CREST/Deep6 CR4 Excursion

[Melbourne Briscoe]

Is Subsurface support for the new CREST/Deep 6 Excursion CR4 planned?

When might it become available?

Thanks!

[Dirk Hohndel]

I have never heard of this dive computer. We typically support dive computers through

libdivecomputer, so I'm copying its maintainer to see if he is familiar with that device

/D

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[Melbourne Briscoe]

Some links:

https://www.crestdiving.com/dive-computer

https://www.deep6gear.com/deep-6-excursion-dive-computer.html

https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/thoughts-on-deep-6s-new-dc.588937

On Thursday, January 9, 2020 at 11:43:52 AM UTC-5, Dirk wrote:

I have never heard of this dive computer. We typically support dive computers through

libdivecomputer, so I'm copying its maintainer to see if he is familiar with that device

/D

On Jan 8, 2020, at 6:10 PM, Melbourne Briscoe <melbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is Subsurface support for the new CREST/Deep 6 Excursion CR4 planned?

When might it become available?

Thanks!

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[Jef Driesen]

On 2020-01-09 16:43, Dirk Hohndel wrote:
> I have never heard of this dive computer. We typically support dive
> computers through
> libdivecomputer, so I'm copying its maintainer to see if he is
> familiar with that device

I've never heard of this dive computer before. The easiest solution to
get it supported, would be if they can provide us some documentation on
the communication protocol.

Jef

[max erenberg]

What specific documentation on the communication protocol is needed? Deep6 has been very willing to engage their customers requests so far.

[max erenberg]

On another forum it has been reported that the computer (Deep 6 version) has been sent to Subsurface developers, so in time we should see this supported. I believe it was stated that there are some heath issues delaying this implementation. I personally hope these health issues are minor and resolved with a positive outcome

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 8:10:42 PM UTC-6, Melbourne Briscoe wrote:

[Dirk Hohndel]

That was me. My health issues have been ongoing for a while and have slowed me down a bit.

The biggest issue with the Deep6 is that we have test computers, but we have so far received neither documentation for the download format nor a working sample app that we could reverse engineer.

I had spent some time trying to see if it behaves similar to older Cressi divecomputers that we support, but didn't get anywhere at all with that (which may be just bad luck on my part - it's entirely possible that it's just "on little thing" that is preventing me from connecting to the device)

I reached out to Deep6 again last week, reminding them that we are currently stuck...

/D

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[Matt]

Have you heard anything back from Deep6? I sent their customer service a question recently, it seemed like they were optimistic it was something that would be resolved soon. 

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 6:49:33 PM UTC-5, Dirk wrote:

That was me. My health issues have been ongoing for a while and have slowed me down a bit.

The biggest issue with the Deep6 is that we have test computers, but we have so far received neither documentation for the download format nor a working sample app that we could reverse engineer.

I had spent some time trying to see if it behaves similar to older Cressi divecomputers that we support, but didn't get anywhere at all with that (which may be just bad luck on my part - it's entirely possible that it's just "on little thing" that is preventing me from connecting to the device)

I reached out to Deep6 again last week, reminding them that we are currently stuck...

/D

On Aug 3, 2020, at 11:30 AM, max erenberg  wrote:

On another forum it has been reported that the computer (Deep 6 version) has been sent to Subsurface developers, so in time we should see this supported. I believe it was stated that there are some heath issues delaying this implementation. I personally hope these health issues are minor and resolved with a positive outcome

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 8:10:42 PM UTC-6, Melbourne Briscoe wrote:

Is Subsurface support for the new CREST/Deep 6 Excursion CR4 planned?

When might it become available?

Thanks!

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[Dirk Hohndel]

I had really positive interactions with them. But the crux is that there is neither a working sample app for dive download, nor a documentation of the download protocol.

And without one or the other I simply don't even know how to get started. Yes, I can see the device on Bluetooth - no, strangely it doesn't allow me to even talk to it via USB cable.

But other than that... I don't know how to continue without that documentation.

/D

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[Melbourne Briscoe]

I downloaded and installed the "C- Mel B.rest CR-4 Upgrader" from Google Play, and it did indeed connect to my Deep 6 Excursion, but I stopped it for fear it would mess up the Excursion. The point is, it talked to the device. No problem with BT.

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 4:54 PM Dirk Hohndel <di...@hohndel.org> wrote:

I had really positive interactions with them. But the crux is that there is neither a working sample app for dive download, nor a documentation of the download protocol.

And without one or the other I simply don't even know how to get started. Yes, I can see the device on Bluetooth - no, strangely it doesn't allow me to even talk to it via USB cable.

But other than that... I don't know how to continue without that documentation.

/D

On Aug 20, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Matt <ma...@palmstrategic.com> wrote:

Have you heard anything back from Deep6? I sent their customer service a question recently, it seemed like they were optimistic it was something that would be resolved soon.  

On Monday, August 3, 2020 at 6:49:33 PM UTC-5, Dirk wrote:

That was me. My health issues have been ongoing for a while and have slowed me down a bit.

The biggest issue with the Deep6 is that we have test computers, but we have so far received neither documentation for the download format nor a working sample app that we could reverse engineer.

I had spent some time trying to see if it behaves similar to older Cressi divecomputers that we support, but didn't get anywhere at all with that (which may be just bad luck on my part - it's entirely possible that it's just "on little thing" that is preventing me from connecting to the device)

I reached out to Deep6 again last week, reminding them that we are currently stuck...

/D

On Aug 3, 2020, at 11:30 AM, max erenberg  wrote:

On another forum it has been reported that the computer (Deep 6 version) has been sent to Subsurface developers, so in time we should see this supported. I believe it was stated that there are some heath issues delaying this implementation. I personally hope these health issues are minor and resolved with a positive outcome

On Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 8:10:42 PM UTC-6, Melbourne Briscoe wrote:

Is Subsurface support for the new CREST/Deep 6 Excursion CR4 planned?

When might it become available?

Thanks!

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[max erenberg]

I just got an email that the genesis centauri app is available to download for android and iOS. This is basically the same computer. This may give a starting point to get the download protocol ?

[Melbourne Briscoe]

New info from Deep6 owner: 

https://www.scubaboard.com/community/threads/thoughts-on-deep-6s-new-dc.588937/page-65#post-9125002

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[max erenberg]

This is the app for The Crest, Genesis, and Deep6 version of the computer. The app is called "Dive Story" and is available on the Apple app store and whatever the android store is. 

[Melbourne Briscoe]

I'm guessing some wires got crossed. The discussion on ScubaBoard suggests Dirk threw in the towel before he got the recent, critical info from Deep 6, and before the release of DiveStory. If so, maybe things can still get back on track. There is a large Subsurface user community who likes this simple computer and now that they can download it to the DiveStory app on BT, it would seem Subsurface is just almost there. Not the right time to stop!

[Dirk Hohndel]

I respectfully disagree.

There will be no support for the Deep6 in Subsurface.

End of story.

/D

[Melbourne Briscoe]

There are a lot of Subsurface users who are getting left out in the cold because of what sounds like crossed wires between Dirk and Deep6. Dirk got the three computers from Deep 6 some time ago, but did not get the desired documentation with them. In fact, that has only been available within the last two weeks or so, since the DiveStory App availability and the firmware upgrade to the computer. I suspect there are a number of competent Excursion and Subsurface users who would be delighted to help, perhaps by upgrading the units for Dirk so he doesn't have to do that himself. Sure, there can be personality clashes between suppliers and manufacturers and technical folks, but in the end it is we end users who are the losers. Dirk, is there no way to make this happen?

[Landon]

As previously stated, Deep6 stands by its commitment to provide support and help as necessary. 

With the recent app release and firmware updates, there is no reason why the unit cannot be supported in Subsurface. Hopefully in the future the developers/maintainers will change their minds.

/L

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 8:29:48 PM UTC-4, Dirk wrote:

[Jason Bramwell]

Firstly all of this is my own personal view, I in no way speak for Subsurface or the development team.

Let’s not try and guilt-trip the developers into adding this support, that’s what some of these posts look like from an outsiders point of view.

Pull requests to Subsurface code are of course accepted. So if Deep6 Can make this work with libdivecomputer (probably needed if this was to work with other dive log software) then Subsurface should be able to make use of it too. The Subsurface team from what I’ve seen usually like two-way effort though rather than just being given a watch/computer and asked/told to support it.

Deep6 are the only ones making money out of this product so I think it’s a bit unfair to use the Subsurface development team as a free application development resource.

Jason

Sent from my iPhone

On 25 Sep 2020, at 03:37, Landon <landon....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Chris Richardson]

Nobody is trying to guilt trip anybody into anything. We (Deep 6) were trying to be as helpful as possible to get subsurface what we could, not to try and make money off it (Subsurface) but just because people (including my partner) like and use Subsurface. We were very open with Subsurface and how and why this all blew up like it did is still a mystery to us.

As far as free application development, actually, that is part of what we pay for from the OEM on the unit, who has, albeit slower than anticipated, developed an app. We never wanted Subsurface to develope an app in lieu of us having one. Landon and I both like open source platforms personally as well.

Very best,

Chris Richardson
President Deep 6

[JB2Cool]

Thanks for the reply Chris, as I say, i don't speak for Subsurface, i'm just a user, that was just how it came across to me.

Jason

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[Chris Richardson]

Fair enough, I just wanted to clarify that we are in no way trying to shame anybody into anything. Honestly, I am perplexed by all of this, even more so when it was declared the Deep 6 will NEVER be supported in Subsurface, which I guess means that Subsurface is moving off GPLv2.  I would actually like to know what we did that was so egregious that all this had to come to pass, but ultimately, it is not at all in my control. Right now, it's users that are getting punished.

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[Dirk Hohndel]

Wow.

Just.

Wow.

So, let's try and summarize what's happening.

On June 8, Stuart V introduced me to Landon as representative of a new dive computer vendor, trying to figure out how to get Subsurface support.

I suggested email conversations and actually sent a few emails, Landon insisted on talking on the phone instead. Sure, we did that.

After that conversation I was under the impression that I would receive two dive computers for testing and documentation of the download protocol and download format.

Landon had pointed out that the documentation might take a week or two as he needed to reach a certain person to get this put together.

Why didn't we do this via email? No idea. But other than that, a fairly typical interaction when I'm talking to dive computer vendors.

On June 22 I followed up since I hadn't heard back from Landon or Chris (who had been added to the conversation). A few days later I received two dive computers in brown card board boxes and nothing else.

On August 1 once again I followed up asking again about the documentation, quote " On the phone you mentioned that you were going to send me a basic document with the description of the download protocol " to which I got a response on August 5 that included an app that was able to update the firmware of the dive computer. Not at all what I had asked about.

I responded that same date saying, quote "Sorry for the misunderstanding".

Things remained quiet after this, with occasional message from a random Deep6 customer, asking me / us about the state of support.

About a week ago things changed. I have received more than a dozen messages from people, asking things from "what's the plan for a Subsurface release with Deep 6 support" to "what the fuck is taking you guys so long, I bought this thing only because it said it was supported by Subsurface" (end quote). One of the nicer emails on Wednesday (two days ago) pointed me to a thread on Scubaboard. In that thread it was clear that a number of people expected imminent Subsurface support. And I noticed that while Chris and Landon responded to many messages in the thread, they had not corrected that assumption - as a matter of fact, I hadn't heard from them since August 5.

So I stated Wednesday evening (full quote of my post)

"

I don't believe there will be Subsurface support any time soon
I'm disappointed to say this, but there was clearly a fundamental misunderstanding when we were approached about support.
I will reach out to return the dive computers that were offered to facilitate support.

"

Very simple message, very neutral, picking up on exactly the same language I used six weeks ago.

Yesterday afternoon, while I was in a work meeting, my phone rings. I didn't respond (I'm on a Zoom call). After I was done with work, I tried to call back, no answer, but a text that Landon would call me back shortly.

I went to Scubaboard and saw this post from Landon (full quote of his post)

"

The app and firmware with the ability to load dive logs has only recently been released (It was announced here in this thread not long ago). I was planning on emailing this week to notify you that the new application is now available on both the iOS and Play Store in case you had not seen it. I believe you may easily view a bluetooth log for data import/format and two way communication. The units will need to be updated to the recently release firmware, version 5A, to accomplish this.

What I find disappointing is that you did not reach out to me before making this post as I have made an effort to provide information and data as it becomes available (although admittedly, at times we do get a bit busy). If you feel there is a fundamental misunderstanding, that is unfortunate, as I thought our understanding was clear.

I called today to try to answer any needed questions, but it went to voicemail. Feel free to reach out if you would like any further assistance.

It is both unfortunate and disappointing if subsurface has decided that it does not want to support a dive computer from a company that is actively trying to work with them. However thank you for offering to return the units, but that isn't necessary. Hopefully you will change your mind in the future.

"

I found that post... disappointing. Actually, I found that post rather insulting. And I felt that it was intended to make the company appear in a good light and me in a bad light.

Given the experience so far with Landon I decided that this wasn't what I wanted to spend my time on and texted him "saw your post on scuba board. Don't bother. I'll send back the two dive computers".

Again, in my personal view, a very neutral response, no accusations, just a statement of disengagement.

And to make this transparent to the people on Scubaboard, I responded to Landon's post that I quoted here with (full quote of my post)

"

Yes, there is a very fundamental misunderstanding. I'll send the units back right away. Please send me your address.

"

One of the nicest of all the people who had contacted me in the past week had asked for more details, so I responded to his post as well:

"

Sure, happy to. I told the manufacturer from the beginning that we would need documentation of the communications protocol and the download format. In a phone call that exactly was promised. Even though I followed up in email several times, no more information was sent my way. After I finally gave up and stated so I received a phone call an hour ago that I didn't pick up since I was in a meeting, and 20 minutes later an irate post here in this thread.

I do Subsurface as a hobby in my spare time. I'm not interested in having people yelling at me because I'm offering to do them a favor.

All the best to the customers of Deep6

"

A calm, and IMHO reasonably fair description of what had happened so far.

While I am typing this, I see that Chris has decided to post private emails to Scubaboard.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this point.

I repeat my statement.

This is all a misunderstanding. I expected something different from what Landon expected. I decided to disengage.

I will send back the units at my own cost and walk away from this conversation.

I never accused anyone of something egregious, I never asked for an apology, I never asked to keep the dive computers.

The statement below of Subsurface moving away from GPLv2 is clearly intended as another way to ramp up the pressure. I respectfully decline to engage.

There is, however, one small statement that I will make.

The Subsurface infrastructure runs on my personal servers, I pay all the bills, I pay for the domains, the certificates, the bandwidth, I create all the binaries, all the announcements, do a fair part of the support, answer questions.

Anyone is welcome to take the Subsurface sources and add support for whatever dive computer they chose to them.

The binaries that I distribute will not support Deep6 dive computers. And the backend cloud infrastructure that I provide will not be available to users of any third party software that is used by Deep6.

Have a good weekend everyone. I will go back to my day job.

/D

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