Legal age to engage in sex

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cainne...@gmail.com

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Aug 22, 2015, 6:30:01 PM8/22/15
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There was a thread that discussed legal issues surrounding stories containing sexual interaction and the participants ages.  18 seems to be the safest age in order to stay clear of authorities.

So the question is 18 based strictly on Earth's Calendar?  That is the person has lived 18*365 24 hour days.  So if a story takes place in another solar system where a year is say 540 - 24 hour days, then the equivalent age would be ~13 for someone in that system.  I don't think there is an issue, but...this involves narrow minds and lawyers.

Cheers, Cainneach

Joe "Bondi" Beach

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Aug 22, 2015, 6:52:15 PM8/22/15
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On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 3:30 PM, <cainne...@gmail.com> wrote:
There was a thread that discussed legal issues surrounding stories containing sexual interaction and the participants ages.  18 seems to be the safest age in order to stay clear of authorities.

So the question is 18 based strictly on Earth's Calendar?

Yes. According to the greatest porn minds of the 21st century, at any rate.

One is unlikely to get around the underage threshold by positing a universe where presto magico (that's a technical term, BTW) a 13-year-old is really the equivalent of 18 years old.

Unlikely to be a successful gambit, but might be interesting to try.

bb
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Crumbly Writer

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Aug 22, 2015, 7:30:45 PM8/22/15
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People try it all the time, or at least they did when the '16 and above only' rule went into effect (SOL allows 16 assuming no prosecutor is going to bug him about that small a difference). Everyone was trying to get around the rule, but that was probably the least successful. Probably the best method, assuming you're talking about high-school kids (using the U.S. educational system), is to simply NOT mention age (or clues like lack of hair). However, that's not guaranteed to keep you out of trouble. After all, you may get away with it, but if Lazeez gets caught, it'll mean the rest of us won't have SOL to post to anymore!

I tried to stretch the limits myself, but I took Lazeez and the Canadian law at it's word. They said: no descriptions of the sex, so I introduced a group of pre-teens who sat around and teased the adults while they had sex. The story went thru without a problem.

Tim Merrigan

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Aug 22, 2015, 8:09:32 PM8/22/15
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Give the age, if you mention it at all, in Earth years.  Or in relative sexual maturity (e.g. six years past sexual maturity, three past optimal breeding age).

P.S. it's also species specific, an 18 year old cat, for instance, is geriatric, or nearly so, and an 18 year old May Fly has been dead for 17 generations.

Kim Little

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Aug 22, 2015, 9:34:53 PM8/22/15
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Reminds me of a friend of mine who worked for a well-known distributor of translations of Japanese porn games. I asked him if the work was difficult and he said "Not really - the hardest thing is coming up with explanations for the 10 year old little sister characters that will avoid the game being prohibited as child porn. So she's usually suffering a rare medical condition or she's actually a 460yo witch who has been cursed to always look like a 10yo girl. And then scouring the game scripts to make sure all references to her original underage status has been removed."

Ewww...

massivereader

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Aug 22, 2015, 9:49:16 PM8/22/15
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It's a standard trope of Mars-based science fiction, going back to Heinlein at the very least ("Podkayne of Mars". "The Rolling Stones"). Mars has a sidereal peiod of 1.9 earth years. The age of consent would be nine and a half Mars years.
 
Using a colony in Jupiter orbit, or more likely a colony on one of the moons like Europa, the age of consent would be about a year and a half Jupiter years old. Jupiter has a sidereal period of 11.8 earth years
 
A colony of Saturn the age of consent would be about six tenths of a Saturn year. The sidereal period of Saturn is 29.5 earth years.
 
Of course, all that would mean the age of consent of Uranus would be 0.215 years, (sidereal period of 84 years) which brings to mind some rather grisly dead baby jokes from elementary school.
 
John 

Deadly Ernest

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Aug 22, 2015, 10:33:48 PM8/22/15
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It's a standard tactic in sci-fi. They talk of a Standard Year and a Local Year and give time frames in both at some point but tend to give things in the Standard Year which is the Earth Year.

Switch Blayde

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Aug 23, 2015, 1:07:34 AM8/23/15
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I don't believe it would be accepted, just like they say stepfather-stepdaughter is incest. They see it as a way of trying to beat the system.

Switch
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Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2015 15:30:01 -0700
From: cainne...@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Legal age to engage in sex


There was a thread that discussed legal issues surrounding stories containing sexual interaction and the participants ages.  18 seems to be the safest age in order to stay clear of authorities.

So the question is 18 based strictly on Earth's Calendar?  That is the person has lived 18*365 24 hour days.  So if a story takes place in another solar system where a year is say 540 - 24 hour days, then the equivalent age would be ~13 for someone in that system.  I don't think there is an issue, but...this involves narrow minds and lawyers.

Cheers, Cainneach

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rbhol...@charter.net

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Aug 23, 2015, 3:46:40 AM8/23/15
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This has to be one of the hardest questions to answer.  The correct answer changes depending on time and location not to mention cultural variables.  What is acceptable in one is not always the same in another culture or time period. 
At one time it was normal for a girl to be married before she was 15 or so.  The age varied but as a result of that the "Old Maid" age also varies depending on culture and time period.

Far as writing I would think the legal age has to be what is allowed at the time the story is written not what was allowed in an earlier time period.

As to given ages use earth time factors not Mars or Jupiter time factors.   The variations in rotational time and year length might be important but otherwise years should be based on the earth year easier to keep the ages legal that way.  Basically just use local time or years when it is the only way that will work.  Age should always be on the earth standard calendar. (until the laws and customs change)

Gábor, Korpás

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Aug 23, 2015, 4:21:37 AM8/23/15
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The rule of a lot of story collection is 18 years so I write my stories with this rule. My last story's main character (and friends, girlfriends) are High School age so I wrote the First Time over 18 year.
I could publish this story (first I published my all stories on SOL) with other Pen name (I am banned on LIT) on Literotica and the strict lectors of Literotica published my story(???Did not know I am banned or only that Pan name Duna is banned??? Do not I know???? ). I emphasized the above 18 years old age in the story and I got green light. Stangstar06 had more stories on SOL than on Lit because he wrote some stories where the First Time was in the High School and he did not (or could not) emphasize she/he was over 18 in the stories. I learned from his mistake and here I emphasized the First Time was after the 18 years birthday. If somebody emphasized the First Time was over 18 years in the school-leaver year the story could be published everywhere.

Duna



Deadly Ernest

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Aug 23, 2015, 5:18:40 AM8/23/15
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Just a mild clarification there. For the legal aspects and most site rules the age for engaging in graphic sex is 18 years (some have lower, but 18 is the safest). However, that does not mean there first sex has to be at 18. What it means is you can not describe any sex scenes before they're stated as being 18 y/o. Thus you can have the story start with the characters as being 18 y/o and they can mention, but not describe in detail, they've been sexual active for years prior to that. No one believes any 18 y/o is still a virgin, although some do still exist - it just isn't believed in the real world.

Ernest

Crumbly Writer

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Aug 23, 2015, 10:02:00 AM8/23/15
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Just so everyone is clear, most quasi-publishing sites (i.e. Amazon, createspace, etc.) restrict based on 18-years-of-age (mostly because of the relatively recent Canadian and Australian laws, but also because these companies sell to places like Saudi-Arabia, China, Iran, etc.). However, SOL's only limit is 16, so you can write a reasonable high-school sex story, just as long as you use older kids (Juniors or Seniors in the U.S. Educational system).

I believe Lazeez, discussing this very topic soon after he changed SOL's rules: "I know it when I see it. If it looks like kiddie-porn, that's what it is. If it mentions genitals which sound like those of children, or you make the kids sound like they're underaged, it'll get yanked. Thus it's more 'perception based' than 'stated age' based.

Due to long periods of legal fights over literature, America now has the most liberal literature laws, which is why ASSTR can have a thriving child-porn market, while Canada cannot. However, with everyone thinking global now, it's a race to the most conservative standard.

Sam

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Aug 23, 2015, 11:17:40 AM8/23/15
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On Sunday, August 23, 2015 at 10:02:00 AM UTC-4, Crumbly Writer wrote:
However, SOL's only limit is 16, so you can write a reasonable high-school sex story, just as long as you use older kids (Juniors or Seniors in the U.S. Educational system).
Actually, it's 14.

Gábor, Korpás

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Aug 23, 2015, 11:27:03 AM8/23/15
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Thank you for the explanation.

Duna

Gábor, Korpás

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Aug 23, 2015, 1:52:56 PM8/23/15
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On 2015.08.23. 11:18, Deadly Ernest wrote:
Unfortunately age rules of story collections affected the most of my stories a very little (I wrote the First time over 18....) to avoid any problem. But my last story is much problem my main character's First time was in Christmas Boxer day night (Graphic sex here) and  his friends will have after the Prom (after January). I will not rewrite 11 stories, but it is good to know for the future. I am writing a story where the second character will tell to the narrator character he saw his teacher (and wife) mom with her 17 years old student and the second character son would be also 17-18 years old that time (3 years prison punishment possibility in USA). Is it publishable this short account without graphic details  almost everywhere? I know SOL will not be problem.
BTW Stangstar06 wrote  those stories without graphic sex but Literotica refused those stories. I think this affected me strongly. I published my stories on SOL and Lit before the Lit banned me.

Duna

Crumbly Writer

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Aug 23, 2015, 2:46:58 PM8/23/15
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Every site is getting edgy about this material. If the site is American, and caters to an American audience, they tend to be like ASSTR and welcome underage stories (though I can't think of many, anymore). But, if the site it out of country, or worse, trying to build a market globally, they'll avoid underage stories like the plague. When you write your stories, you really need to consider how it'll play in Iran, China, Saudi Arabia, etc. There are few specific laws governing what is publishable, and they wouldn't really apply to you anyway if you don't live there, but if it impacts global acceptance of the website, they simply won't touch it. Think of it as 'Global Self-Censorship'. Which is strange, because foreign readers seen to swarm to the forbidden stories like "Lolita" and other controversial books banned in their own countries. But, that's the price of admission to the global market.

Deadly Ernest

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Aug 23, 2015, 6:12:31 PM8/23/15
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G'day Duna,

This is a hard subject to get a clear and uniform answer on, however, it's been my experience that the general standard between 'it's OK' and 'it's not allowed' is the detail it's described in, although some areas don't recognize anyone knowing a thing about sex until they're a 21 y/o. Simple statement of something like: Joy said, "I had my first fuck when I was fifteen. It was the neighbor's boy." - that will usually get through, while describing how he undressed her or entered he won't. I look at it as being the difference in detail the witness gives in the court on being raped and the newspaper report of 'she said he raped her.' The first is graphic because the court needs it, while the other is a simple statement of minimal fact.

Ernest

Joe "Bondi" Beach

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Aug 23, 2015, 6:18:11 PM8/23/15
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On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Crumbly Writer <crumbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
Every site is getting edgy about this material. If the site is American, and caters to an American audience, they tend to be like ASSTR and welcome underage stories (though I can't think of many, anymore).

I can't think of a single commercial site (online-only or online presence of a brick-and-mortar store) that carries fiction with underage characters that engage in explicit sex. Not a single one, and that includes erotica publishers such as Excessica and such.

I suspect it's more fear of being a target of online American prudes than overseas sales.

There are plenty of commercial sites that sell fiction with threesomes, foursomes, whatever, gay couples, LGBT couples, etc., etc.—almost any combination short of bestiality that you can imagine—but no underage sex and very little incest.

We are leaving aside literary works, of course. Of course.

bb

Crumbly Writer

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Aug 23, 2015, 8:15:14 PM8/23/15
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OK, here's a dilemma. I'm considering another 'brother and sister get involved, only to discover they were both adopted' story. Do you think that the moral landscape has changed enough I might have trouble with it? (I did it once before, where they were actually brother in sister who knew each other in a past life, and it never got a twitch from the censor squad, mostly because I introduced it slowly, so the only people who'd complain would already have jumped ship.) The whole 'they were adopted' aspect is central to the plot, so it wasn't added to get around the issue.

Joe, that's why I said 'the only one I know of is ASSTR'. (By the way, ASSTR is an American company and is the ONLY recognized site running those stories on a regular basis, though several authors have personal sites dedicated to the genre.)

Joe "Bondi" Beach

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Aug 23, 2015, 8:47:24 PM8/23/15
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On Sun, Aug 23, 2015 at 5:15 PM, Crumbly Writer <crumbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
OK, here's a dilemma. I'm considering another 'brother and sister get involved, only to discover they were both adopted' story. Do you think that the moral landscape has changed enough I might have trouble with it? (I did it once before, where they were actually brother in sister who knew each other in a past life, and it never got a twitch from the censor squad, mostly because I introduced it slowly, so the only people who'd complain would already have jumped ship.) The whole 'they were adopted' aspect is central to the plot, so it wasn't added to get around the issue.

Joe, that's why I said 'the only one I know of is ASSTR'. (By the way, ASSTR is an American company and is the ONLY recognized site running those stories on a regular basis, though several authors have personal sites dedicated to the genre.)

Here's some possibilities:

http://onehandedwriters.com/tag/pseudo-incest/ (May be only step-sibling relations.)

Selena Kitt in her Excitica seems to allow incest, or at least incest fantasies. I think she still bans underage sex.

bb
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Crumbly Writer

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Aug 23, 2015, 8:59:09 PM8/23/15
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Amazon has a fairly strict 'no incest' policy, but my previous story slipped by. I think the secret is simply not jumping into the action too soon (at least until your audience is committed to the story). However, I'm not sure whether everyone is getting more or less uptight about it as time passes.

Gábor, Korpás

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Aug 23, 2015, 11:49:07 PM8/23/15
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My 11th story is step-siblings story..........

Zine

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Aug 24, 2015, 7:15:58 AM8/24/15
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CW,

Maybe no one complained to Amazon, because no one read it?

Zine.

Zine

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Aug 24, 2015, 7:24:39 AM8/24/15
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bb,

Of course. And waiting to see the general reaction to the first episode of Public Morals.

Zine.

Tim Merrigan

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Aug 24, 2015, 7:52:39 AM8/24/15
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Unless it's been changed and I haven't noticed, the age limit on SoL is 14.

Tim Merrigan

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Aug 24, 2015, 8:02:10 AM8/24/15
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MrDouble.

Gábor, Korpás

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Aug 24, 2015, 12:09:41 PM8/24/15
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I can mention only about Literotica's rule which is strict on the 18 years old rule. However I met such story on Literotica which was on the limit of their rule. It depends on the lector personality which near limit stories get green light there. I mentioned here Stangstar06 had wrong experience with this rule, when the background of his story started from the High School time without graphic sex. But some other authors got green light from a Literotica lector (other lector) with similar age background story (also without graphic sex). The average age for the start of the sex is between 16-19 years for the majority of the youth in North America and Europe and I think a honest rule would be between 16-18 years for both participants (no teenager-adult graphic sex) and in this case only the authors could be allowed graphic sex. I think it is easier to maintain the strict 18 years old limit by a lot of story collections than something selection rule (two teenagers yes(between 16-18) , but no adult teenager). I think the 18 years built in me so I will not change much in my stories...............

Duna
 

Deadly Ernest

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Aug 24, 2015, 12:41:00 PM8/24/15
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Duna,

Think you've got a problem, I recently found out the Australian feds passed a law amendment a few years back that makes a mockery of many other laws.

Age of consent for sex is 16 y/o except where the old is in authority of the younger or there are commercial concerns, then it's 18 y/o. Age of youngest participant in graphic sex stories or images is 16 y/o. That's the age for all the state and federal laws on sex. However, the amendment sets
 the age for graphic sex for a story or image sent over the communications system as 18 y/o.

So you can write a story of 16 y/o having sex, print it out and mail it, but you can't legally email it!! bloody wankers.

Now that's weird laws for you.

Ernest

Joe "Bondi" Beach

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Aug 24, 2015, 2:19:49 PM8/24/15
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On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
MrDouble.

I didn't know he (or it) was still in business.

bb
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Joe "Bondi" Beach

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Aug 24, 2015, 2:26:25 PM8/24/15
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On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Joe "Bondi" Beach <joe.bon...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
MrDouble.

I didn't know he (or it) was still in business.

Forgot to ask: Is it all pedo? Has anyone posted there? If yes, what was your experience?

bb
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Tim Merrigan

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Aug 24, 2015, 5:12:31 PM8/24/15
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On 2015-08-24 11:26, Joe "Bondi" Beach wrote:


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Joe "Bondi" Beach <joe.bon...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon, Aug 24, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
MrDouble.

I didn't know he (or it) was still in business.

Forgot to ask: Is it all pedo? Has anyone posted there? If yes, what was your experience?

bb


Not quite all, and yes, it's still active, though he has moved his servers to Belize.

perv...@gmail.com

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Aug 26, 2015, 11:22:36 PM8/26/15
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I've seen this argument play out in numerous places, with various rules-lawyering type scenarios concocted to try to spite the rules.

You've got your vampire girl that was turned at 15 but has lived 200 years since, your alien girl that is 30 in earth years and adult for her species but looks like a human 12 year old, your android girl that was built to look adult and programmed to act adult but was only activated 3 years ago.

The best answer, I think, is to ask what age actress would be hired to play this character in a live action film. It's pedophile bait if it LOOKS young, regardless of the actual age in the narrative.

Another ploy that came up recently at another site is stating a character is 18 but then having them be totally naive about sex, which again is clearly meant to play to the pedophile fetish. Since we all know just saying a character is 18 is just as likely to mean they aren't but the author is dodging the rules. (I have a paperback incest erotica book that hilariously has "eighteen" in a different typeface in various places in the book, clearly a pre-computer age physical copy and paste job was done to "fix" the book.)

Frankly I have a story planned where the protagonists are high school students and I don't really figure on them being in the senior class, but I also realized that if I mentioned their ages it would only be for the sake of mentioning their ages, so I may as well just not. And then dump the traditional "all characters are 18" disclaimer in for the places that require it.

James Brown

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Aug 27, 2015, 4:06:00 PM8/27/15
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"You've got your vampire girl that was turned at 15 but has lived 200 years since, your alien girl that is 30 in earth years and adult for her species but looks like a human 12 year old"

This discussion reminds me of a thought I had the other day.   Sex robots are the next big thing according to some folks on the internet...   We already have the "real dolls", how soon will it be before someone starts making sex dolls that look like kids?   And then how many milliseconds after that will the laws banning them be enacted?  

Of course maybe they are illegal already, though I think a solid argument could be made that, as no actual children are harmed and it provides an outlet that would help to keep kids from being hurt that they should be allowed...

--

Crumbly Writer

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Aug 27, 2015, 4:06:34 PM8/27/15
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Nice explanation, Perv!

Tim Merrigan

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Aug 27, 2015, 4:39:32 PM8/27/15
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On 2015-08-26 20:22, perv...@gmail.com wrote:
and adult for her species but looks like a human 12 year old

Kinda like humans, using the parameters applied to every other species on the planet, where the dividing line between juvenile and adult is sexual maturity, AKA puberty.

This discussion has nothing to do with biology, it's only discussing law.

related aside:  I heard a headline this morning about some men who were arrested for producing "child" porn films with 15 year old girls.  To which I respond, "What children?"  That was illegal, because the girls were underage, but unless those girls were horribly underdeveloped for their ages that wasn't child porn.

Deadly Ernest

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Aug 27, 2015, 6:04:07 PM8/27/15
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Don't know about as sex dolls, but back in the 1960s some companies started making 'true to life' dolls with genitals etc, and they got banned in many countries in the 1970s. Not sure if they've been made for a few decades.

Tim Merrigan

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Aug 27, 2015, 6:22:55 PM8/27/15
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I just did a Google search on "anatomically correct dolls" and they're still available for children, as well as as sex dolls for adults.

Wheezer

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Aug 28, 2015, 12:02:26 AM8/28/15