Fw: QOTW - Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol?

[Magreth Mkiwa]

let us share

On Saturday, 9 November 2013, 5:37, GotQuestions.org <nor...@gotquestions.org> wrote:

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Question: "What does the Bible say about drinking alcohol / wine? Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol / wine?" Answer: Scripture has much to say regarding the drinking of alcohol (Leviticus 10:9; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 29:6; Judges 13:4, 7, 14; Proverbs 20:1; 31:4; Isaiah 5:11, 22; 24:9; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12). However, Scripture does not necessarily forbid a Christian from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. In fact, some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…” What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol in excess to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31). Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated. In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12). Alcohol, consumed in small quantities, is neither harmful nor addictive. In fact, some doctors advocate drinking small amounts of red wine for its health benefits, especially for the heart. Consumption of small quantities of alcohol is a matter of Christian freedom. Drunkenness and addiction are sin. However, due to the biblical concerns regarding alcohol and its effects, due to the easy temptation to consume alcohol in excess, and due to the possibility of causing offense and/or stumbling of others, it is often best for a Christian to abstain from drinking alcohol. Recommended Resources: The Quest Study Bible and Logos Bible Software. What's new on GotQuestions.org? What does it mean to endure hardship (2 Timothy 4:5)? Who was Tertullian? What does it mean that the church has been grafted in Israel’s place? Is it wrong for a Christian to be an introvert? What are the keys of death (Revelation 1:18)? What is Dare to Share? What does the Bible say about playing the lottery? Why does God allow people to mock Him? Will the Holy Spirit be present during the tribulation? What does Messiah mean? Is the idea of chi compatible with the Christian faith? Why wasn't Aaron punished for making the golden calf? What does the Bible say about being an overcomer? GotQuestions.org seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing biblical answers to spiritually-related questions. To continue in this mission, we need your support! For more information, please visit our Support Page We apologize, but with over 216,000 QOTW subscribers, we simply cannot handle email replies to our QOTW. If you have a question about the QOTW, please submit it on our website. Thank you. GotQuestions.org Recommends: Got Books?       The GotQuestions.org Network:

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[Seleli Edwin]

Magret Mkiwa,

 

ha ha ha kumbe 'Kilaji' taking in an controllable manner/level, haina shida!

 

Yaani I CAN IMMAGINE THIS PIECE YENYE  FACT KABISAAA WALA HAMNA UBISHI LABDA TU MTU AKOMALIE MAMBO BILA GROUNDS  SOLID, Yet nikiichukua hii pisi ya material kwa fellow Wapendwa wa kule kwetu USHIROMBO, kule ambako Wokovu bado ni ulee wa '''first class/original''-eg hata Mdada kwenda saloon na kufanya mambo safi kwa kichwa yake apendeze  au Mkaka kupiga sop-sop  na scrub kisha kunyoa na magic ung'aaeee, una toka bonge la handsome, ni kama dhambi-dhambi ivi na kuelekea kuyapenda ya dunia, halafu niwafundishe/au tubadilishane mawazo tukiwa ktk youth gathering ya wa home kule acha Youths saved learned and exposed hawa wa Dar, niwe na mic yangu na lead motion ya kitu  wine haina shida, kwamba  laga drinking not a problem scripturally , I am telling you, sijapata kuona huo moto wake, kwanza mic inazimwa faster, kisha Pastor anaitwa toka home haraka sana na kuambiwa kua Muongoza mada analeta mambo ya wokovu wa Dar wenye michanganyo na anasema kupiga laga kimandiko, hakuna anayeweza thibitisha kua ni dhambi maana yako maandiko yanakubali na kuonyesha waliokunywa na yako yanakataza so which is which now na yote tisa, kumi nia ARUSI YA kana aliyotengezea Yesu  ni uwongo tu kusema akitengezea juice ya zabibu, basi, wakishanizimia mic, kinachofuta ni ku kutimuliwa nduki nje ya church, hawatajali huduma  zangu za nyuma kwa subject nyingine.

 

Nadhani kuna baadhi ya kweli/subjects za Neno, inabidi tufundishane/kujadiliana na kubadilishana mawazo  na maarifa kwa aina Fulani ya Wapendwa, si wote, itakua hapakaliki uko home church aiseee, well,  hata kwa baadhi ya churches/wapendwa wa mjini na jijini hapa hapa.

 

Edwin Seleli

 

 

Press on

--
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[John Rwezaura]

Hii mada ya kilevi/kileo si ya kudakia kiivyo! Nitawajia baadaye na mtazamo wa kimungu na siyo wa taifa la Israel, vatican, Germany, au wa kitanzania. Naamini tutaelewana wapendwa. Najua waafrika wengi wanaamini kwamba kila kilichosemwa na mtu mweupe ni sahihi! Kwa uhakika, sivyo. Kweli sahihi iko katika neno la Mungu, basi.

John

Sent from my iPad

[John Rwezaura]

Priests are not allowed to Drink Wine in All circumstances

Introduction

Are Christians priests? When do they work as priests? What is the Temple of God today? These questions steer the debate that disturbing scholars in our contemporary world, about wine or alcohol to be useful as refreshment to Christians. Is it sin or unethical for Christians to drink alcohol? Leviticus 10:8-11.

Then the LORD said to Aaron, "You and your descendants must never drink wine or any other alcoholic drink before going into the Tabernacle. If you do, you will die. This is a permanent law for you, and it must be observed from generation to generation. You must distinguish between what is sacred and what is common, between what is ceremonially unclean and what is clean. And you must teach the Israelites all the decrees that the LORD has given them through Moses." (NLT)

My argument tries to communicate the truth from this text and show the reason behind the command of God to the priests in the Old Testament, based on the wine prohibition which I believe was the cause of their mistake. The paper starts by looking at the position of the sons of Aaron and what makes them to be punished to death, as well as to the position of priesthood in the New Testament. The solution to these critical questions discussed tries to remove some confusion by drawing the insights, which can lighten the meaning of this text to the point of understanding the reason behind the sin of Nadab and Habihu, and the position of Christian believers today in terms of drinking wine and other alcoholic drinks.

Nadab and Habihu Were Priests

The commandment we read in Leviticus 10:8-11, speaks about the action of God against the sons of Noah who put unauthorized fire in their censers at the time of service in the Tent of Meeting, while people of Israel traveling in the desert from Egypt. Before the death of these two sons, the Bible says clear that they were priests under their fathers, who was appointed to be the High Priest, when Israelites were in the desert traveling to Canaan. It is spoken six times in Exodus “so they may serve me as priests” (Ex 28: 1, 4, 41; 29:1; 30:30; 40: 14-15). The Lord is the one who ordered Moses to anoint Aaron and his sons. “Have Aaron your brother brought to you from among the Israelites, along with his sons Nadab and Abihu, h  Eleazar and Ithamar, so they may serve me as priests” (Ex 28:1). The Bible sets clear that their priesthood is theirs by a lasting ordinance or will continue for all generation to come (Ex 29:9 and 40:15).

The text begins with the Lord’s commandment to those who minister in His house to avoid wine or other alcoholic drinks before entering in the service. This text is precede by the punishment of the Lord to the sons of Aaron in their first mistake. In the passage we see the phrase “unauthorized fire” mentioned after their death. At that moment, the Lord gives the commandment to all priests that they should avoid wine or other alcoholic drinks.

Drinking Wine Possibly Is the Sin of Nadab and Habihu

The death of Nadab and Habihu is caused by the mistake done by these two sons. The writer stresses on the unauthorized fire in their incense before the Lord. The question is, why they put unauthorized fire while they new what kind of fire needed in the certain action? Why all of them did not distinguish between authorized and unauthorized fire? These questions are so important and can lead us to discover that both were confused or were in a state that they cannot distinguish between the sacred things and what is common.

Another point that can help us to agree that the causal of their mistake was wine and led them into confusion, in which they used unauthorized fire, is the Word of the Lord to Moses. Short moment after the death of Nadab and Habihu, the Lord gives instruction to Moses pointing the position of priesthood that they should not drink wine and any alcoholic before going in the Tabernacle. Most of scholars agree that every law was given to deal with the specific problem. This command of the Lord was given immediate after the death of these sons. It is clear that there is no connection between this command and other event rather than the mistake done by Nadab and Habihu.

The command prohibiting the priests from drinking "wine or other alcoholic drink" (10:9) may advocate that drunkenness was a possible reason in their sin. The actionopposite to the will of God and the instant decision that God makes, was a vivid example of what it destined of a person to be "cut off from his people." 22 times in the large text from Exodus 12:15 through Numbers 19:20, the Lord speaks different reasons in which a person can be cut off from his people. God does not mention anywhere that unauthorized fire could lead a person to death. The event of unauthorized fire is found only in passage that we discuss, followed by the judgment of Nadab and Habihu. This facilitates the commandment of the Lord to the restriction of drinking wine or ather alcoholic drinks before entering in the tabernacle. As it is summarized by Moses in this moral story as summarized by Moses is that those who have the privilege of being nearest to God’s service must bear extraordinary responsibility to demonstrate His holiness and glory.

We can sight this truth from other scriptures which support the argument to show the outcome of drinking wine and fermented drinks. “Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise” (Prov 20:1). "… not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer, lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights, (Pr 31:4-7). This reveals what the science discovered when a person takes alcoholic into his/her brain. Alcohol goes directly and affects the brain by creating an unnatural intellectual brilliance. The research made by National Safety Council and California Department of Alcohol and Drug Programs gavethe result of 10 percent in the body becomes clumsiness, uncoordinated behavior, impairment of mental abilities, judgment and memory, while 40 percent of brain of drinker is usually unconscious. a

The tension comes from punishment of God that led to death of Nadab and Habihu was followed by the command to prohibit priest from drinking wine or alcoholic drinks.The act of the Lord was to deal with the current problem so that it cannot be repeated again. I am convinced to believe that, God was dealing with the cause of problem as has been doing to other commandments. This brings the possibility of drinking wine to be the cause, in which these sons of Aaron failed to distinguish unauthorized fire from authorized one, and take into consideration to what The Lord had said. The prohibition against wine or other alcoholic drink was possibly intended to set their minds clear to fulfill their priestly responsibility of distinctive ability between the holy and the profane, between the unclean and the clean, and able to teach the Israelites the rules of God which brought to them through Moses as well as to make decisions about complicated cases.

The restriction was limited to priesthood position

This text we are discussing, show that the Lord’s command is limited to Aaron and his sons to their position of priesthood. The point to consider is that, they are not allowed to drink wine or alcoholic before going in the Tent of Meeting and this is connected to the lasting ordinance of priesthood. The history of Israel shows the development of the place of worship. In the desert, the place was in the Tent of Meeting, when they settled in Canaan, the Tabernacle continued until the time of Solomon the King, who by the order of God, he built the Temple. From that time, the Temple was used almost all of the Old Testament and was destroyed in 70ADE. Priests were at work under God’s order that they should not drink wine or any alcoholic drink before entering in the Temple. The destruction of the Temple gives new insights in which we should ask ourselves, is there another temple for worshiping God? What is the temple? Is there High Priest and priests to fulfill the task of worship before God? Who are they?

In answering these questions, the principles should be used in which God’s order is to be observed. The tension of God is illustrated in the text we discus, because the work before God needs clear conscience as He says, “You must distinguish between what is sacred and what is common, between what is ceremonially unclean and what is clean. And you must teach the Israelites all the decrees that the LORD has given them through Moses(v. 10-11). "In order to apply this order to our time, understanding the principles is very important. The principle in this text is clear; “priests should not drink wine or alcohol before entering in the Tabernacle” If we still having Priests and the Temple today, the principle in which God restricts the wine, is compulsory.

All Believers Are Priest, kings, and Temple of Holy Spirit

All believers are categorized in two aspects, priests and temple of God. This is the work of Jesus Christ to those who believe in him. We read this in the book of Revelation 1:6 “…and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father…” As kings, the Bible says in Proverbs 31:4-5 “It is not for kings, O Lemuel not for kings to drink wine, not for rulers to crave beer, lest they drink and forget what the law decrees, and deprive all the oppressed of their rights. As Priests the Bible says, "You and your descendants must never drink wine or any other alcoholic drink before going into the Tabernacle. If you do, you will die. This is a permanent law for you, and it must be observed from generation to generation” (Lev. 10:9; 1Pe 2:5, 9). Believers are also called the Temple of the Holy Spirit. “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own (1Cor 6:19). What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God.”

The big question rises; in which time and where believers should worship God? We can draw the answer of this question from the statement of Jesus in John 4:21-24. “…a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God isSpirit and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

The Priesthood of Believers is Perpetual

The priesthood in our time is in daily service. As long as we are in Christ, the work of offering sacrifices has no specific time but is done twenty four hours. The answer of Jesus to the Samaritan woman sets clear that the place of worship changed from specific place into the hearts of believers. Another point is that the time of worship as changed to perpetual, which means all the time, believers are supposed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. In this account, there is no time where we can have an ample time to refresh ourselves with wine or other alcoholic drinks. As Priests of the New Testament we are advised to get our refreshment in the Holy Spirit. Here in Africa we have no problem of drinking wine. All born again Christians believe in not taking alcoholic as refreshment. The text of Paul in Ephesus 5:18 as it is supported by the text in Leviticus we discuss, Paul says, “Do not get drunk (be under the influence of) on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.”

The text we discuss matters to African perspective. Here in Africa, we do not take the order of the Lord to priests in a literary and apply it, but we dig in the context of how the action was taken, what was the problem, what forced the Lord to formulate the law, and why for this time. By separating the sin of Nadab and Habihu from the command of the Lord against wine and alcoholic drinks to the priests, we totally loose other supporting scripture in which God’s intent brings the commandment that priests should avoid alcoholic drinks.

Basically, African culture gets support from this text. From the beginning in African history, those who are in the position of leadership in the community, and those who were in the position of serving ancestors, were not allowed to drink wine. It wasshameful to be found in the place where the wine and alcoholic drinks found. This was one of the principles that can remove somebody from his/her position of leadership. Of cause, here in Africa drinking wine is not only an ethical, but is among the big sins as adulteryand fornication. When we read and preach from Leviticus 10:8-11, we get support from people’s hearts, because it is their nature to those chosen people that they should not refresh themselves in wind and other alcoholic drinks.

Conclusion

As we have seen in my argument, God through Jesus Christ has positioned all believers in a special rank. They are in the Kingdom of God, they are priests, they are God’s Temple, and they offer daily spiritual sacrifice. Furthermore, believers should worship God in the spirit and truth. Romans 12:1 offer a clear conclusion that to “…offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is his good, pleasing and perfect will.” These qualities offer the clear understanding in which my argument lays. First, we are priests and our offering work is a daily task. Second, we are the Temple of Holy Spirit. The critical question will stand still: Those who support wine as refreshment to Believers in Christ, in which angle they draw conclusion that drinking alcoholic is not sin or unethical, especially when it used as refreshment? 

Sent from my iPad

On 15 Nov 2013, at 17:22, Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Seleli Edwin]

John R

 

I would like to call you to do some  CAREFULL digging  on this matter and if it benefits here anyway, drop your feed back. We don't support  wine, however, we cannot force our own interpretations on the scriptures unless are correct.I don't wanna go into the details but mara nyingi ktk Bible kwa hii issue utakutana na upande moja, maandiko yanayokataza, kulewa and  kunywa na mengine yanaonyesha baadhi waliyotumia na wengine wakiruhusiwa  kupewa kwa sababu fulanieg maskini.

 

 

Na the most challenging one in Arusi ya Kana...niku hamasishe tafuta neno la asili ya kile kilichotegenezwa pale, ni kama inakataa kuingia ktk akili but ni kweli tu anyway.

 

Mimi nadhani, kukataza kabisa hata kugusa chupa achilia mbali kunywa, ILIPIGWA MARUFUKU KWA NGUVU NYINGI KWA HEKIMA TU YA KIMAONGOZI kama vile Paul alipokua anaweka utaratibu wa mambo kadhaa ktk Kanisa/Watoto aliowazaa kwa nia nzuri tu na tena kwa faida yao wenyewe, ili kuwasaidia Wapendwa wasije kupitiliza, lakini kusema with finality kua imekatazwa kabisa au imeruhusiwa kabisa, THERE IS ALWAYS A SERIOUS CHALLENGE KUYA..harmonise maandiko yanayongelea kitu kimoja kwa side zote hasi na chanya

 

Press on

[Patrick Kamera]

That's a well balanced approach Edwin,

Here is how I see things:

Right from the onset let me just say this, it is important that we do not mix Covenants. Today we are under the New Covenant which is based on better promises than the Old one. (Hebrews 8:6)

Before the Old Covenant was given there was no law prohibiting drinking alcohol, that is why Noah got drunk but wasn't held accountable by God for his drunkenness and when he cursed his son, the curse was effective. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord!  It is also the case with Lot who got drunk and slept with his daughters, again he wasn't punished for his sin of drunkenness. The Holy Spirit through the apostle Peter refers to him as "righteous Lot" in 2 Peter 2:7 

Under the Old Covenant Law, the Priests and Levites who ministered before the Lord were not allowed to drink wine or any kind of alcohol (Leviticus 10:9). Nazarites, those with vows were not to drink wine or any strong drink as well.(Numbers 6:4)

There are many admonitions in Scripture against indulging in alcohol and the negative consequences that are attached to such indulgences. 

In the New Covenant, we have a different High Priest, not from Levi, not of the Aaronic stock but our High Priest is from the tribe of Judah, He is not of the Aaronic Order but of the Order of Melchizedek, who remains a Priest unto God Most High forever. Now just as the writer to the Hebrews so eloquently put it, a change in the Priesthood necessitates a change of the Law. (Hebrews 7:12) 

Now that's where the Laws of Christ which are wrapped up in this New Commandment He left us "love one another as I have loved you" - John 13:34. In this New Covenant we have the Holy Spirit inside each one of us and He leads us and guides us and as we follow His leading, our lives will be marked by genuine Fruit of the Spirit. That beloved, is how we are to live. We have a relationship with God, we hear His voice and we live by it, unless we really get this, we will resort to looking for laws and rules and regulations which appear noble and just on the surface but they ultimately rob saints of their privilege of enjoying the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. What did Paul say?

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. - Colossians 2:20-23 NKJV 

You will not find an instance of alcohol drinking being forbidden by Jesus ( His very first miracle was turning water into wine, not grape juice but real wine (Greek. οἶνον oinon). And there is Scriptural evidence of Jesus, and by extension, His disciples, drinking wine. Matthew 11:19 comes to mind - When they compared Him to John the Baptist who didn't drink wine (being a Levite from a priestly family and the last of the Old Covenant prophets), they called Jesus a glutton and a drunkard. 

You will not find any of the early apostles forbidding people from drinking alcohol but always forbidding them from getting drunk. Eph 5:18 does not say "do not drink wine" but rather "do not be drunk with wine". Paul even advises Timothy to "drink a little wine" for his stomach and frequent ailments - 1 Tim 5:23 If drinking wine was a sin, why would the apostle Paul advise Timothy to go and sin? Better yet why didn't he just lay hands on him or pray for him so that he gets healed and not have to drink wine and commit sin? See the problem of insisting that drinking alcohol is sin? When instructing Titus concerning women, the apostle says: 

3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— Titus 2:3 NKJV (emphasis added) Notice he didn't say they shouldn't drink, his emphasis was on the amount as the word "much" there signifies.

When rebuking the Corinthian church about the irreverent way they partook of the Lord's Table, the apostle Paul doesn't tell them not to drink wine, in fact he says "some of you are hungry, while others are already drunk". The problem there was not the wine but selfishness which led to divisions in that church. (1 Cor 11:17-34)

Let me wrap up by saying that, in all things we are to walk in love, wisdom and self control. To the believer in the New Covenant all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial, all things are permissible but we should not be brought under the power of anything, alcohol included. Again, Paul the apostle put it this way: 

23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify. 24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well-being. - 1 Cor 10:23-24 NKJV 

12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. - 1 Cor 6:12 NKJV

Cultivating a relationship with the Holy Spirit of God who is in you, will not only save you a lot of unnecessary heart-aches and negative consequences in this life, but will also establish your heart in peace and confidence before God. You will not be constantly asking "is this sin?", "is that sin?", you will know exactly what you are to do in whatever situation you find yourself in. The Spirit will guide you from within, He might even tell you to stop doing certain things because He knows it is for your own good, He might not tell others to stop doing the same thing though...Example: I have a friend who was specifically led by the Spirit to quit soccer and he was a very good player, now for that brother to start preaching "soccer is sin" that wouldn't be right, though to him it is. See my point....

That's the beauty of the New Covenant, we live from the inside out not from the outside in, as they did in the Old Covenant.  

Let me end my "mkeka" here 

Blessings beloved, 

Tuendelee kujifunza....

Patrick

[John Rwezaura]

Patrick my brother, watch out what say! What kind of theology and theory you have learned?

Many people do mistake by separating the old and new testaments. Others mix both out of understanding. All these bring negative understanding of the real meaning of the word of God.

My point is this if you want to act on anything in New, you must understand very well from the Old. Do you remember when Jesus was asked the question about marriage, what was the answer? Obviously, he recalled from the Old, that from the beginning God created man and woman!

In the same manner, God prohibits alcohol to his servant. The matter is this, are you his servant? If the answer is yes, then you are not allowed to take alcoholic for pleasure out of being medicine to your illness.  

Upo hapo baba?

Sent from my iPad

John.

[Seleli Edwin]

Patrick Kamera,

 

Perfect! you said it all, that is why I remotely tipped John R-I wished would have got it- that I don't want to go into details but there is MAJOR CHALLENGE to reconcile the matter and come up with a general rule if we are to speak the truth of the Scriptures and not our own formula  and churchish customery manner of handling and over seeing things/members conducts.

 

I should take that this matter is simply understood unless we want to fellowship more with here and there talks, that is sweet, its is encouraged and welcomed

 

Press on,

 

Edwin Seleli

On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com> wrote:

[cmushi.carol]

Nimepata mwanga na hili fundisho. Ingawa mie sio munywa pombe, ila najua Roho wa Mungu alie ndani yetu husema nasi na utamuona alieokoka kwa kawaida hajisiki hata kuigusa. Wengi sana huwa hawanywi ingawa ktk kikundi hicho hicho wanichukulia kama Desturi kuwa walokole haturuhusiwe kunywa pombe.

 

Wengine wakienda kushuhudia na wakakutana na watu wanywa pombe lafu wakaokoka wanamwambia mtu huyo, "umeshaokoka na unatakiwa kuacha pombe na pia usivute sigara" sawa, lakini sio lazima umtaarifu maana Roho wa Mungu ambae tiari amekaa ndani yake nikumpa cheo yeye sasa ni mwana wa Mungu atamshuhudia taratibu halafu atakausha ile kiu yake bila hata ya wewe kumshututisha.

 

Nimeshukuru Kweli kwa wandugu kuchangia hapa.

Kama nimekosea hebu sahihisha tafadhali ili tujifunze tuu.

 

Barikiwa

-Caroline (CM)

 

From my Android phone on T-Mobile. The first nationwide 4G network.



------ Original Message ------

From : Seleli Edwin
To : strictl...@googlegroups.com;
Sent : 11/19/2013 2:00 PM
Subject : Re: QOTW - Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol?
 

 

[Linus Masumbuko]

Dear All,
The discussion on alcohol consumption should be looked in the light of scriptures as illustrated very well by

John Rwezaura "On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:41 PM, John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Priests are not allowed to Drink Wine in All circumstances"

Spiritual issues are understood through the Spirit of God and through His Word. John has summed it all, unless one is looking for an excuse to take alcohol. Be blessed.

Linus

--

[Patrick Kamera]

Amen Edwin and Caroline,

Well said, nakubailiana na maoni yenu 100%. You see as sister Caroline has pointed out, we cannot reduce wokovu to a set of do's and don'ts, "acha pombe", "acha sigara", "acha hiki", "acha kile". The reality is kama mtu ameokoka kweli atakuwa na hamu ya kujifunza Neno la Mungu na Roho wa Mungu ndani yake atamwongoza katika njia za haki kwa ajili ya Jina lake na kumtia katika kweli yote, hatua kwa hatua, atamwambia nini cha kuacha na nini cha kufanya. It is now a relationship based on Jesus' love for us and we reciprocate that love back to Him by being obedient to Him, we no longer live by a set of laws, rules and regulations, we are sons (gender neutral) not slaves.

Tuendelee kujifunza,

Blessings 

Patrick

2013/11/19 cmushi.carol <cmushi...@gmail.com>

--

[Patrick Kamera]

Brother John et al., 

Let us put aside our traditions, as good and as pious as they seem to be. Let us look at the Scriptures correctly. For starters, the Old Covenant was exclusively for the Jews to keep, no gentile was included in it, so before we gentiles jump onto the Old Covenant and try to keep its commands we should remember this truth: 

34 These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai. - Leviticus 27:34 KJ21 

With the inauguration of the New Covenant, the Old one has become obsolete according to Hebrews 8:13 

The New Covenant, ratified by the incorruptible blood of the Son of God, is for both Jew and Gentile. When we believe in Jesus and confess Him as our Lord and Savior, we are Born Again into the family of God and He now relates to us according to this New Covenant. In this New Covenant Christ is our High Priest in the Order of Melchizedek not in the Levitical Aaronic Order, and we are Priests and Kings unto God, something that wasn't possible in the Old Covenant. A Priest could never be both Priest and King and a King could never be both King and Priest. Why do I keep bringing this point up? Simply to show that there has been a change in the Priesthood and that necessitates a change in the Law (including the law against drinking alcohol)  

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. - Hebrews 7:12 NIV

So, whichever way we look at it, the New Covenant is based on better promises. 

 

Now we all agree that Jesus who is much more than a servant of God, made and drank wine, there is no way around this fact unless we remove parts of the Gospels which clearly document this. Question, why did Jesus make and even drink wine? Didn't He know it was sin to do so? If we agree that Jesus did no sin as the Scriptures clearly attest, then we will have to conclude that when He made wine and even drank wine He wasn't committing any sin. Brother John, you see what I'm getting at?

 

Again, Paul and Timothy were both servants of God, but Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for his frequent illnesses and it's the very same Paul who wrote a third of the Books in our New Testament. Paul warned against being drunk not drinking, huge difference.   

If we are to maintain that drinking alcohol is sin, then we will have to find a way to excuse  the actions  and words of Jesus and Paul without lifting Moses above Christ, and that my friends is impossible to do if one is truly a disciple of Christ.  

Tuendelee kujifunza,

Blessings, 

Patrick

2013/11/20 Patrick Kamera <pka...@gmail.com>

[Seleli Edwin]

Patrick K,

 

Perfect and well done job! those are the details brothers and all SG  interested with gathering God's word knowledge by following up onto the challenging issues of the Bible and our faith, would want to read with very wide open mind and eyes.  We can go on digging-Studying( not just reading) the scriptures to bring the truth/fact onto the surface more and more.

 

This is well said Patrick..'''If we are to maintain that drinking alcohol is sin, then we will have to find a way to excuse  the actions  and words of Jesus and Paul without lifting Moses above Christ, and that my friends is impossible to do if one is truly a disciple of Christ'''

 

Well,  Dr. Masumbuko and John R, will be waiting your teachings on this matter in general and my questions I plated about John.2: 1-11-the Wedding at Cana of Galilee.

 

If silence from your end, persists  then I will suggest a huge, true  and sweet conclusion for your comments again.

 

Edwin Seleli

[John Rwezaura]

Mr. Patrick be carefully on generalizing issues. It is true that Jesus is the messenger of New Covenant, but remember that Jesus was not intended to formulate Christian religion, but to make all people to become children of God. Do yo mean that because of the New Testament, let us drink and eat? Or the miracle in Galilee and the order of Paul to Timothy can guarantee believers to take alcoholic drink as their pleasure? I know these question may be tough for you because of your generalizing issues.

The Bible is built in logical manner not on the ideas of people as they think. God is One and his covenant is one in terms meaning. What makes difference between the Old and the New, is only the way of approaching God. But when it comes at the issue of the relationship between God and His people, the order is one. From that point, alcoholic matters and in relational to God, that through Christ, we are all made Priests with him. There are two points to consider here;

1. Do you believe that believers are priests today?

2. Do you know that we now offer sacrifice in daily basis?

It is true that priests were prohibited to drink wine before going into Tabernacle. To poor people in thinking, may think that the order is for only those who preach or it was concerned in the certain period of time. But the order is at the time of offering, and permanent law to all priests.

Back to the statement of God in Leviticus 10:8-11.Then the LORD said to Aaron, "You and your descendants must never drink wine or any other alcoholic drink before going into the Tabernacle. If you do, you will die. This is a permanent law for you, and it must be observed from generation to generation. You must distinguish between what is sacred and what is common, between what is ceremonially unclean and what is clean. And you must teach the Israelites all the decrees that the LORD has given them through Moses." (NLT).

The Verse bellow shows that today all believers are priests. Second, we are here on earth to offer daily sacrifice to God. This means we have no time for refreshing our minds from alcoholic drinks, but we must be holy as God. 

1 Peter 2:5 KJV [5] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:5 AMP

[5] Come and, like living stones, be yourselves built into a spiritual house, for a holy (dedicated, consecrated) priesthood, to offer up those spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ.

All in all, Priests today are not allowed to Drink Wine in All circumstances.

Patrick, are you among priests of the New Covenant? Take no alcoholic drinks as your refreshment, please. Otherwise, you are behaving against your High Priest, JESUS CHRIST.

Your Friend,

JOHN

Sent from my iPad.

[John Rwezaura]

Edwin Seleli, 

We have clear understanding on Jesus' miracle and the order of Paul to Timothy concerning little wine for his stomach illness. Please let us first dig deeply at this start, because there are some issues to be addressed before jumping on the minor issues, then if necessary we will come back to clarify of these two issues of Cana, Galilee and Timothy as well. OKAY?

Thanks,
JOHN
Sent from my iPad

[Alphonse Ziragora]

Kunywa pompe siyo ndambi,lakini ulevi ni dhambi kabisa. Wakristo wengi wanaacha kunywa pombe ili isiwaingize dhambini.   Pamoja na ile RM hashirikiane na wanaokunywa pombe. Hivi ukitaka upako usikunywe pombe.   Tena kuchapa injili ukianzia kukataza pombe, ni kupungukiwa sana. Lengo la injili ni kuamini kam Yesu ni mwana wa Mungu....   Inapofika jambo la pombe hii inalenga kukua kiroho.    Alphonse Ziragora -------Message original-------   De : cmushi.carol Date : 11/20/13 00:38:10 A : Seleli Edwin;  strictl...@googlegroups.com Sujet : Re: Re: QOTW - Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol?

--

Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370   Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com   Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email: strictlygospe...@googlegroups.com

[Seleli Edwin]

John R,

 

Is Patrick Kamera inputs generalize things? have you fairly considered them? real? well, I don't think so, to be honest!

 

With regard to  your response to my comment, since you urged me this way...'''Please let us first dig deeply at this start, because there are some issues to be addressed before jumping on the minor issues, then if necessary we will come back to clarify of these two issues of Cana, Galilee and Timothy as well, OKAY?''', then  I say Yes  will be waiting your work on Galilee WINE drinking Wedding

 

Press on,

 

Edwin Seleli

[Patrick Kamera]

My dear brother John,

I'm glad you regard the Lord Jesus as our High Priest today under the New Covenant and that is exactly my point. That means we are not under the Levitical Aaronic Priesthood of the Old Covenant.

In the Old Covenant all the High Priests and the Priests came from the family of Aaron of the tribe of Levi, and were not allowed to drink wine or any alcohol. In the New Covenant our High Priest Jesus Christ comes from the tribe of Judah and He not only drank wine but also made wine, a huge no-no for a Priest according to the Law. But in doing so Jesus did not break the Law of Moses, why? Because He was not of the Aaronic Levitical Priesthood order, see what I'm getting at? So for you to quote from Leviticus 10:8-11 and claim that applies to the New Covenant priesthood of all believers you have effectively disqualified Jesus, the very High Priest of the New Covenant Himself. You are on a slippery slope right there brother John, how can you miss the subject, the person to whom those instructions were given. Check out verse 8. 

8 Then the Lord said to Aaron, 9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the tent of meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, 10 so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and so you can teach the Israelites all the decrees the Lord has given them through Moses.” -  Leviticus 10:8-11 NIV (Emphasis added)

There we see it, Aaron was the High Priest and these instructions were specifically and exclusively for him and his descendants who would be priests of the Old Covenant for generations to come. It didn't apply to the other families of Levi nor did it apply to the other tribes. And so again, I repeat...Jesus the High Priest of the New Covenant is from the tribe of Judah not Levi. He is the Son of David not a descendant of Aaron. 

You see brother John, we must learn how to correctly divide the Word of Truth and distinguishing between the Old and New Covenants is the first step in that blessed direction. The verse in Hebrews 7 that I quoted in my previous replies, sheds some light on why Jesus Our High Priest who is also the Messenger of the New Covenant, ratified by His own Blood, acted differently from the Levitical Priesthood of His day, the Scriptures plainly state that:

12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. - Hebrews 7:12 NIV 

I recommend reading from verse 11 all the way to verse 16 

Has the Priesthood changed? Yes it has, we all agree that Jesus is our High Priest now and forever in the Order of Melchizedek, having offered Himself as a perfect sacrifice for our sins once and for all. The Aaronic Priestly order which offered animal sacrifices daily has ceased, as we all know, God isn't accepting any animal sacrifices today so that priestly order has passed.

The Priesthood has changed from being limited to the tribe of Levi and exclusively to Aaron's sons to the priesthood of all believers as you have clearly pointed out. Now as the Scripture states: A change in the Priesthood necessitates a change in the law. I humbly submit that, that includes the law governing priestly conduct as well.  

Brother John, here are my observations, please feel free to set the record straight:

You've failed to address the fact that Jesus - Our High Priest made wine, actually very good wine at that wedding at Cana, even the MC made a note of it and the Holy Spirit documented it for us in the Gospel of John..You've also failed to address the fact that Jesus our High Priest did drink wine and His disciples too. You see, if you cannot face those clearly documented accounts in Scripture honestly and truthfully, chances are you will have to resort to forceful tactics even misusing Scripture to defend your position and that in the long run, isn't of much help to anyone including yourself. 

You see brother John, in your zeal to defend your position, you've gone to great lengths to create arguments that I never raised, and your questions to me dear sir, are not tough as you suppose, but are rather..(mhhh how do I say this without coming across as a braggart)...vague and elementary, really! We who are in Christ and have been filled with His Spirit are to be lead by Him. He is more than capable of leading us and instructing us in not only what to eat and drink but also how to conduct ourselves in every area of life. Have we relegated the Holy Spirit to just our prayer times and "ministry" times in our congregations? Isn't one facet of the fruit of the Holy Spirit "Self-control"? Don't we know that the Kingdom of God is not in eating and drinking, but in Righteousness, Peace and Joy in the Holy Spirit? If we know the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we would gladly cooperate with Him and have no need of second guessing ourselves.  

You insinuate that based on Paul's advise to Timothy, I said people should "take alcoholic drink as their pleasure" and that isn't what I said, you might want to re-read my replies once again. I simply pointed out what everyone can clearly see in Scripture, in the New Testament, nonetheless. Actually there are a lot more verses in the Old Testament that speak positively of wine and strong drink. For example, there were wine offerings and we know nothing unclean was to be sacrificed on the altar but God demanded they sacrifice wine among other things, of course. He also blessed their vats with wine, He even instructed them spend their money in buying and drinking wine and even strong drink in celebration, should their hearts so desire (Deuteronomy 14:26, Proverbs 3:9, Exodus 29:38-40, Leviticus 23:13, Psalm 104:14-15 and on and on...you get the idea) 

Can alcohol destroy lives? Absolutely! Is smoking destructive? Certainly! Is overeating destructive? Without a doubt! This is all common knowledge to many if not all, there is overwhelming evidence of these facts around us. Now if a saint drinks alcohol will I condemn them or disqualify them as a Royal Priest unto God? Certainly not! Now if they get drunk then I'm to lovingly confront them (after they've sobered up, of course) with the truth of Scripture and encourage them to walk in the Spirit so they wouldn't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Drunkenness is what the Scriptures are explicitly against. Paul lists it as one of the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:21. I will also bring their attention to the potentially negative consequences of indulging in alcohol and remind them of what the apostle Paul wrote to Titus.

7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. - Titus 1:7 NIV (emphasis added)

2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance. 3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. - Titus 2:2-3 NIV (emphasis added)

Since Jesus made wine and drank wine and Paul advised Timothy to drink wine, my question to you brother John is simply this: Are you now disqualifying both Jesus and Paul from being High Priest and Priest unto God, respectively? Think about the implications of your assertions and how your respond to that question.

Tuendelee kujifunza

Blessings,

Patrick

[Magreth Mkiwa]

Is Drinking Alcohol A Sin?

by Wayne Blank

Fact: Jesus Christ never sinned, never:

"For we have not an High Priest [see also High Priest to King of The World] which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews 4:15 KJV)

Fact: The first recorded miracle of Jesus Christ was changing water into wine, for people to drink:

"And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him" (John 2:10-11 KJV)

Fact: Jesus Christ drank wine, not only at the Passover observance every year (and, as He said, will do again in the future after His return), but at other times as well, as stated in the Scriptures:

"And He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is My blood of the New Testament [see also Covenant and Testament], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom" (Matthew 26:27-29 KJV) [see also "Thy Kingdom Come" - When?]

"The Son of man is come eating and drinking" (Luke 7:34 KJV)

Question: Jesus Christ never sinned, but moderately drank wine, even miraculously produced wine for others to consume on one occasion. How then can drinking alcohol be a sin?

When Is It A Sin? When Isn't It A Sin?

Some people choose to totally abstain from alcohol, and the Scriptures don't say that they should start.

Some other people should totally abstain from alcohol, or remain totally abstinent from alcohol, because the Scriptures make plain why excessive alcohol consumption (i.e. "alcoholism") is very damaging, not just for the individual who can't control their behavior, but for their families and society as a whole who are hurt by them.

Still other people do drink, very moderately, and the Scriptures say that it's not wrong.

There is no one answer to the question "Is drinking alcohol a sin?" - for some people, in some ways, it is a sin, for others, in other ways, it's not a sin.

John the Baptist did not drink alcohol; Jesus Christ did drink alcohol in moderation (as explained further below, getting drunk is a sin, but Jesus Christ never sinned - therefore Jesus drank, but never got drunk) - and both were criticized for it, either way:

"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!" (Luke 7:33-34 KJV)

Those who use the term "demon alcohol," or terms like it, may wish to reconsider how they express it when it comes to Christianity. Jesus Christ did consume alcohol, but was absolutely spiritually pure - He warned about blaspheming the Holy Spirit in any way:

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Matthew 12:32 KJV)

Alcohol consumption becomes a sin when it corrupts righteous thought or behavior, harms health, or violates any civil law:

"Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine" (Proverbs 23:29-30 KJV)

"Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty" (Proverbs 23:20-21 KJV)

"And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess" (Ephesians 5:18 KJV)

"Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying." (Romans 13:13 KJV)

Fact Finder: Jesus Christ plainly stated that He will drink wine, at the very least for Passover (which will still be observed in the future) i.e. "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's Kingdom." (Matthew 26:29 KJV). Do the Scriptures also say that drunkards will be among those who will not be in the Kingdom of God?
1 Corinthians 6:10

On Thursday, 21 November 2013, 19:08, Magreth Mkiwa <mkiwam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

mjadala ulizungumzia waumini wa (Christians) sio viongozi wa Dini. kwa vyovyote vile kiongozi ni kama mwalimu. ukinywa utakosa busara ya kuongea na kuwaongoza watu. hata kazini meneja anayekunywa hafai na anafukuzwa mara moja. maana kampuni itakufa kwa maongozi mabaya yaliyokosa busara. hapa kuna mawili, pia tuangalie upande mwingine kuwa ukiviita vitu fulani ni dhambi, kama Mola hajamaanisha dhambi hapa una dhambi ya kuviita kuwa vina dhambi. hata kula ulafi ukaugua magonjwa yatokanayo na kula pia tunasemaje dhambi hii mbona haihubiriwi? magonjwa mengi yatokanayo na kula yamewamaliza watu wa ulimwengu. ulaya wanapambana na kupunguza uzito sana maana imekuwa tishio kwa afya zao. je tusile?je mtume Paulo anasemaje kuhusu kula na kunywa? mambo yote kwa kiasi.

[Magreth Mkiwa]

mjadala ulizungumzia waumini wa (Christians) sio viongozi wa Dini. kwa vyovyote vile kiongozi ni kama mwalimu. ukinywa utakosa busara ya kuongea na kuwaongoza watu. hata kazini meneja anayekunywa hafai na anafukuzwa mara moja. maana kampuni itakufa kwa maongozi mabaya yaliyokosa busara. hapa kuna mawili, pia tuangalie upande mwingine kuwa ukiviita vitu fulani ni dhambi, kama Mola hajamaanisha dhambi hapa una dhambi ya kuviita kuwa vina dhambi. hata kula ulafi ukaugua magonjwa yatokanayo na kula pia tunasemaje dhambi hii mbona haihubiriwi? magonjwa mengi yatokanayo na kula yamewamaliza watu wa ulimwengu. ulaya wanapambana na kupunguza uzito sana maana imekuwa tishio kwa afya zao. je tusile?je mtume Paulo anasemaje kuhusu kula na kunywa? mambo yote kwa kiasi.

On Thursday, 21 November 2013, 2:03, Linus Masumbuko <linusma...@yahoo.ie> wrote:

[Patrick Kamera]

Good observation brother Edwin,

Interesting point of view brother Alphonse. 

Sister Magreth, that's a very helpful article you posted, 

Good inputs all around,

Tuendelee kujifunza,

Blessings,

Patrick

[Seleli Edwin]

Patrick Kamera and  Magret Mkiwa,

I am following up this discussion(actually hot yet lovable debate to be sincere) dot to dot and all I can say so far, your previous and this time inputs, are almost beyond reach  in its smartness and facts, its contents are indisputable indeed .

I may feel to chip in  when  John R and  Dr. Masumbuko  face my questions about WINE drinking Wedding at Cana of Galilee, otherwise, I am pretty sure that we have dealt with this subject satisfactorily.

Press on.

Edwin Seleli

Edwin Seleli

[Tusekelege Tuse]

Question: "What does the Bible say about drinking alcohol / wine? Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol / wine?"

Answer: Scripture has much to say regarding the drinking of alcohol (Leviticus 10:9; Numbers 6:3; Deuteronomy 29:6; Judges 13:4, 7, 14; Proverbs 20:1; 31:4; Isaiah 5:11, 22; 24:9; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12). However, Scripture does not necessarily forbid a Christian from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. In fact, some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…”

What God commands Christians regarding alcohol is to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18). The Bible condemns drunkenness and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35). Christians are also commanded to not allow their bodies to be “mastered” by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Drinking alcohol in excess is undeniably addictive. Scripture also forbids a Christian from doing anything that might offend other Christians or encourage them to sin against their conscience (1 Corinthians 8:9-13). In light of these principles, it would be extremely difficult for any Christian to say he is drinking alcohol in excess to the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31).

Jesus changed water into wine. It even seems that Jesus drank wine on occasion (John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29). In New Testament times, the water was not very clean. Without modern sanitation, the water was often filled with bacteria, viruses, and all kinds of contaminants. The same is true in many third-world countries today. As a result, people often drank wine (or grape juice) because it was far less likely to be contaminated. In 1 Timothy 5:23, Paul was instructing Timothy to stop drinking the water (which was probably causing his stomach problems) and instead drink wine. In that day, wine was fermented (containing alcohol), but not necessarily to the degree it is today. It is incorrect to say that it was grape juice, but it is also incorrect to say that it was the same thing as the wine commonly used today. Again, Scripture does not forbid Christians from drinking beer, wine, or any other drink containing alcohol. Alcohol is not, in and of itself, tainted by sin. It is drunkenness and addiction to alcohol that a Christian must absolutely refrain from (Ephesians 5:18; 1 Corinthians 6:12).

Alcohol, consumed in small quantities, is neither harmful nor addictive. In fact, some doctors advocate drinking small amounts of red wine for its health benefits, especially for the heart. Consumption of small quantities of alcohol is a matter of Christian freedom. Drunkenness and addiction are sin. However, due to the biblical concerns regarding alcohol and its effects, due to the easy temptation to consume alcohol in excess, and due to the possibility of causing offense and/or stumbling of others, it is often best for a Christian to abstain from drinking alcohol.

Recommended Resources: God Is for the Alcoholic by Bernard Palmer and Logos Bible Software.

While he is not the author of every article on GotQuestions.org, for citation purposes, you may reference our CEO, S. Michael Houdmann.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcohol.html#ixzz2ljxDtFuM

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Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
 

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[John Rwezaura]

IT IS SIN FOR CHRISTIANS (BELIEVERS) TO DRINK ALCOHOL.

When I was preaching the Gospel in 1980s someone asked me a critic question. Is it sin to any person to take cigarette? His argument was based on the silence of scripture on the matter.

Concerning alcoholic drinks, the same question comes, depending on the act of Jesus in Canna, Galilee and the order of Paul to Timothy. 

In the Old Testament to all people there was no prohibition of alcohol even to Priests. The restriction was at the time when the priest goes in the tabernacle to reconcile people with God. As we argue, we are aware of this setup. Another point to be considered in this matter is that, the term PRIEST is in continuation with the New Testament. 1 Peter 2:5,9 AMP;

[5] Come and, like living stones, be yourselves built into a spiritual house, for a holy (dedicated, consecrated) priesthood, to offer up those spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ. [9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, God's own purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

I asked very specific questions, the arguer didn't show his side in these two!

- Are believers in Christ priests today or not? If the answer is Yes,

- What is the specific time of entering in the work of worship and giving sacrifice?

What I know is that, all believers are chosen priests. Are also dedicated people to offer spiritual sacrifices. The business of giving sacrifice is a daily bases Work. Which means that the same concept of God towards priests is still standing to these important people (believers). Romans, 12:2 AMP

[2] Do not be conformed to this world (this age), fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs, but be transformed (changed) by the entire renewal of your mind by its new ideals and its new attitude, so that you may prove for yourselves what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect in His sight for you.

THE WEDDING IN CANA OF GALILEE

John 2:6-8 AMP

[6] Now there were six waterpots of stone standing there, as the Jewish custom of purification (ceremonial washing) demanded, holding twenty to thirty gallons apiece. [7] Jesus said to them, Fill the waterpots with water. So they filled them up to the brim. [8] Then He said to them, Draw some out now and take it to the manager of the feast to the one presiding, the superintendent of the banquet. So they took him some.

Look carefully when you use this text as an example to defend your point. John 2:3 AMP

[3] And when the wine was all gone, the mother of Jesus said to Him, They have no more wine!

This verse means that the wine was finished and the all vessels were empty! If the wine would be something to be honored, the same vessels would be used to replace the finished wine. But it is amazing that Jesus decides to use, NDOO ZA BAFUNI! Just imagine if the guest of honor would be aware that the wine is from purification pot and not from wine emptied vessels!

Above is the concern point, but the point to consider is that, Jesus ministered in the period of Old Testament before offering himself for our sins. The New Testament started after the Cross, when Jesus made all believers to become Priests, holy nation, who can offer spiritual sacrifices to the LORD in daily bases activities.

This means, to defend alcoholic drinks as something refresher even to the saints today, is to build the argument on the weak point. Admiring, enjoying, seeing as an important drink, thinking that Pombe is good, this is a big weakness to christians. 

KUMBUKA: Paulo anasema hivi, "msilewe kwa mvinyo 'ambamo mna 'ufisadi' bali mjazwe Roho". Inashangaza sana kuona kanachukuliwa kaneno kamoja tu ka 'msilewe' hivyo kujaribu kuhalalisha kunywa kidogo, lakini theme au ujumbe  wa mstari huo ni "ufisadi" uliomo ndani ya kilevi.  Naweza kusema kwa uwazi kwamba, wanywaji wa pombe wote ni MAFISADI.

DRINK A LITTLE WINE 1 Timothy 5:23 AMP

[23] Drink water no longer exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

It is better to be silent and avoid this verse to defend drinking alcohol. Paul gives the reason why he argues Timothy to drink little wine. It is for illness of his stomach. I always ask question in my arguments:

- us who defend alcoholic drinks, do we have stomach problems?

- can you see the fact that Timothy as a faithful christian was free from wine before the order of Apostle Paul? Although we are not sure if he accepted the order and took the little wine. 

To sum up my point, the matter is debated all over the world among christians. It is the matter of an individual decision after getting clear understanding the danger of defending alcohol among christians. Also, the issue is carried by scholars especially some christian denominational leaders who steer people to drink. So, I don't think my truth can change the one who is looking for only argument and depending on his/her own current leaders who say 'just drink little and not get drunk'. But what I know is that there is a big deferent between those born again Christians who by the grace of God, they know, feel in their minds and hearts, the zeal of God to those who abuse the work of priesthood by engaging themselves in drinking alcohol. Moreover, those who drink are the witnesses of the truth that no one can drink little alcohol. Most people especially WASTAARABU, they take their drinks at home so that in their drinking after getting drunk, no one can know them. Let us stand on the truth, instead of defending alcohol from weak points.

JOHN

Sent from my iPad

[Magreth Mkiwa]

nakuongezea majibu uliyotaka ya harusini CANA .Sikukuu hii pata glass moja shushia pilao yako. lala

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-water-wine.html.

Question: "Did Jesus change the water into wine or grape juice?"

Answer: John chapter 2 records Jesus performing a miracle at a wedding in Cana of Galilee. At the wedding, the hosts ran out of wine. Jesus' mother, Mary, asks Jesus to intervene, and He does so, reluctantly. Jesus has the servants bring six jars filled with water and then instructs the servants to give it to the overseer of the celebration. The water miraculously turns into wine, and the overseer declares that it was the best wine he had ever tasted. In this account, Jesus performed an amazing miracle, actually altering the molecular composition of the water, changing it into wine. The point of the account is summarized in John 2:11, "He thus revealed His glory, and His disciples put their faith in Him." Usually, though, when this passage is studied, a side issue becomes the main issue. Did Jesus transform the water into wine (fermented, alcoholic) or into grape juice (non-alcoholic)?

Throughout the passage, the Greek word translated "wine" is oinos, which was the common Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic. The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is the same word for the wine the wedding feast ran out of. The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol. Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of oinos in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol. There is simply no solid historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

Those who oppose the drinking of alcohol, in any quantity, argue that Jesus would not have turned the water into wine, as He would have been promoting the consumption of a substance that is tainted by sin. In this understanding, alcohol itself is inherently sinful, and consumption of alcohol in any quantity is sin. That is not a biblical understanding, however. Some Scriptures discuss alcohol in positive terms. Ecclesiastes 9:7 instructs, “Drink your wine with a merry heart.” Psalm 104:14-15 states that God gives wine “that makes glad the heart of men.” Amos 9:14 discusses drinking wine from your own vineyard as a sign of God’s blessing. Isaiah 55:1 encourages, “Yes, come buy wine and milk…” From these and other Scriptures, it is clear that alcohol itself is not inherently sinful. Rather, it is the abuse of alcohol, drunkenness and/or addiction, that is sinful (Ephesians 5:18; Proverbs 23:29-35; 1 Corinthians 6:12; 2 Peter 2:19). Therefore, it would not have been a sin for Jesus to create a drink that contained alcohol.

A second, related argument is that by creating alcoholic wine, Jesus would have been promoting drunkenness, which the Bible clear identifies as sinful. This is not a valid argument. Was Jesus promoting gluttony when He multiplied the fishes and loaves far beyond what the people needed? Of course not. Creating a substance that can be abused does not make one responsible when another person foolishly chooses to abuse it. Jesus creating alcoholic wine was in no sense encouraging drunkenness.

The belief that Jesus created alcoholic wine is definitely more in agreement with the context and the definition/usage of oinos. The primary reasons for interpreting it as grape juice, that alcohol is inherently sinful or that the creation of alcohol would have been encouraging drunkenness, are unbiblical and invalid. There is simply no good biblical reason to understand John 2 as anything other than Jesus performing an amazing miracle by turning water into real wine. Is drunkenness sinful? Absolutely! Is addiction sinful? Definitely. Would Jesus turning the water into alcoholic wine in any way violate God's standards regarding the consumption of alcohol? Absolutely not!

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-water-wine.html#ixzz4Oj7aQLE8

[Yusufu Rhobi]

Alcohol it is not Good according to  Genesis 9:21

---

From: Tusekelege Tuse <tusek...@yahoo.com>
To: "strictl...@googlegroups.com" <strictl...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 12:57 AM

[ha...@udsm.ac.tz]

Da Magreth....

Kwanini iwe glass moja na sio tatu au Nne

[Seleli Edwin]

Haule,


Yaani nimecheka mpaka basi your logical searching question

Magret... unalo hilo..jibu sasa, why kamoja tu-ingawa nilicheka sana  ulivyosema kua kushushia kwa moja

Press on,

Edwin Seleli

[Magreth Mkiwa]

kwa vile kichwa hakijazoea, moja inatosha. ukianza na nne utalewa, na point yetu, usilewe. kama chakula sahani moja inakutosha, ukila mbili ndipo pale unaitwa mlafi. kitakachofuata ni kuongezeka uzito kwa kasi na kupata magonjwa yatokanayo na kula kupita kiasi, kama kisukari, magonjwa ya moyo na kadhalika. kila mtu ana ukiasi wake. ukiasi wangu sio wako. kuna mtu atakunywa cret na hajalewa.

[Gladys JB]

Beloved,
Kila jambo Mungu wetu analoruhusu ulione, usikie au utende anayo sababu ya msingi na wala si bahati mbaya. Na ukiamua kuitafuta sbb hiyo hakika utaipata. (Isaya 45:11a)

Kwa neema ya Mungu tumejaliwa kuona, kusikia ama kuusoma ushuhuda wa mtumishi John Mulinde and how strong it was and still is. Kweli kwa mtu uliye seroius na safari ya mbinguni hutakazania habari za glass moja ya wine or alcohol.

1. ya nini?
2. Inakuongezea nini na inapunguza nini usipoipata?

Nauliza hivi kwa sbb twapasa kukumbuka kuwa hapa kanisani tunao watoto wachanga sn kiroho na wakomavu (wauwezao mfupa wa neno) na wale ambao hawajaokoka kabisa ila wanamwita Yesu na kusali kwa jina lake. Hatuoni kama ni hatari sana kwa wale ambao bado wanahitaji maziwa ili waukulie wokovu wao kuendelea kuijadili na kuishabikia mada ya alcohol?

Wapo ambao hata RM hawajajazwa, unapomwambia glass moja tu, hainiingii akilini. Hivi kabla ya wokovu wako uliwahi kunywa moja ukaridhika? (kwa uliyewahi kunywa pombe)
Ni kwa kiasi na kasi gani utamsaidia mtu asiye na ufahamu kama wako kuidhibiti nafsi yake ambayo bado haina RM kwa kiwango cha kupambanua ya rohoni na ya mwilini (namaanisha lipi liachwe na lipi lifanywe kimungu)

KWANGU MIMI NAONA TUNAFANYA MZAHA. TENA HUU NI MZAHA WA HATARI SANA.

NAMSIHI KILA MMOJA AKAUSOME TENA USHUHUDA WA JOHN MULINDE KISHA TAFAKARI KWA KUYAANGALIA MAISHA YAKO MWENYEWE v/s NENO. Maisha na shuhuda za wengine vitutoe mahali tutamani kusogea mbele. Tusiwe wasomaji na wasikiaji wasahaulifu. Je ni kwamba tumezimika rohoni au?

KWANGU POMBE HUWA NAIWEKA KTK KUNDI LA KUIPENDA DUNIA NA ANASA ZAKE.

UNAYO MAAMUZI MAANA WEWE PIA NI MTU MZIMA. NA IKIWA UZIMA NA MAUTI, LAANA NA BARAKA VIMEWEKWA MBELE YAKO, UNAYO NJIA YA KUIFUATA KWA MAAMUZI YAKO SAHIHI.

WAPENDWA HATUTAENDA JEHANAMU KWA UZINZI BALI MAMBO MADOGO2 SANA TUNAYOYAONA HALALI. kumb. SI kila KITU NI HALALI kwako hata kama kinafaa.

KILA MMOJA AAMUE MWENYEWE NAFSINI MWAKE, SBB RM KILA MMOJA ANAYE km huna OMBA utapewa tena Mungu anamgawa si kwa Uchoyo (Kipimo).


NI MPITAJI TU NA HUO NI MTAZAMO WANGU,

NAWAPENDA NYOTE, SINCE IT IS COMMANDED SO.


GLADYS.

[ha...@udsm.ac.tz]

Da Magreth.....

Kama point yenu hamtaki kulewa...sasa kwenye glass moja unatafuta nini!
furaha! na kuchangamka! ....enenda kwa hekima Efe5:15; Lawi10:10..be
filled with the Spirit,".....pata furaha ya kweli na kuchangamka.
Yatupasa kuwa wakuu mbele za Bwana.





Mjoli Haule

[Seleli Edwin]

Gladys,

Unafundisha Neno bila shaka na audience yako ni mchanganyiko ina wa leo, juzi, juzi kati na well why not na wa tmr? sasa, unaulizwa na student mmoja, hili andiko la Arusi ya Kana Mwalimu mbona silielewi, nifafanulie, WHAT WILL BE YOUR RESPONSE? niko na hamu kujua hilo maana nimekutana nayo sana napofanya huduma na kufundisha Neno, aya utapangua/pepeta/kabiliana vipi iyo ngoma? say something Gladys mtumishi.

By the way, sijui unajua kua we cannot be more spiritual than the Bible itself? Kama RM aliona vema iwe recorded ivyo kua ni muujiza wa kwanza wa Bwana huo, why kusikia ukakasi kukubali kua hilo nalo ni Neno la Bwana? ni personal msimamo ku feel ukakasi huo au ni Godly? check yourself/think about it  for a second my dada.

Wachanga humu ivi mpka lini watakua wachanga?, i wish tungewajua na wangekua wana show up u know  kuuliza maswali, kuitikia topics, mada nyingi zinazowabariki, ku-appreciate mana zinaletwa humu, kupenda kujifunza kwa kutaka topic kadhaa zijadiliwe na kufundishwa but hao siwaonagi mie angalau watutie moyo na wao, may be tuna-ssume nini siku zote izi au twatamka kwa imani tu? najaribu kuwaza tu kwa uhakika.

However hata kama wapo, watakujaga kujua tu coz imeandikwa humo, hence kujua now na kujua tmr kweli/fact fulani ktk Bible, makes no difference i guess. yaani hasipoiona hapa live tuna jadili, bado hatakumbana nayo ktk kujisomea mwenyewe Bible..see what am saying?!..so no big deal as such kwa kweli au vipi kwani hii kitu, si ndio dada au unasemaje Mwl. Gladys?

NOTICE:  Hakuna anayetetea kunywa/kulewa pombe, despite kulewa ndio major concern ya Neno kwa wote na kunywa kwa selected persons,  only one thing we are doing hapa, ni ku face the facts/truths ktk maandiko kama ilivyoandikwa na kufanya fafanuzi yake bila kukataa icho cha ukweli kilichoandikwa, no twisting of what truly we are doing hapa.

Press on,

Edwin Seleli

On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com> wrote:

Magret,

Du! creti moja and no kulewa!!!!!!!!!!! that person is severely demonised aisee! lo!

Anyway, what is needed ya kujifunza toka this topic is clear...otherwise ni kufosi concepts into scriptures no matter how sweet and spiritual may be... Ndio na iwe ndio, hapana, hapana..It is PLAINLY AND CLEARLY Written Yesu mwenyewe our role mode change Water into Wine, thas it, deal done, no less or more maana yazidiyo hapo yatoka kwa muovu kama ilivyoandikwa au in this case, yatoka kwa  good man-made efforts yet none, rarely or remotely scriptural backed up.

Press on

[Seleli Edwin]

Magret,

Du! creti moja and no kulewa!!!!!!!!!!! that person is severely demonised aisee! lo!

Anyway, what is needed ya kujifunza toka this topic is clear...otherwise ni kufosi concepts into scriptures no matter how sweet and spiritual may be... Ndio na iwe ndio, hapana, hapana..It is PLAINLY AND CLEARLY Written Yesu mwenyewe our role mode change Water into Wine, thas it, deal done, no less or more maana yazidiyo hapo yatoka kwa muovu kama ilivyoandikwa au in this case, yatoka kwa  good man-made efforts yet none, rarely or remotely scriptural backed up.

Press on

[John Rwezaura]

WAPENDWA KATIKA BWANA

HAKIKA NI DHAMBI KWA WAKRISTO (walio ktk Kristo) KUNYWA POMBE

Wapendwa niliandika kwenu kwa lugha ya kiingereza kujibu hoja za baadhi ya wanaotetea unywaji wa pombe kwa kisingizio cha muujiza wa Kana ya Galilaya pale Yesu alipogeza maji kuwa divai, na agizo la Paulo kwa Timotheo kwamba atumie mvinyo kidogo kwa ajili ya magonjwa ya tumbo yampatqyo mara kwa mara. Nimeona niitafsiri kwa ajili ya marafiki wote waliofurahishwa na mchango wangu huo, yumkini nikaeleweka vyema zaidi na kwa wengi.

Kabla ya kutafsiri nnapenda kuweka wazi mambo machache. Biblia ni kitabu cha kipekee katika dunia na ni tofauti sana na korani tukufu. Inaaminika kwamba maadishi ya korani yalishushwa na Alah kwa mtume wake, kwa maana hiyo uhitaji kufukiri wala kujifunza bali na kuikariri kama ilivyo basi. Kwa upande wake Biblia kimeandikwa kwa njia la logic and conceptual to understanding. Ukipoteza concept na logic ndani ya Biblia, unaweza kulala bar ukiimba nyimbo za rumwimbie Bwana, tenzimza rohoni, nyimbo za dini, ukidhani kuwa Mungu anakubaliana nawe. Ukitaka kuitumia Biblia kutetea unalotaka, nakuhakikishia utakuta hata huko kulewa utaona si dhambi.

Basi naomba ufuatane nami katika mchakato mzima wa kuonesha kuwa kunywa pombe ni dhambi kwa mwamini. (Kiingereza chake nimekiambatanisha chini).

TAFSIRI

NI DHAMBI KWA MKRISTO (MWAMINI) KUNYWA POMBE

wakati nikihubiri injili mnamo miaka ya 1980, mtu mmoja aliniuliza swali gumu. "Hivi ni dhambi kuvuta sigara?" Alikuwa akionesha kwamba Biblia iko kimya katika jambo hilo. Kuhusiana na unywaji wa pombe, swali hilohilo linaulizwa kwa njia hiyohiyo, "Je, kunywa pombe ni dhambi?" Utetezi wa walevi ni muujiza aliotenda Yesu kule Kana kwenye arusi, na agizo la Mtume Paulo kwa Timotheo, kwamba atumie mvinyo kidogo kwa ajili ya magonjwa ya tumbo yampatqyo mara kwa mara.

Katika Agano la kale, watu wote wakiwemo makuhani, hawakizuiwa kunywa divai. Kizuizi cha Mungu kiliwekwa kwa makuhani wa zamu hasa wakati wa kuingia hekaluni kusongeza sadaka kwa ajili ya watu. Kwa hiyo tunaposema kwamba pombe ni dhambi kwa wana wa Mungu, hayo tunayajua vyema. Jambo jingine la kulifqhqmu ni kwamba, huduma ya kikuhani na kupelekq dhabihu mbele za Mungu inaendelea hadi sasa katika Agano Jipya, tene imeboreshwa zaidi 1Petro 2:5,9. Kwa hiyo wana wa Mungu ni makuhani na wanatoa dhabihu kila siku au kila wakati mbele za Mungu.

Nilimuuliza bwana Patrick maswali mawili muhimu kwa makisudi, japokuwa hakutilia maanani maswali hayo.

1. Hivi unaamini kwamba walio katika Kristo Yesu ni Makuhani wa leo ama hapana? Kama jibu ni ndiyo, 

2. Ni wakati gani wanatakiwa kuwa mbele za Mungu wakitoa dhabihu?

Kitu ninachokijua na kiko wazi katika Biblia ni kwamba waaminio halisi wote ni makuhani na wanatoa dhabihu za roho kila siku. (Warumi 12:1, 2). 

HARUSI YA KANA YA GALILAYA (YOHANA 2:6-8)

Inahitika hekima ya Mungu tunapoyasoma maandiko ya Biblia. Mtu mwenye akili hawezi kuutumia muujiza wa Yesu kutetea pombe. Kwanza divai ilikuwa imeisha, kwa maana hiyo, vyombo vya kunywea au viriba vilikuwa wazi au vitupu. Yesu akaamua kutumia MANALASI YA KUTAWADHIA (kwa desturi ya wayahudi)! Pombe ingekuwa kitu cha heshima, ilikuwa rahisi kutumia viriba ambavyo ni maalum kwa kuifadia divai.

Hapo juu ni wapo linalonijia kichwani siyo lazima likubalike sana. Lakini jambo ninalotaka kuliweka bayana ni kwamba Yesu alitenda kazi katika Agano la Kale kabla hajamwaga damu yake kwa ajili yetu, na si jipya. Agano jipya limeanza baada ya Msalaba. Baada ya msalaba, sisi sote tulip pokea kuwa Mwokozi wetu, tumefanyika kuwa ukihani wa kifalme, ili tutoe dhabihu zinazokubaliwa na Mungu. Kwa kweli kujenga hoja ya kunywa pombe katika arusi ya kana, ni kujaribu kuitetea kwa kutumia ushahidi dhaifu sana, na huu ni udhaifu mkubwa kwa wakristo wanaotetea pombe.

KUMBUKA: Paulo anasema hivi, "msilewe kwa mvinyo 'ambamo mna 'ufisadi' bali mjazwe Roho". Inashangaza sana kuona kanachukuliwa kaneno kamoja tu ka 'msilewe' hivyo kujaribu kuhalalisha kunywa kidogo, lakini theme au ujumbe  wa mstari huo ni "ufisadi" uliomo ndani ya kilevi.  Naweza kusema kwa uwazi kwamba, wanywaji wa pombe wote ni MAFISADI.

KUNYWA MVINYO KIDOGO KWA AJILI YA MAGONJWA YAKUPATAYO

hiki ni kituko kingine cha kutetea pombe kwa kutumia mfano wa Paulo kwa Timotheo! 

Mara nyingi huwa napenda kuuliza maswali.

- hivi sisi tunaotetea pombe kwa siy dhambi, tuna magonjwa ya tumbo yatupatayo mara kwa mara?

- Je, unaweza kuuona ukweli kwamba Timotheo hakuwa anakunywa pombe katika ukristo wake?

Pia hatuna ushahidi endapo alikubaliana na ushauri wa Mtume Paulo, maana Paulo hakipata nafasi teme ya kukutana na Mtoto wake wa kiroho.

Kwa kufisha ni kwamba, mjadala wa kutetea pombe haujaanza leo na utaendelea vizazi nenda rudi endapo Yesu atakuwa hajarudi. Linabaki kuwa suala la mtu binafsi katika akili yake kujiruhusu katika kujifunza mapenzi ya Mungu. Hii inategemea viongozi wako wa kiroho wanakuongoza vipi. Kama uko chini ya kiongozi anayesema kunywa kidogo siyo dhambi, nasikitika kusema kwamba una kazi nzito. Kimsingi sitazamii kwamba kwa maelezo yangu hayo, naweza kumbadili nia mtu ambaye kazi yake ni mabishano na si kujifunza na ameamini maongozi ya wanaosema 'kunywa kidogo ila usilewe'. Lakini ninachojua ni hiki, iko tofauti kubwa kati ya waliozaliwa mara ya pili na wakristo wafuasi wa dini. Walizaliwa na Mungu wqn ufahamu wa kutosha na hawahitaji kufundishwa kwamba BABA hapendi wao kujihusisha katika kuburudishwa na pombe, na jinsi anavyochukizwa na wote wanaochezea nafasi ya ukihani waliyopewa kwa dhamana ya damu ya Yesu. Pia, wale wote wnaotetea kunywa kidogo, wqnajua wazi kwamba hawawezi kunywa kidogo hata siku moja. Isipokuwa wastaarabu huwa wananunua pombe zao wananywea nyumbani, ili wqkilewa, walale bila kumbughudhi mtu. 

Wapendwa katika BWANA, badala ya kutumia nguvu kubwa kutetea pombe, Hebu na tusimame katika KWELI YA MUNGU nasi tutaponywa wakati wa kuja kwake BWANA.

MJOLI

JOHN

IT IS SIN FOR CHRISTIANS (BELIEVERS) TO DRINK ALCOHOL.

When I was preaching the Gospel in 1980s someone asked me a critic question. Is it sin to any person to take cigarette? His argument was based on the silence of scripture on the matter.

Concerning alcoholic drinks, the same question comes, depending on the act of Jesus in Canna, Galilee and the order of Paul to Timothy. 

In the Old Testament to all people there was no prohibition of alcohol even to Priests. The restriction was at the time when the priest goes in the tabernacle to reconcile people with God. As we argue, we are aware of this setup. Another point to be considered in this matter is that, the term PRIEST is in continuation with the New Testament. 1 Peter 2:5,9 AMP;

[5] Come and, like living stones, be yourselves built into a spiritual house, for a holy (dedicated, consecrated) priesthood, to offer up those spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable and pleasing to God through Jesus Christ. [9] But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, God's own purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

I asked very specific questions, the arguer didn't show his side in these two!

- Are believers in Christ priests today or not? If the answer is Yes,

- What is the specific time of entering in the work of worship and giving sacrifice?

What I know is that, all believers are chosen priests. Are also dedicated people to offer spiritual sacrifices. The business of giving sacrifice is a daily bases Work. Which means that the samconcept of God towards priests is still standing to these important people (believers).Romans, 12:1,2

[2] Do not be conformed to this world (this age), fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs, but be transformed (changed) by the entire renewal of your mind by its new ideals and its new attitude, so that you may prove for yourselves what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect in His sight for you.

THE WEDDING IN CANA OF GALILEE

John 2:6-8 AMP

[6] Now there were six waterpots of stone standing there, as the Jewish custom of purification (ceremonial washing) demanded, holding twenty to thirty gallons apiece. [7] Jesus said to them, Fill the waterpots with water. So they filled them up to the brim. [8] Then He said to them, Draw some out now and take it to the manager of the feast to the one presiding, the superintendent of the banquet. So they took him some.

Look carefully when you use this text as an example to defend your point. John 2:3 AMP

[3] And when the wine was all gone, the mother of Jesus said to Him, They have no more wine!

This verse means that the wine was finished and the all vessels were empty! If the wine would be something to be honored, the same vessels would be used to replace the finished wine. But it is amazing that Jesus decides to use, NDOO ZA BAFUNI! Just imagine if the guest of honor would be aware that the wine is from purification pot and not from wine emptied vessels!

Above is the concern point, but the point to consider is that, Jesus ministered in the period of Old Testament before offering himself for our sins. The New Testament started after the Cross, when Jesus made all believers to become Priests, holy nation, who can offer spiritual sacrifices to the LORD in daily bases activities.

This means, to defend alcoholic drinks as something refresher even to the saints today, is to build the argument on the weak point. Admiring, enjoying, seeing as an important drink, thinking that Pombe is good, this is a big weakness to christians. 

KUMBUKA: Paulo anasema hivi, "msilewe kwa mvinyo 'ambamo mna 'ufisadi' bali mjazwe Roho". Inashangaza sana kuona kanachukuliwa kaneno kamoja tu ka 'msilewe' hivyo kujaribu kuhalalisha kunywa kidogo, lakini theme au ujumbe  wa mstari huo ni "ufisadi" uliomo ndani ya kilevi.  Naweza kusema kwa uwazi kwamba, wanywaji wa pombe wote ni MAFISADI.

DRINK A LITTLE WINE 1 Timothy 5:23 AMP

[23] Drink water no longer exclusively, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.

It is better to be silent and avoid this verse to defend drinking alcohol. Paul gives the reason why he argues Timothy to drink little wine. It is for illness of his stomach. I always ask question in my arguments:

- us who defend alcoholic drinks, do we have stomach problems?

- can you see the fact that Timothy as a faithful christian was free from wine before the order of Apostle Paul? Although we are not sure if he accepted the order and took the little wine. 

To sum up my point, the matter is debated all over the world among christians. It is the matter of an individual decision after getting clear understanding the danger of defending alcohol among christians. Also, the issue is carried by scholars especially some christian denominational leaders who steer people to drink. So, I don't think my truth can change the one who is looking for only argument and depending on his/her own current leaders who say 'just drink little and not get drunk'. But what I know is that there is a big deferent between those born again Christians who by the grace of God, they know, feel in their minds and hearts, the zeal of God to those who abuse the work of priesthood by engaging themselves in drinking alcohol. Moreover, those who drink are the witnesses of the truth that no one can drink little alcohol. Most people especially WASTAARABU, they take their drinks at home so that in their drinking after getting drunk, no one can know them. Let us stand on the truth, instead of defending alcohol from weak points.

JOHN

Sent from my iPad

Sent from my iPad

[Magreth Mkiwa]

glass ya pombe ni mojawapo ya mlo mezani. kama kiroho tumeona sio dhambi kutumia kidogo, basi na wale watafiti wa kidaktari wanasemaje? hakuna kilichowekwa na Mola bila kuwa na manufaa, ila wewe tu na matumizi yako mabaya. kama dawa panadol unaambiwa kunywa 2 tu usizidishe utapona maumivu yako. wewe ukatumia 10 ili upone haraka, utakuwa umekiuka matumizi yake na utakuwa umejiua kwa mikono yako. hivyo panadol haitaitwa kuwa ni mbaya bali wewe uliyeitumia vibaya.

kiafya tuangalie:
www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2512175/Alcohol-good-health-leading-science-writer-claims-triple-prevent-cancer-help-improve-sex-life.html

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> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili
> wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
> kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
> Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714
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> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili
> wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
> kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
> Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714
> 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
> Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
>
> Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
>
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Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370

Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com

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[Tusekelege Tuse]

KUMBE ALCOHOL INAONDOA UTAKATIFU

 

KUMBUKA WAKATI MALAIKA KAMTOKEA ZAKARIA KULE HEKALUNI AKITABIRI KUZALIWA KWA YOHANA MTAKATIFU

ALIMPA MASHARTI YEYE NA MKE WAKE WASINYWE KILEO CHOCHOTE MPAKA ATAKAPOZALIWA MTOTO.

 

THE SAME TO JESUS CHRIST THE SAME ANGEL WENT TO MARY WITH THE SAME MESSAGE FOR THE JESUS CHRIST KWAMBA ASINYWE KILEO CHOCHOTE  MAANA ATAKACHOKIZAA NI KITAKATIFU.

 

I DONT SEE AT BIBLE WHERE THIS TWO JOHN AND JESUS KAMA WALIONJA KILEO ,MOREEVER ALITENGENEZA POMBE PALE KANA JUST FOR HIS GLORY.

 

NI MTIHANI MKUBWA.

 

KAMA MAMA YAKO ALIPOBEBA MIMBA YA WEWE NA ALIKUWA ANAKUNYWA INAKUWAJE HAPO.TUMWACHIE MUNGU.

 

 

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> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili
> wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
> kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
> Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714
> 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
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> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili
> wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
> kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
> Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714
> 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
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Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370

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[Daudi Mlaule]

Hata Mungu asingesema Pombe HAIFAI, yenyewe tu tayari sio nzuri "by nature". Kinywaji gani ambacho UKINYWA KINAVURUGA AKILI na kikawa chema? POMBE HAIFAI "FULL STOP" Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

---

From: ha...@udsm.ac.tz <ha...@udsm.ac.tz>;
To: <strictl...@googlegroups.com>;

Subject: Re: Re: QOTW - Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol?

Sent: Tue, Dec 3, 2013 3:14:09 PM

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> -- Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370 Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

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[anna Msongela]

well said Gladys..naunga mkono kwa asilimia zote

kama kweli umejazwa RM you cant think of having that...glass moja ili iweje? ili ikusaidie nini?..

barikiwa.

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> --
> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili
> wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
> kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
> Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714
> 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
> Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
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> Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
>  
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> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili
> wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
> kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
> Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714
> 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
> Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
>
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Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370

Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com

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[Gladys JB]

Mpendwa Seleli,
 
Napenda tu tukumbushane kuwa mambo mengi BWANA Yesu aliyoyafanya kabla ya kifo chake
yalifanyika ktk ishara za kimwili yaki-represent tafsiri za kiroho kwa sababu Alikuwa hajatukuzwa bado.

Ni vizuri pia utambue yako maandiko katika Biblia ambayo yalinenwa na Mungu Baba direct, yapo yaliyonenwa na Mwana direct,  yapo yaliyonenwa na RM kupitia vinywa vya watu mbalimbali, yapo yaliyonenwa na watu kama maagizo yao kwa ajili ya BWANA mf Paulo, Suleiman etc na yapo yaliyonenwa na shetani.

So unapolishikilia neno fulani ujue kwanza lilinenwa na nani?, kwa kina nani? na kwa kusudi gani? Muktadha wake ni nini? na kwako leo linakusaidia nini au linakusaidiaje?

Ndiposa najibu swali lako kwa ufunuo.

Yesu Kristo ni mkuu wa UZIMA. Sote tunajua kuwa moyo wake hauna uovu wala kinywa chake hakineni ovu hata moja. Na kama ni hivyo basi tunakubaliana kuwa hawezi kukuruhusu wewe uingie kwenye uovu au utende kinyume na mapenzi yake.

Kitendo chake cha kugeuza MAJI kuwa DIVAI ni ishara yake ya kiungu na uwezo wa kugeuza KITU KIBAYA/MTU MBAYA KUWA CHEMA/MWEMA na wala si vinginevyo.

Hata pale aliposema kuwa, "Sitakinywea tena kikombe hiki....." elewa alikuwa anaisemea adhabu ile ya amani yetu iliyokuwa ikimkabili saa chache kabla ya kwenda msalabani na kuwa hangepitia mateso yale tena katika mwili. Ila ni sisi tunaoendelea kumpa mateso rohoni pale tunapong'ang'ania mambo ya mwili badala ya kuyatafuta ya rohoni na kutafuta kufanana naye.

Sitasema sana, na yawezekana kuwa sijakujibu kama ulivyotaka. Najua na nasisitiza kuwa kila mtu ana RM kwa hiyo na atende kama aonavyo vyema nafsini mwake na tena WAONGOZWAO NA RM HAO NDIO WALIO WA KRISTO. RM akikuongoza kwenye alcohol mimi sina tatizo sbb kila mmoja anatembea na Mungu kwa namna tofauti na mwingine.

Naitwa Gladys.

[Seleli Edwin]

John Rwezaura,

Nasoma sana inputs zako, I CONFIRM TENA kama nilivyosema siku ya kwanza kabisa, ukaja speed ukidhani, haya yote unayosema sasa, sikuwahi kuyasoma ktk goggle..ni ivi..u have serious assignment kukataa kilichotokea Harusi ya Kana....niliposoma ulichoseme kua ni majibu, kwa kweli umefungua rooms nyingi za maswali tena. Na kisha kumbuka hii ni debate, Mimi na Patrick, tumekuuliza maswali systematically na kuset record ya argument zetu, unachotakiwa ni kuziprove otherwise...

Niseme ivi tena, no one anataka kunywa pombe wala kulewa hapa, kwanza kama mimi hapa, kabla hata ya KUOKOKA, sikuwahi kufeel drinks izo  ILA NI UKWELI PIA, tokana na tulivyolelewa ktk imani zetu BAADA YA KUOKOKA, tumekuwa wakali mno na kufytuka kukemea mambo wakati walaaa ktk maaandiko, ni ngumu kupata A-Z statement

Nilidokekeza toka mwanzo kuhusu Pombe ktk Bible..utapata one side...pombe kunywa au kulewa a big NO na utapata other side..kunywa/kulewa a big Yes....sasa una drawa vipi conclusion with alfa and omega finality..ndicho we need to be outside of our mapokea.mazoea and kukemea-kemea baseless and ukali-ukali wa Kiinjlist cha bila Word Base/ balanced knowledge  and ku-face the reality, call it fact or truth

Tunaweza kukubaliana ivi-na nilishadokeza kua..yako mambo kadhaa ktk Bible na hata leo..kwa hekima tu ya Kichungaji na kusaidia watu wasipitilize, yatawekewa both main laws-Biblical stops and mengine yatawekewa minor laws-man-made prohibitions-mfano mzuri wa hayo ni Paul na makanisa/watoto wake kuwakataza hili na lie but not  from Jesus ila yeye kama Baba wa Kiroho. Na ili la pombe kua kunywa, hata kugusa chupa au kua karibu na bar ni dhambi au ni kuleta pepo ya ulevi benet-benet na wewe..ni man-made minor law-not Biblical yet aims good..this is how we should analyze the conflicting parts in the Bible, tafauti na hekima au ufahamu huo wa kuangalia mambo kwa ivyo, ni ''kufosi kingi'' if you like tu na mtu mwenye uwelewa akisoma, anaona tu hapa ni mechanical making point but never smooth or self Biblical point making.

Press on,

Edwin Seleli

strictlygospe...@googlegroups.com

[Magreth Mkiwa]

kuhusu hoja yako ya Priest

In the Old Testament the high priest alone was permitted to enter into the Holy of Holiest, and that only once a year. Read Hebrews 9:6-8. But when Christ died upon the Cross, the veil that kept man out was rent from the top to the bottom, and so we read in Hebrews 10:19-22,, "We have boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He hath consecrated for us through the veil, that is to say His flesh; and having an High Priest over the house of God we may draw near with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies are washed with pure water." Now we as priests have perfect liberty to come into the very presence of God. By Him, as it says in Heb. 13:15, we may come to offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His Name

strictlygospe...@googlegroups.com

[Seleli Edwin]

Tuse,

ha ha ha ha..nimecheka kweli mpaka basi swali lako....''KAMA MAMA YAKO ALIPOBEBA MIMBA YA WEWE NA ALIKUWA ANAKUNYWA INAKUWAJE

Kisha nimecheka kweli ukajimaliza/jijibu mwenywe safi sana ivi....''HAPO.TUMWACHIE MUNGU''' ....

Yaani kwa kweli Tumwachie maana tukichunguza sana uko..tulizaliwaje, ilikuaje, walikuaje, wapi.....nk.... aisee tutafika mbali, yatosha tulizaliwa kisha yatosha sana tukajavutwa na Mungu kumjua Yesu basi, Asante,nimependa observations/thinking yako.

Na kisha hii boldness ni sawa tu hata kama ni ukakasi but haindoi ukweli huo ktk Neno na RM hakuona haya irekodiwe iyo, otherwise angei-delete.... umesema ivi....MOREOVER ALITENGENEZA POMBE PALE KANA JUST FOR HIS GLORY.

Press on,

Edwin Seleli

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:54 PM, anna Msongela <kiri...@yahoo.com> wrote:

strictlygospe...@googlegroups.com

[Magreth Mkiwa]

kila neno ukilichimba kisiki chake kipo. naona tutafikia kuprint kitabu sasa juu ya hoja hizi zinazidi kupanua somo.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a3542/alcohol-during-pregnancy

strictlygospe...@googlegroups.com

[Seleli Edwin]

Gladys,

Yes nadhani kwa kiasi naelewa-elewa kidogo  abc za Kusoma Neno namely.....nani kasema, audience, culture, prevailing situation wakati huo au in summary... observation, interpretation  and application if you like

Ila swali langu  unafafanua vipi andiko la Harusi ya Kana Yohana.2:1-11..Umesema unajibu kwa ufunuo na ukasema..''Kitendo chake cha kugeuza MAJI kuwa DIVAI ni ishara yake ya kiungu na uwezo wa kugeuza KITU KIBAYA/MTU MBAYA KUWA CHEMA/MWEMA na wala si vinginevyo''

Kama Wanafunzi wako wataelewa UFUNDISHAJI WAKO HUU KWA HILO LA Arusi ya Kana kwa ufunuo huo na wakasema Aiiiiiimen imara kabisa bila kiu ya kutaka kujua  zaidi, basi umefaulu seminar iyo....ila utapata shinda sana ukiwa na kondoo kama mimi ktk seminar iyo maana kabla ya mafunuo hata kama ni makubwa vipi, nitadai kwanza maandiko yanasemaje plainly, clearly, easily, simply kuyaelewa kwanza by God given to all humans the common senses, normal understandings, na kama hapo hatuelewi then we move  to another level namely Ufunuo yet Ufunuo huo bado utakua pulled back to submit kwa Neno kama ilivyoandikwa...u see now...tunarudia kule kule..kua Kama ilivyoandikwa, Ni YESU alitengeneza.....topozee kwa Kiswahil ni neno lenye upako-upako vile yaani divai but English-stronger Language than Kiswahili in many aspects..mambo ni hadahrani-ndio yaitwa ndio na hapana, ni black and bluu hapana thus uko divai ni Wine-a.k.a yenye au pombe!

Au may be tuwalaumu Waingereza waliotafsiri kutuambia  ni Wine, hawakua rohoni? well, je na wale wa lugha yao wenyewe ya asili ya  au wakati wa Yesu anafanya iyo kitu mbona wanetumia pombe-word? si unaona kazi iyo?

You see guys..Neno la Mungu ni la Mungu tu hata kama kwa kiroho chetu cha leo, tunasmell-smell-pepo pepo vile!

Logically, nikwambie why Gladys umeopt kusaka Ufunuo as the best way to teach hili andkiko? Jibu ni..''you are fighting the truth!!!!!!! and guess what? the truth will fight you back badly and hotly and win you down! you don't wanna accept it as simply as it u know.....

We don't need to fight for the Lord if He has not fought for Himself neither commissioned us to battle hard war for Him. He is smart and all power and wisdom, He can stand on Himself therefore relaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and tell your audience wakikubana kua yes, alitengeneza Wine na watu wakaipiga tu kama kawaida huku Mkuu wa meza akaiipa tiki kua ilikua bora sana bila shaka wala hawakuimwaga chini na kuikemea mapepo pombe kama  kweli hua yapo kweli na si misisimuko yetu  ya Kipendwa ile ya kumfunga ''jamaa'' na ''wadogo wake'' na kumswaga kuzimu kabla ya time yake........scripturally, no base or back up kabisa ya makemeo hayo/yetu baadhi.

Press on,

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/5 Magreth Mkiwa <mkiwam...@yahoo.co.uk>

[John Rwezaura]

Edwin Seleli

Kwanza nashukuru kwamba hunywi! Sijui kwa nini hunywi? Mnashauri nitumie maandiko, ili ni jambo dogo. Lakini kusingizia maandiko ni balaa jingine ninaloliona katika uandishi wenu! Kila andiko nitakalotumia kutetea hoja, litategemea kiongozi wako alikutafsiria vipi. Maana siku hizi tuna waalimu wengi.

Hii hoja pombe na kanisa, ukikwepa logic na concept, umepotea, hata ukitumia maandiko. Kumbuka, "Andiko huua, bali Roho huuisha" 2 Corinthians 3:6 KJV "...not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Wapendwa wangu, mabishano ya kutetea pombe hajaanzia kwetu, ni ya vizazi na vizazi. Labda sisi tukifanikiwa kuweka msingi mzuri na wenye ufahamu, twaweza kukinusuru kizazi kijacho, ili kiondokane na pombe kabisa.

Wengi wanaoshikilia msimamo kama wa kwako, huwa hawapendi kujiuliza maswali ya msingi niliyomuuliza Bw. Patrick. Ni kwa sababu kubwa moja, wamisionari kutoka ulaya na baadhi ya maeneo ya bara America, ndio wapiga debe wakubwa katika kutetea pombe. Wao wana sababu nyngine tofauti na ninyi waswahili wa Tanzania, na wengi wao hawajui hata kuzaliwa mara ya pili ni nini!

Rafiki yangu, siongei kutoka katika kona ya uinjilisti, (kipawa changu siyo mwinjilisti), bali naandika kutokea kona ya utafiti wa miaka mingi. Hayo maswali kuhusu ukuhani yatasimama milele mpaka yajibiwe kwa ufasaha. Ili kulinda msimamo wenu, hamtaki hata kuyasoma wala kujaribu kuyajibu, lakini hayo ndio ufunguo hasa wa kujua nafasi ya pombe kwa mwamini. Nitayauliza tena hapa mwishoni.

Tumefanya utafiti Africa, Ulaya katika nchi za Scandinavia, Ujerumami, na baadhi ya nchi za Canada na Marekani, kuhusu nafasi ya pombe kwa kanisa. Tumegundua kwamba watu wengi ni wavivu wa kutafiti, hivyo wakiona jambo limeungwa mkono na wazungu katika vyuo vya Biblia na baadhi ya makanisa makubwa, wanaamini na kumeza kila kitu.

Baada ya utafiti wa muda mrefu, wamisionari kutoka ulaya hatimaye walikubali kwamba endapo Biblia iko sahihi kwamba kuna concept ya ukuhani katika Agano jipya, na kwa vile Mungu alipiga marufuku unywaji divai wakati wa kufanya ibada. Basi, kuhani wa sasa hatakiwi kunywa pombe kabisa. Tatizo moja tu ambalo liliwasumbua, karibu maeneo yote Ulaya ni baridi kali sana. Njia pekee ya kupambana na baridi, ni kunywa alcohol kidogo ili kutunza joto mwili. 

Jamani tuwe wakweli, kwamba Biblia haijazeeka wala maandiko yake hayajachuja bado. "NENO LA MUNGU LI HAI NA LINA NGUVU, ni kali kuliko upanga uwao wote ukatao kuwili..." Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Paul anaposema kwamba ndani ya pombe mna UFISADI, kila anayetetea pombe lazima ajue wazi kwamba anawaasa watu kuuendea UFISADI. Wale wanaosema kwamba kunywa pombe ni dhambi, wako kwenye safe side kuliko wanaotetea. Wanaotetea wanaweza kufa wao wenyewe, au kuwapoteza watoto wachanga, wasioijua kweli.

Patrick na Edwin, 

1. Je, mnakubaliana na mimi kwamba walio katika Kristo Yesu ni Makuhani pamoja na naye?

2. Je, mnakubaliana nami kwamba tumeitwa tutoe dhabihu za roho, na kazi hii ni ya kila siku?

3. Je, ni nini kingetokea endapo kuhani wa Agano la Kwanza angemfanyia inada Bwana na huku ametumia kileo?

Mwisho, ni lazima Warumi 12:1-2 uwe sehemu ya maisha yetu na si masimulizi tu. Romans 12:1-2 KJV "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

JOHN
Sent from my iPad

[Jerome Kaera]

Duh! JAMANI MTU aliyeokoka na kutakaswa na damu ya Yesu kwa nini
kutaka kuyarudia machafu ya kale. Kwa kweli mafundisho hayo mbalimbali
ktk mjadala huu nayapenda kwa sababu yananipa picha ya kwanini watu
wanaomjua Yesu wanakunywa pombe angalau kupasha! Na pia kwa mjadala
huu unaweza kuwasogeza watu karibu na mvinyo kimtazamo. NAKUMBUKA
Mwanzoni mwa wokovu wangu nilipambana nafsini mwangu kuhusu ubaya wa
kileo, niliona wakati ule kuwa haikuwa tatizo kama mimi nikinywa bia
na sikuwa nikifanya kosa au fujo baada ya kunywa. Nakumbuka nikiwa na
mwezi mmoja nilikunywa pombe [ilikuwa siku ya Krismas] na nilianza
kumshuhudia baba yangu mdogo umuhimu wa kuokoka hapa duniani na
sikuona tatizo, ila mbele za Mungu lilikuwa kosa/dhambi hivyo Mungu
alinirekebisha kwa kunikosesha AMANI moyoni wakati huo sikujua
kilichonikosesha amani hadi nilipomueleza rafiki yangu mmoja, huyo
ndugu alihisi kuna mahali nitakuwa nimetenda dhambi. Hivyo alichofanya
alinipa kijitabu kimoja cha Maisha ya Mwongofu mpya, nakumbuka katika
kitabu kile kilieleza kuwa mwamini anaweza kukosa amani kama atakuwa
amefanya mambo yafuatayo [sitayataja] isipokuwa kilieleza mojawapo
kuwa kama umerudia kwenye ulevi. Niliposoma hapo pakagonga moyoni moja
kwa moja. Mwandishi wa kitabu kile simkumbuki ila alishauri kuwa kama
umefanya mojawapo ya hayo umba toba kwa Mungu. Nilifanya hivyo na
Amani moyoni mwangu ikarudi. Tangu siku ile ikawa ndiyo mwisho wangu
kunywa pombe. Roho Mtakatifu alinifundisha kuwa kama umetengwa kwa
ajili ya Bwana na umejaa Roho Mtakatifu na unategemea wakati wowote
kukutana na Bwana hupaswi kunywa kileo chochote kama vile wale
makuhani waliokuwa waningia patakatifu pa patakatifu. Mtu aliyeamua
kuokoka muda wote yupo tayari kukutana na Bwana!!

[Seleli Edwin]

John Rwezaura,

 

 

Kwamba wamisionari wa Ulaya na baadhi ya maeneo ya bara America, wengi wao hawajui hata kuzaliwa mara ya pili ni nini!.....linahitaji ufafanuzi wa uangalifu kweli! A u solidly sure? I HAVE A DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE ABOUT THEM kwa miaka 21 ya Utumishi wangu nao toka Nchi izo toka Nimeokoka kijana mdogo mpaka leo Mkaka mkubwa wa nguvu kuanzia shuleni, Vyoni and Makanisani TZ. Unless tunaongelea aina mbalimbali za Wamissionari  na labda tuna maana tofauti ya nini/nani ni Mmssionari!

 

 

Napata shida sana na tafiti na tamko zako dhidi ya Wazungu-ambao kimsingi, wapo brothers  and sisters strictly Holy Spirit filled and lovers of our Lord Jesus Christ and who mean business. Were your tafiti done among the strictly born again Churches? After all if yes and if found that that they real drink( hopeful not drunk) are they sinning? Will say with maximum finality that they will all be dropped in the hell as you titled your post.. IT IS SIN to drink alcohol?! Are u real very much sure of your statement is as from God or mere man utterances out of sufferings from his own one sided perception?  And another delicate thing is this, do you think that you and with your fellow Watafiti would come up leo na VERY SPECIAL AND SPECTACULAR HIDDEN TRUTH/FACT ABOUT THIS SUBJECT WHICH as smart and  advanced  Wazungu are, failed all these decades past to see through? I am afraid you will have to reverse the data collection duty for the restart of the new research.

 

 

In this respect kua..’’Tatizo moja tu ambalo liliwasumbua, karibu maeneo yote Ulaya ni baridi kali sana. Njia pekee ya kupambana na baridi, ni kunywa alcohol kidogo ili kutunza joto mwili, ….I would make you see this way, Nyumbani kwetu Unyamwezini na Uhayani-Rushasha Kiziba kwa Umwami Rutanjuka, kuna joto kulinganisha na baridi ya Ulaya yet kuna local wine za karne,  ni part ya chakula…joto or baridi not an issue indeed, tutafute hoja nyingine la sivyo kwetu kwa Mama-kwenye joto, ‘’olubisi’’ wine, isingekua na makao yake katikati ya Wanadamu wale wajomba zangu abalangila na abatwale, wampulilaa waitu Rwezaura?

 

 

Unajua tunapokua ktk debate na kujaribu kuleta ukweli peupe  badala yake kukuanza kuletwa hisia binafsi badala ya kuleta ‘’cutting across  and self-defending points’, ni dalili tosha kua aidha Mtu huyu ameshindwa kabisa kusimamisha hoja yake mbele ya hoja nyingine za nguvu sana au basi tu ni yake yale nayoyaitaga mie  mambo ya kipendwa yasikuaga na cemented ground ya sijui hekima, woga-woga, kuogopa-ogopa kua huru na kuongea/share kwa hakika unalojua, siju upole gani ule wa kukimbia na kusema, namwachia Bwana siju au kinywa changu kimefungwa  au ku-spiritualize na kusema kinywa kimezuiwa na BWANA kunena nk kumbe ukweli uliopo ni mwingie kabisaa namely ameshindwa kujibu au basi hataki tu kukiri hajui au hataki kukubari kua amejifunza jambo jipya na ku-appreciate/kubariki-sort of pride fulani ivi kukaushia mambo.

 

 

Hakuna anayetetea pombe hapa, usitwist mambo John, tuna face the truth ktk Yoh.2:1-11 na kuangalia tukiwa ktk kufundisha hapo, tutasema nini mbele ya Wanafunzi machachari, ivyo tu basiiii , hii mambo yako ya kusema tunatetea pombe na nini sijui,  weka pending kwanza , wewe lete hoja against challenges tunazotoa, hakuna haja ya kuwafanya wenzio no kiroho, hili halisadii kwa kua kiroho hakiondolewi na kuface ukweli na kusema Ndio ni Ndio na hapana, hapana. Hatuwezi jenga Watu kiroho au watoto wachanga kwa UWONGO wa kuingiza by-laws zetu ktk main-Laws za Mungu yaani Neno lake kama lilivyo.  Mungu kuacha Bible iwe wazi kwa kila Mtu kwa hakika ni smart na humfikii kwa kujali na kua concerned na Watoto wachanga ambao hata ivyo anawazaa Yeye huyo huyu mwenyewe Mungu Baba aliyetoa Neno na kurusu mambo hadharani yaandikwe likiwemo la Arusi ya Kana kwa alichokifanya Mwanae Mwenyewe kabisa.

 

 

Kuna Maswali unasema ya Msingi ambayo mimi na Patrick, hatuyasoma wala kuyajibu, mh! kweli? well, nitayapitia !

 

 

Press on

2013/12/6 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>

John Rwezaura

 

 

Naona umebarikiwa kua sinywi na hata kuniuliza kwa nini sinywi! Wakati mwingine, unaweza katazwa kitu kwa uwongo na vitisho tu na ikakuingia kweli kwa ujinga wa kutojua jambo na mpaka ikawa sehemu ya maisha yako lakini kumbe ukweli, icho walichoniambia/fundisha ni uwongo tu kama uwongo mwingine. Nadhani unakumbuka wakati tunaokoka miaka iyo, hata kupita karibu na bar au kunywa supu ya kongoro hapo au kuhamisha creti la bia likae pembeni ukae vema hapo labda mko harusini ya ndugu hawajaokoka/ kushika chupa ya pombe, kukari nywele, kunyoa kipara, kuvaa laizoni, kupiga sopu-sopu saluni za kiume,  kwenda beach kulax,  kuogelea nk, ilikua  almost au ni dhambi na ungeweza kukutana na vikao vikali vya Uongozi wa kanisa kama si wewe mwenyewe kujisikia umeanguka and then kutafuat siku 2 za kufunga kavu, kujitakasa kwa kufanya dhambi kubwa sana izo

 

Kwa iyo, kwakua sikuwahi kunywa kabla na baada ya kuokoka, haimaanisha moja kwa moja kua nilielewa sana kweli bali pia kazi ya uwongo niliojazwa, vitisho, makemeo, kutiwa hofu,ujinga wa kutofahamu mambo ktk upana wake.

 

Nadhani pia usisingizie kila kitu Viongozi wa Dini  zetu ndio walitutafsiri vibaya walipoona live ktk Neno kua hakuna clear-cut statement kuzuia pombe kunywa-(ya kuzuia Kulewa yapo mengi).Bila hata viongozi wa dini wala kwenda Bible College hata bila kusumbuka na tafiti-maana si yote  ktk Neno ni ya Tafiti hata kidogo, nikisoma Kiswahili changu tu cha Tz na kisha Ka-Kiingereza kangu niliko nako kwa kujaaliwa na Baba andiko hili..Yoh.2:1-11, naelewa bila ufunuo wala hekima kubwa na ndogo kua ‘’Water was changed into Wine, simple! Why Utafiti or Ufunuo there? what for? Utafiti au Ufunuo uje ktk Maneno kama ‘’ninyi msiponila  na kuninywa  mimi’’, ‘’Kabla Ibrahim kuwepo, Mimi nipo’, ‘’Mimi Niko ambaye Niko’’, ‘Nami nawaambia jifanyieni Urafiki kwa Mali ya udhalimu ili’’, ‘’ukipigwa shavu la kulia, geuza na la kushoto, ‘’Amini Amini nawaambia, wapo waliosimam hapa ambao hawataonja mauti mpaka waone Ufalme’’,  nk but hili la Wine drinking wedding! mmh! no chance for such dimensions.

 

 

Tukubali tu kweli iyo iliyotokea Kana pale maana kuikataa na mtapata tabu kweli  na ni hatari kusema with  finality ‘kua kunywa pombe ni dhambi wakati MWENYEWE anayejua Yote, mwenye Utakatifu Wote na mwenye seriousness YOTE alitengeneza iyo unayoiita wewe husiye na viwango vyake kua ni dhambi, Are  u accusing Jesus, making Him a sinner while the Bible tells of Him as sinless one? How can someone make a sin or make people sin(pombe or drinking it as u claim) and remain holy? Think about it for a second! Ndio madhara ya line yako of thinking and argumentation na sijui wanaokusapati wanaona danger iyo ya kum-degrade Bwana!!!!!!!!!!! A serious play/joke  indeed and  danger zone hanging around ya kukufuru almost!!!!!!!!

 

 

Yes andiko huua bali Roho huuisha "- 2Wakor. 3:6,  lakini Kumbuka pia balance hii in the same Bible..’’ Yesu akajibu, akawaambia, Mwapotea, kwa kuwa hamyajui maandiko wala uweza wa Mungu Mathayo.22:29-  na ‘’Mwayachunguza maandiko, kwa sababu mnadhani kwamba ninyi mna uzima wa milele ndani yake; na hayo ndiyo yanayonishuhudia-Yoh.5:39..the emphasis… yangu ni kipande hiki ‘na hayo ndiyo yanayonishuhudia’’== yanamshuhudia on what?...kua Yeye ndiye hakika kwa Msg zake and Kazi zote alizowahi tenda including MUUJIZA WAKE KWANZA KABISA DUNIANI WA KUBADILISHA MAJI INTO WINE(POMBE). Can you imagine that? Kama vile mnataka bora sura iyo tungeichana itoweke humu ktk Biblia na wala kusiwepo makao yake milele! Lakini Amini Amini nawaambia, sisi tutatoweka na mbingu na Nchi lakini si Maneno na Matendo yake Bwana… ‘Mbingu na nchi zitapita, lakini maneno yangu hayatapita kamwe- Luka.21:33

 

Ni vema na inalipa sana kama tuna huruma kweli na mzigo na kizazi chetu, tufanikiwe kuweka msingi mzuri na wenye ufahamu, tukinusuru si tu na pombe bali hatari zote za dhambi na dhambi zenyewe

 

 

Nitamalizia tena  maoni/maitikio yangu kwa mengine  yako kwa jibu lako

 

Press on,

 

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/5 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>

[Seleli Edwin]

John Rwezaura

 

 

Naona umebarikiwa kua sinywi na hata kuniuliza kwa nini sinywi! Wakati mwingine, unaweza katazwa kitu kwa uwongo na vitisho tu na ikakuingia kweli kwa ujinga wa kutojua jambo na mpaka ikawa sehemu ya maisha yako lakini kumbe ukweli, icho walichoniambia/fundisha ni uwongo tu kama uwongo mwingine. Nadhani unakumbuka wakati tunaokoka miaka iyo, hata kupita karibu na bar au kunywa supu ya kongoro hapo au kuhamisha creti la bia likae pembeni ukae vema hapo labda mko harusini ya ndugu hawajaokoka/ kushika chupa ya pombe, kukari nywele, kunyoa kipara, kuvaa laizoni, kupiga sopu-sopu saluni za kiume,  kwenda beach kulax,  kuogelea nk, ilikua  almost au ni dhambi na ungeweza kukutana na vikao vikali vya Uongozi wa kanisa kama si wewe mwenyewe kujisikia umeanguka and then kutafuat siku 2 za kufunga kavu, kujitakasa kwa kufanya dhambi kubwa sana izo

 

Kwa iyo, kwakua sikuwahi kunywa kabla na baada ya kuokoka, haimaanisha moja kwa moja kua nilielewa sana kweli bali pia kazi ya uwongo niliojazwa, vitisho, makemeo, kutiwa hofu,ujinga wa kutofahamu mambo ktk upana wake.

 

Nadhani pia usisingizie kila kitu Viongozi wa Dini  zetu ndio walitutafsiri vibaya walipoona live ktk Neno kua hakuna clear-cut statement kuzuia pombe kunywa-(ya kuzuia Kulewa yapo mengi).Bila hata viongozi wa dini wala kwenda Bible College hata bila kusumbuka na tafiti-maana si yote  ktk Neno ni ya Tafiti hata kidogo, nikisoma Kiswahili changu tu cha Tz na kisha Ka-Kiingereza kangu niliko nako kwa kujaaliwa na Baba andiko hili..Yoh.2:1-11, naelewa bila ufunuo wala hekima kubwa na ndogo kua ‘’Water was changed into Wine, simple! Why Utafiti or Ufunuo there? what for? Utafiti au Ufunuo uje ktk Maneno kama ‘’ninyi msiponila  na kuninywa  mimi’’, ‘’Kabla Ibrahim kuwepo, Mimi nipo’, ‘’Mimi Niko ambaye Niko’’, ‘Nami nawaambia jifanyieni Urafiki kwa Mali ya udhalimu ili’’, ‘’ukipigwa shavu la kulia, geuza na la kushoto, ‘’Amini Amini nawaambia, wapo waliosimam hapa ambao hawataonja mauti mpaka waone Ufalme’’,  nk but hili la Wine drinking wedding! mmh! no chance for such dimensions.

 

 

Tukubali tu kweli iyo iliyotokea Kana pale maana kuikataa na mtapata tabu kweli  na ni hatari kusema with  finality ‘kua kunywa pombe ni dhambi wakati MWENYEWE anayejua Yote, mwenye Utakatifu Wote na mwenye seriousness YOTE alitengeneza iyo unayoiita wewe husiye na viwango vyake kua ni dhambi, Are  u accusing Jesus, making Him a sinner while the Bible tells of Him as sinless one? How can someone make a sin or make people sin(pombe or drinking it as u claim) and remain holy? Think about it for a second! Ndio madhara ya line yako of thinking and argumentation na sijui wanaokusapati wanaona danger iyo ya kum-degrade Bwana!!!!!!!!!!! A serious play/joke  indeed and  danger zone hanging around ya kukufuru almost!!!!!!!!

 

 

Yes andiko huua bali Roho huuisha "- 2Wakor. 3:6,  lakini Kumbuka pia balance hii in the same Bible..’’ Yesu akajibu, akawaambia, Mwapotea, kwa kuwa hamyajui maandiko wala uweza wa Mungu Mathayo.22:29-  na ‘’Mwayachunguza maandiko, kwa sababu mnadhani kwamba ninyi mna uzima wa milele ndani yake; na hayo ndiyo yanayonishuhudia-Yoh.5:39..the emphasis… yangu ni kipande hiki ‘na hayo ndiyo yanayonishuhudia’’== yanamshuhudia on what?...kua Yeye ndiye hakika kwa Msg zake and Kazi zote alizowahi tenda including MUUJIZA WAKE KWANZA KABISA DUNIANI WA KUBADILISHA MAJI INTO WINE(POMBE). Can you imagine that? Kama vile mnataka bora sura iyo tungeichana itoweke humu ktk Biblia na wala kusiwepo makao yake milele! Lakini Amini Amini nawaambia, sisi tutatoweka na mbingu na Nchi lakini si Maneno na Matendo yake Bwana… ‘Mbingu na nchi zitapita, lakini maneno yangu hayatapita kamwe- Luka.21:33

 

Ni vema na inalipa sana kama tuna huruma kweli na mzigo na kizazi chetu, tufanikiwe kuweka msingi mzuri na wenye ufahamu, tukinusuru si tu na pombe bali hatari zote za dhambi na dhambi zenyewe

 

 

Nitamalizia tena  maoni/maitikio yangu kwa mengine  yako kwa jibu lako

 

Press on,

 

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/5 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>

Edwin Seleli

[Patrick Kamera]

Brother John,

Sijui nisemeje, sijui nianzie wapi ila nimesoma ulichoandika na kushangazwa kidogo na approach uliyotumia. As always feel free to set the record straight, at the end we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. Yangu ni haya machache (well, relatively speaking...)

If we are to have a meaningful discussion the least we can expect from each other is honesty in our presentations. So when you claim that you asked me specific questions and I "didn't show my side", while you know very well I not only "showed my side" but I also went further than that and differentiated the Old Covenant Aaronic Priesthood (which was exclusively reserved for Levites who were Aaron's descendants) from the New Covenant Priesthood of all believers with Jesus Christ as our His Priest in the order of Melchizedec, and don't forget, Jesus is from the tribe of Judah not Levi. Hebrews 7:12 clearly says that the Change in the Priesthood necessitates a change in the Law, I could go on and on but suffice it to say I'm surprised how could you ignore all of that (unless you didn't bother to read my responses) just so you can claim Leviticus 10:8-11 applies to the New Covenant Priesthood of all believers. I repeatedly cautioned against mixing the Covenants.

You've brushed aside the water to wine miracle at the wedding in Cana without any valid reasons and you've not only brushed aside Paul's advice to Timothy but you have also ignored the words of Jesus himself saying he came eating and drinking and they called him a glutton, a winebibber and a drunkard? (Matthew 11:19, Luke 7:34) Question: Was Jesus telling the truth or not? 

Kama tukidai alikuwa anakunywa juisi fresh ya zabibu wakati Yeye mwenyewe anadai wanamwita mnywa divai na mlevi, je tutakuwa tunatetea nini hasa? Kama hata mkuu wa meza pale Kana aliisifia ile divai kuwa ni nzuri zaidi kupita ile nyingine iliyokwisha, halafu sisi tunadai hapana iliuwa juisi tu ya zabibu wakati kila Myahudi anajua harusini kunanyweka pombe ya divai iliyoandaliwa na kuchachishwa kwa takriban siku 40 ili kufikia ubora unaoukubalika na wanywaji.Na je Mariamu mama yake hakujua kuwa kunywa divai ni dhambi? Kama alijua mbona alimwambia mwanae Yesu kuwa wameishiwa divai na Bwana Yesu akakubali kufanya muujiza huo? Tunatetea nini hasa ikiwa hata Mwana wa Mungu mwenyewe tunataka kupingana naye na kubatilisha alchofanya na alichosema ili tu kiendane na mapokeo tuliyoyashika? Isitoshe tunamtumia Musa katika hoja zetu, dah! Yaani tutakuwa na tofauti gani na wale Mafarisayo wa zamani waliokuwa wanajaribu kutumia maneno ya Musa kumtega na kumpinga Yesu kila kona. Tuangalie tusitetee mapokeo yetu ya kidini tukajikuta tunaishia kum-disqualify Yeye tumwitaye Bwana na Mwokozi wetu.    

Some like to claim that what Jesus made at the wedding in Cana was "new wine" which is not fermented and so it isn't intoxicating but a closer look at Scripture doesn't support that notion. What is new wine? Let's see what the Scriptures record for us:

Remember on the day of Pentecost as the disciples were filled with the Spirit and they were speaking in tongues, some of the people said: 

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. - Acts 2:13 KJV  

And who else but Peter responded this way:

15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: - Acts 2:15-16 NKJV

Right there, out goes the notion that new wine isn't fermented yet, so please let's think this through before we attempt to excuse Jesus from making alcohol at the wedding at Cana and the Holy Spirit recording it in Scripture for us today.

As for Ephesians 5:18 let me say this:

Is there dissipation in wine? Absolutely NOT! To claim otherwise is to walk a very dangerous slippery slope - let's not forget that Jesus made wine at Cana, and He also drank wine. Did He make something that is full of debauchery? Is He also a "FISADI"? Careful there brother John...You don't want to be calling the sinless Son of God and Savior of the World a FISADI now, do you? So even the argument that the verse is against the debauchery in wine is based on a faulty premise from the onset and so if follows that anything flowing from such a faulty premise will also be faulty. Rest assured, that verse contrasts the results of being drunk with wine versus being filled with the Holy Spirit. That little word "but" or "instead" is pivotal, it is very important there. Not only that but that Scripture is in line with the other Scriptures outlining how ministers and leaders should conduct themselves according to Titus 2:3, Titus 1:7  

Let's do a quick study of Ephesians 5:18  from a couple of versions, shall we?

18 Don’t get drunk on wine, which produces depravity. Instead, be filled with the Spirit in the following ways: - Ephesians 5:18 CEB. What produces depravity? Being drunk on wine is what produces depravity, not the wine. 

18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but ever be filled and stimulated with the [Holy] Spirit. - Ephesians 5:18 AMP What is debauchery? The act of being drunk (with wine or any alcohol or mind altering substance for that matter)

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; - Ephesians 5:18 KJV Wherein is the excess? It is in, again, "being drunk" with wine or any other type of alcohol 

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, - Ephesians 5:18 NIV What leads to debauchery? Again, "getting drunk" on wine or any other substance leads to debauchery. 

So it is abundantly clear that debauchery is not IN the Wine but in the one who gets drunk. 

You see, wine by itself is just that - WINE, it is not full of debauchery it is just simply wine, a ferment liquid made from grapes. Drunkenness, debauchery, excesses are all works of the flesh (revisiting Galatians 5:19-21 might be in order) Now when one imbibes too much, they become drunk and they (not the wine) indulge in all sorts of excesses. See the difference? Getting drunk isn't limited to wine only but to all other mind altering substances, wine being the common one in their day, is mentioned as one thing that could lead to one becoming drunk. 

Just as cars can be of service to us, incorrect operation of a vehicle  such as reckless driving can cause death and harm, now it would be absurd to call the car evil, foolish or careless when actually it is the driver who is deserving of such adjectives. 

Blessings beloved,

Tuendelee kujifunza,

Patrick. 

2013/12/3 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>

[Seleli Edwin]

John Rwezaura,

 

 

Maswali ya msingi  unayosema ulimuuliza  Patrick. K na akayakacha,  na kwamba na mie sitaki kuyasoma au kuyajibu, sidhani kama ni kweli, Mimi niliyasoma  ila nikashangaa why umeyauliza!!!!!!! Will tell you why in  just a moment, hold on!

 

 

Maswali yako  ni haya:

 

 

1. Je, mnakubaliana na mimi kwamba walio katika Kristo Yesu ni Makuhani pamoja na naye?

2. Je, mnakubaliana nami kwamba tumeitwa tutoe dhabihu za roho, na kazi hii ni ya kila siku?

3. Je, ni nini kingetokea endapo kuhani wa Agano la Kwanza angemfanyia inada Bwana na huku ametumia kileo?

 

Kwanini nilishanga umeyauliza tena? Ni kwakua nilidhani umekua makini kusoma mchango wa Patrick uliokua na baadhi ya point izi ambazo mimi nili-judge kua zimejibu kila kitu ulichouliza na Zaidi!...kuna uwezekano labda ulisoma haraka ukiwahi kujibu au kusaka material kushare hapa, nimeona vema, nizinukuu hapa tena, kama hazijibu, sema sasa!

 

·        Lord Jesus is our High Priest today under the New Covenant and we are not under the Levitical Aaronic Priesthood of the Old Covenant.

 

·        In the Old Covenant all the High Priests and the Priests came from the family of Aaron of the tribe of Levi, and were not allowed to drink wine or any alcohol. In the New Covenant our High Priest Jesus Christ comes from the tribe of Judah and He not only drank wine but also made wine, a huge no-no for a Priest according to the Law. But in doing so Jesus did not break the Law of Moses, why? Because He was not of the Aaronic Levitical Priesthood order, see what I'm getting at? So for you to quote from Leviticus 10:8-11 and claim that applies to the New Covenant priesthood of all believers you have effectively disqualified Jesus, the very High Priest of the New Covenant Himself. You are on a slippery slope right there brother John, how can you miss the subject, the person to whom those instructions were given. Check out verse 8 Then the Lord said to Aaron, 9 “You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the tent of meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, 10 so that you can distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean, 11 and so you can teach the Israelites all the decrees the Lord has given them through Moses.” -  Leviticus 10:8-11 NIV (Emphasis added)

 

·        Aaron was the High Priest and these instructions were specifically and exclusively for him and his descendants who would be priests of the Old Covenant for generations to come. It didn't apply to the other families of Levi nor did it apply to the other tribes. And so again, I repeat...Jesus the High Priest of the New Covenant is from the tribe of Judah not Levi. He is the Son of David not a descendant of Aaron. 

 

·        The verse in Hebrews 7 that I quoted in my previous replies, sheds some light on why Jesus Our High Priest who is also the Messenger of the New Covenant, ratified by His own Blood, acted differently from the Levitical Priesthood of His day, the Scriptures plainly state that:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. - Hebrews 7:12 NIV….I recommend reading from verse 11 all the way to verse 16 

 

 

 

 

 

·        The Aaronic Priestly order which offered animal sacrifices daily has ceased, as we all know, God isn't accepting any animal sacrifices today so that priestly order has passed. The Priesthood has changed from being limited to the tribe of Levi and exclusively to Aaron's sons to the priesthood of all believers as you have clearly pointed out.

 

 

All  above is to plate this Patrick strong line of thinking that….’’Now as the Scripture states: A change in the Priesthood necessitates a change in the law hence I submit that, that includes the law governing priestly conduct as well.

 

 

Udhani ulisoma hayo kwa jicho la kutaka kuelewa kama ulivyosisitiza wewe na si kubishana tu bali kujifunza? Ingawa mabishano ya hoja or call it mahojiana ya hoja  kwa nia safi ya kutaka kweli ijulikane au Watu wapate ufahamu/maarifa ya  mambo ya ukweli na sit u mawazo yaki man-made tuuu au  ulongo,  ni Biblica kabisa-( Mdo.17:1-4, kisha 5-34 au Mdo.18:24-28, nk. Na udhani kwa dhati inpust izo za Patrick kweli hazi-address directly or perfectly indirectly concerns zako ktk maswali yako 3? Let me know plz.

 

Press on.

[John Rwezaura]

Seleli, nilisoma hayo majibu unayosema, hasa jibu hili hapa,

Lord Jesus is our High Priest today under the New Covenant and we are not under the Levitical Aaronic Priesthood of the Old Covenant.

Hili siyo jibu kwa kuwa logically, limekubali ukuhani wa Yesu tu. Pili, limekuwa na defense mechanism ambayo hailezi chochote.  

Sent from my iPad

[John Rwezaura]

Patrick, unazunguka sana, wakati jibu linalohitajika ni fupi sana. Ukienda universities, wanafunzi wanakosea paper zao kwa kitu kidogo, "kujibu swali". Anaandika mambo mengi lakini ukiyaangalia yanatetea point moja tu. Na kama swali lilikuwa na point tano, anaambulia point moja tu.

Nakubali kwamba ulienda beyond, lakini ulitakiwa kujibu maswali na ku-relate majibu na msimamo wako, then unenda beyond or further as you can. Lecturer anaangalia majibu mwanzoni na si ndani ya text au mwishoni. Take care my brother. Unaweza kuyarejea maswali tena maana kila nilipoandika kwenu niliyarudia. Maandiko makavu hayajibu maswali yangu. Wewe ndiyo unatakiwa kujibu, kisha unatoa ushahidi wa maandiko.

HOJA ZOTE ZINAWEZA KUJIBIWA KWA URAHISI ENDAPO TUTAPATA MAJIBU SAHIHI YA MASWALI YA MSINGI, BADALA YA MAELEZO AMBAYO TAFSIRI ZAKE ZINA UTATA.

1. Nini maana mkristo au mtu aliye katika Kristo Yesu? Au mkristo ni nani mbele za Mungu kwa mujibu wa maandiko?

Majibu sahihi maswali hayo, yanasaidia kuto jibu kuhusu nafasi ya pombe kwa mwamini.

JOHN

Sent from my iPad

[iqualiptus malle]

Haleluya!!

Pamoja na mikeka miingi sana toka kwa wapendwa na washirika wa hapa, ninaomba niseme kidogo.

Je umewahi kujiuliza maswali haya?

1. Je sadaka ya kutoa kwa Bwana yaweza kuwa pombe?
2. Kanisa laweza kuanzisha kiwanda ama biashara ya pombe ili kujipatia faida?
3. Wote wanywao pombe ni kwakuwa wanaumwa na wanaitumia kwaajili ya kujitibu ama kuweka afya yao sawa kutokana na magojwa?

Wakati mkitafakari majibu hayo nilete suluhisho langu rahisi;

Kimsingi biblia inasema "imani bila matendo imekufa" na ufalme wa Mungu hauko katika neno bali katika Nguvu.

Sasa basi; mmoja kati ya rafiki na ndugu hapa ambaye anashuhudiwa moyoni kwamba pombe ni njema iwe glasi moja ama zaidi AWE TAYARI TUMFANYIE MAZOEZI YA VITENDO.

Tupatane woote/wengi hapa walio eneo moja, wakutane/tukutane na "huyo main character akiwa na KILAJI" chake, ajihudumie kwa hicho kilaji THEN JINA LA YESU KRISTO LIITWE/tuliite KINYUME NA HUYO ROHO WA POMBE na ndani ya sekunde kama si dakika chache tutapata matokeo.

Kiswahili kinasema "kwanini tuandikie mate wakati wino upo?".

Mbarikiwe!!!

2013/12/8 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>

--

Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
 
Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
 
Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:
strictlygospe...@googlegroups.com

--
Regards,
Malle Iqualiptus

[Patrick Kamera]

Excellent observations and analysis Edwin, I couldn't agree with you more. 

To echo your words, 

"Press on"

your brother Patrick

2013/12/10 Patrick Kamera <pka...@gmail.com>

Mpendwa Iqualiptus,

Sina uhakika na malengo ya maswali yako ila kukujibu kwa ufupi tu ni kwamba katika Agano la Kale, Mungu aliagiza sadaka ya kinywaji ambayo ilikuwa ni pombe:

5 na divai kwa sadaka ya kinywaji, robo ya hini, utaiandaa pamoja na sadaka ya kuteketezwa, au kwa dhabihu ya kuchinjwa, kwa ajili ya kila mwana-kondoo. - Hesabu 15:5 SUV

7 na kwa sadaka ya kinywaji utasongeza sehemu ya tatu ya hini ya divai, kuwa harufu ya kupendeza kwa Bwana. - Hesabu 15:7 SUV

10 Tena utasongeza nusu ya hini ya divai kwa sadaka ya kinywaji, kwa sadaka iliyosongezwa kwa moto, ya harufu ya kupendeza kwa Bwana. - Hesabu 15:10 SUV

Kujibu swali lako la pili inabidi turudi kwenye definition ya Kanisa. Kanisa ni Mwili wa Kristo full stop. Hivyo basi Kanisa la kweli la Kristo ambalo analijenga mwenyewe haliwezi kuanzisha kiwanda cha pombe wala cha soda ila kanisa la mwanadamu, kanisa la kitaasisi na madhehebu yake linaweza kuanzisha vyote tu kama ulivyosema maana lengo ni kupata faida. Sote ni mashahidi wa miradi ya biashara za yale yanayoitwa makanisa leo hii. Kanisa la Kristo lengo lake siyo kujifaidisha kibiashara bali kuueneza ufalme wa Mungu duniani. Kuna tofauti kubwa kati ya fundraising na profit making, one is for a specific purpose the other is a means to make a living.

Jibu la swali lako la tatu ni hapana siyo wote wanywao pombe wanafanya hivyo kwa ajili ya afya zao au kujitibu ni wachache sana, wengi wanakunywa pombe kwa kupenda kwao wenyewe. 

Kwa habari ya hilo suluhisho la unywaji wa pombe, labda nikuulize mpendwa unasimamia andiko lipi kutoa suluhisho hilo? Kama huna andiko la kusimamia bali unayalazimisha Maandiko kama ambavyo umefanya basi suluhisho lako litabakia kuwa ni kitisho kisicho na mashiko kabisa. Isitoshe, miongoni mwetu hapa ukumbini hakuna aliyesema pombe ni njema ila kwenye ile habari ya harusi ya kule Kana pombe aliyotengeneza Bwana Yesu ilisifiwa na mkuu wa meza kuwa ni njema, Kuna vitu ambavyo siyo dhambi lakini pia siyo vyema, yatupasa tujifunze kupambanua baina ya vitu na vitu kwa usahihi.  

Nimejaribu kujibu maswali yako na kutoa maoni yangu kuhusu suluhisho lako, 

Tuendelee kujifunza,

Nduguyo Patrick.

 

2013/12/9 iqualiptus malle <iqua...@gmail.com>

[Patrick Kamera]

Mpendwa Iqualiptus,

Sina uhakika na malengo ya maswali yako ila kukujibu kwa ufupi tu ni kwamba katika Agano la Kale, Mungu aliagiza sadaka ya kinywaji ambayo ilikuwa ni pombe:

5 na divai kwa sadaka ya kinywaji, robo ya hini, utaiandaa pamoja na sadaka ya kuteketezwa, au kwa dhabihu ya kuchinjwa, kwa ajili ya kila mwana-kondoo. - Hesabu 15:5 SUV

7 na kwa sadaka ya kinywaji utasongeza sehemu ya tatu ya hini ya divai, kuwa harufu ya kupendeza kwa Bwana. - Hesabu 15:7 SUV

10 Tena utasongeza nusu ya hini ya divai kwa sadaka ya kinywaji, kwa sadaka iliyosongezwa kwa moto, ya harufu ya kupendeza kwa Bwana. - Hesabu 15:10 SUV

Kujibu swali lako la pili inabidi turudi kwenye definition ya Kanisa. Kanisa ni Mwili wa Kristo full stop. Hivyo basi Kanisa la kweli la Kristo ambalo analijenga mwenyewe haliwezi kuanzisha kiwanda cha pombe wala cha soda ila kanisa la mwanadamu, kanisa la kitaasisi na madhehebu yake linaweza kuanzisha vyote tu kama ulivyosema maana lengo ni kupata faida. Sote ni mashahidi wa miradi ya biashara za yale yanayoitwa makanisa leo hii. Kanisa la Kristo lengo lake siyo kujifaidisha kibiashara bali kuueneza ufalme wa Mungu duniani. Kuna tofauti kubwa kati ya fundraising na profit making, one is for a specific purpose the other is a means to make a living.

Jibu la swali lako la tatu ni hapana siyo wote wanywao pombe wanafanya hivyo kwa ajili ya afya zao au kujitibu ni wachache sana, wengi wanakunywa pombe kwa kupenda kwao wenyewe. 

Kwa habari ya hilo suluhisho la unywaji wa pombe, labda nikuulize mpendwa unasimamia andiko lipi kutoa suluhisho hilo? Kama huna andiko la kusimamia bali unayalazimisha Maandiko kama ambavyo umefanya basi suluhisho lako litabakia kuwa ni kitisho kisicho na mashiko kabisa. Isitoshe, miongoni mwetu hapa ukumbini hakuna aliyesema pombe ni njema ila kwenye ile habari ya harusi ya kule Kana pombe aliyotengeneza Bwana Yesu ilisifiwa na mkuu wa meza kuwa ni njema, Kuna vitu ambavyo siyo dhambi lakini pia siyo vyema, yatupasa tujifunze kupambanua baina ya vitu na vitu kwa usahihi.  

Nimejaribu kujibu maswali yako na kutoa maoni yangu kuhusu suluhisho lako, 

Tuendelee kujifunza,

Nduguyo Patrick.

 

2013/12/9 iqualiptus malle <iqua...@gmail.com>

Haleluya!!

[Patrick Kamera]

Brother John,

Nilichotaka kufanya siyo kutoa majibu ya mkato halafu nisieleweke ndio maana nimejaribu kuweka msingi wa Kimaandiko kwanza, samahani kama utachukulia hilo kuwa ni kuzunguka kukujibu. 

Kwa habari ya ukuhani wetu leo hii nimesema mara zaidi ya moja kuwa katika Agano Jipya sisi tuliookolewa, sisi tuliomwamini na kumkiri Bwana Yesu kama Bwana na mwokozi wetu tunafanyika kuwa ukuhani wa kifalme na Yeye mwenyewe Bwana Yesu akiwa Kuhani Mkuu wetu. Nimetoa na Maandiko toka Waebrania 7 kuthibitisha ubora na ukuu wa Ukuhani wa Agano Jipya chini ya Kuhani Mkuu Yesu Kristo kuliko ule wa Agano la Kale chini ya ukuhani wa Kilawi wa Haruni na uzao wake, je una pingamizi lolote na hoja hii niliyoitoa au je unaafikiana nayo? 

Tatizo ni kuung'ang'ania Ukuhani wa KIlawi na baadhi ya taratibu zake leo hii ili tu kuhalalisha kutumia Walawi 10:8-11 inayokaza makuhani kunywa divai, ila kumbuka tukifanya hivyo itabidi um-disqualify Bwana Yesu Kuhani wetu mkuu wa Agano Jipya mwenyewe, kwani Yeye alitengeneza na kunywa divai, sijui hoja yangu imeeleweka? Tukubali tukatae Bwana Yesu alitengeneza na kunywa divai, nimeweka Maandiko kadhaa kuthibitisha hilo, je tunapingana na hayo Maandiko? Je tunataka kumuinua Musa juu zaidi ya Bwana Yesu? Tunataka kuuinua Ukuhani wa Kilawi uliokuwa maalum kwa uzao wa Haruni peke yake kuliko Ukuhani wa Agano Jipya ambao ni wa kila mwamini bila ubaguzi na Kuhani Mkuu akiwa Bwana Yesu mwenyewe akitokea Kabila la Yuda na wala siyo kabila la Lawi? 

Nasema yote hayo ili kusema hivi: Ukuhani umebadilika katika Agano Jipya, hivyo kuutumia Ukuhani wa Agano la Kale katika Agano Jipya lenye Ukuhani wake tofauti (na bora zaidi) ni batili, kwani sheria nayo imebadilika. Tuliangalie tena andiko la Waebrania 7:11-17 SUV:

11 Basi, kama ukamilifu ulikuwapo kwa ukuhani wa Lawi; (maana watu wale waliipata sheria kwa huo); kulikuwa na haja gani tena ya kuhani mwingine ainuke, kwa mfano wa Melkizedeki, wala asihesabiwe kwa mfano wa Haruni? 
12 Maana ukuhani ule ukibadilika, hapana budi sheria nayo ibadilike. 
13 Maana yeye aliyenenwa hayo alikuwa mshirika wa kabila nyingine, ambayo hapana mtu wa kabila hiyo aliyeihudumia madhabahu. 
14 Maana ni dhahiri kwamba Bwana wetu alitoka katika Yuda, kabila ambayo Musa hakunena neno lo lote juu yake katika mambo ya ukuhani. 
15 Tena hayo tusemayo ni dhahiri sana zaidi, ikiwa ametokea kuhani mwingine mithili ya Melkizedeki; 
16 asiyekuwa kuhani kwa sheria ya amri iliyo ya jinsi ya mwili, bali kwa nguvu za uzima usio na ukomo; 
17 maana ameshuhudiwa kwamba, Wewe u kuhani milele Kwa mfano wa Melkizedeki. 

Hapo tunaona tofauti ya Ukuhani wa Lawi na ule wa Bwana Yesu tokea Yuda. Na mstari wa 12 hapo umeeleza vizuri tu kuwa ukuhani sasa umebadilika na hilo limepelekea sheria pia kubadilika. 

Kudai vinginevyo ni kusema hata Bwana Yesu mwenyewe hafai kuwa Kuhani Mkuu na Paulo aliyemshauri Timotheo anywe divai kwa ajili ya afya yake na magonjwa yampatayo mara kwa mara pia naye hafai, kama leo tunadai kunywa kileo ni dhambi basi Paulo tuhitimishe kuwa amemshauri Timotheo atende dhambi, no excuse there maana alichokifanya Paulo ni sawa na kumshauri mtakatifu afanye uasherati mara kwa mara kwa ajili ya afya ya viungo vyake vya uzazi, haiingii akilini kabisa....now which is which? 

Bwana Yesu mwenyewe asingedai kusingiziwa ulevi kama angekuwa hanywi kileo la sivyo tusemeje, alikuwa anaongezea chumvi katika maneno yake? La hasha, tukumbuke uongo ni dhambi na hakuwahi kutenda dhambi.

18 Maana Yohana alikuja, hali wala hanywi, wakasema, Yuna pepo. 
19 Mwana wa Adamu alikuja, akila na kunywa, wakasema, Mlafi huyu, na mlevi, rafiki yao watoza ushuru na wenye dhambi! Na hekima imejulikana kuwa ina haki kwa kazi zake. - Mathayo 11:18-19 SUV

Kama tutayatumia Maandiko kiuhalali itabidi tuhitimishe kuwa ulevi kama ulivyo ulafi ni dhambi ila kunywa kama ilivyo kula siyo dhambi. Paulo alisema mtu asiwahukumu kwa habari ya vyakula na vinywaji...(mstari siukumbuki ulipo)...Bwana Yesu alisema kimwingiacho mtu hakimtii unajisi bali kimtokacho kinywani kwani kinatoka moyoni na huko moyoni ndiko kwenye mawazo mabaya, uuaji, uzinzi, uasherati; wizi, ushuhuda wa uongo, na matukano na hayo ndiyo yanayowatia watu unajisi (Mathayo 15),  

Nadhani umeweza kunielewa vizuri mpaka hapo, Kwa habari ya kuwa Mkristo ni nani? Ni yule aliyeokolewa, yule aliyemwamini na kumkiri Bwana Yesu kama Bwana na Mwokozi wake kulingana na Maandiko (Warumi 10:8-10) 

Wapendwa samahanini kwa huu "mkeka" 

Tuendelee kujifunza,

I am your brother, Patrick 

[Seleli Edwin]

John Rwezaura,

Umesema,  Majibu ya Patrick hasa hili.''Lord Jesus is our High Priest today under the New Covenant and we are not under the Levitical Aaronic Priesthood of the Old Covenant.'' kwamba si jibu kwa kua.. logically, limekubali ukuhani wa Yesu tu. Pili, limekuwa na defense mechanism ambayo hailezi chochote.

Am so surprised kwa kweli kushindwa au may be KUKATAA bila base but
feelings au mazoea yetu za Kipendwa, kudaka iyo!!!!!, mbona naona rahisi sana au?!

Unasema hilo si jibu but nakuambia...KWA HAKIKA ILO SASA NDIO JIBU! How/Why?, check this... Unapokubali tu Ukuhani umebadilika na Laws concerning ukuhani huu ni nyingine, unawezaje KUURUDISHA ukuhani huu MPYA, wa AINA MPYA chini ya sheria/taratibu MPYA chini ya Ukuhani wa Zamani, wa aina ya KALE chini ya sheria/taratibu za NYUMA? u see the point now  au bado?

Halafu unajua bwana Rwezaura, ktk michango yako, ulishasema wazi kua unaelewa kua YESU alitengeneza Wine ila ukaunga na concept ya mabalasi-kua ni mavyombo ya kuoshea ambayo ndio yaliyotumia kujazia maji yale yaliyokua Kilaji-an attempt to make the event/Jesus miracle degraded


Lakini pamoja na maelezo yako hayo, unashindwa kuona kua the moment umekubali kua that was Wine made by Jesus,it was the moment this debate ilikwisha maana kwa hakika ukishauona huo ukweli kama ulivyo Yoh.2: 1-11, from there unawezaje pindisha/piga lecture kubwa au ndogo/leta Tafiti za Scandinavia to Singida kuja kukana na kudhambisha kitu ambacho tayari umekisema kilitengenezwa na MWENYEWE?

Ndio maana mie nilijua tu toka mwanzo wa debate hii, nikasema, kutakua na side 2 siku zote kuhusu Pombe-drinking and being drank mtasema mengiii, mtahubirii, mtatoa ufunooo, mtaleta tafiti weee, mtaongea kwa misisimko na ukali wa kifire-fire Kiinjilist kibaya kile LAKINI hamtakaa mvuke hapo alichofanya Yesu-kubalansi hilo. Nilidokeza kua mtapata tabu na nikaongeza juzi hapa kua kuna hatari ya kumu-critize Bwana Mwenyewe maana haiwezekani Bwana Mtakatifu kutengeneza dhambi au kuwafanya Watu wadhambi ikiwa kunywa ni dhambi na Wine kama ilivyo ni dhambi! Unaon  kazi iyo?

Kwakweli, John na walio upande wako, debate/Majadiliano haya yalikwisha zamani mlipokubali kua alichofanya siku ya Arus ni water into Wine( tumia Kiingereza iyo maana naona neno Kiswahili- Pombe linawatia munkari kweli wa kuanza kufyatuka kukemea 24/7.

Press on

2013/12/8 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>

--

[Seleli Edwin]

Alleluyah, Amen,

Kwa Maswali yako baadhi, I doubt kama  umesoma 'Mikeka' yote !!!!!!  I challenge and encourage readers always out of good nia kua they should TRY to take the trouble/time Wapendwa kusoma kwanza kabla ya kuachilia ili ku-ensure your relevance and connectivity ya inputs zako. Otherwise kama yaliyopita ni mengi kuyasoma yanachosha na wakati kifuani vijito vya maji ya uzima vimejaa na kunachemka then inabidi mtu awe so smart kweli kushare BILA kusoma yaliyopo ILI usishangaze!


SWALI: Je sadaka ya kutoa kwa Bwana yaweza kuwa pombe?

JIBU:    Je Yesu anaweza toa  pombe(WINE) kwa Watu?



SWALI: Kanisa laweza kuanzisha kiwanda ama biashara ya pombe ili kujipatia faida?

JIBU: Haliwezi but Kanisa hilo hilo linatumia mazao mazuri ya pombe  na sigara-Kodi inayolipwa na pombe na sigara Nchi hii ni kubwa sana ndio inatujengea barabara, visima vya maji, shule, kununulia madawa hospitalini na unapokwenda Moro kuhubiri, unapanda Bus la Abood ambalo kila mwaka linazindikwa na majini kumi elfu na kafara ya Watu-uku ukipita ktk barabara ya  fegi na pombe ilisimamia na Waziri mzuri anaitwa Pombe Magufuri, see that? barabara ni pombe, Waziri ni Pombe= Kanisa linafaidi huduma ya Pombe Waziri na product ya pombe-barabara. Utaki? hama sasa tukukute JUU later.


SWALI: Wote wanywao pombe ni kwakuwa wanaumwa na wanaitumia kwaajili ya kujitibu ama kuweka afya yao sawa kutokana na magojwa?

JIBU: Wengine ni kwa kua wanaumwa, wengine ni kinywaji cha kawaida kama vinywaji vingine, wengine ni sehemu ya chakula, wengine burudani tu na kwa kufanya ivyo wanapitilizia mpaka kua drank from drinking

Hi habari ya kwamba kuna roho(Kindly be advised kutotumia Neno 'ROHO' ukimaanisha ''roho''). kwa anayepata glass yake kisha tuombee, si lazima hata kidogo na mnaweza kuomba 24/7, nothing happen, I CAN GUARANTEE. Hii ndio approach ya kipendwa ktk baadhi ya mambo si hili tu ambayo hua haina mashiko ktk Neno bali ni spiritual emotions and feelings- Kiinjilisti Kifire-fire move or reactinos,..... well, I confess hata mie ninayo but naweza ibalansi kunapokua na undeniable fact nzito. Wote tumekua ktk huduma mbalimbali, utakubaliana nami kua, unaweze muombea Mlevi chakarii na waaaalaaa, kusifurumke roho yoyote, as a matter of fact,  nilishaongoza sala ya toba Walevi 2 na wala hakukutoka kitu na wakaendelea na Wokovu from that point ya kulewa-lewa prayer of repentance...yaani huwezi amini, acheni aitwa BWANA tu.

Halafu ni vema kuelewa si kila tabia lazima iwe ni/na roho!!!!!!!!!!-hapo napo kuna tabu-wale wapo viongozi wa dini/imani aidha ni extremes au  waliopotoka bila kujijua au wanajijua ila kiburi  na hawataki kusikiliza kurudiwa labda kwa sababu ya kua na watu wengi na maarufu, huchukulia  neno lao kua final badala ya la Mungu, ndio kunakuaga na imbalanced teachings nyingi including kua kiiiiiila tabia ni roho!!!!!!!!!! The fact is, si kila anayekunywa pombe ANA roho na si kila anyekunywa HANA roho...

Ukisema kua kila tabia ni roho na sharti itoke  tukiomba eg kunywa pombe,  vipi kua na hasira, kugombana na Mke/Mme, kutolipa deni, kushindwa kufunga na kuomba, kutokwenda ibada, kutosoma Bible week/mwezi, kutowafurahia wenzako, kutokua mtu wa kukubali karama, kipaji na neema ya mwenzio, kuto-appreciate mambo matamu na mazuri ya mwingine, wivu nk..hayo yooooote ni tabia, Je wayatendapo Wanadamu, wanapokua wa ivyo, wana maroho siyo? Kama jibu ni ndio basi kila mmoja humu ana karoho kake spesheli aisee! Anyway. ni ignorance tu ya mambo au msingi mbaya wa yule aliyewakalia juu ya maisha yako kiroho kuwaongoza ktk mambo kadhaa

Swala si kushuhudiwa kua Wine ni njema au la--hapo tena kuna exaggeration   au overspiritualization unnecessarily! swala ni NENO linasemaje! Ukisema kushuhudiwa kua ni mbaya au la, swali gumu sana ni hili.... ni Je Yesu wakati anabadili maji into Wine ktk Joh.2: 1-11, why hakushuhudiwa kua He was making pepo/dhambi/kitu kibaya?

Press on.

2013/12/9 iqualiptus malle <iqua...@gmail.com>

[Gladys JB]

Well said Jerome.

Si kwamba tunapingana na andiko la haruc ya Kana, lakini hapa tunachojali zaidi ni fundisho la rohoni na kuwa RM anashuhudiaje ndani yako unapokunywa hiyo glasi moja ya pombe?

Kama ukinywa hiyo kidogo unabakia na amani kabisa basi kuna shida mahali fulani.

Tafuta suluhishi b4 it is too late.

GJ

>>> >>strictlygospel+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>>>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga
>>> > mwili
>>> > wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
>>> > kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
>>> > Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu
>>> > 0714
>>> > 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
>>> > Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
>>> >
>>> > Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
>>> >
>>> > Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

>>> > strictlygospel+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga
>>> > mwili
>>> > wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
>>> > kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
>>> > Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu
>>> > 0714
>>> > 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
>>> > Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
>>> >
>>> > Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
>>> >
>>> > Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

>>> > strictlygospel+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga
>>> mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru
>>> kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu
>>> Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa
>>> simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
>>> Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
>>>
>>> Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
>>>
>>> Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

>>> strictlygospel+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga
>>> mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru
>>> kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu
>>> Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa
>>> simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
>>> Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
>>>
>>> Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
>>>
>>> Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

>>> strictlygospel+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>>
>> --
>> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili
>> wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
>> kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la
>> Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714
>> 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
>> Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
>>
>> Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
>>
>> Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

>> strictlygospel+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>
> --
> Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili
> wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia,
> kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu.
> Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424.
> Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk
> Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370
>
> Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com
>
> Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

> strictlygospel+unsub...@googlegroups.com

>

--
Tafadhali zingatia msingi wetu ni Neno la Mungu, Lengo letu Kuujenga mwili wa Kristo, kushirikiana, amani na upendo. Yeyote yuko huru kuchangia, kufundisha, kukubali kufundishwa sawasawa na Msingi wetu Mkuu Neno la Mungu. Kujiunga na Team ya Injili au Maombi wasiliana nasi kwa simu 0714 915 424. Tuma Email. strictl...@yahoo.co.uk Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/pages/Strictly-Gospel/363180289370

Blog: www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com

Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

strictlygospel+unsub...@googlegroups.com

[John Rwezaura]

MWISHO WA MCHANGO WANGU KATIKA HOJA HII,

KUBADILISHWA KWA STYLE YA UKUHANI WA AGANO JIPYA SI KURUHUSU UNYWAJI WA KILEVI KAMA KIBURUDISHO.

KUTETEA KILEVI NI KWA KIGEZO HIKI NI OFF POINT

JOHN

Sent from my iPad

[John Rwezaura]

MWISHO WA MCHANGO WANGU

Nashukuru sana wana SG, akiweni Patrick na Seleli.

Nasikitika kwamba hadi nafikia mwisho wa mjadala huu, Patrick na Seleli hawakujibu maswali yangu. Siwezi ku-conclude kwa vyovyote kilichofanya washindwe kuyajibu! Ila kuna mambo mawili au matatu hivi;

1. Labda nilikuwa natumia lugha ngumu kwa watu wasio sahihi,

2. Au, Walijua wazi kwamba kwa kuyajibu kwa usahihi, ni kuachana na kilevi,

3. Ama, niliwaweka katika nafasi ya kudhani, ambayo iliwazidi kimo, kwa maana hata nilipoamua kutumia lugha ya Taifa, ndiyo kwanza majibu yao yalikuwa mbali na hoja husika. 

Kabla sijawaruhusu kunywa kilevi, naomba tena niyaulize maswali hayo, labda nitampata mtu wa kuyajibu.

1. Mwamini katika Kristo Yesu kwa mujibu wa maandiko ni nani?

2. Je, Title ya Ukuhani imo katika Agano Jipya? Je, Aliye katika Kristo Yesu ni kuhani pamoja naye ama la?

3. Makuhani wa zamani walitakiwa kutotumia kilevi wanapokuwa katika zamu ya kumfanyia BWANA ibada. Je, ni wakati gani kwa mujibu wa Agano jipya, mkristo anatakiwa kutoa dhabihu au kumfanyia BWANA ibada?

4. Wana wa Haruni walikunywa divai wakashindwa kupambanua kati ya mema na machukizo mbele za Mungu, wakafa. Je, Warumi 12:1-2 ina maana gani na nini maana ya kutofuatisha namna ya dunia hii, bali mgeuzwe kwa kufanywa upya nia zenu, mpate kujua ...YALIYO MEMA, YA KUMPENDEZA (MUNGU)?

JIBU MOJA NILILONALO AMBALO NI SAHIHI KABISA NI ILI: MWAMINI WA KWELI NI KUHANI PAMOJA NA KRISTO YESU AMBAYE NI KUHANI MKUU. Imeandikwa, "Iweni watakatifu kama mimi nilivyo mtakatifu, asema BWANA". 

IBADA YA MWAMINI  NI YA WAKATI WOTE NA YUKO MBELE ZA MUNGU KUTOA DHABIHU ZA ROHO ZINAZOKUBALIWA NA MUNGU. HIVYO HANA HATA SEKUNDE YA KUJIFURAHISHA NA KILEVI. NJE YA HAPO, AMEKENGEUKA.

Seleli na Patrick, BWANA YESU hakutengeneza tu divai njema, pia alichapa watu bakora hekaluni. Unadhani ni vyema kuwatandika washirika wakorofi? Fikiri kiutu uzima ndugu zangu.

Hitimisho langu ni hili kwa Patrick na Seleli,

MIMI NAWARUHUSU MNYWE, MFUNDISHE WENGINE KWAMBA POMBE SI DHAMBI, MNAJUA MNACHOFANYA, KWAMBA MNAJENGA AMA MNABOMMOA KANISA LA MUNGU!

Hili siyo tishio la kuwanyamazisha bali ni kuonesha swali kubwa la ninyi kushindwa kujibu maswali yangu!

Kila mtu aiangalie sana kalamu yake na matokeo yake.

Nawatakieni mjadala mwema, kama mnadhani kuna haja ya kuendelea nao.

ASANTE SANA SG NA WANACHAMA WOTE.

JOHN

Sent from my iPad

[Patrick Kamera]

Ndugu John,

Umenichekesha kwa hii staili yako ya kuchomokea kwenye mjadala baada ya kuelemewa na hoja zenye misingi ya Maandiko Matakatifu, Hatujatumia tafiti wala mapokeo wala  hekima ya kibinadamu bali tumerejea Neno tu. Hiyo mbinu ya kusingizia unaojadiliana nao hawaelewi, ufahamu wao mdogo, hawajui, hawajibu n.k. ni kutokuutendea haki mjadala huu. It actually reflects poorly on you and not on the subjects of your claims as you seem to think.. 

Maswali yako yote yamejibiwa na nyongeza umepewa na mwenyewe umekiri nimejibu maswali yako na kwenda beyond, umeshasahau mara hii? Na tena si ajabu umejifunza cha ziada ila kazi ipo kwenye kukubali hilo, sema tu ukweli it's ok to admit you don't know everything, we are all learning, no one has monopoly on the Word except God Himself, na huenda ulikuwa hujayaangalia Maandiko katika eneo hilo katika  mapana yake na kuona jinsi yanavyokinzana na mapokeo yako ndio maana umeshindwa cha kusema kuhusu Bwana Yesu kutengeneza na kunywa wine na ushauri wa mtume Paulo kwa Timotheo, pengine unatamani hayo yasingekuwepo kwenye Biblia lakini Roho Mt. ana maana yake kuyaweka humo, uking'ang'ana wine ni dhambi lakini hapohapo ujaribu kudai Bwana Yesu na Paulo hawakufanya dhambi utakuwa unajipinga kama siyo kupingana na Neno.

Umeshindwa pia hata kukiri utofauti wa ukuhani wa Agano la Kale na ule wa Agano Jipya kwa mujibu wa Waebrania 7:11-17. Umekwepa kabisa kuukabili mstari wa 12, maana kukubaliana na hilo Andiko ndio kusambaratika kwa msingi wa hoja yako iliyojikita kwenye Walawi 10:8-11.

Halafu pengine umepitiwa mpendwa katika kutoa hitimisho lako, labda nikukumbushe tu kuwa wewe huna mamlaka ya kuturuhusu kufundisha chochote kile, kwani kufundisha ni huduma ambayo Bwana  Yesu mwenyewe anamwitia yule atakaye Yeye, hatupeani ruhusa za kufundisha sisi kwa sisi,, kwa hiyo wewe relax tu wala usijitwike wajibu huo, hutauweza kaka. Bwana Yesu aliahidi kulijenga kanisa lake na milango ya kuzimu haitalishinda, rest assured Yeye aliyesema hivyo analijenga kanisa lake vizuri tu na ataikamilisha kazi aliyoianza.

Ni vizuri tufikie mahala Neno la Mungu lililogawanywa kwa usahihi linakuwa na ushawishi wa juu kabisa maishani mwetu na siyo mapokeo yetu ya kidini tuliyorithishana vizazi na vizazi. Nimalizie na maneno haya muafaka kwa mjadala huu mtume Paulo aliyowaandikia Wakolosai:

16 Basi, mtu asiwahukumu ninyi katika vyakula au vinywaji, au kwa sababu ya sikukuu au mwandamo wa mwezi, au sabato;20 Basi ikiwa mlikufa pamoja na Kristo mkayaacha yale mafundisho ya awali ya ulimwengu, kwa nini kujitia chini ya amri, kama wenye kuishi duniani,
21 Msishike, msionje, msiguse;
22 (mambo hayo yote huharibika wakati wa kutumiwa); hali mkifuata maagizo na mafundisho ya wanadamu?
23 Mambo hayo yanaonekana kana kwamba yana hekima, katika namna ya ibada mliyojitungia wenyewe, na katika kunyenyekea, na katika kuutawala mwili kwa ukali; lakini hayafai kitu kwa kuzizuia tamaa za mwili.

Hivyo basi ndugu John ubarikiwe uwe na amani tu na wapendwa wote mzidi kubarikiwa,

Ndugu yenu,

Patrick

2013/12/10 John Rwezaura <revrw...@yahoo.com>

[Anthony Athanas]

Shalom wote ,

Nashindwa kuwaelewa ni kwamba mnatafiti  nini, huu msuli mnaotumia kutetea ulevi, mngetumia kuhubili injili iliyohai. Binafsi naona ni upotevu wa mda na nikucheleweshana ktk mambo ya Mungu.

Nikiuliza hapa kwenye forum mmewasaidia wangapi zaidi ya kuwajengea hakika kwamba pombe si mbaya ukitumia kidogo? ????

Wapendwa mnanishangaza sana maana kila anaetetea anamalizia kuwa yeye hatumii, je unaijadili na kutetea ya nini? ?.
Siku moja tulikuwa na kikao na wasiokoka tukijadili jinsi ya kumsaidia classmate wetu asinywe maana anafanana na kichaa kwa sababu ya ulevi.  Na yeye akinywa chupa moja amelewa na hawezi kurudi kwake wala kuamka kwenda kazini. Kashindwa kuishi na mke wala hana kazi. Akiajiliwa anafukuzwa kwa sababu ya pombe. Nashangaa watumishi kutoa misuli yao kutetea ulevi, is like kiding.  Nijuavyo mimi pombe zenye alcohol zina tofauti na divai au mvinyo kiprocess. Hata kule kwetu kuna pombe za aina nyingi. Hata gongo ni pombe na ni dawa kama hujui licha ya serikali kuiharamisha. Sasa wapakwa mafuta mnakuja na vifingu eti si mbaya kwa glass moja. Duh huku ni kuishiwa kweli kweli.

Pombe Hii imeharibu family nyingi na hata ktk uko wetu na hata babangu imemharibu. Japo at age ya mimi nikiwa 25yrs alikuwa hanywi baadae akaanza kunywa kidogo lakini sasa ni mlevi na tunatafuta hata dawa itakayomsaidia asinywe.  Ivi mnajua kwamba kunakitu inaitwa addicted najua ni watu wasomi hapa. Sasa hili unaliweka vipi. NI KUCHELEWESHANA TU HAPA. au kunalijamaa linajaribu kuanza kutumia kilevi. 

Nakwambia kabisa hauko salama ukitumia hiyo glass moja. I hate I hate I hate alcoholic drinks! Siwezi kuchekelea ati pata kidogo angalau glasi moja hiyo ni sawa na kwenda kushika sharubu za simba akiwa amelala.

SAMAHANI NMESHINDWA KUTUMIA LUGHA RAHISI,  ATAKAYEKWAZIKA ANIOMBEE ILI NIWEZE KUJA SIKU NYINGINE KIURAHISI ZAIDI.

BARIKIWA WOOOOTE NAWAPENDA
ANTHONY MWENDA.

[Seleli Edwin]

Anthony Atanas,

Umenichekesha kweli na hii yako...''' au kunalijamaa linajaribu kuanza kutumia kilevi''?....mmmh! rijamaa gani ilo? umenidunda kiaina nini? tehe! anyway, ondoa shaka, hariiiipo iro rijamaa na hata kama litakuwepo na likaanza, ngumu kulishinda kwa maandiko maana hutakatiza ukweli wa Arusi ya Kana, labda ulishinde kwa hekima nyingine zenye hoja fulani ivi  mfano, kimaongozi unapokataza kitu kwa kundi kwa nia na sababu nzuri hata kama kimaandiko, hakipo au kiko kotekote-yaani kwenye yes utakipa na hata  kwa  no, utakipata.

Hii nimependa sana na nitakupa sababu why nimependa hii...'' I hate I hate I hate alcoholic drinks! Siwezi kuchekelea ati pata kidogo angalau glasi moja'', Nimependa kwa kua mara nyingi, Wapendwa kweli ni wengi kwa uzoefu wangu, wanakuaga na maisha  ambayo siyo wao haswaa, kama  vile actors! huwezi jua wakati anacheka, amechukia, amependa, amefyumu, kabarikiwa hapendi, anapenda nk. Ni mara chache wengi hudhani kiroho ni kua unayeficha ficha hisia zako ziwe nzuri-kufurahi, kucheka au mbaya-kukasirika na kupata hasira, kutoridhika nk...

Personaly napenda mtu wazi, straight na unamvyomuona hapa kwa email au, kule kanisani ndivyo ukikutana naye  street, live, home ndivyo alivyo, ni yeye halisi, no acting or artificiality .Therefore, kwangu mie waaala huitaji kuomba radhi eti kwa maneno makali/hukua na lugha rahisi-.....aaah! what for your radhi bwanaa? mbona simple tu and normal kabisa, kwani kuna cha ajabu hapo? kwani kuna mtu umu ambaye waga afyumu? aboreki? akasiriki/ ashikwi hasira? anyooshe mkono basi!!!!!!!! aa si ndio hayo mie waga siyafagilii/artificial life au pretendence kudhani ndio kiroho! So, you relax..no radhi wala nini, relax, be free, express your hoja, feelings naturally kabisa, no p man-

Mimi ni aina ya wapendwa ambaye sipotezagi hata dk moja INAPOBIDI kuonyesha hisia zangu niwe niko happy and niwe nimefyumu.Maandiko yanesema, Wanafunzi waliposhindwa kutoa pepo, its clear Yesu haku-act sijui kwa so called hekima wala nini-aliwapa kubwa kwa kuwaambia...nitachukuliana nanyi mpaka lini au sema nikae nanyi mpaka lini?....kwa sentence hiyo, u can be sure alikua hajisikii raha kama ile ya kukamata fanta bariiiiiiidiii sana na kuiangamiza toka uso wa dunia hii-He was angrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyy, bored, not happy kwa Wanafunzi kuchemka task ile wakati ameshawapa madesa ya kufa/kupona mtu mwanzo mwisho.

Labda kuhusu swali lako kua ''Nikiuliza hapa kwenye forum mmewasaidia wangapi zaidi ya kuwajengea hakika kwamba pombe si mbaya ukitumia kidogo? ???''

JIBU: Mister!!!! tuelewane kabisa hapo na kwa hoja iyo, niseme mengi na pia ushauri au wosia kwa wote wana wa Mungu na nayasema yote haya kwa upendo na ofcoz ujasiri kabisa-sio tabu kwangu kusema moja kwa moja bila kumung'unya!!!!!!! Kama kuna mtu atakua ameelewa au amejengewa kua pombe safi, ni tatizo la ufahamu au ni kuamua kwa makusudi kutoelewa. Unajua nikichekesho cha aina yake jambo liko very clear ktk Neno na Mungu wa hekima yote na anaye care sana kujenga Watu bado akaruhusu iandikwe live na kila mmoja asome mwenyewe au kusomewa au kujifundisha au kufundishwa eg ktk sessions Makanisani au Vyuoni, Mashueni kama ''TUCHAMBUE NA KUTAFAKARI NENO, halafu tuassume hapa SG kua hapana kujadii hili na  kile eti tunajenga watu kuchapa kiraji! it does nit make any sense kwa kua tayari wanajua miaka kama si miezi ktk Biblia zao.

Mtu wa kiroho kweli, hajengwi kwa kuficha-ficha, danganya-danganya, fumba-fumba,papasa-papasa, tisha-tisha, funika-funika, panikisha-panikisha bali mtaifahamu KWELI nayo KWELI itawaweka HURU-thas the principle..ONLY TELL THE TRUTH NA ACHA UKWELI IJITETEE. Kujaribu kutetea ukweli uwe uwongo au in polite way niseme, uwe ukweli uliofichwa, Ukweli huo utakataaga kufichwa! UKWELI UNA NGUVU SANA, UNAFURUMUAGA MAUDONGO YALIYOTUMIKA KUIZIKIA na unapendaga uwe PEEUPEEE NA WAZI, kila mmoja aone na achague.

Otherwise, humu SG kwa neema ya Mungu tumeshare mengi mno ya kujenga na pengine, tungewahimiza pia Watu wa Mungu humu hao unasema kua, tumewajengaje, wawe wanasema, tia moyo, appreciate, changia, toa maoni, inapendeza sana na ni tabia njema watu wa Mungu kua wazi, roho njema, kufurahia neema, karama, vipaji, huduma Mungu alizotupa wote humu au mwenzio kuliko kua na roho mbaya, wivu, kula kobisi tu, kukaushia, kupotezea, kutohimizana, kutojali nk. Ni vema pia  wote, tukajenga basi kwa kujitolea muda na sadaka kusoma ya Neno, vitu mbalimbali, kupata muda kuandika  shuhuda, jumbe na kushare pia.

Nadhani, ungeliona hilo pia na kuhimiza na kuhamasisha, ungekua na balansi nejma sana. Facility kama hii ikiwa so active, inabariki sana, umu tukiamua kua na roho ya kutiana moyo na kufurahi karama na huduma na upendo wa kujitoa, yaani KILA SIKU, tunaweza kua tunakula na kunywa sana mambo matamu na mazito ya JUU via enyi watumishi wote humu kuanzia aliyeokoka leo hadi wa miaka yote nyuma. Mimi naandika sana, napenda na ni huduma, ila wakati mwingine hua nadhani hakuna anayesoma au ninapose ili wengine wajitoe au sijui wapate nafasi, but hamtokei,  mnakaa kimya siku, miezi why? na kanisa hili tu washirika wote na kila mmoja ana wajibu hapa? hakuna wa kujitoa kwa Bwana kwa Watu wake?  na Tukijitoa si mtutie moyo basi ili upako na mafuta yachemke zaidi ili tuje zaidi na zaidi kama mnabarikiwa?kama sivyo, si mnasema tu wazi moja kwa moja , mbona simple tu!

Ila bwana debate hii safi sana, mpaka Wewe na Mze wa jina linalonipa tabu yet zuri Iqulip.... Malle, mmekuja hapa LIVE-si nyuma ya pazia kushughulika? mnepata moyo, time na hamu na majabza holy one kuririrrizi small mkeka? great! debate kama izi oyeeeeee! Embu fikiri hii nondo/hekima/tanzanite statement ningeipata wapi hii Antony hii..'''Kupata kidogo angalau glasi moja hiyo ni sawa na kwenda kushika sharubu za simba akiwa amelala'''' ha h aha ha  i loooooove it..yaani nimewaza ile unamkaribia kumkamata hayo manyasi yake natural hayo halafu bahati mbaya anashituka usingizi, heheheehehe....weeeee! u will know kwamba kitumbua siyo kigoda cha kukalia na kwa nini Kware-Kuku pori aligoma kuliwa na humans kirahisi-rahisi ha ha ha ha aha , Aiiiiiiiiiiiimeen Brother..

Press on.

2013/12/10 Patrick Kamera <pka...@gmail.com>

[John Rwezaura]

PATRICK, USISUMBUKE SANA NA KUSEMA MENGI KUHUSU USAFI NA UHALALI WA KILEVI AU UBAYA WAKE, NJE YA MADA NA KUSUDI LA KUJENGA.

PIA ACHA UCHOKOZI WA PSYCHOLOGY! I REGARD YOU ALL AS VIPs HEAR ON EARTH

TUWAACHIE WASOMAJI WETU. NAAMINI WANA UWEZO WA KUCHAMBUA NA KUJUA NANI ANA HOJA NA NANI ANATUMIA NGUVU KUBWA KULINDA HOJA YAKE.

WANADAMU KILA MMOJA ANA MSIMAMO WAKE NA ANAWEZA KUAMUA KUFUATA ANACHOTAKA, PIA ANA NAFASI YA KUJIRIDHISHA JUU YA HOJA ZITOLEWAZO NA WENGINE. 

WASOMAJI WETU WANAENDA MBALI KULIKO TUNAVYOFIKIRI. WANASOMA PIA NA UWEZO WETU WA KUJIELEZA.

KUNA NGUVU YA HOJA, NA HOJA YA NGUVU. SISI WASEMAJI TUNAWEZA KUISHIA KUANDIKA TU NA KUCHUANA, LAKINI WASOMAJI WANAELEWA KULIKO SISI.

JOHN

Sent from my iPad

[Mathew Maduhu]

Wapendwa SG, Shalom,

IS WINE - ALCOHOL?

Hope I'm not late. Before we can answer the Qn Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol? Because we have quoted the Scriptures from OT to NT, refering to Wine, we better answer this first, Is Wine, Alcohol or not? To me the answer is both YES and NO.

 

Japokuwa watumishi wengine wamesha-conclude. Lakini naomba nizungumze/nitoe yaliyopo moyoni. Nimejitahidi kusoma mikeka yote na michango mbali mbali na kila mmoja na point za msingi LAKINI nionavyo mimi TATIZO LIPO HAPA:

 

1) TOFAUTI KATI YA MVINYO NA DIVAI - Tafasiri za Ki-English hazitofautishi, limetumika neno WINE through out, lakini Kiswahili chetu kimetofautisha (ninafurukuta kutafuta hii tofautisha ya waswahili waliipata wapi?- When I'm ready nitawajuza). Ni kweli kwamba zao ni zabibu lakini product ziko tofauti. Mvinyo (ina kilevi) ni pombe na divai (haina kilevi) ni kinywaji normal. Sio kila zao za mzabibu ni pombe inategemea ime-undergo which process, to what extend na imekaa muda gani. Nina maandiko mengi yanayoonyesha tofauti mvinyo na divai kama mkiyataka nitayatoa.

 

Ukisoma vizuri tokio la Harusi ya Kana  (Yoh 2:1-11) - Yesu aligeuza maji kuwa divai, sivyo mvinyo. Hivyo point ya kusema Yesu alitengeneza pombe haipo. Wakati wa pasaka kichokuwapo pale ni divai, just image Sikukuu ya Mikate isiyotiwa chachu, Yesu na wanafunzi wake wanashushia kilaji (chenye chachu) kwa mikate isiyotiwa chachu what a confusion!!! - Seleli mdogo wangu are u there? Yesu aliposema sikakunywa tena - watch his words - uzao wa mzabibu. Je alimaanisha kilaji? angalia anavyomalizia - "hata siku ile nitakapounywa mpya katika ufalme wa Mungu." kama uzao wa mzabibu, jibu ni pombe (kilaji) basi hii inamaanisha kuwa kwenye ufalme wa Mungu - kilaji ni kama kawa..

 

2) USHAURI WA PAULO KWA TIMOTHEO - Neno "Tokea sasa usinywe maji tu......... 1Timotheo 5:23., linaonyesha kuwa Timotheo alikuwa hatumii mvinyo (kilaji/pombe - Alcohol). Lakini ushauri huu was very specific not general ili kumsaidia kutatua tatizo la magonjwa yake. Lakini ni kwanini Paul amshauri atumie mvinyo - Ulikuwa unatumika kama dawa. Mnakumbuka habari ya Msamaria na mtu aliyeangukia mikononi wa wanyang'anyi - First Aid kwa majeraha yale ilikuwa ni nini?

 

3) Kuhusu issue ya Yesu kuitwa mlafi na mlevi (Mathayo 11:19). Kwa mtazamo wangu sidhani kama Yesu alikuwa hivyo. Mbona tuzungumzie ulevi tu na wakati kuna ulafi uliosemwa juu yake? Hata hivyo Luka (tabibu) anaweka more light katika LUKA 7:34 - "Mwana wa Adamu amekuja, anakula na kunywa; nanyi mwasema, Tazama, mlafi huyu, na mnywaji wa divai,........" (SUV - msisitizo added). Look sio na mnywaji wa mvinyo!!!

 

Haya mambo ya ukuhani na ufalme katika OT na NT na change of Law baada ya Yesu kuwa High Priest kwenye context ya WINE, watumishi waliotangulia wamenyambulisha vya kutosha na kama tutakubaliana kutofautisha kati ya DIVAI na MVINYO the case can be easy closed.

 

Kwa hiyo ni vema tukaangalia matumizi ya neno - WINE hasa kwenye original language lilimaanisha nini, ili isije likatufanya tuone kwa sehemu maandiko yanatoa kibali cha kukata kilaji nga glass moja na upande mwingine yanakataza kwa nguvu zote.

Now I'm ready to answer the Qn; Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol? - MY ANSWER IS YES. USIKUNYWE POMBE. Kwani vinywaji vyote hivi vilivyopo sasa havitoshi mpaka upate glass moja ya kilaji ndo kiu itoke? Sasa hiyo ni kiu ya kiu au kiu ya pombe?

Nilikuwa napita tu kutokea kwenye temporary unyakuo ninaoendelea nao.

 

Keep on digging.

Mathew.

 

 

2013/12/11 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>

[Seleli Edwin]

John  Rwezaura and all SG.

Shalom.

Nisikilizeni nitoe maoni yangu binafsi  haya:, ruksa kuyapinga au kuyakubali, yote ni mema tu na baraka bado.

Kwanza, mijadala ya wazi, uhuru na peupe kama hii, inafaa sana kwakua inazalisha bidii na hamu ya kusoma Neno na vyanzo vingine vya kupata maarifa kuhusu Neno na mambo ya Mungu, pia inasababisha wengi kupata ufahamu wa mambo kwa mara ya kwanza kabisa au ukweli wa upande wa pili ambao hukuwahi kujua au kuwaza kua upo, Na pia debate zikiwa kali ni tamu sana kwa sabubu zinafanya sasa wahusika watoe/watumie yaliyo ya ndani kabisa kuliko kuficha-ficha, ziwe ni mitizamo, hisia, karama, vipaji, huduma, shuhuda na uzoefu wa huduma na kutembea na Mungu na ikifika hapo, tegemea faida nyingi kuliko hasara kwa kua tutapata mengi mno

Pili, inasababisha Watu tufahamiane kwa ukwelii tukoje na hiyo ni baraka maana tukifahamiana  ki-artificial tu- haipendezi

Tatu, kuhusu topic, ningekua mimi John R na wenzako, ILI NISIJIKUTE KTK MATATIZO YA KUPAMBANA NA WANAFUNZI/KONDOO WADADISI KAMA MIE, KUWAKEMEA BURE NA KUWAFIKIRIA KUA UFAHAMU WAO MDOGO KUMBE WANA NEEMA PIA, ningejibu ivi kwa amani na ukweli kabisa na pia kwa HEKIMA ya ufahamu wa namna mambo yanavyoweza kuamuliwa/ endeshwa/wekwa kwa ajili ya kuongoza Watu wa Mungu

• Kiblia ni ngumu sana kua na statement ya moja kwa moja kusema kunywa Wine ni dhambi labda kulewa, why? Maandiko yanaonyesha side 2.

• Kama Mtu anaongea kwa max finality kua Kunywa pombe ni dhambi, anajiingiza ktk mgogoro mkubwa sana Kimandiko na pia ni sawa na pia kumwambia Yesu alitengeneza ''dhambi''-Arusi ya Kana au alimwambia mwanae Timothy anywe ''dhambi''
  

• Na kung'ang'ania kua nidhambi, wakati anajua kabisa hana na hawezi kupata A-Z statement/Neno ktk Neno, ni wazi, atakua anaingiza man-made by Laws ambazo zaweza kua sawa na kinasaidia Wanadamu kufikia malengo fulani  but ni vema Mhusika akakiri kwanza kua hicho ni chake/man-made kama Paul alivyokua jasiri kuandika kua, hili ni MIMI wala sina amri ya Bwana-very honest and open-what a nice mpendwa and leader was he!  wow! you see, Hakua na haja ya kung'ang'aniza kila kitu iwe kiroho kikariiii! alisema live, hili nalisema Mimi si Yesu

• Kwa msingi huo, Kwa miaka mingi, si tu andiko la Arusi ya Kana huwezi sikia lina hubiriwa but also hata kufuatilia kujua hasa ni Muujiza/Ishara gani ya kwanza Yesu kufanya duniani, inazimwa kiaina, yaani utadhani Mungu ana shida sana Watu wakijua kweli iyo wakati Yeye alifanya iandikwe

• Katika kuwaongoza Wanadamu, imetokea Viongozi wa Kiroho wakapata key-privilege ka kuweka  taratibu zao hata kama kwa kweli, SI ZA MUNGU wala hazimo ktk Neno( lakini nitakushitua leo-tulia kwanza acha kukemea ovyo ovyo) bado Mungu alizirithia tu maana SI KILICHOTOKA KWA MTU-kiongozi HATA KAMA SI CHA MUNGU- NI DHAMBI!... mmenipata lugha iyo nadhani. Nitoe Mfano ..Marko.10:1-12 Yesu anasema Musa aliwaruhusu kuwaandikia taraka na kuwatimua Wake zao kwa sababu ya ugumu wa mioyo yao LAKINI TOKA ZAMANI HAIKUA IVYO-manake anasema, toka zamani MPANGO WA MUNGU- Neno la Mungu ni  Mtu anamwacha Baba na Mama na kuunganishwa, nao ni mwili mmoJa, hakuna kutenganishwa na Mwanadamu

• Kwa mantiki iyo, hata kama hatuna finality ya vitu kama kuvuta sigara, kunywa pombe na yanayofanana na hayo kua ni dhambi, bado tulikatazwa na viongozi wetu si tu kunywa bali hata kubeba creti la bia kutumwa sigara na Baba yako mzazi, kuchangia arusi za ndugu zetu ambazo unajua kwa hakika watatumia pesa yako kwa kununua kilaji, kupita-pita karibu au kunywa supu bar, kwa sababu ya si ugumu wa mioyo bali urahisi wa kuingia majaribuni kwa kuzidiwa na hayo ambayo hata kama mwanzo wake si mbaya na hayajasemwa kua ni dhambi ila unapelekea madhara kadhaa, Kwa iyo Watumishi kusema kila kitu ni dhambi, bila sisi kuwahoji wameitoa ktk maandiko, ndio imetufikisha hapa tulipo leo ambapo kwa bidii binafsi tunaona yako mambo yalifanyika wakati wa Yesu-Arusi ya Kana ambayo aidha hatukuambiwa au tulizimwa kwa makaripio na makemeo  na macho makali ya kutengwa kanisani sasa yoyote ukifanya mchezo, Kwa hiyo kama vile Musa alivyotumia mamlaka yake kama Baba yao kiroho na kama alivyokua Paul kwa kuwaona  wanae na kuwawekea mambo/mashauri/maamuzi/systemz kadhaa za kufanya wawe safi zaidi, kuondoa matatizo,kutuepushia kunasa ndivyo lilivyo kwetu kwa swala la Wine na Watumishi walichoaamua na kutusimamia kwa hilo kwa namna na maana iyo kwa miaka na kumbuka hatukuruhusiwa kuhoji, wakisema, imetoka, ni Watumishi, over and out maana mpakwa mafuta wa Bwana katamka, kwisha!
  

Press on

2013/12/11 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>

[Anthony Athanas]

Someni haya pia

Mtu hawezi kulewa pombe bila kunywa pombe. Vileo
vinavyopatikana kwa kujidunga kwa sindano vimepewa jina
la ‘Madawa ya Kulevya. Sijawahi kusikia kuna pombe ya
kuingiza mwilini kwa njia tofauti na kunywa. Kwa hiyo watu
wanapozungumzia ulevi wa pombe tayari wanakuwa
mwameshazungumzia kunywa.

Ili pombe iwe pombe ni lazima imleweshe anayeinywa.
Kama mtu atakunywa pombe kwa malengo ya kutokulewa
basi na anywe maji tu! Mtu akila chakula pasipo kushiba
atahakikisha anaongeza chakula hadi ajisikie ameshiba.
Vivyo hivyo mtu akinywa pombe na akawa hajalewa
atahakikisha anaongeza hadi ajisike amelewa. Kutosheka
kwa chakula ni kushiba na kutosheka kwa pombe ni kulewa.

Mtu anapokunywa pombe kinachofanyika mwilini ni kile
kileo (alcohol) kuuathiri ufahamu wa mtu. Ufahamu
ukiathiriwa mtu huanza kufikiri tofauti na utaratibu wake wa
kawaida. (Ni kama komputa ikishaingiliwa na virus). Kama
alikuwa na matatizo anayasahau. Kama kuna mahali pana
shimo hupaona ni tambarare. Wengine hupotea hata
nyumbani kwao. Kama mtu anaendesha gari huwa hawezi
tena kutambuwa ukubwa wa kona, au umbali kati ya gari
analoendesha na jingine. Ajali nyingi zinasababishwa na
ulevi kutokana na kunywa pombe. (naamini nawe unajuwa).
Mwingine akinywa pombe hujisikia usingizi kuliko kawaida.
Mwingine kama ni muongeaji sana akinywa pombe huwa
mkimya kabisa na hivyo kuacha kuongea hata kama
alitakiwa aongee kuleta suluhu ya jambo fulani nk. Kwa
ujumla ni kwamba mfumo wa ufahamu wa mtu
huharibiwa….

….Hali yoyote ambayo mtu hujisikia tofauti baada ya
kunywa, hata kama ni pombe kiasi kidogo sana, ndiyo ulevi
wenyewe. Kwa hiyo suala hapa siyo kiasi gani cha pombe,
bali ni ule utofauti wa hisia unaopatikana baada ya kunywa
pombe. Kwa hiyo kulewa ni hali ambayo mtu hujisikia tofauti
na alivyokuwa akijisikia kabla ya kunywa pombe. Kama mtu
atakunywa pombe kisha akajisikia vile vile alivyokuwa kabla
ya kunywa basi mtu huyo hawezi kuendelea kunywa tena.
Lakini kwa sababu akinywa huwa anajisikia tofauti ndiyo
maana mtu huyo huendelea kunywa….

Kwa hiyo hadi hapo tunaweza kuona kuwa kunywa pombe si
kitu chema kwa binaadamu yeyote bila kujali anamwamini
Yesu au la kwa maana madhara ya pombe hayachaguwi. Na
hivyo basi ni kitu ambacho Mkristo anayejivunia katika
kutenda mema kwa ufahamu sahihi huku akihofu kumkosea
Mungu hatakiwi hata kukiwazia!

Kuhusu Walokole wa Kizungu kunywa pombe:
Naomba tutumie watu waliookoka. Kwa ufupi tu ni kwamba
hakuna wokovu wa Kizungu na wa Kiafrika. Mungu
hajaweka vigezo tofauti vya namna ya kuingia mbinguni.
Wazungu watahukumiwa sawa sawa na Waafrika…

SEHEMU INAYOFUATA NITAANZA KUWEKA MISTARI
KUTOKA BIBLIA

KUNUKUU BIBLIA SIYO SABABU PEKE YAKE INAYOFANYA
HOJA YA MTU KUWA SAHIHI. Kuna watu wanaodai
maandiko ili kuthibitisha hoja. Kwa mfano kuna watu
wanaodai kuonyeshwa katika Biblia palipoandikwa
‘USINYWE POMBE’!:

Ni kweli kabisa kwamba dira yetu ni Neno la Mungu. Tena ni
kweli kabisa kwamba tunaliamini na kulifuata. Kwa hiyo
kama watoto wa Mungu ni furaha yetu kulifuata Neno la
Mungu maana tunajuwa kwamba ndilo Taa na Mwangaza
katika safari yetu ya kwenda Mbinguni. Lakini sasa
tunatowa hoja tofauti huku kila mmoja akinukuu maandiko
kutoka kwenye Neno hilo hilo! Hapa tunajifunza nini?…..
Neno hilo hilo likitumika Vyema linaleta Wokovu lakini ni hilo
hilo likitumika Vibaya huleta Mauti. Ibilisi analijuwa hilo
ndiyo maana akamjaribu Yesu kwa kutumia Neno hilo hilo!
(Math 4:1-11). Kwa hiyo kutumia au kutokulitumia Neno si
sababu bali ni kwamba anayelitumia Neno analitumia kwa
nia ya Kuleta Wokovu au Kuleta Mauti.

Ili Neno liweze kumsaidia anayelisoma/kulisiliza ni lazima
lichanganyikane na Imani katika Yesu. (Hebr 4:2). Imani hii
ndiyo humfanya mtu apate tafsiri sahihi kwa msaada wa
Roho Mtakatifu wa Mungu. Neno la Mungu siyo la kila mtu
kutafsiri anavyopenda mwenyewe, bali tafsiri sahihi hutoka
kwa Roho Mtakatifu na tafsiri hiyo huwafaa wote wenye
Imani hii katika Yesu maana wao ni mwili mmoja. ”(2Pet
1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture
is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in
old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as
they were moved by the Holy Ghost.)”. Roho Mtakatifu alileta
Neno na ni Roho Mtakatifu ana tafsiri sahihi ya Neno!

Ni kwa kutumia Maandiko Kibwetere aliwakusanya na kisha
kuwachoma moto waumini wake kule Uganda; Ni kwa
kutumia Maandiko wengine wanasali usiku huku wakiwa
wamevua nguo zao; Ni kwa kutumia maandiko Wasabato
Masalia wamekaa siku kadhaa pale Uwanja wa Ndege wa
Dar es salaam wakisubiri kusafirishwa na Mungu; Ni kwa
kutumia maandiko wengine wanafundisha kwamba hakuna
Kuokoka duniani; Ni kwa kutumia maandiko wengine
wamefundishana kwamba hakuna Utatu mtakatifu; Ni kwa
kutumia maandiko Wakuu wa dini zetu (Maaskofu,
Wachungaji nk) wanalumbana, wakati mbingu ya kwenda ni
hiyo hiyo moja nk. Kwa hiyo suala si kutumia andiko bali ni
roho gani inatawala matumizi hayo kwamba ni Roho wa
kweli au roho ya Uongo (1John 4:6). Na tena andiko huuwa
bali Roho wa Mungu huhuisha. (2Cor 3:6).

Roho Mtakatifu hutusaidia kutambuwa mambo yatufaayo
hata kama hayakuandikwa kwenye Biblia (lakini
yasiyopingana na Neno la Mungu) na kutuongoza kuyatenda
na pia hutufunulia maana sahihi ya yaliyoandikwa kwenye
Biblia ili tusijikwae kwayo na kupotea.

Watu wanaotaka kwenda Mbinguni wako tayari kufuata
mema yote Roho Mtakatifu anayowaongoza kwayo bila
kujali yapo kwenye Biblia au la bali Washika dini hawako
tayari kutenda mema hata yale yaliyoandikwa kwenye Biblia
na kinyume chake wametengeneza ya kwao, yanayofuata
mawazo yao! (Mark 7:7)

Kusali Jumapili hakujaandikwa kwenye Biblia lakini Wakristo
wote (isipokuwa Wasabato) husali Jumapili kama ndiyo siku
yao kuu ya Ibada. Tuache kusali Jumapili kwa sababu haiko
kwenye Biblia?

Hebu soma sehemu ifuatayo (nalazimika kuiandika ili
kukamilisha somo langu):
Ubatizo wa Maji mengi uko kwenye Biblia lakini watu
hawataki kuufuata, Kwa nini? Kuokoka duniani kupo kwenye
Biblia lakini watu hawataki kukubali, Kwa nini? Kunena kwa
Lugha mpya kupo kwenye Biblia lakini watu hawakubali,
Kwa nini? Kama wanakataa haya, (na mengine mengi)
pamoja na kuwa yako kwenye Biblia, Watakubalije kwamba
Kunywa pombe (nalo likiwa kwenye Biblia) ni dhambi?

..hebu soma na haya yafuatayo (simhukumu mtu):
Hakuna andiko kwenye Biblia lililoagiza kutengenezwa kwa
sanamu ya Mama Maria lakini mamilioni wamefuata hili,
Kwa nini? Hakuna andiko kwenye Biblia linaloagiza ubatizo
wa kunyunyizia maji kichwani lakini fikiria mamilioni
wanaofanya hivyo, Kwa nini? Hakuna andiko kwenye Biblia
linaloagiza ubatizo wa watoto lakini mamilioni wanabatizwa
wakiwa watoto, Kwa nini? Hakuna andiko kwenye Biblia
linalotuagiza kumuomba Mungu Amlaze Mtu Aliyekufa
Mahali Pema Peponi lakini huu ni wimbo wa Ulimwengu,
Kwa nini?
Kama tunakubali haya (na mengine mengine) ambayo
hayako kwenye Biblia Kwa nini tusikubali kwamba Kunywa
Pombe, hata kama lisingekuwepo kwenye Biblia, ni dhambi?

Wapendwa, kwa sisi tunaotaka kwenda Mbinguni tufunguwe
vitanzi vya dini na kumkimbilia Yesu kabla Neema hii ya
Wokovu haijaisha. Kabla nuru ingalipo na giza la milele
halijaingia. Siku ya wokovu ni leo na saa ya Wokovu ni sasa!
(2Cor 6:2).

[Anthony Athanas]

Inapatikana hapa hivyo unaweza pitia na kujifunza wangapi wanahitaji kilevi na wangapi hawataki hata kusikia kama Mimi

https://strictlygospel.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/ni-sawa-kwa-mkristo-kunywa-vileo/

[Seleli Edwin]

Anthony Atanas,

Post uliyo-paste hapa ya bwana John Paul, ukiangalia paragraphs izi mbili kinzani alizojenga hoja yake njema.. utagundua kua ana jaribu kusema yale tumesema na kwa kweli ktk line of thinking inayofanana kwa namna ya MANTIKI na my inputs  ya mwisho wa John R na wana SG wote, ikiwa tu utaisoma hii ya John Paul bth the lines! Let us see these two paras

MOJA:

Kusali Jumapili hakujaandikwa kwenye Biblia lakini Wakristo wote (isipokuwa Wasabato) husali Jumapili kama ndiyo siku yao kuu ya Ibada. Tuache kusali Jumapili kwa sababu haiko kwenye Biblia?Ubatizo wa Maji mengi uko kwenye Biblia lakini watu hawataki kuufuata, Kwa nini? Kuokoka duniani kupo kwenye

Biblia lakini watu hawataki kukubali, Kwa nini? Kunena kwa Lugha mpya kupo kwenye Biblia lakini watu hawakubali, Kwa nini? Kama wanakataa haya, (na mengine mengi) pamoja na kuwa yako kwenye Biblia, Watakubalije kwamba
Kunywa pombe (nalo likiwa kwenye Biblia) ni dhambi?

MBILI:

Hakuna andiko kwenye Biblia lililoagiza kutengenezwa kwa sanamu ya Mama Maria lakini mamilioni wamefuata hili, Kwa nini? Hakuna andiko kwenye Biblia linaloagiza ubatizo wa kunyunyizia maji kichwani lakini fikiria mamilioni wanaofanya hivyo, Kwa nini? Hakuna andiko kwenye Biblia linaloagiza ubatizo wa watoto lakini mamilioni wanabatizwa wakiwa watoto, Kwa nini? Hakuna andiko kwenye Biblia linalotuagiza kumuomba Mungu Amlaze Mtu Aliyekufa

Mahali Pema Peponi lakini huu ni wimbo wa Ulimwengu. Kama tunakubali haya (na mengine mengine) ambayo hayako kwenye Biblia Kwa nini tusikubali kwamba Kunywa Pombe, hata kama lisingekuwepo kwenye Biblia, ni dhambi?

Mimi nilisema ktk michango yangu kua, yako mambo hata kama hayako ktk Neno moja kwa moja au ni ngumu kupata statement ya A-Z kusema with finality kua hiki ni hiki wala si kile, alimradi KWANZA WATU HAO WAMEOKOKA, tutatumia hekima nyingine kuwaongoza Watu ili wabaki ktk malengo-Wokovu na Utakatifu hata kwa kuweka man-made ambazo si za Mungu yaani haziko ktk Neno yet si dhambi maana hazipingi Neno au zinawasaidia Watu kufanya mambo yao kwa utaratibu na utakatifu, Nikatoa mifano ya Musa kuwaruhusu  wawatimue wake zao wakati plan ya Mungu si hiyo na nikasema pia Paul kuamua/sema/toa maelekezo ambayo si ya Kristo but yake kama Mtu yet Kiongozi wa Kiroho aliyoyabuni kuwasaidia Watu-

John Paul  mwenye post uliyotushare hapa, amesema, statement nzito(rahisi wengine wenye misisimko kukemea-kemea haraka) kwamba si kwa kunukuu Maandiko itoshe kuhalalisha/kuharamisha jambo bali ni  ile NIA-kwa maana nyingine , maandiko tu hayatoshi kuyasema.

Nilisema kama hatutaweza kuwabana watu-kuwakataza moja kwa moja kwa kua wanajua nao maandiko na asili za lugha za Bible, basi hata kama tukiacha maandiko na kuweka man-made-by laws/taratibu ambazo zina nia njema, hiyo ndio iwe approach na nikadhani kua ndio imekua hekima ilitumiwa na Wazee wetu wa Imani kutuzuia si tu kunywa na kulewa bali hata kupita na kukaa-kaa karibu  au kunywa supu Bar.

Therefore baadhi ya aliyosema Joh Paul kimantiki , tulishayasema pia hapa.

Press on

2013/12/12 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>

Mathew Maduhu, Kaka yangu Mkubwa sana, nakuheshimu toka moyoni, si act, Amen.

Shalom,

Asante kwa hii...nimecheka kweli-tehe na kuipenda reasoning hii...''Sasa hiyo ni kiu ya kiu au kiu ya pombe?


Nimeshangaa sana kusoma KITU KIPYA KWELI kua iko divai na mvinyo na kua akichotengeneza Yesu ni Divai-no pombe na si Mvinyo-full pombe! Aisee, Is it?

Naona huu ni ufahamu mpya toka debate hii fire-fire ianze..kwamba kuna divai na mvinyo!!!!!!! Wakati nashangaa kwa uzuri na wasiwasi kwa big statement iyo,  utawezaje kupatanisha kweli hii chini Kaka yangu?

Kwamba neno la asili lililotumika wakati wa Biblia kwa kile alichotengeneza Yesu ni linamaanisha ilikua ni Kileo-divai-pombe au sasa kwa inputs yako-ni mvinyo. Na Kingereza-luga kubwa kuzidi Kiswahili kimepata neno lake hili Wine toka neno hilo la asili wakati wa Biblia ila Kiswahili chetu nacho kimebarikiwa kikaleta neno divai.

Kaka Mkubwa kama Mwl, which is which now?..tuamini neno original la lugha ya Biblia-( Mikeka uliojitahidi kusoma-labda hukusoma yote-itakueleza hilo neno asili lakini hata uki-Google tu Arusi ya Kana-unapata nondo kuhusu hasa kwa lugha ya wakati wana rekodi ktk Bible- wenye LUGHA YAO ILE NA WALIOKUWEPO LIVE SIKU ILE YA ARUSI-wamesema alitengeneza wine toka neno la asili ya lugha ile-You see the challenge Kaka? I mean how today we English or Kiswahili users say no to original Bible language used?

Otherwise, I am blessed to see you here, missed u sana my dear Kaka and this debate on kilaji oyeeeee because my Kaka has kicked out temporarily and actually his bad kunyakuliwa  maana  imetu deny presence ya snr. bro hapa

Press on.

2013/12/11 Anthony Athanas <kiman...@gmail.com>

[Seleli Edwin]

Mathew Maduhu, Kaka yangu Mkubwa sana, nakuheshimu toka moyoni, si act, Amen.

Shalom,

Asante kwa hii...nimecheka kweli-tehe na kuipenda reasoning hii...''Sasa hiyo ni kiu ya kiu au kiu ya pombe?


Nimeshangaa sana kusoma KITU KIPYA KWELI kua iko divai na mvinyo na kua akichotengeneza Yesu ni Divai-no pombe na si Mvinyo-full pombe! Aisee, Is it?

Naona huu ni ufahamu mpya toka debate hii fire-fire ianze..kwamba kuna divai na mvinyo!!!!!!! Wakati nashangaa kwa uzuri na wasiwasi kwa big statement iyo,  utawezaje kupatanisha kweli hii chini Kaka yangu?

Kwamba neno la asili lililotumika wakati wa Biblia kwa kile alichotengeneza Yesu ni linamaanisha ilikua ni Kileo-divai-pombe au sasa kwa inputs yako-ni mvinyo. Na Kingereza-luga kubwa kuzidi Kiswahili kimepata neno lake hili Wine toka neno hilo la asili wakati wa Biblia ila Kiswahili chetu nacho kimebarikiwa kikaleta neno divai.

Kaka Mkubwa kama Mwl, which is which now?..tuamini neno original la lugha ya Biblia-( Mikeka uliojitahidi kusoma-labda hukusoma yote-itakueleza hilo neno asili lakini hata uki-Google tu Arusi ya Kana-unapata nondo kuhusu hasa kwa lugha ya wakati wana rekodi ktk Bible- wenye LUGHA YAO ILE NA WALIOKUWEPO LIVE SIKU ILE YA ARUSI-wamesema alitengeneza wine toka neno la asili ya lugha ile-You see the challenge Kaka? I mean how today we English or Kiswahili users say no to original Bible language used?

Otherwise, I am blessed to see you here, missed u sana my dear Kaka and this debate on kilaji oyeeeee because my Kaka has kicked out temporarily and actually his bad kunyakuliwa  maana  imetu deny presence ya snr. bro hapa

Press on.

2013/12/11 Anthony Athanas <kiman...@gmail.com>

Inapatikana hapa hivyo unaweza pitia na kujifunza wangapi wanahitaji kilevi na wangapi hawataki hata kusikia kama Mimi

[Mathew Maduhu]

Edwin,

Ulipata muda ukapitia comments zangu kuhusiana na tofauti kati ya MVINYO na DIVAI. Yesu aligeuza maji yakawa divai sio mvinyo!!!

Kwa habari ya Mvinyo (Kilaji) - Hebu pitia maandiko haya; "Mvinyo hudhihaki, kileo huleta ugomvi; Na akosaye kwa vitu hivyo hana hekima." - Mithali 20:1 (SUV - Msisitizo added) - Mstari huu unaonyesha mvinyo hufanya nini na kilaji huleta nini. 

Pia andiko hili; "Usiwe miongoni mwao wanywao mvinyo; Miongoni mwao walao nyama kwa pupa. Kwa maana mlevi na mlafi huingia umaskini, Na utepetevu humvika mtu nguo mbovu". - Mithali 23:20-21. (SUV - Misitizo added) Kama ukisoma btwn words utaona kuwa neno Kwa maana (mst 23) ninaonyesha kuwa matokeo ya kunywa mvinyo ni kulewa na matokeo ya kula nyama kwa pupa ni ulafi. Bado nina-search kupata products za zabibu na zilivyotumika kwenye maandiko mbali mbali ili kuzitofautisha japokuwa ki-english ni WINE kila sehemu.

 

Keep on digging

Mathew.

2013/12/12 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>

[iqualiptus malle]

Alleluia!

Hongereni woote hapa kwa juhudi ya kujifunza.

Asanteni Patrick na Edwin Selelii kwa "kujaribu kuyajibu" maswali niliyoweka hapo awali JAPO NIMEBAKI NA "sehemu ya MASWALI YANGU".

Edwin Selelii, umesema "I doubt kama  umesoma 'Mikeka' yote !!!!!!", je wadhani hiyo mikeka ina majibu? Hata yale umeweka siyo majibu yake japo umejitahidi kujaribu. 

Hebu angalia jibu lako kwenye swali la kwanza;

..."Je Yesu anaweza toa  pombe(WINE) kwa Watu?"-Sikuwahi ona Yesu "akigawa" pombe kwa watu labda wewe utujibu kuwa umeona wapi Yesu "akigawa" pombe kwa watu ILA nimewahi kuona mara nyingi Yesu "akitoa pombe" kwa watu nao watu hao wakibaki huru mbali na pombe hizo.

Patrick Kamera na Edwin Selelii, hebu tuthibitishie kila mmoja binafsi IMANI YAKO YENYE MATENDO kama wewe umewahi kutii maandiko "kwa kutoa sadaka ya pombe/kileo" kwenye ibada yoyote imhusuyo YWH tangu uwe chini ya jua.

Majibu Mengine ambayo ndugu Selelii umeandika sidhani kama itakuwa busara kuyachambua, ila yakisomwa tena na tena yanajitosheleza kupata "kusudi", Japo hili kwa kiasi fulani liko karibu na jibu "Wengine ni kwa kua wanaumwa, wengine ni kinywaji cha kawaida kama vinywaji vingine, wengine ni sehemu ya chakula, wengine burudani tu na kwa kufanya ivyo wanapitilizia mpaka kua drank from drinking"

Hapo kwenye bolded red ndipo kwenye kudi kubwa, kaama alivyosema ndugu Patrick hapa;

"ni hapana siyo wote wanywao pombe wanafanya hivyo kwa ajili ya afya zao au kujitibu ni wachache sana, wengi wanakunywa pombe kwa kupenda kwao wenyewe." Mimi ninaongeza...kwa kupenda wao wenyewe na kwa raha zao wenyewe sawa na uongozi wa mioyo yao"

Kumbuka Neno limeagiza kuwa chochote tufanyacho kwa neno ama tendo kiwe ni kwa utukufu wa Bwana na kwa jina lake, so nsijui kama nishangazwe ama nisishangazwe kuona mtu akishika chupa/bilauri yake ya kileo ama akimuita Yesu ama akishukuru kwake kwa kumbarikia na kukitakasa kinywaji na kuendelea kukinywa.

Patick Kamera; umemalizia hivi "Kwa habari ya hilo suluhisho la unywaji wa pombe, labda nikuulize mpendwa unasimamia andiko lipi kutoa suluhisho hilo? Kama huna andiko la kusimamia bali unayalazimisha Maandiko kama ambavyo umefanya basi suluhisho lako litabakia kuwa ni kitisho kisicho na mashiko kabisa...."

Je wajua kama wazinzi, waongo, walafi, walevi, waasherati, waoa wake wengi....husimamia maandiko gani? JIBU NI WANAYO MAANDIKO TENA MENGI.

Si kila kusimamia andiko ni sahihi, japo mimi maandiko ninayo meengi sana kuhusu uniulizalo, baadhi ni haya hapa chini:-

Kwanza; IMANI PASIPO MATENDO IMEKUFA- James 2:14-26

Pili; TUYAJARIBU MAMBO YOTE NA KULISHIKA LILILO JEMA....-1Thes 5:21

Tatu; TUZIJARIBU ROHO-1John 4:1

Nne; USILIHARIBU HEKALU.... NAWE UTAHARIBIWA...-1Cor 3:17

• Hivyo kama unahimiza unywaji pombe ambao huutekelezi "imani yako inakuwa mfu". Ukisema tuhakiki kama pombe ni safi ama si safi lazima KUFANYA TENDO la kuipitisha chujioni ili tuone kama itapita bila filtrate(uchafu).
  
• Utajuaje kama jambo ni jema? Kwa kujifunza (Kusoma, kuona toka kwa wengine n.k). Kifupi huhitaji kuvumbua tena tairi, tengeneza tokea wengine wamefika= Huhitaji kuanza kuijaribu pombe kama ukiinywa utalewa / utaweweseka / utaharisha / upako utaongezeka / utajisikia unapaa ama vinginevyo BALI jifunze kwa wale waliotoka kwenye "kifungo hicho"
• Kama kuna kitu tuna mashaka nacho twaagizwa "tuijaribu roho iliyo nyuma yake" Hapa mwingine atauliza, kwa namna gani? nami nina swali hilo hilo, wote twahitaji kujibiwa.
• Kama sayansi ya pombe/ kileo inasema madhara yake ni makubwa kwenye mwili, kwanini kuliharibu hekalu la Bwana? Yeye Bwana amesema atamharibu yule aliharibuye hekalu hilo (Yaani miili yetu) si kwa pombe tu.

Pamoja na kajimkeka kangu hapa ninaomba niweke mambo mawili muhimu ya nyongeza.

Kuna msemo wa Kiswahili usemao "aisifuye mvua imemnyea" nami niweke hapa msemo wangu kuwa "akisifuye kilevi kimemlevya".

Mimi pamoja na waKristo wengine waliozaliwa mara ya pili hapa na kwingineko duniani, tumeona familia zetu, ndugu zetu na watu wengine ama wa karibu nasi ama mbali walivyoteswa na huyo "kileo/kilevi".

Kweli tukisema kila mtu alete ushuhuda wa matokeo ya bilauri ama chupa mojamoja zilizokuwa zikikubatiwa na wapendwa wetu wengine humuhumu mtalia na kutubu.

Kuhusu maandiko na mambo ya kunukuu (kusimamia);

Awali niliainisha "si kila kunukuu ama kusimamia maandiko ni sahihi".

Mfano rahisi ni; Kwa wale waliowahi kwenda kwa waganga (wanga) na wale wanaotibu kwa kutumia roho wa ufalme wa Shetani wanajua fika kuwa baadhi ya wanga hao huwa ni vitabu vya dini ikiwamo biblia (maandiko matakatifu). Ufikapo hapo unapigwa swali la faster, wewe ni mKristo ama Muisilamu ama... Ukishasema mimi ni mKristo mara kitabu chako cha maandiko matakatifu ya dini yako anakichukua na kuanza kukusomea..."Mungu anasema...blah...blah...blah" then tiba zinaendelea. Unajua kwanini wanasoma maandiko?

• Watu hutoa sadaka za kuchinja ngombe, kondoo, mbuzi n.k kwa kusimamia maandiko....Utasikia "...Ibrahimu, Waisreli..."
  
• Watu huoa wake wengi kwa kusimamia maandiko.....Utasikia "..Suleiman...."
  
• Hufanya fitna, chuki....na mengine mengi ambayo maandiko yamekataza HUKU WAKITUMIA MAANDIKO HAYO HAYO KUHALALISHA WAKIFANYACHO....Utasikia "Hata injili inatakiwa kuwafikia watu hata kwa fitna..."

NOTE: Maandiko hayana UHAI bali ROHO ndio HUYAHUISHA, hivyo kila mtu anaweza kuyatumia maandiko hata hao wa ufalme wa pili kama baba yao alivyotumia kumtega Yesu pale nyikani akiwa kwenye maobi. KWA UFUPI NI TUSIBABAISHWE NA MAANDIKO YANAYOSIMAMIWA BALI USAHIHI WAKE JUU YA JAMBO HUSIKA KWA NGUVU YA ROHO WA KRISTO.

Kama tukienenda kwa Roho hatuwi watumwa wa dhambi bali wa sheria ya huyo Roho wa Kristo.

Yesu awatunze!!!

2013/12/13 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>

--
Regards,
Malle Iqualiptus

[thobiasi mosha]

SHALOM AKIWEPO MTU YEYOTE ANASEMA AMEOKOKA NA BADO ANAJENGA HOJA KUHUSU UHALALI WA KUTUMIA KILEVI HUYO SIO SEHEMU YA WANAOSAFIRI KUELEKEA  MJI MPYA MAKAO YA MILELE

pastor thobiasi

2013/12/8 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>

Blog: http://www.strictlygospel.wordpress.com/

 
Kujiondoa Kwenye Kundi Hili Tuma Email:

mailto:strictlygospel%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com

--
Regards,
Malle Iqualiptus

[Patrick Kamera]

Good inputs all around. 

Well said Edwin, once again good observation and deduction, tukiyatumia Maandiko kihalali hatuwezi kuwaambia watu kunywa ni dhambi ila tukitumia hekima, busara na akili tulyojaliwa tunaweza kuwaambia watu wasinywe kwani kuna madhara yatokanayo na kunywa pombe, mfano wako wa Musa kuwaruhusu kutalikiana unahusika sana katika kuliangalia swala hili. bless you kaka, I couldn't agree with you more!

Kaka mkubwa Matthew, that's an interesting point you raise, kuwa divai na mvinyo (wine and strong drink) ni vitu viwili tofauti na divai haina kilevi ila mvinyo ndio una kilevi. Ok hata tukiamua kusema hivyo bado maswali yanakuwa mengi, maana hata kabla ya kuanza kuangalia lugha za asili (Kiebrania na Kiyunani)  tunakabiliwa na changamoto tukiyaangalia Maandiko Matakatifu. 

Mfano, kama ndivyo kwanini Mungu atoe maagizo kama:

9 Usinywe divai wala kileo cho chote,... - Walawi 10:9 SUV So you see right there, the implication is divai ina kilevi

Halafu maneno ya Bwana Yesu mwenyewe alivyonukuliwa na Mathayo na Luka yanaashiria kuwa divai ina kilevi.

Mathayo anamnukuu Bwana Yesu akisema hivi:

19 Mwana wa Adamu alikuja, akila na kunywa, wakasema, Mlafi huyu, na mlevi,... - Mathayo 11:19 SUV

Luka anasema hivi:

34 Mwana wa Adamu amekuja, anakula na kunywa; nanyi mwasema, Tazama, mlafi huyu, na mnywaji wa divai,..- Luka 7:34 SUV

So you see, kulingana na maneno ya Bwana Yesu, the only logical conclusion ni kwamba divai ina kilevi ndio maana walimsingizia ulevi kwa kuwa alikuwa anakunywa divai tofauti na Yohana mbatizaji ambaye alikuwa hagusi divai kabisa kulingana na yale maagizo ya Luka 1:15 

Isitoshe pale harusini ile divai aliyotengeneza ilisifiwa kuwa ni njema kuliko ile waliyotangulia kunywa mpaka mkuu wa meza akasema hivi: 

10 akamwambia, Kila mtu kwanza huandaa divai iliyo njema; hata watu wakiisha kunywa sana ndipo huleta iliyo dhaifu; wewe umeiweka divai iliyo njema hata sasa. - Yohana 2:10 SUV (nimeongeza msisitizo)  that statement alone inaashiria kuwa that wine had intoxicating qualities to it. Huko "kunywa sana" alikokusema MC wa harusi ile kunaashiria kuwa divai ile haikuwa just fresh juice ya zabibu...that's the challenge

Tukija kwenye issue ya Paulo na Timotheo, tukisema kunywa kileo ni dhambi basi hakuna utetezi wowote tutakaoweza kuutoa kumtetea Paulo maana kama ni dhambi ni dhambi, hata kama ni kwa ajili ya dawa bado ni dhambi, no excuses. Nilitoa mfano wa viungo vya uzazi na jinsi ambavyo hata baadhi ya wanaafya wanadiriki kusema visikae dormant muda mrefu kwani si vizuri kwa afya ya mhusika hivyo inabidi mara kwa mara awe anavitumia (soma awe anafanya uasherati) ili kutunza afya ya viungo hivyo, sasa kisingizio hicho hatuwezi kuafikiana nacho na kusema uasherati kwa ajili ya afya ni sawa ili mradi usipitilize na blah blah zingine kama hizo...hivyo we are back to square one, Je Paulo alimpotosha Timotheo hapo? 

Tuendelee kujifunza,

Patrick 

2013/12/12 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>

[Mathew Maduhu]

EDWIN,na SG Wote Shalom,

Kama nilivyotangulia kusema ninafurukuta ili nipate waswahili walipata wapi huu utofauti. Ukiangalia mstari ufuatao utaona neno divai na mvinyo vimetumika vyote - Hebu angalia - "Asile kitu cho chote kitokacho katika mzabibu, wala asinywe divai, wala mvinyo, wala asile kitu cho chote kilicho najisi; ....." - Waamuzi 13:14 (SUV - Msisitizo added), hii inaonyesha kuwa divai ni tofauti na mvinyo.

 

Kuhusu Harusi ya Kana kuna msimamo inayopishana ya original neno lililoandikwa hapo kwa kuonyesha maneno tofauti ya kigriki kutokana na kila kundi kuvutia upande wake. Ni vema wanao-quote hicho kigriki wakatusaidia kwa quote mstari wote na kuweka msisitizo kwa bold, underlining or Caps badala ya ku-pick a single or two words. Nikiwahi kuyapata kwa uhakika nitawajulisheni bila shaka.

 

Ki-english pia kina maneno machache ktk mambo mengi hili nalo la zao la mzabibu likiwemo.

Mathew.

 

2013/12/12 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>

Anthony Atanas,

[Seleli Edwin]

Mathew Maduhu my Kaka and all SG,

May I humbly  ask you  to  bear with me /my blessed mkeka and allow me to make my point AGAIN more clear-the same in some ways yet fashioned differently for positive purpose namely-kujifunza na kupata namna ya kufunza au kujibu mambo challenging ktk Neno hasa kwa sisi  tunapenda kufundisha na kwa kweli tumekua tuna fundisha Neno na kufundishwa hata kukutana na hoja nzito toka kwa Wanaotusikiliza au sisi wenyewe kuwakaba Waalimu wetu ktk seminar zile zenye tamu na nzuri zenye uhuru wa kuuliza maswali na majibu na kujifunza hasa Neno, ku-dig kwelikweli hapana mchezo  na si zile za kutishana au kulazimishia tu baada ya seminar, Mhubiri/Mwl... tuombeeeeeee then over and out, wanadamu tawanyika to home or wherever his/her kibanda is,kwisha kazi!!!

Kwanza,  u can be 100% sure kua kwa kua Mimi nimekua msisitizaji Mkubwa na mtu wa challenge kuwahimiza Watu kua SI njema sana  na wala si professionalism/smartness/dedication kuanza kuchangia jambo wakati hujachukua time and kutumia energy(show seriousness) kusoma KWANZA yaliyopo NDIPO utoe yako ili ku-ensure relevance na connectivity, otherwise Mtu atatia aibu kidogo kuzuka tu bila kujua yaliyopo hence kama nimehubiri/sisitiza iyo quality sana kwa Wasomaji na Waandishaji hasa SG, ni rahisi kabisa kuamini kua NI LAZIMA nilisoma mchango wako na ndio maana nilifurahi kupata kitu kipya ingawa kikanipa maswali/hamu tena ya kutaka kujua zaidii na nikasema toka debate hii ianze umekuja na kipya kua kuna DIVAI na MVINYO-huo mshangao wangu shows kweli nimesoma kwa macho makubwa kabisa and I Edwin Kulwa Seleli does most of the time, contribute on a topic  BAADA ya kuisoma.If it happens I do without, be sure I will do it  very smartly so that I connect to the main thing bila kurudia-rudia au sema mambo as if hayajasemwa na wengine.

Pili, kutokana wewe kuniuliza kua kama nimepata muda wa kusoma mchango wako, ndipo nikakumbuka pia ktk jibu langu kwako, mimi pia nilikuuliza/seme kua. pengine umesoma mikeka yote-it was diplomatic way of asking u kama ulisoma KWANZA  and in your case..kusoma kwanza YOTE maana umekuta tumeenda sana ktk debate hii...nililenga uwe umeona hili lifuatalo ktk hoja no 3 hapo chini-maana majibu yako kwangu , it doesn't seem ulizingatia mchango wangu closely kwa kua nili-spot issues ambazo nilitarajia ungezi-address wakati wa jibu lako la sasa

Tatu, nilichokusudia sana uone toka hoja no. 2 pale juu ni ukweli huu toka sorces kadhaa..Sisi leo Waswahili na Wao wa jana  Waingereza, wote tume-tafsiri Biblia ktk lugha zetu toka lugha zilizotumika wakati wa Agano la Kale na Jipya yaani Kiebrania, Aramaic and Kiyunani. Hi ni sawa na kusema, waliokua Waebrania ambao Waliandika Biblia -Agano la Kale eg  Musa anapoambiwa aandike-Kutoka.34:27, aliandika kwa lugha yake ya native bila shaka ie Kiebrania  na wengine waliofuata, ingawa sura chache za Yeremia, Ezra,Daniel-ziliandikwa kwa ki-Aramaic. Kwa Agano Jipya-Waandishi walitumia lugha Aramaic na Ki-Greek-an ordinary one si ile classical ya Waandishi scholars kama akina Plato and Aristotle. Sasa tokana na ukweli andiko hili la Yoh.2:1-11 Arusi ya Kana-Neno linalotumika hapo kuhusu icho kilichotengenezwa na Bwana kama mchango wa kwanza wa Patrick Kamera-ndio maana nilitilia shaka kama ulisoma MIKEKA YOTE dot to dot ingawa ulisema ulijitahidi kuisoma Mikeka-a techical statement anyway yet lovely, ni la KiGreek hili..οἶνον oinon ambalo tafsria yake kwa to Kiingereza-lugha kubwa na iliyofanyiwa utafiti kwa decades kabla ya Kiswahili-imetumia Neno WINE- na unaweza kua na uhakika kua, kama baadhi ya Wanaotumia lugha  ya Kiingereza ni Mataifa kama USA, UK, New Zealand, Australia, Canada na uko si tu kuna Wataalamu waliokubuhu wa ajabu wa lugha na tafsiri zake na lakini kati yao, wapo waliookoka kabisa, ambao wangekua makini sana KUFA NA KUPONA kuhakikisha, maana ya Neno la Mungu Baba yao/yetu haipotoshwi,  basi SI rahisi kufanyike kosa la tafsiri kwa wao kutafsri οἶνον oinon kua WINE-pombe na kumbe ilipaswa kua juice ya zabibu!!!! au sasa kwa mchango wako kwamba ni divai

Nne, sasa kama tutasema, Neno la Kiswahil ''divai'' ndio sahihi na la Kiingereza ''wine''-pombe si sawa kwa maana ya kile kilitengenezwa/badilishwa into... siku ya Arusi, then maswali haya, unayajibuje Kaka Mkubwa Mathew na any SG hapa:

1.  Mwandishi aliyekuwepo na kuona live Yesu alichofanya na akiwa aidha wa lugha ile wakati huo au alijua lugha iliyotumika na akatuandikia  kwa lugha yake iyo au lugha aliyoijua sana ya wakati wake kua icho alichokiona Yesu amekifanya maana yeye alikuwepo ni οἶνον oinon = wine=pombe na sisi leo ambao hatukuwepo na tumetafsiriwa toka Kizungu bila shaka, tusema ni divai, nani yuko sahihi?

2: Lugha ipi ni ina usahihi mkubwa na tafiti za kutosha mpaka kuja kutafsri sahihi Maneno ya Mungu toka lugha asili kati ya Kiingereza kilichosema ile iliyotengenezwa Arusi ya Kana ni Wine-pombe na Kiswahili kinachosema ni divai-pombe-less? Kama ni Kiingereza ndio lugha kubwa kwa vigezo vingi tu, kwa hiyo neno la Kiingereza kua alitengeneza Wine ni sawa-close or exacty to accuracy na wala si divai, Confirm?

3...Ukizingatia hayo yote, huoni kua ni salama zaidi Tunapowakataza Watu kunywa-si kulewa na kuwafokea/karipia against kugusa chupa za bia, shampeni, Marta nk, creti, well tuongeze hata tunapowapiga marufuku kufanya kazi TbL, Sigara kampuni, Tume/NGO za Ukimwi maana uko watahimiza kugawa condoms na  au shauri/hubiri  Wanadamu kua wakishindwa kujizuia, wapate mmoja Mpenzi-not wife forever, au hata kuwakanya kutokunywa supu bar kwamba yote hayo ni dhambi kali izo au dhambi kama dhambi nyingine, si bora tukatumia njia  niliyo suggest toka mwanzo kabisa  wa Mchango wangu na nikairudia-rudia kwamba, tukikutana na tunaowahubiria makini au wadadisi na tukawapa nafasi ya kuuliza maswali na wakatu-tait kwamba je Yesu alitengeneza nini hasa Arusi ya Kana?(labda kama tuwazime/zimia Mic na kuwakaliza chini kwa nguvu au hekima au kwa biti kali la kuwatishia kua swali lao wanaweza kufuru Mungu/Roho Mtakatifu na kutupwa tikitiki kule fire), si tusema tu kua, MAMBO HAYO HATA KAMA TUNAYAPIGA MARUKUFU na HUWEZI YAPATA YAKIWA NA KAULI MOJA AU YA WAZI KTK NENO, lakini kama Watu wa Mungu au Viongozi wao, tunakusudia mema, thus, tutakua tumefanya vema tu Kama Musa alivyowatungia by-laws yake kama Kiongozi wao- kwa sababu ya shingo zao ngumu, aliwaruhusu kuwapa taraka na kuwatimua Wake zao-Marco.10:1-12-IT WAS NOT GOD'S PLAN/WORD-see mistari ya 6-9 ipi plan-Neno la Mungu-Main Law originali na kama Paul alivyoweka sheria kadhaa eg  Nasema hili wala si Amri ya Bwana-1Wakor.7:25 au Simpi Mwanamke ruksa ya kunena-1Timo.2:11-12-IT WAS NOT GOD'S PLAN coz HE FILLS HOLY SPIRIT, LOVES,VALUES, GIFTS AND USES ALL he'z/she'z  EQUALLY.

Press on and indeed keep on digging snr. brother Maduhu Mathew.

I love this Patrick K spirit of humblenes...''Tuendelee Kujifunza...right? Amen.

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/13 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>

[Fredrick Marandu]

Haleluya!

------------------------------

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 6:34 AM PST iqualiptus malle wrote:

>Alleluia!
>Hongereni woote hapa kwa juhudi ya kujifunza.
>
>Asanteni Patrick na Edwin Selelii kwa "kujaribu kuyajibu" maswali
>niliyoweka hapo awali JAPO NIMEBAKI NA "sehemu ya MASWALI YANGU".
>

>Edwin Selelii, umesema "*I doubt kama umesoma 'Mikeka' yote !!!!!!*", je

>wadhani hiyo mikeka ina majibu? Hata yale umeweka siyo majibu yake japo
>umejitahidi kujaribu.
>Hebu angalia jibu lako kwenye swali la kwanza;
>..."Je Yesu anaweza toa pombe(WINE) kwa Watu?"-Sikuwahi ona Yesu "akigawa"

>pombe kwa watu labda wewe utujibu kuwa umeona wapi Yesu "*akigawa*" pombe
>kwa watu ILA nimewahi kuona mara nyingi Yesu "*akitoa pombe*" kwa watu nao

>watu hao wakibaki huru mbali na pombe hizo.
>
>Patrick Kamera na Edwin Selelii, hebu tuthibitishie kila mmoja binafsi
>IMANI YAKO YENYE MATENDO kama wewe umewahi kutii maandiko "kwa kutoa sadaka
>ya pombe/kileo" kwenye ibada yoyote imhusuyo YWH tangu uwe chini ya jua.
>
>Majibu Mengine ambayo ndugu Selelii umeandika sidhani kama itakuwa busara
>kuyachambua, ila yakisomwa tena na tena yanajitosheleza kupata "kusudi",

>Japo hili kwa kiasi fulani liko karibu na jibu *"**Wengine ni kwa kua

>wanaumwa, wengine ni kinywaji cha kawaida kama vinywaji vingine, wengine ni
>sehemu ya chakula, wengine burudani tu na kwa kufanya ivyo wanapitilizia

>mpaka kua drank from drinking"*

>Hapo kwenye bolded red ndipo kwenye kudi kubwa, kaama alivyosema ndugu
>Patrick hapa;

>"*ni hapana siyo wote wanywao pombe wanafanya hivyo kwa ajili ya afya zao

>au kujitibu ni wachache sana, wengi wanakunywa pombe kwa kupenda kwao

>wenyewe.*" Mimi ninaongeza...kwa kupenda wao wenyewe na kwa raha zao
>wenyewe *sawa na uongozi wa mioyo yao*"

>Kumbuka Neno limeagiza kuwa chochote tufanyacho kwa neno ama tendo kiwe ni
>kwa utukufu wa Bwana na kwa jina lake, so nsijui kama nishangazwe ama
>nisishangazwe kuona mtu akishika chupa/bilauri yake ya kileo ama akimuita
>Yesu ama akishukuru kwake kwa kumbarikia na kukitakasa kinywaji na
>kuendelea kukinywa.
>

>Patick Kamera; umemalizia hivi "*Kwa habari ya hilo suluhisho la unywaji wa

>pombe, labda nikuulize mpendwa unasimamia andiko lipi kutoa suluhisho hilo?
>Kama huna andiko la kusimamia bali unayalazimisha Maandiko kama ambavyo
>umefanya basi suluhisho lako litabakia kuwa ni kitisho kisicho na mashiko

>kabisa...*."
>*Je wajua kama wazinzi, waongo, walafi, walevi, waasherati, waoa wake
>wengi....husimamia maandiko gani? JIBU NI WANAYO MAANDIKO TENA MENGI.*

>Si kila kusimamia andiko ni sahihi, japo mimi maandiko ninayo meengi sana
>kuhusu uniulizalo, baadhi ni haya hapa chini:-
>Kwanza; IMANI PASIPO MATENDO IMEKUFA- James 2:14-26
>Pili; TUYAJARIBU MAMBO YOTE NA KULISHIKA LILILO JEMA....-1Thes 5:21
>Tatu; TUZIJARIBU ROHO-1John 4:1
>Nne; USILIHARIBU HEKALU.... NAWE UTAHARIBIWA...-1Cor 3:17
>

> - Hivyo kama unahimiza unywaji pombe ambao huutekelezi "imani yako

> inakuwa mfu". Ukisema tuhakiki kama pombe ni safi ama si safi lazima
> KUFANYA TENDO la kuipitisha chujioni ili tuone kama itapita bila
> filtrate(uchafu).

> - Utajuaje kama jambo ni jema? Kwa kujifunza (Kusoma, kuona toka kwa

> wengine n.k). Kifupi huhitaji kuvumbua tena tairi, tengeneza tokea wengine
> wamefika= Huhitaji kuanza kuijaribu pombe kama ukiinywa utalewa /
> utaweweseka / utaharisha / upako utaongezeka / utajisikia unapaa ama
> vinginevyo BALI jifunze kwa wale waliotoka kwenye "kifungo hicho"

> - Kama kuna kitu tuna mashaka nacho twaagizwa "*tuijaribu roho iliyo
> nyuma yake*" Hapa mwingine atauliza, kwa namna gani? nami nina swali

> hilo hilo, wote twahitaji kujibiwa.

> - Kama sayansi ya pombe/ kileo inasema madhara yake ni makubwa kwenye

> mwili, kwanini kuliharibu hekalu la Bwana? Yeye Bwana amesema atamharibu
> yule aliharibuye hekalu hilo (Yaani miili yetu) si kwa pombe tu.
>
>Pamoja na kajimkeka kangu hapa ninaomba niweke mambo mawili muhimu ya
>nyongeza.

>Kuna msemo wa Kiswahili usemao *"aisifuye mvua imemnyea" *nami niweke hapa
>msemo wangu kuwa "*akisifuye kilevi kimemlevya*".

>
>Mimi pamoja na waKristo wengine waliozaliwa mara ya pili hapa na kwingineko
>duniani, tumeona familia zetu, ndugu zetu na watu wengine ama wa karibu
>nasi ama mbali walivyoteswa na huyo "kileo/kilevi".
>Kweli tukisema kila mtu alete ushuhuda wa matokeo ya bilauri ama chupa
>mojamoja zilizokuwa zikikubatiwa na wapendwa wetu wengine humuhumu mtalia
>na kutubu.
>

>*Kuhusu maandiko na mambo ya kunukuu (kusimamia);*

>Awali niliainisha "si kila kunukuu ama kusimamia maandiko ni sahihi".
>Mfano rahisi ni; Kwa wale waliowahi kwenda kwa waganga (wanga) na wale
>wanaotibu kwa kutumia roho wa ufalme wa Shetani wanajua fika kuwa baadhi ya
>wanga hao huwa ni vitabu vya dini ikiwamo biblia (maandiko matakatifu).
>Ufikapo hapo unapigwa swali la faster, wewe ni mKristo ama Muisilamu ama...
>Ukishasema mimi ni mKristo mara kitabu chako cha maandiko matakatifu ya
>dini yako anakichukua na kuanza kukusomea..."Mungu
>anasema...blah...blah...blah" then tiba zinaendelea. Unajua kwanini
>wanasoma maandiko?
>
>

> - Watu hutoa sadaka za kuchinja ngombe, kondoo, mbuzi n.k kwa kusimamia
> maandiko....Utasikia "...*Ibrahimu, Waisreli*..."
> - Watu huoa wake wengi kwa kusimamia maandiko.....Utasikia "..
> *Suleiman...*."
> - Hufanya fitna, chuki....na mengine mengi ambayo maandiko yamekataza

> HUKU WAKITUMIA MAANDIKO HAYO HAYO KUHALALISHA

>WAKIFANYACHO....Utasikia "*Hata
> injili inatakiwa kuwafikia watu hata kwa fitna*..."

>
>
>NOTE: Maandiko hayana UHAI bali ROHO ndio HUYAHUISHA, hivyo kila mtu
>anaweza kuyatumia maandiko hata hao wa ufalme wa pili kama baba yao
>alivyotumia kumtega Yesu pale nyikani akiwa kwenye maobi. KWA UFUPI NI
>TUSIBABAISHWE NA MAANDIKO YANAYOSIMAMIWA BALI USAHIHI WAKE JUU YA JAMBO
>HUSIKA KWA NGUVU YA ROHO WA KRISTO.
>Kama tukienenda kwa Roho hatuwi watumwa wa dhambi bali wa sheria ya huyo
>Roho wa Kristo.
>
>
>Yesu awatunze!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>2013/12/13 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>
>
>> Edwin,
>> Ulipata muda ukapitia comments zangu kuhusiana na tofauti kati ya MVINYO
>> na DIVAI. Yesu aligeuza maji yakawa divai sio mvinyo!!!

>> Kwa habari ya Mvinyo (Kilaji) - Hebu pitia maandiko haya;* "Mvinyo
>> hudhihaki, kileo huleta ugomvi; Na akosaye kwa vitu hivyo hana hekima*."

>> - Mithali 20:1 (SUV - Msisitizo added) - Mstari huu unaonyesha mvinyo
>> hufanya nini na kilaji huleta nini.

>> Pia andiko hili; *"Usiwe miongoni mwao wanywao mvinyo; Miongoni mwao

>> walao nyama kwa pupa. Kwa maana mlevi na mlafi huingia umaskini, Na

>> utepetevu humvika mtu nguo mbovu". *- Mithali 23:20-21. (SUV - Misitizo
>> added) Kama ukisoma btwn words utaona kuwa neno *Kwa maana *(mst 23)

>> - Kiblia ni ngumu sana kua na statement ya moja kwa moja kusema

>> kunywa Wine ni dhambi labda kulewa, why? Maandiko yanaonyesha side 2.
>>
>>

>> - Kama Mtu anaongea kwa max finality kua Kunywa pombe ni dhambi,

>> anajiingiza ktk mgogoro mkubwa sana Kimandiko na pia ni sawa na pia
>> kumwambia Yesu alitengeneza ''dhambi''-Arusi ya Kana au alimwambia mwanae
>> Timothy anywe ''dhambi''
>>
>>

>> - Na kung'ang'ania kua nidhambi, wakati anajua kabisa hana na hawezi

>> kupata A-Z statement/Neno ktk Neno, ni wazi, atakua anaingiza man-made by
>> Laws ambazo zaweza kua sawa na kinasaidia Wanadamu kufikia malengo fulani
>> but ni vema Mhusika akakiri kwanza kua hicho ni chake/man-made kama Paul
>> alivyokua jasiri kuandika kua, hili ni MIMI wala sina amri ya Bwana-very
>> honest and open-what a nice mpendwa and leader was he! wow! you see, Hakua
>> na haja ya kung'ang'aniza kila kitu iwe kiroho kikariiii! alisema live,
>> hili nalisema Mimi si Yesu
>>
>>

>> - Kwa msingi huo, Kwa miaka mingi, si tu andiko la Arusi ya Kana

>> huwezi sikia lina hubiriwa but also hata kufuatilia kujua hasa ni
>> Muujiza/Ishara gani ya kwanza Yesu kufanya duniani, inazimwa kiaina, yaani
>> utadhani Mungu ana shida sana Watu wakijua kweli iyo wakati Yeye alifanya
>> iandikwe
>>
>>

>> - Katika kuwaongoza Wanadamu, imetokea Viongozi wa Kiroho wakapata

>> key-privilege ka kuweka taratibu zao hata kama kwa kweli, SI ZA MUNGU wala
>> hazimo ktk Neno( lakini nitakushitua leo-tulia kwanza acha kukemea ovyo
>> ovyo) bado Mungu alizirithia tu maana SI KILICHOTOKA KWA MTU-kiongozi HATA
>> KAMA SI CHA MUNGU- NI DHAMBI!... mmenipata lugha iyo nadhani. Nitoe Mfano ..

>> *Marko.10:1-12* Yesu anasema Musa aliwaruhusu kuwaandikia taraka na

>> kuwatimua Wake zao kwa sababu ya ugumu wa mioyo yao LAKINI TOKA ZAMANI
>> HAIKUA IVYO-manake anasema, toka zamani MPANGO WA MUNGU- Neno la Mungu ni
>> Mtu anamwacha Baba na Mama na kuunganishwa, nao ni mwili mmoJa, hakuna
>> kutenganishwa na Mwanadamu
>>
>>

>> - Kwa mantiki iyo, hata kama hatuna finality ya vitu kama kuvuta

>>> Kwakweli, John na walio upande wako, *debate/Majadiliano haya

>>> yalikwisha zamani mlipokubali kua alichofanya siku ya Arus ni water into
>>> Wine( tumia Kiingereza iyo maana naona neno Kiswahili- Pombe linawatia

>>> munkari kweli wa kuanza kufyatuka kukemea* 24/7.

>--
>Regards,
>Malle Iqualiptus

[Alberto Othuon]

I think some time the message get lost here.when Jesus turn water into wine it was not about wine but it was about the greatness of God being able to do anything. I don't remember anybody getting drunk out that water which Jesus turn into wine. Amina amina watumishi

Alberto! 

Sent from my Cricket smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: iqualiptus malle <iqua...@gmail.com>
Date: 12/14/2013 9:34 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: strictl...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: QOTW - Is it a sin for a Christian to drink alcohol?

Alleluia!

Hongereni woote hapa kwa juhudi ya kujifunza.

Asanteni Patrick na Edwin Selelii kwa "kujaribu kuyajibu" maswali niliyoweka hapo awali JAPO NIMEBAKI NA "sehemu ya MASWALI YANGU".

Edwin Selelii, umesema "I doubt kama  umesoma 'Mikeka' yote !!!!!!", je wadhani hiyo mikeka ina majibu? Hata yale umeweka siyo majibu yake japo umejitahidi kujaribu. 

Hebu angalia jibu lako kwenye swali la kwanza;

..."Je Yesu anaweza toa  pombe(WINE) kwa Watu?"-Sikuwahi ona Yesu "akigawa" pombe kwa watu labda wewe utujibu kuwa umeona wapi Yesu "akigawa" pombe kwa watu ILA nimewahi kuona mara nyingi Yesu "akitoa pombe" kwa watu nao watu hao wakibaki huru mbali na pombe hizo.

Patrick Kamera na Edwin Selelii, hebu tuthibitishie kila mmoja binafsi IMANI YAKO YENYE MATENDO kama wewe umewahi kutii maandiko "kwa kutoa sadaka ya pombe/kileo" kwenye ibada yoyote imhusuyo YWH tangu uwe chini ya jua.

Majibu Mengine ambayo ndugu Selelii umeandika sidhani kama itakuwa busara kuyachambua, ila yakisomwa tena na tena yanajitosheleza kupata "kusudi", Japo hili kwa kiasi fulani liko karibu na jibu "Wengine ni kwa kua wanaumwa, wengine ni kinywaji cha kawaida kama vinywaji vingine, wengine ni sehemu ya chakula, wengine burudani tu na kwa kufanya ivyo wanapitilizia mpaka kua drank from drinking"

Hapo kwenye bolded red ndipo kwenye kudi kubwa, kaama alivyosema ndugu Patrick hapa;

"ni hapana siyo wote wanywao pombe wanafanya hivyo kwa ajili ya afya zao au kujitibu ni wachache sana, wengi wanakunywa pombe kwa kupenda kwao wenyewe." Mimi ninaongeza...kwa kupenda wao wenyewe na kwa raha zao wenyewe sawa na uongozi wa mioyo yao"

Kumbuka Neno limeagiza kuwa chochote tufanyacho kwa neno ama tendo kiwe ni kwa utukufu wa Bwana na kwa jina lake, so nsijui kama nishangazwe ama nisishangazwe kuona mtu akishika chupa/bilauri yake ya kileo ama akimuita Yesu ama akishukuru kwake kwa kumbarikia na kukitakasa kinywaji na kuendelea kukinywa.

Patick Kamera; umemalizia hivi "Kwa habari ya hilo suluhisho la unywaji wa pombe, labda nikuulize mpendwa unasimamia andiko lipi kutoa suluhisho hilo? Kama huna andiko la kusimamia bali unayalazimisha Maandiko kama ambavyo umefanya basi suluhisho lako litabakia kuwa ni kitisho kisicho na mashiko kabisa...."

Je wajua kama wazinzi, waongo, walafi, walevi, waasherati, waoa wake wengi....husimamia maandiko gani? JIBU NI WANAYO MAANDIKO TENA MENGI.

Si kila kusimamia andiko ni sahihi, japo mimi maandiko ninayo meengi sana kuhusu uniulizalo, baadhi ni haya hapa chini:-

Kwanza; IMANI PASIPO MATENDO IMEKUFA- James 2:14-26

Pili; TUYAJARIBU MAMBO YOTE NA KULISHIKA LILILO JEMA....-1Thes 5:21

Tatu; TUZIJARIBU ROHO-1John 4:1

Nne; USILIHARIBU HEKALU.... NAWE UTAHARIBIWA...-1Cor 3:17

• Hivyo kama unahimiza unywaji pombe ambao huutekelezi "imani yako inakuwa mfu". Ukisema tuhakiki kama pombe ni safi ama si safi lazima KUFANYA TENDO la kuipitisha chujioni ili tuone kama itapita bila filtrate(uchafu).
  

• Utajuaje kama jambo ni jema? Kwa kujifunza (Kusoma, kuona toka kwa wengine n.k). Kifupi huhitaji kuvumbua tena tairi, tengeneza tokea wengine wamefika= Huhitaji kuanza kuijaribu pombe kama ukiinywa utalewa / utaweweseka / utaharisha / upako utaongezeka / utajisikia unapaa ama vinginevyo BALI jifunze kwa wale waliotoka kwenye "kifungo hicho"

• Kama kuna kitu tuna mashaka nacho twaagizwa "tuijaribu roho iliyo nyuma yake" Hapa mwingine atauliza, kwa namna gani? nami nina swali hilo hilo, wote twahitaji kujibiwa.

• Kama sayansi ya pombe/ kileo inasema madhara yake ni makubwa kwenye mwili, kwanini kuliharibu hekalu la Bwana? Yeye Bwana amesema atamharibu yule aliharibuye hekalu hilo (Yaani miili yetu) si kwa pombe tu.

Pamoja na kajimkeka kangu hapa ninaomba niweke mambo mawili muhimu ya nyongeza.

Kuna msemo wa Kiswahili usemao "aisifuye mvua imemnyea" nami niweke hapa msemo wangu kuwa "akisifuye kilevi kimemlevya".

Mimi pamoja na waKristo wengine waliozaliwa mara ya pili hapa na kwingineko duniani, tumeona familia zetu, ndugu zetu na watu wengine ama wa karibu nasi ama mbali walivyoteswa na huyo "kileo/kilevi".

Kweli tukisema kila mtu alete ushuhuda wa matokeo ya bilauri ama chupa mojamoja zilizokuwa zikikubatiwa na wapendwa wetu wengine humuhumu mtalia na kutubu.

Kuhusu maandiko na mambo ya kunukuu (kusimamia);

Awali niliainisha "si kila kunukuu ama kusimamia maandiko ni sahihi".

Mfano rahisi ni; Kwa wale waliowahi kwenda kwa waganga (wanga) na wale wanaotibu kwa kutumia roho wa ufalme wa Shetani wanajua fika kuwa baadhi ya wanga hao huwa ni vitabu vya dini ikiwamo biblia (maandiko matakatifu). Ufikapo hapo unapigwa swali la faster, wewe ni mKristo ama Muisilamu ama... Ukishasema mimi ni mKristo mara kitabu chako cha maandiko matakatifu ya dini yako anakichukua na kuanza kukusomea..."Mungu anasema...blah...blah...blah" then tiba zinaendelea. Unajua kwanini wanasoma maandiko?

• Watu hutoa sadaka za kuchinja ngombe, kondoo, mbuzi n.k kwa kusimamia maandiko....Utasikia "...Ibrahimu, Waisreli..."
  
• Watu huoa wake wengi kwa kusimamia maandiko.....Utasikia "..Suleiman...."
  
• Hufanya fitna, chuki....na mengine mengi ambayo maandiko yamekataza HUKU WAKITUMIA MAANDIKO HAYO HAYO KUHALALISHA WAKIFANYACHO....Utasikia "Hata injili inatakiwa kuwafikia watu hata kwa fitna..."

NOTE: Maandiko hayana UHAI bali ROHO ndio HUYAHUISHA, hivyo kila mtu anaweza kuyatumia maandiko hata hao wa ufalme wa pili kama baba yao alivyotumia kumtega Yesu pale nyikani akiwa kwenye maobi. KWA UFUPI NI TUSIBABAISHWE NA MAANDIKO YANAYOSIMAMIWA BALI USAHIHI WAKE JUU YA JAMBO HUSIKA KWA NGUVU YA ROHO WA KRISTO.

Kama tukienenda kwa Roho hatuwi watumwa wa dhambi bali wa sheria ya huyo Roho wa Kristo.

Yesu awatunze!!!

2013/12/13 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>

Edwin,

Ulipata muda ukapitia comments zangu kuhusiana na tofauti kati ya MVINYO na DIVAI. Yesu aligeuza maji yakawa divai sio mvinyo!!!

Kwa habari ya Mvinyo (Kilaji) - Hebu pitia maandiko haya; "Mvinyo hudhihaki, kileo huleta ugomvi; Na akosaye kwa vitu hivyo hana hekima." - Mithali 20:1 (SUV - Msisitizo added) - Mstari huu unaonyesha mvinyo hufanya nini na kilaji huleta nini. 

Pia andiko hili; "Usiwe miongoni mwao wanywao mvinyo; Miongoni mwao walao nyama kwa pupa. Kwa maana mlevi na mlafi huingia umaskini, Na utepetevu humvika mtu nguo mbovu". - Mithali 23:20-21. (SUV - Misitizo added) Kama ukisoma btwn words utaona kuwa neno Kwa maana (mst 23) ninaonyesha kuwa matokeo ya kunywa mvinyo ni kulewa na matokeo ya kula nyama kwa pupa ni ulafi. Bado nina-search kupata products za zabibu na zilivyotumika kwenye maandiko mbali mbali ili kuzitofautisha japokuwa ki-english ni WINE kila sehemu.

 

Keep on digging

Mathew.

2013/12/12 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>

John  Rwezaura and all SG.

Shalom.

Nisikilizeni nitoe maoni yangu binafsi  haya:, ruksa kuyapinga au kuyakubali, yote ni mema tu na baraka bado.

Kwanza, mijadala ya wazi, uhuru na peupe kama hii, inafaa sana kwakua inazalisha bidii na hamu ya kusoma Neno na vyanzo vingine vya kupata maarifa kuhusu Neno na mambo ya Mungu, pia inasababisha wengi kupata ufahamu wa mambo kwa mara ya kwanza kabisa au ukweli wa upande wa pili ambao hukuwahi kujua au kuwaza kua upo, Na pia debate zikiwa kali ni tamu sana kwa sabubu zinafanya sasa wahusika watoe/watumie yaliyo ya ndani kabisa kuliko kuficha-ficha, ziwe ni mitizamo, hisia, karama, vipaji, huduma, shuhuda na uzoefu wa huduma na kutembea na Mungu na ikifika hapo, tegemea faida nyingi kuliko hasara kwa kua tutapata mengi mno

Pili, inasababisha Watu tufahamiane kwa ukwelii tukoje na hiyo ni baraka maana tukifahamiana  ki-artificial tu- haipendezi

Tatu, kuhusu topic, ningekua mimi John R na wenzako, ILI NISIJIKUTE KTK MATATIZO YA KUPAMBANA NA WANAFUNZI/KONDOO WADADISI KAMA MIE, KUWAKEMEA BURE NA KUWAFIKIRIA KUA UFAHAMU WAO MDOGO KUMBE WANA NEEMA PIA, ningejibu ivi kwa amani na ukweli kabisa na pia kwa HEKIMA ya ufahamu wa namna mambo yanavyoweza kuamuliwa/ endeshwa/wekwa kwa ajili ya kuongoza Watu wa Mungu

• Kiblia ni ngumu sana kua na statement ya moja kwa moja kusema kunywa Wine ni dhambi labda kulewa, why? Maandiko yanaonyesha side 2.

• Kama Mtu anaongea kwa max finality kua Kunywa pombe ni dhambi, anajiingiza ktk mgogoro mkubwa sana Kimandiko na pia ni sawa na pia kumwambia Yesu alitengeneza ''dhambi''-Arusi ya Kana au alimwambia mwanae Timothy anywe ''dhambi''
  

• Na kung'ang'ania kua nidhambi, wakati anajua kabisa hana na hawezi kupata A-Z statement/Neno ktk Neno, ni wazi, atakua anaingiza man-made by Laws ambazo zaweza kua sawa na kinasaidia Wanadamu kufikia malengo fulani  but ni vema Mhusika akakiri kwanza kua hicho ni chake/man-made kama Paul alivyokua jasiri kuandika kua, hili ni MIMI wala sina amri ya Bwana-very honest and open-what a nice mpendwa and leader was he!  wow! you see, Hakua na haja ya kung'ang'aniza kila kitu iwe kiroho kikariiii! alisema live, hili nalisema Mimi si Yesu

• Kwa msingi huo, Kwa miaka mingi, si tu andiko la Arusi ya Kana huwezi sikia lina hubiriwa but also hata kufuatilia kujua hasa ni Muujiza/Ishara gani ya kwanza Yesu kufanya duniani, inazimwa kiaina, yaani utadhani Mungu ana shida sana Watu wakijua kweli iyo wakati Yeye alifanya iandikwe

• Katika kuwaongoza Wanadamu, imetokea Viongozi wa Kiroho wakapata key-privilege ka kuweka  taratibu zao hata kama kwa kweli, SI ZA MUNGU wala hazimo ktk Neno( lakini nitakushitua leo-tulia kwanza acha kukemea ovyo ovyo) bado Mungu alizirithia tu maana SI KILICHOTOKA KWA MTU-kiongozi HATA KAMA SI CHA MUNGU- NI DHAMBI!... mmenipata lugha iyo nadhani. Nitoe Mfano ..Marko.10:1-12 Yesu anasema Musa aliwaruhusu kuwaandikia taraka na kuwatimua Wake zao kwa sababu ya ugumu wa mioyo yao LAKINI TOKA ZAMANI HAIKUA IVYO-manake anasema, toka zamani MPANGO WA MUNGU- Neno la Mungu ni  Mtu anamwacha Baba na Mama na kuunganishwa, nao ni mwili mmoJa, hakuna kutenganishwa na Mwanadamu

• Kwa mantiki iyo, hata kama hatuna finality ya vitu kama kuvuta sigara, kunywa pombe na yanayofanana na hayo kua ni dhambi, bado tulikatazwa na viongozi wetu si tu kunywa bali hata kubeba creti la bia kutumwa sigara na Baba yako mzazi, kuchangia arusi za ndugu zetu ambazo unajua kwa hakika watatumia pesa yako kwa kununua kilaji, kupita-pita karibu au kunywa supu bar, kwa sababu ya si ugumu wa mioyo bali urahisi wa kuingia majaribuni kwa kuzidiwa na hayo ambayo hata kama mwanzo wake si mbaya na hayajasemwa kua ni dhambi ila unapelekea madhara kadhaa, Kwa iyo Watumishi kusema kila kitu ni dhambi, bila sisi kuwahoji wameitoa ktk maandiko, ndio imetufikisha hapa tulipo leo ambapo kwa bidii binafsi tunaona yako mambo yalifanyika wakati wa Yesu-Arusi ya Kana ambayo aidha hatukuambiwa au tulizimwa kwa makaripio na makemeo  na macho makali ya kutengwa kanisani sasa yoyote ukifanya mchezo, Kwa hiyo kama vile Musa alivyotumia mamlaka yake kama Baba yao kiroho na kama alivyokua Paul kwa kuwaona  wanae na kuwawekea mambo/mashauri/maamuzi/systemz kadhaa za kufanya wawe safi zaidi, kuondoa matatizo,kutuepushia kunasa ndivyo lilivyo kwetu kwa swala la Wine na Watumishi walichoaamua na kutusimamia kwa hilo kwa namna na maana iyo kwa miaka na kumbuka hatukuruhusiwa kuhoji, wakisema, imetoka, ni Watumishi, over and out maana mpakwa mafuta wa Bwana katamka, kwisha!
  

Press on

[Levana]

Kaka Alberto Utukufu kwa yesu 

Sent from my iPhone

[Seleli Edwin]

Malle Iq,

 

Nilitilia shaka kama ulisoma mikeka kwanza-ukweli ni kwamba ningepaswa kukuambia moja moja kua HUKUSOMA!!!!!!!!! Why? Kati ya maswali yako 3 uliuliza ivi…’ Je sadaka ya kutoa kwa Bwana yaweza kuwa pombe?’ wakati tayari lilishajibiwa na maandiko na Patrick!!!!!, so why uliuliza tena? you see now! HUKUSOMA ok? Ni vema kukubali  na kua mkweli man, inabariki zaidi kuliko kuzungusha na kutetea jambo hukufanya and u know that very well!

 

Kwamba ktk mikeka yangu, haina majibu! Mmh! kweli? ha ha ha , sidhani, ume-dismiss tu hutaki kusema ukweli kua, tumeyamaliza kabisa! La sadaka ya pombe, nilikujibu kwa swali-ni Biblical way ya kujibu hoja-unakumbuka Yesu kwa sabubu za msingi kuna wakati alikataa kujibu au alijibu kwa swali. Mimi kukujibu kwa kukuambia Je Yesu anaweza toa/fanyia/tengenezea Watu Wine? I meant ufikiri kua kitokacho kwa A-B ni Utoaji, Yesu kuwatengenezea/badilishia maji kua wine ni Utoaji ule, au nini? kwani walienda kununua ilipokwisha? No wonder basi maandiko umepewa na Patrick ya Mungu kabisa kusema watu walete sadaka za wine, hapo je? Sasa unganisha jibu langu la kiswali kwa swali lako plus jibu la Patrick kimaandiko, say the truth, swali lako halijajibiwa? Mmh! si ukubali tu kua  its over, unless u prove otherwise.

 

La pili on Kanisa kua na kiwanda cha pombe, nilijibu honestly kua haliwezi ila nikakupa angalizo pana kua ingawa hatuwezi yet tunafaidi matunda take! Nilitaka ujue na pia ikupe balance unajibuje hiyo hoja? Huku tunasema No kujihusisha moja kwa moja na kiwanda cha bia na uku tunakula ile mbaya matunda ya bia yenyewe sisi kama Wanadamu wa Nchi hii tokana na mapato ya TRA, sasa wewe ilitakiwa ndio uicheze ngoma iyo, unabalansi vipi, unafundishaje icho au unasema nini ukiulizwa icho! Yaani where is rationale of a No and Yes to the same enemy-Pombe Kiwanda? You see?

 

La tatu on  wanao kunywa why, nikajibu pia sincerely, wako wanaokunywa kama tiba eg Timotheo, wapo kama drink ya kawaida au part ya chakula na mila na wapo wanakunywa kama starehe na wanapitiliza mpaka kulewa, mbona ni majibu ya ukweli na mazuri sana hayo au? unakataaje kirahisi tu ivyo au ni ili mradi unakataa tu bila ku-prove wrong my majibu kuliko kusema tu kua  in my mikeka, no majibu au nimejitahidi tu ila umebaki na baadhi!!!!!!!mmmh! ha ha ha ha mpendwa bwanaaa!

 

Hii ni great reasoning na mafuta, good man,  I like this and bila kukabana ktk debate hii, ningeipata wapi hii kitumbuA tamu sana hii…’’ Umeona wapi Yesu "akigawa" pombe kwa watu ILA nimewahi kuona mara nyingi Yesu "akitoa pombe"…. Excellent blessed brain kama hii ya ma meen fire-fire Envengelist Anthony ya ..’’ Kunywa pombe ni kama kushika masharubu ya  rijamaa’’ ….ha ha ha that was lovey mpakal leo nacheka mpaka basi, jamani,  na hii ni great statement/saying I like it… "aisifuye mvua imemnyea" na msemo wangu ni "akisifuye kilevi kimemlevya.. dah! Wapendwa mkifunguka, raha na baraka sana, mkijibanabana na kutegea-tegeana,mnatunyima sana baraka wazee  na wadada wa kazi!

 

Nonetheless, swali lako hapo, kua nionyeshe wapi Yesu aligawa—nitumie Kiingereza iwe polite ili msikeme ‘majamaa’’ na ‘’madude’’ zigzangly..Wine, jibu funga kazi ni John.2:1-11! Unabisha? Lete hoja  kukataa iyo uone mziki wake utakavyokugomea. Kama hakugawa-kimantiki nilimaanisha aliwapa/sababisha MAJI-WINE-nadhani ulidaka mantiki si maneno-neno tu au herufi, maji alibadili maji into ‘makombaa’’- Kinyamwezi au-‘uji’ kwa Kiswahili or ‘nyuka ma maberee’- Kijaruo! Which is true now, wine or porridge?

 

Statement zako za mwisho hizi safi...’’ NI TUSIBABAISHWE NA MAANDIKO YANAYOSIMAMIWA BALI USAHIHI WAKE JUU YA JAMBO HUSIKA KWA NGUVU YA ROHO WA KRISTO.Kama tukienenda kwa Roho hatuwi watumwa wa dhambi bali wa sheria ya huyo Roho wa Kristo.

 

Ila maswali ni haya naomba majibu/inputs zako kwa upendo kabisa,,be free, usimute!

 

 

Unadhani usahihi kwa  andiko la Yoh.2:1-12 kwa msisitiozo wako hapo ni upi? Notice: Neno USAHIHI! Ok, tell me/us.

 

Unadhani kuenenda kwa roho kwa mujibu kwa debate hii na andiko hilo la Yoh.2:1-11 ni kusema uwongo tunapolihubiri, tuchengeshe kweli, kupiga marufuku kulificha, kutishia washirika wasiliulize-ulize, tulifiche-fiche au tusema ukweli tupu ktk hekima ya kuuwakilisha ukweli huo maana Neno  si uwongo?

 

 

Yes kabisa kama ulivyo-note na ndio maana tunakazana kufanya fafanuzi ili kuyatumia maandiko kihalali/kwa usahihi-2Tim.2:15c na  uku Neno likiwa limejaa ktk hekima yote Wakolos.3:16a

 

Press on,

 

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/14 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>

Mathew Maduhu my Kaka,

Nimesoma jibu lako la sasa,  na feel tone/waves kabisaaaa, Nina perceive umesoma tena kwa taratibu inputs na kuONA seriously and honestly sisi kama Wahubiri/Waalumu/Wanenaji au generally wagawanya Mkate wa UZIMA, tuna challenge tena si changa but fire ya kui-keep on digging kuhusu Muujiza HUU WA KWANZA KABISA KTK HUDUMA YA BWANA DUNIANI

Tuna options mbili mainly:

Moja: Kukubali UKWELI  wa kilichotokea Kana na Mungu akataka kiwe reccorded live ivyo ivyo bila kumung'unya mung'unya kuhusu ishara aliyotenda Mwanae kisha kutafuta hekima/busara/akili/ufahamu/technique ya kuiwakilisha iyo kweli kwa hekima tuliyopewa kama viongozi juu ya Watu wetu/wa Mungu ili kweli iyo iyo isiwe abused

Pili: Kupiga marufuku/kemea/amua/panga utaratibu au tunga by laws kwa nia njema tu kuwalinda Watu wetu ili wasifanye/tumia/sogelea mambo/vitu ambavyo kama vilivyo si dhambi au baadhi hata vikutumiwa si dhambi ila vina nguvu ya kumfanya mtu hapitilize au ajisahau mfano nimeshasema kunywa, kupenda-penda supu ktk bar, kukaa karibu na mahall ya sinema na makasino, wasichana na Wavulana kuongozana baada ya mkesha, binti kumtembelea mchumba wake alone na mambo kama hayo ambayo, may not be necessarily sin lakini any time T yanakamilisha game

Otherwiese, keep on digging brother and bring what you will have kuhusu Mvinyo Vs. Divai ila i can see utapata bonge la challenge to establish that truth kulingana na kweli nyingi za maandiko na nyingine tayari Patrick amekudokeza- na kama Kiswahili kinaweza kua na maneno muafaka-rich in terminologies kuliko Kiingereza katika kuelezea ya Neno-ilo ni jambo jipya nitapenda kujifunza kwa kweli kwa kiroho safi ingawa kweli hata Kiingereza ukilinganisha na lugha nyingine za zama au zilizofanyiwa kazi decades or may be karne, kinaweza zidiwa anointing pia.

Press on

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/13 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>

EDWIN,na SG Wote Shalom,

[Mathew Maduhu]

Edwin, Patrick na SG Wote Salamu,

Naomba nirudie tena kuandika kuwa nimejitahidi kusoma mikeka iliyotangulia. Na nichokiona mimi tatizo sio hayo maandiko yanayo - "kataza/ruhusu", bali ni matumizi ya neno lenyewe WINE kwa Ki-English, YAYIN kwa Ki-Jewish  na OINON kwa Ki-Greek. So we can quote any verse we want to quote but we must make sure that which kind of wine/yayin/oinon is referred there, vinginevyo ni majanga.

 

Patrick umeuliza kuhusu Walawi 10:9, Divai iliyoandikwa hapa ni kinywaji kisichokuwa na kileo. Amri hii ina condition "... hapo mwingiapo ndani ya hema ya kukutania, ili kwamba msife;......"  Pia mstari mwingine unakataza hata kula zabibu zenyewe (Waamuzi 13:14). Kukatazwa kunywa au kula zabibu haina maana kuwa kitu hicho ni kilaji. 

 

Kuhusu Bwana Yesu kuitwa mlafi na mlevi (Math 19:11 & Luka 7:34) hili nililitolea ufafanuzi huko nyuma. Kwa kifupi ni kuwa Yesu hakuwa mlafi wala mlevi. Kwani walimwona anakula nini mpaka aitwe mlafi? Wanaotetea hoja ya kunywa pombe wamechukua hii ya pili kama kigezo kuwa walimwona anakunywa pombe ndiyo maana wakasema mlevi!!! (sounds logical eeh???). Kwani alikula nini ndiyo ukaitwa mlafi. Kwa ulewa wangu ni kuwa Israel walikuwa na mtazamo na vigezo vyao walivyokuwa navyo kuhusu Masihi ajaye.

 

Patrick, kama divai iliyo njema kwa tafsiri yako ni kilaji ..... Cha kukushauri hapo ni ku-take time kuangalia original language zinasema nini kuhusu divai njema. Unajua wanaotetea kuwa kunywa kilaji sio  dhambi ame-quote (kuonyesha Yesu alikuwa mnywaji wa pombe) ile karamu ya mwisho (Sikukuu ya mikate isiyotiwa CHACHU) kuwa kile kikombe kilikuwa ni mvinyo (pombe) sasa unajiliza swali dogo why bother mikate iwe haina chachu lakini kinywaji kiwe na chachu??? Au pombe haina chachu wapendwa?? Nakumbuka hata Patrick ali-quote mstari huu mwanzoni kabisa wa mchango wako. 

 

Edwin, ninakuelewa mdogo wangu, lakini kama utakumbuka niliwaomba hapa kuwa; hao wanao-quote watupe mstari mzima badala ya neno moja au mawili. Hilo neno la Kigiriki linalotangulia Oinon (yaani Oivov) unahukika nalo kuwa lipo kwenye mstari huo? Japokuwa sielewei maana ya Oivov, tatizo ni kuwa kuna tafiti zingine zinasema kuwa neno lililotumika hapo ni Oinon pekee yake hakuna Oivov.

Lakini kama waswahili tuusome tena mstari huu - "akamwambia, Kila mtu kwanza huandaa divai iliyo njema; hata watu wakiisha kunywa sana ndipo huleta iliyo dhaifu; wewe umeiweka divai iliyo njema hata sasa." - Yoh 2:10 - SUV, msisitizo added).  Ukisoma mstari huu kama mwalimu utakuwa na maswali haya ya kujiuliza

1. Hivi hiyo divai njema ni ipi ambayo ilitakiwa kuja kabla ya ile dhaifu
2. Iliyo dhaifu ni ipi? ina maana kulikuwa na divai aina mbili?
3. Nini matokeo ya kunywa sana?

Kama jibu la swali la kwanza- divai iliyo njema ni kilaji, Je uzoefu unaonyesha mtu anaweza kuanza kunywa pombe weee kisha mwishoni ukamletea juice? Je watu wanapokunywa sana matokeo yake nini? Kama ni kulewa, kwanini mwandishi aliandike baada ya watu kulewa . Je, mlevi anahitaji nini baada ya hapo, kilaji zaidi au juice. Maswali haya yanatulazimisha tutafute - what actually happened??? Hiyo dhaifu waliyokunywa kwanza waalikwa walikuwaje mpaka waendelee kuhitaji divai baada ya kuisha? Kwa nini Mkuu wa meza a-mind sana ile divai njema??? Kwani sequence ilikuwa ni ya muhimu kivilee hadi MC akamtaka Bw. Arusi aje atoe maelezo ndipo harusi iendelee? n.k.

 

Japokuwa Edwin umetaka kuipanua mada hii mpaka iende kwenye kiwanda cha TBL, TCC n.k lakini naomba tuelewe kuwa kama Kilaji is legallized then hakuna matata kufanya TBL,n.k lakini kama ni dhambi ukweli utabaki pale pale kwamba Baniani ni mbaya na kiatu chake siyo dawa. Edwin it is not the ByLaws zilizowekwa na viongozi wetu, bali ni utata uliojitokeza kuhusiana na translation ya mazao ya mzabibu.

 

Nimalizie kwa kueleza kwa kifupi swala la Paul & Timothy khs kutumia mvinyo kidogo (Jambo hili amelizungumzia Patrick mara kwa mara). Kuna maandishi mbali mbali yanayoonyesha kuwa divai ilitumika kama dawa, Pamoja na kwamba mvinyo tafsri yake ni pombe, swala linabaki pale pale kuwa lile neno liliotafsiriwa pale kama mvinyo, Je, Original language inamaanisha pombe au sio pombe?

 

Again, we can quote any scripture we want to quote but if we'are not sure of the word wine/yayin/oinon included in our quotation whether it's a normal or fermanted grape juice, we can possibly mislead people.

 

How can we be sure, we must keep on digging.

Mathew.  

 

 

 

 

 

2013/12/13 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>

[Seleli Edwin]

Mathew Maduhu my Kaka,

Nimesoma jibu lako la sasa,  na feel tone/waves kabisaaaa, Nina perceive umesoma tena kwa taratibu inputs na kuONA seriously and honestly sisi kama Wahubiri/Waalumu/Wanenaji au generally wagawanya Mkate wa UZIMA, tuna challenge tena si changa but fire ya kui-keep on digging kuhusu Muujiza HUU WA KWANZA KABISA KTK HUDUMA YA BWANA DUNIANI

Tuna options mbili mainly:

Moja: Kukubali UKWELI  wa kilichotokea Kana na Mungu akataka kiwe reccorded live ivyo ivyo bila kumung'unya mung'unya kuhusu ishara aliyotenda Mwanae kisha kutafuta hekima/busara/akili/ufahamu/technique ya kuiwakilisha iyo kweli kwa hekima tuliyopewa kama viongozi juu ya Watu wetu/wa Mungu ili kweli iyo iyo isiwe abused

Pili: Kupiga marufuku/kemea/amua/panga utaratibu au tunga by laws kwa nia njema tu kuwalinda Watu wetu ili wasifanye/tumia/sogelea mambo/vitu ambavyo kama vilivyo si dhambi au baadhi hata vikutumiwa si dhambi ila vina nguvu ya kumfanya mtu hapitilize au ajisahau mfano nimeshasema kunywa, kupenda-penda supu ktk bar, kukaa karibu na mahall ya sinema na makasino, wasichana na Wavulana kuongozana baada ya mkesha, binti kumtembelea mchumba wake alone na mambo kama hayo ambayo, may not be necessarily sin lakini any time T yanakamilisha game

Otherwiese, keep on digging brother and bring what you will have kuhusu Mvinyo Vs. Divai ila i can see utapata bonge la challenge to establish that truth kulingana na kweli nyingi za maandiko na nyingine tayari Patrick amekudokeza- na kama Kiswahili kinaweza kua na maneno muafaka-rich in terminologies kuliko Kiingereza katika kuelezea ya Neno-ilo ni jambo jipya nitapenda kujifunza kwa kweli kwa kiroho safi ingawa kweli hata Kiingereza ukilinganisha na lugha nyingine za zama au zilizofanyiwa kazi decades or may be karne, kinaweza zidiwa anointing pia.

Press on

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/13 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>

EDWIN,na SG Wote Shalom,

[Fredrick Marandu]

Haleluya!

------------------------------
On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 6:34 AM PST iqualiptus malle wrote:

>Alleluia!
>Hongereni woote hapa kwa juhudi ya kujifunza.
>
>Asanteni Patrick na Edwin Selelii kwa "kujaribu kuyajibu" maswali
>niliyoweka hapo awali JAPO NIMEBAKI NA "sehemu ya MASWALI YANGU".
>

>Edwin Selelii, umesema "*I doubt kama umesoma 'Mikeka' yote !!!!!!*", je

>wadhani hiyo mikeka ina majibu? Hata yale umeweka siyo majibu yake japo
>umejitahidi kujaribu.
>Hebu angalia jibu lako kwenye swali la kwanza;

>..."Je Yesu anaweza toa pombe(WINE) kwa Watu?"-Sikuwahi ona Yesu "akigawa"
>pombe kwa watu labda wewe utujibu kuwa umeona wapi Yesu "*akigawa*" pombe
>kwa watu ILA nimewahi kuona mara nyingi Yesu "*akitoa pombe*" kwa watu nao

>watu hao wakibaki huru mbali na pombe hizo.
>
>Patrick Kamera na Edwin Selelii, hebu tuthibitishie kila mmoja binafsi
>IMANI YAKO YENYE MATENDO kama wewe umewahi kutii maandiko "kwa kutoa sadaka
>ya pombe/kileo" kwenye ibada yoyote imhusuyo YWH tangu uwe chini ya jua.
>
>Majibu Mengine ambayo ndugu Selelii umeandika sidhani kama itakuwa busara
>kuyachambua, ila yakisomwa tena na tena yanajitosheleza kupata "kusudi",

>Japo hili kwa kiasi fulani liko karibu na jibu *"**Wengine ni kwa kua

>wanaumwa, wengine ni kinywaji cha kawaida kama vinywaji vingine, wengine ni
>sehemu ya chakula, wengine burudani tu na kwa kufanya ivyo wanapitilizia

>mpaka kua drank from drinking"*

>Hapo kwenye bolded red ndipo kwenye kudi kubwa, kaama alivyosema ndugu
>Patrick hapa;

>"*ni hapana siyo wote wanywao pombe wanafanya hivyo kwa ajili ya afya zao

>au kujitibu ni wachache sana, wengi wanakunywa pombe kwa kupenda kwao

>wenyewe.*" Mimi ninaongeza...kwa kupenda wao wenyewe na kwa raha zao
>wenyewe *sawa na uongozi wa mioyo yao*"

>Kumbuka Neno limeagiza kuwa chochote tufanyacho kwa neno ama tendo kiwe ni
>kwa utukufu wa Bwana na kwa jina lake, so nsijui kama nishangazwe ama
>nisishangazwe kuona mtu akishika chupa/bilauri yake ya kileo ama akimuita
>Yesu ama akishukuru kwake kwa kumbarikia na kukitakasa kinywaji na
>kuendelea kukinywa.
>

>Patick Kamera; umemalizia hivi "*Kwa habari ya hilo suluhisho la unywaji wa

>pombe, labda nikuulize mpendwa unasimamia andiko lipi kutoa suluhisho hilo?
>Kama huna andiko la kusimamia bali unayalazimisha Maandiko kama ambavyo
>umefanya basi suluhisho lako litabakia kuwa ni kitisho kisicho na mashiko

>kabisa...*."
>*Je wajua kama wazinzi, waongo, walafi, walevi, waasherati, waoa wake
>wengi....husimamia maandiko gani? JIBU NI WANAYO MAANDIKO TENA MENGI.*

>Si kila kusimamia andiko ni sahihi, japo mimi maandiko ninayo meengi sana
>kuhusu uniulizalo, baadhi ni haya hapa chini:-
>Kwanza; IMANI PASIPO MATENDO IMEKUFA- James 2:14-26
>Pili; TUYAJARIBU MAMBO YOTE NA KULISHIKA LILILO JEMA....-1Thes 5:21
>Tatu; TUZIJARIBU ROHO-1John 4:1
>Nne; USILIHARIBU HEKALU.... NAWE UTAHARIBIWA...-1Cor 3:17
>

> - Hivyo kama unahimiza unywaji pombe ambao huutekelezi "imani yako

> inakuwa mfu". Ukisema tuhakiki kama pombe ni safi ama si safi lazima
> KUFANYA TENDO la kuipitisha chujioni ili tuone kama itapita bila
> filtrate(uchafu).

> - Utajuaje kama jambo ni jema? Kwa kujifunza (Kusoma, kuona toka kwa

> wengine n.k). Kifupi huhitaji kuvumbua tena tairi, tengeneza tokea wengine
> wamefika= Huhitaji kuanza kuijaribu pombe kama ukiinywa utalewa /
> utaweweseka / utaharisha / upako utaongezeka / utajisikia unapaa ama
> vinginevyo BALI jifunze kwa wale waliotoka kwenye "kifungo hicho"

> - Kama kuna kitu tuna mashaka nacho twaagizwa "*tuijaribu roho iliyo

> nyuma yake*" Hapa mwingine atauliza, kwa namna gani? nami nina swali

> hilo hilo, wote twahitaji kujibiwa.

> - Kama sayansi ya pombe/ kileo inasema madhara yake ni makubwa kwenye

> mwili, kwanini kuliharibu hekalu la Bwana? Yeye Bwana amesema atamharibu
> yule aliharibuye hekalu hilo (Yaani miili yetu) si kwa pombe tu.
>
>Pamoja na kajimkeka kangu hapa ninaomba niweke mambo mawili muhimu ya
>nyongeza.

>Kuna msemo wa Kiswahili usemao *"aisifuye mvua imemnyea" *nami niweke hapa
>msemo wangu kuwa "*akisifuye kilevi kimemlevya*".

>
>Mimi pamoja na waKristo wengine waliozaliwa mara ya pili hapa na kwingineko
>duniani, tumeona familia zetu, ndugu zetu na watu wengine ama wa karibu
>nasi ama mbali walivyoteswa na huyo "kileo/kilevi".
>Kweli tukisema kila mtu alete ushuhuda wa matokeo ya bilauri ama chupa
>mojamoja zilizokuwa zikikubatiwa na wapendwa wetu wengine humuhumu mtalia
>na kutubu.
>

>*Kuhusu maandiko na mambo ya kunukuu (kusimamia);*

>Awali niliainisha "si kila kunukuu ama kusimamia maandiko ni sahihi".
>Mfano rahisi ni; Kwa wale waliowahi kwenda kwa waganga (wanga) na wale
>wanaotibu kwa kutumia roho wa ufalme wa Shetani wanajua fika kuwa baadhi ya
>wanga hao huwa ni vitabu vya dini ikiwamo biblia (maandiko matakatifu).
>Ufikapo hapo unapigwa swali la faster, wewe ni mKristo ama Muisilamu ama...
>Ukishasema mimi ni mKristo mara kitabu chako cha maandiko matakatifu ya
>dini yako anakichukua na kuanza kukusomea..."Mungu
>anasema...blah...blah...blah" then tiba zinaendelea. Unajua kwanini
>wanasoma maandiko?
>
>

> - Watu hutoa sadaka za kuchinja ngombe, kondoo, mbuzi n.k kwa kusimamia
> maandiko....Utasikia "...*Ibrahimu, Waisreli*..."
> - Watu huoa wake wengi kwa kusimamia maandiko.....Utasikia "..
> *Suleiman...*."
> - Hufanya fitna, chuki....na mengine mengi ambayo maandiko yamekataza

> HUKU WAKITUMIA MAANDIKO HAYO HAYO KUHALALISHA

>WAKIFANYACHO....Utasikia "*Hata
> injili inatakiwa kuwafikia watu hata kwa fitna*..."

>
>
>NOTE: Maandiko hayana UHAI bali ROHO ndio HUYAHUISHA, hivyo kila mtu
>anaweza kuyatumia maandiko hata hao wa ufalme wa pili kama baba yao

>alivyotumia kumtega Yesu pale nyikani akiwa kwenye maobi. KWA UFUPI NI

>TUSIBABAISHWE NA MAANDIKO YANAYOSIMAMIWA BALI USAHIHI WAKE JUU YA JAMBO
>HUSIKA KWA NGUVU YA ROHO WA KRISTO.
>Kama tukienenda kwa Roho hatuwi watumwa wa dhambi bali wa sheria ya huyo
>Roho wa Kristo.
>
>

>Yesu awatunze!!!

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>2013/12/13 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>
>
>> Edwin,
>> Ulipata muda ukapitia comments zangu kuhusiana na tofauti kati ya MVINYO
>> na DIVAI. Yesu aligeuza maji yakawa divai sio mvinyo!!!

>> Kwa habari ya Mvinyo (Kilaji) - Hebu pitia maandiko haya;* "Mvinyo
>> hudhihaki, kileo huleta ugomvi; Na akosaye kwa vitu hivyo hana hekima*."

>> - Mithali 20:1 (SUV - Msisitizo added) - Mstari huu unaonyesha mvinyo
>> hufanya nini na kilaji huleta nini.

>> Pia andiko hili; *"Usiwe miongoni mwao wanywao mvinyo; Miongoni mwao

>> walao nyama kwa pupa. Kwa maana mlevi na mlafi huingia umaskini, Na

>> utepetevu humvika mtu nguo mbovu". *- Mithali 23:20-21. (SUV - Misitizo
>> added) Kama ukisoma btwn words utaona kuwa neno *Kwa maana *(mst 23)

>> ninaonyesha kuwa matokeo ya kunywa mvinyo ni kulewa na matokeo ya kula
>> nyama kwa pupa ni ulafi. Bado nina-search kupata products za zabibu na
>> zilivyotumika kwenye maandiko mbali mbali ili kuzitofautisha japokuwa
>> ki-english ni WINE kila sehemu.
>>
>> Keep on digging

>> Mathew.
>>
>>
>> 2013/12/12 Seleli Edwin <selel...@gmail.com>
>>

>> John Rwezaura and all SG.
>>
>> Shalom.
>>
>> Nisikilizeni nitoe maoni yangu binafsi haya:, ruksa kuyapinga au
>> kuyakubali, yote ni mema tu na baraka bado.
>>
>> Kwanza, mijadala ya wazi, uhuru na peupe kama hii, inafaa sana kwakua
>> inazalisha bidii na hamu ya kusoma Neno na vyanzo vingine vya kupata
>> maarifa kuhusu Neno na mambo ya Mungu, pia inasababisha wengi kupata
>> ufahamu wa mambo kwa mara ya kwanza kabisa au ukweli wa upande wa pili
>> ambao hukuwahi kujua au kuwaza kua upo, Na pia debate zikiwa kali ni tamu
>> sana kwa sabubu zinafanya sasa wahusika watoe/watumie yaliyo ya ndani
>> kabisa kuliko kuficha-ficha, ziwe ni mitizamo, hisia, karama, vipaji,
>> huduma, shuhuda na uzoefu wa huduma na kutembea na Mungu na ikifika hapo,
>> tegemea faida nyingi kuliko hasara kwa kua tutapata mengi mno
>>
>> Pili, inasababisha Watu tufahamiane kwa ukwelii tukoje na hiyo ni baraka
>> maana tukifahamiana ki-artificial tu- haipendezi
>>
>> Tatu, kuhusu topic, ningekua mimi John R na wenzako, ILI NISIJIKUTE KTK
>> MATATIZO YA KUPAMBANA NA WANAFUNZI/KONDOO WADADISI KAMA MIE, KUWAKEMEA BURE
>> NA KUWAFIKIRIA KUA UFAHAMU WAO MDOGO KUMBE WANA NEEMA PIA, ningejibu ivi
>> kwa amani na ukweli kabisa na pia kwa HEKIMA ya ufahamu wa namna mambo
>> yanavyoweza kuamuliwa/ endeshwa/wekwa kwa ajili ya kuongoza Watu wa Mungu
>>
>>

>> - Kiblia ni ngumu sana kua na statement ya moja kwa moja kusema

>> kunywa Wine ni dhambi labda kulewa, why? Maandiko yanaonyesha side 2.
>>
>>

>> - Kama Mtu anaongea kwa max finality kua Kunywa pombe ni dhambi,

>> anajiingiza ktk mgogoro mkubwa sana Kimandiko na pia ni sawa na pia
>> kumwambia Yesu alitengeneza ''dhambi''-Arusi ya Kana au alimwambia mwanae
>> Timothy anywe ''dhambi''
>>
>>

>> - Na kung'ang'ania kua nidhambi, wakati anajua kabisa hana na hawezi

>> kupata A-Z statement/Neno ktk Neno, ni wazi, atakua anaingiza man-made by
>> Laws ambazo zaweza kua sawa na kinasaidia Wanadamu kufikia malengo fulani
>> but ni vema Mhusika akakiri kwanza kua hicho ni chake/man-made kama Paul
>> alivyokua jasiri kuandika kua, hili ni MIMI wala sina amri ya Bwana-very
>> honest and open-what a nice mpendwa and leader was he! wow! you see, Hakua
>> na haja ya kung'ang'aniza kila kitu iwe kiroho kikariiii! alisema live,
>> hili nalisema Mimi si Yesu
>>
>>

>> - Kwa msingi huo, Kwa miaka mingi, si tu andiko la Arusi ya Kana

>> huwezi sikia lina hubiriwa but also hata kufuatilia kujua hasa ni
>> Muujiza/Ishara gani ya kwanza Yesu kufanya duniani, inazimwa kiaina, yaani
>> utadhani Mungu ana shida sana Watu wakijua kweli iyo wakati Yeye alifanya
>> iandikwe
>>
>>

>> - Katika kuwaongoza Wanadamu, imetokea Viongozi wa Kiroho wakapata

>> key-privilege ka kuweka taratibu zao hata kama kwa kweli, SI ZA MUNGU wala
>> hazimo ktk Neno( lakini nitakushitua leo-tulia kwanza acha kukemea ovyo
>> ovyo) bado Mungu alizirithia tu maana SI KILICHOTOKA KWA MTU-kiongozi HATA
>> KAMA SI CHA MUNGU- NI DHAMBI!... mmenipata lugha iyo nadhani. Nitoe Mfano ..

>> *Marko.10:1-12* Yesu anasema Musa aliwaruhusu kuwaandikia taraka na

>> kuwatimua Wake zao kwa sababu ya ugumu wa mioyo yao LAKINI TOKA ZAMANI
>> HAIKUA IVYO-manake anasema, toka zamani MPANGO WA MUNGU- Neno la Mungu ni

>> Mtu anamwacha Baba na Mama na kuunganishwa, nao ni mwili mmoJa, hakuna
>> kutenganishwa na Mwanadamu
>>
>>
>> - Kwa mantiki iyo, hata kama hatuna finality ya vitu kama kuvuta

>> sigara, kunywa pombe na yanayofanana na hayo kua ni dhambi, bado
>> tulikatazwa na viongozi wetu si tu kunywa bali hata kubeba creti la bia
>> kutumwa sigara na Baba yako mzazi, kuchangia arusi za ndugu zetu ambazo
>> unajua kwa hakika watatumia pesa yako kwa kununua kilaji, kupita-pita
>> karibu au kunywa supu bar, kwa sababu ya si ugumu wa mioyo bali urahisi wa
>> kuingia majaribuni kwa kuzidiwa na hayo ambayo hata kama mwanzo wake si
>> mbaya na hayajasemwa kua ni dhambi ila unapelekea madhara kadhaa, Kwa iyo
>> Watumishi kusema kila kitu ni dhambi, bila sisi kuwahoji wameitoa ktk
>> maandiko, ndio imetufikisha hapa tulipo leo ambapo kwa bidii binafsi
>> tunaona yako mambo yalifanyika wakati wa Yesu-Arusi ya Kana ambayo aidha
>> hatukuambiwa au tulizimwa kwa makaripio na makemeo na macho makali ya
>> kutengwa kanisani sasa yoyote ukifanya mchezo, Kwa hiyo kama vile Musa
>> alivyotumia mamlaka yake kama Baba yao kiroho na kama alivyokua Paul kwa
>> kuwaona wanae na kuwawekea mambo/mashauri/maamuzi/systemz kadhaa za
>> kufanya wawe safi zaidi, kuondoa matatizo,kutuepushia kunasa ndivyo lilivyo
>> kwetu kwa swala la Wine na Watumishi walichoaamua na kutusimamia kwa hilo
>> kwa namna na maana iyo kwa miaka na kumbuka hatukuruhusiwa kuhoji,
>> wakisema, imetoka, ni Watumishi, over and out maana mpakwa mafuta wa Bwana
>> katamka, kwisha!
>>
>> Press on
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/12/11 John Rwezaura <revrw...@gmail.com>
>>

>>> Kwakweli, John na walio upande wako, *debate/Majadiliano haya

>>> yalikwisha zamani mlipokubali kua alichofanya siku ya Arus ni water into
>>> Wine( tumia Kiingereza iyo maana naona neno Kiswahili- Pombe linawatia

>>> munkari kweli wa kuanza kufyatuka kukemea* 24/7.

>Regards,
>Malle Iqualiptus

[Seleli Edwin]

Pastor Thomas Mosha, man of God and altar,

Good to show up here!

Ni vema tupe uzoefu wako kidogo wa mimbarini, seminani, kongamanoni, Chuoni ulipochomaliza juzi juzi kuhusu Andiko hili...Yoh.2:1-11, Hua unalifundishaje? ulilisomaje chuo ktk kuchambua Agano Jipya na hasa ukizingatia huu ulikua muujiza/ishara ya kwanza ya Yesu ktk huduma ya nje, ukiulizwa swali na wanakodoo wako au wa jirani, unajibuje? plz tell, usi-mute!!!!!!!! itakua ajabu kweli!

Niligusia ktk jibu langu kwa Man of God of altar my friend Mathew Maduhu kua lengo ya debate hii tamu na ngumu ni kupataUfahamu/uthabiti/njia/namna au basi hata tuweka na ujanja mtakatifu/hekima nk YA NAMNA YA KUFUNDISHA NA KUFUNDISHWA hasa mambo yale challenging ktk Neno tunaloamini na hili la Arusi ya Kana ni moja wapo. Tupe yako hasa ukizingatia uko ktk field 24/7 yaani Pastor

Ukisema tu Mtu anayejenga uhalali wa pombe hayuko ktk NJIA hii wakati unajua tuko sana, sana ktk NJIA hii na hatujengi uhalali bali tunatafuta NJIA isiyo na mikwaruzo/kufosi Kingi ya kuhiharamisha, sasa iyo tena ni  njia ya Kifire-fire kumaliza hoja kisicho na tija, kama nondo zipo, share.  Kizazi cha leo tunachokihudumia, utakua na neema sana kama ukishatisha ivyo kisha wakaakuacha tu na wakaendelea kuja hapo kanisani na si kuhama kwenda mahali ambao wanaweza Pastor anaya face mambo changamoto ya Neno kama yaliyo na mazito kisha kupenya ng'ambo ya pili confidently with full cheche/nondo/stones left behind  na next time,  kila anayetaka kupata jibu la the same issue, ana feed na ku-cross the other side full knowledged too kama Pasteri wake,  right man of God?  great, bring that now..your uzoefu/ufunuo/utatuzi

Otherwise, uungane nami  kama  Patrick kua, yako mambo, tuwakataze na kukemea Watu pia kwa msingi wa mamlaka tuliyopewa kama viongozi kwao-Musa,Paul kwa hekima, busara na akili kuliko kufosi kwa maandiko wakati ukweli wa ndani tunajua mmh hapa kuna utata kumkomalia mtu hasa mwenye uelewa uko makanisani kwetu au ktk seminar tunazokwenda kufundisha. Imagine unaitwa kufundisha seminar Wapendwa ktk college/Vasities vs. kwetu uku Ushirombo, utatamani ukae kwetu tu uku maana kila ukisemacho, kwa kweli ni unapata lovely amen, they are  so cooperative yet with some ignorance on baadhi ya mambo kadhaa kama si mengi-wakitegemea kila kitu toka kwa Pastor-nasema hayo kwa uzoefu na ukweli wala haimanishi nimewa-degrade, ni ukweli  tupu hata ukikakasi kidogo, haibadiliki

Press on.

2013/12/13 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>

[Seleli Edwin]

Patrick Kamera,

Nakusoma Bro!

Ni nilimwambia nadhani  Brother John Rwezaura na nani vile nimesahau but kati ya Brother Malle na  Brother Antony kua, the moment tunasema pombe kama pombe ile substance ni dhambi na kwamba kunywa ni dhambi basi tumejiingiza ktk mgogoro mkubwa sana, yaani nirudie, ni mgogoro mkubwa sana maana tutakua tumesema Yesu alitengeneza dhambi, akawafanya watu wa-dhambi In na Paul kwa Timothy alimshauri kunywa dhambi, you see that kasheshe?

Inaku safe kukubali ukweli na ukweli una nguvu kua Yesu alibadilisha maji into wine na kunywa si dhambi bali kulewa..iyo inatuacha salama mbali na kumshutumu Yesu. Na hata tukiwakata wasinywe kabisa, tutumie gear za alima Musa au Paul-akili, hekma ya maongozi, busara ya maamuzi kama viongozi kwao.

Na tukisema kua , hakutengeneza Wine, ili i sound Kiroho, then tuna mgogoro mwigine mkubwa sana  maana lugha asili za Waandishi zinatusuta sana hata maandiko mengine uliyoyatoa yanayoonyesha Mungu mwenywe kuwaambia watoe sadaka za wine- yanatufunga maana Mungu Mtakatifu ikiwa wine kama wine ni dhambi, hasingewaambia watoe sadaka ya dhambi, you see that kashehe again?

Press on and Tuendelee kujifunza

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/14 Patrick Kamera <pka...@gmail.com>

[Seleli Edwin]

Brother Mathew,

Your this time piece , kweli is too detailed and I can see a big job has been done,  thank you for your time, energy to read, search and release this mkeka of yours

Ukizingatia all these discussions, nashawishika kusema kua  kila mmoja amepata au ameongeza-Ufahamu wa  NENO NA MAANDIKO kwa mojawapo ya jambo challenging sana ktk Bible-Arusi ya Kana- maana wote sisi ni wa Imani moja, Ubatizo mmoja, Roho mmoja, Bwana mmoja YET tumakua na stands tofauti na kila upande una many or some very  strong or common points.

Yale ambayo tumekubaliana wote-safi sana na ambayo ni ngumu kua na one clear cut statement kua hiki ni hiki daima na milele, basi mwito wako ni mzuri..''Let us keep on digging''' to be sure  au  always humble call ya Patrick.inalipa pia kua...''Tuendelee kujifunza'' nami nasema tukishayafanya yote au wakati tunaendelea  na digging on and kujifunza continuously, remember always to  Press on.

Nadhani niendelee kujielekeza ktk kushare jumbe na mada mbalimbali hapa Kanisani tu/nimemalize mwaka kwa nguvu kwa kutumia yale yote Bwana ametupa ili mwisho wa mwaka huu, record zetu  mbinguni zisifungwe zikiwa na blames au viraka-raka kwa kutotumia karama, vipaji, na huduma to the fullness.

Ubarikiwe Kaka Mkubwa.

Edwin Seleli

2013/12/16 Mathew Maduhu <mdma...@gmail.com>

[Cathy Marco]

AMENI

2013/12/16 Fredrick Marandu <fredric...@yahoo.com>