Buddy Verification

[Bob Barker]

Guys,

Would a buddy verification type feature be possible? Where a buddy who also uses subsurface could link or tick off a dive?

Thanks

Bob

[Jason Bramwell]

What purpose does this serve? It’s your dive log, if you said you dived with me then why would anyone else care?

Jason

Sent from my iPhone

On 5 Jul 2021, at 13:42, Bob Barker <barke...@gmail.com> wrote:

Guys,

Would a buddy verification type feature be possible? Where a buddy who also uses subsurface could link or tick off a dive?

Thanks

Bob

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[Bob Barker]

I asked if it could be done, not if you wanted it. All log books have a box for buddys signature, it would serve that purpose

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Bob Barker 

Ex Royal Navy, Happy Husband, Father of 2 adults, Grandad, Arsenal Fan, SCUBA diver and Engineer

   

There are only 10 types of people in this world. Those who understand binary and those who don't!

There's no place like http://127.0.0.1

 

[rick.warren4]

I agree with Jason. Unless you are either attaching your dive computer on a line and dropping it overboard the natural assumption would be that you were with the computer when it went diving.

The only signatures I ever got were from instructors. That was before the training agencies computerized their records and I was worried that my file could get lost or destroyed. Those signatures were just so I could prove I took the class, if I had to.

I have not had a regular dive buddy sign a log since the 1990's and it has never been an issue anywhere I have been diving.  I do capture my dive buddies name on all my log entries but, I do not have them sign. 

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[Doug Junkins]

Bob,

The technology exists that such a feature is possible, but the question is really whether it is worth the development effort to add such a feature given the limited development resources available for this open source project. There are many other features that I think would benefit a larger number of users than what you are suggesting. The great thing about open source software, though, is that if you disagree with that, you can code the feature yourself.

-Doug

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[Robert C. Helling]

This comes up every now and then. But JB2Cool's question is valid: What exactly do you expect from such a feature? Yes, digital signatures exist, so we could implement some key management and have others sign your log entries (non-trivial though to make it work as expected). But that would probably mean you can no longer edit the dive without invalidating the signature. Do you want that? Or even better, since Subsurface stores you log in git, the current state of the log already has a cryptographic hash. So your buddy could digitally sign that hash (you wouldn't even need subsurface for it, GPG could do that for you). To support this, you could make Subsurface display the hash of the current commit. 

But then the question is: If you want such a digital signature, whom are you going to show this proof? Maybe some dive shop or boat operator to prove a certain amount of experience. If it is a digital signature, that dive should would need means to verify the signature, otherwise it's completely useless. So the should would need to see your log in that particular commit and verify the signature with the public key of the signer. Honestly, I don't think, this is a realistic scenario. 

Alternatively, Subsurface could display "signed by: John McBuddy". But how is that different from the current dive leader/buddy fields: You (as the owner of the log) can write there whatever you want.

What I do is to print the dives from my log and keep them in a binder. And whenever I feel like that, I let a buddy sign an old dive, just as an occasion to reminisce that day. Some dive buddies also have individual stamps that they use with their signature in you log. But of course, this only works on paper. If you wanted everything in the electronic version, you could take a picture of that signed paper log entry and attach that to your dive. Thinking about it, this is probably closest to what I guess was what you originally intended. 

If not, you should explain in more detail what you envision. In particular what you intend to do with the signature (where you expect to use it) and how you see the procedure of signing and verification of the signature.

[Bob Barker]

Its interesting that everyone has forgotten that they learned to dive, and at that time kept a log, signed by an instructor / buddy. We all have numerous buddies that we dive with as we become more experienced. Some of us think so highly of ourselves that we think a simple question needs a fucking stupid answer. I asked if a feature could be added. Even as advanced divers, some proof of dives is required to complete the next qualification, this would help.

This is similar to the I've got an eon steel, can it do this question, when people feel the need to say you should have a shearwater......whats the point? The answer to my question is yes it can, no it cant. I didn;t ask for what other people thought.

[JB2Cool]

Ok, yes it could be added (you can do pretty much anything with enough time and resources) but no, i doubt this feature is likely to be implemented.

JB

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[Robert C. Helling]

Yes, I have signatures in my paper log. But again: How do you expect this to work? You do a dive with your instructor, download the data from your dive computer (or hers since a beginner might not have their own dive computer) to Subsurface, add notes and all the other information. And then? What is the instructor supposed to do? In what form do you expect the signature? Cryptographically as outlined above? With some pen or finger on a device?  Typing the initials in an extra field?  What kind of user interface would you like us to implement? 

And then, for your next course, you show your log to the next instructor. What is she expected to see? What kind of data (image of signature for example) is going to make your electronic log more credible than without? Yes, handwritten signatures in paper logs are harder to copy (to steal entries from some other divers log to show qualification that you don't have), but with electronic logs, it's all just 0 and 1s and those are easier to copy. But if you copy a logbook entry from somebody else, what stops you to copy the electronic signature as well?

 

These are honest questions. Come up with good ideas and answers, if they are innovative enough, this might convince somebody to invest time on this.

Best

Robert

[Michael]

Why not write the date, name of dive site and buddy name on your dive slate; then take a selfie with your buddy and attach the photo to your subsurface entry? If you're logging a class then take a photo, or get a scan, of the completed paperwork and attach to your entry in subsurface?

mar

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[Willem Ferguson]

Bob,

I assume what you want is a system akin to the paper-based one where
your buddy signs to VERIFY the dive. Why should your buddy sign the dive
record? Because someone else may want to see that you really dived that
particular dive and that you have not manufactured a fraudulent dive. I
suspect this is the basic reasoning behind letting a buddy sign off a
dive record.

Now, think of the practical application of implementing this in
software. There would need to be a secure system allowing someone to
sign off a dive. This assumes that your buddy who signs off the dive is
also part of a wider secure system, verifying the buddy's identity.
After all, one could in theory manufacture a dive and sign it off as a
"buddy" yourself. Writing code for such a secure system would therefore
not be trivial at all and would probably require an independent app in
itself.

In my experience a dive profile generated by a dive computer has been
accepted by every dive agency that I have dived with and which required
some form of dive verification. The profile itself is usually sufficient
proof that such a dive has been dived. Using Subsurface-mobile, your
dive log is portable and you can produce dive verification anywhere.
There is therefore no need for any independent verification that a dive
has actually taken place. The more important verification is one's dive
certifications/qualifications. I keep these on my mobile phone as well
and I have needed them many times. My dive log was required for
verification only on 2 or 3 occasions. When using software that records
dive profiles from a dive computer, the system of signing of a dive
really becomes redundant.

Kind regards,

willem



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[Mathew Molsberry]

Hi Bob,

My apologies for being late to the thread.

Subsurface makes it pretty easy to export your dive data to divelogs.de which is a sort of logging and social media site for divers. It has a buddy verification feature, so if you can convince all your dive buddies to use divelogs.de, you can all verify each others' logs. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Mathew

[Bob Barker]

Thanks matt.

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