Interview with Chinese Dissident Harry Wu; J.R. Nyquist; March 19, 1999

[kabud]

Interview with Chinese Dissident Harry Wu; J.R. Nyquist; March 19,
1999

http://web.archive.org/web/20000524142441/www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/3/19/34837

Harry Wu was a political prisoner in China's labor camps for almost
twenty years. After his release from the labor camp system, Mr. Wu
immigrated to the United States and has authored books on the Chinese
labor camps. Mr. Wu is presently a human rights advocate, speaking on
behalf of the twenty million inmates who presently suffer in China's
labor reform camps.

JRN: Mr. Wu, how would you explain the Chinese forced labor system?

WU: Oh, it's simple. Every totalitarian system needs a suppression
machine. Hitler needed a holocaust, Stalin needed a Gulag. Of course,
the Chinese communists needed something as well. They need this
suppression machine to stay in power, to safeguard their rule. This
system is called Laogai.

JRN: So Chinese forced labor is not just for manufacturing goods and
services?

WU: In China they say: "Reform first, production second." First of
all, let me explain to you what is the meaning of Laogai. You know,
before 1974, the Gulag was not a word. After Alexander Solzhenitsyn
published Gulag Archipelago, he won the Nobel Prize, and then people
understood the meaning of Gulag. Well, Laogai is the Chinese Gulag. It
means labor camps. It means torture. It means physical violence.
Laogai is taken from two Chinese words. Lao means labor, and gai means
reform. So Laogai signifies "reform through labor." I am fighting to
put Laogai in every dictionary, in every language, in every country,
just as Gulag is in the dictionary.

JRN: How do the Chinese people feel about the Laogai system?

WU: If you have a chance to go to China or talk to Chinese people, if
your pronunciation is good in Chinese, you say: "Hey, I heard a word,
Laogai." All the people know it. Millions of people. Tens of millions
have been prisoners in Laogai. People don't call it prison or jail.
They merely say Laogai. Reform through labor. According to Chinese
communist ideology, whatever your crime, they will give you a lesson.
They will give you training. If you are a petty thief, if you are a
racist, you need to be reformed. And this is because you have
capitalist ideas in your head. The communists say that people with
such ideas don't want to labor. They say you're different from the
working class or the peasant class. You belong to the bourgeois class
and -- according to the communists -- you are trying to exploit
people. So you are a criminal, a political dissident. You are standing
on the opposite side of the Communist Party, against the workers and
peasants. So when you receive a sentence, let's say for five years,
they say, this is opportunity for the Communist Party, for the
government to reform you, to make you a new socialist person.

JRN: So the labor camp system is about thought reform?

WU: Yes. Hitler had a slogan: "Labor makes free." And the Chinese have
a similar slogan: "Labor makes new life." The Chinese Communists want
to reform you, to make you a good citizen in a communist society. This
is brainwashing. For this process, an American type of prison won't
work. American inmates can read books, lift weights, think for
themselves. In the Chinese system you have to labor. The idea is to
use your sweat, your hard labor to change your mind. Of course, you
have to confess, you have to admit your crime, right or wrong.

JRN: How does confession lead to the brainwashing you speak of?

WU: Confession is a way to destroy your dignity. It puts an end to
religion, for example. The communists say: "We're not going to help
you become a Catholic or Protestant. We want you to become socialist
person." Of course, you have to give up your beliefs. If your
political performance or your labor performance is not satisfactory,
if it does not meet the standard they have set, even if you have
already served your 5 year sentence, the warden will say: "I cannot
let you go because you have not become a new socialist person." So you
have to stay in the camp.

JRN: So the purpose is to control your mind?

WU: Yes. They want your mind. And that's why I say Hitler was stupid.
He set up gas chambers to destroy people physically, right? But the
Chinese communists have a different idea. A human being has a brain.
If they can reprogram people they can make their regime wealthy.

JRN: About how many hours a day do they spend on political
indoctrination in the labor camps?

WU: The early Laogai regulation says 10 to 12 hours. But actually,
there's no limitation. I was nineteen years in the camps. We worked
while it was light. When the sun went down we studied Mao Zedong
thought, usually for two hours. We mostly read The People's Daily.

JRN: But did you believe in Mao Zedong thought? Did it make you into a
new socialist person?

WU: I once talked to a Soviet Gulag survivor. It seems communist
systems have some differences. In Gulag system, in holocaust system,
they don't have a brainwashing program. So the Soviet Gulag survivor
asked me: "Harry, are you sure that a person can be psychologically
and spiritually reformed?" And I say, "Yeah, I do believe that." Now,
how do they do it? This is very new for these Gulag survivors, because
in their system it is mostly physical torture. They don't have a
program to reform your brain. But in China when we walk to work we are
forced to sing songs. These songs say that Chairman Mao is a great
father, that the Communist Party is glorious and its political line is
correct. We sing about the bright future communism will bring. This is
very normal in Chinese camps. When you read The People's Daily you
have to agree with it. You cannot say I disagree. There is a prison
regulation that is called "Stand Together With the Government." If you
disagree with the government and the party you remain a criminal. So
you have to agree. So you chant slogans. Every day you say: "I am for
communism." You say: "I'll go to my death fighting for communism." You
say: "I regret becoming a criminal and I'm sorry for hurting my
motherland." But these words are not enough. Anyone can speak the
words and not mean it. But if you want to get out of camp you will
take these words to heart. And if you repeat these slogans day after
day, month after month, year after year, a lie becomes the truth. You
start to believe.

JRN: So the people in the camps really do become brainwashed, then?

WU: Oh, yeah, it's a brainwashing system.

JRN: What sort of people get sent to the camps, usually?

WU: In communist China what is the political concept? Class struggle.
Class revolution. Okay, they divide the people by class. For example,
there is the bourgeois class, the landlord class, the working class,
and the peasant class. According to communism all crime stems from
property. Some people have no property, some have big property. Some
have money and others have no money. Those who have big property and
those who have money are criminals.

JRN: So they have to be arrested and sent to camps?

WU: In the first 30 years they almost physically eliminated the so-
called "bourgeois class." How did they do it? Persecution, torture,
and the Laogai system.

JRN: So the camps were used to eliminate people, too?

WU: For thirty years they constantly talked about the class struggle
and "class enemies." If a poor peasant is caught stealing food to
survive he might get a short sentence, maybe a few months. That is
difficult, but he can survive. On the other hand, if you are from the
landlord class, or the middle class, you get a long sentence, and even
when your time is up they keep you over because you're not a new
socialist person. After twenty or thirty years in camp, you weaken and
die.

JRN: Would most Americans qualify as criminals according to Chinese
law?

WU: Yes. Most Americans are bourgeois.

JRN: Do the Chinese communists want to "liquidate" the bourgeoise
everywhere?

WU: Oh, yeah, this is their duty, this is their mission.

JRN: When China builds nuclear weapons, is that part of achieving this
goal?

WU: I think so, because they want to become a powerful country. They
want to launch the Revolution -- the Communist Revolution --
everywhere. You heard about Pol Pot, right? The killing fields? Okay.
The world has to know: Without Chinese communist support, Pol Pot
cannot slaughter two million people. Pol Pot and his colleagues were
fully trained in China, in Chinese Communist Party schools. They got
all kinds of equipment, not only weapons -- from rubber shoes to their
caps. All the money came from China.

JRN: But haven't the Chinese communists moderated their position?

WU: China needs to catch up with the West. So they get involved with
capitalism. But that's just something they're doing because they don't
have the brute strength to win. They need money to build up their
military strength. That is what they are doing.

JRN: North Korea has been threatening war in recent weeks. What is
China's relation to North Korea?

WU: North Korea only has one friend today. That is China. You see the
Four Party Talks? America and South Korea are on one side, while China
and North Korea are on the other.

JRN: Will China fight on the same side as North Korea in a future war?

WU: The Chinese and North Koreans remain communists. They are
brothers, so they will stand together. Yes.

JRN: In recent weeks the North Koreans have made many threats. They
are saying, for example, that America is going to be reduced to ash.

WU: Why do the North Koreans have the ability to make this threat?
North Korea is almost a bankrupt. Where do they get the money to build
their army? Where do they get the technology? Where they go these
things? They get it all from China.

JRN: Should the United States be trading with China? Or should we cut
off trade?

WU: Is it right to trade with evil people?

JRN: So Henry Kissinger was mistaken in his idea of China becoming
America's friend?

WU: Kissinger was totally wrong.

JRN: So you think China is still America's enemy?

WU: They teach their people that America is the enemy. Americans never
hear about this because some people in the United States want to hush
it up. You see, American business has made a big investment in China.
So they will not tell you the bad things that are going on in China.
They don't want people to say, "Hey, it's a terrible country, why do
you make friends with them?"

JRN: Do you think Red China would ever unleash nuclear weapons?

WU: It could, if the communists want to survive.

JRN: And what do you think of President Clinton's trip last summer to
China?

WU: Well, he received the red carpet, a national banquet, and he shook
hands with the butchers he condemned in 1992 on the Tiananmen site.

JRN: That's pretty bad.

WU: Well, he wanted a donation.

JRN: How would you characterize the ruling Communist Party in China. I
mean, what sort of people are they?

WU: Butchers.

JRN: These are the people our businessmen and politicians are giving
technology to make state-of-the-art nuclear weapons?

WU: Yeah, you remember the Soviet leader, Lenin's word: "The
capitalist want to buy the rope that will hang them."

JRN: It looks like that's what they're doing.

WU: And they do it all the time.

JRN: Maybe China is more efficient at exploiting us than Russia was?

WU: Any totalitarian society is very effective, and more effective
than democracy at this sort of game, because one guy manipulates
everything. You don't need discussion. You don't need debate. Whatever
he says, you do.

JRN: So maybe Westerners have indulged in wishful thinking when they
imagine that communism is going to collapse in China.

WU: You know, everyone -- including you and me -- we're selfish, okay?
We're seeking money, we're seeking peace, we're seeking the good life
-- a good car, a big house. But there are principles that have to be
followed. There's a price for having a good country. Unfortunately,
some people have betrayed these principles. What more is there to say?

JRN: Thank you Mr. Wu.