Save and restore dives (move without a cloud)?

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Ulrich Windl

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Oct 29, 2022, 6:22:15 PM10/29/22
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Hi!

Big disappointment: I don't want to use a cloud service, and I don't have a private cloud, but still I'd like to access my data.
When I bought a new Android phone, I used a "phone clone" tool to copy my apps and settings, and for many apps the data were there after that, but not for subsurface!
Another app where the data was not present was Signal, but Signal has a built-in function that allowed to transfer the data directly from phone to phone.

So I wonder: Why doesn't have subsurface at least a function to export and import data to a file and from a file?

I examined the Android/data directory for a data file, but could not find one (maybe Android 12 is hiding the files from me).
On Windows I found an XML file where the data is.

Subsurface is open software, but it seems to hide the data from the user; that's bad.

Regards,
Ulrich

Dirk Hohndel

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Oct 29, 2022, 6:42:58 PM10/29/22
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Well - so many things I could say to this.

But let's keep it simple. Maybe this is the wrong app for you? It clearly doesn't have a feature that you absolutely must have - so why use a bad app in the first place?

/D

Bob Belbeck

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Oct 29, 2022, 6:53:51 PM10/29/22
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I may be misinterpreting this. I have Subsurface on both my phone and PC. On my PC I simply click on export. My Android phone works the same way, click on export. In either case you end up with a backup wherever you decide to move it or save it.

Ulrich Windl

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Oct 29, 2022, 7:19:29 PM10/29/22
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Dirk,

I see that you don't like my comment, so here is my reasoning:
I have my main file on my desktop PC, and I use the android app as a kind of dive notepad, i.e. I only enter the essential data that my dive computer does not store, and I'm likely to forget until I'm back at home to enter the data on the desktop. (Remember: Let _me_ decide how I use the software)
Why I don't like the cloud: If I have my data locally, I'm responsible for it, and I have control on it. Also when I'm abroad (say outside the EU any roaming data is just horribly expensive (if you have a reliable connection at all).

I see that all companies try to "educate" people that the future is the cloud, I'm old enough to know that I don't need that, because the only reason is that those companies want my money (and my data).

Honestly: What's so hard to add an "export to file" and "import from file" to the app?

Regards,
Ulrich
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Ulrich Windl

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Oct 29, 2022, 7:26:46 PM10/29/22
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Hi!

In https://subsurface-divelog.org/documentation/subsurface-4-user-manual/ I see "7.1. Exporting the dive log" and "15.3. Import" that says:
Import from dive computer - Import dive information from a dive computer.

Import Log Files - Import dive information from a file in in a Subsurface-compatible format.

Import dive sites: Import a XML dive site file that someone else shared with you.

Import from Divelogs.de - Import dive information from www.Divelogs.de.

However in the mobile app I see no "Import"; I only see "Export". So assuming I can export the file from the mobile app, how can I import it? It seems Android 12 makes it very hard to move files into an app's data folder...

Regards,
Ulrich
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Bob Belbeck

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Oct 29, 2022, 7:40:32 PM10/29/22
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I just go to file, open dive log, and chose the exported file.

Dirk Hohndel

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Oct 29, 2022, 7:42:01 PM10/29/22
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Ulrich

> On Oct 29, 2022, at 4:19 PM, Ulrich Windl wrote:
>
> I see that you don't like my comment, so here is my reasoning:

Actually, I'm perfectly happy with your comment. We get a comment like this every few month. And I tell every single person the same thing - please use a different dive log.

> I have my main file on my desktop PC, and I use the android app as a kind of dive notepad, i.e. I only enter the essential data that my dive computer does not store, and I'm likely to forget until I'm back at home to enter the data on the desktop. (Remember: Let _me_ decide how I use the software)

Remember, you are not a customer. You are a user of an open source project.
Please allow the developers to decide what they are spending their time on. None of us have so far shown any interest in creating an import function on mobile devices. Entitled people lecturing us what we have to do is not going to increase the likelihood of that happening.

> Why I don't like the cloud: If I have my data locally, I'm responsible for it, and I have control on it. Also when I'm abroad (say outside the EU any roaming data is just horribly expensive (if you have a reliable connection at all).
>
> I see that all companies try to "educate" people that the future is the cloud, I'm old enough to know that I don't need that, because the only reason is that those companies want my money (and my data).

There is no company. I don't care how you want to keep your data. I personally make a free cloud service available for users who want to use it - and those who don't, I'm perfectly happy to see use a different dive log app.

So please don't "educate" me what I have to do for you in my free time.

> Honestly: What's so hard to add an "export to file" and "import from file" to the app?

Well, if it's so easy, why don't you do it? I mean, it's open source, simply add the function and enjoy.

/D

Ulrich Windl

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Oct 30, 2022, 12:46:05 PM10/30/22
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Hi!

Sorry, I can't find that (see attached screenshot, German).

Regards,
Ulrich

30.10.2022 01:40:32 Bob Belbeck <bbell...@gmail.com>:

> I just go to file, open dive log, and chose the exported file.
>
> On Saturday, October 29, 2022 at 6:26:46 PM UTC-5 Ulrich...@rz.uni-regensburg.de wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> In https://subsurface-divelog.org/documentation/subsurface-4-user-manual/ I see "7.1. Exporting the dive log" and "15.3. Import" that says:
>> Import from dive computer - Import dive information from a dive computer.
>>
>> Import Log Files - Import dive information from a file in in a Subsurface-compatible format.
>>
>> Import dive sites: Import a XML dive site file that someone else shared with you.
>>
>> Import from Divelogs.de - Import dive information from www.Divelogs.de[http://www.Divelogs.de].
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/subsurface-divelog/6965c4a6-0496-452b-8c8d-960c656a1f0fn%40googlegroups.com[https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/subsurface-divelog/6965c4a6-0496-452b-8c8d-960c656a1f0fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer].
Screenshot_2022-10-30-17-43-58-36_dae03a2e31374b2f3a954b7d93c1724d.jpg

Ulrich Windl

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Oct 30, 2022, 12:55:59 PM10/30/22
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Dirk,

sorry, but this mail program doesn't allow inline comments, so I'll summarize:
It's OK to implement what you want, but if many users eish a thing, why not think about it? Doesn't it make you happy if the users are happy?

Also I think reading and writing s local file is less complex than doing it on a cloud.

Assuming I'd implement it; would it be accepted?

Regards,
Ulrich

30.10.2022 01:41:57 Dirk Hohndel <di...@hohndel.org>:
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Robert Helling

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Oct 30, 2022, 3:04:36 PM10/30/22
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Ulrich,


On 30. Oct 2022, at 17:55, Ulrich Windl <Ulrich...@rz.uni-regensburg.de> wrote:

Also I think reading and writing s local file is less complex than doing it on a cloud.

Assuming I'd implement it; would it be accepted?

I cannot speak for Dirk but based on previous incarnations of this discussion: Just writing to a file is quite error prone like for example people accidentally overwriting information. Nobody here feels any inclination to deal with that (complaints or requests for help) in particular since often enough those will be futil. 

The „cloud“ format, however, is git internally. That has the advantage that information is never lost and changes can be rolled back or old state can be recovered. This allows people (and Dirk in particular) to actually help people with support requests.

Now you decide, you don’t like this format (possibly because the combination of letters with „clo“ in the beginning and „ud“ in the end triggers some bad experiences). And that’s totally fine. 

It’s just that Subsurface does not have too many people who can do support. So it was decided to concentrate efforts on one file format that we make sure works really well and allows you to recover from mishaps. And not something where enough people will shoot themselves in the foot. 

Yes, that involves that your super private and secret dive log information goes through a computer that is under Dirk’s control. So you have to take his word that he will not look at it without your explicit permission (which I understand he will not). But hey, you seems to at least consider running a binary on your device and trust your dive data to it that was created by, tata, Dirk Hohndel. To me it seems sending your log though his git server does not significantly increase your attack surface.

So here is a hint: If you consider changing Subsurface yourself (which you should, developers are always welcome!), it is probably easier to patch out the server name of Dirk’s server and run a git server by yourself to communicate with. That will give you the best of both worlds: It keeps your data under your own control while maintaining a file format what can be rolled back and which can deal with simultaneous edits on different devices.

And since I am writing to you and not Dirk you don’t get the sermon on how mysteriously it’s always us Germans complaining about sending data through a central server (with the word „cloud“ attached to it).

Best
Robert

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Dirk Hohndel

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Oct 30, 2022, 5:56:15 PM10/30/22
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We've thought about it. And ended up not doing it.
Robert does a good job summarizing why.
With the cloud I usually can help users when things go sideways.
When they import and export XML files I really can't.

That said, if you were to implement file import and export on mobile (or even on Android only), I'd certainly look at it and consider it. I wouldn't accept any code that requires a rooted device - but things that use the current official Android interfaces to access files... sure... I'd add a loud warning for people using it, but assuming there are no glaring issues with the code, I'd merge this.

/D

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Ulrich Windl

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Oct 31, 2022, 3:37:05 AM10/31/22
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>>> Dirk Hohndel <di...@hohndel.org> schrieb am 30.10.2022 um 22:56 in Nachricht
<A1E0B4A1-2D1D-4C21...@hohndel.org>:

> We've thought about it. And ended up not doing it.
> Robert does a good job summarizing why.
> With the cloud I usually can help users when things go sideways.

Hi!

OK that's interesting, especially as you said before that users are not customers, but just users you don't care much about.
I'm an old-time Emacs user, and I never had any data loss with it's file-only interface in more than 30 years. Of course there are always users that do stupid thing and complain about the software afterwards.

> When they import and export XML files I really can't.
>
> That said, if you were to implement file import and export on mobile (or
> even on Android only), I'd certainly look at it and consider it. I wouldn't
> accept any code that requires a rooted device - but things that use the
> current official Android interfaces to access files... sure... I'd add a loud
> warning for people using it, but assuming there are no glaring issues with
> the code, I'd merge this.

Unfortunately I'm not much of a diving freak, and also no Android programmer, but once I feel like it, I could give it a try.
(I just like nice software)

Regards,
Ulrich

>
> /D
>
>> On Oct 30, 2022, at 9:55 AM, Ulrich Windl wrote:
>>
>> sorry, but this mail program doesn't allow inline comments, so I'll
> summarize:
>> It's OK to implement what you want, but if many users eish a thing, why not
> think about it? Doesn't it make you happy if the users are happy?
>>
>> Also I think reading and writing s local file is less complex than doing it
> on a cloud.
>>
>> Assuming I'd implement it; would it be accepted?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ulrich
>>
>> 30.10.2022 01:41:57 Dirk Hohndel <di...@hohndel.org <mailto:di...@hohndel.org>>:
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