Suunto Zoop violation type

[John Hanzl]

I use Subsurface to record field dives for my aquarium's field divers. I require Zoops for all dives and I have been seeing a dive computer reported event of the following:

 

<event time='0:30 min' type='7' name='violation' />

I don't see anything at the given point of the dive that would indicate any issue - the closest thing I can think of would be a DESCENT rate violation. Does anyone have more information on type 7 violations for Zoops? Is this type assigned by Subsurface or is this coming out of the dive computer itself? (the data above is from a Subsurface XML export of a dive.

 

Regards,

John

 

John Hanzl

DSO

New England Aquarium 

 

 

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[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 8:58 AM, John Hanzl <jha...@neaq.org> wrote:
>
> <event time='0:30 min' type='7' name='violation' />
>
> I don't see anything at the given point of the dive that would indicate any
> issue - the closest thing I can think of would be a DESCENT rate violation.
> Does anyone have more information on type 7 violations for Zoops? Is this
> type assigned by Subsurface or is this coming out of the dive computer
> itself? (the data above is from a Subsurface XML export of a dive.

This is just libdivecomputer giving us "SAMPLE_EVENT_VIOLATION".

I have no idea what it is: it's "case 0x7b" in the raw download data,
and I have no idea what Suunto calls it.

Do you have access to Suunto DM somewhere? I'm not a huge fan of the
program, but maybe you can download the same dive and see what Suunto
calls that event?

Maybe it's just the "Diver attention" indicator (that's the triangle
warning with the exclamation point on the screen)? Or the mandatory
safety-stop thing? Those things tend to be triggered by fairly fast
ascents, but maybe a really fast descent could trigger them too?

Oh, and since it's so early in the dive, it might also be just the
usual "you had a surface interval less than an hour" thing. That tends
to make Suunto's very conservative and trigger the attention signal.
Was it a second dive in a series? Was there anything notable about the
previous dive (maybe that one triggered the diver attention thing, and
then Suunto _really_ wants you to have an hour between dives).

I'm just guessing (based on having used similar Suunto's for a long
while), which is why it might be interesting to see if Suunto DM ends
up giving any more information..

Linus

[John Hanzl]

Thanks for the answer. By the way - I took you in for a dive in the Giant Ocean Tank a few years ago.

 

Anyway, I see this event at the start of dives, with no correlation to surface interval. I can get IT to install DM on a computer (I had it on mine, but somehow it corrupted itself and won't run anymore). Not a fan. But I hate having an undefined violation for my divers that I can't explain, so perhaps I'll see what DM has to say...

[heybeachnik]

Hmm, I stumbled upon this post while looking for Suunto / Subsurface info. The original posts are a little old and it appears the subject was never closed. I think I have an idea about what happened - I'm guessing these violations are showing up on the 2nd or 3rd dive of the day - yes? What you are seeing is Suunto's way of reporting that the diver has ignored a 'Diver Alert Symbol' during a surface interval and the diver entered the water while the alert symbol was active. As a result, the diver will be penalized on the subsequent dive.


Short story…
- Suunto is monitoring for micro bubble build up.
- Suunto may decide that you have micro bubble build up even though you may have come no where close to 100% tissue saturation. So, during your first dive of the day, you might not come close to reaching your NDL - to the diver, it looks like everything is just fine.
- If during the dive Suunto RGBM perceives that you've done some thing or group of things that increase your chances of having a micro bubble build up, the computer will display a 'Diver Attention Symbol' during the surface interval. Oops
- 'Diver Attention Symbol' means - extend your surface interval. Suunto does not tell you how long to extend - it simply says extend until alert is no longer active.
- If you start your next dive with an active 'Diver Attention Symbol', your downloaded Suunto logs will display a 'violation' about 20 or 30 seconds into the dive. (an exclamation mark inside a white triangle inside a red box if you use DM3 -- in Subsurface, you'll see and exclamation mark on a orange background in a triangle).

Some additional tedious details : ) ...
- This is Suunto's way of letting you know why you may have been punished on subsequent dives - it's because you did not comply with the computer's recommendation to extend the surface interval.
- Incidentally, during the surface interval your Suunto will go into an operating mode called Time Keeping Mode (5 minutes after you end the previous dive). From my recollection, in Time Keeping Mode - Suunto does not display the 'Diver Attention Symbol' even though it is still active - yikes! If you've been on the surface for some time, you'll have to fiddle with the buttons to get the Suunto into Surface Mode to see if the 'Diver Attention Symbol' is still active. What a pain.
- For a recreational diver who is being very careful to avoid naughty behavior, he/she will still get the 'Diver Attention Symbol' and they might expect to have to do surface interval of 70 - 90 minutes to get the thing to turn off.
- If you've not noticed this feature before, don't feel bad, over the last 4 years I've made a practice of asking every Suunto owner on the dive boat 'is your Suunto Diver Alert Symbol on?'.  I've maybe met one person who knew what this is. And, not one dive master knew that the symbol was being displayed on his computer nor did they know what it meant.
- This can really be a drag on a boat with numerous divers. Myself and buddies will do long dives - 70 / 80 / 90 minutes. We get onto the boat and the DM wants to start the next dive 30 minutes later. I show the DM that his Suunto is displaying a 'Diver Attention Symbol' (and other diver's Suunto's are doing the same) and he let's me know that he hasn't a clue what that means, he smiles, and into the water he goes.
- Suunto user manuals say this about the Diver Attention Symbol:
Some patterns of diving cumulatively add a higher risk of DCI; for example, dives with short surface intervals, repetitive dives deeper than earlier ones, multiple ascents, and substantial multiday diving. When this is detected, in addition to adapting the decompression algorithm, the Suunto RGBM model will in some circumstances also
advise, with the Diver Attention Symbol, that you extend your surface interval.

- Additionally, the Suunto HelpDesk said this:

As you know Suunto computers track a number of factors in addition to how long you are underwater. When you exit the water you will notice the diver alert symbol, an exclamation point (!) inside a triangle. This means that the computer strongly recommends that you extend your surface interval until the symbol disappears. In most cases the recommended surface interval is around 45 to 75 minutes, depending on depth and time. Should you do anything "naughty" during your dive the recommended surface interval gets longer.

Naughty includes: going faster than 10m/min (getting a SLOW warning and a mandatory safety stop), reverse profile (current dive deeper than the last), decompression dives, insufficient surface interval, etc. All of these things will cause the diver alert symbol to stay on longer.

If you re-enter the water while the diver alert symbol is active the computer will penalise you and reduce your no decompression times. This is why many people think suunto computers are very conservative. The reason is that the computer thinks micro-bubbles may still be present and extra caution should be taken.

I can tell you from lots of personal experience, you can meticulously go over many logs and find nothing that fits the 'naughty' description provided by Suunto HelpDesk - and you will still get the Diver Attention Symbol.

[John Hanzl]

That is some great information, thanks so much - it answers a lot about both the Diver Attention Symbol and what I am seeing from my divers' computers when they come back from field dives. Again, thanks!

John

[Michael Newman]

This is pretty hard to fathom….

I'm looking at a couple of dives I did last June. Dive #1 was the first dive I'd done in five months. Maximum Depth was 15 meters. Dive time was 56 minutes. The only "naughty" thing I did during that dive was to briefly bob up to 1.5 meters during the safety stop.

Surface interval to the next dive was 2 hours and 27 minutes. And yet I have the Diver Attention Symbol at the beginning of that dive.

I think it would be pretty hard for me to convince the dive guide that I needed more than a 2 ½ hour surface interval after a 15 meter, 56 minute dive.

Anyway, thanks for all the detailed information. Now I know….

[heybeachnik]

That's a new one on me. I've never seen that in one of my logs. 

To be honest, I don't have a lot to compare in my logs since I'm usually back in the water in an hour or so. When I'm on a dive trip, I do a couple dives in the morning ( 45 to 70 minute SI) and then may or may not do another dive in the afternoon (with 90 to 120 minute SI)

Anyway, I just clicked through 40 afternoon dives in which I had a long SI. Not one of them had a Diver Alert Symbol active on the beginning of the dive in Suunto Diver Manager. And that is what Suunto indicates should be happening.

It sounds like your Suunto isn't working correctly?

Just to be sure…

- You're looking at logs that you downloaded from Suunto Dive computer to Suunto Dive Manager? (DM3, DM4, DM5 -- ?)

- You're looking at logs that you downloaded from Suunto Dive computer to Subsurface - direct?

- You're looking at logs that you downloaded from Suunto Dive computer to Suunto Diver Manager and then exported from DM and imported to Subsurface?

- By any chance, could you be confusing the icon for the 'Diver Alert Symbol' with the icon for 'Slow' ?

Why all the questions about Suunto Computer to Suunto Dive Manager to Subsurface? I've seen icons placed along the dive profile somewhat accurately by Suunto Dive Manager and then when I export those dives from SDM and import the dives to Subsurface, Subsurface has at least once messed up the icons. I haven't spent a lot of time studying this - might be something I did to mangle the files - don't think so, but I have to consider it a possibility.

- - - -

Incidentally, I use both Suunto DM and Subsurface. Really like Subsurface, however, I like to see what SDM has to say about tissue saturation. Not that Suunto / RGBM are any better than anyone else at estimating this, but Subsurface is a bit different and I don't quite know what to make of it. This in fact is what led me to this forum - the hope to glean a little more knowledge.

[heybeachnik]

Michael...

Hmm, I think I might know what is going on here.

I've only recently started using Subsurface. So, I've focused on my more recent dives.

Over the years of reviewing my dives in SDM, I've noticed some 'slow' alerts (slow down, you're ascending too fast). I've put a lot of effort into not tripping the warning in recent years / dives. Not saying I never do it, just do it a lot less than in the past.

So, those recent dives that I've been reviewing in Subsurface - they had no 'slow' warning icons in them. But some did have the icon at the spot where you would normally get a Diver Alert notification (20 - 30 seconds into a second dive).

So, just now I used Subsurface to review dives I did years ago - sure enough, unlike Suunto Diver Manager, Subsurface uses the same icon for both Diver Alert (you failed to extend your SI) AND 'slow' (you were ascending too fast).

Michael, I'm guessing you did not get a Diver Alert notification - and that you did get a notification that you were ascending too fast. It is very very difficult to complete... say, 10 dives, and not get one of these.

- - -

Incidentally, while the colored ascend segments used in Subsurface ( and the pop up info palette ) are very useful, they can also be missing. You might hover over a segment that has an ascent warning and see that Subsurface says you were ascending at a rate of 20 feet per minute. You say "hold on, 20 ft per minute shouldn't result in a 'slow' notification".

What isn't clear is that the graphic profile is a plot between two data points. The points come from your Suunto sample rate (could be 20 second interval, could be 30 second interval). In between two 30 second data points, a diver can easily blow the allowable ascent rate - and this won't show up in the graphic plot, all you have is the notification left in the dive computer. Trust is required : /

[Linus Torvalds]

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:15 AM, Michael Newman <mike.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm looking at a couple of dives I did last June. Dive #1 was the first dive
> I'd done in five months. Maximum Depth was 15 meters. Dive time was 56
> minutes. The only "naughty" thing I did during that dive was to briefly bob
> up to 1.5 meters during the safety stop.
>
> Surface interval to the next dive was 2 hours and 27 minutes. And yet I have
> the Diver Attention Symbol at the beginning of that dive.

If you're looking at the subsurface warning triangle, we really don't
necessarily always have great information for what all the warnings
and notifications are. The above doesn't sound like the normal Suunto
diver attention thing (which shows up as the warning triangle on the
screen). Although with the ceiling violation, who knows - with 10+
years of diving Suunto, I've pretty much given up on the diver
attention symbol, it's so easy to trigger.

For example, if you've told the dive computer that you have two
different cylinders (some people dive with a small bailout bottle of
40% O2), what often happens at the beginning of the dive is that the
Suunto will give you a "PO2" notification that you could use the other
gas. But I think subsurface would show that as "PO2 begin" or
something like that (mouse over the warning on the desktop, the
information window will show the details).

Also, you'll get a "voluntary safety stop" notification on pretty much
every dive when you go deeper than 10m. So if you do a fast descent,
you'll get that in the first minute or two. Again, subsurface should
show the details in the information thing when you mouse over it.

So some of the notifications really aren't that interesting. We filter
out the most pointless one: the "surface event" we just ignore
entirely because it's so uninteresting (you an see it from the graph,
for chissake). But I think subsurface shows all the others by default.

Linus

[Michael Newman]

Subsurface 4.5.3

OS X 10.11.3

Suunto D4i

This is from logs that downloaded from the D4i directly to Subsurface

I've attached a screen grab of the Subsurface graph. The alert is at the very beginning of the dive. Subsurface tags it as "Tissue Level Warning Begin". I assumed this corresponds to the Diver Alert symbol I often see on my computer; something I never really understood until reading this thread.

If I export the data as an XML file I see this:   <event time='0:00 min' type='25' value='21' name='gaschange' />

I'm not sure where that comes from because I did that whole dive trip on air. Why would Suunto report a gas change? And, why does it appear on the graph as a Tissue Level Warning?

[heybeachnik]

It's beyond me. That little red dot at the beginning of your dive - I never get one of those. I never get anything about "Tissue Level Warning Begin", I never get anything about 'gaschange'.

As I mentioned, I generally import data first from the dive computer directly to SDM and then export from SDM and import into Subsurface.Wouldn't think that would explain anything, but there it is.

Subsurface 4.5.3 on OS X 10.8.5

SDM 3.1.0.216 on Win7

Cobra

Gekko

[Michael Newman]

It's beyond me, too. I have the red dot at the beginning of every dive. I thought it just signified the beginning of the dive. I get the Tissue Level Warning on about half the dives, but I can find no relationship to that and the profile of the previous dive. I also get "Divetime Begin" and "Divetime End" on every dive at about 50 minutes. I get a "Tissue Level Begin" at the end of every dive. Here's the XML file fragment:

  <event time='0:00 min' type='25' value='21' name='gaschange' />

  <event time='49:59 min' type='17' flags='1' name='divetime' />

  <event time='50:59 min' type='17' flags='2' name='divetime' />

  <event time='66:07 min' type='24' flags='1' name='tissue level warning' />

 

I always figured these were anomalies that could be safely ignored….

[Linus Torvalds]

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Michael Newman <mike.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's beyond me, too. I have the red dot at the beginning of every dive. I
> thought it just signified the beginning of the dive.

Heh, no.

The red dot is the head of the "ruler". You can drag it around between
any two points of the dive in order to see what the time/depth
difference is between those two points.

You can also get rid of it entirely by going to the "toggle ruler"
button to the left of the graph (it's right underneath the "toggle
pO2" button - the graphic isn't wonderful).

> <event time='0:00 min' type='25' value='21' name='gaschange' />

So if you have multiple gases, you'll get a "gaschange" event at the
beginning that tells which gas you are starting with.

I don't think subsurface shows that first gaschange at zero time,
although we've had bugs in that area.

> <event time='49:59 min' type='17' flags='1' name='divetime' />
> <event time='50:59 min' type='17' flags='2' name='divetime' />

You've set your "divetime warning" to 50 minutes in your dive computer.

> <event time='66:07 min' type='24' flags='1' name='tissue level warning' />

.. and this is a real warning from the dive computer, indicating that
it thinks that you came up with less than ideal tissue levels.

Linus

[Michael Newman]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 7:40:36 AM UTC+7, Linus Torvalds wrote:

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Michael Newman <mike.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's beyond me, too. I have the red dot at the beginning of every dive. I
> thought it just signified the beginning of the dive.

Heh, no.

The red dot is the head of the "ruler". You can drag it around between
any two points of the dive in order to see what the time/depth
difference is between those two points.

Ha ha ha. Now that is very useful. Thank you.

 

>   <event time='49:59 min' type='17' flags='1' name='divetime' />
>   <event time='50:59 min' type='17' flags='2' name='divetime' />

You've set your "divetime warning" to 50 minutes in your dive computer.

Yes, this I had figured out. I was trying to gently point out that the event tag on the graph was slightly misleading….

 

I love discussions like this because I always end up learning a lot. Thank you.

[Mike Dugan]

Wow, THANK YOU...  I was getting SOOO mad!  DM5 doesn't show what Subsurface does (doesn't show the violation on a repetative dive, nor the previous dive had an "Attention" warning tacked on), and there was no explanation before this!  Heck, DM5 is so useless it takes 1-2 hours and repetitive download attempts from DM5 to pull my dives off my dive computer, THEN IT SHOWS DIVES THAT WERE AT 60 FEET AS BEING AT 180 FEET!!  And last time I went to Suunto's tech support, they had me download and old version, then always have me disconnect from the internet when I start DM - to avoid being upgraded.  Yeah, no lie!!!  Yeah, Subsurface gets it right, but Suunto's own product can't!  Anyway, thanks for the explanation, I'll be far less worried in the future.