SWMM-USERS Digest - 2 Nov 2009 to 3 Nov 2009 (#2009-115)

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Nov 4, 2009, 12:02:16 AM11/4/09

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There are 6 messages totalling 365 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

1. Summary Sheet
2. Simulating Underdrain Flows in SWMM (3)
3. Groundwater interaction with storage units? (2)

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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 05:55:18 -0800
From: "Gregory, Mike" <Mike.G...@AECOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Summary Sheet

Pipe slopes are tabulated in the "Link Summary" section of the *.rpt
output file (Report|Status from SWMM5 menu). Note: this data echo is
only activated if you choose "All Links" in the Reporting Options. This
shows up in the *.inp input file as...
[REPORT]
INPUT YES
CONTROLS YES
SUBCATCHMENTS ALL
NODES ALL
LINKS ALL

Pipe inverts are not included in the data echo for links. If you specify
the "Elevation" Link offset option then these would be entered as the Z1
and Z2 parameters in the [Conduit] data group. If you use the default
"Depth" link offset, then you can tabulate pipe inverts in a spreadsheet
by adding the Z1 and Z2 offset depths to the corresponding node invert
elevations.

Maximum flowrates and velocities are tabulated in the "Link Flow
Summary" section of the *.rpt output file (Report|Status from SWMM5
menu).

Regards,
mike g.

-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of
Klosowski, Selena A. - WMD
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 5:50 PM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Summary Sheet

How do you print out a summary sheet of the slopes, inverts, velocity
and flow for the pipes and nodes in SWMM 5?

Selena A.K. Klosowski, P.E. | Staff Engineer
Wastewater Capital Projects Management | City and County of Denver

2000 West 3rd Avenue, Denver, CO 80223
303.446.3520 Phone | 303.446.3647 Fax | selena.k...@denvergov.org
Email

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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:04:17 -0500
From: Scott Dierks <SDi...@JFNEW.COM>
Subject: Re: Simulating Underdrain Flows in SWMM

All,

We are completing a monitoring and modeling project of porous pavers on
a residential street in Ann Arbor, Michigan. However, getting some
reasonable facsimile of the infiltration and subsequent routing of that
infiltrated water into underdrains is a real challenge. We're using the
subcatchment groundwater routine and routing groundwater that rises
above the underdrain invert as part of the underdrain flow. However,
that flow is very "peaky". It is either zero or rises quickly to what we
think are unreasonable flow peaks. In the actual design it is
conceivable that some runoff gets into swales along the road. In the
model we take the water coming into the swale and use a pump to simulate
that as water entering the underdrain. That way we are able to get some
long, sustained underdrain flow that is not very "peaky" at all.

These are not very satisfying "work-arounds". Would it be possible with
some code changes to route infiltrated water either from subwatersheds
in RUNOFF or from the bottom of storages in EXTRAN to a conduit? Or for
that matter improve the groundwater routine overall? There may have been
some chatter on this in this Listserve before, I don't recall. Any and
all suggestions/help is appreciated. I think this is one of the biggest
impediments to SWMM becoming the de facto model for simulating LID.

Thanks,
Scott Dierks, PE
JFNew
Ann Arbor, Michigan

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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:35:01 -0500
From: Peter Klaver <pkl...@LIMNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Simulating Underdrain Flows in SWMM

Scott - I am just getting familiar with the groundwater routine in SWMM but
I have found that the value of the saturated hydraulic conductivity has a
big influence on the "peakiness" of the response. I would suggest setting B1
to 1.0 and A2 and A3 both to zero, then wind down the value of K. I realize
that model parameters that are based on soil properties should be within
realistic ranges, rather than just arbitrary knobs, but at least find out
how low you need to go to get what you think are realistic results.

I am also wondering how you are modeling the swales. Perhaps you could model
them as depression storage on an all-pervious subcatchment, and then set the
infiltration rate to something suitably low, so they would slowly "empty"
themselves to the groundwater. Just an idea, I don't know how well it would
work.

Feel free to contact me off the list to discuss further...I'm at the same
place.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Scott
Dierks
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:04 AM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Simulating Underdrain Flows in SWMM

All,

Thanks,
Scott Dierks, PE
JFNew
Ann Arbor, Michigan

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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:46:44 -0500
From: Rob James <r...@COMPUTATIONALHYDRAULICS.COM>
Subject: Re: Simulating Underdrain Flows in SWMM

Scott,

You might be aware of this, but we did some work on simulating permeable pavers in the late 90's with SWMM4's groundwater routine. We built a GUI back at that time called PCSWMM for Permeable Pavers for the hydraulic design and sizing of PP installations, complete with simplified sliders and dropdowns for the various settings of clogging potential, deep percolation to the sub-base, lateral (tile) drainage, etc. However the software also had advanced dialogs that provides control over the actual SWMM parameter values being used, has comprehensive documentation on the approach, and can export the behind-the-scenes SWMM4 input file. As the SWMM4 and SWMM5 groundwater routines are essentially the same, the same parameters should work in SWMM5. It is still available free of charge from UNI-GROUP. If you think it may be of help, you can request it here:

http://www.uni-groupusa.org/SoftwareOrder.htm

A second approach that might work, would be to use the SWMM5 storage unit to simulate LID type storage/infiltration devices. It can provide the storage, head-dependent infiltration (Green-Ampt) and flexible outflow (underdrain flow) modeling (with a rating curve, or any combination of links). You would need to combine it with a subcatchment and a groundwater compartment that routed flow directly into the unit, and adjust the area of the storage unit to account for the void ratio. I haven't tried it, so there may be something I'm not thinking of. The main advantage if it did work, would be the ease of setting up the underdrain flow.

Also you should note that EPA is working on a LID toolkit for SWMM5 that should greatly simplify modeling of all storage/infiltration type LIDs, either at a detailed lot level or for a more lumped master planning approach. I'm not sure when it will be available though.

Sincerely,

Rob James
Computational Hydraulics Int. (CHI)
www.computationalhydraulics.com
Tel. 1-519-767-0197

-----Original Message-----
From: SWMM-USERS [mailto:SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca] On Behalf Of Scott Dierks
Sent: November-03-09 9:04 AM
To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca
Subject: Re: [SWMM-USERS] Simulating Underdrain Flows in SWMM

All,

Thanks,
Scott Dierks, PE
JFNew
Ann Arbor, Michigan

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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 10:07:54 -0500
From: Rob James <r...@COMPUTATIONALHYDRAULICS.COM>
Subject: Groundwater interaction with storage units?

Hi all,

I know that there can be interflow between a node and the groundwater compa=
rtment that is draining to it. However, does anyone know how this works for=
storage units where infiltration is being modeled? I presume the flow betw=
een the storage unit and the groundwater compartment is similar to other no=
des in that the flow interaction can be controlled by the relative heads in=
the groundwater compartment and the storage unit through the setup of the =
subcatchment's groundwater parameters, but how does the Green-Ampt infiltra=
tion in a storage unit affect this:

1. Will the infiltrated water from a storage unit be added to the wat=
er in the saturated zone of the groundwater compartment?

2. Will the head in the groundwater compartment affect infiltration f=
rom the storage unit?

Sincerely,

Rob James
Computational Hydraulics Int. (CHI)
www.computationalhydraulics.com
Tel. 1-519-767-0197

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 13:58:57 -0500
From: Lewis Rossman <Rossma...@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Groundwater interaction with storage units?

Water infiltrated from a storage unit simply disappears from the system
(like evaporation does). It does not interact with any groundwater
compartment that might have been connected to the storage unit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lewis Rossman
Environmental Scientist
Water Supply and Water Resources Division
U.S Environmental Protection Agency
email: rossma...@epa.gov

From: Rob James <r...@COMPUTATIONALHYDRAULICS.COM>

To: SWMM-...@listserv.uoguelph.ca

Date: 11/03/2009 10:12 AM

Subject: [SWMM-USERS] Groundwater interaction with storage units?

Hi all,

I know that there can be interflow between a node and the groundwater
compartment that is draining to it. However, does anyone know how this
works for storage units where infiltration is being modeled? I presume
the flow between the storage unit and the groundwater compartment is
similar to other nodes in that the flow interaction can be controlled by
the relative heads in the groundwater compartment and the storage unit
through the setup of the subcatchment's groundwater parameters, but how
does the Green-Ampt infiltration in a storage unit affect this:

1. Will the infiltrated water from a storage unit be added to the
water in the saturated zone of the groundwater compartment?

2. Will the head in the groundwater compartment affect
infiltration from the storage unit?

Sincerely,

Rob James
Computational Hydraulics Int. (CHI)
www.computationalhydraulics.com
Tel. 1-519-767-0197

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End of SWMM-USERS Digest - 2 Nov 2009 to 3 Nov 2009 (#2009-115)
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