FW: FW: Brian Czech responds to Paul Krugman in the Huffington Post
biz modl
hi folks,
perhaps you have heard that a component of mondragon has gone bust. here is an analysis of what happened:
here are some collectivist responses to the same events:
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/19704-mondragon-and-the-system-problem
http://geo.coop/content/gar-alperovitz-and-mondragon-fagor-bankruptcy
you see how hard it is to change the primate biogram? why did fagor fail? J
have fun, biz
From: biz modl [mailto:biz...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 3:20 PM
To: 'steady...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: FW: Brian Czech responds to Paul Krugman in the Huffington Post
hi folks,
mondragon is a good example of how a 'non-capitalist' social structure can follow the primate biogram of hierarchy (status) and center/periphery. the wage differentials insure that production differentials are recognized (status and rewards) and the owner/non-owner distinction places non-owner workers on the boundary (they are typically laid off before 'owners'). and, of course, there is the inevitable hierarchy needed to coordinate an organization with this scale.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation#Business_culture
re: the harris model, the selection criteria is 'what is the least effort path to sustenance (food, shelter, clothing), sex and love (belonging)'. while I suspect the work environment creates opportunities for male and female worker to meet (sex), the key benefits appear to be wages to acquire food, shelter, clothing (sustenance) and solidarity (love).
the next question, from a steady state point of view, about mondragon is 'is it a zero growth production system?' the organization appears to be following the 'capitalist' model of growth and expansion ('growth' of coops is 'good'). the reward system still incents the organization to make 'more' and acquires worker effort with unequal distribution of benefits by packaging it in a 'solidarity' wrapper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation#Reactions
I am guessing that the wage differentials are worker approved - so at mondragon equity doesn’t meant equality J this is no surprise. I havent run across any malibu socialists with their hearty concern for the poor (as they munch on their 10 dollar organic muffins looking out on the ocean) who advocate equality of wealth as social justice - they advocate equality of opportunity.
this corresponds to the different types of social justice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice#Theories_of_distributive_justice
mondragon is playing the same game - the primate biogram wins every time J
have fun, biz
From: steady...@googlegroups.com [mailto:steady...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John deC.
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 11:41 AM
To: steady...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: FW: Brian Czech responds to Paul Krugman in the Huffington Post
You make some good points, Keith, but I think the huge and subtle war is actually between Earth and the capitalist system itself. Regardless of whether my iPhone keeps the NSA from spying on me and never mind that a government emerges that is more attuned to systems of taxation, subsidy, and other policies so green businesses have a fighting chance, we are still living on a planet that is destined to experience drastic climate change in the next generation or two.
In what way do you think my ideas belong to a world that is passing? I'm curious how you see that, Keith.
On Monday, October 20, 2014 3:10:24 AM UTC-7, Keith Hudson wrote:
"You see, the US empire really is collapsing . . "
Yes, the US empire is collpasing. The US government is becoming increasingly inept. But ~america itself it not collapsing. There never has been so much research done in previous times as today. About half of all research in the world is carried out in America (half of that by researchers who were born elsewhere). Scientific rearch (basic and applied) of the US, Germany, UK and Israel is about 95% of all research in the world.
What you have to bear in mind, John, is that what is going on now is a huge and subtle war going on between major businesses and governments which have over-reached themselves. Governments are desperately competing between themselves by means of taxattion advantagers offered to major businesses. Major businesses are now resisting further government encroachments into personal liberty and private information. Apple and others are now producing mobile phones which prevent government intrusion. Google is actually laying down international optic-fibre systems and total encryption which will be inpenetrable by governments.
The co-operatives you mention may well have a good future -- let us hope so -- but only in so far as they are successful businesses. They may well have the sort of managerial system which major multinationals will increasingly follow. They have, in fact, been lateralising hugely in the last 50 years -- whereas governments are still military-style top-down pyramidal structures which were designed 150 years ago. Our so-called democratic structure is a farce. The public in an advanced country has far more power as customers than as the electorate.
"The BRICS nations are building an alternative to the evil IMF and World Bank"
No, they're getting nowhere. They have got so far, but they're going backwards relatively. Even China is getting stuck now becajuse its authoritarian system can't produce anywhere near enough innovative minds. Even with its common wirrten language which enable top-down control for the last 2,200 years ever since Emperor Qin bound together five or six separate countries is showing signs of break-up. There are already signs that some of the provinces are loughing their own furrows. The central government has not been able to re-inegrate Hong Kong, for example, because of notions of competition and individual freedom that were already implanted.
Most of your ideas, John, belong to a world that's passing. Wake up, different governmental systems are taking shape.
Keith
At 00:16 20/10/2014, you wrote:Or better yet, compete and argue! There are great efforts at competition with the system of predatory capitalism all over the globe now: the Mondragon cooperative in Spain, Credit Agricole Group, the largest retail banking group in France, health cooperatives in the Netherlands, Consorzio Cooperative Costruzioni in Italy, and thousands more. The BRICS nations are building an alternative to the evil IMF and World Bank...should be interesting to see how that turns out! Brazil, Venezuela, and Mexico have demonstrated three ways to nationalize oil...not a bad idea! Take a look at the website for the Partnership for Sustainable Communities...lots of exciting examples there.
But don't give up on arguing while you're getting interested in competing. Listen to Chris Hedges, Richard Wolff, Arundhati Roy, Vandana Shiva, Noam Chomsky...all excellent arguers and most of them activists, too. You can argue and compete at the same time! And don't forget to read Chalmers Johnson. You see, the US empire really is collapsing and the day will come, hopefully soon, when people all around the world will just stop listening to our corrupt, self-interested leaders.
We can help build a world based on models for community, economy, and ecology that draw their energy from principles and values. We need to argue strenuously against those who say, "Forget it, there is no alternative!" We need to compete effectively against those who have forgotten why they are here on Earth. And we need to never give up.
It has been pointed out many times that a steady state future is inevitable, and that we may still have time to determine what it will look like. It could be a planet with no people on it or a savage and violent place where a few people struggle for what is left of industrial civilization. Or it could be something much more humane and egalitarian, based on justice, shared effort, and the rights of every person to everything that is essential to life.
On Saturday, October 18, 2014 5:31:09 AM UTC-7, Biz Modl wrote:no one needs a federal 'policy' to give people options:
http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/61799-permaculture-fishponds
http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/63401-community-gardens
what we see here is a tradeoff of knowledge for energy. modern ag 'dumbs down' the growing process at a higher energy cost. the manufacturing paradigm lower intelligence and raises energy inputs.
this production system is consistent with the harris model decision matrix - people get a basic needs satisfied at a lower cost J
don’t argue - compete!
have fun, biz
From: biz modl [ mailto:biz...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 7:46 AM
To: 'steady...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: FW: Brian Czech responds to Paul Krugman in the Huffington Post
give people options:
http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/73750-a-canadian-urban-garden
this is an example of a redesigned production system…
have fun, biz
From: biz modl [mailto:...@gmail.com ]
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 2:02 PM
To: 'steady...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: Brian Czech responds to Paul Krugman in the Huffington Post
from a harris model point of view, arguing about growth or limits isn't really an issue. harris says that people in all cultures make decisions by choosing options that meet their basic needs with least effort (he defines basic needs in terms of food (sustenance), sex and love (all types of 'belonging')).
if you want a steady state culture, you need zero growth production and population systems that meet member's basic needs with minimal effort that are as good or better than the current systems. this is a matter of design. there is nothing in the current system that stops a group of people (who believe in no growth) from developing a counter culture that is steady state. but you can't get there if you spend all your intellectual capital and effort arguing with people who have overriding vested interests in the current system.
don’t argue - compete! give people good options and they will take them J
have fun, biz
From: steady...@googlegroups.com [ mailto:ste...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of da...@growthbusters.org
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 1:27 PM
To: steady...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Brian Czech responds to Paul Krugman in the Huffington Post
Great request, Rentz. Glad CASSE has waded into this.
Growth Bias Busted has devoted the entire week to this topic. If any of you are looking for some good background to inform your comments on HuffPost, you may enjoy reviewing the debate:
MONDAY: Paul Krugman Digging Way to China
http://www.growthbiasbusted.org/wall-of-shame/entry/paul-krugman-digging-way-to-china
TUESDAY: Heinberg: The Limits of Hubris
http://www.growthbiasbusted.org/wall-of-fame/entry/heinberg-the-limits-of-hubris
WEDNESDAY: Why So Hard to Question Growth?
http://www.growthbiasbusted.org/wall-of-fame/entry/why-so-hard-to-question-growth
THURSDAY: Brian Czechs Krugman on Limits to Growth
http://www.growthbiasbusted.org/wall-of-fame/entry/brian-czechs-krugman-on-limits-to-growth
Dave Gardner
Producer of the Documentary,
GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth
How do we become a sustainable civilization?
Check out our new initiative: Growth Bias Busted
Follow the Film / Join the movement at
www.facebook.com/growthbusters
Please consider the environment before printing this email.
On Oct 17, 2014, at 10:03 AM, Rentz Hilyer <rentz...@gmail.com> wrote:
You've probably seen Brian Czech's response to Paul Krugman's recent argument against the idea of limits to growth. You're a prolific group. I encourage everyone to weigh in on this dialog. It's a rare opportunity to get into the mix with Paul Krugman. We want the Huffington Post to start seeing this topic as newsworthy and of interest to many. We also are hoping for just enough traffic that this column makes it back to Krugman, who could one day become an ally, or at least stop his perpetual growth pontificating.
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