Concert Band Score Layout
Silvina Spindler
I'm creating pdfs with a single melodic part. In this case I'm not crazy about the instrument name in an indent of the music, so I was started putting the instrument name as a sub title and remove the Instrument_name_engraver and indents from the layout. I recently started repeating the same part in the same document for different transpositions for a variety of solo instruments, and customizing layouts for instruments individually just feels cumbersome.
I'm looking for a way, ideally without just shifting the position manually, to move the results of the lilypond Instrument_name_engraver to the top left corner (almost) of the page, in a template, the way I see the majority of individual instrument parts for concert band. Lilyponds defaults seem to be better suited for scores or when multiple voices are being staved together.
All I need is a list of values for each instrument's panning so I can tune them to their stage positions. This also includes instruments not included in Musescore's concert band template, namely the contrabass clarinet and english horn.
Is there a standard layout for concert band? I have played in many bands over several decades. Each MD has their own ideas about seating and those ideas are very varied. Also consider that concert bands play in many different types of setting: stage, park band stand etc. with their individual constraints. When I dep in a new band, my first question is where do I sit? So, I think first you need to decide what layout you want. Then you can play with the mixer settings to get the effect you want.
Orchestras are slightly more standardised. Most I have played in have violins on the left, cellos and basses on the right with violas behind. But some have the violins split 1st on the left, 2nds on the right with cellos and basses behind 1st violins and violas behind 2nd violins. And then there are differences in where the brass go. Woodwind seems fairly settled in the centre.
I found a layout on the Internet and placed the Pan numbers (L:0, C:64, R:128) used by the Musescore software on it. I set the pan numbers in two different ways, in the center of the stage (linear) and relative to where the Conductor is standing (semi-exponential).
PS:
You can place the Contrabass Clarinet on the right side of the Bass Clarinet and the English Horn on the right side of the Oboe.
If there are keyboards and bass guitar in the group, think of them as percussions and place them accordingly (Near the drum-set.)
Sorry to bother you way after the fact, but is it possible you could make one of these using Musescore 4's new panning range? It's a -100 to 100 scale instead of 0 to 127, so I don't know how to convert the panning template I made for Musescore 3.
Yes, you need a starting point. Instruments need to be panned. I'm just not sure how carried away you should get with exact numbers. Try an experiment.
If you mix in headphones, go ahead and set it up just the way you want. Then listen to the result on different systems. Through a speaker system. In ear buds. In your car. Even different speaker systems or different car systems. Each one will sound different. The trumpets (for example) might be too loud on one system and too soft on another. That timpani roll you worked so hard on (because rolls don't sound great) gets lost. You don't know what someone is going to listen on. Professional studios have ways to deal with this. Notation software does not.
This is pretty much for me and me alone because I think copyright prevents me from posting most of my projects.
What you say is true, though. The mix won't translate perfectly between different speakers, headphones, et cetera. But I'm not too worried since I'm just doing this for fun. I may be a hardcore perfectionist, but even I understand that I can't win 'em all.
That being said, your advice is sound. I'm curious to hear more, so please continue if you wish.
I, also, do this for myself for fun. But that doesn't mean we don't want the best result. And there's the rub. What is the best result? Recording studios have set standards they use for their productions. What they produce is what we are used to hearing as far as recordings go. But is the standard accurate. Recordings are how most of us listen to music. But then we go to a live concert. What we hear is different. And part of why it is different (along with dozens of other factors) is based on where we are in relation to the group playing. Recordings place us front and center. Great. But is that realistic?
More than that, just listen to the oboe player in the live concert. The player blends their sound just so, based on what they are hearing around them. The beautiful solo is totally dependant on what else is happening around them. With a few thousand dollars worth of samples and a DAW, you might be able to approach this. At least enough to convince most listeners. There is nothing like live music.
On the other hand, there is nothing like the music we are producing in MuseScore. I have been a member of a form of composers. The members that worked in a DAW often pointed out how unrealistic notation software output was. They are right. But what is realistic, and how do we achieve it? There have been those that think that adding delays or pitch variations are the way to do it. After all, real players don't play perfectly all the time. Maybe so, but introducing "mistakes" doesn't seem realistic to me. The goal of musicians is to play with, and in, and around all the other players. It is the job of musicians to blend with each other no matter what degree it is that they are placed at in the group.
I think that the job that we have as composers is to write good music. After all, a Bach fugue sounds good no matter what instruments are playing it.
Okay, this may be a bit much.
I get that it'll never sound completely realistic. Hearing this makes me doubt myself, though, like all the effort I put into making it sound better is pointless.
This is a hobby of mine, a place of comfort. It's not supposed to be stressful.
I know you aren't trying to stress me out, so I'm not upset with you.
Just remember that we have different philosophies; I'm not striving for absolute perfection.
Sorry. I think you might misunderstand me. I'm not trying for perfection either. There is no such thing. All we can do is set things up in such a way that we enjoy what we hear. I think that this is the miracle of software. We have the chance to hear what we are writing in real time. Works for me. Have fun.
Of course, my mistake.
It's certainly a joy to hear a composition come to life, so I agree with you there. And Musescore 4 is a very special piece of software for what it is. I was initially displeased with Muse Sounds, but it's really grown on me. I have a feeling it could be an unbeatable software for its price bracket once everything is mostly ironed out.
What else?
In 3.6.2. you can set between 0 and 127; just numbers with no senseful background; except they represent a binary 7 bit value.
OK, probably you replied on the temperature conversion ... :-)
So, min. and max. are used to establish comparable ranges in which to convert values from one scale to the other.
So, for liquid water, these min. and max. values can be used in the equation to convert water temperature:
(Who said math is not needed in music? ;-)
"There is a lot of math!"
Maybe, but were those applied after the fact? Or used to create the intervals?
Mathematical relationships may exist, but that doesn't always mean anything. I've never understood why it is so important to link the two.
We play the instruments and music that we have. Using the tunings that are the norm right now. Just like they did in the Renaissance. Which was much different than today. And in 3 or 4 hundred years who knows what the scale will be like. Math or no math. Math might explain it, but not create it.
Notation appears to be math. But if we never wrote anything down what would our music be like? Indian ragas are far more complicated than anything in Western music. They are passed down by rote. African drum rhythms can not be accurately notated.
I know this can be a hot topic. Sorry. I'm just having a little fun.
I must apologize and say I'm not a math person, so you'll have to hold my hand and walk me through this.
What I'm confused about are your example equations. Where did the 150 come from? Also, it looks like you subtracted where your equation says to add. I may just be stupid since it's math, but I'd like a little more help if it's not too much to ask.
If you want to map e.g. to a new range like -75 to 75, you need to adapt this factor 1.575 and the source must also start with zero. If you have an old range not going to 127, you must adapt the value 63.5 too, this is the midpoint of the old range.
My second equation works for all mapping variants, from any range to any other range.
Basically, I did the same step of subtracting the 63.5 from the old value. But when it came to the new -75 to 75 range, I used 1.181 (the number I got from dividing the new range by the old) instead of 1.575. I'm not sure if that's what I was supposed to do, but I did it anyway.
Whatever the case, I applied that new range to my score and it sounds absolutely beautiful. I'm grateful for all the help you've provided.
Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by amybalcomb - 17 Aug 07:26AM Hide picture Have posted before but getting to end of editing and rewriting parts for my small chamber music score and I still have huge layout issues (when changing key the signatures are sometimes bunched up, or staves are too close, etc). I didn't preset any sizing beforehand which I've discovered is preferable.
Is it best to start my score from scratch again or try to edit this one because as I move one parts sizing it affects the rest.
If I do need to start from scratch could I be guided on layout size, stave size etc? I'm happy to attach the score if it helps. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by kbundies - 17 Aug 07:39AM (edited 17 Aug 07:41AM) Hide picture amybalcomb,
there are two very helpful tools to clear up the mess you are describing.
1.) first of all: Select the score or the part and _Reset Note Spacing_
There is a shortkey for that: Shift-Cmd-N
2.) secondly: Select your score or part and _Optimize Staff Spacing_
There is a shortkey for that: Alt-Shift-Cmd-O
ps: yes, it is always helpful to attach a score, and it is helpful to mention the computer system you are working on (Short-keys might differ)
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Sibelius 8.4.1 build 111 on Mac OSX 10.11.6 Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by Chris Crawley - 17 Aug 09:23AM (edited 17 Aug 09:25AM) Hide picture I'm a little mystified about what is meant by "layout size" - Sibelius will fill an imaginary A4 page (unless you have panorama view turned on). You can change the settings for the page margins and so on, but these can be left alone unless you have specific requirements. Likewise, the default stave size should be OK to start with - Sibelius automatically changes this the more staves you have in your score.
What is not a good idea is to drag staves or barlines.
KB's suggestions are good. You may also wish to try Select All and do Reset Spacing.
If there are still issues, attach the score to your next post and someone will advise.
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Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer, Windows 8.1 64-bit, Intel Core i7 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by Adrian Drover - 17 Aug 09:49AM Hide picture Layout size depends on the size of ensemble and page size. I write most of my scores on A4 landscape at 3.5mm staff size. It works well for big band (19-20) staves. Same for brass band. For string orchestra, I would either reduce staff size to 3.0mm or use A4 portrait score. Same for concert band. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by Mike Lyons - 18 Aug 07:40AM Hide picture For larger scores, it is useful to be able to produce the score on A3 size paper if at all possible - a large-format printer is also useful!
I, because of my failing eyesight, tend to work on the score on A3 on-screen and reduce it to A4 on printing as the main conductor who has to read my scores is young and has 20/20 vision!
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Win 10 Pro, 1.6GHz Intel i7 Quad core, 8GB,7TB 7200rpm HDD, Scarlett 6i6, Sib 6.2,7.5, 8.3 NotePerformer, Miroslav Phil, Harmony Asst, GPO, COMB2, EWQLSO Plat, EWQLSC,
Si me castigare vis, necesse est me intellexisse. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by Adrian Drover - 18 Aug 09:08AM Hide picture A3 is OK if the conductor has a very large music stand, but not so convenient for shipping, especially at today's mailing charges. I used to write my scores on B4 (midway between A4 & A3) but I don't know if this paper size is still easily available.
The way I see it, the conductor doesn't need to be able to read each individual part, just the overall shape of the orchestration. If he/she needs to check a note, eyeglasses can be removed and score lifted to nose level ;-) Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by Tony Wakefield - 18 Aug 09:45AM Hide picture "score lifted to nose level ;-) . . . . . hoping the previous conductor`s hands hadn`t spilt his/her curry.
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Sibelius 6/7/8. Win7. Note Performer. Various other no longer in use audio: EWQL x 3/Garriton Orch. & Jazz.
Good remote & cost free contact, adjustments and advice from Avid in the Philipines.
Web: Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by amybalcomb - 18 Aug 06:03PM Hide picture Curries aside, perhaps this might enlighten those who have very kindly offered advice so far....see what you think.
I will be adding more percussion into the score which will encroach on space. Attachment Amy Balcomb (510035) Alice's Adventures in Wonderland FULL SCORE Assignment 6 Sib 7.sib (289K) Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by Chris Crawley - 18 Aug 07:53PM Hide picture I haven't gone through it in detail, but it looks reasonably tidy - no sign of "huge layout issues" now.
If you add percussion the layout should automatically adjust if things are too crowded. As it is, you can afford to enlarge the stave size. (I went to 4.00 and the result doesn't look too dense.)
Maybe someone has the time to look more closely?
This is college/university work, I take it? (No need to respond to that if you don't want to.)
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Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer, Windows 8.1 64-bit, Intel Core i7 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by amybalcomb - 20 Aug 12:56PM Hide picture Hi Chris
Thanks for taking a look and my apologies for not acknowledging sooner. I usually ask for an email advising when I get responses to my posts but I must have left the check box un-checked!
I am now in the throws of adding percussion. Only two additional staves as I have decided to leave glockenspiel on their own and combine the drums and cymbals onto one 5-line stave, marking clearly as I go which sound is where..
And yes, this in my final year composition project for my BA Hons. I am a proud mature student of 40yrs and loving it, albeit finding this part of adding percussion a little tiresome.
I will take a look at the stave size and see if I can bring it up a bit.
Any further thoughts from anyone most welcome. Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by Chris Crawley - 20 Aug 02:53PM (edited 20 Aug 07:11PM) Hide picture Interesting! BA, not BMus? It seems a very ambitious project.
And well done for taking pride in your mature student status! I'm the same - went back to university after retirement to do a Master's and am still there!
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Chris Crawley (composer and horn-player) using Sibelius 7.1.3, NotePerformer, Windows 8.1 64-bit, Intel Core i7 3.30GHz, 64GB RAM, DacMagic 100 Back to top Allthreads Re: Sib 7.1.3 Orchestral score layout issues
Posted by amybalcomb - 20 Aug 03:32PM Hide picture No I'm doing a BA Hons in Creative Arts. When I first enrolled they weren't doing pure music degrees so I went for the next best thing and combined music composition with Creative Writing.
I am studying with the Open College of the Arts, who offer all manner of creative subjects that can be done on a stand alone basis or can be built up to accumulate enough points for a degree.
I 'hope' to progress on to a Masters with Thinkspace on their Professional Media Composition course in a few years time but a lot of learning needs to take place to get me to transition from acoustic composer to fully digitised one! Just invested in an iMac with Logic Pro X installed so I've started the journey.
In the meantime, I will continue to plug away at this course for the rest of the year until I get it sent off for formal assessment in March, which is when I will start picking up the pen and start the final year writing course!
Thanks for your support - hi to everyone else there at the forum! Back to top Allthreads