foobar and SACD-Rs

[Peter Cawthron]

Hello Gents,

 

I don’t really use physical discs anymore but today I burnt my first SACD-R and played it successfully on my Oppo DV-980H with recommended firmware. A proof of concept, really.

 

In foobar I can play the source SACD-R ISO image. But can someone explain what sampling rate is being used where in my scenario, as follows:

 

Windows 7 SP1 (32-bit)

foobar  v1.1.11

foo_input_sacd 0.4.5 (Super Audio CD Decoder plugin)

Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe (analogue out, set to 192kHz)

 

Using a 35-track Peter Gabriel SACD-R ISO image foobar gives the tracks properties as:

 

Sampling Rate: 2822400 Hz

Channels: 2

Bits Per Sample: 24

Codec: DST64

Encoding:  lossless

 

But in the bottom left foobar says ‘DST64 3xxxkbps 44100 Hz stereo’ with the bit rate being variable, roughly in the range 3200 kbps – 3600 kbps.

 

So what sampling rate is being used  where?

 

I bought the Xonar because of the marketing puff about a ‘Protected Audio Path’ (PAP) in Windows and it being the only card to be capable of 7.1 LPCM from Blu-Ray. At the time Auzentech were delaying and delaying again the launch of a similar card. I must admit I have not really followed developments since I got the Xonar a couple or more years ago.

 

P.

[ROBERT COOGAN]

Hi Peter
 
Assuming you have the latest version and components of Foobar, you can see/change the bitrate for SACD playback via the SACD tab after selecting properties (control P).
 

---

From: peter_c...@yahoo.co.uk
To: surrou...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [SurroundSound] foobar and SACD-Rs
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:23:27 +0000

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[ROBERT COOGAN]

Another thought that has occurred to me is that this depends also on how you are conencted to your amp. If you are using analogue connections it depends on the DAC you are using. If you are using an SPDIF connection then the bitrate will be automatically set to 48khz I believe.
 

---

From: bobc...@hotmail.com
To: surrou...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [SurroundSound] foobar and SACD-Rs
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:13:09 +0000

[Marktherob2005]

Hi Peter,

A bit off topic but ... I have an oppo 981HD and it plays only SACD
not SACD-R but my sony s380 does. Did you get your firmware from oppo
or a 3rd party.

BTW when I listen to and SACD the OPPO the bit rate shows as 88k and
on the sony it shows as 176k exactly double.

On Feb 15, 6:23 pm, "Peter Cawthron" <peter_cawth...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> Hello Gents,
>
> I don't really use physical discs anymore but today I burnt my first SACD-R
> and played it successfully on my Oppo DV-980H with recommended firmware. A
> proof of concept, really.
>
> In foobar I can play the source SACD-R ISO image. But can someone explain
> what sampling rate is being used where in my scenario, as follows:
>
> Windows 7 SP1 (32-bit)
>
> foobar  v1.1.11
>
> foo_input_sacd 0.4.5 (Super Audio CD Decoder plugin)
>
> Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe (analogue out, set to 192kHz)
>
> Using a 35-track Peter Gabriel SACD-R ISO image foobar gives the tracks
> properties as:
>
> Sampling Rate: 2822400 Hz
>
> Channels: 2
>
> Bits Per Sample: 24
>
> Codec: DST64
>
> Encoding:  lossless
>
> But in the bottom left foobar says 'DST64 3xxxkbps 44100 Hz stereo' with the

> bit rate being variable, roughly in the range 3200 kbps - 3600 kbps.

[Marktherob2005]

I forgot to mention I use HDMI for both.

[Peter Cawthron]

I found it via this group. See:

http://groups.google.com/group/surroundsound/browse_thread/thread/2d342fc1ea
795dc1

P.

-----Original Message-----
From: surrou...@googlegroups.com [mailto:surrou...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Marktherob2005
Sent: 16 February 2012 13:53
To: SurroundSound
Subject: [SurroundSound] Re: foobar and SACD-Rs

... I have an oppo 981HD and it plays only SACD not SACD-R .... Did you get

[realafrica]

Peter in the scenario you describe above you will find that your
settings in foobar are to play 44.1 so you get 44.1 out put.
You need to find the right place in foo to change this to something
more appropriate for you.

Open foo.
On the Library tab left click and select Configure, now scroll down
the left pane to find 'SACD'.....left click this and set with:
ASIO Driver mode = PCM (As you are not using a DSD sound card)
PCM volume = +0dB
PCM Samplerate = either 88200 (or 176400 if you think the album you
are playing has music up there)
DSD"PCM Mode = Multistage (Floating-point)
Preferable area = to show you in foo the 5.1 only track or the stereo
only
Edited Master Playback = tick/check selected

On Feb 16, 2:09 pm, "Peter Cawthron" <peter_cawth...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> I found it via this group. See:
>

> http://groups.google.com/group/surroundsound/browse_thread/thread/2d3...

[August Bleed]

If you are using an HDMI sound card and a receiver that does DSD can you not output pure DSD or is this only for those with DSD DACs via USB and/or Firewire?  I am excited about these developments but it seems the only way to utilize these solutions is to have a usb DAC which leaves out the multichannel folks and those who aren't into converted DSD to PCM.  I haven't ever really been all that impressed with generic results from conversions done outside the 'studio' so to speak.  Even then they seem lacking the intricacies of their pure DSD counterparts (even if the receiver only does a so so job or even converted to PCM internally--mine claims to do pure DSD and it sounds different when PCM is output but I cant be sure there isn't an internal conversion going on anyway.  At any rate has anyone found anything useful for AVR DSD reproduction via foobar or anything else?

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--
August
Bleed, Inc.
Selling Art Is Tying Your Ego To a Leash And Walking It Like a Dog

[realafrica]

You would need a Mytek sound card for the DSD they are rather
expensive.

[August Bleed]

Thats what I thought and why I asked.  So the folks using these are only getting stereo playback anyway correct?  Or is it similar to bitstreaming whereby the the DSD is sent similarly to DTS over spdif to get multichannel where you'd previously only have 2 chan support?  I think rather expensive might be a slight understatement for me!  That baby is the same price as my AVR!!  The whole point of the AVR (not ideal i get that) was just to be able to not have to buy a dang DAC every 6 mos.  Plus I am a MC guy...I like stereo but given the choice i'd obviously rather be listening in 5 channels.  Is there some technical limitation for this?  Given that there are lots of DSD capable receivers out there it seems kinda strange that the signal couldn't be passed over HDMI.  In fact, I would think that's what the content providers would prefer as it is 'protected'.  Any ideas why this can't happen?

[Noreltny-gmail]

Aren’t most of the DSD capable receivers actually converting the DSD to PCM on the fly? Isn’t that what the Oppos do?

 

I think you might be able to get DSD playback from a multichannel USB DAC, like the exaSound (http://www.exasound.com/), but it also costs more than your AVR.

[ArnoldLayne]

Many DSD capable receivers and players give you the options ot decode
to PCM or not before converting to analog. One prerequisite is that it
has a DAC that handle DSD. Both the Burr Brown 1796 in my receiver and
ES9018 Sabre in my Oppo player are in this cathegory. So far I've
found the BB 1796 less inferior for SACD than for PCM sources.

On 18 feb, 20:11, "Noreltny-gmail" <norel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aren't most of the DSD capable receivers actually converting the DSD to PCM
> on the fly? Isn't that what the Oppos do?
>
> I think you might be able to get DSD playback from a multichannel USB DAC,
> like the exaSound (http://www.exasound.com/), but it also costs more than
> your AVR.
>
> From: surrou...@googlegroups.com [mailto:surrou...@googlegroups.com]
> On Behalf Of August Bleed
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 12:39 PM
> To: surrou...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: foobar and SACD-Rs
>
> Thats what I thought and why I asked.  So the folks using these are only
> getting stereo playback anyway correct?  Or is it similar to bitstreaming
> whereby the the DSD is sent similarly to DTS over spdif to get multichannel
> where you'd previously only have 2 chan support?  I think rather expensive
> might be a slight understatement for me!  That baby is the same price as my
> AVR!!  The whole point of the AVR (not ideal i get that) was just to be able
> to not have to buy a dang DAC every 6 mos.  Plus I am a MC guy...I like
> stereo but given the choice i'd obviously rather be listening in 5 channels.
> Is there some technical limitation for this?  Given that there are lots of
> DSD capable receivers out there it seems kinda strange that the signal
> couldn't be passed over HDMI.  In fact, I would think that's what the
> content providers would prefer as it is 'protected'.  Any ideas why this
> can't happen?
>

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound

>
> --
> August
> Bleed, Inc.
> Selling Art Is Tying Your Ego To a Leash And Walking It Like a Dog
>
> --
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> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound- Ocultar texto de la cita -
>
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -

[August Bleed]

I have a DSD capable receiver.  It just doesn't get passed as DSD to the receiver using the software.  Only the mytek works as far as i know.

[ArnoldLayne]

Hmm, I think DSD output over HDMI is managed by DSP, if so the
implementation is very low level stuff. Does somebody know more about
this? Do soundcards have a DSP or is it a motherboard feature?

On 18 feb, 21:00, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a DSD capable receiver.  It just doesn't get passed as DSD to the
> receiver using the software.  Only the mytek works as far as i know.
>

> > groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound- Ocultar texto de la cita -
>
> > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "SurroundSound" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to Surrou...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > SurroundSoun...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound
>
> --
> August
> Bleed, Inc.

> Selling Art Is Tying Your Ego To a Leash And Walking It Like a Dog- Ocultar texto de la cita -

[August Bleed]

Either way if it gets to my oppo it should go out as DSD no question. Ive some experience with SACDs so if they play correctly....

August
Bleed Inc.
Selling art is tying your ego to a leash and walking it like a dog.

Sent from the BleedPod.

[Noreltny-gmail]

The exaSound also uses the ESS Sabre ES9018 DAC.

[August Bleed]

It seemed a fair question given that I have capable equipment.  Oh well.  I'm not buying anything else--I should have all the hardware I need to play just about anything.  Perhaps it is something to do with the DLNA thing.  But even straight from the PC Im not getting DSD.

[realafrica]

Some better soundcard drivers often have DSP.
But I imagine there is all kind of CRM $h1t involved with SACD output
over HDMI.
Hell, even an SACD capable PS3 will not output DSD without
downsampling it.

[August Bleed]

Dunno about that.  Maybe on the software side.  DSD over HDMI is pretty much the only way you got it until recently other than analog. Then the Mytek.  Oppo does it just fine.  Sounds great and you can absolutely tell btw that and a PCM.  Even on mid fi set up like mine.  I can imagine the licensing of DSD itself is the killing point, not the hdmi transmission.

[scolumbo]

In most DSD capable receivers, if any EQ or room correction is
applied, the receiver will convert to PCM first. So, even if you are
outputting DSD from your player or soundcard, you must use a Direct or
similar setting in the receiver that bypasses any EQ, bass management,
etc. For my room, SQ is improved using Audyssey so I prefer using DSD
converted to PCM and then having room correction applied versus DSD
direct to analog from the Oppo to my Denon 3808.

[August Bleed]

Everything is OFF.  I honestly get DSD and what I need to do.  The software just doesn't do it.  The amp does just fine, the Oppo does just fine.  The room correction software has never given me satisfactory results so only the most rudimentary stuff is running.  Set to Pure Mode.  No room EQ.  No EQ at all.  DSD capable receiver.  Oppo sounds better passing the DSD so I let it.  It shows as DSD on the amp.  It sounds noticeably different when I tell the Oppo to output PCM.  I don't think it would output DSD if something in the chain was incapable of handling it.  Or am I really missing something?

[August Bleed]

I have a collection of about 100 SACDs.  They all play properly.  MC and stereo.  In DSD.  While I cannot be certain there isn't some kind of foolery going on internally in the amp, all indications say that it is indeed outputting DSD and was in fact designed to do that.  It is one of the reasons I bought it.  The Oppo was on a short list when I discovered MC music and I had a Pioneer mid range model that wouldn't pump my B&Ws and wouldn't play SACDs natively.  Again unless there is some foolery going on all indications seem to point to it being a DSD capable receiver.

[realafrica]

August what exactly is your DSD capable amp?
There was a list here of all amps receivers that really did do DSD and
those that did some foolery as you put it.
Since Google made changes to it's G Groups we may not have it here any
more, but we should have the list backed up over on HRON.

On Feb 20, 5:03 pm, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a collection of about 100 SACDs.  They all play properly.  MC and
> stereo.  In DSD.  While I cannot be certain there isn't some kind of
> foolery going on internally in the amp, all indications say that it is
> indeed outputting DSD and was in fact designed to do that.  It is one of
> the reasons I bought it.  The Oppo was on a short list when I discovered MC
> music and I had a Pioneer mid range model that wouldn't pump my B&Ws and
> wouldn't play SACDs natively.  Again unless there is some foolery going on
> all indications seem to point to it being a DSD capable receiver.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 8:55 AM, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Everything is OFF.  I honestly get DSD and what I need to do.  The
> > software just doesn't do it.  The amp does just fine, the Oppo does just
> > fine.  The room correction software has never given me satisfactory results
> > so only the most rudimentary stuff is running.  Set to Pure Mode.  No room
> > EQ.  No EQ at all.  DSD capable receiver.  Oppo sounds better passing the
> > DSD so I let it.  It shows as DSD on the amp.  It sounds noticeably
> > different when I tell the Oppo to output PCM.  I don't think it would
> > output DSD if something in the chain was incapable of handling it.  Or am I
> > really missing something?
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[August Bleed]

Oh I have the Yamaha RXV-2065 which is the top of the line mid priced receiver from 2009 or 2010.  It was around 1300 at the time when it first was introduced.  It's now much cheaper.  I got mine about a year and a half ago for around 600 bucks.  Seemed like a good deal as it is quite musical. Not the best DACs but implementation isn't so bad.  There is a burr brown supposedly for each channel.  It also supposedly puts out DSD.  The info on the DACs in the unit is a bit hard to find.  I have a couple possibilities for what is inside but there isn't a great deal of info.  I have heard both things about the unit.  One group said it does pure DSD.  Others have said it just lights up the light.  Like I said I have everything set for bit perfect playback regardless of source.  So it theoretically should work.  Again unless there is some foolery going on in the amp.  In which case if I am streaming to the Oppo over say foobar then it should put out DSD right?  At least at the Oppo level.  Or am I just totally off here?  I should have prefaced by saying I'm not an audio guru but I seem to have a general understanding of most stuff.  At least fundamentally.  Hence the confusion.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/SurroundSound

[grill]

The old thread on AVS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1230824

> ...
>
> tovább »- Idézett szöveg elrejtése -
>
> - Idézett szöveg megjelenítése -

[August Bleed]

Maybe I have been duped.  I thought that bitstreaming eliminated all that.  HMMMMM.  I am very disappointed.  I can't imagine why it would sound better as DSD then.  Assuming the model closest to mine seems to indicate a negatory on that.  It's closest relative seems to indicate its on the SUPPOSED non Pure DSD Receivers.  That's a better than maybe no I'm thinking.  Weird.  Like I said you would think bitstreaming over a video channel would just pass the signal.  Im usually missing something so i'll leave it at that!

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[Steven Sullivan]

If set to PCM your Oppo will convert at 88/24 -- that's a bandwidth up to
44kHz -- and I would expect an AVR to convert to that (or higher) as well,
so, assuming absolutely every other DSP in your setup is OFF, there really
shouldn't be an audible difference between it and DSD. In that case I
doubt you are missing anything in either mode.

[realafrica]

It does not seem to list this Yamaha model, or did I miss it, on that
very verbose list?

> ...
>
> read more »

[August Bleed]

No I just sorta assumed the next model down would likely contain the same dac with slightly different implementation.  There is some disagreement whether this has the 1680, the 1681 or the 17--series of DACs.  The service manual I found doesn't seem to go into detail on those particular parts but its a pretty big list.

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[August Bleed]

FWIW I went on a LOT of AV sites to try to figure out exactly what is residing in my 2065.  I found some Russian sites that were the only ones that seem to have any kind of info like this on AVRs.  Needless to say the translation wasn't all that good. So the confusion is mostly mine.  Some have it that there is some kind of DSD chip in there.  I can't seem to figure out the DAC from my search.  There is a pretty good differentiation btw DSD and PCM in terms of SQ if my unit is in fact lying and putting out PCM while claiming to do DSD.  I find that kinda weird if I've been listening to PCM all this time why the DSD stuff sounds so good compared to PCM flacs from say HDtracks or what have you.  One would think my amp would do a much less capable job than what they use.  Anyway I dunno if this is something anyone else knows about but I would love to know what's going on.  If it isn't a DSD capable rec. it is doing a pretty good job of disguising itself as one.  Really.  Its night and day from PCM.

[August Bleed]

This is what the Chinese have to say:

  Digital audio decoding circuitry and digital video circuit in the same circuit board. Multi-channel and two channel decoding, bass management, space to deal with the digital sound field processing ( YAMAHA Cinema DSPs) are solely responsible for the TI and YAMAHA technology cooperation of TMS320070YE the, 32-bit floating-point arithmetic chip, decoding and other digital disposed The signal sent's Burr-Brown PCM1680 (192kHz/24bit six-channel Delta-Sigma DAC) a comprehensive and balanced analog converter. The audio amplifier section, This machine adopts SANYO power amplifier modules: seven channels, including one the STK 433-330 (three-channel modules) and two STK 433-130 (two-channel modules) Total per sound Road, the same output power. EI transformer power supply power supply circuit is used, the use of low-noise news, fast Schottky diodes for rectification, filter capacitors are Nippon CHEMI-CON, custom YAMAHA the two 6800μF/63V electrolytic capacitors. From the perspective of the overall circuit design , the machine continues YAMAHA has always been The ToP-of ART concept: focus on the sound purity, selection of high-quality components andcircuit configurations (to shorten the signal and power paths).

[ArnoldLayne]

The Burr Borwn PCM1680 is unfortunately not handling DSD signals:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1680.pdf

That is, it has to be transcoded to PCM before reaching the DAC of
your receiver.

On 21 feb, 03:04, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is what the Chinese have to say:
>   Digital audio decoding circuitry and digital video circuit in the same

> circuit board. Multi-channel and two channel decoding, bass management, *
> space* <http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-111> to deal with the

> digital sound field processing (

> *YAMAHA*<http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-122> Cinema

> DSPs) are solely responsible for the TI and YAMAHA technology cooperation
> of TMS320070YE the, 32-bit floating-point arithmetic chip, decoding and
> other digital disposed The signal sent's Burr-Brown PCM1680 (192kHz/24bit
> six-channel Delta-Sigma DAC) a comprehensive and balanced analog converter. The
> audio amplifier section, This machine adopts SANYO power amplifier modules:
> seven channels, including one the STK 433-330 (three-channel modules) and
> two STK 433-130 (two-channel modules) Total per sound Road, the same output
> power. EI transformer power supply power supply circuit is used, the use of
> low-noise news, fast Schottky diodes for rectification, filter capacitors
> are Nippon CHEMI-CON, custom YAMAHA the two 6800μF/63V electrolytic
> capacitors. From the perspective of the overall circuit

> *design*<http://av.diguo.hk/index.php?action-tag-tagid-42> ,

> the machine continues YAMAHA has always been The ToP-of ART concept: focus
> on the sound purity, selection of high-quality components andcircuit
> configurations (to shorten the signal and power paths).
>

> On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:42 PM, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > FWIW I went on a LOT of AV sites to try to figure out exactly what is
> > residing in my 2065.  I found some Russian sites that were the only ones
> > that seem to have any kind of info like this on AVRs.  Needless to say the
> > translation wasn't all that good. So the confusion is mostly mine.  Some
> > have it that there is some kind of DSD chip in there.  I can't seem to
> > figure out the DAC from my search.  There is a pretty good differentiation
> > btw DSD and PCM in terms of SQ if my unit is in fact lying and putting out
> > PCM while claiming to do DSD.  I find that kinda weird if I've been
> > listening to PCM all this time why the DSD stuff sounds so good compared to
> > PCM flacs from say HDtracks or what have you.  One would think my amp would
> > do a much less capable job than what they use.  Anyway I dunno if this is
> > something anyone else knows about but I would love to know what's going on.
> >  If it isn't a DSD capable rec. it is doing a pretty good job of disguising
> > itself as one.  Really.  Its night and day from PCM.
>

> > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 5:34 PM, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> No I just sorta assumed the next model down would likely contain the same
> >> dac with slightly different implementation.  There is some disagreement
> >> whether this has the 1680, the 1681 or the 17--series of DACs.  The service
> >> manual I found doesn't seem to go into detail on those particular parts but
> >> its a pretty big list.
>

> t; > > > > > > On Feb 16, 11:42 pm, August Bleed <

[August Bleed]

You would think if a receiver touts that as a feature they would think to actually include the feature.  Not complaining about the fake DSD.  Actually sounds good.  And better than when I have the Oppo do PCM.  Go figure.  A fake DSD that sounds better than PCM.  Well, I do get the benefit of the light coming on for DSD recordings, even if it apparently is meaningless!

[scolumbo]

The Oppo doing the conversion to PCM sounds excellent through my Denon
3808 and certainly not a "night and day" difference with my Denon
doing the conversion. Maybe there is something going on with your
Yamaha receiver that should be investigated if you are getting such
poor SQ with PCM input to your receiver. There should not be
significant differences between the Oppo doing the conversion versus
your receiver.

On Feb 21, 6:45 pm, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You would think if a receiver touts that as a feature they would think to
> actually include the feature.  Not complaining about the fake DSD.
>  Actually sounds good.  And better than when I have the Oppo do PCM.  Go
> figure.  A fake DSD that sounds better than PCM.  Well, I do get the
> benefit of the light coming on for DSD recordings, even if it apparently is
> meaningless!
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[ArnoldLayne]

From my experience there can be an audible difference between good and
bad DSD to PCM conversions. The rank for the gears I've had between
pure and converted DSD would be:

Pioneer DV-565A < Oppo BD-980H < Onkyo TX-NR3007.

I haven't tried outputting DSD as PCM from my Oppo BD-95 yet, A
virginity thing, sort of... :D

> ...
>
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[August Bleed]

Yeah but there is a difference and it is audible when the unit is supposedly outputting DSD.  I wouldn't think there would be if the unit in fact wasn't doing DSD at all.  But that is what I am hearing.  I honestly thought I'd been listening to DSD the whole time such was the difference.  They were generally (the improvements) around pianos, vocals, and drums.  These are the things that DSD coincidentally does very well.  Those instruments take on a flatter (notice I didn't say flat) dynamic when I convert to PCM. The same album by the Stones using DSD doesn't sound like the same tracks from HDtracks which are PCM versions of DSD files.  So this doesn't exactly make sense on one level.  OTOH either the Oppo is doing a marvelous job at DSD, or the Yamaha is doing a remarkable job of not touching the signal.  I unfortunately can't complain too much because it sounds sublime--but I will think twice about the next receiver I buy that claims to do DSD.

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[scolumbo]

I agree there can be subtle differences. In fact, the Oppo outperforms
using Foobar in converting DSD to PCM in my recent testing. In
addition to the Oppo, I've had several Denon players and AVRs that
have been capable of converting DSD to PCM, as well as 2 Denon
receivers and a Denon universal player that could output DSD direct to
analog. I find the Oppo to be as good as any equipment I've had in
that regard. I wouldn't describe my Denon 3808 AVR, that is capable of
converting DSD direct to analog or converting DSD to 24/192 PCM
reasonably well by most accounts, as having a huge difference with the
Oppo when it converts DSD to 24/88.2 PCM. Maybe my definition of
"night and day" is different.

> ...
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[Lokkerman]

On the old SSGG we had a list of DACs etc that would support DSD. In fact most DACs are ladder type (Burr-Brown) and designed for PCM,so  within they convert DSD streams to PCM and have command leads to support this - folks who have Denon's should be fully aware of this. DSD DACs are usually the cheaper types and are used in single bit differential mode, primarily of the Phillips family. I did have a large collection of data sheets. Also one last point is that all systems use some form of DSP and that is the voodoo magic - unless you are a board designer you have no control over this element, so you could have in theory any DAC, controlled by a Red book DSP, although in practice this would be stupid but so is gas pricing (petrol in the UK; lol)
Finally if you listen to the original non PS3 oppo rips some sound a lot nicer (let's not start an argument here please Steven) in native Oppo PCM conversion than those converted in software by Foobar, perhaps explains what the Oppo can do in the DSP area.
Finally, I believe that most SACDs could be a bit of a con compared to  PCM as most are in reality about 19/20 bit and 48k data rate, which sounds similar to the  HDCD spec albeit with the huge benefit of surround.

[scolumbo]

I don't have much experience with HDTracks downloads. However, I
could believe that there are differences between their PCM tracks
versus a player or receiver doing the DSD to PCM conversion,
especially if they are using a software-based conversion. Is there
some place on their site that describes their process?

On Feb 22, 12:19 pm, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah but there is a difference and it is audible when the unit is
> supposedly outputting DSD.  I wouldn't think there would be if the unit in
> fact wasn't doing DSD at all.  But that is what I am hearing.  I honestly
> thought I'd been listening to DSD the whole time such was the difference.
>  They were generally (the improvements) around pianos, vocals, and drums.
>  These are the things that DSD coincidentally does very well.  Those
> instruments take on a flatter (notice I didn't say flat) dynamic when I
> convert to PCM. The same album by the Stones using DSD doesn't sound like
> the same tracks from HDtracks which are PCM versions of DSD files.  So this
> doesn't exactly make sense on one level.  OTOH either the Oppo is doing a
> marvelous job at DSD, or the Yamaha is doing a remarkable job of not
> touching the signal.  I unfortunately can't complain too much because it
> sounds sublime--but I will think twice about the next receiver I buy that
> claims to do DSD.
>

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[August Bleed]

It depends.  Some are done in house.  Others are done at Sonoma by the Ludwig guy--they used to prominently feature that but I notice I no longer see his name anywhere.  Interesting.  I should probably not have said night and day but yeah there seem to be differences even though from what you guys are telling me even if the Oppo is passing DSD its getting borked by the receiver--as I said my unit does a fabulous job of it so there aren't complaints per se other than being duped.  It's just odd behavior to experience given that it is being converted to PCM anyway.  That's really all I was saying.  Whoever above basically said it all with the DSP voodoo which is going on in just about every system...oversampling and such behind the scenes, it's hard to even know if you can get bit perfect playback on a consumer system.  My experience above shows that just because the light comes on, or say the receiver reports this or that sample rate in the case of PCM, doesn't mean that is what you get. 

2012/2/22 scolumbo <saco...@gmail.com>

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[realafrica]

HDTracks do describe their very expensive conversion hardware (not
software) on their website.
I last read it maybe a year ago so I can't now remember details to
point you at.

On Feb 22, 10:27 pm, August Bleed <bleed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It depends.  Some are done in house.  Others are done at Sonoma by the
> Ludwig guy--they used to prominently feature that but I notice I no longer
> see his name anywhere.  Interesting.  I should probably not have said night
> and day but yeah there seem to be differences even though from what you
> guys are telling me even if the Oppo is passing DSD its getting borked by
> the receiver--as I said my unit does a fabulous job of it so there aren't
> complaints per se other than being duped.  It's just odd behavior to
> experience given that it is being converted to PCM anyway.  That's really
> all I was saying.  Whoever above basically said it all with the DSP voodoo
> which is going on in just about every system...oversampling and such behind
> the scenes, it's hard to even know if you can get bit perfect playback on a
> consumer system.  My experience above shows that just because the light
> comes on, or say the receiver reports this or that sample rate in the case
> of PCM, doesn't mean that is what you get.
>

> 2012/2/22 scolumbo <sacolu...@gmail.com>

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> read more »

[August Bleed]

Sorry Gus Skinas of Super Audio Center!  Der...Or maybe he just did the Abko stuff at the time.

> ...
>
> read more »

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[Noreltny-gmail]

The difference you hear probably has nothing to do with whether the DSD is/was converted to PCM or not. It is more likely your signal chain. When you play the DSD, what is the signal chain?

 

SACD disc drive ---- HDMI cable ---- Oppo ---- ??? cable --- AV receiver/amplifier ---- speakers

 

And, where is the DAC? If it is at the Oppo, then you might be using the superior sounding Sabre ES9018 DAC (which many people praise as being the best sounding DAC available). This is only the case if you are using an analog output from the Oppo to your receiver. Then the receivers DAC is bypassed and you are just using the preamp/amp section of the receiver. If the connection between your Oppo and receiver is digital, then you are skipping the Oppo’s DAC (which might be superior to your receiver’s dac) and your receiver is producing the analog signal.

 

When you play an HDTrack’s PCM file, what is the signal chain?

 

Computer  ---- soundcard or external device? ---- digital or analog connection ---- AV receiver/amplifier --- speakers

 

There could be a difference in what you hear, because you are listening to an entirely different signal chain. If with both cases, the connection to the receiver is digital, then it could be that the type of connection interface is different. For example, if you are using a S/PDIF connection between your computer and receiver, you will not get full quality with a multichannel track. S/PDIF is not capable of passing 5.1 24 bit audio. It maxes out at 5.1 16-bit 48 KHz. Are you using an HDMI connection from your computer to the receiver? I doubt your receiver can decode FLAC, so your player is decoding and passing PCM and then the receiver is converting to analog.

 

If the receiver’s DAC is used in both cases, you shouldn’t be hearing much difference.

 

From: surrou...@googlegroups.com [mailto:surrou...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of August Bleed
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:19 AM
To: surrou...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [SurroundSound] Re: foobar and SACD-Rs

 

Yeah but there is a difference and it is audible when the unit is supposedly outputting DSD.  I wouldn't think there would be if the unit in fact wasn't doing DSD at all.  But that is what I am hearing.  I honestly thought I'd been listening to DSD the whole time such was the difference.  They were generally (the improvements) around pianos, vocals, and drums.  These are the things that DSD coincidentally does very well.  Those instruments take on a flatter (notice I didn't say flat) dynamic when I convert to PCM. The same album by the Stones using DSD doesn't sound like the same tracks from HDtracks which are PCM versions of DSD files.  So this doesn't exactly make sense on one level.  OTOH either the Oppo is doing a marvelous job at DSD, or the Yamaha is doing a remarkable job of not touching the signal.  I unfortunately can't complain too much because it sounds sublime--but I will think twice about the next receiver I buy that claims to do DSD.

[Lokkerman]

Let's not underestimate the calibre of folks we have here most have very good sound systems. Myself I eschew integrated receivers, although I sit in my study listening to one now for convenience, in favour of purpose made units, such as mono block amps.

Receivers tend to have too much noisy techonlogy for the space allowed in the can and I say this as an ex-engineer; even my HTPCs have big PSUs and sound cards working to analogue outs but that is my choice.

[August Bleed]

Oppo 93--DSD decoding on--HDMI to RXV2065 to B&W 683, 5, and matched center.

The receiver in this case is set to pure mode and should be bitstreaming from the Oppo.

PCM is a bit different.  2 chan is done in the Oppo over RCA to the AVR.

More than 2 chan is sent via HDMI with the AVR doing the decoding as I prefer the sound (believe it or not) of multichannel over my receiver than the Oppo. 

Sometimes I forget and listen to everything over HDMI.  Unless the recording is really bad it is usually ok and I can't tell right away.

[August Bleed]

Sorry also for PCM I use the DLNA to stream from a Mac to the OPPO.  

I've been impressed by the sound of my AVR overall.  Much of the time it sounds better doing the lifting than the Oppo. It's actually pretty musical.  It was dissed because of the lack of lots of video chips in it but I prefer that it just pass it.  Anyway for a jack of all trades it can often best the Oppo.  Strange but true!

[Steven Sullivan]

How are these tests being done?

[August Bleed]

good one.

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[Steven Sullivan]

Ah, the tests are a joke then?

[August Bleed]

I'm talking about the sound coming from my AVR.  It's an entirely subjective observation.

[Noreltny-gmail]

Not sure what you mean by DSD decoding on (I don’t own an Oppo and don’t use an AVR’s DACs). Does that mean the Oppo decodes the DSD to PCM? Then, the PCM is passed to your AVR and the AVR’s DAC output analog to the amps, etc. However, you then say the receiver is bitstreaming from the Oppo. That’s a bit confusing because it seems like you are saying the AVR is pulling data from the Oppo, instead of the Oppo pushing data to the AVR. As for bitstreaming, that would usually mean the data (stream of bits) is sent unchanged to the AVR and then the AVR decodes the data. So the AVR would be getting DSD from the Oppo and then the AVR decodes the DSD data to PCM data and the AVR’s DACs output the analog signal.

 

In any case, it seems like you are using your AVR’s DACs. So the DAC and analog output circuitry of your AVR produces your sound when you are playing music from a SACD disc or PCM from your Mac.

 

Also, you mentioned that you subjectively like the sound of your AVR. This doesn’t necessarily mean the AVR sounds better or worse than your Oppo or other signal chain options, but it sounds better to you.

[August Bleed]

The Oppo will output DSD or PCM in it's menu.  The AVR otoh will supposedly detect DSD and pass the signal.  The AVR doesn't have a menu to choose this.  It is controlled by what the Oppo does.  If I set the Oppo to PCM the AVR displays PCM.  If I set the Oppo to DSD the AVR displays DSD.  Bitstreaming in the Oppo menu will pass the DTS-HD and stuff to the receiver as such and not as PCM.  I generally set the Oppo to this as I prefer the sound of the AVRs DACs for whatever reason.  I get the confusion.  Its confusing.  I'm not sure I am sure what is decoding what in this situation.  It almost seems like the AVR is in some kind of passthrough mode when the DSD is being output although I doubt this is possible.  Again it seems to show that the Oppo does a great job before the conversion, or the Yamaha does a pretty darn good job of not announcing itself.  You can do a pretty simplistic comparison by going into the Oppo menu and switching the DSD output from DSD to PCM.  Supposedly (as an aside) the Oppo won't pass DSD to a DAC that isn't DSD capable.  It is supposed to be able to tell if yr AVR is DSD capable.  Odd, Odd, Odd.  Anyway it's this menu switching in the Oppo that I am comparing.  Again it gives one the choice of DSD or PCM.  So it is pretty easy to compare the sound although the track will start again when you choose one or the other.  Not scientific but pretty convincing for my ears.

[August Bleed]

I understand that doesn't mean one sounds better than the other.  I definitely added it was my subjective experience and preference.

[Steven Sullivan]

His Oppo is passing DSD as DSD to his AVR. His AVR is recognizing it as
DSD. What it's doing after that seems unclear, though there's really only
two possibilities: either it's converting DSD to analog, or it's
converting DSD to PCM, then to analog (with optional DSP in between). In
no case except adding DSP (e.g., bass management or room correction EQ or
DPLII/DTSNeo surround synthesis) would I expect there to be a notable
audible difference.

[August Bleed]

AVR in Pure Direct--there's supposedly only rudimentary bass management going on.  I don't use the YPAO RC because it doesn't give me the results I prefer.  So basically everything is off except for the delays to the speakers.  I don't use DSP like DLPII.  Dunno if that helps anyone explain the mess that is the inside of my AVR.

[ArnoldLayne]

I see Steven S. is still confused/confusing, so I repeat myself to
avoid any misuderstandings: If the RX-V2065 receives a DSD signal over
HDMI, it will always convert to PCM. Period.

> > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Noreltny-gmail <norel...@gmail.com>

> > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 8:28 AM, ArnoldLayne <arnoldlayn...@gmail.com>