Question about writing sanity

[Evestrial Archangel]

More the point, writing the loss of someones sanity. This is something I have wanted to explore and play with in a story for a while, but have been unable to do it in a way that is both relatable to the reader, but still, well, insane. A prime example of this is Stein in Soul Eater. That was a beautifully written show where you get to watch a main character lose his last grips on sanity. But the difference with a show is that the viewer is only watching the character slip into his delusions, not living them. And although I could do the same thing in text, have a 3rd person omniscient, or semi-omniscient perspective, or even a first person perspective of someone close to the subject.

But that's not the same. I want to create a character where the reader feels the paranoia, the delusions, the schizophrenia and psychoses. I want the reader to feel it.

I have my ideas, of course, but I would like other peoples inputs and ideas. Particularly on the machinations of the delusional.

So, what do you think?

[Switch Blayde]

1st-person from the insane character's POV would be perfect for that story. Never tell the reader he's insane. Let the reader wonder why everyone else is. After a while they will figure it out.

Switch
["Sexual Awakening" (full length novel) at: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L1VHIZC ]

[stories at http://storiesonline.net/auth/Switch_Blayde ]
[Twitter at https://twitter.com/swblayde ]
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Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 13:35:59 -0700
From: evestri...@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Question about writing sanity

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[Crumbly Writer]

I consider this a serious question, as I've included it in my own stories, and have known a LOT of people suffering from several mental health issues. However, in my stories, I skirt the issue, not having the character losing his sanity, but standing on the cusp, but being pulled back in the nick of time.

I go for mindset, as things start to fall into his conscousness and the MC starts to lose control of his how he organizes things. People with emotional issues (scitzophrenia, dementia, manic-depressive disorder, etc) spend a LOT of time controlling their thought process, but frequently run into troubles as they miss their medicine. Thus (for those of us watching) we can see them slowly losing their sanity over a couple weeks time (the medication typically has a two to six week window before they go from medicated to unregulated). When they stop the medication, they don't notice any difference. After two weeks, they feel on top of the world, feeling things they have been able to feel for years and being incredibly productive. After that, they start showing more symptoms and lose a bit of themselves each day (every several days for a story).

Most people with mental health issues have learned coping mechanisms, and these are often the first to go. Scizophrenics (those hearing voices) start paying more attention to what they say (when they're properly medicated, they KNOW not to listen to those voices).

Basically, you'll want to read up on the symptoms of whichever mental health issue you're concentrating on. If you need specifics, ask and I'll give you some ideas. But basically, it's a slippery slope. The medications feel like an emotional wet blanket where you just can't feel much of anything. After the blanket comes off, they feel more alive. That energized feeling convinces them they're more in control than ever, so they slack off more. As they start losing the controlling behaviors a piece at a time, they slip further and further away.

This is also a GREAT place for showing them unraveling. Instead of saying "he had trouble concentrating", have them start a project, getting distracted, start another project, notice something and start another one, etc. As far as the character themselves, they'll think they're just getting better and better. A key (in recovery) is noticing others reactions. If they aren't too far along, they'll recognize they're in trouble by how others respond. However, it's hard to surrender feeling human again, so they'll resist it. If they resist it too long, it may be too late. (You should DEFINITELY play with this, as they'll recognize trouble in other people's eyes, but they'll get distracted, then they'll remember and convince themselves that they're fine.

[Switch Blayde]

You have to trust the reader's reading comprehension capabilities. Not to open a can of worms, it's the same with showing vs telling. When you tell, it's obvious. When you show, assuming you do it well, the reader has to "get it."

Switch
["Sexual Awakening" (full length novel) at: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L1VHIZC ]

[stories at http://storiesonline.net/auth/Switch_Blayde ]
[Twitter at https://twitter.com/swblayde ]
[discussion group/blog at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/switch_blayde_group/ ]
 

> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 17:00:04 -0700
> From: el...@storiesonline.org
> To: storie...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Question about writing sanity
>
> The problem with 1st POV and insanity is sometimes the reader doesn't get it.
>
> I have a character with aural hallucinations and I have never gotten feedback about his 'obvious' insanity or questions about how insane is he, how much of everything he sees/hears/tells is also a hallucination, or even a 'Question -- this dude is clinically insane, right?'
>
> So either nobody gets it or nobody mentions it because everyone gets it -- the joke is kind of on me.

[Crumbly Writer]

Not so obviously. The definition of insanity is 'not in control of his actions'. Many schizophrenics, while unsure what's real and what's not, ARE capable to handling life. When they go off their medications, they feel so good they can't see how out of control they are. The key is to catch that transition. If he's had 'episodes' before, and is experiencing it for the first time (i.e. he's between 17 and 22 (not sure on the exact age range), it would be easier to write, because he'd be arguing with others whether he's sick, and would fight the suggestions.

A lot of times, you'll see the symptoms in their eye movement. Especially if they're getting paranoid, they'll hear things which support their thoughts (ex. "No one else can see what's going on, it's up to me to convey what's happening!").

Also, I suspect you might be jumbling mental health issues together. Each of the MHI (Mental Health Issues) is a separate entity. They may have several, but it's not a given. You'll need, at some point, to show each separate disease if you overlap them. If you start the story after he's lost his job, it'll be easier to describe what he's been experienced (ex: "All these claims I was 'acting weird' are WAY off base."). If they've lost their job (or been thrown out of school), then depression would be expected.

[Soronel Haetir]

The problem with a "first person insane" viewpoint goes back to that
"truth is stranger than fiction, fiction has to make sense" bit.

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[Switch Blayde]

It would be an unreliable narrator. It would make sense when you realize the narrator is insane.

Switch
["Sexual Awakening" (full length novel) at: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L1VHIZC ]

[stories at http://storiesonline.net/auth/Switch_Blayde ]
[Twitter at https://twitter.com/swblayde ]
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> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 20:59:06 -0800

> Subject: Re: Question about writing sanity

> From: soronel...@gmail.com
> To: storie...@googlegroups.com

[Evestrial Archangel]

Thank you for the input, not quite what I was hoping to get, but useful none the less. Although it reinforced a lot of the idea's I already had but felt wouldn't work well.
I'm also surprised no one has referenced House of Leaves by Mark Z. Danielewski, as that is a trip and a half to read.

As far as specific symptoms / illness, it depends on the story I decide on, but I'm leaning towards mild schizophrenia devolving into paranoid delusions and culminating into a psychotic break where the character enters a full catatonic state. At this point there will have to be a short, and sharply contrasted, 3rd person omniscient segment as the reader / MC would have no way to know that everything at this point was entirely in their head. The question left though will be, how long has it been like this?

Crumbly Writer, your information on the state of going of meds is quite insightful. I have my own mental issues I deal with, one of which manifests as "mild to sever sociopathic tendencies" which gives me a more, clinical, look at most situations. It gives me a very logical perspective and I often do not contemplate / understand the full range of emotions involved in a situation. That said, any information on how it feels or what emotions are involved is a great help.

[The Black Knight]

The DSM IV would probably be a great help as well in this case. Schizotypal disorders are pretty broad, so any number of 'symptoms' would be appropriate... paranoid delusions, well... they're pretty much all identical except for flavor. Generally, some vast conspiracy is specifically aimed at the subject, almost always existing primarily to accomplish that goal (generally, for the paranoid, the Illuminati came into being in order to act against the subject.)
The real question is does the main character become symptomatic for the first time (typically late teens to early 20s for schizophrenia, IIRC) or is he going off his meds? Very different concepts. For 'going off his meds', those around him are likelier to realize what's happening, where everyone will be wondering if he's developed a drug problem or something if he has no history of mental illness....

[Deadly Ernest]

EA,

There's a book and TV series about a guy with a compulsive disorder that does it well - can't remember the name.

BTW, at one point in my life I spent a few years working with a large number of people who were schizophrenic or manic depressive, I ran a business as part of a program to reintroduce them into society by teaching them work ethics and skills. One thing I became aware of at that time is their behaviors often changed a lot when the doctors were adjusting their medications and at that time they were more likely to go off their meds than when they were on properly adjusted and settled doses. This was a regular concern because the drug levels needed changing over time, I was never told why but was left with the impression they build up a resistance to some of the drugs involved and thus they needed regular increases.

Ernest

[Tim Merrigan]

Nit:  DSM V, the update was published a couple years ago (to much controversy by Asperger's Syndrome patients over the Autism spectrum being listed as a single thing, removing Asperger's as a separate entry (so Asperger's became High Functioning Autism)).

On 2015-08-13 12:12, The Black Knight wrote:

[Crumbly Writer]

When you say the suggestions are 'not quite what I was looking for', what exactly were you looking for? Sample stories which tackle the same issues?

From your description, it sounds like we may have similar mental health issues. Just so you know, very few mental issues result in comas. Most schizophrenics function fine, physically, but their thinking is highly unstable (it's affected by the visions and speech they hear). However, the effects are PURELY mental (i.e. affecting their mental state). A more realistic approach is to have him lose his job (a trigger event) in the first chapter, then have him lose friends (pissing them off, and his becoming increasingly paranoid). The final chapter would either have him living in a public park, where everyone relates to each other, or having him attack someone (a small subset of schizophrenic are actually physically dangerous, although most 'voices' espouse violence or are self-critical).

Another approach you could take, would be to have the voices in his head talk to him. Normally, the voices aren't logical at all, and they don't have in depth discussions, but just keep repeating themselves. But by applying some creative license, you could easily show how sick he is by having his voices getting ruder and more insulting, possibly even telling him just how sick he is.

I think you're right, though. You need to pick a disease, or even a combination, and then let the list of symptoms guide you. Chances are, several people you know might suffer from lessor forms of the illness, but they don't mention it casually. Those people living on the streets are basically those without medical help (i.e. their families abandon them or they disappear because they don't feel welcome). Another option is to have a vet who suffers from both PTSD and schizophrenic (since the military targets people in the age range where the illness first strikes).

[Switch Blayde]

Ernest,

TV series where the lead was compulsive -- Monk.

Switch
["Sexual Awakening" (full length novel) at: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L1VHIZC ]

[stories at http://storiesonline.net/auth/Switch_Blayde ]
[Twitter at https://twitter.com/swblayde ]
[discussion group/blog at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/switch_blayde_group/ ]
 

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Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 12:22:21 -0700
From: ernest....@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: Question about writing sanity

[Deadly Ernest]

Thanks, Switch, I never saw it because I'd given up on watching TV by then, but heard about it.

Ernest

[Switch Blayde]

My mother-in-law had mental problems. Heard voices, paranoia, etc. But it was understandable. She was a young girl in the Warsaw Ghetto during the Nazi occupation, snuck out to get bread, raped by a Polish soldier, hidden by a Christian family until the end of the war, never saw her family again. That would do it to me too.

Then she went to some park where the survivors gathered to find lost relatives. She met my father-in-law there (he was older and never saw his first family again. Well, he saw his brother shot and his nephew held by the ankles and swung like a baseball bat smashing his head against a wall). He too had mental problems from being in concentration camps for 4 or 5 years. When the allies liberated the camp he was lying on the floor (too weak to stand) in line to be gassed. I wonder how many survivors had mental problems?

Neither were on meds.

Switch
["Sexual Awakening" (full length novel) at: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00L1VHIZC ]

[stories at http://storiesonline.net/auth/Switch_Blayde ]
[Twitter at https://twitter.com/swblayde ]
[discussion group/blog at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/switch_blayde_group/ ]
 

---

Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2015 12:59:26 -0700
From: crumbl...@gmail.com

To: storie...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Question about writing sanity

[Crumbly Writer]

PTSD is very different than most mental disorders, and there really aren't any decent medications for it. After a LOT of study on the subject during the Gulf Wars, the thinking now is to attack it immediately, though most people don't even report it until years or decades later. Much of it is ties to explosions, which rattle the brain around in the skull, bruising it. I included a lot of details about it in one story I wrote. The best medicine they've found for it is one which dulls memory just after an episode. Talk therapy is just that, it's talk, it takes forever, a fortune, and accomplishes little.

[Deadly Ernest]

G'day CW,

I know I'm not up on PTSD, but when I was in the NSW Police Force back in the mid 1970s they introduced a police for anyone involved in a very violent event (especially any involving a death or shooting) to undergo counseling for PTSD a.s.a.p., often as part of their next shift because they couldn't always get them in on the same shift as it happened. That was because of what they'd learned of PTSD in Australia and the USA in the wake of WW2, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. I'm sure they know a lot more now than then.

From my understanding of it the biggest cause was the psychic shock of the violence, despite how much it was expected, and it was also made worse for anyone close to any explosion adding some physical shock. There are no drugs I know of that can cure PTSD, but there are some that do help some of the sufferers of PTSD cope a little better - but they can't help them all. PTSD seems to be one of those things that can get worse over time if not addressed as soon as possible, and even when addressed it can get worse.

Ernest

[rbhol...@charter.net]

Even though I was never in the military or in an active war situation.  I have a theory about some of the causes from personal experiences in my own past.  The worst Flashbacks  are caused by those occasions where I was not in control.  The fight memories especially would fall into those categories and other memories of other highly stressful events also have a few similarities.   The memories where I was in control have almost disappeared for all intents and purposes but the ones where I was not in control are as strong as ever.  Also those memories tend to be triggered some how even when I try to be careful.

Mental disorders can be tricky as well.  Heck they labeled me as everything in their books by the time I was 18 years old.   A few years later a doctor came up with an entirely new label which might have fit from what he told me about the common factors for its diagnosis.  I know I got a huge laugh out of his statement that no known test could diagnose it.  I figured out the problem with the tests in 5 minutes, but didn't tell him or give him any clues.  That dumb doctor wanted to try different drugs so as he put it  "this will let us see what effects different drugs will have" or words to that effect.  I lied my head off and said I would think it over and give my answer in a week.  One week later I had left that state and never returned.

[Zine]

Eve's Trial Archangel,

I thought this was a writing group, not a catch-as-catch-can-support-group-for-what-ails-you. What are you going to do if readers don't want to feel it? What then? Try some other bullshit scam to play with their heads? I think the best thing you can do is seek professional help, ASAP.

Zine.

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 4:35:59 PM UTC-4, Evestrial Archangel wrote:

[Evestrial Archangel]

Zane, I was asking for advice on writing mental disorders: what their effects are, how they feel, and what triggers them. I've gotten good information out of this thanks to peoples candid responses and discussion about real world cases of mental disorders. If someone doesn't want to read a story that is psychologically twisted, they don't have to. If I want to write a story that involves mental disorders and twisted crash of a characters psyche, that's my prerogative, not yours. Also, it's Evestrial, not Eve's Trial. Do you have trouble reading? Would like some resources on reading aid? If you must know, Evestrial is a christianisation of an ancient Judeo-Pagan name, so please don't disrespect a name that has millennia of history behind it.

Moving on, Crumbly Writer, a few years ago the "Shell Shock" aspect of PTSD was removed as not actually having anything to do with it. I'm not saying that getting hit by a concussive force strong enough to rattle brain isn't going to have some bad psychological effect, but it isn't a proponent of PTSD. I know many people, several of who are vets, several who are not, who have PTSD. From what I've read, PTSD, in theory, is caused by being in such a stressful situation that your brain gets stuck in a "fight or flight" mentality, and after that, even after the stress has died down, it becomes much easier to trigger the flight or fight response; the door ha been already been broke, so to speak, so it swing freely now. But the problem comes because now there are horrendous memories attached to the feelings involved with it, that amplify it and make it worse. The altered chemical state of the brain during a fear response, mixed with the emotional turmoil reverberates off each other like a sterling engine and is amplified. The Flight or Fight makes the memories feel real, the memories make the flight or fight stronger, which makes the memories stronger... and so on until you can reconcile the memories.

Which ties in nicely, I'll need to make sure I use and emphasize that concept as it seems to be a recurring part of what we've discussed, that self perpetuating, spiraling decline, where your problems feed off each other, growing stronger every time.

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 4:35:59 PM UTC-4, Evestrial Archangel wrote:

[Evestrial Archangel]

Zine, not Zane. Don't I feel like a hypocrite for misreading a name now.

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 4:35:59 PM UTC-4, Evestrial Archangel wrote:

[Deadly Ernest]

How about everyone calming down a bit.

EA, I'm not positive, but am pretty sure, Zine is one of the regulars here who uses text-to-speech and speech-to-text software for their computer related activities. In such a case you can blame the software for not getting the name right as it will take a guess at anything new it sees.

Ernest

[aub...@live.com]

EA,

Don't worry about Zine or anything she says. "Zine" is one of those far-out synonyms for TROLL!

-- aubie56

[Evestrial Archangel]

Deadly Ernest, you're right, I overstepped there and I apologies for the unintended harshness of the comment about their reading ability. I'm sorry, that was unfair of me, especially if they are sight impaired.

So let's get back on topic :-)

Extreme sleep deprivation can have some interesting side effects, especially with other mental issues, like visual and auditory hallucinations or paranoia. I'm assuming this would have an amplifying effect on things like PTSD or schizophrenia, especially if, say, the subject is manic and actively trying to stay awake to get more done. How would that feel, being so manic and driven that you must get all these things done (no focus mind you, just driven) and sleep can wait till everything is finished, in 7 or 8 days... That sounds like a great way to really push a characters psyche, but how do you imagine that would feel? Excited and energetic, then the longer it goes the more you would succumb to the voices / hallucination and the stronger they get as the different sources mix together, changing from excited manic to paranoid manic; can't sleep or they'll get me, can't close my eyes or they'll find me. I imagine the hallucinations, from different sources would 'feel' different. I know when I was once very sleep deprived and started seeing things I KNEW they were not real, but they were still there and I did my best to ignore them. But if your in an altered state and already seeing things, can you judge it the same?

On Wednesday, August 12, 2015 at 4:35:59 PM UTC-4, Evestrial Archangel wrote:

[Zine]

EA,

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 10:09:59 AM UTC-4, Evestrial Archangel wrote:

Zane, I was asking for advice on writing mental disorders: what their effects are, how they feel, and what triggers them. I've gotten good information out of this thanks to peoples candid responses and discussion about real world cases of mental disorders. If someone doesn't want to read a story that is psychologically twisted, they don't have to. If I want to write a story that involves mental disorders and twisted crash of a characters psyche, that's my prerogative, not yours. Also, it's Evestrial, not Eve's Trial. Do you have trouble reading? Would like some resources on reading aid? If you must know, Evestrial is a christianisation of an ancient Judeo-Pagan name, so please don't disrespect a name that has millennia of history behind it.

http://www.abebooks.com/Eves-Trial-Curse-Albert-James-Trafford/10527061885/bd

I'll tell you what. As soon as you start living "The Curse," you can lecture me on disrespecting it. Sound fair?

Zine.

[Zine]

aubie 56,

Exactly right, while Aubie is a synonym for a spoiled little boy who never managed to grow up; consequently, temper tantrums occasionally arise when someone else receives even marginally more attention than he.

Zine.

[Zine]

DE,

Not a software problem, but thanks anyway.

Zine.

[Deadly Ernest]

EA,

I think, at this point, you need to be talking to a mental health professional. Back in the 1980s I worked with a couple of dozen people who were either schizophrenic or manic - depressive. One thing I noticed is when they were off their meds or the meds needed adjustment the manics were like roller-coasters in that they were on a high for a few days and then real down for a few days, but only a few days. How typical that was I don't know. The schizophrenics would often either lock themselves away for a few days or got out and wander about doing odd things for a few days. For some reason they usually settled down within a week, but not always. I didn't have the medical training to really know and understand what was going on, but did learn that sometimes the meds aren't working right because their own systems had changed and the meds needed to be adjusted to suit their new personal chemical situation.

As to what mental issue you go with, a lot depends on the final effect you want. the autistic spectrum offers a few option when you get up at the attention deficit hyperactivity disorder area. ADHD people can be just as manic as a manic / depressive but they jump around a lot more because they don't have an attention span worth noting - except when medicated.

I think you need to work out the effect you want and then go from there.

Paranoia is also an issue that can be, and often really is, rooted in real life situations and many a paranoid person has no real mental health issue because the paranoia is a sane response to their life experiences. A cop who's been under long term deep cover investigation is a classic example of paranoid like behaviour when they come out from cover. Ditto intelligence operatives.

The field is so wide.

Ernest

[Crumbly Writer]

Sorry, Evestrial, but I've never noticed sleep as having much of an effect. Under one medication, which I was on until recently, I had horrid sleep patterns, and I've got a family history of terrible sleep. However, it didn't seem to affect my performance, or increase my symptoms. I'd frequently get to the point where I couldn't work during the day (too many distractions), and would wait for a while, and then work all night (no distractions). Again, no real increase in symptoms, I'd just sleep for the next couple of days. Now, if I stay up only an hour late for two days in a row, I'll sleep ALL day (which is really disturbing).

I haven't talked to others with different mental disorder enough to know how lack of sleep affects them, but since no one's brought it up, I'm guessing it's not an issue. However, I don't think anyone has any strong opinions about it either, so if you used it as a story element I'm sure no one would see it as 'wrong'.

As far as 'knowing' your hallucinations are real or not, that's mostly a matter of management. If you're in good maintenance (i.e. taking your medication regularly), you KNOW they aren't real, and can convince yourself NOT to act on them. But, if you want access to your creative side, many will halt the medication and will begin to lose track of what's real and what's not. Thus it becomes a narrowed edged blade. You try to get as close to the edge as you can without going over, but it's REAL easy to lose control.

[Evestrial Archangel]

Zine, I'm confused, what is this book, I've never heard of it, and with does it have to do with my name? Unless the name Evestrial is referenced in there, I see similarities other than a reasonably similar arrangement of letter with a completely different meaning.

DE I think your right, I've gotten a lot of good information out of what people have been willing to share here. It gives me a good place to start and i can certainly talk to a professional if I need something more specific that I can't find in general research.

CW Thanks, that's actually really interesting. I would have thought sleep dep would have exacerbated most issues. But I've not come across anything in my research that specifically show the effects of sleep dep on different disorders. Most of what I was running off of there is my research for Welcome to Your Dungeon which involved a lot of extreme situations, including sleep dep, sensory dep, and complete isolation.

[Zine]

Evestrial,

Evestrial [Eve's Trial], or simply "The Curse" is an old (and not-so-old-name) for menstruation. Ring a bell?

Zine.

[Evestrial Archangel]

Zine, that's hilarious, I've actually not heard that one, but it makes sense, knowing your christian mythos, the Trial of Eve is a fitting term. But no, Evestrial comes from the Christinisation, through Old English / Latin of ancient Hebrew and is closer to, "The Repentant Destroyer." I mean, if you are going to invoke a name to protect or destroy, why not that one?

[Tim Merrigan]

On 2015-08-14 14:22, Evestrial Archangel wrote:

through Old English / Latin of ancient Hebrew

That phrase makes no sense.  You've got three mostly unrelated languages (Old English, Latin, and Hebrew) in two language families (Indo-Euripian and Semitic).  Other than loan words nothing goes through all three languages.  And "the Christionisation" isn't a language.  The Christionization of whom, what was the original language your name (nym?) evolved from while passing through Christionazation, Old English, Latin, and Ancient Hebrew.  BTW I think you have that order wrong too, backwards even.

[Deadly Ernest]

Tim,

Every name in the Bible (especially the Old testament) went through several language translations of either Aramaic - Hebrew - Ancient Latin - Old Latin - Old English or Greek - Ancient Latin - Old Latin - Old English, thus you can get almost anything. What is odd is how some of them actually come out close to their original sounds, but not all. So almost anything is possible. Remember Ywhw became Jehova.

Ernest

[Zine]

DE,

Ego sum qui sum. (I am Who I am.)

Zine.

[massivereader]

Part of the issue is that many anti-psychotic drug need to build up a suficient blood titer so that the periodic oral doses are enough to sustain the necessary minimum effective concentration between doses. This can take up to a week.

 

All medications produce kind of a roller coaster ride of blood concentrations of every drug taken orally, with absorption from the gut causing higher blood levels over a period of one to eight hours and metabolism by the liver or whatever other excretory or metabolic function the body uses to break down the drug over time, decreasing the blood levels at a (relatively) steady state. Getting a medicine to work usefully means keeping the blood concentrations high enough to be clinically useful but at low enough levels to minimize toxicity and dleterious side effects (which every drug, bar none, has).

 

The best drugs have minimum theraputic concentrations that are less than a twentieth of their toxic concentrations.

 

Anti-psychotics have a number of issues complicating the process.  The pharmacology of each drug is different, but most of the anti-psychotic class of drugs work by moderating serotonin uptake. Most of the serotonin production in the body is in the Gastro-intestinal tract, so the drug can cause a lot of unwanted side effects there, as well as elsewhere in the body. The drugs have to pass the blood-brain barrier to have the desired theraputic effect, which many drugs have difficulty acomplishing. This usally requires a fairly high level of the drug being mainitained in the bloodstream. The highest blood concentrations reached a few hours after oral administration also effect seratonin uptake all over the rest of the body involving nerve cells, including all the senses, making everything seem to have a flat and dull affect which is why people taking the drugs dislike them so intensely.

 

Eventually they find out that missing a dose, or lengthening the time between doses makes them feel better, then they try going off the meds completely and they are perfectly fine for two or three days, until the body metabolizes most of the drug stored in their body. Once the blood titer drops below the minimum effective concentration, though... Boom! They are back to their original problem, usually exacerbated by the body's attempt to defeat the drug by producing even higher than normal (for them) levels of serotonin.

 

John

[massivereader]

That's what you get when you're dealing with syncretic religions.

 

John

[Invid Fan]

On Friday, August 14, 2015 at 11:38:50 PM UTC-4, Deadly Ernest wrote:

Tim,

Every name in the Bible (especially the Old testament) went through several language translations of either Aramaic - Hebrew - Ancient Latin - Old Latin - Old English or Greek - Ancient Latin - Old Latin - Old English, thus you can get almost anything. What is odd is how some of them actually come out close to their original sounds, but not all. So almost anything is possible. Remember Ywhw became Jehova.

Well, that's because Christians got confused. Hebrew was written without the vowels, like many languages were, to save room. You could add vowel markers if you really wanted to, to make sure readers unfamiliar with the text used the right one (especially with religious texts, it was assumed new readers were learning it with the help of an experienced scribe/priest who knew what it actually said). When the final form of the Torah was put together, the Rabbis added vowel markers to the texts as they were afraid Hebrew was dying out. However, since nobody was ever to say God's name (except once a year at the Temple), they inserted the vowel markers for the word you were supposed to replace it with, 'Lord'. Later Christians assumed, naturally, those were the right vowels and came up with Jehovah. Exactly how you pronounce YHVH is unknown, although Yahveh is the best guess.

[rbhol...@charter.net]

Part of the problems with a mental or emotional diagnosis is they use standardized tests with standardized results.  None of the tests allow for the trial and error process any person with a problem regardless of the problem will go through in adapting to the problem.  Thus the standardized tests can give false results at times.   The higher the individual's basic abilities rather emotional/physical or mental the more variables in the trial and error process that can and most likely will cause false labels.

[Crumbly Writer]

Excellent overview, but I still maintain my 2 to 8 week for the drug to be complete absorbed (I'm basing that on experiences). Meaning you can go OFF the drug, within a week feel good, but if you switch drugs, it'll take two weeks to feel the first minimal changes, and eight before you feel the full effect (probably the blood brain barrier issue). In a separate class of drugs (also serotonin based), the greatest risk of someone who's depressed taking their own lives, is shortly after taking anti-depressants, as the drug begins to respond, by giving the person more energy, while they still feel like their life is terrible. When I experienced that for the first time, I was in a car, driving upstate NY, and I felt a sudden compulsion to open the door and throw myself out while traveling 75 mph. Obviously I didn't do it, but many people do.

[Deadly Ernest]

G'day IV,

From the Biblical studies I read it wasn't so much the Christians per se, as most of the early ones were converted Jews, but the later Roman Jews when they translated things into Latin and the Latin of that day didn't have certain letters, thus it got altered to Jehova for the Romans while the Hebrewic Christians still said it the way the Jews did - phonetically, at first, they sort of sounded the same, but when the pronunciation of the Roman version changed the sound changed to match the Roman spelling. The early Roman Christians wrote Jehova but said Ya-owa (or something like that I'm told).

Ernest

[Invid Fan]

Well, see, they shouldn't have been saying it at all, as nobody was to use God's name :) The change from Y to J was, yes, a translation thing (which is where Jesus comes from), but it's the putting those vowels into that word that's the problem.

You can buy "Sacred Name" Bibles, which replace the words Lord and God with the actual names used in the original texts. It gives you a much better understanding of what was meant. You can find an online version at http://www.wordofyah.org/scriptures/

[Deadly Ernest]

G'day IF,

Sorry about the typo in the last post. Thanks for that link, I'll look at that later. If we want to talk about the Bible further I suggest we start a new thread, but I do want to mention that as well as the sound changing with the written translation version with names like what sounded like Yee-soous becoming Gee-zus because the Romans wrote it as Jesus there were a lot of other changes made in the interpretation of the what the words used meant due to later church leaders putting a spin on things for their own reasons. That was because most of the high level church leaders were more politician than preacher.

Ernest

[perv...@gmail.com]

If you've ever seen the television shows Perception (TNT) or Black Box (ABC) it's rapidly clear that a lot of serious mental issues involve an altered state of mind where the person believes themself to be acting rationally, but is suffering from an incomplete or skewed view of the external world, or some portion of their brain that controls or restrains specific behaviors or personality elements is not functioning. Someone who is truly insane is not likely to think that of themself unless they return to or have moments of normal lucidity.

First-person narration of the mental illness sufferer is ambitious and intriguing. I've had the notion to write something like that myself, of course with my own unique twist on it.

[Deadly Ernest]

G'day EA,

I just had another thought on this. Before you decide what you're doing you need to decide what type of behaviour you want to show. Depending on what that is and how it differs the issue could be a mental disorder or a totally different world view. If someone grew up in a very different environment or set of behaviours others would view them as crazy while they have no actual mental disorders at all. Some extreme examples are the way the WW2 Japanese view of surrendering differed from the European way, how many American Indian Tribes viewed land ownership different to the European invaders, history is full of such examples of different behavioural patterns causing clashes with people from other cultures.

Ernest

[Tim Merrigan]

And, what's more in the medium aged texts, long after the Hebrew alphabet had been almost completely replaced by the Aramaic alphabet, which is still used today, "yod-hay-vev-hay" was still written in the ancient Hebrew alphabet.  (And pronounced Adonai, as it still is today.)

[Tim Merrigan]

The first more or less commonly available foreign language bible was the Septuagint, translated into Greek for the non-Hebrew speaking Jews of Alexandria.  (And I don't know what the did with the tetragrammaton.) Any Latin translations came much later, probably post Christian.  It was the early Christians who translated it into (Vulgate) Latin.  (There was apparently debate within The Church as to whether to translate it into formal or Vulgate, and they decided on Vulgate as that's was what the people in (western) Rome actually spoke.)

Also, "Jehovah" comes from the German (Gutenberg and Martin Luther) spelling, where the "J" has what we English speakers would consider a "Y" sound.

[Evestrial Archangel]

Wow, I'm away from computers for a weekend and I miss a lot...

Didn't mean to start a sidetrack and I would like to try to end it and stick to the topic of the thread. Tim, I discovered the name ages ago while researching for a long list of names of angels and daemons. The name Evestrial was the Old-English (might have been Middle English) translation of a name in Latin, that was translated from ancient Hebrew. The early church did a lot of this, 'Christianization' of texts, where they would translate to Latin anything they could get their hands on (pertaining to their theology) and a lot of names of Angels and Devils were derived from those of the ancient Hebrew texts. I want to refer to the Dead Sea scrolls as a reference for this, but that's way wrong, as they were not discovered till around 1950. Although the V sound was not really used in Latin and the letter V wasn't in Old-English. So that v could be a W sound or wynn sound or a few other choices; as was previously stated, Christians got confused and many sounds were guessed in a lot of translations.

This is also about the time I discovered my favorite book of all time, the Exeter Codex. So much amazing work in there, one day I hope to be able to see it in person, no just pictures.

But enough about that. Massivereader,, thanks for the information on the toxicology, I will have to do some research in that direction as I think that is likely to matter. Although I'll need to dig up some more specifics and interactions.

And yes, the inability to standardize such tests as everyone is different, is certainly going to be an aspect of the plot, although not part of the concept of the story. Part of what's going to happen will be a misdiagnosis that perpetuates some changes in medication.

Perv, that's one of the issues I've been struggling with. How do you capture that illogical rationality? I figure the best way to deal with it is when the MC starts seeing hallucinations, to deal with them as if they are real. For reference, the character will have lucid moments, lots of them at first. The issues will first start manifesting as memories in his dreams, then slowly come to life, and there will be more "nightmares" than lucid moments toward the end, when the final break pushes him over into living in just his own mind.

Thank you all for the great information, I hope to get started on writing this soon.

[rbhol...@charter.net]

I learned about the problem at the age of 15.  I started playing what if games with all the darn tests the experts were giving me.  Every time the results changed.  They added a new label to my diagnosis because it was easier than asking why the different results.   I played those games for years.  I had fun driving those so-called experts up the walls with wrong answers.  But then again what could they expect a kid to do when they refuse to educate him after he passes the GED test at that age. My regular education stopped after I passed that test (big mistake on my part).  So I had to learn on my own and the only methods available to me was playing head games with the so-called experts.  And I probably could still do it. The experts especially get hung up on the difference between Applied and Book skills.

[Tim Merrigan]

On 2015-08-17 09:25, Evestrial Archangel wrote:

Perv, that's one of the issues I've been struggling with. How do you capture that illogical rationality? I figure the best way to deal with it is when the MC starts seeing hallucinations, to deal with them as if they are real. For reference, the character will have lucid moments, lots of them at first. The issues will first start manifesting as memories in his dreams, then slowly come to life, and there will be more "nightmares" than lucid moments toward the end, when the final break pushes him over into living in just his own mind.

I'm reminded of the scene in "A Beautiful Mind" when the MC realizes he's hallucinating when he realizes that the 10 yo girl he'd first met some 10 or more years earlier hadn't aged any.

[Crumbly Writer]

You could try (to show how 'off'' the MC is) by doing what they did in the file "A Beautiful Mind". Have the character have an extended discussion with someone, and THEN have someone else nearby state that there no one in the room, even as the MC is looking at him. That SCREAMS schizophrenic!

[Evestrial Archangel]

TM, I love 'A Beautiful Mind.' I was planning on having hints like that available for the reader to pickup.

CW, And yes, I was planning on doing something like that, dealing with hallucinations as if they are actually there and having someone point out there isn't anything there, then the MC will rationalize the answer to his own world.

"I captured one of the bugs that was crawling under my skin," I say as I hold up the mason jar.
"There's nothing in there."
"That's what they want you to think!"

Although probably not so, "It's all a government conspiracy" sounding.

[Crumbly Writer]

OK, so it sounds like you've definitely chosen schizophrenia as your mental health illness de jour. Just keep in mind that MHI tend to congregate. Also, remember that a sizeable amount of people living on part benches suffer from schizophrenia or other mental diseases. Those with families don't always have to, but often time, when they're off their drugs, they end up there. You might cover it with you MC recalling what living on the street was like, or even mention after-effects. "I almost lost my leg living in the park, and even now my skin is brittle."

I tend to play up the 'living in the park because the family won't put up with someone' in my stories, but it's not always so clean cut. Another tidbit, a sizeable number of schizophrenics DON'T have multiple dilusions (i.e. some see things, some hear things, but only a small percentage get both). I'm not sure of the numbers on this, though. Also, sometimes those with MHI will act out in order to keep from being bothered (i.e. a manic-depressive (I prefer the old names to many diseases)) will start talking to themselves if they think someone will approach them. That practice isn't wide spread, but it's an additional element you can use. But you'll probably want to define your family dynamics before getting too far into the story.

Right now I'm doing a reverse-MHI, where I have someone without any mental health issues talk to himself because he's such a loner. Some of my beta-readers REALLY didn't like that aspect of the story (their kids have spent time living on the street).

[perv...@gmail.com]

That's part of the fun in Perception, by the way. The main character has a lot of them, and he knows he does. Most of them are out of place enough that he recognizes them for what they are, and they serve as a plot device, the method in which his subconscious sends ideas to his conscious mind about solving the murder or whatever the case of the week is. But then there's always the ones the writers throw in that seem like a plausible person who should be there, until you get the "who are you talking to" moment.

[Crumbly Writer]

Or when an author/cartoonist writes about a group of future do-gooders, until you see it consists of a tree and a racoon, and you realize it's the cartoonist who's nuts! 'D Or when a famous author writes a philosophical treatise based on his turning into a cockroach, and you realize the entire story was written under the effects of absinthe.