DTS-MA from KeyserDemon

[Valhalla]

Hi guys,
I see a whole flood of DTS-MA disks on demonoid from KeyserDemon. The
description says 'Ripped digitally from the SACD release'. Anyone
tried these? Anyone know how they are being done?

Thanks
Glenn

[bobchewie]

thanks...ive seen a death of dts ma disks appear on amazon..my
understanding
was that dts ma spec was 192/24 5.1 but from posts here they can be
96/24 or even 48/24
whuch to me seems a waste od disc space..
they could be analogue transfers like i do, but recorded at 192/24 5.1
and converted using
dts ma suite or a crack of it...then burnt to bluray disks...
that would make sense..havibg said that 192/24 5.1 can be saved as wav
abd even flac
as ive tried that...

[bobchewie]

having said that 'ripped digitally' is odd ..unless its the binary
stream from an oppo deck
as described on this site..in which case it'll be 88.2khz...

On 8 Jan, 23:29, Valhalla <goo...@vallen.id.au> wrote:

[grill]

Afaik they were digitally (DSD -> PCM) ripped with using a modded Oppo
player and with an appropriate number of digital audio cards. The
albums were losslessly transferred to the future-proof blu-ray audio
format containing DTS-HD MA. As I know Blu-ray DTS-HD MA does not
support 88.2 kHz audio that's why an 88.2->96 kHz upsampling was
performed. Keyser will correct me if I'm wrong.

[bobchewie]

didnt know that..no 88.2khz in dts ma? upsampling..whats the point of
that?
only for it to match a format..nothing to be gained from it..
so no new clever sacd rip....its odd because apart from our friend on
here
thers some other people on hydrogegen audio also going on about
some clever sacd ripping process..ive posted the info on here..

[Lokkerman]

The big questions I have on this front is: just how future proof is DTS MA compared to Flac and also how do you play these things when you haven't a BD player? Are there any plug-ins for Foobar or Winamp? Do you know of anyone developing plug-ins?

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[bobchewie]

Well you're going to need a bluray drive thats for sure...
but good question...is sts ma future proof..
and how many formats are there now?
i just came from acoustic sounds site and saw
commercial DXD discs...er how do you play these?
..

On 9 Jan, 11:01, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The big questions I have on this front is: just how future proof is DTS MA
> compared to Flac and also how do you play these things when you haven't a BD
> player? Are there any plug-ins for Foobar or Winamp? Do you know of anyone
> developing plug-ins?
>

[jolson]

Of course you don't need a Blu-ray drive.

These conversions can be burned on a DVD, some on single layer and
some on dual, then you can play it in many (not all) stand-alone Blu-
ray players. But you neither need to burn it nor have a Blu-ray
player, mount the iso and play it on your computer with the DTS
Streamplayer VF posted - plays *absolutely all* variants of DTS
existing.

[Stephen Disney]

Did anyone ever get a full set of links for the streamplayer.  I dislike joining sites for one thing.  Any chance anyone could pass those along?
S

[Lokkerman]

Here's the link I found on Avax: http://avaxhome.ws/software/DTS-HD-Master-Audio-Suite-v2.0.html, shouldn't require any registration to DL.


Jolson
My question is - back to DTS MA - does this mean that this is another standalone application required to support another Sony introduced standard that has another limited shelf life, (remember Sony receivers do not even support multi-channel SACD) or do you know of any plugins for established players such as Foobar and Winamp?

Not being funny but at the mo' I don't see the need to move to BD as a standalone player when I'm happy with my Denon DVD, so I would like to play some of this content via a PC.

[kbeebe]

This is also available at Demonoid....program works great. I also
contacted KeyserDemon to let him know you are interested in his work.
You can get in touch with him through Demonoid, too.
kbeebe762

On Jan 10, 5:21 am, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's the link I found on Avax:http://avaxhome.ws/software/DTS-HD-Master-Audio-Suite-v2.0.html, shouldn't
> require any registration to DL.
>
> Jolson
> My question is - back to DTS MA - does this mean that this is another
> standalone application required to support another Sony introduced standard
> that has another limited shelf life, (remember Sony receivers do not even
> support multi-channel SACD) or do you know of any plugins for established
> players such as Foobar and Winamp?
>
> Not being funny but at the mo' I don't see the need to move to BD as a
> standalone player when I'm happy with my Denon DVD, so I would like to play
> some of this content via a PC.
>

> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 3:42 AM, Stephen Disney <sthunderroc...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > Did anyone ever get a full set of links for the streamplayer.  I dislike
> > joining sites for one thing.  Any chance anyone could pass those along?
> > S
>

> >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[VF]

KeyserDemon, aka Keysersose, is on the hub and has more recently become a
good buddy of mine...

He's told me about these rips and I have referred him to my guide on using
the oppo method for maximum quality.

I'm relieved to have someone else doing digital rips during my inability to
do them myself. Enjoy these Oppo PCM rips for now, guys...I bet blu-ray
isn't the release format of choice for a lot of us though...

And ofc, I haven't downloaded any of his rips (no time/resources to download
at the moment) to see what sort of quality they're like...if they're top
notch (tracks perfectly cut to length etc) then he's spending a lot of time
doing them :)...

[bobchewie]

ok well ive beebn told off now....actually power dvd would read that
wouldnt it?
does ir read virual drives..?

[jolson]

DTS-MA isn't Sony - it's DTS...

On 10 Jan, 11:21, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's the link I found on Avax:http://avaxhome.ws/software/DTS-HD-Master-Audio-Suite-v2.0.html, shouldn't
> require any registration to DL.
>
> Jolson
> My question is - back to DTS MA - does this mean that this is another
> standalone application required to support another Sony introduced standard
> that has another limited shelf life, (remember Sony receivers do not even
> support multi-channel SACD) or do you know of any plugins for established
> players such as Foobar and Winamp?
>
> Not being funny but at the mo' I don't see the need to move to BD as a
> standalone player when I'm happy with my Denon DVD, so I would like to play
> some of this content via a PC.
>

> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 3:42 AM, Stephen Disney <sthunderroc...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Did anyone ever get a full set of links for the streamplayer.  I dislike
> > joining sites for one thing.  Any chance anyone could pass those along?
> > S
>

[Lokkerman]

nevertheless it's only used in BD which is Sony

[grill]

I1ve made a DVDA from one of Keyser's SACD rips, it's on the Hub now.
It sounds fine for me. iZotope RX revealed no clipping or strange
spikes in the spectrum of the first track However, the spectrum seems
quite noisy (?) above 20 kHz to my eyes. Opinion?
http://yfrog.com/elbocellisentimentosacdtrsj

> > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Hide quoted text
> > >-
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -
>
> - Idézett szöveg megjelenítése -

[bobchewie]

i had probs after doing elp brain salad surgery..did all six channels -
made a dts cd from it
then hears dreadful clicks..thought it was my speakers but looked at
samples and saw great spikes
dont know how they crept it...often ive had odd thngs in audtion..
sometimes on play back its like wind rushing sound..not the audio i
recorded.
and afere recording ait redraws and it finf that channel (cen lfe) is
way ot of synch with fl fr
so often ive had to use vegas with audio on w64..then found it would
save as pcm
so had to save as aiff,..then use vlc to convert aiff to pcm..does mlp
encoder load aiff?
hmmmm

On 10 Jan, 16:29, grill <gr...@index.hu> wrote:
> I1ve made a DVDA from one of Keyser's SACD rips, it's on the Hub now.
> It sounds fine for me. iZotope RX revealed no clipping or strange
> spikes in the spectrum of the first track However, the spectrum seems

> quite noisy (?) above 20 kHz to my eyes. Opinion?http://yfrog.com/elbocellisentimentosacdtrsj

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Hidequoted text

[jolson]

I saw some comments on Demonoid about drop-out in rips, haven't
checked myself...

> > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Hide quoted text

[elshagon]

you can of course convert these to mlp, flac or whatever to make them
into dvd-a discs. Just takes a bit of time to do so. Thanks again to
the Keyser for releasing these, a lot of hard to find stuff included!

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Hidequoted text
> > > >-
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[bobchewie]

is there any player that plays dtshd files? since i got the dts mas
proggie ive been playing with it..but what the heck plays
dtshd files?

[Lokkerman]

Elshagon
This actually brings me round to one of my points - just how do we convert DTS-MA to Flac or MLP? Is there a guide anywhere?

[grill]

DTS-HD MA muxed to BD-(audio) can be directly extracted and transcoded
to flac with eac3to utilizing the DTS-HD decoder of ArcSoft TotalMedia
Theatre 2. I use HDBrStreamExtractor GUI for this conversion. I think
eac3 with TMT DTS codec also supports the direct DTS-HD ->flac
transcoding although I've never tried that. Ofc, BD-audio/HD audio
pugins would be the final solution for soft players.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Eac3to/How_to_Use

On jan. 12, 11:05, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Elshagon
> This actually brings me round to one of my points - just how do we convert
> DTS-MA to Flac or MLP? Is there a guide anywhere?
>

> >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[bobchewie]

i knew eac3to had a handle dtshd..ive seen it there....what is neat is
that eac3to converts mlp
it can downsamplle to 44.1khz and create 6 mono wavs to make dts cd...
i see on dts mas an 88.2khz out put for dts stereo cds..our umple pcs
should play but standalones?
my old yamada deck could handle dts and ac3 cds,,never mentioned it in
the manual..thats the thng with these
el cheapo players..they dont coast as much as yer jvc,philips,denon
etc etc but then they arent as fussy either
i used to whinges and moans from the £400 deck brigade how there
precious item couldnt play
region 2 dvd video..yet my cheapo £60 from maplins never complained
and even had a few tricks up its sleeve.
btw a mate spent £30 on a dvd video player..comes complete with dvd
audio built in...

On 12 Jan, 11:21, grill <gr...@index.hu> wrote:
> DTS-HD MA muxed to BD-(audio) can be directly extracted and transcoded
> to flac with eac3to utilizing the DTS-HD decoder of ArcSoft TotalMedia
> Theatre 2. I use HDBrStreamExtractor GUI for this conversion. I think
> eac3 with TMT DTS codec also supports the direct DTS-HD ->flac
> transcoding although I've never tried that. Ofc, BD-audio/HD audio

> pugins would be the final solution for soft players.http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Eac3to/How_to_Use

> > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[Joe A]

IIRC it was also used on HD-DVD. And for the record, BD is more than
just Sony. But I understand your sentiment.

I also think it's worth pointing out, someone asked about future-
proofing. I believe that anything not compatible with DTS HD-MA will
pull out the core DTS stream. DTS HD-MA has the core conventional DTS
plus an enhancement layer on top of it.

On Jan 10, 10:55 am, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> nevertheless it's only used in BD which is Sony
>

[Lokkerman]

Yes reading about it it looks like DTS have pulled off a neat trick; compliments to DTS.
Does anyone know what the packing size is compared to FLAC and MLP?

My sentiments about Sony, and I have numerous products by them, is that they don't support integration of their own technology, when things move on after a year or so. SACD being a case in point. It won't play back more than stereo in Sony HDMI receivers.

[bobchewie]

I rechecked the specs of DTS MA its not 192/24 5.1 as I thought in
fact it follows the convention of
mlp ie 192/24 in 2.0 ie stereo..i think the bit rate in 24mbps.. so
its quite high...but i do know that WAV and FLAC and
DSD DFF do support 192/24 5.1` ie six channel..with wav being the
biggest filesize i think..flac a bit smaller..not sure about
dff filesize..and what with DXD and wav at 352.8khz .....vlc plays
back 192/24 6 channel flac and also 192/24 6 channel wav..

On 12 Jan, 22:48, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes reading about it it looks like DTS have pulled off a neat trick;
> compliments to DTS.
> Does anyone know what the packing size is compared to FLAC and MLP?
>
> My sentiments about Sony, and I have numerous products by them, is that they
> don't support integration of their own technology, when things move on after
> a year or so. SACD being a case in point. It won't play back more than
> stereo in Sony HDMI receivers.
>

[grill]

DTS-HD MA does support 24/192 5.1. A musical example is The Nordic
Sound from 2L.
http://www.2l.no/files/2L-RR1-SABD_eBook.pdf

> > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[bobchewie]

oh ok grill, i was just reading it frrom dts own pdf docs thats
all...is it 24 mbps too? no wonder yiu nedd discspace
still nice to see flac supports 192/24 5.1 as well..and wav (wv woyuld
support anythng you care to throw at it really)
doesnt quick time or real have some kind of mulit channel 18 chaanels
or somethng silly??
oh yeah dsd diff too...btw if you config the dff foobar plugin for 192
it wil playback but it does glitch a bit
flac 192/24 doesnt...maybe its the dff plugin need tweaking.....hey
yoy never know before long standalone players might
support flac mc playback look what happned to divX .unless of course
mr dolby puts a block on that..i wouldnt put it past them
but it might happen falc.wma pro, ogg,...so i'm still looking for an
avalaible surcode dts hd ,and a player for dtshd files...

On Jan 17, 8:34 pm, grill <gr...@index.hu> wrote:
> DTS-HD MA does support 24/192 5.1. A musical example is The Nordic

> Sound from 2L.http://www.2l.no/files/2L-RR1-SABD_eBook.pdf

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[bobchewie]

i see in that link its also 5.1 lpcm 192/24..so is it recorded DXD at
352.8khz 24bit..then downsampled
to 192/24? is the DXD 352.8khz also 5.1??

On Jan 17, 8:34 pm, grill <gr...@index.hu> wrote:

> DTS-HD MA does support 24/192 5.1. A musical example is The Nordic

> Sound from 2L.http://www.2l.no/files/2L-RR1-SABD_eBook.pdf

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[jolson]

I think DXD is 352.8/32bit float.

[bobchewie]

dumb question what is 'float' ?
ok, next dts streamplayer..does that come with dts mas?
and thats will play dtshd files...

[Lokkerman]

Bob
Enjoy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754-2008

[bobchewie]

ok guys i found the dts 96/24 encode on tht dts mas app ok..took a
while..saves as cpt file...bit puzzled as i thought
power dvd played cpt ot dts hd cpt files..ok now in this forum it
says that theres a 'streamplayer' in the dts mas app..
i can see 'stream tools' app ok..but no player..am i missing
something? is this the dtshd fileplayer? thats plays dts, cpt etc?

On 19 Jan, 13:13, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob
> Enjoy:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754-2008
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[bobchewie]

ok i was surprised to the streamplayer not inclided in dts mas....but
ive pulled streamplayer down separately but
forgotten how to to do the guys password that double ss it dont
accept copy n paste...

> ...
>
> read more »

[Erez]

I have downloaded so far a few of the DTS regular DVDs,
They fit perfectly in my car DVD,
However - I do not know if this is only on the regular DTS or also on
the DTS MA-
But the conversion seems to be... not good.
I cannot put my finger on it, but in the high frequencies it seems to
lack detail and sound digital,
Sort of reminds me of the old wavs that used to come with old MS
windows (those 8bit "tada!" etc) with digital hiss and strange "dirty"
harmonics that follow each note.
I am exaggerating now, but take for example high guitar or organ notes
and vocals - some of it sounds almost like midi.
Anyone else heard this? could be only on the DTS DVD and not MA?

(I have downloaded the following, all have this problem:
Dire Straits - Brother In Arms DTS DVD
David Bowie - Ziggy Stardust DTS DVD
Deep Purple - Machine Head DTS DVD
Cardigans - Long Gone Before Daylight DTS
Elvis Costello - North DTS DVD
Alice In Chains - Greatest HitsDTS DVD)

[Lokkerman]

Could this be the "standard" DTS sound that you are listening to? To me DTS nearly (but for some odd reason not always - perhaps due to the original encoding), sounds like listening to MP3, i.e.  a squashed mid, wooliness, nasality at times, a vague ringing and also a phasey, flangey sound.
 I think these may be the artifacts of the lossy compression used in standard DTS. Pity 80% of the population doesn't recognise this.
On the point of encoding, some of the commercial DTS CDs, are better sounding; perhaps because they used showcase techniques?
I haven't heard MA yet so can't comment on MA.

[bobchewie]

i have the dire straits dvd audio/video i donloaded..and it sounds
great in surround
the guitar parts have a meatl twang to them..in mlp...not sure about
the dts video yet
in fact..the iso is 4.6gb so dual layer i thnk dvd fab is needed to
burn. but im out of duaL
layer blanks...i was thnk og reading the iso into and iso app and
deleting the video_ts directory
and resaving the iso with just audio_ts but the iso app was just trial
ware..
but i also tried dragging the audio_ts directory from within the iso
app and copyingit to
the hard drive so it could be burnt with gear pro..as dvd audio...
the ziggy stardust dts dvd..where di you get that? the reason i asked
was that
in converted the sacd version of this to dvd audio..is their a legit
dts dvd of ziggy
then? ..btw ive pulled dts streamplayer as it didnt come with the **
version of dts mas for some reason
but its this password for the rar...i did it before (that german
double s) but it wont accept
copy and paste..does anyone have a dts hd streamplayer i could borrow?

On 20 Jan, 08:50, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Could this be the "standard" DTS sound that you are listening to? To me DTS
> nearly (but for some odd reason not always - perhaps due to the original
> encoding), sounds like listening to MP3, i.e.  a squashed mid, wooliness,
> nasality at times, a vague ringing and also a phasey, flangey sound.
>  I think these may be the artifacts of the lossy compression used in
> standard DTS. Pity 80% of the population doesn't recognise this.
> On the point of encoding, some of the commercial DTS CDs, are better
> sounding; perhaps because they used showcase techniques?
> I haven't heard MA yet so can't comment on MA.
>

[bobchewie]

oh preferably dts hd streamplayer thats not passworded too..thanks

[RW]

Bob wrote:
>> in fact..the iso is 4.6gb so dual layer i thnk <<

Bob, a 4.6GB ISO should fit on a standard DVD, they are 4.7GB. Also,
"float" is a numeric type that is used in various databases. It is
short for "floating point". Other numeric types are Int (Integer),
Double, etc. Take a look at a SQL Server manual and all will be
explained to you...

Best Wishes,

-RW-

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en- Hide quoted text -

[bobchewie]

i thkn DVDs are really 4.3gb despite the 4.7gb label..not sure if it +
or -

> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Hide quoted text -

[bobchewie]

BTW how do you do that pw for sts streamplayer?

On 20 Jan, 14:41, RW <rlwainwri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Hide quoted text -

[Erez]

> i have the dire straits dvd audio/video i donloaded..and it sounds
> great in surround
> the guitar parts have a meatl twang to them..in mlp...not sure about
> the dts video yet
> in fact..the iso is 4.6gb so dual layer i thnk dvd fab is needed to
> burn. but im out of duaL

No, I was refering to the keyserdemon conversion... I got to it by
clicking his username.
It is regular DTS only, no DVDA.

> the ziggy stardust dts dvd..where di you get that?  

Got it in the same place - I have 2 conversions of this, one is DTS CD
and the other SACD->DTS DVD
I converted the DTS-CD version (when I couldnt find the other) and it
sounds way better and fuller than the keyserdemon version -
So I do not put the blame on the DTS format for the weird artefacts
(if anything, they should be more audible on a DTS that was converted
from DTS CD...)

[matthemeon]

I can confirm that the Pink Floyd - DSOTM, DTS MA and possibly Oasis -
What's the story, DTS MA are also affected by this. Pink floyd is
especially noticeable on track 5 during the piano parts.

I wonder if the bit depth is converting properly from DSD to PCM or
possibly on the upsample to 96k?

A great sounding mix when the low level quantization isn't heard and
will look forward to checking out more of these releases once this
issue is resolved.

On Jan 20, 3:26 am, Erez <flytom...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have downloaded so far a few of the DTS regular DVDs,
> They fit perfectly in my car DVD,
> However - I do not know if this is only on the regular DTS or also on
> the DTS MA-
> But the conversion seems to be... not good.
> I cannot put my finger on it, but in the high frequencies it seems to
> lack detail and sound digital,
> Sort of reminds me of the old wavs that used to come with old MS
> windows (those 8bit "tada!" etc) with digital hiss and strange "dirty"
> harmonics that follow each note.
> I am exaggerating now, but take for example high guitar or organ notes
> and vocals - some of it sounds almost like midi.
> Anyone else heard this? could be only on the DTS DVD and not MA?
>
> (I have downloaded the following, all have this problem:

>  DireStraits- Brother In Arms DTS DVD

[Erez]

Ha! so I wasnt dreaming :)
I knew someone with some technical knowledge could pinpoint the cause
for this...

> > Alice In Chains - Greatest HitsDTS DVD)- Hide quoted text -

[Andrew Hutchison]

OK...so, I didn't want to say anything 'cause I know this project is
important to KeyserDemon and respect the man and his work - it's a massive
project to undertake...and I admire the idea behind his work - archiving his
SACD's on a "future proof" format, but I haven't been able to keep any of
his conversions due to the "ringing" or "midi" sound as Erez called it. It's
particularly noticeable on sections where a sole instrument plays on it's
own. I downloaded Elton John - Elton John and Derek and the Dominoes -
Layla, and they both have these issues. I think it must be either the
upsampling to 96khz, or upon converting the PCM to DTS-HD Master Audio,
because as we've heard from VF's Oppo PCM's conversions, the ringing isn't
there when left at 88.2khz. Additionally, both conversions that I downloaded
have had digital disturbances, akin to a loud "pop" on a vinyl record, which
when I first heard scared the crap out of me. I hope KeyserDemon get's these
issues sorted out, and hasn't gone too far into his project to turn back and
get it right!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erez" <flyt...@gmail.com>
To: "SurroundSound" <surrou...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 5:49 PM
Subject: [SurroundSound] Re: DTS-MA from KeyserDemon

[Lokkerman]

I said this last year when some of these conversions were being put onto the 'noid. Wouldn't it have been better to realse these as FLAC and then convert to DTS MA? At least it would've been possible to see where the problems lie. Don't read this as " I told you so" - merely pointing out that with newer codecs it takes a while to get familiar and get rid of the bugs.
Hopefully now with the new tranche of VF's rips this will not happen as everyone is first cutting them to FLAC.

[Cheezmo]

I had downmixed Keyser's War of the Worlds to help fond rhe real track
points and heard some odd things in the downmix that made me wonder if
the 6 tracks weren't exactly time synched. No idea what his method
is, but that would be another potential error to cause some
strangeness that might really stand out on a solo instrument coming
from more than one channel.

On Feb 10, 2010, at 2:54 AM, "Andrew Hutchison" <anhut...@optusnet.com.au

[yorama]

Thanks KeyserDemon for the effort. I confirm the low level
quantization problem on the DTS transfers. Best example is Carole
King, piano intro sounds 8bit, but some of the titles sound real good
(Alice in Chains, low level?, not much of that in the title). Hope you
get it fixed.

[Keyser]

Interesting discussion

Unfortunately I'm finished with the discs I own

I have no idea what may be causing the 'midi' sound..

There really arent many variables in the process

perhaps if DTS-MA ever adds support for 88.2 I could try again and
compare or I could try and record the waves at 88.2 and then use
another program (like R8Brain Pro) to convert to 96khz..

anyways if there is a solution I'm not opposed to doing them again..

KS

On Feb 10, 3:54 am, "Andrew Hutchison" <anhutchi...@optusnet.com.au>
wrote:

> >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en- Hide quoted text -

[Keyser Sose]

this is what makes this such a mystery - many albums are fine - some not

everything I did was always the same process..

one pc was dedicated to capturing the monos from the player

 

from here I used 2 PC's to dts-ma (and dts for DVD) and then AudioMuxer

 

it's conceivable one PC caused the problem but have no idea

one of these 2 PC's I just switched to Windows 7 and I could retry the Carole King on it

it was the 1st song as your example??

 

 

 

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--------

Keyser

[Lokkerman]

Keyser
Thanks for all your efforts on this there is obviously a real demand and you must have put in a lot of effort.
Could I make a suggestion please?
Do you have the Rips in the RAW state as with VF?
If So put them on the hub and let the guys have a go at cutting them again. A problem shared is a problem halved. I'm sure that in a few days we will have nailed all the issues and you will have your content in the format that you want too...
Cheers
Lokks

[yorama]

"or I could try and record the waves at 88.2 and then use
another program (like R8Brain Pro) to convert to 96khz.. "

That would have been my choice forced to convert, R8 does a decent
job. In any case offline bitrate/samplerate conversion is always
better than realtime down/up conversion. Capture native, and then do
your best with software (actually, it is even better not to do
anything at all).

I did a quick spot check for some of the DTS titles, quick and dirty
headphone assessment, low level aliasing is apparent on all of them
and also occasional ticks. Some examples, as before mentioned the
piano intro for song 1 Carole King, Tumbleweed Connection in the intro
of Come down in time you can hear ringing with the harp playing,
aliasing and ticks at the start of Sweet Emotion - Toys in the attic
(it's a distorted vocoder effect but it should be smoother), just a
few. It is apparent mostly at the start of songs that build up and
during quiet passages but it exist at some level also in the loud
parts, just less audible.

Thanks again.

[Lokkerman]

Let me raise a fundamental question who has ABX'd DTS MA from this codec?

--

[Richard]

I've been following this thread as well as i can, being a non Blu-ray owner, and i hope you don't mind me asking a question.

 

It has been pt forward that the issue may be caused by the files being up sampled from 88.2 to 96Khz so it can be DTS-MA encoded.

 

So, why not just burn the files as they are to a DVD-A?  or is it not that simple?

 

OD

[Keyser Sose]

I didnt keep any of the raw 96khz waves

I just recorded the 1st track of Carole King and I'll put these 6 waves in my share in the morning - my share drive is at the office

[Keyser Sose]

I hope it's as simple as this... I also have Sony SF if this is any better than R8

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--------

Keyser

[Keyser Sose]

couple of reasons

I used to do all my stuff in DVD-A and when the DTS-MA encoder arrived I found it to be superior to MLP although in theory they are both lossless and should sound the same

2nd- I have deliberately gone to BD Audio - *Maybe* when my flagship BD player dies no one (including OPPO) will still be offering DVD-A support..pretty sure I can buy another good BD player then.. 

--
--------

Keyser

[Richard]

 

couple of reasons

I used to do all my stuff in DVD-A and when the DTS-MA encoder arrived I found it to be superior to MLP although in theory they are both lossless and should sound the same

 

Interesting, is that the general opinion and has there been any tests ?

2nd- I have deliberately gone to BD Audio - *Maybe* when my flagship BD player dies no one (including OPPO) will still be offering DVD-A support..pretty sure I can buy another good BD player then.. 

Well there are many commercial DVD-A's out there, and they are still being released, a are SACD's so i'd imagine there would be support for some time to come.

 

OD

[Keyser Sose]

On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Richard <zoan...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

 

 

couple of reasons

I used to do all my stuff in DVD-A and when the DTS-MA encoder arrived I found it to be superior to MLP although in theory they are both lossless and should sound the same

 

Interesting, is that the general opinion and has there been any tests ?

 

no tests I am aware of - seems to be consensus among the SBU community - other minor pluses of using DTS-MA which are core DTS stream for those who dont have a BR player - and soon all will have one whether it's PC based or standalone - they are pretty cheap now

 

2nd- I have deliberately gone to BD Audio - *Maybe* when my flagship BD player dies no one (including OPPO) will still be offering DVD-A support..pretty sure I can buy another good BD player then.. 

Well there are many commercial DVD-A's out there, and they are still being released, a are SACD's so i'd imagine there would be support for some time to come.

 

could be but having come from the quad days back in the 70's I dont want to count how many formats I have owned and how many of these still exist today...??

DVD-A and SACD are such small niches and declining so it is hard to justify supporting these formats for the player manufacturers - even Sony the inventor drops SACD support!! all to save maybe $10 per player.. I'm just hedging my bets here..

--
--------

Keyser

[Erez]

The problem is not in the DTS-HD specifically, as I encountered it in
the DTS DVD.
Also, as said above, it is not apparent on all (my bad, I wrote the
Alice in chains even though it is less? noticable there)
Hope you find the root cause for this, as it is a great project
(almost of historic proportions? who knows how long our SACDs players
and discs would last)

> Keyser- Hide quoted text -

[jolson]

Neil Wilkes (who mastered the latest King Crimson DVD-Audio:s) find
the DTS-MA encoder the best thing since powdered milk and he converts
all his music at home to DTS-MA and plays it using the DTS-MA
Streamplayer (which may even be better than powdered milk). Good
enough for me on the quality of the DTS-MA encoder/decoders, but I
don't know if there's any audible difference to MLP decoded music - I
myself think they're equal.

But the ratio of DTS-MA encoded Blu-rays compared to MLP encoded DVD-
A's lately has to be 100:1... Meridian, who invented DVD-Audio, no
longer supports it and their latest DVD players no longer plays DVD-
Audio (must be too high license fees... ...to Meridian...)

On 11 Feb, 01:27, "Richard" <zoanne...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>   couple of reasons
>   I used to do all my stuff in DVD-A and when the DTS-MA encoder arrived I found it to be superior to MLP although in theory they are both lossless and should sound the same
>
>   Interesting, is that the general opinion and has there been any tests ?
>   2nd- I have deliberately gone to BD Audio - *Maybe* when my flagship BD player dies no one (including OPPO) will still be offering DVD-A support..pretty sure I can buy another good BD player then..
>
>   Well there are many commercial DVD-A's out there, and they are still being released, a are SACD's so i'd imagine there would be support for some time to come.
>
>   OD
>

>       For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en

>
>     --
>     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "SurroundSound" group.
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[VF]

Sheesh, gotta get me some of that powdered milk....

Ironically, Dolby owns MLP now (they bought it in order to rebrand it as
Dolby TrueHD for the Blu-ray format ;)), so Meridian would have to pay
Dolby, lol.

-----Original Message-----
From: surrou...@googlegroups.com [mailto:surrou...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of jolson
Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2010 7:16 AM
To: SurroundSound
Subject: [SurroundSound] Re: DTS-MA from KeyserDemon

[jolson]

Yes, very small time synch problems is one thing that some people
hardly notice while it destroys the listening experience for other
people - something that could easily get through a rather complicated
process like this. If it's a glitch with sound card synching, a
mistake done when combining the files, rounding off errors when
converting to 96kHz - or something else - I don't know...

On 10 Feb, 14:58, Cheezmo <chee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had downmixed Keyser's War of the Worlds to help fond rhe real track  
> points and heard some odd things in the downmix that made me wonder if  
> the 6 tracks weren't exactly time synched.  No idea what his method  
> is, but that would be another potential error to cause some  
> strangeness that might really stand out on a solo instrument coming  
> from more than one channel.
>

> On Feb 10, 2010, at 2:54 AM, "Andrew Hutchison" <anhutchi...@optusnet.com.au

>
>  > wrote:
> > OK...so, I didn't want to say anything 'cause I know this project is  
> > important to KeyserDemon and respect the man and his work - it's a  
> > massive project to undertake...and I admire the idea behind his work  
> > - archiving his SACD's on a "future proof" format, but I haven't  
> > been able to keep any of his conversions due to the "ringing" or  
> > "midi" sound as Erez called it. It's particularly noticeable on  
> > sections where a sole instrument plays on it's own. I downloaded  
> > Elton John - Elton John and Derek and the Dominoes - Layla, and they  
> > both have these issues. I think it must be either the upsampling to  
> > 96khz, or upon converting the PCM to DTS-HD Master Audio, because as  
> > we've heard from VF's Oppo PCM's conversions, the ringing isn't  
> > there when left at 88.2khz. Additionally, both conversions that I  
> > downloaded have had digital disturbances, akin to a loud "pop" on a  
> > vinyl record, which when I first heard scared the crap out of me. I  
> > hope KeyserDemon get's these issues sorted out, and hasn't gone too  
> > far into his project to turn back and get it right!
>

> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erez" <flytom...@gmail.com>

> >> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en

[grill]

Keyser,
Could you also please re-record the first mch track of Genesis Abacab
to 24/88.2 wavs? I found differences between your rip and that of VF
in the wav spectra. Your rip seems to be quite noisier above 20 kHz
than VF's. Both rips are heavily clipped, interestingly your rip is at
-1dB while VF's at 0 dB. I'll show these differences as I get home
this evening. I'd like to figure out what caused these differences.
There could be many factors like the DSD->PCM ripping process itself,
88.2->96 upsampling, WAV->DTS-HD MA encoding, DTS-HD MA->WAV
decoding.I can do an experiment on VF's rip to upsample and convert it
to BDA DTS-HD MA and back to wav and see the effect of this process to
the wav spectra. Hovewer, your re-rip may sort out this problem faster
imo.

On febr. 11, 01:07, Keyser Sose <mrkeysers...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didnt keep any of the raw 96khz waves
> I just recorded the 1st track of Carole King and I'll put these 6 waves in
> my share in the morning - my share drive is at the office
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Keyser
> > Thanks for all your efforts on this there is obviously a real demand and
> > you must have put in a lot of effort.
> > Could I make a suggestion please?
> > Do you have the Rips in the RAW state as with VF?
> > If So put them on the hub and let the guys have a go at cutting them again.
> > A problem shared is a problem halved. I'm sure that in a few days we will
> > have nailed all the issues and you will have your content in the format that
> > you want too...
> > Cheers
> > Lokks
>

> >   On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Keyser Sose <mrkeysers...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>   this is what makes this such a mystery - many albums are fine - some
> >> not
> >> everything I did was always the same process..
> >> one pc was dedicated to capturing the monos from the player
>
> >> from here I used 2 PC's to dts-ma (and dts for DVD) and then AudioMuxer
>
> >> it's conceivable one PC caused the problem but have no idea
> >> one of these 2 PC's I just switched to Windows 7 and I could retry the
> >> Carole King on it
> >> it was the 1st song as your example??
>

> Keyser- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -
>
> - Idézett szöveg megjelenítése -

[Lokkerman]

let me also throw in a curved ball; DAC calibration, this could explain some of the RAW anomalies; the DACs are still used to convert from DSD to PCM, I seem to recall that this can be checked on the Oppo but don't ask me more as it's lost in the brain fade....

[Keyser Sose]

I didnt see this in time

I recorded the 1st track of the Carole King

the 88.2 monos are in my share under:

0Digital SACD to BDA\0Tests\Carole King

Let me know if you still want 1st track of Abacab

[grill]

Yes, it would be most helpful for me if you could re-record the first
track of Abacab, too. Your raw rip would serve me an absolute
reference for the comparison I'm intending to make. It could be
figured out whether or not the differences referred in my previous
post originated from the DSD to PCM transfers. This comparison may
help me on the decision
if which multichannel digital rip from the two available ones should
be converted to DVDA. The reason of my hesitation is that the
HiResOrNothing Abacab mch rip has a 0.1 sec disc skip (audio drop out)
in the first track what I cannot fix inaudibly (I'm not a sound
engineer or a guru in audio editing). If your raw rip looks similar to
that of VF then I can use this re-ripped first track for finalizing my
Abacab transfer (images and layouts for the DVDA custom menu are
already done :-)

[Keyser Sose]

ok will do..

[grill]

Here are the spectrogram and the spectrum of the left channel wav
decoded from Keyser's Genesis Abacab BDA DTS-HD MA transfer:
http://yfrog.com/0ykeyserlsgj
http://yfrog.com/0ykeyserlsrj
And the corresponding spectra of the HiResOrNothing rip:
http://yfrog.com/j8vflsgj
http://yfrog.com/49vflsrj

> > - Idézett szöveg megjelenítése -- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[Lokkerman]

Clearly there is a filter at play here on the VF version and not on the Keyser version. Now there should be a brick wall around 30KHz to stop out of band spuriae above 44k2. Interestingly on the VF variant the roll-off looks like the filter is set at 22k1, which is the CD roll-off point (15dB roll). There appears to be no roll-off on the Keyser response.
Grill  - if you cast your mind back this is similar to what I detected on certain analogue rips and what I could not overcome on my Pioneer DV-565A. With certain AL rips when played back on some DACs with filters switched out (i.e. on a PC) the effect caused a hiss on the sound.
Now to complicate matters, I postulate that if you take Keysers' recording and play it back on a DVD/SACD player, the inherant filter will take this out. I bet that you could do another trace to prove this theory.(From the analogue outs.)
Question is how is the filter switched on and off, if it is that, in the Oppo. Also I would also suggest that it is a DSP filter therefore it will be set by the player's firmware. We need an Oppo specialist who can tell us. Last time, in the summer when I visited this, this piece of FW had not been cracked.
Also remember the clipping is an SACD/Oppo artifact.

[grill]

Thanks Lokks for your input. Yes, I remember you mentioned this hiss
before. I'm not a maniac wav "spectrogrammer" and I can't recall any
of the wav spectra from analog SACD rips which was similar to Keyser's
one. Could you name an analog SACD rip which I may have and where you
heard that hiiss? I can check its spectrum to prove this no filter-
hiss theory.

> >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[grill]

'Also remember the clipping is an SACD/Oppo artifact. '

Yes, I know this since VF revealed it in this group. The interesting
thing for me that the two rips have clipping at different dBs.

On febr. 11, 22:36, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[Lokkerman]

The one on which it was most apparent was October Road by James Taylor - If needs be I may have some RS links with some tracks on it as I Think I involved Desertrat at the time, who was interested in trying to identify the issue.
The clipping at different dBs also points to DSPs, my concern is within the digital domain particularly with players is that because the DSP is on-board, you could in fact tailor a sound to get a certain sonic signature (i.e.not transparent) and we also do not know what it takes to switch them (DSPs) on/off.

[ArnoldLayne]

If DSP is intervening, my first guess would be that bass management or
equalizing is on. A DV980H with appropriate firmware is capable of
doing BM on sources up to 96khz. But we don't know if it has to
downsample to do this.

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Idézett szöveg

> > elrejtése -
>
> > > - Idézett szöveg megjelenítése -
>
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> >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en- Ocultar texto de la cita -
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> - Mostrar texto de la cita -

[Lokkerman]

Arn
Grill and myself just had an hour long PM about this - he has now got a number of things he is going to look into. (after work) My initial thoughts are that if this is a bandpass filter problem then by introducing a DSP bandpass which I think can be done in Izotope (need help here) we may be able to at least check that this is the problem - I suggest a brickwall set at 22k1hz - which looks like the filter setting for VF's work, which i think was set automatically by the unit.
Cheers
Lokks

[grill]

Yes, hopefully we have been getting closer to the cause and the
solution of this problem. I can confirm that Keyser's WAV->BD DTS-HD
MA conversion method has no significant effect on the wav spectrum.
Last night I checked this converting VF's rip and got back the
original spectrum. Now I'm waiting for Keyser's new raw rip from
track1 of Abacab to see the spectra of his original wav files. I
expect they will look similar to the decoded ones. Lokkerman suggested
to apply a bandpass filter to Keyser rips setting the bandpass as 22k1
with a 6db roll off 1st order which should drop 12db by about 30k.
This way if we get a spectrum similar to VF's then we can indirectly
prove the DSP hypothesis and give an advice how to adjust these rips
regarding proper filtering.

On febr. 12, 01:52, Lokkerman <phil.steep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arn
> Grill and myself just had an hour long PM about this - he has now got a
> number of things he is going to look into. (after work) My initial thoughts
> are that if this is a bandpass filter problem then by introducing a DSP
> bandpass which I think can be done in Izotope (need help here) we may be
> able to at least check that this is the problem - I suggest a brickwall set
> at 22k1hz - which looks like the filter setting for VF's work, which i think
> was set automatically by the unit.
> Cheers
> Lokks
>

> > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Idézett<http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Id%C3%A9zett>szöveg

> > > > elrejtése -
>
> > > > > - Idézett szöveg megjelenítése -
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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> > > > "SurroundSound" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to Surrou...@googlegroups.com
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> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound?hl=en-Ocultar
>
> ...
>
> tovább »- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[grill]

BTW, has any of you seen a proof that wav -> BD DTS-HD MA -> wav
transfer is lossless using the Encoder Suite and ArcSoft DTS decoder
with eac3to? If not so then this can be easily checked. To this end do
you know of a simple method for comparing wavs sample by sample? I
know Exact Audio Copy has a tool for this sort of comparison but afaik
it is dedicated only for 16/44.1 (CD) wav files. Do wav editors have
such a function?

[Keyser Sose]

Grill:

Just added the 6 Abacab monos to my share

near top of my directories under 0Tests  folder

[grill]

I can confirm that the following audio transfer is lossless: wav + DTS-
HD ES -> DTS-HD MA + AudioMuxer -> BD-A + eac3to + Arcsoft DTS decoder
-> wav.
I compared the original wav with the transferred one using Sound Forge
Paste Special / Mix - Invert data option. When I mixed the two
synchronized wav files this way I got a digital silence (flatline).

[grill]

Thanks Keyser. The wav spectrum of your raw rip is practically
identical with the one I posted in this thread earlier. It seems that
no brick wall filter is working in your ripping process so significant
quantities of high-frequency spuriae are present above 20kHz.
Unfortunately I could not setup a filter in Izotope RX and in Audition
to convert the wav spectrum similar to VF's. I guess it is possible
but I'm not educated enough in this field.

> > > > downsample to do this.- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -

[Lokkerman]

Grill
not been on the hub tonight as family night but looks like some really good work done here - well done and thx
next stop how do we knock together a bandpass filter in DSP?
Surely someone of our crew [Help please] will know how to do this without spending a week on the manuals
cheers
Lokks