collection, and they also have no provision for
protected games. A 2012 snapshot of TOSEC is available on archive.org, and
newer snapshots are available with some searching.

Due to the nature of current USA laws, most collections and organizations do
not make their archives available to the general public, but individual access
to each organization's collection is possible if you contact them and make
prior arrangements. If your needs are more casual, public access to smaller
collections is freely granted on archive.org for running in-browser and
downloading.

> Also, is there any better utility than ImageDisk 1.18 that can image a
> copy-protected 5.25" floppy that will run on a 486? (CopyIIPC+Snatchit
> doesn't work on a 486.)

ImageDisk is the best imaging tool for unprotected (or lightly protected)
disks, as the file format is open and it runs on nearly any system that can
run DOS. For true diskette images, where every flux reversal is recorded,
most people are using KryoFlux hardware. The KryoFlux organization's policies
have had some rough edges in the past, but they are better now; the file
format is open and documented, unprotected disk images can be translated to
multiple unprotected formats, and the current version of the software on most
platforms can write images back to diskette for use on vintage hardware, so it
is pretty much the best solution for "permanent" archival of disks. There are
other flux-reversal systems out there, such as the Supercard Pro, and the
software-only Disk2FDI, but these are not as widely adopted.
--
Jim Leonard (tri...@oldskool.org)
Check out some trippy MindCandy: http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.oldskool.org/
You're all insane and trying to steal my magic bag!

[Stephen S. Lee]

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016, Jim Leonard wrote:
[...]

> Multiple versions of the same game are definitely being kept track of in a few
> "unzip-and-play" collections. One collection in particular has, just as an
> example, 4 different versions of Space Quest (v1.0X, v1.1a, v2.0A, v2.2).
> Another example from the same collection has multiple revisions of Zork (both
> the original bootable diskette, and the later DOS-compatible releases).

I hadn't come across these yet, but that's partly because I've only
spot-checked the unzip-and-play collections.

I'm actually surprised any real variety for Zork I even exists for PC/DOS;
my blister pack disk is a bootable version 88, and Zork I was released
quite a while before the PC even existed, so I didn't think there'd be
anything native to PC/DOS other than 88 and Solid Gold. (Zork II/III I
can believe, because I remember dealing with the sheer bugginess of Zork
II version 7 as a kid.)

Though I'm not sure I'd actually trust an unzip-and-play Infocom archive
for PC/DOS, because these days it's easy to patch any arbitrary version of
any one of the 35 standard Infocom games to any other arbitrary version,
even ones that never existed for PC/DOS (like the hilarious Zork I version
2).

> Full diskette images have less interest for archivists, but a few collections
> and organizations such as The Software Preservation Society
> (http://www.softpres.org/) archive diskette images exclusively. They insist
> on Kryoflux images (see below) and they check the images for proof of
> tampering. Another organization is TOSEC, although their interest in the PC
> is extremely lacking, such that they have less than 1% of known produced PC
> game diskettes in their collection, and they also have no provision for
> protected games. A 2012 snapshot of TOSEC is available on archive.org, and
> newer snapshots are available with some searching.

Since I'm only interested in PC/DOS/Windows and primarily in adventure
games and RPGs, a majority of games will not be physically copy protected,
anyway (the standard in my mind is the usual "word x of line y of page z"
which we all know and love).

Is getting a "real" copy of such disks actually of any importance to
anyone?

[snip]

> ImageDisk is the best imaging tool for unprotected (or lightly protected)
> disks, as the file format is open and it runs on nearly any system that can
> run DOS. For true diskette images, where every flux reversal is recorded,

> most people are using KryoFlux hardware. [...]

I suppose I'll have to get a Kryoflux eventally, although the only
physically copy protected 5.25" PC/DOS disks I've run into so far which
ImageDisk can't handle are Angelsoft games. (Heh, I should bring up
"Angelsoft" anytime anyone anywhere talks about how Sierra games are
obnoxious.)

I'm sure you've also seen the problem of game disks that require the
master disk to get IBMBIO.COM/IBMDOS.COM/COMMAND.COM. I'm not counting
those as tampered with, but I can see how other people might. The same
goes for Infocom's bootable backup provision. I'll have to look into
that ...

-- Stephen

[Dan Chisarick]

Back around 1995-2000 I was doing a combination of NIB images and DSK images for games that I was deprotecting by hand. As time passed and I had less time for individual cracks I just did NIB images. I bought a few different archive products but the KryoFlux is the first one that really worked for me, so I went back and started re-doing my entire collection using that. At the same time I’ve started selling the games that I don’t really care about / that I’ll never play. Due to time constraints I don’t see the value in archiving a game that isn’t interesting to me. I’d rather focus on getting all the games I love than try to get them all and potentially never get to some of them.

I don’t track the versions specifically and in a lot of cases it’s not clear that there are different versions for individual titles, but I archive each copy of a game I have just to be safe. Notable exceptions are SSI games and some Sir-Tech games which are quite clear about their versions.

It only took me a day of reading the KryoFlux format to understand it and write a Java POC program to partially decode the image. For now I’m focusing the little time I have on archiving. I keep the images on a RAID5 array and encrypted in cloud storage. As my backlog of crap tasks clears out I should have time to go back and keep messing with converting the images (mostly Apple ][, IIgs and a bunch of PC with a smattering of C64) to something usable.

[Jim Leonard]

On 7/6/2016 4:25 AM, Dan Chisarick wrote:
> At the same time I’ve started selling the games that I don’t
> really care about / that I’ll never play. Due to time constraints I don’t
> see the value in archiving a game that isn’t interesting to me. I’d rather
> focus on getting all the games I love than try to get them all and
> potentially never get to some of them.

This is essentially what I'm doing as well. I'm down to under 1000 games, and
hope to be down to a "solid" 300 or 400 in five years. (When I'm really to
sell to y'all, I'll post a link to my have list ;-)

[Jim Leonard]

On 7/5/2016 11:30 PM, Stephen S. Lee wrote:
>
> I'm actually surprised any real variety for Zork I even exists for PC/DOS

The actual Zork game files are likely the same; what I've seen in terms of
versions have been incremental improvements in delivery. For example:
Booter, DOS version that requires ANSI.SYS, DOS version that doesn't require
ANSI.SYS, Solid Gold version (which has built-in hints).

> Is getting a "real" copy of such disks actually of any importance to anyone?

I don't understand what you mean by '"real" copy'. That's an oxymoron...

> (Heh, I should bring up "Angelsoft" anytime
> anyone anywhere talks about how Sierra games are obnoxious.)

How are they more obnoxious than Sierra games?

(The only truly obnoxious Angelsoft game I know of is the PC port of The Mist,
which is impossible to finish due to a typo made while porting the game unless
you know what verb is misspelled and can duplicate the misspelling.)

> I'm sure you've also seen the problem of game disks that require the master
> disk to get IBMBIO.COM/IBMDOS.COM/COMMAND.COM. I'm not counting those as
> tampered with, but I can see how other people might. The same goes for
> Infocom's bootable backup provision. I'll have to look into that ...

The Software Preservation Society can analyze KyroFlux images to determine if
they have been written to with a consumer device. If they find anything, they
discard the submission because it can't be trusted. So, some organizations do
count IBMBIO.COM, etc. stuff as tampered with.

[Stuart Feldhamer]

Zork only came out for micros in 1980, IBM PC was 1981, so I don't know why you think all the bugs would necessarily have been shaken out before the PC port.

Stuart

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[Stephen S. Lee]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016, Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
> Zork only came out for micros in 1980, IBM PC was 1981, so I don't know why
> you think all the bugs would necessarily have been shaken out before the PC
> port.

Huh, you're right ... Zork I should have existed for the PC by around
version 20-something (the 5th or so released version). Ports for the PC
tended to take ages then (OK it's faster than the port of Final Fantasy
IX). It must be an effect of small sample sizes. (Yeah, I don't have
multiple blister packs of the Zorks, sorry!)

I definitely remember the release of the PC ports of Ultima III/IV,
Wizardry II/III, and Bard's Tale I/II/III being glacially slow. One of
the reasons Might and Magic caught on, I think, is that the PC version of
that was available quickly (and it was never self-booting either, which
was still a thing at the time).

-- Stephen

[Stephen S. Lee]

I only actively collect PC only specifically to keep things manageable.
There's not much limit otherwise, and what I do care about still amounts
to 1000+ packages. (There is no shortage of adventure games that you can
solve in a single sitting these days, and that doesn't even count the army
of fan-made IF games.)

I'm increasingly keeping track of versions partly because it's something
that comes up in in FAQs. I haven't written a new one in a while; I'm
planning one of Pool of Radiance, Ultima VI, or the Enchanter trilogy.
(I get the impression that Ultima VI, even just the DOS version, is
possibly the biggest unorganized mess ever as far as versions go, but I
haven't actually taken a close look. I haven't reached my Ultima shelves
yet.)

[snip]
> I don?t track the versions specifically and in a lot of cases it?s not

> clear that there are different versions for individual titles, but I
> archive each copy of a game I have just to be safe. Notable exceptions
> are SSI games and some Sir-Tech games which are quite clear about their
> versions.

If you don't count arcade games, not having any kind of version number
whatsoever is the exception on PC, even in the very earliest days. The
very first PC adventure games are explicitly labeled "version 1.00" on the
floppies, and of course Infocom's games announce that prominently.

You do have to look pretty much everywhere. Disks, box, manual, README,
mentioned somewhere during the installation procedure, buried in the intro
screens, etc.

-- Stephen

> It only took me a day of reading the KryoFlux format to understand it and write a Java POC program to partially decode the image. For now I?m focusing the little time I have on archiving. I keep the images on a RAID5 array and encrypted in cloud storage. As my backlog of crap tasks clears out I should have time to go back and keep messing with converting the images (mostly Apple ][, IIgs and a bunch of PC with a smattering of C64) to something usable.

[Stephen S. Lee]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016, Jim Leonard wrote:
[...]

>> (Heh, I should bring up "Angelsoft" anytime
>> anyone anywhere talks about how Sierra games are obnoxious.)
>
> How are they more obnoxious than Sierra games?

> (The only truly obnoxious Angelsoft game I know of is the PC port of The
> Mist, which is impossible to finish due to a typo made while porting the
> game unless you know what verb is misspelled and can duplicate the
> misspelling.)

Angelsoft puts boundaries on its worlds by often simply killing you
outright. There's sometimes no warning at all that going north is going
to kill you instantly. The counterexamples from other companies that pop
up in my mind are the balloon from Zork II (but that thing is problematic
in all kinds of ways: grues can somehow eat you on the balloon, the Wizard
can instantly kill you if he randomly shows up, the volcano gnome showing
up puts you in a non-obvious no-win situation), and the boat on the ocean
in King's Quest V (but on the other hand, what were you expecting in a
little boat on the open ocean?)

You need to closely read the technical documentation. This might have
been standard in those days, but for most games even of the time, you only
need to pay attention to the actual stuff about story background and
things like lists of spells you can cast. Otherwise, you're going to
miss, for instance, that the "carefully" adverb is essential. (That was a
bit of a problem in Deadline too for the newspaper, but in that case the
alternative "read second section" also worked.)

You need to pay very close attention to procedure in many cases. "Whoops,
I forgot to do that procedure to properly secure one of the horses in High
$takes and got yet another game over." (Like Police Quest, but with far
less variety!)

There's typically a very strict time limit. It feels worse than the
classical lantern timer in the original Colossal Cave Adventure (which
itself is strict by modern standards), and more like Borrowed Time (the
other non-Angelsoft game that comes to mind where you can act reasonably
fast, and then suddenly die anyway from the time limit).

... I'll also say that I haven't actually seriously played Codename:
Iceman, which by reputation is the worst ever Sierra game when it comes to
unfairness. There's no way Codename: Iceman could be taken as
representative though.

>> I'm sure you've also seen the problem of game disks that require the master
>> disk to get IBMBIO.COM/IBMDOS.COM/COMMAND.COM. I'm not counting those as
>> tampered with, but I can see how other people might. The same goes for
>> Infocom's bootable backup provision. I'll have to look into that ...
>
> The Software Preservation Society can analyze KyroFlux images to determine if
> they have been written to with a consumer device. If they find anything, they
> discard the submission because it can't be trusted. So, some organizations do
> count IBMBIO.COM, etc. stuff as tampered with.

Okay, understood -- I'll start to mark disks that I know have been written
to.

-- Stephen

[Stephane Racle]

Dan, I'm curious about your setup and process. As I think we've talked
about in the past, I'm very interested in archiving a number of original
disks, all of them for the Apple II. NIB works in some cases, but not in
all. I did read about KryoFlux when it came out, but as I recall, there
was no way to take the archived information and actually use it to
create an emulator image or a disk. I could be wrong, this is definitely
not my area of expertise. Can you elaborate on your hardware setup and
how to move the data to something that can actually be used?

[Sam O'nella]

One curiosity I have is the legitimacy of even owning or running some original games is if they have known bugs that make it unplayable. In my scenario it was more from the comment of rpgs for windows. My friends and I bought some version of POR Ruins of Myth Drannor. We enjoyed playing multiplayer coop but when we were in some early Forrest area and ready to leave that area the game would just crash.  We shelved it and only a year or so after my friend found some several hundred meg patch from the company that fixed that error.

Bad part is does anyone archive those patches for the rushed to market newer games? Otherwise i may just be sitting around with lots of legal copies of unplayable "we'll fix it later" titles. :-( 

[Sam O'nella]

That was my understanding and problem with the kryoflux too. Lots of rants but if i can't recreate it from the format I'm creating without sending it to them then not really desirable imo. Maybe it's better now and they have opened up more but I dont personally keep up with it. 

My initial view although they have some respected entities using their format now was that of a pyramid pirating scheme. Scan your stuff, send it to them and they'll keep it and make a collection and at some point maybe get you a converted image back. 

But alternatives are slim picking and there's something to be said about the ease of a usb device that most of end users could attach and archive disks without a CS degree. 

[Dan Chisarick]

My pre-KryoFlux setup is an Apple IIgs with a compact flash-based hard drive. I have a IIgs MicroDrive IDE controller (http://www.reactivemicro.com/product_info.php?products_id=32) and very recently got a CFFA 3000. I either cracked each game individually (I have all the print copies of Hardcore Computist, Beneath Apple DOS / ProDOS, Understanding the Apple II / IIe and a few others) or I used SST (Super Saltine’s Transcopy, which is a modified version of Essential Data Duplicator which saved the raw track data out to unprotected disks). Once I had unprotected disks I’d use Asimov on the IIgs (by Ninjaforce) to copy the disk images to the MicroDrive controller. Finally I’d use CiderPress to copy the disk images off the compact flash card in the MicroDrive to a PC with a compact flash reader. CiderPress can also re-combine the SST disk images into a NIB image, which works in an emulator. This was years ago, when I actually had more spare time.

Even earlier than that (around 1999-2002) I used a far more convoluted setup that copied the files from the IIgs to a PPC Mac over LocalTalk, and from the PPC Mac to a Linux box using TCP (or AppleTalk over TCP, this was 15 years ago, memory is fuzzy). That was when I had WAY more time.

With the KryoFlux, I sat down one day with their stream protocol spec (http://www.softpres.org/kryoflux:stream), Jim Sather’s Understanding the Apple II (http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Books/Jim%20Sather%20-%20Understanding%20the%20Apple%20II.pdf  but I have both books in print) and a Java compiler. After a bunch of failed attempts I got a raw Nibble stream out of a KryoFlux stream file, and was satisfied that I understand what is being captured. That was maybe 4ish years ago, not entirely sure. Since then in my fleeting spare time I just dump disks to KF stream format (“preservation format”) and manually review the histograms and scatter plots to have a degree of confidence that the disk isn’t corrupted. I’m not 100% sure but pretty sure. 

Since that time I’ve been meaning to do any of the following:

- Finish my Java POC to at least make DSK files out of stream files

- Take it one step further and spit out NIB files (will handle some protected formats but not anything timing-related, weak bits, or any nonsense like that)

- Patch an emulator to suck down the stream files (SPS provides an IPF library to help with that: http://www.softpres.org/download)

For as long as I’ve had the idea, I would have hoped I’d have gotten further. Or someone would have already done it and while I’d hang my head in shame for not having moved faster but could at least enjoy some of my library. Maybe someone already has. I know the SPS already patched Vice for the C64. Didn’t hear if there’s a patched Apple II emulator that did a similar thing.

It’s only now that I’ve gotten my arse in gear and started archiving more of my disks regularly. Its only a few hours a week and it’s slow going but it’s better than no hours a week. Just a side note that if your sleep has been constantly crap for 10 years or more, maybe do something about it. I finally saw a sleep specialist and now for the first time in bloody ages I am starting to get back to some of what I just mentioned. Anyway...

I also recently (last in the last 2 years) found this: http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/clean_disks.html#damage

I haven’t tried it yet but I have a bunch of disks with varying degrees of mold on them. Does anyone here have any experience using pure isopropyl alcohol to clean mold off disks and perhaps read them one more time for archiving?

So that may not be what you wanted to hear but I am curious if anyone has had similar thoughts and maybe wants to collaborate or if this is already a solved problem and I can just focus on swapping disks for another 500+ hours. I’m all ears. 

[Dan Chisarick]

Well if you’re going for historical preservation, bugs are part of it. My one and only shining effort in this area is I archived the Microprose download section 5-6 months before they took it down. I have that backed up in a few different places. Other than that, not really. I have such precious little time for games that I focus on playing low hanging fruit.

The one and only RPG that I really, really loved that was sort of buggy as hell was “Darklands”. Well looks like Retroism now has a re-release on GOG (https://www.gog.com/game/darklands). That only took 2 decades+. So maybe if you’re patient it will eventually get patched :)

On Jul 9, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Sam O'nella <bary...@gmail.com> wrote:

One curiosity I have is the legitimacy of even owning or running some original games is if they have known bugs that make it unplayable. In my scenario it was more from the comment of rpgs for windows. My friends and I bought some version of POR Ruins of Myth Drannor. We enjoyed playing multiplayer coop but when we were in some early Forrest area and ready to leave that area the game would just crash.  We shelved it and only a year or so after my friend found some several hundred meg patch from the company that fixed that error.

Bad part is does anyone archive those patches for the rushed to market newer games? Otherwise i may just be sitting around with lots of legal copies of unplayable "we'll fix it later" titles. :-( 

[John Romero]

In 1997 I decided I had better do something with my aging disks. I had a Pentium-something and an Apple IIe. I knew that the SHK format on the Apple was basically the DSK format used in emulators, so I used Andy Nicholas’ SHRINKIT utility on the Apple II to create images of all my disks. I then needed a way to get these SHK files over to the PC. 

Since it was a Saturday and I really wanted to do all of it in one day I decided to use whatever I had. I had a Super Serial Card and a serial cable with a broken pin, so I had 7 bits. 

I wrote a custom utility in 6502 asm that read ProDOS blocks, converted them into a text format (5 bits) then sent them down the serial cable. On the PC side I captured the all-text stream using ProCOMM, then wrote a custom utility that converted the text stream into a DSK file.

The text stream looked something like this:

Disk1Code

000000: 0E AA B4 C9 DD F7 74 02 34 72 D7 D9 B8 E9 00 10

000010: EB CC C1 8E E2 C5 6E 38 21 EE A0 B1 B3 E7 DA 55

...

It wasn’t convoluted at all and was achieved with a broken serial cable and no fancy hardware. I believe the same result can be achieved today with non-protected disks. It took me 11 hours to write and process everything.

John
----------------------------------------------------
 John Romero

President, Co-founder
Loot Drop, Inc.

e: jo...@lootdrop.com
c: +353.083.802.5795

t: @romero

s: theromero

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[Stephane Racle]

I don't think that's much of an issue anymore though. ADTPro is Java-based and supports transfer through serial ports, Ethernet (Uthernet or LANceGS), and cassette ports. Pretty much anything you could ask for, and supports bootstrapping, batch transfers, etc.

Very useful.

[John Romero]

What are the steps and hardware required for me to get ADTPro and to get it working?

THANKS! 

John
----------------------------------------------------
 John Romero

President, Co-founder
Loot Drop, Inc.

e: jo...@lootdrop.com
c: +353.083.802.5795

t: @romero

s: theromero

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure and/or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by email and/or telephone, destroy and delete all copies of the original message and any attachments thereto.

[Stephen S. Lee]

The Patches Scrolls should have the most up-to-date patches for just about
anything starting in the early CD era (it won't have a lot of historical
older ones, though -- which is what I want for games I care about). Even
if it didn't, other people take even terrible AD&D computer games
seriously enough that there's stuff available for download.

The main trouble is getting patches for games that pre-date Internet
distribution. I haven't reached the Ultima section of my collection yet
for archiving, but Ultima VI is probably going to be the worst by a large
margin (that game is bizarrely neglected in all kinds of ways). That had
a ton of patches, released more or less the way Infocom did (either in the
box or because you called in), except without the extensive version
history Infocom fans have covered for years.

If you have a collection of old Questbusters, Computer Gaming World, etc.
a lot of that is even documented in the magazine. I remember "Ultima VI:
The Bug" being a deal in its very earliest days, which turned out to be
hilarious minor compared to the other bugs early Ultima VI had. (Playing
on only floppies did not work past a certain point -- yes you could play
the thing on an original IBM with CGA, no mouse, and no hard drive! Yes,
I tried it. No, I wouldn't recommend it.)

POR: Ruins of Myth Drannor is NOTORIOUSLY awful, from everything I've
heard, though. That one I'm not sure I'd touch without serious
precautions to protect your operating system ("whoops Windows doesn't boot
now").

-- Stephen

On Sat, 9 Jul 2016, Dan Chisarick wrote:

> Well if you?re going for historical preservation, bugs are part of it. My one

> and only shining effort in this area is I archived the Microprose download
> section 5-6 months before they took it down. I have that backed up in a few
> different places. Other than that, not really. I have such precious little
> time for games that I focus on playing low hanging fruit.
>
> The one and only RPG that I really, really loved that was sort of buggy as

> hell was ?Darklands?. Well looks like Retroism now has a re-release on GOG

> (https://www.gog.com/game/darklands). That only took 2 decades+. So maybe if

> you?re patient it will eventually get patched :)

[Stephane Racle]

It's actually really well described on the ADTPro page:

http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/