Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

[bondi beach]

just got my first rejection from a pay publisher for a revised (and improved, i thought) version of "sarah's honeymoon." when i asked, the editor  was kind enough to expand a little on "didn't work for us," and i've posted the response below. not quite what i wanted to hear, of course, but all feedback is good.

"For me, there was too much telling, not enough showing (the entire first scene, for example... all telling.) The chemistry between the two main characters didn't really "click" for me... your characters actually fell a little flat, and the dialogue is kind of stale. Those were the main reasons this submission elicited a rejection."

apparently, aside from the stale dialogue and flat characters, it wasn't a bad story.

bb

[memtongue]

Congratulations for trying; never quit.

Mem

[Zine]

bb,

I'm sorry you were rejected. The really important thing is you got
specific feedback and that's not the normal thing, is it? It's hard
to fix what you don't know is broken. But, there's so much slush, and
so little time (no offense), feedback from an acquisitions editor is
pure gold. My take on it is your story is probably otherwise okay.
So you can blow him off and submit it elsewhere, or try to fix it, or
both. The most important thing is, how do you feel about his
opinion? Is it possible there could there be some truth to what he or
she said? If it's available, I'll be happy to do a ms crit. if you
want and I promise to be as gentle as I know how. :) And, of course,
I'll send it to you privately if you so desire.

Zine

[Homer Vargas]

show us the whole improved version and we'll tell you if the publisher is righ or not. :)
My stories can be read on:
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas; http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html
http://www.mcstories.com
http://www.eroticstories.com; http://storiesonline.net
http://www.literotica.com
http://www.the-impregnorium.com

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, bondi beach <bondi.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

bb,

I'm sorry you were rejected.  The really important thing is you got
specific feedback and that's not the normal thing, is it?  It's hard
to fix what you don't know is broken.  But, there's so much slush, and
so little time (no offense), feedback from an acquisitions editor is
pure gold.  My take on it is your story is probably otherwise okay.
So you can blow him off and submit it elsewhere, or try to fix it, or
both.  The most important thing is, how do you feel about his
opinion?  Is it possible there could there be some truth to what he or
she said?  If it's available, I'll be happy to do a ms crit. if you
want and I promise to be as gentle as I know how. :)  And, of course,
I'll send it to you privately if you so desire.

thanks z and homer.

there's not much doubt that the editor is right. i was reading it this morning and there are parts that are just plain clunky. trouble is, i can see the whole thing in my mind and it is plain as day---and, of course, that is exactly the real issue with any writing: you can see it, but you've got to be able to make the reader see it and feel it, too.

the SOL version of the story is at http://storiesonline.net/story/59280. i welcome any commentary in any form you care to make it, here in  the group or direct, however you wish to do it.

as for a rejection of me, well, of course it is, but let's keep a little perspective here. if it had been a commentary on a user policy or server configuration procedure i'd written (which reek of stale dialogue and flat characters, by the way---lawyer reviewers won't take anything else, unimaginative clods that they are) i'd feel a little differently because, not to put too fine a point on it, i'm a fucking brilliant technical writer.

but i digress.

anyway, thanks for your comments and please tell me anything you care to after you've read the story.

bb

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

bb,

I'm sorry you were rejected.  The really important thing is you got
specific feedback and that's not the normal thing, is it?  It's hard
to fix what you don't know is broken.  But, there's so much slush, and
so little time (no offense), feedback from an acquisitions editor is
pure gold.  

absolutely right. i was about three degrees on the polite side of groveling and the editor was kind enough to elaborate. i appreciate how rare that is. my earlier submission of another story to a different publisher got no response, not even a rejection, so this was a big step forward. so i am delighted to have had that.

bb

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 3:39 PM, memtongue <memt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Congratulations for trying; never quit.

thanks. i won't.

bb

[Homer Vargas]

I had a look at the story and the first words should be"

"Sarah was nude when I first saw her."

Get around to the firm's business plan later if ever.

I also would not let the reader think it is Doug's wife who is narrating until Sara finally introduces herself.

My stories can be read on:
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas; http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html
http://www.mcstories.com
http://www.eroticstories.com; http://storiesonline.net
http://www.literotica.com
http://www.the-impregnorium.com

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, bondi beach <bondi.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: bondi beach <bondi.b...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good
> To: storie...@googlegroups.com

[Bingain]

Good try, BB. Damn, you beat me to a rejection (I don't even have the
courage to ask for one.)

Like Zine and Homer suggested, don't give up. Stick the rejection slip
on the wall like Stephen King did as motivation to get better.

Regarding your opening scene, I like to compare story writing to
screenplays. You have a picture in your mind, that's the Caribbean
beach. You're on the beach, probably sipping chilled beer, kind of
like the Coors lite commercial. It's a beautiful scene, but other than
the scenery, the audience doesn't see much actions. The messages are
delivered through internal dialogue and recollections. That is a weak
opening. I think, had you started with "Sarah was nude when I first
saw her, and she was heading away from me," it would have been a much
more attractive opening ^_^

Are you going to rework on this story or are you going to write a new
one for your next pitching?

Bing

On Oct 4, 3:37 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Homer Vargas <varg...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I had a look at the story and the first words should be"

"Sarah was nude when I first saw her."

Get around to the firm's business plan later if ever.

I also would not let the reader think it is Doug's wife who is narrating until Sara finally introduces herself.

thanks for looking and for taking the time to comment. doug's wife? yikes, hadn't seen it that way at all. which only goes to show that getting the reader to see what's in your head is harder than it looks.

bb
 

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Bingain <bin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good try, BB. Damn, you beat me to a rejection (I don't even have the
courage to ask for one.)

i have a feeling that this is a race where everyone wins.
 

Like Zine and Homer suggested, don't give up. Stick the rejection slip
on the wall like Stephen King did as motivation to get better.

Regarding your opening scene, I like to compare story writing to
screenplays. You have a picture in your mind, that's the Caribbean
beach. You're on the beach, probably sipping chilled beer, kind of
like the Coors lite commercial. It's a beautiful scene, but other than
the scenery, the audience doesn't see much actions. The messages are
delivered through internal dialogue and recollections. That is a weak
opening. I think, had you started with "Sarah was nude when I first
saw her, and she was heading away from me," it would have been a much
more attractive opening ^_^

Are you going to rework on this story or are you going to write a new
one for your next pitching?

i'm certainly going to revise the story to see if i can strengthen the weak parts, if only for my own satisfaction. don't know now whether i'll submit it anywhere else. may put it on scrib or lulu, haven't decide.

thanks very much for taking a look and commenting.

you know, i really liked that "sarah was nude" line, but i'm not so sure about it any more, whether it opens the story or not. maybe something like "i watched sarah's rear end as she moved away..." or something like that. quite cheesy, perhaps, but maybe a little more showing rather than telling.

i briefly interned with a commercial photographer many years ago. he did mostly advertising work with a little free-lance photojournalism thrown in. his advice: "go for the cliche', always." i guess it's how well you execute the cliche' that counts.

bb

bb

[Switch Blayde]

bb,
 
Specific feedback is great to get with a rejection. I would guess most rejected manuscripts simply get a "sorry, not for us" response.
 
The best feedback I received from a mainstream publisher was "show don't tell." Take note of that feedback -- 1) it's what makes a novel alive, and 2) it seems to be what the editors are looking for.
 
I also got feedback concerning POV. I was told I was "headbobbing" (jumping from point of view to point of view). I wrote the novel right after reading "The Da Vinci Code" and that's what Dan Brown did. He wrote very small chapters and kept changing POV. In fact, I just began his new novel and he did the same thing. So the editors aren't always correct.
 
The feedback that was devastating was when the editor said she hated my hero. She said he was well developed, but she hated him because he was manipulative and a bunch of other things. He was supposed to be that. Part of me was glad I had that affect on her. You were supposed to hate him in the beginning. He was after revenge and used the heroine to get at her husband (how did he know he was going to fall in love with her?). The reason it was devastating was because I was targeting the Erotic Romance genre and learned that none of my heroes would fall into that genre (my characters aren't the alpha male single-dimension type). I knew the editor thought the novel was well written because she gave me her private email to resubmit after revising the novel, but I never did.
 
So, congrats on completing a novel (if you revise it to do more showing, don't be surprised when it gets much longer, maybe five times more words). And congrats on having the nerve to submit it. Take pride in the fact they bothered to give you specific feedback -- it's priceless. Now it's up to you to research as much as you can on what they said. For example, after I was told to "show don't tell," I googled it for weeks and read everything I could find on the subject. Do that as well and practice "showing" when you write. Try googling things like "flat characters in fiction" and "stale dialog" to see if there's something worth reading on those subjects. If you don't find anything, change your search criteria and keep looking. And do what I do -- ask questions to this group and listen to the discussion. Take away what helps and ignore what doesn't.
 
And ... keep trying. I gave up because I can't find a mainstream erotic publisher that isn't Romance and I don't write that. If I ever find a mainstream Erotic Murder Mystery publisher, I'll try again. You should keep trying.
 
Switch
 

---

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 15:37:03 -0400
Subject: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good
From: bondi.b...@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com

---

Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now.

[Tim Merrigan]

Anything more than a form letter rejection slip is a slight step up, it
means it made it past the slush pile. An actual editor actually read
it. I'd say try to fix the problems the editor mentioned and resubmit it.

--

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation, from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

Tim Merrigan

[Tim Merrigan]

Homer Vargas wrote:
> show us the whole improved version and we'll tell you if the publisher is righ or not. :)
>

In case you missed Homer's smiley, don't, that might count as prior
publication.

[Tim Merrigan]

Try accentuation the murder mystery aspect. Most erotic publishers went
out of business with the advent of, first Usenet, and then the Internet.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 15:37:03 -0400
> Subject: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good
> From: bondi.b...@gmail.com
> To: storie...@googlegroups.com
>
> just got my first rejection from a pay publisher for a revised (and
> improved, i thought) version of "sarah's honeymoon." when i asked, the
> editor was kind enough to expand a little on "didn't work for us,"
> and i've posted the response below. not quite what i wanted to hear,
> of course, but all feedback is good.
>
> "For me, there was too much telling, not enough showing (the entire
> first scene, for example... all telling.) The chemistry between the
> two main characters didn't really "click" for me... your characters
> actually fell a little flat, and the dialogue is kind of stale. Those
> were the main reasons this submission elicited a rejection."
>
> apparently, aside from the stale dialogue and flat characters, it
> wasn't a bad story.
>
> bb
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up

> now. <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/>

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Switch Blayde <switch...@hotmail.com> wrote:

 

Specific feedback is great to get with a rejection. I would guess most rejected manuscripts simply get a "sorry, not for us" response.

thanks, SB and tim.

this was a solicited submission, in the sense that this e-publisher solicits them, and i got the extra commentary because i asked politely (just shy of groveling) for it. it was still a great kindness on the part of the editor to respond.

not a novel, a short story, just over 7K.

 
I also got feedback concerning POV. I was told I was "headbobbing" (jumping from point of view to point of view). I wrote the novel right after reading "The Da Vinci Code" and that's what Dan Brown did. He wrote very small chapters and kept changing POV. In fact, I just began his new novel and he did the same thing. So the editors aren't always correct.

wonder if he did it in his first novel?

 
The feedback that was devastating was when the editor said she hated my hero. She said he was well developed, but she hated him because he was manipulative and a bunch of other things. He was supposed to be that. Part of me was glad I had that affect on her. You were supposed to hate him in the beginning. He was after revenge and used the heroine to get at her husband (how did he know he was going to fall in love with her?). The reason it was devastating was because I was targeting the Erotic Romance genre and learned that none of my heroes would fall into that genre (my characters aren't the alpha male single-dimension type). I knew the editor thought the novel was well written because she gave me her private email to resubmit after revising the novel, but I never did.

i think you're right---the reader has to care enough about the character to hate him or her.

as for the one-dimensional alpha hero, that's exactly what folks like spice and harlequin want. i don't have any problem in principle with trying to meet those requirements---it's a writing exercise---but it's hard to do (duh). i've been doing some professional reading (as it were) and finding most of the stories kind of lifeless, albeit very well-written technically. but there must be something in those cardboard characters that attracted an editor.

And ... keep trying. I gave up because I can't find a mainstream erotic publisher that isn't Romance and I don't write that. If I ever find a mainstream Erotic Murder Mystery publisher, I'll try again. You should keep trying.

are you sure there aren't any?

bb

[NoGoodNick]

> The best feedback I received from a mainstream publisher was "show don't tell." Take note of that feedback -- 1) it's what
> makes a novel alive, and 2) it seems to be what the editors are looking for.
>
> I also got feedback concerning POV. I was told I was "headbobbing" (jumping from point of view to point of view). I wrote the
> novel right after reading "The Da Vinci Code" and that's what Dan Brown did. He wrote very small chapters and kept changing
> POV. In fact, I just began his new novel and he did the same thing. So the editors aren't always correct.

That is one thing that's readily apparent about a lot of stuff on SOL.
Like the fact that most stories are written from the first person POV.
That's something that amateaurs almost always do but that professional
writers almost never do. Writing from the 3rd person POV makes it easy
to switch back and forth between characters. The writer of
"Robin" (previously commented on in another thread) discovered that
part way into his 100+ chapter book, but by then (in the chapter
teens) he decided it was too late to change, and was stuck with
changed character POV ever after.

Rules, as always, are made to be broken, but only if your either VERY
talented or VERY lucky and probably both. If you can make it work,
then stick it out. But I'd try both approaches and see just which one
works the best for you. But be careful trying to "borrow" writing
techniques or styles from another writer, because often it will sound
like you are writing in two different styles.

--- For as much as advice from a non-Author is worth! ---

[NoGoodNick]

>> mainstream erotic publisher that isn't Romance and I don't write that. If I
>> ever find a mainstream Erotic Murder Mystery publisher, I'll try again. You
>> should keep trying.
>
> are you sure there aren't any?

If there were, do you think ANY of us would be at SOL - either writers
OR readers? While there is more explicitness than ever in published
works, there's still very little variety in it. They've started
printing lesbian romances and gay, well, porn mostly, and the
character relationships are always MF romances for the most part (when
was the last time you saw a harem in general fiction?) Romances have
their own rules, SciFi has it's own little world, mysteries have,
well, maybe a looser definition but, in the end, you've got to have an
attractive character who gets the girl and solves the case. And, when
was the last time you asked during a movie or a book, why does
everyone always fall in love under duress? The rules, as in D/S & S/M,
are pretty strict in most venues and, as publishing becomes more and
more limited, it's likely to get more so.

[Zine]

SB,

Try the Del-Ray group.

Zine

On Oct 4, 5:51 pm, Switch Blayde <switch_bla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> bb,
>
> Specific feedback is great to get with a rejection. I would guess most rejected manuscripts simply get a "sorry, not for us" response.
>
> The best feedback I received from a mainstream publisher was "show don't tell." Take note of that feedback -- 1) it's what makes a novel alive, and 2) it seems to be what the editors are looking for.
>
> I also got feedback concerning POV. I was told I was "headbobbing" (jumping from point of view to point of view). I wrote the novel right after reading "The Da Vinci Code" and that's what Dan Brown did. He wrote very small chapters and kept changing POV. In fact, I just began his new novel and he did the same thing. So the editors aren't always correct.
>
> The feedback that was devastating was when the editor said she hated my hero. She said he was well developed, but she hated him because he was manipulative and a bunch of other things. He was supposed to be that. Part of me was glad I had that affect on her. You were supposed to hate him in the beginning. He was after revenge and used the heroine to get at her husband (how did he know he was going to fall in love with her?). The reason it was devastating was because I was targeting the Erotic Romance genre and learned that none of my heroes would fall into that genre (my characters aren't the alpha male single-dimension type). I knew the editor thought the novel was well written because she gave me her private email to resubmit after revising the novel, but I never did.
>
> So, congrats on completing a novel (if you revise it to do more showing, don't be surprised when it gets much longer, maybe five times more words). And congrats on having the nerve to submit it. Take pride in the fact they bothered to give you specific feedback -- it's priceless. Now it's up to you to research as much as you can on what they said. For example, after I was told to "show don't tell," I googled it for weeks and read everything I could find on the subject. Do that as well and practice "showing" when you write. Try googling things like "flat characters in fiction" and "stale dialog" to see if there's something worth reading on those subjects. If you don't find anything, change your search criteria and keep looking. And do what I do -- ask questions to this group and listen to the discussion. Take away what helps and ignore what doesn't.
>
> And ... keep trying. I gave up because I can't find a mainstream erotic publisher that isn't Romance and I don't write that. If I ever find a mainstream Erotic Murder Mystery publisher, I'll try again. You should keep trying.
>
> Switch
>

> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 15:37:03 -0400
> Subject: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

> From: bondi.beach....@gmail.com

> To: storie...@googlegroups.com
>
> just got my first rejection from a pay publisher for a revised (and improved, i thought) version of "sarah's honeymoon." when i asked, the editor  was kind enough to expand a little on "didn't work for us," and i've posted the response below. not quite what i wanted to hear, of course, but all feedback is good.
>
> "For me, there was too much telling, not enough showing (the entire first scene, for example... all telling.) The chemistry between the two main characters didn't really "click" for me... your characters actually fell a little flat, and the dialogue is kind of stale. Those were the main reasons this submission elicited a rejection."
>
> apparently, aside from the stale dialogue and flat characters, it wasn't a bad story.
>
> bb
>

> _________________________________________________________________
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/

[Zine]

bb,

I agree with the editor's first comment, and generally agree with the
last two, although probably for different reasons. Sorry.

I'll have something much more substantive and definitive to you within
3 days. No, better make it by cob Friday just in case, EST.

Zine

On Oct 4, 4:21 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Zine <mlle.euphros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > bb,
>
> > I'm sorry you were rejected.  The really important thing is you got
> > specific feedback and that's not the normal thing, is it?  It's hard
> > to fix what you don't know is broken.  But, there's so much slush, and
> > so little time (no offense), feedback from an acquisitions editor is
> > pure gold.  My take on it is your story is probably otherwise okay.
> > So you can blow him off and submit it elsewhere, or try to fix it, or
> > both.  The most important thing is, how do you feel about his
> > opinion?  Is it possible there could there be some truth to what he or
> > she said?  If it's available, I'll be happy to do a ms crit. if you
> > want and I promise to be as gentle as I know how. :)  And, of course,
> > I'll send it to you privately if you so desire.
>
> thanks z and homer.
>
> there's not much doubt that the editor is right. i was reading it this
> morning and there are parts that are just plain clunky. trouble is, i can
> see the whole thing in my mind and it is plain as day---and, of course, that
> is exactly the real issue with any writing: you can see it, but you've got
> to be able to make the reader see it and feel it, too.
>

> the SOL version of the story is athttp://storiesonline.net/story/59280. i

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 8:01 PM, NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net> wrote:

>> mainstream erotic publisher that isn't Romance and I don't write that. If I
>> ever find a mainstream Erotic Murder Mystery publisher, I'll try again. You
>> should keep trying.
>
> are you sure there aren't any?

If there were, do you think ANY of us would be at SOL - either writers
OR readers? While there is more explicitness than ever in published
works, there's still very little  variety in it. They've started
printing lesbian romances and gay, well, porn mostly, and the
character relationships are always MF romances for the most part (when
was the last time you saw a harem in general fiction?) Romances have

well, i don't read SOL for erotic murders, so i don't know about that.

not sure whether it's an escape from "romance" or not, but harlequin spice is looking for werewolves and vampires. maybe they still have to be romance vampires (think "twilight" and "true blood"?) or werewolf romances, but it might be worth looking into.

more limited, it's likely to get more so.

absolutely. one of the great things about internet+marketing: slice and dice thinner and thinner.

bb

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 7:49 PM, NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net> wrote:

That is one thing that's readily apparent about a lot of stuff on SOL.
Like the fact that most stories are written from the first person POV.
That's something that amateaurs almost always do but that professional
writers almost never do. Writing from the 3rd person POV makes it easy

well, perhaps, but right off the top of my head i can think of several first-person POV series that were pretty successful: the "matt helm" novels by donald hamilton, the "travis mcgee" series by john d. macdonald, and the "lily bard" and "harper connelly" series by charlaine harris. plus v. i. warshovsky, the whats-his-name series by phillip atlee in the 60s, and at least one or maybe two british spy thrillers (len deighton's "ipcress file," i think).

oh, and raymond chandler, too. can you top these for opening lines from "the big sleep":

"i was neat, clean, shaved and sober, and i didn't care who knew it. i was everything the well-dressed private detective ought to be. i was calling on four million dollars." [OK, that was a lot of money in the 1930s.]

not sure the "amateurs-only first-person POV" argument is really going to hold.

bb

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 8:54 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

bb,

I agree with the editor's first comment, and generally agree with the
last two, although probably for different reasons.  Sorry.

I'll have something much more substantive and definitive to you within
3 days.  No, better make it by cob Friday just in case, EST.

thanks.

bb

[Homer Vargas]

Headbobbing ... She probabl did not mean it tht way.

Seriously, it probably works better in a novel than a short story. You would not want to write anything like the DaVinci code, anyway, except in gross revenue.

My stories can be read on:
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas; http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html
http://www.mcstories.com
http://www.eroticstories.com; http://storiesonline.net
http://www.literotica.com
http://www.the-impregnorium.com

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, Switch Blayde <switch...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 15:37:03 -0400
> Subject: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good
> From: bondi.b...@gmail.com
> To: storie...@googlegroups.com
>
> just got my first rejection from a pay publisher for a
> revised (and improved, i thought) version of
> "sarah's honeymoon." when i asked, the
> editor  was kind enough to expand a little on
> "didn't work for us," and i've posted the
> response below. not quite what i wanted to hear, of course,
> but all feedback is good.
>
> "For me, there was too much telling, not enough
> showing (the entire first scene, for example... all
> telling.) The chemistry between the two main characters
> didn't really "click" for me... your
> characters actually fell a little flat, and the dialogue is
> kind of stale. Those were the main reasons this submission
> elicited a rejection."
>
> apparently, aside from the stale dialogue and flat
> characters, it wasn't a bad story.
>
> bb
>

[Homer Vargas]

I wonder if the length is a problem for a publisher. I like stories this size, but it is too small to be a novel and longer than a typical printed short story.

My stories can be read on:
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas; http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html
http://www.mcstories.com
http://www.eroticstories.com; http://storiesonline.net
http://www.literotica.com
http://www.the-impregnorium.com

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, bondi beach <bondi.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Homer Vargas]

I'd say that's exactly backwards. I think amateurs are MORE likely to use 3rd person. They should; it's easier. But in this story, which really revolves around the change in Matt, the 1st person is right.

My stories can be read on:
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas; http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html
http://www.mcstories.com
http://www.eroticstories.com; http://storiesonline.net
http://www.literotica.com
http://www.the-impregnorium.com

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net> wrote:

> From: NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net>
> Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

[Homer Vargas]

Yeah,

Good FemDom MC Rom preg is pretty had to find at Borders.

My stories can be read on:
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas; http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html
http://www.mcstories.com
http://www.eroticstories.com; http://storiesonline.net
http://www.literotica.com
http://www.the-impregnorium.com

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net> wrote:

> From: NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net>
> Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good
> To: "storiesonline" <storie...@googlegroups.com>

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Homer Vargas <varg...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I wonder if the length is a problem for a publisher.  I like stories this size, but it is too small to be a novel and longer than a typical printed short story.

in this case, the publisher solicits in various lengths, and this was one of them, so i don't think size alone was a significant factor. rather, it was what happened or didn't happen within that length.

bb

[Franco]

My impression is that third person POV is always acceptable. First
usually works best in short stories if the author chooses to use it.

Some novels written today are in first person. One I can think of is
Up the Line by Robert Silverberg. It's a time travel story and it
would be difficult in third person because there are multiple copies
of the protagonist. Digital Knight, an urban fantasy I got from the
Baen free library, is in first person.

I believe first person was more commonly used in the past. I think
half of Didkens' novels were in first and half in third. H. Rider
Haggard I think, wrote all his stories in first person.

[Homer Vargas]

You might try to shorten it by about half. A lot of the "telling" would drop out in the process.

It seems "romantic" enough for me.

My stories can be read on:
http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas; http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html
http://www.mcstories.com
http://www.eroticstories.com; http://storiesonline.net
http://www.literotica.com
http://www.the-impregnorium.com

--- On Sun, 10/4/09, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good
> To: "storiesonline" <storie...@googlegroups.com>

[Franco]

I think first person is more traditional in the mystery/detective/
crime genre than others. I think all the Philip Marlowe stores are in
first. I believe The Maltese Falcon is in third, but can'r recall for
sure.

On Oct 4, 6:31 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Franco]

There are the urban fantasy Anita Blake novels Laurel K. Hamilton
writes. They are very erotic, Anita Blake has a male harem, and
apparently Hamilton is making a living from her books. Also, the
Kushiel trilogy by Jacqueline Carey, another fantasy (not urban) about
a woman who is a masochist.

In the past, there were a lot of men's adventure books that included
sexual content. They were books like the Longarm series, Renegade
(Captain Gringo), etc. But I don't believe these kind of books are
being published any longer.

If you don't want to write erotica for romance publishers, probably
your best bets are fantasy and perhaps SF.

[Vanquished]

From: "Franco" <ffr...@mailandnews.com>

> My impression is that third person POV is always acceptable. First
> usually works best in short stories if the author chooses to use it.

And then there's Halting State, by Charles Stross, the only successful 2nd
person novel I've ever read.

--Vanquished - http://storiesonline.net/auth/Vanquished

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Franco <ffr...@mailandnews.com> wrote:

I think first person is more traditional in the mystery/detective/
crime genre than others. I think all the Philip Marlowe stores are in

right. true for philip marlowe, and others, but not exclusively. "huckleberry finn" is first-person, for example. as for "maltese falcon" and the others by dashiel hammett, i think they're all third-person.

"postman always rings twice" and "serenade," by james m. cain, are first-person.
 
bb

[Tim Merrigan]

The Continental Op stories by Dashiel Hammett are all first person. The
reason we don't know his name is they're all from his viewpoint and he
never refers to himself by name.

[Rewdius]

bb,

Congratulations on your attempt.

It takes balls to put out like a whore, not get a big tip on the
nightstand, and watch calmly as the woman leaves the room while
adjusting her pantyhose. That you were brave enough to try says a
*Hell* of a lot about you. I hope I'm able to maintain your spirit
and courage if I ever grow coolies big enough to make my first
attempt.

I tip my virtual hat to you and lift my virtual glass of sparkling DU
wine high in the air as a means of admiration and respect. You go,
bb, and don't let the bitches rough you up.

Eliston.

-----------

On Oct 4, 2:37 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:
> just got my first rejection from a pay publisher for a revised (and
> improved, i thought) version of "sarah's honeymoon." when i asked, the
> editor was kind enough to expand a little on "didn't work for us," and i've
> posted the response below. not quite what i wanted to hear, of course, but
> all feedback is good.
>
> "For me, there was too much telling, not enough showing (the entire first
> scene, for example... all telling.) The chemistry between the two main
> characters didn't really "click" for me... your characters actually fell a
> little flat, and the dialogue is kind of stale. Those were the main reasons
> this submission elicited a rejection."
>

> apparently, aside from the stale dialogue and flat characters, it wasn't a
> bad story.
>
> bb

[Rewdius]

On Oct 4, 9:04 pm, Homer Vargas <vargas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yeah,
>
> Good FemDom MC Rom preg is pretty had to find at Borders.

And I thought *I* was too focused on my genre . . .

Keep up the spirit, Homer, and never let anyone tell you what to
enjoy.

Eliston.

[Deadly Ernest]

A lot depends on how much gratuitous sex is in the story - my first
paid sale (Ed's New Life) was an erotic action story through a
publisher who didn't do erotica before that (www.dpdotcom.com). The
sex scenes were critical to certain parts of the plot development, and
made up about ten percent of the whole story.

[Punky Girl]

Sorry, BB! Grats on submitting, but this passage right at the beginning showed me mountains of reasons why your story was rejected:

>Doug and I were on our annual beach trip. He was off fishing. Me, I like to eat them, but couldn't care less about catching them. I was there to swim.

>It was an island in the Caribbean. You've seen pictures of it, I'm sure: it's the one with white beaches that go on forever.

Never "talk" to the reader. I've done it, too, so I know how tempting it is to do so but readers never read to be talked to, they read to get lost in a story. 

Right or wrong, it's just how it is. 

Never, ever "talk" to the reader when you write a serious story meant for publication. For online/amateur porn? Great! For anything meaningful/serious? Try getting into the character's head. Express the world through her frame of mind. Never assume the reader is too dumb to understand and never, ever, force anything done her throat! :P

Shrugs... do as I say, not what I do!

-shannon-

[Tim Merrigan]

Punky Girl wrote:
> Sorry, BB! Grats on submitting, but this passage right at the
> beginning showed me mountains of reasons why your story was rejected:
>
> >Doug and I were on our annual beach trip. He was off fishing. Me, I
> like to eat them, but couldn't care less about catching them. I was
> there to swim.
>

> >It was an island in the Caribbean. *You've seen pictures of it*, I'm

> sure: it's the one with white beaches that go on forever.
>
> Never "talk" to the reader. I've done it, too, so I know how tempting
> it is to do so but readers never read to be talked to, they read to
> get lost in a story.
>
> Right or wrong, it's just how it is.
>
> Never, ever "talk" to the reader when you write a serious story meant
> for publication. For online/amateur porn? Great! For anything
> meaningful/serious? Try getting into the character's head. Express the
> world through her frame of mind. Never assume the reader is too dumb
> to understand and never, ever, force anything done her throat! :P
>
> Shrugs... do as I say, not what I do!

Unless forcing things down her throat is what the story's about. (But
then that isn't what you meant.)

> -shannon-

[bondi beach]

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Tim Merrigan <tp...@ca.rr.com> wrote:

The Continental Op stories by Dashiel Hammett are all first person.  The reason we don't know his name is they're all from his viewpoint and he never refers to himself by name.

right. absolutely. forgot about that.

bb

[bondi beach]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:24 AM, Rewdius <rew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Congratulations on your attempt.

thanks. and remember your promise never to put that video---you know which one---on you tube.

bb

[bondi beach]

thanks, PG.

have to think about that. i was really sort of making a joke with that line and trying to avoid having to describe the place (because the only essential elements of the place were water, beach, warm weather, hot coffee and croissants, and everyone knows what those things look like), but evidently it didn't work. thanks also for taking the time to look at it.

bb

[just-this-guy]

Did you look next to the transgendered cuckold bestiality first-time
stories?

[MotherLovesYou]

Remember: YOU know the story, your reader does not. It is vital that
you tell your story so the reader learns what you know. I taught a
course in writing for years: Writing The Character-Driven Novel. It
is the people/characters in your story that the reader wants to know
about. Your characters must live on the page, the reader wants to
know them, to root for them or against them. Make them alive, real
for the reader. Too many writers forget that the reader doesn't want
to have to guess what is going on (unless it is a mystery, etc.), YOU
have to show them the way. Your reader comes to know your story and
your characters through dialoge (action). Speak in action verbs.
Becareful of "was:" this is a passive verb and can slow down the
action.

That you got feed back from the editor is amazing and wonderful. Use
it to learn. Good luck, and keep writing.

On Oct 4, 2:19 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 4:59 PM, Homer Vargas <vargas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I had a look at the story and the first words should be"
>
> > "Sarah was nude when I first saw her."
>
> > Get around to the firm's business plan later if ever.
>
> > I also would not let the reader think it is Doug's wife who is narrating
> > until Sara finally introduces herself.
>
> thanks for looking and for taking the time to comment. doug's wife? yikes,
> hadn't seen it that way at all. which only goes to show that getting the
> reader to see what's in your head is harder than it looks.
>
> bb

>
>
>
>
>
> > My stories can be read on:
> >http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas;

> >http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html<http://www.asstr.org/%7EVargas/stories.html>

> >http://www.mcstories.com
> >http://www.eroticstories.com;http://storiesonline.net
> >http://www.literotica.com
> >http://www.the-impregnorium.com
>

> > --- On Sun, 10/4/09, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > procedure i'd written (which reek of stale dialogue and
> > > flat characters, by the way---lawyer reviewers won't

> > > take anything else, unimaginative clods that they are)
> > > i'd feel a little differently because, not to put too
> > > fine a point on it, i'm a fucking brilliant technical
> > > writer.
>
> > > but i digress.
>
> > > anyway, thanks for your comments and please tell me
> > > anything you care to after you've read the story.
>

> > > bb- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[bondi beach]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 10:14 AM, MotherLovesYou <bcouil...@gmail.com> wrote:

That you got feed back from the editor is amazing and wonderful.  Use
it to learn.  Good luck, and keep writing.

thanks, and thank you for taking the time to comment, too.

bb

[TheDarkKnight]

On Oct 4, 10:02 pm, Homer Vargas <vargas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'd say that's exactly backwards.  I think amateurs are MORE likely to use 3rd person.  They should; it's easier.  
>

I've seen that point made in other forums and threads here, and it
mystifies me somewhat. I find it much easier, and natural, to write
in first person - but then nobody ever said I was a good writer, so
what do I know.

Carry on.

[Zine]

I'm not sure who is more likely to do what, but I think the story
itself should drive the pov selection in all cases; not what is
currently accepted convention (such as 3rd person limited), nor the
writer's skills or ability to tell the story in the POV for which the
story cries out.

If or when you hear a story's demand for a POV with which you have no
experience, say, 2nd person, of whatever flavor, then you should do
your homework and read a careful selection of stories told in 2p so
you may learn the subtleties of that narrative in context. But be
careful regarding selection because many of those stories are actually
only representative of novels that connected with a great many readers
*in spite of* the pov used, but there is also value in learning how
not to do something. Doing the same regarding first person is vital
if you should learn the various ways five "I"s per paragraph, fifteen
per page, may be avoided. Perhaps I should mention here that there
are significant differences between sub-classifications of every
general class of POV, 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

What I've given you here is just the meat of one day's college level
class, sparing you the one paragraph monotone delivery of the day's
syllabus, the handing out of a reading list that was deviously changed
at the last minute to punish over-achievers, and the sadistic
chuckling of the professor as she perfunctorily walks out the door.

Now, if this is too much work for you, or you are afraid it will lead
to an unpleasant change in your amateur status, then by all means
continue to debate the intricacies of an important aspect of writing
with peers who by virtue of their status are likely to understand
little more or less about the subject matter than you do, of course
paying particular attention to those most vocal about a POV they have
never even attempted.

On the other hand, there is always the option to discuss the mysteries
of hyphens and other grammatical symbols, which are always quite
lively and informative; but, in either case evoke one line summations
from passerby such as, "blind leading the blind," or "much ado about
nothing."

Hmm... my inner troll's leash seems to be too long. I'll have to work
on that.

Zine

[Zine]

I hasten to add that my previous post was addressed to no one in
particular, I just used TDK's post to jump in with a reply.

Zine

[bondi beach]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Now, if this is too much work for you, or you are afraid it will lead
to an unpleasant change in your amateur status, then by all means
continue to debate the intricacies of an important aspect of writing
with peers who by virtue of their status are likely to understand
little more or less about the subject matter than you do, of course
paying particular attention to those most vocal about a POV they have
never even attempted.

 

perfectly true, perhaps, but that's a pretty narrow view of what's going on in this group, from what i've seen over the year. it's only part of it, for sure.

on the other hand, there's a snappy line in the first "matt helm" novel where the narrator, making his living as a freelance writer and photographer, is accosted at a cocktail party by a wannabe author toting her manuscript, who asks helm to read it. helm's unspoken response is why, with the all people (editors, agents, publishers) who are in a position to give her a useful response and to do something about her writing, so many amateur writers want to waste the time of any author they know who can't publish it.

anyway, while that's certainly true, there's plenty of other good and useful stuff in the discussions here. also, i have it on pretty good authority that there are published authors among members of this group. (or at least they say they are.)

Hmm... my inner troll's leash seems to be too long.  I'll have to work
on that.

well, inner troll or not, say "hi" to the twins for me and rewdius, please.

bb

[Switch Blayde]

> Try the Del-Ray group.
 
Zine,
 
What is that? I googled it and didn't find a publisher.
 
Switch
 
> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 17:46:59 -0700

> Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

> From: mlle.eu...@gmail.com
> To: storie...@googlegroups.com
>
>
> SB,
>
> Try the Del-Ray group.
>
> Zine
>
> On Oct 4, 5:51 pm, Switch Blayde <switch_bla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > bb,
> >
> > Specific feedback is great to get with a rejection. I would guess most rejected manuscripts simply get a "sorry, not for us" response.

> >
> > The best feedback I received from a mainstream publisher was "show don't tell." Take note of that feedback -- 1) it's what makes a novel alive, and 2) it seems to be what the editors are looking for.
> >
> > I also got feedback concerning POV. I was told I was "headbobbing" (jumping from point of view to point of view). I wrote the novel right after reading "The Da Vinci Code" and that's what Dan Brown did. He wrote very small chapters and kept changing POV. In fact, I just began his new novel and he did the same thing. So the editors aren't always correct.
> >

> > The feedback that was devastating was when the editor said she hated my hero. She said he was well developed, but she hated him because he was manipulative and a bunch of other things. He was supposed to be that. Part of me was glad I had that affect on her. You were supposed to hate him in the beginning. He was after revenge and used the heroine to get at her husband (how did he know he was going to fall in love with her?). The reason it was devastating was because I was targeting the Erotic Romance genre and learned that none of my heroes would fall into that genre (my characters aren't the alpha male single-dimension type). I knew the editor thought the novel was well written because she gave me her private email to resubmit after revising the novel, but I never did.
> >
> > So, congrats on completing a novel (if you revise it to do more showing, don't be surprised when it gets much longer, maybe five times more words). And congrats on having the nerve to submit it. Take pride in the fact they bothered to give you specific feedback -- it's priceless. Now it's up to you to research as much as you can on what they said. For example, after I was told to "show don't tell," I googled it for weeks and read everything I could find on the subject. Do that as well and practice "showing" when you write. Try googling things like "flat characters in fiction" and "stale dialog" to see if there's something worth reading on those subjects. If you don't find anything, change your search criteria and keep looking. And do what I do -- ask questions to this group and listen to the discussion. Take away what helps and ignore what doesn't.
> >
> > And ... keep trying. I gave up because I can't find a mainstream erotic publisher that isn't Romance and I don't write that. If I ever find a mainstream Erotic Murder Mystery publisher, I'll try again. You should keep trying.
> >
> > Switch
> >
> > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 15:37:03 -0400
> > Subject: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good
> > From: bondi.beach....@gmail.com
> > To: storie...@googlegroups.com

> >
> > just got my first rejection from a pay publisher for a revised (and improved, i thought) version of "sarah's honeymoon." when i asked, the editor  was kind enough to expand a little on "didn't work for us," and i've posted the response below. not quite what i wanted to hear, of course, but all feedback is good.
> >
> > "For me, there was too much telling, not enough showing (the entire first scene, for example... all telling.) The chemistry between the two main characters didn't really "click" for me... your characters actually fell a little flat, and the dialogue is kind of stale. Those were the main reasons this submission elicited a rejection."
> >
> > apparently, aside from the stale dialogue and flat characters, it wasn't a bad story.
> >
> > bb
> >

> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222985/direct/01/

---

Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.

[Switch Blayde]

Professional writers write in first person. One of the most famous opening lines in a novel ("Moby Dick") is "Call me Ishmael."
 
By the way, my novel is written in third person omni. Every publisher I looked at required that.
 
Switch
 

---

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 21:31:20 -0400

Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

From: bondi.b...@gmail.com
To: storie...@googlegroups.com

On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 7:49 PM, NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net> wrote:

That is one thing that's readily apparent about a lot of stuff on SOL.
Like the fact that most stories are written from the first person POV.
That's something that amateaurs almost always do but that professional
writers almost never do. Writing from the 3rd person POV makes it easy

well, perhaps, but right off the top of my head i can think of several first-person POV series that were pretty successful: the "matt helm" novels by donald hamilton, the "travis mcgee" series by john d. macdonald, and the "lily bard" and "harper connelly" series by charlaine harris. plus v. i. warshovsky, the whats-his-name series by phillip atlee in the 60s, and at least one or maybe two british spy thrillers (len deighton's "ipcress file," i think).

oh, and raymond chandler, too. can you top these for opening lines from "the big sleep":

"i was neat, clean, shaved and sober, and i didn't care who knew it. i was everything the well-dressed private detective ought to be. i was calling on four million dollars." [OK, that was a lot of money in the 1930s.]

not sure the "amateurs-only first-person POV" argument is really going to hold.

bb

[Switch Blayde]

> I think amateurs are MORE likely to use 3rd person. They should; it's easier.
 

I think amateurs (at least first time writers) write in 1st person. I don't know which is easier.
 
Switch
 
> Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 19:02:25 -0700
> From: varg...@yahoo.com

> Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

> To: storie...@googlegroups.com
>
>
> I'd say that's exactly backwards. I think amateurs are MORE likely to use 3rd person. They should; it's easier. But in this story, which really revolves around the change in Matt, the 1st person is right.

>
> My stories can be read on:
> http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas; http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.html

> http://www.mcstories.com
> http://www.eroticstories.com; http://storiesonline.net
> http://www.literotica.com
> http://www.the-impregnorium.com
>
>

> --- On Sun, 10/4/09, NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net> wrote:

>
> > From: NoGoodNick <NoGoo...@charter.net>
> > Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

> > To: "storiesonline" <storie...@googlegroups.com>
> > Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 6:49 PM
> >
> > > The best feedback I received from a mainstream
> > publisher was "show don't tell." Take note of that feedback
> > -- 1) it's what
> > > makes a novel alive, and 2) it seems to be what the
> > editors are looking for.
> > >
> > > I also got feedback concerning POV. I was told I was
> > "headbobbing" (jumping from point of view to point of view).
> > I wrote the
> > > novel right after reading "The Da Vinci Code" and
> > that's what Dan Brown did. He wrote very small chapters and
> > kept changing
> > > POV. In fact, I just  began his new novel and he
> > did the same thing. So the editors aren't always correct.
> >

> > That is one thing that's readily apparent about a lot of
> > stuff on SOL.
> > Like the fact that most stories are written from the first
> > person POV.
> > That's something that amateaurs almost always do but that
> > professional
> > writers almost never do. Writing from the 3rd person POV
> > makes it easy

> > to switch back and forth between characters. The 
> > writer of
> > "Robin" (previously commented on in another thread)
> > discovered that
> > part way into his 100+ chapter book, but by then (in the
> > chapter
> > teens) he decided it was too late to change, and was stuck
> > with
> > changed character POV ever after.
> >
> > Rules, as always, are made to be broken, but only if your
> > either VERY
> > talented or VERY lucky and probably both. If you can make
> > it work,
> > then stick it out. But I'd try both approaches and see just
> > which one
> > works the best for you. But be careful trying to "borrow"
> > writing
> > techniques or styles from another writer, because often it
> > will sound
> > like you are writing in two different styles.
> >
> > --- For as much as advice from a non-Author is worth! ---
> >
>
>
>

---

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Zine]

bb,

You're so annoyingly diplomatic. :)) Okay, for part of it, I have to
admit, I was trying out the voice I assign to my somewhat
stereotypical professor character, trying to fine tune it. Does it
work for you? How close did I come? For example, was it terse
enough? It's a serious question because I have a deadline.

Obviously, it's not all "spitting in the wind," (I love cliches, don't
you?) but then again, the prestige assigned to "published writer",
especially these days, is a dubious distinction. For example, didn't
rache mention that series based on an oceanographer/diver character in
the vein that one of the recent books in that adventure series was
pretty lame regarding grammatical mistakes? Then, there's Twilight,
which, I admit, is my personal whipping boy (girl?) regarding the
uncertainty of that honor, although there are others, unfortunately.
I suppose I like to pick on Twilight because if I see one more vampire
story I think I'll need a padded cell and a muzzle, if the need isn't
apparent already. Oh wait, I think I just dis-ed myself. Finally,
the rule of thumb regarding omitting e-published works from your cv
when approaching established, reputable, DT publishers, is still very
good advice.

At any rate, I thought my comments were very specific and as such did
not embrace the totality of what has been discussed in this group. If
I am in error, then I apologize most vociferously, good Sir.

Zine

On Oct 5, 5:07 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Zine]

bb,

You're an incorrigible tease, too, I see. And I already greeted
rewdius. Not exactly a hello, but a greeting nevertheless. :)

Zine

On Oct 5, 5:07 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Zine]

bb,

You're an incorrigible tease, too, I see. And I already greeted
rewdius. Not exactly a hello, but a greeting nevertheless. :)

Zine

On Oct 5, 5:07 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Zine]

SB,

Random House, Del Ray, Ballentine, Presidio, etc.

Random question, but did anyone see the SGU (star gate universe)
series pilot? The military guy doing the woman up against the wall?
Very hott. I didn't know military guys were allowed to wear bikini
briefs. Shows how much I know. But then one of his superiors,
probably a guy named Murphy, interrupted them by radio. Gratuitous
sex, but I think I'm going to like this new series.

Zine

On Oct 5, 5:49 pm, Switch Blayde <switch_bla...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Try the Del-Ray group.
>
> Zine,
>
> What is that? I googled it and didn't find a publisher.
>
> Switch
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 17:46:59 -0700
> > Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

> > From: mlle.euphros...@gmail.com

> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/

[bondi beach]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Switch Blayde <switch...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Try the Del-Ray group.
 

Zine,
 
What is that? I googled it and didn't find a publisher.

aren't they the same del-ray that used to publish science fiction pocket books in the 50s and 60s?

bb

[bondi beach]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

bb,

You're so annoyingly diplomatic. :))  Okay, for part of it, I have to
admit, I was trying out the voice I assign to my somewhat
stereotypical professor character, trying to fine tune it.  Does it
work for you?  How close did I come?  For example, was it terse
enough?  It's a serious question because I have a deadline.

well, honestly, kind of convoluted and unnecessarily snippy, to tell you the truth. i think your inner troll may have been whispering in your ear (from the inside, i guess, by definition). anyway, that's style, not substance. all i was trying to say about the substance of what you said is that there seems to be a lot going on in this discussion group that isn't directly related to writing technique.

whether an unpublished writer has anything useful to say to other unpublished writers i think is pretty obvious: the answer is yes, depending on the subject, because there's more to writing than getting published.

and if that isn't circular enough for you, give me a few minutes and i can probably tie it into a pretzel.

Obviously, it's not all "spitting in the wind," (I love cliches, don't
you?) but then again, the prestige assigned to "published writer",
especially these days, is a dubious distinction.  For example, didn't
rache mention that series based on an oceanographer/diver character in
the vein that one of the recent books in that adventure series was
pretty lame regarding grammatical mistakes?  Then, there's Twilight,
which, I admit, is my personal whipping boy (girl?) regarding the
uncertainty of that honor, although there are others, unfortunately.
I suppose I like to pick on Twilight because if I see one more vampire
story I think I'll need a padded cell and a muzzle, if the need isn't
apparent already.  Oh wait, I think I just dis-ed myself.  Finally,
the rule of thumb regarding omitting e-published works from your cv
when approaching established, reputable, DT publishers, is still very
good advice.

i know nothing about submitting an mss or a project to a dead tree publisher, but if you're right, that publisher is living in the past. he or she ought to take a look around at what is being "e-published." is electronic publishing the equivalent in any way, shape or form to printed work? absolutely not. i mean, we all know that what's between the covers is only part of the pleasure of a book. its look, heft, feel, the layout of the pages---all of those things can be a delight.

on the other hand, not everyone cares about holding a book in his or her hand, and for many people having a crappy paperback copy they can throw away at the end is all they need, and that's fine. but a book can be so much more, too.

is there a lot of garbage published in print? of course. it's hard to argue against multi-gazillion $$ sales, but anyone who tries to tell you that dan brown's stuff is anything other than crap, albeit mildly entertaining crap, isn't paying attention. he had one story that he's turned into what, three books now, at least? again, he's laughing all the way to the bank, so that's at least one very concrete measure of success, but certainly not in terms of literary merit.

At any rate, I thought my comments were very specific and as such did
not embrace the totality of what has been discussed in this group.  If
I am in error, then I apologize most vociferously, good Sir.

no offense taken (by me, anyway). no apology required. and i hope i haven't given any offense, either.

bb

[bondi beach]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

bb,

You're an incorrigible tease, too, I see.  And I already greeted
rewdius.  Not exactly a hello, but a greeting nevertheless. :)

well, good. remember, you're the one who introduced your twins into this discussion. (that's not a complaint.)

bb

[Zine]

bb,

Well, no. I refer to them as the twins, but I introduce them as The
Ladies (that's not an admonishment).

Zine

On Oct 5, 8:16 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Tim Merrigan]

Kind of reminds me of Dr. Pournelle saying once that he didn't care
about Nebulas (SFWA Award) (after failing to get one for the fourth or
fifth year in a row) as long as the royalty checks kept coming in.

> At any rate, I thought my comments were very specific and as such did
> not embrace the totality of what has been discussed in this group. If
> I am in error, then I apologize most vociferously, good Sir.
>
>
> no offense taken (by me, anyway). no apology required. and i hope i
> haven't given any offense, either.
>
> bb

[bondi beach]

On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 8:20 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

bb,

Well, no.  I refer to them as the twins, but I introduce them as The
Ladies (that's not an admonishment).

good to know. thanks.

bb

[Zine]

bb,

Snippy is actually good, so I'll keep it, but I think you're just
baiting me with convoluted.

Yes, a moratorium, please, on circular arguments while I"m still
seeing spots.

DTP vs e-P. DTPs still think the literary sun rises and sets on them,
and so they are slow to respond to the changing world, changed by the
awesome power of the internet. Because of this lack of vision, they
do not see that the future of publishing is written across the e-P
pages. Further, because they look down their noses at e-Ps, they
cannot see that as a result of this, their demise goes hand-in-hand
with that future as it is now written. We already outsource the
physical printing side of the industry, and we already use paper mfg.
in other countries. Because of down-sizing, and their mistaken belief
that writers of merit have no recourse but to wait on them and jump
through their hoops, DTPs are losing gold from their slush piles,
panhandled by e-Ps with the eye of the tiger. lower overhead, more
accommodating policies and more efficient work flow. I see the
current trend and the writing on the wall that goes with it as very
poetic justice, for an industry that claims to guard the gates of
literary quality but in reality stifles creativity by assigning
archaic perquisites and consequently starves that sector of our
entertainment industry. However, justice in the publishing industry,
like justice anywhere else except third-world countries, is very slow,
indeed.

I see the following basic process coming to fruition. Acquired works
will be e-published in e-book formats. Works that reach a certain pay-
back level and are deemed to still have legs, will then be offered in
paperback. Best sellers in paperback will provoke a hardback
edition. Established (money making) authors will continue to go to
the head of the line. Typesetting and printing will be outsourced.
There will be a global explosion of thought, slush piles will be
empty, our economy will shift to demand-side economics, and the world
will be wonderful again.

And then I woke up.

Zine

On Oct 5, 8:14 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Zine]

Tim,

I think you're talking about sour grapes. I don't have have any sour
grapes issues except for not making the tennis team in my freshman
year.

ZIne

On Oct 5, 8:52 pm, Tim Merrigan <t...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
> bondi beach wrote:
>

[hambone jones]

Your comments have seemed rather condescending to bb as well as the other posters.

--
Ham

[Zine]

HJ,

From your sentence structure, it would seem that you are the thread
spokesman. I would agree to presumptuous, even arrogant, depending on
the specific comment. As condescend has several different meanings, I
can only say that no one here or anywhere is inferior to me, except
for maybe scratch. As you specifically mentioned bb, I can assure you
that he is very capable of exacting his own satisfaction, although his
fencing technique may need some polishing. In any event, please feel
free to express any specific concerns and I'll do my best to address
them.

Now, with a name like that, I just have to ask, are you in the porn
industry?

Zine

[Rewdius]

> well, inner troll or not, say "hi" to the twins for me and rewdius, please.
>
> bb

bb,

What say you and I abscond with the pair in question, bringing along
the owner unharmed, of course, and tie the young lady to a king size
four-poster bed? You have a go at The Ladies while I scissor off
Homer's next incarnation and practice a few hours of the Greek and
Cyrillic alphabets using some linguistic skills of the pink-pickle
variety, and then switch off when our tongues get tired.

The mark is a young twenty something wearing a pair of highly
customized jeans, hiding behind a pair of unattractive glasses that
she hopes will prevent people from seeing the fire in her soul, with
shoulder length brown hair, and wearing a pair of sneakers that she
hopes will afford her a quick and ready exit. She's switches tops far
too often to establish a pattern so forget that article of clothing.
From her S&M days I'll have to assume she's still got a set of 'nines'
rolled up in her purse, so be sure to keep her hands in sight at all
times.

The password is 'Black' so don't give in until she's screaming it at
the top of her lungs, or until she passes out, which ever comes
first. Sound like a plan?

Eliston.

[bondi beach]

well, um, actually, i think i'm running as fast as i can in the other direction. never ever had any interest in a partner who wasn't participating voluntarily.

of course, if you included a winsome and fetching member of her tribe in the exercise, she might come willingly, who knows?

sorry, mate, but i think you're on your own in this one.

bb

[Deadly Ernest]

I love the Matt Helm novels, they're so realistic in the character
behaviours.

On Oct 6, 8:07 am, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Zine]

Rewdius,

Can't wait to see bb's reply to that one.

Zine

[bondi beach]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Deadly Ernest <ernest....@gmail.com> wrote:

I love the Matt Helm novels, they're so realistic in the character
behaviours.

i love his repeated line to the effect of "just shut up and shoot him," to someone who's going to blow the whole thing by yakking away (as occurs regularly on TV shows).

i was re-reading a couple of the early ones a few weeks ago---they're fast becoming artifacts of a different era: long disquisitions on why a lady should wear stockings, for example.

bb

[Rewdius]

On Oct 6, 10:52 am, Zine <mlle.euphros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rewdius,
>
> Can't wait to see bb's reply to that one.
>
> Zine
>

It looks like I'm gonna have to stick to *fictional* tales of
torturing young women for hours with my tongue, and NO, not by talking
them to death (stole your thunder, didn't I itch?)

Apologies, Mlle, but it looks like my talents are to be restricted to
written erotic pleasure of the most immoral kind rather than two to
four hours of my lingual ones with any living examples of my randy
fantasies.

I'll go ahead and get my own room now, one that has a vibrating bed
and those special pay channels I can't get at home.

bb, thanks for being straight up, Mate! At least I know that I'm on
my own with the ladies where ropes and bondage are concerned. Some of
itch must be rubbing off on me. DAMN!!!

Eliston.

[Zine]

bb,

Smart move.

Zine

On Oct 6, 11:45 am, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Zine]

Rewdius,

This is kinda like plugging in a horror DVD and seeing myself playing
one of the victims. Kinda creepy. Especially this part:

"The mark is a young twenty something wearing a pair of highly
customized jeans, hiding behind a pair of unattractive glasses that
she hopes will prevent people from seeing the fire in her soul, with
shoulder length brown hair, and wearing a pair of sneakers that she
hopes will afford her a quick and ready exit. She's switches tops far
too often to establish a pattern so forget that article of clothing.
From her S&M days I'll have to assume she's still got a set of 'nines'
rolled up in her purse, so be sure to keep her hands in sight at all
times."

Have you been stalking me? Geez... Except for the "customized"
jeans, and the reasons why I wear those glasses (although the fire is
true) and the sneakers (althought that's certainly part of it), that
kinda freaks me out.

Well, hate to burst the creative bubble surrounding your kidnap/rape
fantasy, but I'm 1st geup taekwondo (red belt), earned, not bought.
If someone were to try this for real, in all likelihood some of their
joints and pressure points would never be the same. I would enjoy
listening to them scream for several long seconds before they passed
out. Those seconds would seem like an eternity to them. They would
learn that there are worse things than guns and knives and whips, and
that they should pick their victims much more carefully. And when it
was over, I know from experience that I would puke my guts up all over
them. A dichotomy, to be sure. But thanks for the squick. I hope I
was able to return the favor.

Zine

On Oct 6, 10:19 am, Rewdius <rewd...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Fiend606]

I'm probably going a bit off topic with this but I'll say it anyway. I
have a great deal of appreciation for authors who share their efforts
online and usually for free. I read alot of stuff online because the
stories usually involve subject matter that just isn't available in
any other medium except the internet but I also really like the fact
that the work I'm reading is being written by people who aren't doing
it specifically for a monetary gain. I've had a few story ideas/
fantasies that I thought would be interesting to see written just for
myself and when I tried to put it down to text I realized I just don't
have the talent or skill to do it. It gave me a much larger
appreciation for the authors online who can and do produce material
that they share. I spent a whole weekend trying to write a short story
and by the end I deleted everything in frustration with how inept I
was at taking the material in my head and making it even moderately
readable. The most poorly written stories I've come across on ASSTR
and SOL were far better written than anything I could hope to write so
I'll stick to reading and enjoying other people's stuff. To the
author's who keep writing and post their efforts all I can say is
thanks because I know I couldn't do it and wouldn't even want to
contemplate the negative feedback I'd receive if I even tried.

On Oct 4, 9:51 pm, Homer Vargas <vargas...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wonder if the length is a problem for a publisher.  I like stories this size, but it is too small to be a novel and longer than a typical printed short story.
>
> My stories can be read on:http://www.asstr.org/files/Authors/Vargas;http://www.asstr.org/~Vargas/stories.htmlhttp://www.mcstories.comhttp://www.eroticstories.com;http://storiesonline.nethttp://www.literotica.comhttp://www.the-impregnorium.com
>
> --- On Sun, 10/4/09, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > From: bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: Well, ouch, but it hurts so good

> > To: storie...@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, October 4, 2009, 5:16 PM
>
> > On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 5:51 PM,
> > Switch Blayde <switch_bla...@hotmail.com>

> > wrote:
> >  
> > Specific feedback is great to get with a rejection. I
> > would guess most rejected manuscripts simply get a
> > "sorry, not for us" response.
>

> > thanks, SB and tim.
>
> > this was a solicited submission, in the sense that this
> > e-publisher solicits them, and i got the extra commentary
> > because i asked politely (just shy of groveling) for it. it
> > was still a great kindness on the part of the editor to
> > respond.
>
> > not a novel, a short story, just over 7K.

>
> >  
>
> > I also got feedback concerning POV. I was told I was
> > "headbobbing" (jumping from point of view to point
> > of view). I wrote the novel right after reading "The
> > Da Vinci Code" and that's what Dan Brown did. He
> > wrote very small chapters and kept changing POV. In fact, I
> > just began his new novel and he did the same thing. So the
> > editors aren't always correct.
>

> > wonder if he did it in his first
> > novel?

> >  
>
> > The feedback that was devastating was when the editor
> > said she hated my hero. She said he was well developed, but
> > she hated him because he was manipulative and a bunch of
> > other things. He was supposed to be that. Part of me was
> > glad I had that affect on her. You were supposed to hate him
> > in the beginning. He was after revenge and used the heroine
> > to get at her husband (how did he know he was going to fall
> > in love with her?). The reason it was devastating was
> > because I was targeting the Erotic Romance genre and learned
> > that none of my heroes would fall into that genre (my
> > characters aren't the alpha male single-dimension type).
> > I knew the editor thought the novel was well written because
> > she gave me her private email to resubmit after revising
> > the novel, but I never did.
>

> > i think you're right---the reader has to care enough
> > about the character to hate him or her.
>
> > as for the one-dimensional alpha hero, that's exactly
> > what folks like spice and harlequin want. i don't have
> > any problem in principle with trying to meet those
> > requirements---it's a writing exercise---but it's
> > hard to do (duh). i've been doing some professional
> > reading (as it were) and finding most of the stories kind of
> > lifeless, albeit very well-written technically. but there
> > must be something in those cardboard characters that
> > attracted an editor.

>
> > And ... keep trying. I
> > gave up because I can't find a
> > mainstream erotic publisher that isn't Romance and I
> > don't write that. If I ever find a mainstream Erotic

> > Murder Mystery publisher, I'll try again. You should
> > keep trying.
>
> > are you sure there aren't any?
>
> > bb

[bondi beach]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Zine <mlle.eu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Rewdius,

of course, R just described something on the order of 40% of undergraduate women on almost any given campus, except in southern california where by law 80% of undergraduate women must be blonde, so maybe it's not quite that personal.
 

that they should pick their victims much more carefully.  And when it
was over, I know from experience that I would puke my guts up all over
them.

a very nice touch, that.

but what do you do when you're taken by surprise---i mean, say, the other person, male or female, passes you on the path then whirls and clobbers you from behind? i'll buy that if you can get yourself set you'll probably come out on top, but what if you can't?

bb

[Rewdius]

Okay, folks. It's time to set the records absolutely straight.

I don't do anything that's forced upon anyone, anywhere, anytime.
This has all been a very tongue-in-cheek attempt at fun and I have no
desire to get anyone's ire up, least of all any women or lesser
persons on this group.

Okay? Everything all better now?

For the record, I much prefer to use technology to effect my deeds,
especially when an individual may cause me harm. Rather than be close
enough to be forced to the ground squealing like a six year old, I
*much* prefer to reach out and touch someone from long distance. Only
after they're no longer twitching would I dare approach them and task
off with some vile activity that wouldn't be seen by anyone in a few
thousand miles.

Creepy? Yeah, but since I hate writing about physical, emotional,
psychological, and physical abuse, why would I consider extending that
horror onto anyone in the real world? But since we're talking about
fantasy, and erotic fantasy at that, I like to let the creative juices
flow and conceive of things that others might not have considered.

Why don't I write any of this stuff down in some disgusting fiction?
Because I really don't want to give anyone any new ideas. There are
already thousands of ways to hurt people. I don't need to come up
with any new ones.

NOW -- bb, congrats again on your efforts. If I ever get good enough
at my prurient fiction I *may* attempt something as ballsy as what you
did.

Wait a minute -- didn't I already say that? Oh yeah! I was trying to
make my post relevant to the thread. My bad!

Eliston.

>
> Well, hate to burst the creative bubble surrounding your kidnap/rape
> fantasy, but I'm 1st geup taekwondo (red belt), earned, not bought.
>

[bondi beach]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Rewdius <rew...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have no
desire to get anyone's ire up, least of all any women or lesser
persons on this group.

 

"women or lesser persons on this group"?

oh man, does this kind of thing come naturally to you, or do you work on it? if i were you, i'd start running now, ducking, too.
 

NOW -- bb, congrats again on your efforts.  If I ever get good enough
at my prurient fiction I *may* attempt something as ballsy as what you
did.

thank you (again), but i'm not quite sure that it required much courage or very many balls. all you have to do is press "send." all they can say is "no," and any one of your readers on SOL can tell you the same thing, if they choose.

bb

[Zine]

bb,

Umm... could you rephrase that first para? Switching my thinking from
French to English leaves me dazed for a while. I'm not sure what it
is you're saying 40/80 percent of undergrad women do.

I could probably say something flippant like, hey, might as well lay
back and enjoy the tag-team cunnilingus, it might be the biggest "O"
ever, but you never know whether impressionable minds are reading this
or not.

So, a serious answer. If I was totally owned by this guy, the theory
is that I should just pretend to give in, temporarily, until I have a
realistic chance to escape. Easy to say, very hard to do, I think.
The idea is that if you pretend to give in, he'll either lose
interest, or make a mistake you can take advantage of.

I'd probably become at least semi-hysterical and forget that I'm
supposed to not fight but pretend to go along with it. Part of the
TKD training is to teach you to overcome fear, but rape is one of
those things that we probably fear the most out of everything, and one
of those things where you really can't predict how you'll react. You
can't really know until it happens. You can only hope and pray that
when the opportunity to stop him presents itself, your training will
kick in like it's supposed to and make your responses automatic. The
outcome will probably not be good, whatever it is.

So prevention is the thing. I never travel alone. At night, I never
pass anyone within ten feet, whether I know them or not. And day or
night, I never allow myself to lose awareness of my surroundings.
Hopefully, my reaction time will be faster than his, and he'll never
gain control, because the theory is that rape is about anger and
control, not about sex.

Zine

On Oct 6, 4:38 pm, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[Tim Merrigan]

Zine wrote:
> bb,
>
> Umm... could you rephrase that first para? Switching my thinking from
> French to English leaves me dazed for a while. I'm not sure what it
> is you're saying 40/80 percent of undergrad women do.
>

Wear tight jeans and sneakers, I think, and maybe glasses. (Probably
not carrying cats in their purses.)

[Zine]

Rewdius!

I can't believe you said that! You should be ashamed of yourself!
Come on. Ten rosaries, right now, right here on this cold, hard
floor, and no trips to the necessary room until you've finished.
Begin this instant or I'll spank, and it won't be on your bottom!
Women or lesser persons indeed!

I was just pushing your buttons with the stalking remark, and I do
realize it was all in good fun, so no worries. But as I hear certain
people are keeping an eye on you, I can understand why you'd want to
set the record straight. :)

Zine

[Zine]

Tim,

I get it. Educated guess. I can sign off on that, no prob.

Zine

[Deadly Ernest]

The scene I like best is where he calls on a house and the lady of the
house answers in a negligée, so he glances through the crack to see if
someone is waiting to hit him on the head - every time a woman gives
him the come on, he waits for the drugs or the attack - got to love
the down to earth attitude.

As to discussions, the story where he recognises his boss is being
faked because he used a word incorrectly is lovely, that's called
'knowing your boss is a pedantic.'

they have lots of action, but it's all realistic and not far out, like
many books and films - sadly, the idiots who bought the film rights in
the `960s thought they would make better Bond style comedies and
messed up the few they made - Dean Martin and bikini clad girl enemies
acting like girlfriends were pure crap and never in the stories. Burt
Reynolds has the film rights at the moment, but hasn't done anything
with them. Hope he does it right when he does make a film.

On Oct 7, 2:58 am, bondi beach <bondi.beach....@gmail.com> wrote:

[bondi beach]

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 7:13 PM, Deadly Ernest <ernest....@gmail.com> wrote:

they have lots of action, but it's all realistic and not far out, like
many books and films - sadly, the idiots who bought the film rights in
the `960s thought they would make better Bond style comedies and
messed up the few they made - Dean Martin and bikini clad girl enemies
acting like girlfriends were pure crap and never in the stories. Burt
Reynolds has the film rights at the moment, but hasn't done anything
with them. Hope he does it right when he does make a film.

so happy to be able to say that i never saw any of those films. it's criminal what they did.

bb

[Rewdius]

Z,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news again, but when I was twelve I
gave up pretending to practice Catholicism for Lent because of the
rampant hypocrisy -- most of it within my own family. I was a
religious rebel back then and it stirred a lot of very angry Sunday
morning *discussions* at an elevated volume about my reluctance to
being saved.

Ashamed? HA! I sneer in your general direction (assuming I'm looking
up from under the bleachers) and mock any attempt to draw me down to
the floor in some feeble effort at remorse. And only ten minutes?
Gee, the priests that *knew* me (in the biblical sense) when I was a
lithe young lad with a blank conscience and an impressionable demeanor
had me on my hands and knees for at least thirty, and that was just
for the prelim's. After the bishop arrived .... whew!!!

Necessary room = problem; solution = Depends, Baby! Depends! And
they have the added benefit of protecting one's arse from unexpected
and bright smacks too.

A might touchy on the 'tender-gender' comments, aye? If I'm not
careful I might start getting hate mail from a whole new demographic
now. Oh goody! (not!)

On a more serious note, I've known far too many unfortunate girls,
young women, and grown women who've been at the receiving end of an
unwanted request to be a dance partner with a brute. I wish that
crime would be punishable by death, or at least a nice public observed
total castration. The punishment should fit the crime, if you ask me.

I congratulate you on your rather skillful description of how NOT to
be a victim. More women of every age group need to learn very early
that some men aren't to be trusted because it's a hormonal thing.
I've never enjoyed being lumped in the group that's associated with
unwelcome advances and physical abuse, but I had no choice in the
matter when my parents were celebrating one aspect of the bible's
teachings.

As far as itch, I've posted a rather perverse story just the other day
that I hope turns his leather whip into a nice tight knot. I normally
don't write stories with a dark ending, but I needed to illustrate a
kind of cruelty in his playground that hopefully sent a painful
message. If he has any sort of conscience at all he'll read past the
words and open more than his eyes.

For the record I've had a broad range of comments and scores on that
piece, from a few tens with verbal nominations for a Golden C. Award,
to all zeros and a nasty email telling me that the story was fine
until the last few paragraphs. What can I say? I guess stirring
emotions at both ends means that I've done a fairly decent job of
stirring the readers.

To be honest, I've got more stories involving light BDSM, but I'm not
sure if I should post them because they're outside of my tender and
loving identity. No need to harp on that since we've discussed it
before.

Ah well . . . now I've got to figure out which dart to use and how
much nerve block will be effective for someone of your stature.

Eliston.

-----------------

[bondi beach]

On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 2:20 AM, Rewdius <rew...@gmail.com> wrote:

I congratulate you on your rather skillful description of how NOT to
be a victim.  More women of every age group need to learn very early
that some men aren't to be trusted because it's a hormonal thing.

hormones caused the guy to rape her (or him)?

bb

[Rewdius]

> hormones caused the guy to rape her (or him)?
>
> bb

This may be one of those religious or political styled flame war
igniters, but it is my belief and contention that hormones are the
leading cause of death, pain, life, and joy on this planet. It's
whether the parties involved were willing to participate when the
hormones were flooding their systems that makes this a potentially
offensive situation.

Big whoop? Consider how many murders are committed by people that are
bent on revenge, avarice, lust, or just plain mental lapses. Add to
that sexual assaults. Oh yeah, then there's war. That has to be the
biggest one on my list of things never to start when I've got a story
to finish or the yard to mow.

I'd also have to openly admit that if it weren't for hormones a major
portion of our literary history would read like the installation
manual for a new TV or microwave, so it goes both ways.

The problem is when some people allow their hormones to be affected by
their emotions, thus spiraling their actions into something we might
read about in a story blog or see on the evening news.

My point? Hormones don't commit rape and murder, people do. But most
of those people (men) are hopped up on more adrenaline and
testosterone than is fit for human consumption by a single intelligent
individual. I won't go into the dangerous minefield of or tilt
against any estrogen windmills at the moment. I'm already in enough
hot water with Z as it is.

Eliston.

[Zine]

You're such a gentleman, R, thank you.

Zine

[Zine]

R,

You can say ten rosaries in ten minutes? You must be an auctioneer.
Still, I'll believe it when I see it.

Well, I'm sorry that happened to you, of course.

So, I'm getting the idea you're not very contrite. Oh, well. Yes, I'm
sensitive about many women's issues; it comes with the gender, I
believe.

Well, there are many sexist things, like manhandling on the dance
floor, vulgar comments and jokes, cat calls and bad pick-up lines,
that we women pretty much have to put up with the least of, all day,
every day, or we'd be doing nothing but going to court and looking for
a new job. No wonder some women go militant and postal. Basically, I
call all that sexist bullying, and it's very pervasive. If you think
it's just on the dance floor, then I think mayhap you don't get out
much.

I also carry a panic button and a gizmo I call a screamer, part high-
intensity strobe light and ear-piercing alarm. I don't carry pepper
spray or anything else that can be taken away and used against me.
And, I make full use of campus security escorts, somebody always knows
my itinerary, I'm mobile, and my car has a gps locater. Short of
living in a panic room, I think I'm as safe as practicable. And I
don't take candy from strangers or go on lost puppy hunts. :)

I don't know if it's hormones or pheromones, but I do know they work
both ways.

I'm glad you got your story out, I'll try to look it up some time
soon.

Zine

[Zine]

R,

A man posts a new thread, asking a pointed question that generally
only a woman (or a coached man) would be able to answer. Invariably,
within the hour several men post their authoritative answers.
Hormones or pheromones?

Zine

On Oct 7, 1:42 pm, Rewdius <rewd...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Rewdius]

> R,

>
> I'm glad you got your story out, I'll try to look it up some time
> soon.
>
> Zine

As always and for every author, feedback, feedback, feedback.

Oh yeah, candid feedback goes much further than "WOW! Great story!",
and for the record (and the umpteenth time) I'll eagerly and
graciously accept constructive criticism. As long as there's some
measure of supporting data to illustrate where I diverted from reality
a bit too much or took too much literary license and didn't find the
right section in my "99 Rules for Porn Writers" or "Porn Writing for
Dummies" guides, I consider bad news good news.

For the record, she's underage and dies, so don't get your pantyhose
in a twist and tell me you were shocked later.

Eliston.

[Rewdius]

> R,

>
> Well, there are many sexist things, like manhandling on the dance

> floor, .....

>
> If you think it's just on the dance floor, then I think mayhap you
> don't get out much.
>

> > On Oct 7, 2:20 am, Rewdius <rewd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On a more serious note, I've known far too many unfortunate girls,
> > young women, and grown women who've been at the receiving end of an
> > unwanted request to be a dance partner with a brute.

It appears my attempt at subtlety is akin to my abilities at humor, so
I promise not to quit my day job. I just hope my customers don't find
out 'cause they'll think I decided to go back to work again and bother
me with lots of bothersome phone calls.

Allow me to drop the Victorian façade and be blunt. Here's the
modified comment:

On a more serious note, I've known far too many unfortunate girls,

young women, and grown women who've been raped, some of them brutally,
and one underage angel who's been brutalized repeatedly for over four
years by a person in an authority position. She's too afraid to say
anything because he has 'friends' and he threatens to invite them over
for a 'visit' if she doesn't play along. I've tried to help but she's
adamantly refused because she's literally afraid for her life. On a
more positive note, another unfortunate young thing dropped dime on
the bastard and he's now behind bars, hopefully for a very long time,
but the young lady I was originally referring to *still* won't say
anything because she's terrified he'll exact revenge from his cold
cell.

This is a very touchy subject with me because I've had to listen and
often times offered a shoulder to far too many harmed and abused women
of various ages, and I wish there was something we (as a civilized
people) could do to 'fix' these bastards once and for all.

Alright, alright! I'll climb down off my soap box now. I think I've
made my point (and then some).

And people wonder why I try so hard to illustrate a more gentle and
tender side of immoral sex. Hmmm . . .

No worries, ladies. I'll burn in Hell for eternity or spend two years
inside the local IRS tax office in a multi-year audit for my own
crimes, in spite of any attempt to improve my Karma.

Eliston.

[Zine]

R,

I'm trying to rub the sleep out of my eyes and the keyboard imprint
off my forehead while I wait for the slowest coffee pot ever made. I
think today will be the day I trade it in for a 2 cup-er. They have
to be faster.

I fell asleep on The Daily Beast's "The Best College Food" article by
Kathleen Kingsbury, (actually in the middle of the linked gallery) a
piece that I think is derivative of one in the Princeton Review.
After reading about ergo-space architecture, gourmet coffee,
organically grown produce, Wonk-A-Ville, watermelon, cucumber or lemon
flavored tap water, and chefs trained in France, my last thoughts were
about how terrorism isn't the only depressing news one may find on the
internet. So there you have it, the typical beginning and end to one
of my perfect days. Oh, good, the coffee is done, maybe now I can get
on topic and be more responsive and less random.

I guess I did miss your subtlety for the pure fact that I don't equate
sexual harassment with sexual assault. I saw your idea of punishment
for sexual harassment as extreme. But I chose not to comment in the
hope that the conversation cruise ship would sail away from the two
topical islands named Rape and Senseless Violence. But the ship seems
to be at anchor. Very well.

As much as I empathize with your point of view, I can neither advocate
capital punishment for a crime that does not end in the death of a
victim, nor advocate cruel and unusual punishment. I don't need to be
a Supreme Court Justice to comprehend that both of those things are
unconstitutional. But considering the high level and duration of
trauma that a severely abused victim of a violent crime (child sexual
abuse should be considered a violent crime) can go through and the
supposed high recidivism rate among child sex abusers in particular, I
find it easy to advocate life in prison without possibility of parole
for those first time offenders where the victim's trauma is severe, or
they may be judged sociopathic (they're driven by impulses, enjoyed
what they did, have no remorse, and cannot learn from their mistakes),
or both. For second offenders, I think the re-offense should be prima
face evidence of sociopathy. Two strikes and you're out, if you will,
and in either case their sentence should include hard labor. And, I
think the level of proof for this should be raised to beyond a
reasonable doubt, because of the severity of the punishment and the
fact that I don't agree that it's better to risk putting one innocent
man in jail rather than risk allowing one guilty man go free. That's
not my idea of justice, and neither is guilty until proven innocent.

But if we're going to permanently remove his or her liberty, we should
be God damned sure he or she is guilty because every life is
priceless, not just the lives of children. And if that means we have
to exercise the "Escape from New York" option, then that's what it
means. You can't complain about justice not being served if you're
unwilling to pay for the prisons, because the alternative is lesser
charges, lesser punishments, a revolving door and/or the early release
of lesser offenders, in case anyone hasn't noticed.

It doesn't matter what she thinks he'll do from his cell or whether
she's lying or not. There are people trained to deal with that and a
whole lot more. Do the right thing, for her sake. According to you,
she's already endured four years. All you're doing is postponing the
help she needs and putting yourself at very great risk. There's a
slim chance she'll get through this intact without professional help,
because the last three cars on that train without it, are drugs,
alcohol and suicide. Some statistics don't lie. Is that what you
want her life to be? Make sure you tell her that she did nothing
wrong, that what the man did was wrong, and that none of what happened
is her fault. Then make the call. Do it before he gets out on bail,
because he might not be restricted from her. It's the responsible
thing to do.

I think the best overall thing society can do is eradicate gender bias
and the double standard. I won't hold my breath.

Zine

[Crazy Racer]

Rewdius has it right about "candid feedback" although I would say "specific"
rather than "candid". And, as he says, the comments should be supported by
examples that give rise to the comment.

If I may offer another thought about increasing the likelihood that the comments
will be appreciated and accepted, criticism should start with a well-founded
compliment, supported by specific example. Then one can point opportunities to
improve. Finally, finish with a well-founded complimentary summary.

Hug, kick, hug.

Suggestively,

Crazy

[Zine]

CR & R,

Thanks for the lecture re: definition of constructive criticism, a
definition generally known by most high school-ers. In the literary
world, this is called taking the reader for granted, or the urge to
explain. Just an observation. Need I say that if I can't finish the
story, no critique will be forthcoming?

Zine

[Rewdius]

On Oct 8, 8:42 am, Zine <mlle.euphros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> CR & R,
>
> Thanks for the lecture re: definition of constructive criticism, a
> definition generally known by most high school-ers.
>

> Zine
>

No lecture or offense intended, and none taken.

Eliston.

[TheDarkKnight]

On Oct 8, 8:48 am, "Crazy Racer" <newsh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>

> If I may offer another thought about increasing the likelihood that the comments
> will be appreciated and accepted, criticism should start with a well-founded
> compliment, supported by specific example. Then one can point opportunities to
> improve. Finally, finish with a well-founded complimentary summary.
>
> Hug, kick, hug.

In my experience as a soccer coach that is called the sandwich
technique, but I like your terminology better. I might have to steal
that if I ever teach a coaching clinic again. The 'hug' part can get
a little tricky when you are a guy coaching a girls' team though.