Bill No. 28-0238

[Forecast Consulting, LLC]

I am requesting an objective analysis/discussion on the following public document-pro and con.  Suggestions are welcome.

 

Your input is greatly appreciated. 

 

Thank you all,

Jacob Spell

President

 

PO BOX 6481 ST THOMAS VI 00804

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email is confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal of offense. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. Internet communications are not secure and therefore the sender does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.

 

[Frederick Espinosa]

I'd say its a great improvement over the situation we have now at least.
Also, does it mean you can side skirt the local coupon system by purchasing in another state?
...Or does the dealer then have to get permission from the VIPD before releasing the weapon?

-Fred

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[Jacob Spell]

Good question and thank you for your input.  I view this as the coupon system would still be in place for administrative and documenting purposes for the VIPD.  I wont leave this up for chance however and make sure this is clarified before committee and in committee.

Thanks.

-Jacob 

[DragonRich]

Why do I feel like this is a bad idea?  

TSA already has rules for how a firearm can be transported (see excerpt below) posted on their site.  While this Bill offers what may seem like a good way to get a firearm into the Territory quickly if I'm living here and I'm wanting to order a new firearm - it does nothing but complicate the situation if my cousin in Georgia is coming here for the 4th of July weekend with his firearm.  Assuming the person has a Carry permit in whatever state they are leaving and lets say they agree to give up this firearm for a few days so they can have it mailed Dealer to Dealer to the Virgin Islands; what hoops, if any, must they jump through once in the Territory to get access to their Firearm?

In the scenario I presented (cousin visiting 4th of July weekend) if there is an office that he must then go to in order to get anything official done in order to claim his firearm that office will more than likely be closed over that weekend.  Will the licensed dealer be available during the holiday weekend?  What if his flight to go back to Georgia is on Tuesday morning; will he have enough time to get his firearm and prepare for his departure?  

It all just seems complicated when there is already an established (and legal) method of transporting your personal firearms when travelling.  I feel this law isn't assisting gun owners as much as it is introducing further bureaucracy to our lives.  I can only see this as "good" if it is in addition to the already established, federally recognized means of transporting firearms.  

Traveling with Special Items

Firearms & Ammunition

 
Photo of a firearm improperly packaged.

You may only transport firearms, ammunition and firearm parts in your checked baggage. Firearms, ammunition and firearm parts are prohibited from carry-on baggage.

There are certain limited exceptions for law enforcement officers who may fly armed by meeting the requirements of Title 49 CFR § 1544.219. Law enforcement officers should read our policies on traveling with guns.

The key regulatory requirements to transporting firearms, firearm parts or ammunition in checked baggage are:

• You must declare all firearms to the airline during the ticket counter check-in process.
• The firearm must be unloaded.
• The firearm must be in a hard-sided container.
• The container must be locked. A locked container is defined as one that completely secures the firearm from access by anyone other than you. Cases that can be pulled open with little effort do not meet this criterion. The pictures provided here illustrate the difference between a properly packaged and an improperly packaged firearm.
• We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain in the area designated by the aircraft operator or TSA representative to take the key back after the container is cleared for transportation. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft.
• You must securely pack any ammunition in fiber (such as cardboard), wood or metal boxes or other packaging that is specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
• You can't use firearm magazines/clips for packing ammunition unless they completely and securely enclose the ammunition (e.g., by securely covering the exposed portions of the magazine or by securely placing the magazine in a pouch, holder, holster or lanyard).
• You may carry the ammunition in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as you pack it as described above.
• You can't bring black powder or percussion caps used with black-powder type firearms in either your carry-on or checked baggage.

 
Photo of a firearm properly packaged.

We and other authorities strictly enforce these regulations. Violations can result in criminal prosecution and civil penalties of up to $10,000 per violation.

Airlines may have their own additional requirements on the carriage of firearms and the amount of ammunition that you may have in your checked baggage. Therefore,travelers should also contact the airline regarding its firearm and ammunition carriage policies.

Also, please note that many other countries have different laws that address transportation and possession of firearms. If you are traveling internationally, please check with the authorities at your destination about their requirements.

http://sites.google.com/site/dragonrich/

"I do not [always] agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
Voltaire

"Don't argue with idiots.......they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!"
Unknown

[Forecast Consulting, LLC]

Thank you, I appreciate that and this is the dialogue we are looking for, here is why we have this document:

 

Licensed owners in the States are importing firearms when they are not licensed in the VI.

 

You import a gun that you have a concealed carry permit for in the State you reside, but it is not reciprocal in the VI.  So your legal firearm is now unlicensed in the VI.  Remember the case last year in STX, person imported his licensed firearm legally, checked them in states, and when he left he checked them but did not have a permit-arrested?.  The premise here is that if you import a firearm to the territory and you do not have a VI permit you have to go FFL to FFL.  If you have a permit or reciprocity you have no problem. 

 

This was the intention behind the draft.  Creating more bureaucracy is something NONE of us need.  I look forward to the benefit of your thoughts.

 

 

Jacob Spell

President

 

PO BOX 6481 ST THOMAS VI 00804

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email is confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal of offense. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender. Internet communications are not secure and therefore the sender does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited.

 

[NATIVEGUN]

STX Gun owners,
I applaud the senator for his good intentions, but there is no need
for this bill. Anyone who owns a firearm anywhere in the United
States, can already [legally] send a firearm from one dealer to
another.

In addition, ANYONE can legally bring a firearm into the territory,
even if they are not authorized to legally possess one. Confused
yet? We can discuss later.

In regards to the quoted statement below, this information is not
accurate. Read title 23 chapter 5 sec 460. Ths is one of the most
violated rights that firearm owners are subjected too. Over 20 years
ago I brought a rifle in from the states. I told Public Safety I
brought it into the territory, I gave them an additional firearms
application already filled out, informed them that I had no intention
of turning it over to them, and requested an additional license. End
of story! Know your rights people!

"You import a gun that you have a concealed carry permit for in the
State you
reside, but it is not reciprocal in the VI. So your legal firearm is
now
unlicensed in the VI."

Jacob,
Get my number from VI gunfighter or send me a private email. I can
save the senator alot of time if he is willing to talk..

Tace et Face NativeGun

[rashad valmont]

I am a prime example of someone who was a victim to the Virgin Islands corrupt system. I  am in the military and have a concealed gun license. i was arrested and my firearm confiscated NATIVE GUN finally received my gun after 6 months of back and forth with the crooked officer stout. Is she fired yet?

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From: NATIVEGUN <nati...@aol.com>
To: STXGUNOWNERS <stxgun...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, June 14, 2010 9:24:26 PM

Subject: Re: Bill No. 28-0238

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[Jacob Spell]

VIPD indicates otherwise, but I am suspect of many of the internal policies they practice-i.e. number of firearms you can own, home inspections, etc. and so on, I would like to discuss this further if possible.  I am in STX today, maybe this afternoon if you have a chance or give me a call-(340) 998-9415.  

I really appreciate the dialogue from everyone.

Thanks,

Jacob

[Scott Whitcher]

I appreciate both that someone is trying to make our laws more workable and having an opportunity to comment prior to their inactment, but I must point out that between 39 and 42 of the 50 states don't require firearm licensing, some not even for concealed carry. There is no need, therefore, many have no license.
 
I also believe it worth noting that these seem to be the states with the least problem with gun crimes. It seems that those political divisions that make legal gun ownership most difficult are the ones that have the worst crime problem. It has also come to pass that as states have passed laws easing the legal carrying of guns, that crime has gone down. I believe the pattern clearly shows the truth of the old adage of "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns".
 
Part of the problem with our current law is that no one seems to have recognized that it is easy to get a firearm into the territory. The hard part is getting it back out or making it legal, once here. Every state with registration with the exception of New York currently has a grace period, where people moving in or just acquiring a firearm may register it, without fear of their registration being denied unless they are already Federally disqualified.  
 
We need to repeal our current non-working gun laws and let the people of the Virgin Islands experience freedon as outlined in the US Constitution. We can then expect to see a reduction in crime, as have other states when they stopped trying to make criminals out of law abiding citizens and started concentrating their enforcement on real criminals.
 
Thank You,
Scott Whitcher 
St. Croix

references: 
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/gov_gun_law_per-government-gun-laws-permits 
 
http://www.ammoland.com/tag/national-gun-registration/
 

 

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[Calvin Schmidt]

what happen no more talkin on site????nobody sayin nothing
 
> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:24:26 -0700

> Subject: Re: Bill No. 28-0238

> From: nati...@aol.com
> To: stxgun...@googlegroups.com

[Jereme Crouthamel]

Maybe they moved and didn't tell us. LOL

Jereme Crouthamel

340-690-1358

jcrou...@hovensa.com

[barry.g...@gmail.com]

I have laryngitis, sorry.

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

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From: Jereme Crouthamel <jere...@hotmail.com>

Sender: stxgun...@googlegroups.com

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:09:36 -0400

To: stxgun...@googlegroups.com<stxgun...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: stxgun...@googlegroups.com

[Calvin Schmidt]

i will brake the ice what about that judge in stt about that 47k and the guns
 

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Subject: Re: Bill No. 28-0238

From: jere...@hotmail.com

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:09:36 -0400
To: stxgun...@googlegroups.com

[peter]

Jacob sent me a draft of this bill months ago. It confused me. It doesn't really do anything, that I can see. It is already legal for guns to be sent to FFLs. I told Jacob all this.

I'm surprised to see it going forward....

[peter]

The site has always been fairly quiet.

I tried to post something that I thought might be of interest to gunowners a month ago,.  I figured some traffic on the list would be a good thing.

A member jumped all over me about the post, saying it wasn't what the STX gunowers was about.

I have been disinclined to post since then. I don't want to make that mistake again.

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Calvin Schmidt
Sent: Aug 12, 2010 3:13 AM
To: de gun man
Subject: RE: Bill No. 28-0238

[Calvin Schmidt]

i think u need to post any thing that u like. the v.i need help people doin what hell feel like. like v.i have NO LAW

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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 07:06:25 -0700
From: vigunf...@earthlink.net
To: stxgun...@googlegroups.com

[Forecast Consulting, LLC]

The problem that was presented to us was the ambiguity in the vi code relating to unregistered weapons and unlicensed owners entering the territory.  The bill closes this loophole, so that any firearm or individual that is not registered in the vi has to go through an ffl.  Right now, registered owners in the states can bring firearms into the territory-as soon as they go through baggage claim they are in violation of the law-we are proposing this be changed in the current bill.  

We also added an amendment to clearly define reciprocity and which states are reciprocal to the VI and propose to take out the provision that the commissioner can arbitrarily make rules and regs-among other clarifying language.  We feel comfortable that these changes will provide greater consistency, especially when commissioners of police change.

We are open to further amendments to current statute-I already suggested/requested repealing all language and inserting similar language to that of the State of Vermont, but was vehemently denied.

Regards, 

Jacob Spell

President

Forecast Consulting 

(340) 998-9415

[Forecast Consulting, LLC]

I do want to thank John Canagata, Otto Brown, and Mike Sheesley for their testimony.

Again, all amendments, suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks,

Jacob Spell

President

Forecast Consulting 

(340) 998-9415

[peter]

Ah, the reciprocity makes all the difference. But I still don't see where the FFL comes in. If a traveler has a permit in a state that we have 'reciprotcity' with (which, by current VI code is any that has a permit process) then traveling with gun in luggage is not a problem as his out of territory permit would make him 'legal' to posess here. No need for a FFL dealer.

 

The only ambiguity right now is reciprocity. the VI code clearly states that we recognize other state's permits. But how many cops know this? What it the 'reality'?

If you don't have a license here or elsewhere, and transport by plane, then as soon as you take possesion of your luggage, you are in possesion of an unlicensed firearm.

"The problem that was presented to us was the ambiguity in the vi code relating to unregistered weapons and unlicensed owners entering the territory.  The bill closes this loophole, so that any firearm or individual that is not registered in the vi has to go through an ffl.  Right now, registered owners in the states can bring firearms into the territory-as soon as they go through baggage claim they are in violation of the law-we are proposing this be changed in the current bill.  

We also added an amendment to clearly define reciprocity and which states are reciprocal to the VI and propose to take out the provision that the commissioner can arbitrarily make rules and regs-among other clarifying language.  We feel comfortable that these changes will provide greater consistency, especially when commissioners of police change.

We are open to further amendments to current statute-I already suggested/requested repealing all language and inserting similar language to that of the State of Vermont, but was vehemently denied.

Regards, 

[peter]

how about and ammendment that would change the length of the registration from 3 years to 7? or at least 5? remove alot of burden from the firearms bureau processing renewals.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Forecast Consulting, LLC"
Sent: Aug 12, 2010 1:40 PM
To: "stxgun...@googlegroups.com"
Subject: Re: Bill No. 28-0238

I do want to thank John Canagata, Otto Brown, and Mike Sheesley for their testimony.

Again, all amendments, suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks,

[Forecast Consulting, LLC]

Good idea

Jacob Spell

President

Forecast Consulting 

(340) 998-9415

[Forecast Consulting, LLC]

5 years is Florida right?

Jacob Spell

President

Forecast Consulting 

(340) 998-9415

On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:48 PM, peter <vigunf...@earthlink.net> wrote:

[Scott Whitcher]

The problem is that we have too many laws that aren't working. We can't even enforce the most necessary and basic laws, at least partly, because of the unlimited amount of laws the Senate keeps adding to the books, without ever considering repaeling any of the less useful laws. (All governing bodies seem to have this problem. They want to legislate things that can't be done by legislation.)
 
One good way to make things better for citizens, visitors, legislators and law enforcement would be to see what is working in the rest of the country. We seem to get all our inspiration from New York, California and Chicago. These places may be ahead of the nation in some respects, but they are way behind in others. They have far more "firearm related" problems; many due to their own laws not working...then we model our laws after them??
 
I would propose repaeling all of our firearm legislation and try modeling ours after other less populated areas, ones that aren't having huge problems. It just may be that they aren't having huge problems becasue the laws they do have work.

 

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Subject: Re: Bill No. 28-0238

From: jacob...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 13:38:27 -0400
To: stxgun...@googlegroups.com

[Scott Whitcher]

How about "reciprocity" for those states that don't require (or issue) a permit? Those states seem to have a lot less gun mischeif than the ones that require paperwork up the wazoo.
 

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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:46:17 -0400
From: vigunf...@earthlink.net
To: stxgun...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Bill No. 28-0238

[Forecast Consulting, LLC]

We are educating people on that, John made a very strong statement at the hearing regarding that subject and we are addressing that.

Jacob Spell

President

Forecast Consulting 

(340) 998-9415