Pragmatic Semiotic Information (Ψ)

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Jon Awbrey

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Aug 21, 2018, 3:40:21 PM8/21/18
to Ontolog Forum @ GG, SysSciWG, Structural Modeling
Cf: http://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2018/08/21/pragmatic-semiotic-information-%cf%88/

Ontologists, Systers, Modelers,

I remember it was back in '76 when I began to notice a subtle shift of
focus in the computer science journals I was reading, from discussing X
to discussing Information About X, or X → Info(X) as I came to notate it.
I suppose this small arc of revolution had been building for years but it
struck me as crossing a threshold to a more explicit, self-conscious stage
about that time.

And thereby hangs a number of tales ...

Jon

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Jon Awbrey

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Aug 22, 2018, 9:32:27 AM8/22/18
to syss...@googlegroups.com, Ken Lloyd, Ontolog Forum @ GG, Structural Modeling
Ken,

Thanks for the comment. It made me realize that the notation Info(X) is
probably not the best. It tends to mislead us into thinking we already
have X in hand, in other words, that we already have perfect information
about X and are merely abstracting Info(X) as some derivative of it.
But that is not the sort of situation we are concerned with here.

It might be better to say that Info is all the information we have at
a given moment of investigation and X abstracts the portion of Info
that has to do with X. That might lead us to notate it as X(Info).
This brings to mind the way we speak of observables in physics,
as operators on the total state or wave function or whatever.

If I had to concoct an informal linguistic example — which I'd do solely by way
of rough analogy to the formal mathematical situations we'd have much hope of
resolving in our lifetimes — I'd say the sorts of X we're facing here are what
used to be called “definite descriptions” like “Desdemona's infidelity” or
“Manafort's guilt on the 10 mistried counts”.

In those sorts of situations, discussed to death in years gone by,
what a modicum of pragmatic-semiotic insight adds to the mix is that
all descriptions are indefinite to some degree, all syntax is lax to
some extent.

There are, as usual, clear foresights of that insight in Peirce.
And that is what I'll be getting around to prescently.

Regards,

Jon

On 8/21/2018 6:10 PM, Ken Lloyd wrote:
> When speaking of most things, say x, we are indirectly referencing
> all the meta-levels of x - meta signifying beyond which can include
> higher levels of abstraction as well as lower levels of realizations.

Jon Awbrey

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Aug 24, 2018, 10:30:34 AM8/24/18
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Systems Science, Structural Modeling,

Here's my blog rehash of a couple earlier comments on the Ontolog list that
may help to explain my use of the term "pragmatic semiotic information".
I forgot that I hadn't shared those comments here, so sorry about that.

Inquiry Driven Systems • Comment 5
https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2018/08/19/inquiry-driven-systems-%e2%80%a2-comment-5/

Re: Ontolog Forum • Bruce Schuman
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/ontolog-forum/vo8CmL8jt30/2zAl5v_zDQAJ

I would call that the pragmatic-semiotic point of view
and not find anything shocking in it.

One can find earlier foreshadowings — Plato’s Cratylus and the Stoic lekton
are often mentioned in this connection — but the clearest precursor of the
pragmatic-semiotic perspective occurs in Aristotle’s recognition of the
triadic sign relation, most succinctly in his treatise On Interpretation.

Here’s the little essay Susan Awbrey and I wrote on that, tracing
the continuities of pragmatic semiotics from Aristotle up through
Peirce and Dewey and teasing out the intimate relationship between
the theory of signs and the theory of inquiry.

Interpretation as Action : The Risk of Inquiry
https://www.academia.edu/1266493/Interpretation_as_Action_The_Risk_of_Inquiry

Regards,

joseph simpson

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Aug 24, 2018, 7:58:19 PM8/24/18
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Jon:
Interesting section of your paper:

"We discuss the role of the interpreter in the activity of interpretation. 
Aristotle assumes that objects and impressions in the mind are constant across all interpreters. 
Confronting this assumption with the needs of hermeneutic and educational practice, we argue that a comparative 
and developmental understanding of interpreters is required. This in turn demands the more complete theory of 
signs envisioned by Peirce and Dewey, which continues to be developed in the semiotic and pragmatic traditions."
We are working on a paper that addresses different kinds of languages, each that have a 
different type of interpreter.  The augmented model-exchange isomorphism (AMEI) provides a
framework in which the semantics of a given natural language relationship may be evaluated and 
explored to identify a common isomorphic expression across all thee language types.

The ability to convert a informal language (natural language) into a formal language in an isomorphic
manner is very valuable for a number of reasons.

At this time we are addressing three natural language relationships that are at the heart of systems science and systems engineering.  These three natural language relationships are:
  1) Part-of  (Necessary to discuss a system with more than one part, part <=> whole)
  2) Precedes (Necessary to discuss a time based process, like creating a system)
  3) Influence (Necessary for the evaluation of system interaction.)

The plan is to have the paper up on Research Gate in a  few days and present the paper contents 
at the September 1st Structural Modeling Project video conference at 9 AM Pacific time.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe

Jon Awbrey

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Sep 2, 2018, 9:54:43 AM9/2/18
to Ontolog Forum @ GG, SysSciWG, Structural Modeling
I've been following the discussion on the SysSci list that asks
the question, “What Is Systems Science?”. I haven't found the
free time to join in yet but it is very interesting to me on
account of the fact my work on Inquiry Driven Systems for the
last 30 years or so can be seen to ask the converse question,
“How Is Science A (Cybernetic or Dynamic) System?”.

The idea that the sciences operate as (some order of) cybernetic systems
is of course nothing new but there is a lot of work to do detailing that
insight and especially building intelligent software systems that assist
scientific research by availing themselves of that task and user model.

Regards,

joseph simpson

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Sep 2, 2018, 10:12:25 AM9/2/18
to structura...@googlegroups.com, Ontolog Forum @ GG, Sys Sci
Jon:

Many interesting view points and aspects associated with the methods, goals and artifacts associated with science.

Our next focus is the refactoring and refinement of the existing structural modeling software.

Things are moving along slowly, but moving in the right direction.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe
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Joe Simpson

“Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. 

Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. 

All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.”

George Bernard Shaw

joseph simpson

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Sep 3, 2018, 6:05:49 PM9/3/18
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FYI ..
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: John F Sowa <so...@bestweb.net>
Date: Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Re: Pragmatic Semiotic Information (Ψ)
To: <ontolo...@googlegroups.com>


On 9/2/2018 9:54 AM, Jon Awbrey wrote:
> I've been following the discussion on the SysSci list that asks
> the question, “What Is Systems Science?”.

Systems science, like every other science, is applied semiotic.
The primary difference between the sciences is the subject matter
to which they are applied.

The reason for differences in terminology is historical and
egotistical.  The names that are given to things depend on changing
circumstances, historical accidents, popular fads, and egotistical
desires by people who want to claim that they made a novel discovery.

For example, where are the boundary lines between psychiatry,
psychology, behavioral science, cognitive science, social science,
sociology, educational psychology, and anthropology?

Answer:  It all depends on which textbook you use.

However, there is one basic distinction:  all sciences, whether
the scientists know it or not, are versions of applied mathematics.

Fundamental reason:  Pure mathematics does not depend on any empirical
observation.  Every other subject, including so-called common sense,
use math (formal or informal) to analyze some observable phenomena.

See the attached cspsci.gif.  Note that formal logic and formal
semiotic are two names for the same branch of pure mathematics.
The distinction is whether you call logic a subset of semiotic or
semiotic a subset of logic -- if undecided, flip a coin.

John

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cspsci.GIF

joseph simpson

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Sep 4, 2018, 8:07:59 AM9/4/18
to Aleksandar Malečić, Sys Sci, structura...@googlegroups.com, mjs...@gmail.com
Aleksandar:

You wrote:

"Aren't all sciences versions of applied Knowledge Representation Ontology also known as the Sowa Diamond? http://www.jfsowa.com/ontology/toplevel.html"

Great question.

Sowa wrote:

"However, there is one basic distinction:  all sciences, whether
the scientists know it or not, are versions of applied mathematics.

Fundamental reason:  Pure mathematics does not depend on any empirical
observation.  Every other subject, including so-called common sense,
use math (formal or informal) to analyze some observable phenomena."

It seems that there needs to be some empirical observation somewhere in the mix.

Take care and have fun,

Joe

On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 3:17 AM Aleksandar Malečić <ljma...@gmail.com> wrote:
Aren't all sciences versions of applied Knowledge Representation Ontology also known as the Sowa Diamond? http://www.jfsowa.com/ontology/toplevel.htm

Aleksandar

Jon Awbrey

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Sep 4, 2018, 10:20:20 AM9/4/18
to Ontolog Forum @ GG, SysSciWG, Structural Modeling
Ontologists, Systems Scientists, Structural Modelers,

What I find lacking in these ontological bat-capping games is the
dynamic, functional, transformational side of scientific inquiry,
the process that produces the product. If sciences are bodies
of organized knowledge, what is the physiology of those bodies?
That is the variety of systems theory I learned in my schools,
focusing on the states of systems and how they change over time.

When we apply that systems perspective to information systems,
knowledge systems, systems of belief, received opinion, whatever,
the state under investigation is a state of information, knowledge,
and so on, and the question becomes, “What influences and operations
actually do and optimally ought to update that state of info over time?”

For ease of reference, here is my blog rehash of my last post,
seeing as how the main point of it somehow got snipped out:

Pragmatic Semiotic Information • Discussion 2
https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2018/09/02/pragmatic-semiotic-information-%e2%80%a2-discussion-2/

Regards,

Jon
>>>> I've been following the discussion on the SysSci list that asks
>>>> the question, “What Is Systems Science?”.
>>>
>>> Systems science, like every other science, is applied semiotic.
>>> The primary difference between the sciences is the subject matter
>>> to which they are applied.
>>>
>>> The reason for differences in terminology is historical and
>>> egotistical. The names that are given to things depend on changing
>>> circumstances, historical accidents, popular fads, and egotistical
>>> desires by people who want to claim that they made a novel discovery.
>>>
>>> For example, where are the boundary lines between psychiatry,
>>> psychology, behavioral science, cognitive science, social science,
>>> sociology, educational psychology, and anthropology?
>>>
>>> Answer: It all depends on which textbook you use.
>>>
>>> However, there is one basic distinction: all sciences, whether
>>> the scientists know it or not, are versions of applied mathematics.
>>>
>>> Fundamental reason: Pure mathematics does not depend on any empirical
>>> observation. Every other subject, including so-called common sense,
>>> use math (formal or informal) to analyze some observable phenomena.
>>>
>>> See the attached cspsci.gif. Note that formal logic and formal
>>> semiotic are two names for the same branch of pure mathematics.
>>> The distinction is whether you call logic a subset of semiotic or
>>> semiotic a subset of logic -- if undecided, flip a coin.
>>>
>>> John
>>>

joseph simpson

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Sep 4, 2018, 11:10:55 PM9/4/18
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Jon:

Interesting point of view and approach.

Another interesting approach was taken by John Warfield.

John's approach explored the minimal, necessary context needed to support the activity of science.  The necessary contextual, environmental components are:
 1) Human beings (more than one)
 2) Language
 3) Reasoning through relationships
 4) Archival representation of artifacts.

These four components are given as the "Universal Priors to Science," in Chapter 2 of "A Science of Generic Design."

The ability of a given group of human beings to clearly communicate and reason has a significant impact on the development of any type of science.

It may be that expending effort on refining and developing these contextual components will have a great impact on the quality and quantity of science produced.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe






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Lenard Troncale

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Sep 5, 2018, 12:14:56 PM9/5/18
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Joe and Teams,

I think your summary of Warfield’s “minimal, necessary context for support of the activity of science” 4 components indicates why John and I had so many disagreements about systems science in our day. Please note that all 4 are on the human level ONLY. There is nothing there about experiments, applying the scientific method, hypotheses, past results, falsifiability, measuring & empirical approaches, or arranging nature to tell us how SHE works and not how WE HUMANS work. Missing these might explain the human role in trying to do science, but it does not explicate in any way the essentials of doing science IMHO. And so his tools might be great for helping humans begin to recognize how their human problems are really systems-level problems, but they do little to harvest and apply the “way nature has settled down to work” or its prescriptions to our newly developing human systems.

Len

joseph simpson

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Sep 5, 2018, 1:40:24 PM9/5/18
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Len:

Interesting point of view and observations.

It appears to me that the  "Universal Priors to Science," might be simply evaluated by asking some simple questions.

These  questions are:

   1 - Can science exist without human beings?  

   2 - Can science exist without language (both formal and informal)?

   3 - Can science exist without reasoning through relationships?

   4 - Can science exist without archival representation of artifacts?

If humans did not exist, who would do science?  What would it look like?

If language did not exist, how would humans (or any entity doing science) communicate the results of science ?

If reasoning through relationships did not exist, how would hypothesis testing be done? 

If archival representation of scientific artifacts did not exist, how would we know about the past results of science?

It appears to me that the name, "Universal Priors to Science," is well formed and correct in this case.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe

Lenard Troncale

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Sep 5, 2018, 1:56:49 PM9/5/18
to structura...@googlegroups.com
Joe,

I love this repartee and extended questions you pose. However, they do expose our different worldviews quite explicitly. I do not think at all that humans are the only sentient and conscious beings in the universe. Over my 40 years of teaching evolution, I consistently told my students that due to the universal architecture and behavior of the universe there were undoubtedly other planetary systems. And on some of those there would be intelligent life. That seemed a pure speculation during those decades.

But now we know that exoplanets exist and there are numerous examples. Who could have predicted that such evidence would emerge in my own lifetime? I mock exoplanet experts in their search for water (now seen on both the moon and Mars). Given a general systems viewpoint, water is not necessary for intelligent life at all. Something at drastically different temperatures and densities might have similar properties as water for analogues in silicon instead of carbon. All this just shows how terribly limited human thinking is. Completely limited to our ways and conditions. Now I do not want to get into the possibilities of alien life or not, or civilizations or not, or their nature or not, because such questions cannot be answered clearly yet. So why get into endless debates. I think the writing is on the wall though.

Notice how this changes your questions below. Yes to all. It might not be human science or human language and it might be better capacity for reasoning than we presently have, but science, or the mechanics of how nature’s systems work are enduring patterns that should exist and can be found whether we are the lone intelligent beings in the universe or just one of many.

Open your minds. Dogma and humanocentrism are the mind-killers. I am having fun.

Len

Jack Ring

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Sep 5, 2018, 4:45:34 PM9/5/18
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On Sep 5, 2018, at 09:14, Lenard Troncale <lrtro...@cpp.edu> wrote:

Joe and Teams,

I think your summary of Warfield’s “minimal, necessary context for support of the activity of science” 4 components indicates why John and I had so many disagreements about systems science in our day. Please note that all 4 are on the human level ONLY.

Obviously. What other animal, vegetable or mineral does science?

There is nothing there about experiments, applying the scientific method, hypotheses, past results, falsifiability, measuring & empirical approaches,

That’s why it is labeled “support the activity of science.”  Your list denotes some of the activity, but not all.

or arranging nature to tell us how SHE works and not how WE HUMANS work.

Who but humans arranges nature and the fictitious SHE? 

Perhaps the first step is to acknowledge "We see things not as they are but as we are.”
  1. 1961 copyright, Seduction of the Minotaur by Anaïs Nin, Quote Page 124, The Swallow Press, Chicago, Illinois. (Afterword added in 1969; sixth printing in 1972) (Verified on paper in sixth printing 1972) ↩
  2. 1961 copyright, Seduction of the Minotaur by Anaïs Nin, Quote Page 124, The Swallow Press, Chicago, Illinois. (Afterword added in 1969; sixth printing in 1972) (Verified on paper in sixth printing 1972) ↩
  3. 2005 January 9, Newsweek, How We See Sharon—and Israel by Marc Gellman (Newsweek Web Exclusive) (Online Newsweek archive at newsweek.com; accessed January 14, 2014) link ↩
  4. Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Berakoth, Folio 55b, Translated into English by Maurice Simon, Under the editorship of Rabbi Dr. Isidore Epstein. (Online at halakhah.com – accessed March 8, 2014) link ↩
  5. 1801, Sermons by the Reverend Sydney Smith (Late Fellow of New College, Oxford), Second Edition, Volume 1 of 2, On the Predisposing Causes to the Reception of Republican Opinions, Start Page 102, Quote Page 103 and 104, Printed for Longman & Rees by Mundell & Son, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩
  6. 1876, Nicolai’s Marriage: A Picture of Danish Family Life by Henrik Scharling, (Translated from Danish), Volume 2 of 2, Quote Page 211, Richard Bentley and Son, London. (Google Books Full View) link ↩
  7. 1890 March, The Popular Science Monthly, The Psychology of Prejudice by G. T. W. Patrick (Professor of Philosophy at the State University of Iowa), Start Page 633, Quote Page 634, D. Appleton and Company, New York. (Google Books Full View) link ↩
  8. 1890 June, Current Literature, Random Reading–Current Thought and Opinion, (Reprint of excerpt from “The Psychology of Prejudice” by G. T. W. Patrick in “The Popular Science Monthly” of March 1890), Start Page 439, Quote Page 440, The Current Literature Publishing Company, New York. (Google Books Full View) link ↩
  9. 1891, The Province of Expression: A Search for Principles Underlying Adequate Methods of Developing Dramatic and Oratoric Delivery by S. S. Curry (Samuel Silas Curry) (Dean, School of Expression: Instructor of Elocution, Harvard College), Quote Page 392, Published by School of Expression, Boston, Massachusetts. (Google Books Full View) link ↩
  10. 1914 June 8, Jersey Journal, Christian Endeavor Activities, Quote Page 8, Column 4, Jersey City, New Jersey. (GenealogyBank) ↩
  11. 1931, Out of Soundings by H. M. Tomlinson (Henry Major Tomlinson), The Gift, Start Page 148, Quote Page 149, Harper & Brothers, New York. (Verified on paper) ↩
  12. 1950 November 30, Trenton Evening Times, Quotable Quotes, Quote Page 16, Column 6, Trenton, New Jersey. (GenealogyBank) ↩
  13. 1970 January 17, Greensboro Record, A Happening: We Only See As We Are by Dr. Joseph Garrison, Quote Page A7, Column 2, Greensboro, North Carolina. (GenealogyBank) ↩
  14. 1991, Think and Grow Rich: A Black Choice by Dennis Kimbro and Napoleon Hill, Quote Page 245, Published by Fawcett Columbine, New York. (Verified with scans) ↩
  15. 2004, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People: Powerful Lessons in Personal Change by Stephen R. Covey, Quote Page 28, Free Press: A Division of Simon & Schuster, New York. (Google Books Preview) ↩
Missing these might explain the human role in trying to do science, but it does not explicate in any way the essentials of doing science IMHO.

Perhaps the first step: HUMILITY. See above.

And so his tools might be great for helping humans begin to recognize how their human problems are really systems-level problems, but they do little to harvest and apply the “way nature has settled down to work” or its prescriptions to our newly developing human systems.

Apparently you have not read the book or experienced the Interactive Management method of designing and conducting fallibility detection.

Relax. 

Jack

Jack Ring

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Sep 5, 2018, 4:56:21 PM9/5/18
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On Sep 5, 2018, at 10:56, Lenard Troncale <lrtro...@cpp.edu> wrote:

Joe,

I love this repartee and extended questions you pose. However, they do expose our different worldviews quite explicitly. I do not think at all that humans are the only sentient and conscious beings in the universe. Over my 40 years of teaching evolution, I consistently told my students that due to the universal architecture and behavior of the universe there were undoubtedly other planetary systems. And on some of those there would be intelligent life. That seemed a pure speculation during those decades.

Good conjecturing. Where’s the science?

But now we know that exoplanets exist and there are numerous examples. Who could have predicted that such evidence would emerge in my own lifetime?

Apparently not you.

I mock exoplanet experts in their search for water (now seen on both the moon and Mars). Given a general systems viewpoint, water is not necessary for intelligent life at all.
Ahhh, now ‘life’ is undefined.

Something at drastically different temperatures and densities might have similar properties as water for analogues in silicon instead of carbon. All this just shows how terribly limited human thinking is. Completely limited to our ways and conditions. Now I do not want to get into the possibilities of alien life or not, or civilizations or not, or their nature or not, because such questions cannot be answered clearly yet. So why get into endless debates. I think the writing is on the wall though.

Notice how this changes your questions below. Yes to all.
Where is your fallibility experiment design? Necessary ingredient of scientific method. 

It might not be human science or human language and it might be better capacity for reasoning than we presently have, but science, or the mechanics of how nature’s systems work are enduring patterns that should exist and can be found whether we are the lone intelligent beings in the universe or just one of many.

Open your minds. Dogma and humanocentrism are the mind-killers. I am having fun.
Have all the fun you want. Just be aware that you haven’t killed any minds over here.

Jon Awbrey

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Sep 8, 2018, 11:00:35 AM9/8/18
to Ontolog Forum @ GG, SysSciWG, Structural Modeling
Ontologists, Systems Scientists, Structural Modelers,

A question arising on another blog, perhaps incidentally, perhaps of the essence,
bought to mind recent discussions in these forums regarding the nature of systems,
variables, and the measurements that give systematic state variables their values.
My current focus being what it is, I couched my answer in pragmatic semiotic terms.



Measurement is an extension of perception.
Measurement gives us data about an object
system the way perception gives us percepts,
which we may consider just a species of data.

If we ask when we first became self-conscious about this
whole process of perception and measurement, I don't know,
but Aristotle broke ground in a very articulate way with his
treatise “On Interpretation”. Sense data are “impressions”
on the mind and they have their consensual, communicable
derivatives in spoken and written “signs”. This triple
interaction among objects, ideas, and signs is the
cornerstone of our contemporary theories of signs,
collectively known as “semiotics”.



Regards,

Jon Awbrey

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Sep 10, 2018, 10:54:11 AM9/10/18
to ontolo...@googlegroups.com, Azamat Abdoullaev, SysSciWG, Structural Modeling
Azamat, All,

Of course it's not that simple. I called it a cornerstone
not a whole building but it gives us a starting point and
a first approach to a pragmatic semiotic architecture
still being built as we speak.

There is more detail and a trace of semiotic's later development in this paper:

• Awbrey and Awbrey (1995), “Interpretation as Action : The Risk of Inquiry”
https://www.academia.edu/1266493/Interpretation_as_Action_The_Risk_of_Inquiry

We began by quoting the founding paragraph from Aristotle:

<QUOTE>

Words spoken are symbols or signs (symbola) of affections or impressions (pathemata) of
the soul (psyche); written words are the signs of words spoken. As writing, so also is
speech not the same for all races of men. But the mental affections themselves, of which
these words are primarily signs (semeia), are the same for the whole of mankind, as are also
the objects (pragmata) of which those affections are representations or likenesses, images,
copies (homoiomata). (Aristotle, De Interp. i. 16a4).

</QUOTE>

We used the following Figure to highlight the structure of the triadic
relation among objects (pragmata), affections or impressions (pathemata),
and symbols or signs (symbola, semeia) as given in Aristotle's account:

• Figure 1. The Sign Relation in Aristotle
https://inquiryintoinquiry.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/awbrey-awbrey-1995-figure-1.png

The triadic nexus marked “R” in the Figure is what graph theorists
would call a node or point of degree 3 and it provides a graphical
picture of a relational triple that can be taken in any convenient
order so long as we keep it constant throughout a given discussion.
For example, we could take Aristotle's object, sign or symbol, and
impression in the order (o, s, i), mostly just because I find that
convenient in later developments.

Diagrams of that sort, whether triangular or tri-radial in form, have long been
in common use for conveying the properties of triadic sign relations. But the
intervening years have taught me to my dismay that people tend to be led astray
by pictures like that, often getting stuck on square one, or rather triangle one.
That is, they get stuck on single triples of sign relations rather than grasping
them as they should, as prototypical examples of a whole class of ordered triples.

Regards,

Jon

On 9/10/2018 3:23 AM, Azamat Abdoullaev wrote:
> It is not so simple.
> There are generally two kinds of signs: conventional and natural.
> Mental ideas and images are also signs, natural signs, being themselves
> meanings and intentions, or "mental words".
> Natural signs are causally related.
> Natural signs are the source of meaning for conventional signs.
> Thus the mind is the medium through which words signify things.
>
> On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 4:55 AM Jon Awbrey <jaw...@att.net> wrote:
>
>> Ontologists,
>>
>> A question arising on another blog, perhaps incidentally, perhaps of the essence,
>> brought to mind recent discussions in these forums regarding the nature of systems,
>> variables, and the measurements that give systematic state variables their values.
>> My current focus being what it is, I couched my answer in pragmatic semiotic terms.
>>
>> ⁂
>>
>> Measurement is an extension of perception.
>> Measurement gives us data about an object
>> system the way perception gives us percepts,
>> which we may consider just a species of data.
>>
>> If we ask when we first became self-conscious about this
>> whole process of perception and measurement, I don't know,
>> but Aristotle broke ground in a very articulate way with his
>> treatise “On Interpretation”. Sense data are “impressions”
>> on the mind and they have their consensual, communicable
>> derivatives in spoken and written “signs”. This triple
>> interaction among objects, ideas, and signs is the
>> cornerstone of our contemporary theories of signs,
>> collectively known as “semiotics”.
>>
>> ⁂
>>
>> Regards,
>>
Awbrey & Awbrey 1995 -- Figure 1.png

joseph simpson

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Sep 11, 2018, 10:39:44 PM9/11/18
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Jon:

Interesting collection of concepts and insights.

It appears to me that it is very difficult to fully grasp the fundamental issues associated with pragmatic semiotic information when the natural language of the individual conducting the inquiry is the main object of study.

I find that the analysis of the languages supported by the "Talking Drums" of Africa help me understand the signaling process at a deeper level.

John Carrington produced some work in this area in the 1940's.
See:

A key feature of these "sign exchanges" or "communication events" is the use of redundant signs or "signal phrases" to eliminate the uncertainty associated with the information exchange.

The physical medium of communication (drum, impact vibration, air pressure) is different between human speech and drum speech.

Human speech has much greater pitch control and tonal variability than "drum speech."  The information loss associated with the restricted drum mechanics is compensated for by repeating many phrases that only make logical sense if they are interrupted in a specific manner.

For example, assume drum speech can not make a clear distinction between the words baby and tree.  

If the drummer wanted to communicate about a tree then there would be statements like, 'Go climb high in the XXX' or 'The fruit is on the XXX."

If the drummer wanted to communicate about a baby the there would be statements like, 'Feed the XXX' or 'The XXX is little and smart."

This type of redundant sign transmission may be used to achieve the semantic goals of the communication. 

However, the redundant sign transmission is just preparing the state of the interpreter.

There are interesting connections between Shannon's information theory and Carrington's analysis of the talking drums.

It would be interesting to map these different views of information exchange to the components of your Figure 1 - The Sign Relation in Aristotle.  Another task to add to the very long "to do" list.

Given the structure of your Theme One Program, you may have already given this type of approach some consideration.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe

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joseph simpson

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Sep 12, 2018, 10:47:09 AM9/12/18
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This section above:
"The information loss associated with the restricted drum mechanics is compensated for by repeating many phrases that only make logical sense if they are interrupted in a specific manner."

Should read:

"The information loss associated with the restricted drum mechanics is compensated for by repeating many phrases that only make logical sense if they are interpreted in a specific manner.

Jon Awbrey

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Sep 12, 2018, 3:10:37 PM9/12/18
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Joe, All,

The subject of natural languages and their relation to formal languages,
for example, logical calculi, logical graphs, and programming languages,
has come up periodically in our discussions and I've been struggling to
arrive at something both cogent and coherent to say about it. But what
the heck, here's a few thoughts off the cuff.

We naturally use our mother tongues as metalanguages to talk among ourselves
in fora like these, not only about well-formalized object languages but also
about the object domains that supply them with semantic substance, in a word,
“meaning”. Nothing about that makes “the natural language of the individual
conducting the inquiry ... the main object of study”. At least, that is not
how I'd personally understand the main task at hand.

I started using the run-on formula “pragmatic-semiotic point of view” during
a few exchanges with Bruce Schuman and John Sowa as a way of alluding to the
line of thinking about signs stretching from Aristotle to Peirce, Dewey, and
pragmatists of that stripe. Here's a link to my blog rehash of that episode:

• Inquiry Driven Systems • Comment 5
https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2018/08/19/inquiry-driven-systems-%e2%80%a2-comment-5/

Have to break here ... to be continued ...

Jon

joseph simpson

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Sep 12, 2018, 11:02:12 PM9/12/18
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Jon:

My phrase:

"pragmatic semiotic information when the natural language of the individual conducting the inquiry is the main object of study."

Is cryptic and may not convey my original meaning (semantics), but I think it is close.

The drum example is designed to highlight a small number of ideas and aspects of communication. Two of these aspects are:
1) Multiple language encoding processes combined with two or more communication channels.
2) One communication channel having a higher rate of uncertainty that the other communication channels.  How does the rate of sign (or symbol) uncertainty impact the form and semantics of a specific message.  With an uncertain channel, the message form can be changed to support the intended semantics.  

Next, I will outline another  example based on highway signs.

During a construction and repair event involving a draw bridge and a number of interconnecting surface roads, temporary road signs were placed along the roadway. The existing permanent signs were covered with black plastic to block out the sign messages.  This specific work area was congested and contained many permanent traffic signs among which the temporary traffic signs were dispersed. 

The combined collection of temporary and permanent signs created a situation where the existing "blanked out" permanent signs blocked some areas of the temporary signs.  When I was driving down the road a temporary sign displayed the following:
"Reduce speed to 'blocked out'  5."

So what is the new speed limit?  The speed limit can not be read from the sign.

However, the new speed limit can be estimated using the following contextual information:

Speed limits are given in steps of 5 miles an hour.

The current speed limit is 40 miles an hour.

Traffic ahead appears to b going over 20 miles and hour.

So, the new speed limit is either, 25 or 35 miles an hour.

The information from the road signs is combined with:

Known rules,
Current observations,
Analytical process,
to produce the highest valued estimate of the new speed limit.

So the new speed limit is either 25 or 35 miles an hour.

In this case, the interpreter selects the relevant decision elements from existing the existing knowledge base and contextual facts and makes a decision to reduce speed.  The only question is how much to reduce speed.

In this case symbols exist but the message is incomplete.

Information theory allows some insight in to the value of the message.

These ideas are not well formed yet, but I wanted to send out an initial message to capture these first ragged thoughts.

Jon Awbrey

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Sep 14, 2018, 4:48:25 PM9/14/18
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Joe, All,

JS: It appears to me that it is very difficult to fully grasp the
fundamental issues associated with pragmatic semiotic information
when the natural language of the individual conducting the inquiry
is the main object of study.

That one took me a double take, but if I understand the “when” clause
as a hypothetical condition, not the assertion of a fixed intention
then I'd naturally agree:

IF the natural language of the individual conducting the inquiry
is the main object of study
THEN it is very difficult to fully grasp the fundamental issues
associated with pragmatic semiotic information.

It is naturally worth the effort to reflect on the properties of our
embedding languages but we normally meet with limited, partial, and
well-circumscribed success on any given trial. That is why we study
formalized object languages as microcosms of the enveloping spheres.

So we'll continue on that understanding ...

Regards,

Jon

On 9/11/2018 10:39 PM, joseph simpson wrote:

joseph simpson

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Sep 14, 2018, 11:22:37 PM9/14/18
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Jon:

Great restatement and comments.

I have three general communication event types that I need to describe.

The Talking Drums communication event is Type One. (Preliminary description of this event is in progress.)

The Draw Bridge Sign event is Type Two. (First cut at describing this event is complete.)

The Native American Language event is Type Three. (This event is not described yet.)

Natural language derives meaning from contextual information.  The Talking Drums and Draw Bridge events are designed to help establish a rich event context that is needed to explore the impact of changing context information on event semantics.

Formal language derives meaning from two sets of rules: 1) Syntax rules detailing allowable symbols and 2) Semantic rules that detail the meaning of the symbols.

My goal is the establishment and refinement of three standard event communication types to serve as a rich contextual foundation that supports natural language to formal language analysis.  The event descriptions are simple stories that provide context.  

The ideas associated with the events and event descriptions are just forming now so, things may be in a dynamic state for a short while.

We will see if these ideas prove useful.

Jon Awbrey

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Sep 17, 2018, 3:54:11 PM9/17/18
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Joe, All,

The concept of a triadic sign relation, say L ⊆ O × S × I where O
is the object domain (think “universe of discourse”) and S and I
are domains of signs (think “channels” or “languages”) that we
are using to talk and think about O, is most often applied in
one of two ways.

1. S and I are really the same channel, language, medium, set of signs,
or state space of a system we are using to convey information about O.
In cases where S = I we are often concerned with transformations taking
place within a single set of signals and we may write I = S′ to signify
our focus on sign relational triples of the form (o, s, s′) where s′ is
a sign that follows s in a logical or temporal sequence, in short, where
s′ is the “next state” of s.

2. S and I are two different channels, languages, media, sets of signs,
or state spaces of systems being used to convey information about O.
In this case the issue is one of translation or “interoperability”.

So I think I'd start out viewing your “drum” example under the second case,
but when you really think about it you realize the first case is there, too.

Your “highway sign” example sounds like a traffic control version
of the issues they study in the subject of error correcting codes.

Regards,

Jon

joseph simpson

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Sep 17, 2018, 11:59:49 PM9/17/18
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Jon:

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I have had a few interruptions, in the last couple of days, and have not had time to provide the third case as a story or think about your response.

However, I think these context rich "stories" will help communicate the fundamental aspects of formal languages, natural languages and the communication process.

In any case, I hope to have a better response in a day or two.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe

joseph simpson

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Oct 1, 2018, 8:28:58 PM10/1/18
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All:

It has obviously been more than a couple of days and I still am engaged in a process that has expanded to requiring that we move out of our home for a couple of weeks.  Contractors need to address some damage to our home and this has been much more disruptive than I had  anticipated.  

Bottom line:  We will be in a disrupted state until late November.

My top priority is working the OSSMTools requirements development and conceptual code development.

See Github repo at:


I will return to the development of these three rich context examples when and as I get time.

However, it looks like it will be between a few weeks to a couple of months.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe


Lenard Troncale

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Oct 2, 2018, 12:25:00 AM10/2/18
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Joe,

Please accept the concern of all of us in your intrepid and hardworking group hoping that all will be well with you and your family. We hope that the damage you speak of was not part of the tremendous storms we in other places have heard on the news has befallen and challenged you on the east coast and the south. We in the Far West have had some challenges too. It seems that humanity is going to have to admit that the relative calm of climate that we have lived in to date may be changing.

Len


joseph simpson

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Oct 2, 2018, 12:54:29 AM10/2/18
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Thanks Len...

Mary and I are fine, just a little upset about the disruption.

The main issue is associated with good people, with good intentions.

Unfortunately these people are making decisions that they simply have little or no understanding of the total impact of their decisions.

We have a high-density vinyl roof that needs essentially no maintenance or cleaning.

A decision was made to "clean this roof" with power equipment.

The vibration from the power equipment caused wide spread interior damage to our home.

This is such an unusual type of damage that it took time to understand it's nature and extent.

We think we have the primary activities scoped, now we just need to get things fixed.

So, this is a simple case of the wrong maintenance methods being applied, at great cost and no benefit.

Just one of those things that happen when people make decisions without gathering all the facts.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe

Lenard Troncale

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Oct 2, 2018, 2:04:11 PM10/2/18
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Joe,

Sounded like system problem to me. Complex systems have so many non-linear connections our best intentions are often rewarded by unintended consequences. Sounds costly, but I am glad to hear that it was not a major storm or other catastrophe that might threaten families and lives. In 2003, one of our houses completely burnt to the ground. Still the financial cost of what you explain is significant and I am sorry to hear of your plight. My and I am sure many other best wishes coming your way ……….

Len

Jack Ring

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Oct 2, 2018, 2:12:05 PM10/2/18
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Joe, 
Best wishes.
The vibration means that your insulation must be verified.
Jack

Jon Awbrey

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Oct 3, 2018, 11:15:40 PM10/3/18
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Joe (and all),

I am sorry to hear of the difficulties on your home front.
I know we all wish you the quickest of returns to comfort.

I'll also be experiencing intermittent interruptions from
now until the moving vans come and probably a while after
but I'm hoping things will settle down by Thanksgiving.

For the moment I'll just post a few links to matters I've
been trying to get back to and hope to develop further as
time goes by.

The topic named in the subject line is the same thing I used to call
just Semiotic Information but I added the Pragmatic to emphasize the
continuity with Aristotle's pragmata and to point up the intentional
or object-directed dimension of semiotics. Various excursions along
those lines are linked on the following Survey page:

• Survey of “Semiotic Theory Of Information” (STOI)
https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2018/08/30/survey-of-semiotic-theory-of-information-%e2%80%a2-3/

Regards,

Jon

On 10/1/2018 8:28 PM, joseph simpson wrote:
> All:
>
> It has obviously been more than a couple of days and I still am engaged in
> a process that has expanded to requiring that we move out of our home for a
> couple of weeks. Contractors need to address some damage to our home and
> this has been much more disruptive than I had anticipated.
>
> Bottom line: We will be in a disrupted state until late November.
>
> My top priority is working the OSSMTools requirements development and
> conceptual code development.
>
> See Github repo at:
>
> https://github.com/jjs0sbw/OSSMTools
>
> I will return to the development of these three rich context examples when
> and as I get time.
>
> However, it looks like it will be between a few weeks to a couple of months.
>
> Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,
>
> Joe
>

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 21, 2018, 1:42:14 PM11/21/18
to Structural Modeling

Re: Pragmatic Semiotic Information • Discussion 10


Artem Kaznatcheev posted an interesting discussion on his blog under the title “Models as Maps and Maps as Interfaces” that I saw as fitting under this head.  A reader of Peirce may recognize critical insights of pragmatic thought cropping up toward the end of his analysis, prompting me to add the following comment:


Map and “mirror of nature” metaphors take us a good distance in understanding how creatures represent their worlds to themselves and others.  But from a pragmatic semiotic point of view we can see how these metaphors lock us into iconic forms of representation, overstretching dyadic relations, and thus falling short of the full power of triadic symbolic relations that support practical interaction with the world.


Regards,


Jon

On Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 3:40:21 PM UTC-4, Jon Awbrey wrote:
Cf: http://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2018/08/21/pragmatic-semiotic-information-%cf%88/

Ontologists, Systers, Modelers,

I remember it was back in '76 when I began to notice a subtle shift of
focus in the computer science journals I was reading, from discussing X
to discussing Information About X, or X → Info(X) as I came to notate it.
I suppose this small arc of revolution had been building for years but it
struck me as crossing a threshold to a more explicit, self-conscious stage
about that time.

And thereby hangs a number of tales ...

Jon

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 22, 2018, 10:54:49 AM11/22/18
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Everything was in confusion in the Oblonskys' house.

Also the Awbrey house ...

Too much going on at present to reply in detail. But here’s a link to one of my earliest attempts to find common ground between Peirce’s and Shannon’s theories of information. 

Semiotic Information
http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/index.php/Semiotic_Information

Regards,

Jon


On Nov 22, 2018, at 10:13 AM, <kall...@gmail.com> <kall...@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps a different approach that should be investigated is represented here:

http://rsfs.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/8/6/20180041.full

 

 

From: syss...@googlegroups.com <syss...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Jon Awbrey
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 11:35 AM
To: Sys Sci Discussion List <syss...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [SysSciWG] Re: Pragmatic Semiotic Information (Ψ)

 

Artem Kaznatcheev posted an interesting discussion on his blog under the title “Models as Maps and Maps as Interfaces” that I saw as fitting under this head  A reader of Peirce may recognize critical insights of pragmatic thought cropping up toward the end of his analysis, prompting me to add the following comment:

 

Map and “mirror of nature” metaphors take us a good distance in understanding how creatures represent their worlds to themselves and others.  But from a pragmatic semiotic point of view we can see how these metaphors lock us into iconic forms of representation, overstretching dyadic relations, and thus falling short of the full power of triadic symbolic relations that support practical interaction with the world.

 

Regards,

 

Jon

 

inquiry into inquiry: https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/
academia: https://independent.academia.edu/JonAwbrey
oeiswiki: https://www.oeis.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey
isw: http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/index.php/JLA
facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/JonnyCache

 

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joseph simpson

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Nov 22, 2018, 1:33:45 PM11/22/18
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Jon:

Interesting analysis and viewpoint.

An interesting question associated with this topic is:

"What happens when a sign (or message) does not reduce uncertainty?"

Uncertainty is not reduced when the message receiver (or sign interpreter) already has that information.

The same message (or sign) could provide information for one sign interpreter ( or message receiver) and provide no information to a different message receiver (or sign interpreter.)

We use the absence of information to reduce both computational complexity and cognitive complexity.

For example:

Using a binary matrix to assign connections between and among objects, empirical and/or logical information is needed to determine if a specific matrix cell should be occupied with a one (1) or a zero (0.)

Once an initial matrix configuration is developed, then the task is to determine the highest value matrix configuration.  If the matrix of interest has rows or columns that are either completely filled or completely empty, then these specific rows and columns may be removed from the matrix.  These rows and columns are removed from the configuration analysis because the final configuration for these rows and columns are already known.  No amount of computation or configuration analysis will add additional information.

After these no-information rows and columns are removed, the remaining matrix components may be analyzed to select the highest value configuration.  The no-information rows and columns may then be recombined with the  selected matrix configuration using a variety of recombination rules and approaches.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe
 








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--
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“Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. 

Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. 

All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.”

George Bernard Shaw

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 22, 2018, 7:36:26 PM11/22/18
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Joe, All —

If I recall correctly from a long ago coding theory course, in dealing with transmission through a noisy channel the simplest sort of error-reducing code amounts to simply repeating the bit or message again since the probability of getting the same error twice is lower.  Of course, more efficient error-reducing codes are possible but the principle of exploiting redundancy is the same. 

When you really think about it, the measures of uncertainty and information used in this application remain within the purely syntactic sphere and something more is required to address the object-referent dimension of pragmatic semiotics. 

More on that when I get more time …

Regards,

Jon

joseph simpson

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Nov 23, 2018, 1:04:53 AM11/23/18
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Jon:

It appears that I was not clear in my original post.

Two properties of information are being addressed.

The first property is the amount of information (number of transmitted messages or signs.)

The second property is the value of information (impact on the message receiver or sign interpreter.) 

If we consider discrete messages in a noiseless channel, then a quantitative measure of the amount of information in a message may be constructed.

However, the value of information in a discrete, noiseless message is dependent on the state and context of the message receiver. The value measure could be different for each message receiver.

Take care and have fun,

Joe

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 23, 2018, 8:24:25 AM11/23/18
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Joe, All —

Re: Pragmatic Semiotic Information

The thing that interested me about AK’s blog post was that practical reflection on map metaphors in his field led him to the threshold of fundamental insights about the role of signs in inquiry that we find in Peirce’s logic, pragmatism, semiotics. 

In my current understanding (and insufficiencies thereof) there are many open questions about Peirce’s approach to information and how it relates to Shannon’s.  When I get past my current preoccupations, closing on the sale of a house and all that fuss, I’ll be returning to my last breakpoint in that effort.  There are some hints of how far I got in the series of blog posts beginning here:

Information = Comprehension × Extension


Later,

Jon

joseph simpson

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Nov 23, 2018, 1:56:01 PM11/23/18
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Jon:

Thanks for the additional information.

Take care and have fun,

Joe

joseph simpson

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Nov 23, 2018, 2:18:39 PM11/23/18
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Jon:

This topic reminded me of a couple of pages in the Peirce's Logic Notebook.

Some interesting calculations and a reference to 'constant information.'

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe



M2JT0027.jpg
M2JT0028.jpg

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 25, 2018, 7:55:13 PM11/25/18
to Structural Modeling, Systems Science, Ontolog Forum
A comment I made in another discussion blending cybernetics and semiotics may help to clarify the overarching objective here  

I think the broader question here is the nature of scientific inquiry.  As I read them, classical cyberneticians appreciated the analogy between simple regulators adapting to their environments and the often halting but still advancing progress of scientific knowledge about the universe. Today a lot of that knowledge is stored in computational knowledge bases and the question is how best to apply our scientific methods to improve the objective grasp of these symbol systems.

Regards,

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 26, 2018, 9:36:19 AM11/26/18
to Structural Modeling, Systems Science, Ontolog Forum
Continuing ...

We have our object systems of interest and we have our software systems —
our brains, our computers, our various community and cultural resources —
that we use to study them. The pragmatic semiotic “laboratory frame”,
if you will, has three dimensions, the object system is called O, and
the “semiotic plane” takes up two dimensions, S for one space of signs
and I for another space of signs called interpretant signs, more often
just interpretants for short. The semiotic plane S × I serves to keep
track of the various interactions, translations, or transitions between
signs in the relevant sign process, or semiosis, of the moment. There
are many different kinds of sign process involved in scientific inquiry,
processes of analysis, argumentation, communication, data collection,
inferences of many types (abductive, deductive, inductive, analogical),
to mention just a few.

Battery running low ... more later ...

Jon

https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 27, 2018, 7:46:43 PM11/27/18
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Steve, All —

This is a question that arises in any field where we have to use language (codes, images, symbols) to analyze language in its most general sense and its relation to things outside language. How can we use our sign-using faculty to analyze itself without pulling the rug out from under ourselves and getting snared in a vicious loop? So the issue you raise is not peculiar to semiotics but arises in linguistics, logic, mathematics, programming, and similar pursuits.

As it happens, I’ve written at length about this bootstrapping or “meta” issue … I’ll go look some of my previous efforts up and see if I can make them clearer and less lengthy this time around.

Regards,

Jon

http://inquiryintoinquiry.com

> On Nov 27, 2018, at 11:35 AM, Steven Krane <sk5...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Jon. Are the “the set of things under discussion” also Signs; Always/Sometimes/Never ?
>
> It seems to me that in many discussions O is just more S, if you look carefully. It takes some work and careful dialog to get past that. Is that the object of Ontology? Sorry if these are dumb questions. I’m more curious than educated.
>
>
>
>> On Nov 26, 2018, at 7:12 PM, Jon Awbrey <jaw...@att.net> wrote:
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> The object domain O is the set of things under discussion at a given time, in other words, what is ordinarily called a universe of discourse. The elements of O, S, and I are distinguished by the roles they play in a given context, not necessarily by any distinctions of essence.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jon
>>
>> http://inquiryintoinquiry.com
>>
>>> On Nov 26, 2018, at 8:07 PM, Steven Krane <sk5...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Jon,
>>>
>>> What is the (sharp) distinction between O and S x I? Does O imply an objectively knowable universe, or is O a cognitive state.
>>>
>>> Steve
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Jon Awbrey

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Nov 28, 2018, 12:20:10 PM11/28/18
to Systems Science, Ontolog Forum, Structural Modeling
Steve, All —

In the experimental sciences, which are after all just more deliberate and
disciplined extensions of our everyday experience in the world, we interact
with some fraction of the world, assisted by apparatus and instruments that
extend our senses, and we record the data of observation and measurement in
the computational media that extend our memories of the phenomena the world
impresses on our minds. Toiling over that soil we cultivate narratives and
theories that guide us in future interactions with the world as we traverse
its many trials.

Observers focused on the intermediate grounds of that whole undertaking,
the mere archives of data records, or the literatures of narratives and
theories growing out of them, may be tempted to object, “We see nothing
but signs here! Where are the objects?” They may then raise the issue
“symbol grounding”, as if the action begins on a free-floating platform
of symbols and we have to find some sorts of hooks to anchor symbols in
the ground of objects below. But that is a false problem, arising from
an overly myopic or absent-minded point of view, forgetting how symbols
are always already born in the world of objects, objectives, and action.

Regards,

Jon

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 28, 2018, 9:04:12 PM11/28/18
to syss...@googlegroups.com, Structural Modeling, Ontolog Forum
Steve, All —

Too late for detailed reply, so just by way of quick clarification …

The process I described began and ended with pragmatic action in the world. The intermediate phases were “the mere archives of data records, or the literatures of narratives and theories growing out of them”, all of which take place on the plane of signs.

Regards,

Jon

http://inquiryintoinquiry.com

Jon Awbrey

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Nov 30, 2018, 4:24:38 PM11/30/18
to Ontolog Forum, Systems Science, Structural Modeling
Ferenc,

Thanks for the article and other links, very apropos.
I see that an English rendering of TRIZ might be TIPS,
also very apt.

One of the insights coming out of Peirce's work is the fact that negative operations
are more powerful than positive operations in the sense that negative operations can
generate all possible operations while positive operations by themselves do not suffice.
This is epitomized by his discovery of the amphecks as sole sufficient operators for
propositional logic.

Amphecks
http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/index.php/Ampheck
https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Ampheck

The propositional logic algorithm I wrote for my Theme One program
turns this principle to good effect in two ways:

1. The graph-theoretic syntax is based on a graph-theoretic operator,
interpreted as a type of controlled negation, that generalizes
Peirce's graph-theoretic operator for negation. See this page:

Minimal Negation Operator
http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/index.php/Minimal_negation_operator
https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Minimal_negation_operator

2. It turns out that recognizing contradictions quickly
makes for a high degree of efficiency in finding the
“models”, that is, the satisfying interpretations of
a propositional formula.

Relations of contradiction are also critical in statistical inference,
but I'll need to save that for another time.

I'll share a few thoughts about analogy next time.

Regards,

Jon

On 11/29/2018 11:53 AM, 'Ferenc Kovacs' via ontolog-forum wrote:

> You may find this source very useful and relevant
> https://triz-journal.com/contradiction-analogy-basis-inventive-thinking/
>
> Ferenc Kovacs

Jon Awbrey

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Jan 2, 2019, 4:00:32 PM1/2/19
to Ontolog Forum, SysSciWG, Structural Modeling
Cf: Pragmatic Semiotic Information • Discussion 12
https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2019/01/02/pragmatic-semiotic-information-%e2%80%a2-discussion-12/

Ontolog Forum, Systems Science, Structural Modeling —

Peter Smith, on his Logic Matters blog, queried readers about the type/token distinction
and its possible origins before Peirce. I shared a few thoughts and afterwards thought
they more or less belonged under the heading of pragmatic semiotics. So FWIW ...

It doesn't help with the question of semiogenesis, which is no doubt lost to
the mists of history, but Peirce being Peirce naturally discerned three shades
of signs in this respect: Tone, Token, Type. I collected a few excerpts here:

• Tone, Token, Type
http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/index.php/User:Jon_Awbrey/Tone,_Token,_Type

The distinction between Original and Copy figures frequently in Plato,
with echoes of still more ancient voices. Aristotle on Categories gives
an example where a word meaning both a live animal and its true-to-life
image must be shorn of ambiguity prior to appearing in a court of logic.
Aristotle on Interpretation distinguishes objects from their copies,
images, likenesses in the mind:

<QUOTE>

Words spoken are symbols or signs (symbola) of affections or
impressions (pathemata) of the soul (psyche); written words
are the signs of words spoken. As writing, so also is speech
not the same for all races of men. But the mental affections
themselves, of which these words are primarily signs (semeia),
are the same for the whole of mankind, as are also the objects
(pragmata) of which those affections are representations or
likenesses, images, copies (homoiomata). (De Interp. i. 16a4).

</QUOTE>

From a Peircean semiotic perspective we can distinguish an object domain
and a semiotic plane, so we can have three types of type/token relations:
(1) within the object domain, (2) between objects and signs, (3) within
the semiotic plane. We could subtilize further but this much is enough
for a start.

Type/token relations of type (1) are very common in mathematics and go back
to the origins of mathematical thought. These days computer science is rife
with them. I've seen a lot of confusion about this in Peircean circles as it's
not always grasped that type/token relations are not always all about signs.
It can help to speak of types versus instances or instantiations instead.

Aristotle covers type/token relations of types (2) and (3) in De Interp.,
the latter since he recognizes signs of signs in the clause, “written words
are the signs of words spoken”.

Regards,

Jon

Jon Awbrey

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Jan 10, 2019, 10:10:21 AM1/10/19
to Ontolog Forum @ GG, SysSciWG, Structural Modeling
Ontolog Forum, Systems Science, Structural Modeling —

After a year of all but all-consuming chaos on the re-homesteading front,
topped off by a bout of seasonal ills, it will take me a while to get my
trains of thought up to speed again — in the meantime, by way of getting
organized again, I put together a survey of previous blog and wiki posts
on the subject of Pragmatic Semiotic Information:

Survey of Pragmatic Semiotic Information • 4
https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2019/01/08/survey-of-pragmatic-semiotic-information-%e2%80%a2-4/

Regards & Happy 2019 —

joseph simpson

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Jan 11, 2019, 1:55:08 PM1/11/19
to structura...@googlegroups.com, Ontolog Forum @ GG, SysSciWG
Jon:

I look forward to your insights in this area.

Take care, be good to yourself and have fun,

Joe
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--
Joe Simpson

“Reasonable people adapt themselves to the world. 

Unreasonable people attempt to adapt the world to themselves. 

All progress, therefore, depends on unreasonable people.”

George Bernard Shaw
Git Hub link:
Research Gate link:

Jon Awbrey

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Jan 13, 2019, 10:24:16 AM1/13/19
to Structural Modeling, Ontolog Forum, SysSciWG
Re: Survey of Pragmatic Semiotic Information • 4
https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2019/01/08/survey-of-pragmatic-semiotic-information-%e2%80%a2-4/

Thanks, Joe, I've been looking at the record of past discussions and
thinking about what I'd like to accomplish this year. Just off hand,
I see a lot of discussion points I didn't get a chance to give their
due at the time and it looks like many of those are worth revisiting.
Some of the more troublesome points may seem tangential at first but
they have a tendency to recur if not dealt with, so it's critical to
address them as best one can.

More to the main arc of this thread, I need to keep developing the
implications of Peirce ideas about information, in particular, the
way information integrates the extensional and intensional aspects
of logic and thus helps to solve many old puzzles about the nature
of scientific inference and inquiry in general.

Onward!

Jon

Jon Awbrey

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Jan 14, 2019, 8:26:33 AM1/14/19