Discrepancy ArcSWAT simulation & SWAT-CUP

[Timo Brussee]

Dear SWAT/SWAT-CUP users,

I found that my ArcSWAT and SWAT-CUP give different model outcomes.

I have a model with 32 subbasins and I calibrate on subbasin 1 & 2 upstream and number 20 somewhere almost downstream.

The upper two basins (1 & 2) had a flow that follows the observed value well enough for me to calibrate, for the lower one this was not the case (basin 20) the correlation was mediocre (0.25) but fine as I hadn't calibrate yet.

I will give you here respectively the outcome of ArcSWAT run / (observed value) / SWAT-CUP 

SWAT-CUP was one  run with one parameter that shouldn't affect model outcome        SNOCOVMX   Min 0 Max 0.

FLOW_OUT Upstream Subbasin 1: 8.8 (8.2) 11.91 cms

FLOW_OUT Upstream Subbasin 2:8.7 (4.86) 13.90 cms

FLOW_OUT Downstream Subbasin 20:88 (40.21) 4.41 cms

The values above are from the summary_Stat.txt & from the OUTPUT.mdb making a query of .rch Grouped by subbasin.

Howcome these values in SWAT-CUP and ArcSWAT are so different? Did something go wrong in the coupling of ArcSWAT?

Is it possible that the subbasins in SWAT are switched somehow?

What I simly do is I save a simulation in ArcSWAT2012 and I use that exact same simulation when I start a new project in SWAT-CUP.

Version of ArcSWAT: ArcSWAT Version 2012.10_2.18 released 9/9/15

Version of SWAT-CUP: Version 5.1.6.2 

I got my SWAT-CUP from  http://swat.tamu.edu/software/swat-cup/

I have already been calibrating some days playing with the parameters, hoping that the discharge of subbasin 20 would increase from 4.4 to 40 but against my better judgement...I couldn't even get it near that 40 cms. .

I probably made a rookie mistake somewhere...? I have followed the SWAT-CUP manual 

If there is anything that I can append to clarify let me know. 

Every bit of help is welcome. Thanks.

Best,

Timo

[Timo Brussee]

I had a look at the No-Observed plot of the same subbasins.

The 95ppu-No-Observed plot for FLOW should be identical to the 95ppu plot under the condition that I picked the exact same period, time-step and that my observed record is 100%. Is this statement correct?

If so:

I have 1414 data points out of a 1461 for four years of daily flow measurements. I added my No-observed and regular plot here as an attachment. These are very different for subbasin 20. How come? Is this an error in SWAT-CUP? 

I assumed that FLOW_OUT = R_FLOW  is this true?

It appears to be the case for subbasin 1, but not for subbasin 20, see attachments.

[MohammadReza Eini]

Dear Timo,

I think your versions of swat.exe are not same. Download the last version of swat and replace with swat.exe in SWAT-CUP and ArcSWAT directory and also you can rewrite them into SWAT-CUP project directory.

Remember that name and version of swat.exe should be same as default name in directory. 

Mohammad Reza Eini

University of Tehran

[Timo Brussee]

Dear Mohammed,

Thanks for your suggestion!

Do you mean I used 64 bits in stead of 32 bits?? because I did indicate that I am using a SWAT2012 version.

I think I have downloaded SWAt-CUP about 3 months after I downloaded ArcSWAT2012 from the swat.tamu.edu website, so they should be pretty compatible. Anyway I will see what happens when I select the 32 bits, see if that helps..

[MohammadReza Eini]

Dear Timo

No.

In Arcswat directory (C:\SWAT\ArcSWAT) you can find 4 versions of SWAT execute files.

Also in SWAT-CUP directory (\SWAT-CUP\ExternalData\SourceData) you have 19 folder. In this directory you can find 2 folders for SWAT 2012 (SWAT2012_x64 & x32). SWAT-CUP use this files for calibration and run SWAT2012. 

These versions of swat execute files (swat.exe) are not same (revision versions are different).

For example swat execute files in ArcSWAT are for 1 year ago (revision x) and in SWAT-CUP, swat execute files are for 2 years ago (revision y). Although both of them are 2012 versions. SWAT execute files are developing and changing during year.

I have this problem too. I downloaded the last version of SWAT (http://swat.tamu.edu/software/swat-executables/) and copy and replace swat execute files to ArcSWAT and SWAT-CUP directories.

You should download and copy last swat execute files in ArcSwat and SWAT-CUP directories (be careful about files name).

ArcSWAT default names for execute files are:

SWAT_32debug.exe

SWAT_64debug.exe

SWAT_32rel.exe

SWAT_64rel.exe

SWAT-CUP default names for execute files are:

swat.exe

(x64 and x32 folders are different)

Mohammad Reza Eini

University of Tehran

[Timo Brussee]

Thank you so much! :)

I solved part of my problem, so it turns out I had forgotten to change the reach number 20 in the SUFI2_extract_rch.def &  I indeed was executing the 32 bits in ArcSWAT but running the 64 bits in SWAT-CUP.

 

This gave me some new means in cms over a period of 4 years:

 ArcSWAT run / (observed value) / SWAT-CUP 

FLOW_OUT Upstream Subbasin 1: 8.8 (8.2) 8.45 cms

FLOW_OUT Upstream Subbasin 2:8.7 (4.86) 7.65 cms

FLOW_OUT Downstream Subbasin 20:88 (40.21) 89.94 cms

This is similar enough, I guess the rest of the deviation can be explained by missing values.

 I have one last follow-up question. I am kind of curious on how these versions are different, the answer might be a bit too technical for me, but I still would like to try to understand.

See, I have a 64 bits laptop running a 32 bit ArcGIS in which ArcSWAT is an extension which you apparently can run in 32 bit and 64 bit debug and release version. The debug running slower but giving errors when needed.
Should I run the 32 bit or 64 bit?

I assume debug or release only affects the speed in ArcSWAT and not in SWAT-CUP.
I am tempted to run 32 bit because it gives better outcomes. But the fact that there is a difference inoutcome between the 32 bit and 64 bit makes me think that if I use the "wrong one" would make me think that the underlying assumptions are slightly different.

Could this also explain why my variable SURLAG had no sensitivity at all earlier on in calibration & sensitivity analysis?  

Thanks for al your help again!

 

[MohammadReza Eini]

I think there is no difference between 32 bit and 64 bit, but I prefer to use 64 bit because it can use more Memory (RAM) capacity (In general 64 bit softwares can use more than 2 GB RAM).

Try 32 bit and 64 bit in SWAT-CUP and compare outcomes.

Visit Revision History webpage (http://swat.tamu.edu/software/swat-executables/revisions/):

Revision 635

• IEVENT simplified/clarified ieven t= 2 and 3 removed
  • 0 daily rainfall/curve number technique
  • 1 sub-daily rainfall/Green&Ampt/hourly routing

Revision 634

• No significant changes.

Revision 633

• Clarified CSWAT (carbon) code:
  • 0 Static soil carbon (old mineralization routines)
  • 1 C-FARM one carbon pool model
  • 2 Century model
• Added default for SOL_CBN = 0.0 (0.10).

Revision 632

• Added the AREA(km2) to the output.mgt file.

....

Mohammad Reza Eini

University of Tehran

[Timo Brussee]

Great and complete answers :) Thanks a lot

 I will experiment a bit of with the 32 bit and 64 bit, I thought the 64 bit version was faster.
Good to be able to see revisions ! 

[Rajveer]

Hello Friends,

I am facing the same problem of output mismatch.

I am using QSWAT 1.3 version and SWAT CUP 5.1.6.2 version.

Could you please tell me are they compatible or not.

If not then how can I resolve this problem.

Please suggest me. I spent lot of time on this but did not get its solution.

Thanking you

[Sushant Mehan]

Dear Rajveer

Question here for you is how you are using the outputs from SWAT CUP? Have you checked your TxtinOut folder after working on SWAT CUP, are the values changed as per best parameterization? See the files. There should not  be any discrepancy. Read about swatedit.exe in SWAT CUP. Check the values. These two can be your best bet for now.

Good Luck !!!

[baba guru]

Hello Sushant,

Thanks for replying

I checked the TxinOut files and there values are changed based on simulation. I also checked all the files after running the best fitted parameters in SWAT CUP and the values of parameter were changed.
But when I used these calibrated parameter values in QSWAT again and compare the Output.std files of SWAT CUP and QSWAT they were different.

So I want to why these output are different......because of versions or is there any other reason??

Ok I 'll read about swatedit.exe in SWAT CUP.

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[Sushant Mehan]

So are your two versions different? If so then yes certainly the results would be different till the time algorithm to compute certain parameters is not changing in the two versions. My second thought is transferring the parameters correctly and rewriting tables if you are manually changing. I hope the relative changes are getting correctly translated. 

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[baba guru]

I am using SWAT CUP 2012 and also QSWAT 2012. I want to know that QSWAT 1.3 and SWAT CUP 5.1.6.2 versions are compatible or not?

The relative changes made correctly for that I have added 1 in the calibrated value and then multiple with the existing value. Like for CN2 the best fitted value was 0.023 so in minimal calibration helper I choose multiplying option and gave the value Like CN2*(1.023).
Hope this is the correct way.

On May 6, 2018 2:43 PM, "Sushant Mehan" <sushan...@gmail.com> wrote:

So are your two versions different? If so then yes certainly the results would be different till the time algorithm to compute certain parameters is not changing in the two versions. My second thought is transferring the parameters correctly and rewriting tables if you are manually changing. I hope the relative changes are getting correctly translated. 

On May 6, 2018 5:08 AM, "baba guru" <gururaj...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Sushant,

Thanks for replying

I checked the TxinOut files and there values are changed based on simulation. I also checked all the files after running the best fitted parameters in SWAT CUP and the values of parameter were changed.
But when I used these calibrated parameter values in QSWAT again and compare the Output.std files of SWAT CUP and QSWAT they were different.

So I want to why these output are different......because of versions or is there any other reason??

Ok I 'll read about swatedit.exe in SWAT CUP.

On May 6, 2018 2:05 PM, "Sushant Mehan" <sushan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Rajveer

Question here for you is how you are using the outputs from SWAT CUP? Have you checked your TxtinOut folder after working on SWAT CUP, are the values changed as per best parameterization? See the files. There should not  be any discrepancy. Read about swatedit.exe in SWAT CUP. Check the values. These two can be your best bet for now.

Good Luck !!!

On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 3:12:15 AM UTC-4, Rajveer wrote:

Hello Friends,

I am facing the same problem of output mismatch.

I am using QSWAT 1.3 version and SWAT CUP 5.1.6.2 version.

Could you please tell me are they compatible or not.

If not then how can I resolve this problem.

Please suggest me. I spent lot of time on this but did not get its solution.

Thanking you

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[Sushant Mehan]

The default Rev in SWAT CUP is 635. Which one you are using in QSWAT. Till the time you are giving TxtInOut folders to SWAT CUP it would work well.check out versions the method you wrote below is good. But I still suspect whether your files are rewritten with the changes. 

Go to the files and check if the changes are made from the default to be sure else rewriting part is missing

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[baba guru]

Where can i get information about this version 635?? How would i verify that the version of QSWAT and SWAT-CUP i am using are compatible or not??

The parameter values are changing i checked all the files.

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[Sushant Mehan]

See the version history on SWAT website. Moreover you can run swat.exe in SWAT CUP project.or see the output files generated in SWAT CUP, which would tell you the version. Remember for SWAT CUP you need Textinout folder only. There is no much version compatibility issues with SWAT CUP. You can customize them as per your requirement

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[baba guru]

I ran the swat.exe  in SWAT CUP and it is showing SWAT2015 Rev 637. So is it a different version ??

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[Sushant Mehan]

What your actual SWAT says?

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[baba guru]

I try to run SWAT2012.exe in ArcSWAT but its running so fast i could see only SWAT2015

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[Sushant Mehan]

See output.std file or any output file which tells you about version. 

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[baba guru]

I checked both the output.std files in SWAT-CUP and QSWAT and both having same version that is SWAT2015 Rev 637

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[Sushant Mehan]

I conclude from here that somewhere there is an issue in getting your QSWAT files rewritten? Can you see an mdb file (ACCESS file) for your model. See the parameters you want to change to the desired value (relative, replace) are well represented in the model. 

Thanks & Regards

Sushant Mehan

Agricultural Engineer

Ph.D. Candidate

225 S. University Street

Purdue University

West Lafayette, Indiana-47907

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A man is a creator of his own life !!!  What he believes in he works for it and achieves it !!! Love and respect all you Own and Having Gratitude for everything is MAGIC 

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[baba guru]

Thanks Sushant for your Valuable suggestion. Really thankful to you. I will check and let you know.