Google Groups alternative

[Alex Cabal]

In the past, I've floated the idea that we should be thinking of moving
off Google Groups to some other solution, if only because it's only a
matter of time before Google kills it like they do most things.

This post today is of the same opinion:
https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/

Though I don't share the author's view that the end of Groups is
dangerously near, I do agree with the rest of the post, and I'd like to
start thinking of options to move the SE list off of Google Groups in
the medium-term.

I wanted to see if anyone on the list has ideas for alternatives.

I think any alternative must be self-hosted, to avoid us having this
same problem again 5 years down the line.

The post points out everyone's moving to Discourse. Maybe that's a fine
option, I don't know.

These would be the basic requirements:

- Self hosted

- Email-based workflow an option. I personally do all SE stuff through
Thunderbird and I think being able to send an email to a list is much
more accessible to someone than having to create an account on yet
another forum before doing a basic one-off like submitting a typo.

As far as I know Discourse is more like a classic internet forum, and
not a mailing list. I don't know if there's an option to interact with
it as if it were a mailing list.

Maybe a classic mailing list software like GNU Mailman would be a better
fit.

Thoughts?

[Vince]

A traditional/classic/old time mailing list would be great with me. I do everything via email, also, and would prefer to keep it that way.

[Paul Bryan]

I think Discourse is a great option. Many open source projects have adopted it, and users who use email in their workflow can use it in "mailing list" mode.

[David]

We already make heavy use of Github — I have to think the Discussions feature would be worth considering, at least.

It should give everything Groups does, with some nice added features. It might inhibit drive-by typo reports. But maybe there are other ways of managing that? Obviously this is not self-hosted. But then, the whole corpus infrastructure lives on Github, so perhaps this is still worth a thought.

For self-hosted, given the expertise I've seen in this company, then PHP List is probably a strong option....

FWIW - 

David / Fife, UK

On Wednesday, 8 March 2023 at 17:00:35 UTC Alex Cabal wrote:

In the past, I've floated the idea that we should be thinking of moving
off Google Groups to some other solution, if only because it's only a
matter of time before Google kills it like they do most things.

This post today is of the same opinion:
https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/

. . .

I wanted to see if anyone on the list has ideas for alternatives.

. . .

[David]

Sorry, forgot to include a link with that last post: https://github.com/features/discussions

[Vince]

There’s only a single bullet on Discourse's features page about “mailing list” mode, but this post tells a little bit more about it. It’s old, but presumably everything still works that way if not better.

This post, which is current (late last year), talks about configuring the email for self-hosted servers.

[Matt Chan]

Given the size of the group now I think an email list is not very sustainable, the GitHub-related option is worth exploring I think. In the past GH used Gitter for their real time discussion platform. Recently it's migrated to Matrix: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matrix

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com.

[Vince]

The long (medium?)-term goal is to self-host our own git server as well (that’s documented somewhere, but I can’t find where at the moment), so using GitHub for this is probably not a desired option.

[Alex Cabal]

Right, self-hosting Git is a very very long term goal. Unlike Google
Groups I don't think Github is going anywhere any time soon, so
migrating off it to self-hosted is merely nice-to-have and not a priority.

On 3/8/23 11:39 AM, Vince wrote:
> The long (medium?)-term goal is to self-host our own git server as well
> (that’s documented somewhere, but I can’t find where at the moment), so
> using GitHub for this is probably not a desired option.
>
>
>> On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:31 AM, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We already make heavy use of Github — I have to think the Discussions
>> feature would be worth considering, at least.
>>
>> It should give everything Groups does, with some nice added features.
>> It might inhibit drive-by typo reports. But maybe there are other ways

>> of managing that? Obviously *this is not self-hosted*. But then, the

>> whole corpus infrastructure lives on Github, so perhaps this is still
>> worth a thought.
>>

>> For *self-hosted,* given the expertise I've seen in this company, then
>> PHP List <https://www.phplist.org/> is probably a strong option....

>>
>> FWIW -
>>
>> David / Fife, UK
>>
>> On Wednesday, 8 March 2023 at 17:00:35 UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
>>
>> In the past, I've floated the idea that we should be thinking of
>> moving
>> off Google Groups to some other solution, if only because it's only a
>> matter of time before Google kills it like they do most things.
>>
>> This post today is of the same opinion:
>> https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/
>> <https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/>
>> . . .
>>
>> I wanted to see if anyone on the list has ideas for alternatives.
>> . . .
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Matt Chan]

Alex, would you consider something like Matrix/Gitter as "self-hosting"? It would be less like an email list but more like Slack/Discord, if you are familiar with that. You can ostensibly group discussion/chats by topic/projects that way. Not sure if that is on the radar for what's desired, I can see pros and cons.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/3d7344ae-02d2-347f-6c39-454aa3a06ea6%40standardebooks.org.

[Alex Cabal]

Self hosting is we run the software on our own server. If we involve a
third-party server at any point then it's not self hosting.

On 3/8/23 11:51 AM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Alex, would you consider something like Matrix/Gitter as "self-hosting"?
> It would be less like an email list but more like Slack/Discord, if you
> are familiar with that. You can ostensibly group discussion/chats by
> topic/projects that way. Not sure if that is on the radar for what's
> desired, I can see pros and cons.
>
> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:44 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Right, self-hosting Git is a very very long term goal. Unlike Google
> Groups I don't think Github is going anywhere any time soon, so
> migrating off it to self-hosted is merely nice-to-have and not a
> priority.
>
> On 3/8/23 11:39 AM, Vince wrote:
> > The long (medium?)-term goal is to self-host our own git server
> as well
> > (that’s documented somewhere, but I can’t find where at the
> moment), so
> > using GitHub for this is probably not a desired option.
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:31 AM, David <djre...@gmail.com

> <mailto:djre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> We already make heavy use of Github — I have to think the
> Discussions
> >> feature would be worth considering, at least.
> >>
> >> It should give everything Groups does, with some nice added
> features.
> >> It might inhibit drive-by typo reports. But maybe there are
> other ways
> >> of managing that? Obviously *this is not self-hosted*. But then,
> the
> >> whole corpus infrastructure lives on Github, so perhaps this is
> still
> >> worth a thought.
> >>
> >> For *self-hosted,* given the expertise I've seen in this
> company, then

> >> PHP List <https://www.phplist.org/ <https://www.phplist.org/>>

> is probably a strong option....
> >>
> >> FWIW -
> >>
> >> David / Fife, UK
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, 8 March 2023 at 17:00:35 UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
> >>
> >>     In the past, I've floated the idea that we should be thinking of
> >>     moving
> >>     off Google Groups to some other solution, if only because
> it's only a
> >>     matter of time before Google kills it like they do most things.
> >>
> >>     This post today is of the same opinion:
> >> https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/
> <https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/>
> >>     <https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/
> <https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/>>
> >>     . . .
> >>
> >>     I wanted to see if anyone on the list has ideas for
> alternatives.
> >>     . . .
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/3d7344ae-02d2-347f-6c39-454aa3a06ea6%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/3d7344ae-02d2-347f-6c39-454aa3a06ea6%40standardebooks.org>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTeYEn99-V6vT1xx%3DFB8ZwnQS%3DtehOTDq47DCfgVCEf8DQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTeYEn99-V6vT1xx%3DFB8ZwnQS%3DtehOTDq47DCfgVCEf8DQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[David]

(And scratch my "PHP List" option, above. It's not appropriate at all...sorry. My bad.)

Meanwhile, I've had the time to read the post that Alex linked at the top of this thread, and some good options are considered there. Interesting to note the lukewarm (or more like cool) reception given to Github Discussions, although I still think this is an excellent medium-term (next 5 years, say) option for SE (from what I can see from my participation and interaction).

But it also noted an option that also merits a lingering look: Fossil Forums. Some are probably already familiar with Fossil — I use a personal self-hosted instance daily for simple document (Markdown) management. It speaks with Git; it is a complete Git alternative, in fact. But the simple setup includes a Forum feature. 

There is much more to say about Fossil, but those interested will find all they could want at the link provided above. I doubt that it will suit ... but it's worth a moment of reflection. :)

David / Fife, UK

[Matt Chan]

In that case, Matrix does allow for hosting the service directly on a home server. One way is via Element: https://element.io/solutions/on-premise-collaboration

Using the built-in discussion feature on GH as David mentioned is not self-hosted, but perhaps that's okay because we are using GH so heavily already? For the next several years anyway?

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4354ac29-52df-1f4c-a808-14679d5de4af%40standardebooks.org.

[Alex Cabal]

As was mentioned earlier I don't want to move to Github because we want
to move off Github eventually. If the unlikely worst case happens and
Google Groups shuts down with a week of warning, we can certainly
migrate to GH as a temporary alternative while we sort things out. But
if we're migrating at our own pace, we want to self host.

On 3/8/23 12:56 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> In that case, Matrix does allow for hosting the service directly on a
> home server. One way is via Element:
> https://element.io/solutions/on-premise-collaboration
> <https://element.io/solutions/on-premise-collaboration>
>
> Using the built-in discussion feature on GH as David mentioned is not
> self-hosted, but perhaps that's okay because we are using GH so heavily
> already? For the next several years anyway?
>
> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:07 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Self hosting is we run the software on our own server. If we involve a
> third-party server at any point then it's not self hosting.
>
> On 3/8/23 11:51 AM, Matt Chan wrote:
> > Alex, would you consider something like Matrix/Gitter as
> "self-hosting"?
> > It would be less like an email list but more like Slack/Discord,
> if you
> > are familiar with that. You can ostensibly group discussion/chats by
> > topic/projects that way. Not sure if that is on the radar for what's
> > desired, I can see pros and cons.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:44 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>

> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org

> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Right, self-hosting Git is a very very long term goal. Unlike
> Google
> >     Groups I don't think Github is going anywhere any time soon, so
> >     migrating off it to self-hosted is merely nice-to-have and not a
> >     priority.
> >
> >     On 3/8/23 11:39 AM, Vince wrote:
> >      > The long (medium?)-term goal is to self-host our own git
> server
> >     as well
> >      > (that’s documented somewhere, but I can’t find where at the
> >     moment), so
> >      > using GitHub for this is probably not a desired option.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >> On Mar 8, 2023, at 11:31 AM, David <djre...@gmail.com
> <mailto:djre...@gmail.com>

> >     <mailto:djre...@gmail.com <mailto:djre...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >      >>
> >      >> We already make heavy use of Github — I have to think the
> >     Discussions
> >      >> feature would be worth considering, at least.
> >      >>
> >      >> It should give everything Groups does, with some nice added
> >     features.
> >      >> It might inhibit drive-by typo reports. But maybe there are
> >     other ways
> >      >> of managing that? Obviously *this is not self-hosted*.
> But then,
> >     the
> >      >> whole corpus infrastructure lives on Github, so perhaps
> this is
> >     still
> >      >> worth a thought.
> >      >>
> >      >> For *self-hosted,* given the expertise I've seen in this
> >     company, then
> >      >> PHP List <https://www.phplist.org/

> <https://www.phplist.org/> <https://www.phplist.org/

> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>
> >      > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>>.

> >      > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >      >
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/15502F10-C983-433D-90FE-C603D2DFA0FF%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

> >
> >     --
> >     You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> >     Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> >     To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >     send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> >     <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>.

> >     To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/3d7344ae-02d2-347f-6c39-454aa3a06ea6%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/3d7344ae-02d2-347f-6c39-454aa3a06ea6%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/3d7344ae-02d2-347f-6c39-454aa3a06ea6%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/3d7344ae-02d2-347f-6c39-454aa3a06ea6%40standardebooks.org>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTeYEn99-V6vT1xx%3DFB8ZwnQS%3DtehOTDq47DCfgVCEf8DQ%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTeYEn99-V6vT1xx%3DFB8ZwnQS%3DtehOTDq47DCfgVCEf8DQ%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTeYEn99-V6vT1xx%3DFB8ZwnQS%3DtehOTDq47DCfgVCEf8DQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTeYEn99-V6vT1xx%3DFB8ZwnQS%3DtehOTDq47DCfgVCEf8DQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,

> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4354ac29-52df-1f4c-a808-14679d5de4af%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4354ac29-52df-1f4c-a808-14679d5de4af%40standardebooks.org>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTcqi93J_KF2Kyi1vs2LyEZiGrffCPsDYm5AgsaDm-XjXg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTcqi93J_KF2Kyi1vs2LyEZiGrffCPsDYm5AgsaDm-XjXg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Matt Chan]

Understood. Since it is preferable to stick with the email medium, this tool seems to have been compared favorably to Mailman https://github.com/knadh/listmonk or https://listmonk.app/

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/31fd6d6b-3ba1-db2d-e92b-8952cdc51fe2%40standardebooks.org.

[Anthony J. Bentley]

I’m certainly a fan of self-hosting the mailing list.

Can Google Groups export raw emails? I haven’t found a way to do that, at least on the subscriber side. A new archive might have yo be initially populated from someone’s inbox.

Mailman seems like a logical choice for an archive. But does it have a web interface for submitting new posts? It’s hard to gauge how many people use the Google Groups interface to post but it could be a sizeable number.

Discourse is not a platform I particularly like, but it might work well. I’ve also seen comparable communities use Flarum, which looks pretty similar (visually at least), though my impression is its email support is minimal.

Re GitHub, using it to host Git repositories makes sense because they are trivial to export, and GitHub’s merge requests/issues are hard to avoid and are at least theoretically exportable, but I agree we should generally avoid further entrenchment in that ecosystem.

Matrix is quite cool in its own way, but there is a huge difference between a forum-style community and a realtime chat community. The latter basically requires 24/7 moderation and IMO that’s just not workable here. Also, like any realtime chat, it negatively affects searchability.

[David]

In addition to the requirements Alex set out, is there a place for public archives (searchable) to be added?

I understand the attraction to managing this via email. I typically read much the traffic here (i.e., in the Google Groups interface), and use email for the few items/threads I get personally involved in. And the record serves as a valuable "knowledge base" too, of course.

It would appear that the Mailman suite with archives does tick the boxes....

D.

[Paul Bryan]

Maybe add that whatever is chosen, can import the messages from the previous Google Groups archive?

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/527f52f1-a643-47a6-bdf3-14f4e05cb826n%40googlegroups.com.

[David at Standard Ebooks]

I find it too easy to miss or lose emails, which in my experience often end up in spam. And following the thread of a discussion, or searching for a previous topic is just about impossible with email. I OFTEN go to the Google Groups website to track things down. It's terrible, but at least the info is usually findable.

So I don't like the idea of an email-only system, but GitHub Discussions look promising. And given that Microsoft has a big stake in GitHub, they're not going away in a hurry. And Microsoft for all their faults are very good at keeping legacy systems and software running!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Alex Cabal]

Well, Google has a big stake in Google Groups...

>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Paul Bryan]

Someone who wants to interact with the community, with no coding experience, will have to register with GitHub, navigate to the repo, and navigate to discussions. Seems like friction to me. I don't know SE's demographic, but I have doubts that this would maintain or increase community involvement.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark.

[David at Standard Ebooks]

As it did in Google Reader, Google+, and the list goes on!

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e122a8f9-cd95-5f9b-7839-e1cd13b1bff5%40standardebooks.org.

[Alex Cabal]

We're not going to Github. This is a call to discuss self hosted
solutions, that's the entire point of the discussion.

>>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d1b45b2071797e59a4cc3d8a8e34ac81144300ca.camel%40anode.ca <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d1b45b2071797e59a4cc3d8a8e34ac81144300ca.camel%40anode.ca?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Matt Chan]

Alex: Do you have any reservations about going the Mailman route? You have suggested that in the beginning and it does seem to fit your use case best? Plus I might be inferring that you already have some experience using the tool compared to other similar (maybe newer) offerings?

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/844ee1f3-505a-8e27-4135-97da550c82b6%40standardebooks.org.

[Vince]

Alex, here are a couple of links from people actually using Discourse via mail; it looks like at least the first one is from someone coming from mailman (and is recent, i.e. late last year).

https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/discourse-and-mailing-list-mode/6054

https://discuss.python.org/t/if-mailing-list-mode-were-better/3951

The second one is almost three years old, and talks about threading being poor in mailing list mode, but some more recent things I’ve seen seem to indicate that it threads pretty well; one was a problem from a year or so ago where an update broke the message-id in the emails, and they fixed it the day it was reported. The actual format of the email might be more of an issue, but it’s again three years old, so don’t know if they still look like that.

[Alex Cabal]

I haven't used much of anything on the admin end. We're just spitballing
some ideas here to further the discussion. Any movement on the matter is
going to happen on the 6-month scale at the minimum.

> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>, wrote:
> >>> Given the size of the group now I think an email list is not very
> >>> sustainable, the GitHub-related option is worth exploring I
> think. In
> >>> the past GH used Gitter for their real time discussion platform.
> >>> Recently it's migrated to Matrix:
> >>> https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matrix
> <https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matrix>
> >>> <https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matrix
> <https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matrix>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:32 PM David <djre...@gmail.com
> <mailto:djre...@gmail.com>

> >>> <mailto:djre...@gmail.com <mailto:djre...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >>>> Sorry, forgot to include a link with that last post:
> >>>> https://github.com/features/discussions
> <https://github.com/features/discussions>
> >>>> <https://github.com/features/discussions
> <https://github.com/features/discussions>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wednesday, 8 March 2023 at 17:31:46 UTC David wrote:
> >>>>> We already make heavy use of Github — I have to think the
> >>>>> Discussions feature would be worth considering, at least.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
> Google
> >>>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >>>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>>>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/2438c53b-ac46-43fe-8681-529ea5b5d4c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> >>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTc0s%3DNQ7xcbKWzS938mL7xyNAHM%3DuE%2BGMJCm5aW12fiTg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
> it, send
> >> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
> >>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6cc9af03-a0fd-45a2-945e-82578b2b585f%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d1b45b2071797e59a4cc3d8a8e34ac81144300ca.camel%40anode.ca <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d1b45b2071797e59a4cc3d8a8e34ac81144300ca.camel%40anode.ca> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d1b45b2071797e59a4cc3d8a8e34ac81144300ca.camel%40anode.ca?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d1b45b2071797e59a4cc3d8a8e34ac81144300ca.camel%40anode.ca?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/844ee1f3-505a-8e27-4135-97da550c82b6%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/844ee1f3-505a-8e27-4135-97da550c82b6%40standardebooks.org>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTeGBQSpEo3Zob3bEW1kJ86qGBsqEd-35s7uCaGirVdWWA%40mail.gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAB6ohTeGBQSpEo3Zob3bEW1kJ86qGBsqEd-35s7uCaGirVdWWA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Marshall Clow]

On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:21 PM, David at Standard Ebooks <standar...@thegriggs.org> wrote:

I find it too easy to miss or lose emails, which in my experience often end up in spam. And following the thread of a discussion, or searching for a previous topic is just about impossible with email. I OFTEN go to the Google Groups website to track things down. It's terrible, but at least the info is usually findable.

Interesting.

I search for things in my email archives all the time.

And find them, even ;-)

— Marshall

P.S that sounds like a “mail client” problem.

P.P.S.  The advantage of an email solution is that people have a choice of clients.

[Bob R. Kenyon]

I would have a separate email address specifically for typo and other concerns to be addressed to SE in general. The email list being discussed here could be more for contributors who are producing ebooks.

I haven’t produced an ebook in a while, but I still read a lot of these emails going by. (I’m very good at email and don’t mind this system, frankly.)

Bob

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d1b45b2071797e59a4cc3d8a8e34ac81144300ca.camel%40anode.ca.

[Matt Chan]

Spitballing: Obviously different folks have different preferences (e.g. I do not prefer email but clearly many here do), so I think it's probably best to pick a platform, in addition to Alex's requirements, that is preferable to the most active within the organization, that is, the editors and regular reviewers. Volunteering producers would come and go as time goes by.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/F88C5DA3-71A4-4150-92A6-F11B3F499CFA%40bobrk.com.

[Anthony J. Bentley]

I took a closer look at Mailman today. My impression of it was clearly out out of date. I and presumably many others typically encounter Mailman through its Pipermail web archive interface. But it turns out that Pipermail is limited to Mailman 2, while Mailman 3 introduced a brand new web frontend called HyperKitty (viewable live at https://lists.fedoraproject.org).

Besides the usual web archive, HyperKitty presents an interface that is (I daresay) Google Groups–like. Users can sign in with OAuth (I think? Supports GitHub, GitLab, Google, OpenID, etc.) and submit new threads or replies through the browser. Users not logged in can click the same buttons to get a mailto link with Subject and In-Reply-To prepopulated.

Maybe this updated Mailman interface is old news, but I’m blown away—I’d literally never seen or heard of it before. It certainly eases my concern about usability for former Google Groups users.

[François Grandjean]

I don’t have any specific solution to offer but I believe that having a way to archive old messages and easily search through them is a must. Whenever I encounter a problem in a production, I prefer to see how a similar one may have been resolved in the past before asking.

[Jim Cheetham]

Self-hosting *email* itself is technically easy, but in practice the fact that most email destinations are now concentrated into two or three major providers (Google, Microsoft, and large domain registrars) means that *deliverability* can be difficult to manage for everyone. So using email alone as a communications path isn't necessarily good enough for a self-hosted service.

However, using an external service for simple sending and receiving is pretty much globally supported, so you can still choose to have your own email service self-hosted; just using someone like Google or AWS to do the actual sending.

What we have here with Google Groups is a messaging system with two main interfaces - email and web. That's the feature that helps it appeal to two sets of people - the ones who already have a mature email setup and want to use their own tools to talk to everyone, and the ones who are happier going to "a website" on an ad-hoc basis.

When you go looking at alternative platforms for features, remember that many of them are promoting "use our service" as the main option, because that's where their revenue comes from, but if the underlying code is Free Software or Open Source you can run your own self-hosted copy. Discourse is like this, and so is Matrix.

I hadn't seen Mailman's HyperKitty frontend before; I suspect it will make a very good web-based frontend, and the federated login options are nice; at the end of the day, all Mailman wants to know is an email address, and getting that via someone else's independent service is a great option.

However, the big downside to all this is that if you are self-hosting *anything*, you need to make sure you have active support to keep things running in good condition. There's nothing worse than setting up something complex, then relying on it for so long that you forget the details, and then it breaks ...

-jim

[Daniel Kessler]

You could consider Sourcehut Lists which is self-hostable, integrates very nicely with email-based workflows, doesn't require accounts, and has a UI that's nicer than GNU Mailman.

Example link: https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-discuss

One thing I find annoying about this is the line wrapping behavior. Mail clients that don't do wrapping correctly will render badly, see [1] for an example. You have to trust users to adhere to the "mailing list etiquette" (https://man.sr.ht/lists.sr.ht/etiquette.md). Though line wrapping isn't super consistent even here on Google Groups, so it might not be a huge deal.

[1] https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-discuss/%3C61A9D4A1-C66D-4D1C-83A3-E18D61EE1D12%40esolia.co.jp%3E#%3C6FBA0DBD-3124-416...@rauhl.com%3E

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 9:00:35 AM UTC-8 Alex Cabal wrote:

In the past, I've floated the idea that we should be thinking of moving
off Google Groups to some other solution, if only because it's only a
matter of time before Google kills it like they do most things.

This post today is of the same opinion:
https://ahelwer.ca/post/2023-03-08-google-groups/

Though I don't share the author's view that the end of Groups is
dangerously near, I do agree with the rest of the post, and I'd like to
start thinking of options to move the SE list off of Google Groups in
the medium-term.

I wanted to see if anyone on the list has ideas for alternatives.

I think any alternative must be self-hosted, to avoid us having this
same problem again 5 years down the line.

The post points out everyone's moving to Discourse. Maybe that's a fine
option, I don't know.

These would be the basic requirements:

- Self hosted

- Email-based workflow an option. I personally do all SE stuff through
Thunderbird and I think being able to send an email to a list is much
more accessible to someone than having to create an account on yet
another forum before doing a basic one-off like submitting a typo.

As far as I know Discourse is more like a classic internet forum, and
not a mailing list. I don't know if there's an option to interact with
it as if it were a mailing list.

Maybe a classic mailing list software like GNU Mailman would be a better
fit.

Thoughts?

[Alex Cabal]

Hyperkitty looks quite good. That may be the direction to go in, if and
when we actually start thinking of moving off Google Groups.

On 3/9/23 2:11 AM, 'Anthony J. Bentley' via Standard Ebooks wrote:
> I took a closer look at Mailman today. My impression of it was clearly
> out out of date. I and presumably many others typically encounter
> Mailman through its Pipermail web archive interface. But it turns out
> that Pipermail is limited to Mailman 2, while Mailman 3 introduced a
> brand new web frontend called HyperKitty (viewable live at

> https://lists.fedoraproject.org <https://lists.fedoraproject.org>).

>
> Besides the usual web archive, HyperKitty presents an interface that is
> (I daresay) Google Groups–like. Users can sign in with OAuth (I think?
> Supports GitHub, GitLab, Google, OpenID, etc.) and submit new threads or
> replies through the browser. Users not logged in can click the same
> buttons to get a mailto link with Subject and In-Reply-To prepopulated.
>
> Maybe this updated Mailman interface is old news, but I’m blown away—I’d
> literally never seen or heard of it before. It certainly eases my
> concern about usability for former Google Groups users.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/DF54EDB3-484A-4C80-B998-74C73B1B5A9C%40roadrunner.page <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/DF54EDB3-484A-4C80-B998-74C73B1B5A9C%40roadrunner.page?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Asher Bohmer]

Above, it was mentioned that there are two primary ways to access this - web interface and email inbox. I would add a third to that: summary report emails. I don't want all the emails coming through my inbox, but I like to be able to read summaries of all the messages sent in the last period of time. If Hyperkitty does that, that'd be great.

I'd also note about the web interface: it is my preferred way of accessing the list when I'm on my work machine, because I don't generally like to access personal emails from that computer. There are use cases for the web interface even when a user is already accessing it by email as well.

[David]

Like Asher, I use a combination of daily digest, web interface and (occasionally) plain email to interact with the SE Google Group.

Fortunately, the Mailman 3 suite, of which Hyperkitty is a part, includes the option of a mail digest for subscribers. So far, it does look like it ticks all the boxes.

David / Fife, UK

[Christopher Hapka]

Saw this linked from the spam discussion today and wanted to add this. It's a page of advice for managers of open source projects and it discusses exactly this issue, the need for a discussion tool that can be accessed either by email or web, spam filtering, archiving, etc.:

https://producingoss.com/en/message-forums.html#message-forum-software

The tl;dr, their list is:

Discourse

Sympa (which I haven't seen mentioned here yet)

Mailman 3

Google Groups (which they don't recommend but say might be useful for getting started)