RE: I don't get the obsession...

[Switch Blayde]

Rape, both in real life and stories, is more about control than sex.

There are different flavors of rape in erotica, from knock-down physical rape to blackmail to mind control to consensual sex with a minor. The sex with minor flavor might not be a control one, but the others are.

Switch
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> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 19:51:05 -0800
> From: shadowru...@gmail.com
> To: storie...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: I don't get the obsession...
>
> with rape in the stories on this site. Even some of the best stories on here tend to throw in the rape scenario. I get the different strokes for different folks mentality but is the rape genre really that popular in erotic fiction in general or just something that caught on in this site? Literotica is really the only other site I've read erotic fiction for the most part.
>
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[Crumbly Writer]

I never understood it either, but then I had a bit of a run in with a girlfriend, who wanted to play out a rape fantasy without any hint it was an interest of hers ahead of time. I was so turned off by the idea of hurting a woman I was in love with I lost my erection and the relationship mysteriously ended without much of an explanation the next week. It always bugged me, but I didn't think seriously about it until I tried to 'friend' her years later with a very generic 'how's life going' type of message--nothing forward at all, just curious how she was doing. She sent back a scathing attack and promptly closed out her email and never again reconnected with the college website which was how I'd discovered her.

Now THAT reaction bugged me, and the 'failed' rape fantasy haunted me. That's when I wrote (about a year ago) an 'alternate' rape fantasy (where a guy is forced to rape someone against his will. However, since I approached it from a non-fantasy, 'how horribly is this' perspective, it turned out terribly dark. At that point I set it aside, planning to tackle it again, figuring it needed a little more 'lust' in order to make the rape part play out, but not sure how to approach it in a way that would satisfy me as a writer. So far, I haven't tried to redo it yet.

But I'm still just as confused as you are about it, as I just don't get the whole 'I want to control you and force you to do shit you hate' fantasy any more than I 'get' the 'force me to do horrible things and I'll love you even more' fantasy. I guess I'm just from a different world where you just ask for what you want, rather than playing head games.

But rape fantasies are still one of the biggest sellers in erotic fiction, both for men and women, so I'm guessing that we're in the minority Switch. I guess sometimes you're just stuck behind the 8-ball when you're the only one NOT suffering from a repressed, restrictive upbringing.

[Deadly Ernest]

Switch, CW,

I doubt you'd get it any more than you would fully understand people into being submissive or dominating - in all of them it's about the 'being in control' or the 'being controlled' that somehow gets their motor running. Having said that, lots of people want to be in control or be controlled, some at work, some at home, and some in bed; it varies. I understand enough to know that people are affected by the two states, but not the deep reasoning why for most of it. For some, the being controlled is all about not having to be responsible or make decision etc, for many it's other things.

Ernest

[Sagacious]

Rape is one of the codes I opt out of as well. I did do one story that involved a rape, but the focus of the story was the girl trying to move on with her life afterwards. I had a couple of readers upset that I described the rape, but to me there was no erotica to it, just a plain facts type description. 

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[Tom Frost]

I certainly understand the interest in exploring questions of consent. And straight-up rape certainly puts things in stark relief. I've written about both in various incarnations.

In accord with Sturgeon's Law, 90% of what's written on the subject is crap and there won't be any agreement on what part constitutes the other ten percent. It's a charged, politicized topic and one of the last genuinely taboo fantasies for those who imagine themselves as the victims and those who fantasize about perpetrating the act.Even in otherwise open-minded forums where people generally live by YKINMK, people feel justified in attacking anyone who would dare express arousal at the notion of forcing and being forced.

So of course we write about it. We explore it - sometimes with the sensitivity of a sledgehammer wrapped in a dozen condoms. This is SOL after all. We write here for free and are paid in feedback. If you get it right or you get it wrong, you certainly hear about it when you start exploring themes of consent.

--Tom

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[Switch Blayde]

CW, Ernest,

I never said I didn't understand it. I simply don't like the physical rape (or BDSM for that matter because pain turns me off). A major theme in my stories is control -- or non-violent forced sex (that's why I use the "non-consent" code but not the "rape" one). The story that got me into writing erotica was a control story called "The Humiliation of Jane."

My novel has the hero blackmailing the heroine to make her have sex. But in the case of my novel, that has nothing to do with sex. It's a revenge story. My two most highly rated stories on SOL are non-consent ("The Preacher's Wife" and "Forced Lust").

What has always surprised me was that women get turned on by my stories. I used to think they were men pretending to be women, but I've chatted with some with their web cams on. So there are women out there who want to be controlled.

Switch
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---

Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2013 21:39:49 -0800
From: ernest....@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: I don't get the obsession...

[Switch Blayde]

And speaking about fantasy power stories, look at the stories/movies/novels about someone in power who controls someone or people or society, whether it be a politician, a military figure, a gangster, a rich person, a spouse, a boss, etc.

[Deadly Ernest]

Switch,

It's because it's the control issue that I mention the dom / sub and bdsm stuff in my earlier reply. Bondage / Discipline / Sado / Masochism inly the second pair involve any real pain, and not that many are into the M aspect. Many in the sub side of bondage and / or discipline don't like pain but will accept a little because their partners like to inflict a little (something I don't understand at all). For some reason there are people who WANT to be controlled, but there are more people who just ACCEPT being controlled, and there are those who WANT to control. They all mix and match in many ways in the dom / sub B & D aspects of sexuality and life. I've read about a lot of this stuff in real life and studies etc, spoken with people in the various scenes, and have even experienced some aspects of the issue in life - - but I still don't understand it at all, and doubt anyone really does.

However, a large part of the issue is fantasies and how people respond to fantasies while they think they're unattainable, too. I know a couple of very imposing ladies who really get off on a man who can dominate them and make them do as they want them to at home - but they can't explain why they do.

Ernest

[rbhol...@charter.net]

The problems arise when people can't separate Fantasy from Reality.   Like so many writers I have read online have stated the story is a fantasy and anyone thinking of doing those acts in reality should get professional help immediately.  A fantasy can be fun at times like in my own experience.  I have many times dreamed of getting Revenge on my childhood abuser, but luckily its only a dream not a reality for me.  The dream/fantasy lets me live with what happened when I had no control over what happened and for that matter didn't even understand what was happening to me.   The only good parts for me is that it forced me to come up with my own personal code of conduct in many areas.  Top of the list is the requirement that both sides have to  "Understand what is happening and Want it to happen".  Notice I haven't included a calendar year factor and that is due to one person I got to know when I was institutionalized to prevent me getting my revenge.   A female patient on another ward (Physical Age 30) mental age was only around 5 due to some kind of problem due to a past injury.  One of the "Male" ward attendants used his pass keys to gain access to her ward and screwed her.  His statement when caught by other patients was it was their word against his and since they were Mental Patients (with no legal rights), his word was what would count.  There was nothing the patients could do legally about that person's actions.  He did wind up in prison however as a result of those patients actions in response to the deed.

[Jeremy Kane]

While it's a complete turnoff for me I think the most jarring thing was how popular rape stories are on the site not that they exist at all. I mean if you walked into a bookstore and 50% of the shelves were all rape related it would stand out right? That's why I was curious if it was a site thing or just the prevailing theme in erotic fiction in general.

[Tom Frost]

There have certainly been other genres and media where rape became a prevalent theme at least for a time. Turkish, Japanese, and Hong Kong cinema all went through periods where rape became almost de rigeur in any film involving adult themes To this day, it seems like every third Bollywood film involves a rape or attempted rape even though nudity has been more or less banished. American cinema went through a brief fascination with rape post-Hays code in the 1960-70s.

I assume your "50%" was meant to be hyperbolic, but I was curious as to where the numbers actually were. I couldn't find any obvious way to query SOL's whole body, but the 50 most recently updated stories include 6 with rape or nc tags (12%) and 3 additional stories with no rape/nc codes, but reluc/coer (6%.)

RAINN reports that approximated 17.6% of women will actually suffer a rape or attempted rape in her lifetime. The subject appears in 18% of the most recently updated SOL stories. I would argue that it's not over-represented here.

--Tom

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Jeremy Kane <shadowru...@gmail.com> wrote:

While it's a complete turnoff for me I think the most jarring thing was how popular rape stories are on the site not that they exist at all. I mean if you walked into a bookstore and 50% of the shelves were all rape related it would stand out right? That's why I was curious if it was a site thing or just the prevailing theme in erotic fiction in general.

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[Switch Blayde]

I don't think the "rape" story code is as prevalent as you think.

Switch
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> Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 09:11:56 -0800
> From: shadowru...@gmail.com

> To: storie...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: I don't get the obsession...
>

> While it's a complete turnoff for me I think the most jarring thing was how popular rape stories are on the site not that they exist at all. I mean if you walked into a bookstore and 50% of the shelves were all rape related it would stand out right? That's why I was curious if it was a site thing or just the prevailing theme in erotic fiction in general.
>

[Jeremy Kane]

Definitely hyperbole but more because you'd have to inflate the numbers to stand out in a bookstore vs a category search on a site.

I'm not sure of a way to get actual statistics on this site especially since it's not just the rape tag that I consider rape. Just looking at the level of consent portion of category search I'd consider most of them rape. Regardless I was just basing it on months of using the site and thinking wow that's a lot of rape. Obviously not a scientific method. It stood out for me obviously but it could just be me.

[Jeremy Kane]

Anyways the reason I originally deleted this soon after posting it was I thought it read more confrontational and as a knock against the site which wasn't my intent. It actually generated a pretty good discussion between you guys so all's well that ends well I guess.

[Tom Frost]

Just a note: the SOL forum (as I was recently reminded) actually exists across transport mechanisms including e-mail. Deleting a forum post won't save you. ;)

--Tom

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Jeremy Kane <shadowru...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyways the reason I originally deleted this soon after posting it was I thought it read more confrontational and as a knock against the site which wasn't my intent. It actually generated a pretty good discussion between you guys so all's well that ends well I guess.

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[Razer Shadowjammer]

I know what you mean about the rape seeming to take over or becoming way more prevalent. There have been weeks at a time where I will look through the 'New Stories' section and it will just be story after story of raping this person, raping that person. Forcing this person to have sex, that person being forced to have sex. Of course you have the fantasy of the person enjoying it in the end, and all that crap, and although very unrealistic, is somewhat understandable. What creeps me out is the people that the whole point for them is the other person NOT enjoying it, psychologically damaging the person to get their own rocks off. Also the people that get off on the idea of killing someone while raping them. And, of course there's, the whole, "Oh, I'd never do it in real life," defense that everyone always throws around. However, if that's 90% of what they write about, it stands to reason the only reason they'd never do it in real life is because they know they'd spend the rest of they're life as someone's cum dumpster in prison, if they lived. As a wise person once said, 'As a man thinks in his heart, so he is.' He may be constrained by the fact that he couldn't get away with it, but heaven forbid you or anyone you care about be in their power if they believed they could.

And just for a realistic example of what happens when people suddenly don't have the threat of prison, etc hanging over them, consider the LA riots and what happened in the Superdome after Katrina. Yes several of the people were caught a jailed, but many more got away with it. Many more people than I am really comfortable with, their morals depend on how likely they are to get caught, than an actual upstanding character.

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Jeremy Kane <shadowru...@gmail.com> wrote:

with rape in the stories on this site. Even some of the best stories on here tend to throw in the rape scenario. I get the different strokes for different folks mentality but is the rape genre really that popular in erotic fiction in general or just something that caught on in this site? Literotica is really the only other site I've read erotic fiction for the most part.

[Crumbly Writer]

While I 'understand' the control issues in rape fantasy, and the attractions in BDSM, what I 'don't get' is the appeal. I guess I could see a big wig who tells everyone what to do to be stood up to, and have some woman piss all over him without listening to him whine about it. But what confuses me is the utter lack of variability in many of these genres.

It's not so much 'bad writing' that they all sound the same, as if you change the basic script readers will actively get pissed. My brother, who I've mentioned before, was a well known 'performance artist' in NYC, and part of what made him so famous is that he'd walk out at 140 pounds, be tried up, a bigger guy would come out and start whipping him, and he'd giggle like a little girl, thoroughly enjoying himself. THAT in itself unnerved all the big bruiser tough SM crowds. He managed to 'break the expected' rules in a way that got them to think, whereas normally if you vary the standard rules of conduct in the genre you just get yelled at.

Personally, reading yet another 'I seduced and f*cked a 5-year-old who trusted me', or another 'he grabbed me in the dark and began fondling me and I loved it' just turns me off because I can't see the appeal in something you've read hundreds of time. It seems the readers 'get off' on the consistency, sort of like how someone enjoys eating Black Cherry EVERY TIME they eat ice cream. After a while, it becomes the same as vanilla. There's just no variation.

When I read fiction, I want to see and experience something I haven't before. I don't mind reading about rape, but I want to come away from it with either a better understanding of the act itself, or of the characters involved. What I can't understand is the attraction in reading a story about rape where you experience absolutely nothing new.

I guess it goes into what you get out of reading. Do you read to escape life? Or to live a life you can't find in your everyday life? Or, do you read stories which are comfortably familiar depictions of the same exact kink, time and again.

If I could read a story that would help me understand why my first rape-fantasy experience fell apart, I'd LOVE it. But most rape-fantasies don't go there, since they're written for people who DON'T want the story to go in those uncomfortable directions.

[Deadly Ernest]

On this side issue of sudden flurries in story types, I've noticed (in the past) times when the majority of new stories and updated stories have been in one genre group - which varies at times. The genres concerned at different times have been - rape, incest, gay / lesbian, cheating, revenge, bdsm, pedo / lolita, MC, magic, vampire / werewolf / etc, - the more vanila options don't seem to come in the flurries the others do as they seem more routine in their appearances.

[Joe "Bondi" Beach]

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Crumbly Writer <crumbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I could read a story that would help me understand why my first rape-fantasy experience fell apart, I'd LOVE it. But most rape-fantasies don't go there, since they're written for people who DON'T want the story to go in those uncomfortable directions.

Heh. Stories of happy incest families [raises hand here] kind of fall into the same pot. Or toilet.

But then, fantasy is fantasy. I eschew reality in my story premise. Me and Robert Heinlein. We're in this together. Or maybe not. After all, he's dead. I'm not.

"What if ..." It's the only story prompt you need.

Happy Boxing Day to all.

bb

-- 

2013 National Novel Writing Month winner (along with 42,000 others).

In addition to my stories at Storiesonline.net, I'm posting my stories and stories by others, and images, on my Tumblr blog (NSFW).

[Tom Frost]

Everything is grist for the mill and some of us don't hesitate to write squirmy, awkward failures into our stories. You never know, CW. ;)

--Tom

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[Switch Blayde]

> However, if that's 90% of what they write about, it stands to reason the only reason they'd never do it in real life is because they know they'd spend the rest of they're life

So Stephen King would do the things he writes about?

Switch
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---

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:53:08 -0600

Subject: Re: I don't get the obsession...

From: shadow...@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com

[Tom Frost]

Yeah. I've got to call bullshit on that one, too. But there's so much bullshit in this thread, it's hard to know where to start.

--Tom

[Gemini1766]

BDSM is not what you apparently think it is.

Sadism is about giving pain. Masochism is about receiving pain. Domination is based on the idea that it is via consent, not just dragging someone off and making them an unwilling servant/submissive/slave. Same goes for submission. The women I know who are submissive to a Dom (general use term) are usually quite strong and capable. Few actual Doms are weak, but there are a few out there who get into being a dom to attempt to be what they are not. It doesn't work out well at all, really. Bondage is simply great fun for many of us.

What you have to realize is that it's a case of "it works for me" when it comes to each individual. A masochist will tell you that not all pain is good pain. Falling and getting hurts is not good pain. A well applied crop with the right person is a different story. I know submissives who are sadists and love beating someone's body black and blue - but only with their full consent. I know Doms who are masochists who love a good beating, but never mistake them for a sub or slave. We come in all kinds of flavors. The problem is that those not intimately engaged in BDSM, with a partner, as part of a group, or community, really is not going to understand. People get their ideas solely based on crap like "Fifty Shades of Grey" and it's wrong. That book is not about BDSM, possibly kink, but most definitely a story about an asshole rich boy and an idiot woman in an abusive relationship. The Secretary is decent, but not quite right either, it leaves a lot out.

I got my start when I was asked to be someone's Master. I was always what I am now, but I understand myself better, thanks to her. Some people need (not desire) to submit to the will and direction of another. The extent of it is different for each person. Some very powerful people are submissives - it's the only way they can let go of their stresses of everyday life in high profile positions.

I can go on and on about this. I do not have the "wun twue wai" and anyone who claims they do it the right/proper way and others aren't is full of shit. I can only do things the right/proper way for me; not for anyone else. That's true of everyone who is into BDSM.

As far as rape fantasies go, many (a great many) women have the fantasies; that's all they are though, fantasies. Well, mostly. There are a small percentage of them who love the idea and want it to happen. With someone like that it would be a case of "consensual non-consent).

The easiest thing to do is simply avoid reading or writing about such things if you're not comfortable with them. Or, learn to write about them but do your research first and get it right. Intelligent Doms and subs negotiate before getting into any play, let alone a deep relationship. They discuss the things they consider hard limits (never fucking go there) and other limits (you can push, but I may call my safeword). If there is no negotiation, no agreement(s), then it is not what can be properly considered a D/s or M/s relationship, but instead is an abusive relationship. A sub knows they can leave anytime, and the smart ones do. An abused person typically sticks around and takes it because they have been conditioned to believe they can't do better.

[Crumbly Writer]

Good points, and sorry about the silly slip of the tongue about BDSM and whips. Stupid move on my part. My point wasn't that I expect all stories to be reality based hard luck stories, only that I appreciate creativity and insight. I certainly don't mind 'story flurries' in whatever genre, as they're usually produced by one writer's new take on a genre pushing other writers to take it in other new directions. That's what I like to see, a group of people all exploring something staid in new and unexpected directions. That's what the cubists, pointilists and the other 'schools' of art (and writing) are about. They're groups of individuals who each have a different take on a current theme. Sort of like all the teenagers writing about teenage vampire/werewolf romances. The magic is wonderful, but it only bears up for so long before it begins to collapse of its own weight.

My point, and I did have one (if I can find it under all this verbiage), is that magic in literature--any literature, whether classical, romance, sci-fi or hard core porn--comes when you change the gist of the story and take it in unexpected directions, and reveal your characters to be something other than what everyone expected. That's why there are so many 'newbie' stories exist. The new guy who discovers he's into pain, or subjugation or little boys and who goes in a different direction than the people who have been writing those stories for years.

The story doesn't have to end badly in order for it to be insightful, but by changing the nature of the story partway thru, and giving us an insight into the character's psyche reveals much more about what prompts the people who are in the field than does someone merely acting out an established role. What I'm arguing for is a combination of creativity and insight. It's a hard combination to pull off, but when it works, it's Golden. Sometimes golden brown, depending upon the genre, but golden nevertheless.

[Razer Shadowjammer]

If he thought he could get away with it, maybe? A lot of Stephen Kings stuff is supernatural, not all, but a lot. If he had a supernatural ability that allowed him to do the stuff he writes about... would he do it? Who knows. What we're talking about here is sex, though, which is different from regular writing. Stephen King writes to scare people, and he does sometimes scare himself. Erotic writers write to turn people on and about what turns THEM on. Are we seeing a difference here? I'm admittedly not a big reader of Stephen King, but even though the book may be titled after the monster, the monster is not the hero, and usually gets it in the end. The stories that have been showing up on SOL are about people raping and raping and killing and killing and never ever ever even coming close to getting caught, that being what turns the author, reader, or both on. There's a significant difference between writing a story meant to scare you, where the hero wins in the end, and being scared by it, and a story about raping and killing a 3 year old and getting away with it, and being turned on by it. Although with the new SOL rules they've had to raise that to 13.

[rbhol...@charter.net]

Well maybe I shouldn't say it but I tend to avoid reading stories where rape or any other form of forced sex is a major part of the story.   I will admit its because of my personal experience and its lifelong effects on my actions which at times have definitely bordered on the out side of the law.  I have helped others over the years, but its funny the only question in my mind was a simple question: "Am I doing the right thing to help them?"   Sometimes legal methods are wrong other times they are the correct action.  The laws are a great guide but I just use it as a guide not an end in itself.   I personally believe everyone knows the difference between whats Right or Wrong about any given action or situation.  The trouble as I see it is all those a-holes who want to blame someone or something else for their actions instead of taking the blame for themselves.  What I call the "Scapegoat syndrome".

It would be real nice to be able to use that excuse I admit at times in my own life, but why bother its just the good and bad in every life.  Without the bad, how would we appreciate the good.

[Tom Frost]

I've written about a lot of things, many of which I've found physically arousing, but wouldn't do under any circumstances in the real world.

I wrote about a man arranging a surprise gangbang for his cheating wife and in the climatic scene, peed on her in contempt. I wrote it with the goal of finding the appeal in those subjects and did a pretty good job of making it arousing, I would under no circumstance want to do either of those things - even if I were in a position to escape the consequences and can't imagine being more attracted to than repulsed by someone who really wanted that done to her.

I wrote about a man taking advantage of a teenage girl who'd been put under mind control. I found it arousing. And truthfully, if I had mind control, I might use it on the pretty barista at Starbucks, but only to get her to pay attention and get my damned order right because, honestly, she's a bit flaky.

I wrote about a man who got involved in local politics to keep from being arrested for his ongoing relationship with his sixteen year-old babysitter. I found the core fantasy in the story arousing, but in truth I abhor local politics and most days, I'm happier if I don't have to talk to anyone under 25, much less have sex with them.

I have a story in my hopper involving a man who one day snaps and defenestrates an obnoxious bond trader in a tenth-floor men's room. I spent five years running into that fucking bond trader in that fucking men's room. Somehow, our bladders were synchronized. I fantasized many times about throwing him out that window. Half the year that window was open and I'm pretty sure it's not actually a crime to murder bond traders. I found great catharsis from fantasizing about it, but I wouldn't really enjoy doing it.

I've written rape scenes and I've been aroused by rape scenes. They fall into the same category as wife-peeing, EMC, babysitter-sex, local politics and bond-trader defenestration - things I can find arousing in the voyeuristic, imaginary world of fiction, but would never want to do in the real world - consequences or no.

--Tom

[Razer Shadowjammer]

Yes, now read back over what you just wrote. You wrote 'A'... singular... story

 about something and found it arousing, if only mildly. You then wrote 'A'... again singular... story about something else, and found it arousing. The trend is, you find 'A' story arousing in passing. That is not a running theme, that is not almost all you write about, and is thereby different than the situation I described. I've read and written some out there things myself, and been turned on by them, but they are not a running theme in my writing, nor yours apparently, though I must admit I don't think I've read much of your writing. If the only erotica you write about is about raping and killing, I don't care if you're the pastor of your church, I don't want to be or have anyone I care about near you for any length of time. Not that I'd know it necessarily, and that's another concern. Who knows who is the next school shooter, or kidnapper, rapist or whatever? People seem to be losing the ability to differentiate between fantasy and reality, and their fantasies are getting downright scary.

[Tom Frost]

Razer--

If it makes you feel better, I wouldn't like to have anyone I care about near you for any length of time either. That kind of accusation-through-assumption is what powers so much bigotry and persecution throughout the world. Maybe you wouldn't hate or persecute my loved ones, but you do seem to be writing about it an awful lot.

==Tom

[Razer Shadowjammer]

And how do perceive that I am hating or persecuting anyone? Because I don't trust someone who gets off on raping and killing others? Because it's been shown that quite a bit of the population will act on their most base desires anytime they think that they can get away with it? I am an advocate of being prepared and protecting yourself and your own. You can feel free to allow the guy that has a hard drive full of child snuff stories to babysit your small children, I will not. You may feel free to allow your wife to drink around the guy that gets off on the idea drugging and raping people while they don't know what's going on, I will not. Not allowing some one who I have any reason not to trust access to my family, is not hating or persecuting them, it is merely being cautious and the protector I swore to be when I married my wife and adopted my son. Doing that based on something like skin color would definitely be hating and persecuting, but skin color doesn't indicate anything about the person. What they read, write, and fantasize about does, and being cautious of any access they have to my family is just smart. I believe that what a person desires in their heart has a good possibility of getting into reality if given the chance, a one off or two can be taken into account as a wild passing kink. But a determined bent toward a certain dangerous behavior is plenty enough reason to stay away. Put them in jail? No. Persecute them? No. Allow them access to my family? Hell no.

[Invid Fan]

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 11:03:48 PM UTC-5, Joe "Bondi" Beach wrote:

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Crumbly Writer <crumbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I could read a story that would help me understand why my first rape-fantasy experience fell apart, I'd LOVE it. But most rape-fantasies don't go there, since they're written for people who DON'T want the story to go in those uncomfortable directions.

Heh. Stories of happy incest families [raises hand here] kind of fall into the same pot. Or toilet.

And when a story stops so the author can give his two page lecture on how incest is OK, most readers understandably skip over it.

Regarding CW's question, the closest I've seen is the "unpublished" bondage story "The Lottery Winner" by Roger Plowman. Rich guy advertises for slave girls who agree to be available for rape. At one point, he tells someone that for the women it's a way for them not to take responsibility for enjoying sex. They are being forced, so they never have to worry about not having said "no".

[Joe "Bondi" Beach]

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Invid Fan <invi...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 11:03:48 PM UTC-5, Joe "Bondi" Beach wrote:

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Crumbly Writer <crumbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I could read a story that would help me understand why my first rape-fantasy experience fell apart, I'd LOVE it. But most rape-fantasies don't go there, since they're written for people who DON'T want the story to go in those uncomfortable directions.

Heh. Stories of happy incest families [raises hand here] kind of fall into the same pot. Or toilet.

And when a story stops so the author can give his two page lecture on how incest is OK, most readers understandably skip over it.

Heh. Now that's a buzzkill. Worse yet, it's [gasp] telling, not showing.

 

Regarding CW's question, the closest I've seen is the "unpublished" bondage story "The Lottery Winner" by Roger Plowman. Rich guy advertises for slave girls who agree to be available for rape. At one point, he tells someone that for the women it's a way for them not to take responsibility for enjoying sex. They are being forced, so they never have to worry about not having said "no".

Hmm. The old "When does 'No' mean 'No,' and when does it mean 'Maybe' or 'Yes' question.** Reminds me of the hand-on-boob issue in high school. Sometimes she really meant 'No,' and sometimes she meant, 'I'm not a bad girl and I don't want you to think I am, so I'm going to say 'No' but it's OK [Note: Not 'I *want* you to do it'] if you keep on doing what you're doing.'

**I'm talking about real cases of ambiguity that didn't involve booze or drugs. (Yes, there were some of those.) Ones where the hand went where it wanted to go and she ended up very happy.

bb

-- 

[Zine]

Razer,

Oh, I thought the minimum age is 14.  Still, it takes all kinds of sickos to spin a planet and apparently they have inalienable rights.

Regarding "the chicken or the egg" question posed earlier in this thread, one axiom is, "thought precedes action."  I think it's fair to conclude that authors think about what they write, and it seems that at least a few think too much about it while others think too little.  Another postulate is, "people are capable of justifying anything to themselves."  I don't know that there's a correlation between writing or thinking and doing, but I suspect that if an author's fantasies lay in the criminal direction, then writing about it is probably risky business regarding issues of wellness and staying firmly within the law.

Zine.

On Friday, December 27, 2013 10:58:25 AM UTC-5, Razer wrote:

[Razer Shadowjammer]

I thought the age was 13, but if I'm wrong it's not like I'm often trying to push that envelope. I am not speaking of infringing on their inalienable rights, nowhere in our constitution does their inalienable rights extend to access to my family. And I have to say I'm slightly suspicious of someone who says that they'd have no problems leaving a vulnerable person around someone who fantasizes a lot about victimizing that person, or that kind of person. We don't drink anymore, but there were very very few people that I would leave my wife with if she'd been drinking, there are even fewer people that I will leave my son with totally unattended. Why? Because you hear about it all the time, some family friend or relative has betrayed the trust placed in them and done harm to the person they were trusted with. And that's not even knowing for sure that the person had been fantasizing about it before hand. If I knew for a fact that this was a fantasy for that person I'd be a fool to let them have that kind of access. If other people don't see it that way, more power to them, when their family is victimized they have to accept blame in that themselves, because they let themselves believe that if someone is fantasizing about it, doesn't mean they're going to do it. It isn't a guarantee, true, but it's also not something I'd be willing to take a chance on.

[Joe "Bondi" Beach]

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Razer Shadowjammer <shadow...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

. . . because they let themselves believe that if someone is fantasizing about it, doesn't mean they're going to do it. It isn't a guarantee, true, but it's also not something I'd be willing to take a chance on.

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Razer,

Regarding "the chicken or the egg" question posed earlier in this thread, one axiom is, "thought precedes action."

Not a guarantee they'll do it, and "thought precedes action," but not always or necessarily. I think a lot---probably too much---about my weight and about eating better and exercising more and looking better and, you know, I make a little progress here and there, but mostly not much changes. Maybe I should think harder?

That's the trouble: when does the thought lead to action? And there's another problem with this argument: what's the connection between fantasy and action? It's not a clear one, that's for sure.

That said, if I found out one of my kid's teachers had a bunch of kiddie porn, images or text, on his computer, I'd worry. Perhaps unfairly or unreasonably, but I'd still worry.

Lust in the heart. Often better kept there.

bb

-- 

[Razer Shadowjammer]

Joe,

I don't know where thought and action cross over. My point in all this is that if I can help it at all, it won't be with my family. You made mention that you think about exercising but you never really get around to it, that is immediate suffering for a nebulous good feeling that you're fairly sure is out there. There are people who exercise and diet and do all the right things, and their bodies never improve much. So many people say I'm alright where I am and let it go. The situation is actually reversed with what we're dealing with, there's the immediate good feeling of indulging their 'kink', tempered by the nebulous consequences that are out there, some people get away with this stuff for years before they get caught, some actually never get caught before they die, and then for most people's thought process, they've escaped justice.

If I found out that my son's teacher had a ton of child snuff stories on his computer at home would I demand he be fired? No, as much as I don't like it, he's got a legal medium for his particular kink and I'm 'okay' with that. Am I going to leave my child in his class? Hell no. Is my child going to be participating in anything he has a supervisory role in? Again, hell no. If people like Tom think that it's perfectly alright to leave their children with someone who fantasizes about raping and killing them in charge of their safety, he still has his job and they can be happy together until he snaps, if he does. But when/if he does my son won't be around to be one of his potential victims.

--

[Sterling]

"What creeps me out is the people that the whole point for them is the other person NOT enjoying it, psychologically damaging the person to get their own rocks off. Also the people that get off on the idea of killing someone while raping them. And, of course there's, the whole, "Oh, I'd never do it in real life," defense that everyone always throws around. However, if that's 90% of what they write about, it stands to reason the only reason they'd never do it in real life is because they know they'd spend the rest of they're life as someone's cum dumpster in prison, if they lived. As a wise person once said, 'As a man thinks in his heart, so he is.' He may be constrained by the fact that he couldn't get away with it, but heaven forbid you or anyone you care about be in their power if they believed they could."

Do you also believe that people who enjoy cheating stories would cheat if they could get away with it? Would men who watch guy flicks with lots of blowing things up actually blow things up if they wouldn't get caught?

I think your idea that only fear of getting caught gets in the way of living out a fantasy is fundamentally misguided. What about simple compassion for the person who they fully understand would be hurt if it were to become real?

Of potential interest here is a series of studies by Milton Diamond. Here's a link to one of them:

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-effects-of-pornography.html

He studied a bunch of societies where pornography was hard to come by, and then there was some social change and it became very easy to get it -- including child porn. One might expect that the people who were eager to look at this stuff might be induced to copy it. But in fact sex crimes, including sex crimes against children, never went up noticeably, and they often went down. By way of comparison, other sorts of crimes often went up. Arguably a way to reduce child sex abuse would be to legalize virtual child porn (made without real children, noting they do wonders with animation etc. these days).

It's reasonable to expect that written stories would follow the same pattern as images. It seems on the whole more likely that writing and reading stories satisfies an urge to do bad things instead of making it more likely they'll act on it. 

I was more active here in 2010-2011, before the Great Canadian Hysteria Act led to the policy here with no sex with characters under age 14. Most of my stories involve younger characters, though some still qualify here (I write under "Sterling" both on SOL and on ASSTR).

Sterling

[Tim Merrigan]

On 2013-12-27 11:38, Joe "Bondi" Beach wrote:

On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Invid Fan <invi...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, December 26, 2013 11:03:48 PM UTC-5, Joe "Bondi" Beach wrote:

On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 7:55 PM, Crumbly Writer <crumbl...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I could read a story that would help me understand why my first rape-fantasy experience fell apart, I'd LOVE it. But most rape-fantasies don't go there, since they're written for people who DON'T want the story to go in those uncomfortable directions.

Heh. Stories of happy incest families [raises hand here] kind of fall into the same pot. Or toilet.

And when a story stops so the author can give his two page lecture on how incest is OK, most readers understandably skip over it.

Heh. Now that's a buzzkill. Worse yet, it's [gasp] telling, not showing.

I agree, the author should let that stand as a given.

Samuel Goldwyn:
"Pictures were made to entertain; if you want to send a message, call Western Union."

 

Regarding CW's question, the closest I've seen is the "unpublished" bondage story "The Lottery Winner" by Roger Plowman. Rich guy advertises for slave girls who agree to be available for rape. At one point, he tells someone that for the women it's a way for them not to take responsibility for enjoying sex. They are being forced, so they never have to worry about not having said "no".

Hmm. The old "When does 'No' mean 'No,' and when does it mean 'Maybe' or 'Yes' question.** Reminds me of the hand-on-boob issue in high school. Sometimes she really meant 'No,' and sometimes she meant, 'I'm not a bad girl and I don't want you to think I am, so I'm going to say 'No' but it's OK [Note: Not 'I *want* you to do it'] if you keep on doing what you're doing.'

**I'm talking about real cases of ambiguity that didn't involve booze or drugs. (Yes, there were some of those.) Ones where the hand went where it wanted to go and she ended up very happy.

bb

-- 

2013 National Novel Writing Month winner (along with 42,000 others).

In addition to my stories at Storiesonline.net, I'm posting my stories and stories by others, and images, on my Tumblr blog (NSFW).

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I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
      Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan 

[Tim Merrigan]

On 2013-12-26 20:50, Switch Blayde wrote:

> However, if that's 90% of what they write about, it stands to reason the only reason they'd never do it in real life is because they know they'd spend the rest of they're life

So Stephen King would do the things he writes about?

Switch
[stories at http://storiesonline.net/auth/Switch_Blayde ]
[Twitter at https://twitter.com/swblayde ]
[discussion group/blog at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/switch_blayde_group/ ]

I agree with you SB, but since much of what Stephen King writes about is physically impossible, that's probably not the best example.

 

---

Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:53:08 -0600
Subject: Re: I don't get the obsession...
From: shadow...@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com

I know what you mean about the rape seeming to take over or becoming way more prevalent. There have been weeks at a time where I will look through the 'New Stories' section and it will just be story after story of raping this person, raping that person. Forcing this person to have sex, that person being forced to have sex. Of course you have the fantasy of the person enjoying it in the end, and all that crap, and although very unrealistic, is somewhat understandable. What creeps me out is the people that the whole point for them is the other person NOT enjoying it, psychologically damaging the person to get their own rocks off. Also the people that get off on the idea of killing someone while raping them. And, of course there's, the whole, "Oh, I'd never do it in real life," defense that everyone always throws around. However, if that's 90% of what they write about, it stands to reason the only reason they'd never do it in real life is because they know they'd spend the rest of they're life as someone's cum dumpster in prison, if they lived. As a wise person once said, 'As a man thinks in his heart, so he is.' He may be constrained by the fact that he couldn't get away with it, but heaven forbid you or anyone you care about be in their power if they believed they could.

And just for a realistic example of what happens when people suddenly don't have the threat of prison, etc hanging over them, consider the LA riots and what happened in the Superdome after Katrina. Yes several of the people were caught a jailed, but many more got away with it. Many more people than I am really comfortable with, their morals depend on how likely they are to get caught, than an actual upstanding character.

On Tue, Dec 24, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Jeremy Kane <shadowru...@gmail.com> wrote:

with rape in the stories on this site. Even some of the best stories on here tend to throw in the rape scenario. I get the different strokes for different folks mentality but is the rape genre really that popular in erotic fiction in general or just something that caught on in this site? Literotica is really the only other site I've read erotic fiction for the most part.

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I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
      Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan 

[Tim Merrigan]

And I have to say I'm slightly suspicious of someone who says that they'd have no problems leaving a vulnerable person around someone who fantasizes a lot about victimizing that person, or that kind of person.

The only way to prevent that is to keep the "vulnerable" person locked in a cellar with no contact with the outside world.

If other people don't see it that way, more power to them, when their family is victimized they have to accept blame in that themselves, because they let themselves believe that if someone is fantasizing about it, doesn't mean they're going to do it.

Even if what they're fantasizing about is an paranoid and over protective "parent" who won't let their loved ones live their own lives?

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[Razer Shadowjammer]

I suppose I am a bit paranoid, possibly even overprotective. However, as a survivor of abuse, married to a survivor of abuse, I'm erring on the side of caution, and my wife is all for it. My son is too young to 'live his own life' he's allowed freedom inside the boundaries I set for him, as it should be with any child.

I'm always a bit confused why people seem to be so fired up about letting people live there own lives, if they're kidnapped, tortured, raped and killed, well that's just fine at least they lived their own life. I've stopped my nephew and my niece definitely, and my son, possibly, from being snatched off of the street by being overprotective. So call me what you want, I'll keep protecting my family however I deem necessary.

In response to the studies that say that people writing, collecting, whatever, these different kinds of porn, doesn't increase the activity; are you then claiming that someone just spontaneously decides they're going to snatch a kid off the street, rape and torture them and then kill them with no warning  or build up at all? Interestingly enough there are also studies that show that nearly every single one of the people that do that kind of thing start with stories and pictures, 'safe' and legal fantasies, first, before moving to actually doing it. The problem with 'studies', of course, is that you can find a study that says almost anything you want it to, because there have been plenty of studies that are paid to find certain things. As laymen, most of us won't know which studies are legit or not, given the amount of studies being done at any given time.

[Switch Blayde]

> Worse yet, it's [gasp] telling, not showing.

bb.

Actually, that's author intrusion.

Switch
[stories at http://storiesonline.net/auth/Switch_Blayde ]
[Twitter at https://twitter.com/swblayde ]
[discussion group/blog at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/switch_blayde_group/ ]

---

Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:38:36 -0800

Subject: Re: I don't get the obsession...

From: joe.bon...@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com

[Tom Frost]

Earlier I wrote that I would keep my loved ones away from Razer because he spent an awful lot of time writing about accusation-through-implication and other bigoted, hateful activities. I hope some of you picked up that I was writing somewhat ironically in order to demonstrate how ugly it felt to have that kind of attitude (what you write is who you are) thrown back in your face. But I was also kidding on the square. Being willing to accuse people because of mushy thinking and false logical constructs is a real marker for oppression. Pretty much every anti-{people you don't like} movement ever has come from this sort of spurious reasoning.

The world is full of mushy thinkers and I would hardly assume Razer is also an oppressive bigot based on that alone. So, let's see what's actually being said here:

> I suppose I am a bit paranoid, possibly even overprotective. However, as a survivor of abuse, married to a survivor of abuse, I'm erring on the side of caution, and my wife is all for it.

Let's just start at the beginning here. When you start an argument with "I'm erring," you're acknowledging that you're wrong. We could stop here, but I just wrapped up another chapter of Elevated and I need a mental palate cleanser, so let's dig a little deeper.

What's done here is a neat little ball of logical fallacies in which Razer attempts to convince us that we should listen to him because

(1) he is a survivor of abuse

(2) his wife is a survivor of abuse

(3) his wife agrees with him

This combines the fallacy of weak authority and the fallacy of consensus. There's no indication that a survivor of abuse has any better understanding of the correlation between authorship, readership and arousal to a tendency to act out bad behaviors. With no such indications, the opinion of two survivors of abuse in consensus is equally lacking in authority.

If the purpose of this statement, coupled with the acknowledgement of his own error is to imply that, while his own choices are poorly made, his wife makes equally poor choices and they should not be impeded in applying the results of said choices to the lives of their children, I will grant that one is still free to raise one's child to believe any number of patent absurdities in this country and that I don't believe anyone on this list was trying to impede his ability to do so.

> I'm always a bit confused why people seem to be so fired up about letting people live there own lives, if they're kidnapped, tortured, raped and killed, well that's just fine at least they lived their own life.

This is probably in relation to something Tim Merrigan said, but it's basically a straw man argument and an argument from false causality. No one here is arguing that people should be free to be "kidnapped, tortured, raped and killed," but Razer seems to be making the case that making one's own choices in life will lead to a higher rate such behaviors. A countercase would seem to be that the highest incidents of rape, kidnapping, torture and murder usually happen in nations where free choice is greatly restricted.

> I've stopped my nephew and my niece definitely, and my son, possibly, from being snatched off of the street by being overprotective.

This is an interesting assertion and one that begs any number of questions, but since there's no indication that Razer identified these child-snatchers by first observing them reading a copy of Lolita or some other work of deviant erotic fiction, it's safe to assume that it's not actually germane to our discussion.

> So call me what you want, I'll keep protecting my family however I deem necessary.

Noted.

If you were abused by someone with blonde hair, it's your right to protect your children against people with blond hair.

If you were abused by someone with dark skin, it's your right to protect your children against people with dark skin,

If you were abused by someone who read a lot of porn, likewise.

As human beings, we are excellent pattern matchers, but we are prone to false positives. This is an evolutionary advantage. Our ancestors who woke up because they thought the wind was a tiger stalking into their camp survived while the ones who slept through an actual tiger attack are generally not our ancestors. I would even argue that an occasional false positive even means that you're probably an excellent parent. However, when this fails, it can have disastrous consequences.

The problem with the idea of "overprotectiveness" is not that it is "too protective," but rather that it is falsely protective. Even parents have finite resources and limited choices. If you exclude people from caring for your children based on false pretenses, you actually increase the chance that something bad will happen to them. How many thousands of parents over the past few decades withdrew their children from care by people they imagined to be less desirable.and handed them over to Catholic priests based on the bad assumption that men of the cloth were less likely to be child molesters than the general populace? How many did so because they thought they were being "overprotective," but really they were being falsely protective and it was driving them to make bad choices?

> Interestingly enough there are also studies that show that nearly every single one of the people that do that kind of thing start with stories and pictures, 'safe' and legal fantasies, first, before moving to actually doing it.

> As laymen, most of us won't know which studies are legit or not, given the amount of studies being done at any given time.

I pulled these statements out of a long paragraph about studies and how useless they are for proving anything. The whole argument boils down to this: because there are charlatans, no one is an expert. If anyone really wants to argue that case, I'll be happy to take the countercase.

I did want to highlight these points in order to bring up a couple of others:

In my other life, I work in clinical trials. It's actually part of my job to look at studies, evaluate their relevance, their bias, and their trustworthiness. For something as important as protecting the children in your family, it might be worth the hour or so that it would take to learn how to tell a good study from a bad study. But, I'll give you a head start. The type of study you claim knowledge of is a bad study. Trying to prove that agent A is the cause of condition B by demonstrating that a high percentage of those with condition B were exposed to agent A is fallacious. Here's a less charged example:

Of the 2,107 new American millionaires in 2010, 1,106 of them were lottery winners.

The implication of this study would be that the best way to become a millionaire is to buy lottery tickets. Like your imagined study, it ignores both the direction of causality and the actual hit-rate in the other direction.

Coincidentally, none of this addresses the core premise of this particular thread: that there is some behavioral difference between people who enjoy reading and writing about rape that manifests in a higher statistical probability that the will commit a rape given the opportunity.

Since no one has posted any actual studies, here's my summary of the science that's been done on this so far: men and women who view pornography both demonstrated increased aggression for short periods of time (< 15 minutes) with their aggression levels returning to normal after that. "Aggressive" pornography increases the intensity of that aggression, but not the duration. These numbers appear to be consistent with people who view violent entertainment. There isn't enough data to compare this increased aggression to people who become aroused without viewing pornography, so it's difficult to tell whether the proximate cause is arousal or the source of the arousal.

Outside of that fifteen-minute window, there is no reliable science done that links pornography use or the use of aggressive or violent pornography to sexual violence - none. A lot of work has gone into trying to make the case that such a link exists, but the overwhelming mass of studies show that it's just not there.

Here's an example of a good study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2032762

Int J Law Psychiatry. 1991;14(1-2):47-64.

Pornography and rape: theory and practice? Evidence from crime data in four countries where pornography is easily available.

Kutchinsky B.

Author information

Abstract

We have looked at the empirical evidence of the well-known feminist dictum: "pornography is the theory--rape is the practice" (Morgan, 1980). While earlier research, notably that generated by the U.S. Commission on Obscenity and Pornography (1970) had found no evidence of a causal link between pornography and rape, a new generation of behavioral scientists have, for more than a decade, made considerable effort to prove such a connection, especially as far as "aggressive pornography" is concerned. The first part of the article examines and discusses the findings of this new research. A number of laboratory experiments have been conducted, much akin to the types of experiments developed by researchers of the effects of nonsexual media violence. As in the latter, a certain degree of increased "aggressiveness" has been found under certain circumstances, but to extrapolate from such laboratory effects to the commission of rape in real life is dubious. Studies of rapists' and nonrapists' immediate sexual reactions to presentations of pornography showed generally greater arousal to non-violent scenes, and no difference can be found in this regard between convicted rapists, nonsexual criminals and noncriminal males. In the second part of the paper an attempt was made to study the necessary precondition for a substantial causal relationship between the availability of pornography, including aggressive pornography, and rape--namely, that obviously increased availability of such material was followed by an increase in cases of reported rape. The development of rape and attempted rape during the period 1964-1984 was studied in four countries: the U.S.A., Denmark, Sweden and West Germany. In all four countries there is clear and undisputed evidence that during this period the availability of various forms of pictorial pornography including violent/dominant varieties (in the form of picture magazines, and films/videos used at home or shown in arcades or cinemas) has developed from extreme scarcity to relative abundance. If (violent) pornography causes rape, this exceptional development in the availability of (violent) pornography should definitely somehow influence the rape statistics. Since, however, the rape figures could not simply be expected to remain steady during the period in question (when it is well known that most other crimes increased considerably), the development of rape rates was compared with that of non-sexual violent offences and nonviolent sexual offences (in so far as available statistics permitted). The results showed that in none of the countries did rape increase more than nonsexual violent crimes. This finding in itself would seem sufficient to discard the hypothesis that pornography causes rape.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 400 WORDS)

--Tom

[Razer Shadowjammer]

tl; dr;

I did notice, though, that you ignored the point of where the people that do this kind of thing get the ideas for it. I really don't care what you think of me or what you think of my methods, or what you think of what I think. The fact of the matter is that if someone is going to do that kind of thing, they're going to get off on the writing and or reading of it. Simply because that's what they like. So based on the fact that that's what they like, there is a good chance that given a group of people that like to read/wite/fantasize about that stuff, there is going to be a portion of them that are actually going to do it. If I know that you get off on that kind of stuff, you're not going to be around my family. I can't say that the people that tried to snatch my nephew, or my niece were into that kind of stuff, but since a large portion of the snatched children either end up in human trafficking or dead, it's a safe bet that they were, or were supplying someone who was. So your argument that not all people who read/write/fantasize about this stuff are dangerous criminals is not sufficient inducement for me or many others to take a chance on it, because quite a few of them ARE. And I'd rather be safe than sorry. If I have judged someone wrongly because they dream about raping and killing my son, but wouldn't actually DO it. Tough beans. I don't want someone around my son who would be dreaming about raping and killing him whether they would do it or not. And anyone who trusts a catholic priest, given that they've been doing what they've been doing for CENTURIES, only has themselves to blame. I'm sure there are some 'good' ones out there, but since the 'good' ones protect the 'bad' ones that pretty much makes them all bad. Kinda like, saying that there's no cause for concern about someone that dreams about raping and killing children... when you don't REALLY know that they wouldn't. You only know that they haven't been caught doing it.  You try to slam me because I state that I wouldn't trust someone that I know dreams about raping and killing children. I honestly don't care. If I know that you dream about raping and killing children, amongst a few other highly dangerous things, you're not coming around my family. Because there is no way for me to know if you're one that will or one that only likes to think about it. And if you're one that will, I don't want to find out when you snatch my child.
My son is happy, well adjusted, loving, and most importantly, safe. Because he knows that Daddy is on watch. He doesn't have to worry about any of that crap, because he know that unless they try to snatch him with a professional merc team, anyone that tries it will die in the attempt, because daddy and mommy will shoot first and ask questions later. When my son is old enough to protect himself, he can live his life like he wants to. Of course I hope that he'll have listened and learned about the things to be careful of, but until then that's my job.

If you wouldn't want any of your loved ones around me me because I don't trust someone that is dreaming about raping and killing them, and would defend them  with lethal force if someone tried it, I suppose that's your call. I'm not sure how your family sleeps knowing that you think its perfectly alright for someone to be dreaming about raping and killing them, and that that is not sufficient reason to keep that person away from them. But hey, different strokes for different folks.

"Daddy that man says I'd look sexy in a casket."

"Well don't worry sweetheart. He wouldn't actually do it. It's just fantasy. We can't judge him for that!"

[Tom Frost]

Razer--

I'm not sure what makes your argument harder to follow: your lack of logic or your lack of punctuation, sentence structure, and paragraph breaks.

Since you invited me to call you whatever I wanted in your previous post, I'd just like to say that you're an ignorant bigot, dangerous, hateful, willfully ignorant, and more interested in embracing your own prejudices than protecting your children.

I can't say I'm disappointed. I didn't really expect to convince you of anything with my previous analysis. It was meant for the thinking fence-sitters on the subject.

I am glad that you said parents who trusted their children with Catholic priests in the 70s, 80s, and 90s only to find that trust violated deserved what they got. Up until that point, I pitied you as a parent concerned about his children, but lacking the basic mental facilities to translate that caring into meaningful action. Once you said that, I now feel comfortable just disliking you for what you are.

--Tom

[Razer Shadowjammer]

Again, don't care. The catholic church has been molesting children for CENTURIES... not just a hundred years... but several of them... in a row. It hasn't been a secret. So, I will turn this back around on you. You are a liar, and a bit of a selective reader. You try to nitpick at one thing while ignoring the big things. If you actually are involved in research, I wonder how often they have to go back over what you were supposed to be doing to catch the stuff you missed, or deliberately misinterpreted. I did not say that they deserved what they got, I said they had themselves to blame. The children most definitely did not deserve what happened to them, and the parents ARE to blame for entrusting their children to a system that has been screwing them over for several hundred years running.

I'm not sure where you get the not able to translate caring into meaningful action, but sure whatever floats your boat. What someone on the internet who doesn't actually know me or my situation, thinks about the way I protect my family, really doesn't affect me at all. Because my family is protected. You call me a bigot because I don't trust people who dream about raping and killing children. Being a bigot would mean that I have no reason not to trust them, on the contrary I believe that the fact that they dream about raping and killing children is plenty of reason not to trust them. If you don't feel that way you are perfectly free to trust them. I don't hold it against you. Unlike many other kinks out there, if you're wrong about this particular one, people die. They aren't in therapy for a few years and then sort of get on with their lives, dealing with the scars, well maybe they do if they're lucky, but generally speaking the fact that they would be dead would impede that.
Of course I don't trust them if they just dream about raping or just dream about killing, either. I don't care if they don't actually do it, because that is not something I'm willing to take a chance on.

On a side note I often wonder how many 'accidental' deaths of children aren't accidents at all, and what would be found if the people around when the accident happened were investigated a bit more deeply. That's just an idle thought though.

It is said that name calling is the refuge of the small mind. You are personally attacking me, because I am creeped out and don't trust people that dream about raping and killing children. Why? What does it matter to you who I trust or don't? Why do you feel the need to attack me when you've said yourself, that you don't write that? You seem to be taking this a bit personally for someone who claims not to be into this.

I don't know how long you've been on this forum, but you can ask VD, Zine and any number of people that have been parts of these discussion, name calling over the internet really doesn't impress me or anyone.  Calling me names doesn't make you right. Telling me that you don't like me infers that that makes the slightest difference to me, I'll correct the inference, it doesn't. When this thread fades away so will any thought of you, until or unless you happen to be on the other side of the screen from me again, and then I'll be dealing with whatever opinion is up for discussion at that point, and whether or not you like me will still rank with how concerned I am about how many dung beetles moved dung in Africa this morning.

The only time your existence will ever really matter to me is in the unlikely event that you manage to become a threat to my family, at which point either my wife or I will end that threat, and you will then again fade to non-importance in my mind.

[Switch Blayde]

I stopped reading this thread a while back, but at this point it seems to have gotten personal. Please, keep it civil.

Where's Mother when you need her.

Thank you.

[Tom Frost]

Since you haven't been reading the thread, I presume you're advocating civility as a universal virtue and its abandonment always to be avoided. I reject this notion -- certainly within the context of where people usually draw the line around civility.

In this particular case, Razer invited me to call him names. I consider it very restrained that I limited myself to as few as I did.

--Tom

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[Razer Shadowjammer]

He called me a bigot and compared my views to every oppressive movement ever, yet his choice of arguing an opinion is personal attacks against someone he doesn't know and name calling.

[Tom Frost]

I don't expect you to understand the subtle differences between what I said and what you think I said, but...

Actually, no "but" there. I don't expect you to understand. Full stop.

Razer Shadowjammer wrote:

> call me what you want

I was just getting warmed up.

--Tom

[Razer Shadowjammer]

Ah, but if only you would fully stop. If you're saying that you're calling me names because I asked you to, then that is quite possibly the most infantile argument anyone has tried to pass off on this forum. But if you're going to do what I tell you, then go away.

[Tom Frost]

>  If you're saying that you're calling me names because I asked you to...

I'm not. I'm saying I called you names because you *invited* me to (and because you justified everything I called you.)

If you want to guarantee I stop responding to your hateful nonsense, stop posting it. Spend your time more productively.You can start here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBxE0y7b464

--Tom

[Razer Shadowjammer]

Again, where do you get hate out of anything I've said? I've said it creeps me out. I've said I don't trust them. I've said if any attempt to harm my family I will respond with lethal force. Nowhere in any of that is hate. If you see hate, it's coming from you. Your name calling is hateful. Your personal attacks over an opinion that doesn't affect you at all is hateful. There's plenty of hate in this discussion, you're supplying all of it though. You can respond until the cows come home, I really don't care, I'm on vacation and basically getting paid to argue with you. When I get bored with you I'll go play with my son for a while, or take a nap, then come back at respond if I feel like it. You're a slightly interesting diversion into the effects of delusions of grandeur. Most people have quit reading, I'm already convinced you're hopeless, and right now you're just entertaining in seeing how long your little rage fit will last. You're insults don't effect me, although I'm sure they make you feel super intelligent and tough, typing them out with a flourish, imagining my virtually hurt feelings. Sorry to disappoint. I'm going to take my son to fill the toilet with what I think of your opinions, then I'm going to sleep. If your little ragesterbation is still going on I'll respond in the morning. Later Frosty.

[Tom Frost]

You're right. I agree with your position completely. All you had to do was repeat what you said that fifth time and it all makes sense now.

--Tom

[Zine]

bb,

1. Having left the conclusion up to the reader, I completed no "argument."

2. A premise can in fact be true, or it can be held as true by a significant number of people, e.g., "Secondary smoke causes cancer."  More often than not I think, truth is what the individual/society/culture believes it to be.

3. Unlike Socrates and other Ancients, I am not fool enough to apply deductive/mathematical/scientific logic to social/cultural problems/questions -- wherein these areas, as writers we should all know in our hearts and souls -- there are no absolutes save one: People are comprised of unique individuals and as such what may be true for some, will probably not be true for many.

My personal conclusion is, "A word to the wise should be sufficient."  But what's really telling to me is when a person for whom that individual feels the shoe fits, immediately reacts by going on the defensive, for if the postulate is wrong, absurd or of no consequence, them what reason, defense?

Zine.

[Deadly Ernest]

Zine,

With regards to your comment 2 about a premise - I would amend that to include that it's often amended from the proven facts to what the publicity campaign says it is when related to what people believe. To me a premises is either proven true by proven and irrefutable facts or not; but that's not how things are often done with the public today.

Take your example - the scientific evidence is that smoking doesn't DIRECTLY cause cancer, what has been proven but kept away from the general public is that the carcinogenics in most tobacco does LOWER your immune system's capabilities and thus makes you more susceptible to other negative factors - some of which are also other carcinogenics in the tobacco. That's why some people get cancer and some don't and the cancers aren't all the same - as it depends on how good their system is to begin with and what else they're exposed to.

Another example is the different media presentations of military conflicts, and the events surrounding them, in the last 50 years. The effect of the media has shaped public opinion in different countries in different ways at different times on the very same subject - yet often with a total disregard of the proven facts of the case due to either the way the media present the facts or what they choose to NOT present in their reports.

Ernest

[Razer Shadowjammer]

Of course you do. Don't worry it just takes repetition with some people. :)

[Tim Merrigan]

Proofreaders nit:  The correct word where you're using "carcinogenics" is "carcinogens".  If "carcinogenics" existed as a word it would be a sub-field of "oncology", the study of carcinogens.

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[Deadly Ernest]

Thanks Tim, but it was late at night after a hard day of moving house (still at it) and the spell checker and grammar checker passed it - sorry.

[ElSol]

Well... we should all tread lightly around cmsix and all other apocalyptic story writers. Those bastards are just waiting to wipe out 99.99% of humanity. (Hot women need not worry -- a large percentage of that .001 are beautiful, bisexual women with big tits and legs from their necks to the floor.)

...

Oh crap, I am one of them... And I've killed off billions multiple times!

Is it possible for me to tread lightly around myself?

[Razer Shadowjammer]

I suppose the question would really be... what is being written about? Is the point of the story the killing off of millions of people? Or is the point of the story a hero rising in a time of need and saving some small portion, or even all of humanity? Like war stories the point isn't the war, it's just a vehicle to give the hero a chance to be heroic. Unlike snuff stories where the point is to graphically depict rape, torture, and killing, and get off on it. I'm not really seeing how the two are directly comparable. The vehicle, war, apocalypse, plague, etc, which merely give the hero a reason to be heroic, which is the point (him/her being heroic), is not the same thing as a story where the point is the rape, torture, killing, and getting off on it.

[Zine]

ES,

On Monday, December 30, 2013 1:09:44 AM UTC-5, ElSol wrote:

Well... we should all tread lightly around cmsix and all other apocalyptic story writers. Those bastards are just waiting to wipe out 99.99% of humanity. (Hot women need not worry -- a large percentage of that .001 are beautiful, bisexual women with big tits and legs from their necks to the floor.)

...

Oh crap, I am one of them... And I've killed off billions multiple times!

You have big boobs and no shoulders?  Freaky.
 

Is it possible for me to tread lightly around myself?

Depends on how heavy your boobs are?

Zine.