[First Project] The Fifth Queen by Ford Madox Ford

Anne Dattilo

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Mar 1, 2023, 5:24:00 PM3/1/23

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Hi,

I would like to contribute with my first project as The Fifth Queen by Ford Madox Ford. It looks like it has previously been started and abandoned a while back-- please let me know if it's still in production.

PG book: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/30188

Scan: https://archive.org/details/fifthqueenandho00fordgoog/page/n94/mode/2up

Thanks!

Alex Cabal

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Mar 2, 2023, 2:40:35 AM3/2/23

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Sure, that one would be a good start.

"and how she came to court" will be the subtitle, which will only appear
in the metadata here. Since this is part of a series, it will also have
series metadata. See the manual for details.

You can remove the page numbers in one go with a regex.

The hardest part of this ebook will be converting to American-style
quotation with `se british2american`. The script makes a lot of mistakes
and very careful proofreading will be required to ensure dialog is
quoted correctly and elided words have correctly-curled quotes. Before
proofing use this regex to highlight potential problem quotes: \s‘[a-z]

Make sure to read the Standard Ebooks Manual of Style before starting,
as you won't know what to fix if you haven't read the standards. In
particular, please closely review the semantics, high level patterns,
and typography sections:

https://standardebooks.org/manual

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography

The step by step guide will take you from start to finish:

https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step

Please email often if you have any questions at all. Our standards are
well-established so there is probably already a standard for formatting
whatever problem you've encountered.

When you're ready, email back with a link to your Github repository so
that I can mark you as having started.

Have fun! :)

> <https://archive.org/details/fifthqueenandho00fordgoog/page/n94/mode/2up>
>
> Thanks!
>
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Anne Dattilo

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Mar 2, 2023, 1:18:32 PM3/2/23

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Here's the repo: https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen

Thanks!

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Alex Cabal

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Mar 2, 2023, 4:46:07 PM3/2/23

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Robin, can you manage this with Bruce reviewing?

On 3/2/23 12:18 PM, Anne Dattilo wrote:
> Here's the repo:
> https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen
> <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen>
>
> Thanks!
>
> On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 11:40 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Sure, that one would be a good start.
>
> "and how she came to court" will be the subtitle, which will only
> appear
> in the metadata here. Since this is part of a series, it will also have
> series metadata. See the manual for details.
>
> You can remove the page numbers in one go with a regex.
>
> The hardest part of this ebook will be converting to American-style
> quotation with `se british2american`. The script makes a lot of
> mistakes
> and very careful proofreading will be required to ensure dialog is
> quoted correctly and elided words have correctly-curled quotes. Before
> proofing use this regex to highlight potential problem quotes: \s‘[a-z]
>
> Make sure to read the Standard Ebooks Manual of Style before starting,
> as you won't know what to fix if you haven't read the standards. In
> particular, please closely review the semantics, high level patterns,
> and typography sections:
>
> https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual>
>

> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>
>
> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns>
>
> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>
>
> The step by step guide will take you from start to finish:
>

> https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step>

> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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Robin Whittleton

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Mar 2, 2023, 5:00:38 PM3/2/23

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Yep, happy to.

> On 2 Mar 2023, at 22:46, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Robin, can you manage this with Bruce reviewing?

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B Keith

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Mar 2, 2023, 7:10:57 PM3/2/23

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I can do that

Bruce

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Anne Dattilo

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Mar 14, 2023, 2:17:38 AM3/14/23

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I am modernizing hyphenation and spelling and am questioning some of replacements. The novel is set at King Henry VIII's court and how the dialog mimics Tudor English is a huge stylistic point. In particular, I question replacing `shew' with `show' (ie page 57):

Screenshot 2023-03-13 at 10.47.00 PM.png

Does changing the spelling change the intent of the author? If `shew' and `show' are pronounced the same (as they are in British English, I believe?), does that change from what the author intended?

I think other books (like Paradise Lost) have updated the spelling but wanted to make sure it was still appropriate here. Keeping the archaic spelling in dialog and replacing it otherwise would maybe be a fair move. Let me know what you think.

David

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Mar 14, 2023, 5:15:12 AM3/14/23

to Standard Ebooks

Just to add a bit of data to that question: it seems there are 8 instances of `shew*` in this title (CTRL-F...): four are in dialogue, and four not.

Further, a code search of the SE corpus finds 73 "files" with `shew*`, of which many (but not all) are in poetry. So there is plenty of precedent for retaining `shew*` where appropriate.

But as to whether that's appropriate *here*, I'll be interested to hear from the editorial team. ;-)

David / Fife, UK

Robin Whittleton

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Mar 14, 2023, 7:35:38 AM3/14/23

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Personally, I wouldn’t hesitate to modernise that. The flavour of the text comes out in the wording and phrasing, not in soundalike spelling changes.

-Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/f1d1deb7-31e8-479f-91c4-2e50b29e8abbn%40googlegroups.com.

Alex Cabal

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Mar 14, 2023, 3:49:32 PM3/14/23

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Yes, but this book was written at the turn of the century when that
spelling was already archaic, so it has a purposefully old style.
Therefore I think we can leave them all in this case. The Wikipedia
article also makes a big point of the prose style.

On 3/14/23 6:35 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> Personally, I wouldn’t hesitate to modernise that. The flavour of the
> text comes out in the wording and phrasing, not in soundalike spelling
> changes.
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 14 Mar 2023, at 10:15, David <djre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just to add a bit of data to that question: it seems there are 8
>> instances of `shew*`in this title

>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/30188/pg30188.txt> (CTRL-F...):

>> four are in dialogue, and four not.
>>
>> Further, a code search of the SE corpus finds73 "files" with `shew*`

>> <https://github.com/search?q=org%3Astandardebooks+%2Fshew%2F+path%3Asrc%2Fepub%2Ftext%2F*.xhtml&type=code>, of which many (but not all) are in poetry. So there is plenty of precedent for retaining `shew*` where appropriate.

>>
>> But as to whether that's appropriate *here*, I'll be interested to
>> hear from the editorial team. ;-)
>>
>> David / Fife, UK
>>
>> On Tuesday, 14 March 2023 at 06:17:38 UTC anne.d...@gmail.com

>> <http://gmail.com/>wrote:

>>
>> I am modernizing hyphenation and spelling and am questioning some
>> of replacements. The novel is set at King Henry VIII's court and
>> how the dialog mimics Tudor English is a huge stylistic point. In
>> particular, I question replacing `shew' with `show' (ie page 57):
>>

>> Screenshot 2023-03-13 at 10.47.00 PM.png
>> Does changing the spelling change the intent of the author? If
>> `shew' and `show' are pronounced the same (as they are in British

>> English, I believe?), does/that/change from what the author intended?

>>
>> I think other books (like Paradise Lost) have updated the spelling
>> but wanted to make sure it was still appropriate here. Keeping the
>> archaic spelling in dialog and replacing it otherwise would maybe
>> be a fair move. Let me know what you think.
>> On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 4:10:57 PM UTC-8 BTK wrote:
>>
>> I can do that
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> > On Mar 2, 2023, at 2:46 PM, Alex Cabal
>> <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Robin, can you manage this with Bruce reviewing?
>> >
>> > On 3/2/23 12:18 PM, Anne Dattilo wrote:
>> >> Here's the

>> repo:https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen><https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen>>

>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual><https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual>>

>> >>https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>
>> >> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>>

>> >>https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns><https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns>>

>> >>https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>
>> >> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography
>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>>
>> >> The step by step guide will take you from start to finish:

>> >>https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step><https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step>>

>> >>https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer><https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c882bbd5-1b1c-4b7a-b34f-457464d8b42fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

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Anne Dattilo

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Mar 14, 2023, 7:38:39 PM3/14/23

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I was going to retain the other modernizations-- they are mainly hyphenations (to-night -> tonight, to-morrow-> tomorrow, small-pox -> smallpox, etc), but there are some other spelling changes (scolloped -> scalloped, ribands -> ribbons, lanthorn -> lantern, inflexion -> inflection). Should I leave them all?

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Alex Cabal

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Mar 14, 2023, 10:08:13 PM3/14/23

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I think given the unique prose style of this work yes, you can accept
the removal of hyphens in general but keep the archaic spellings. This
book is similar to The Worm Ouroborous in its use of archaic prose style
for flavor.

On 3/14/23 6:38 PM, Anne Dattilo wrote:
> I was going to retain the other modernizations-- they are mainly
> hyphenations (to-night -> tonight, to-morrow-> tomorrow, small-pox ->
> smallpox, etc), but there are some other spelling changes (scolloped ->
> scalloped, ribands -> ribbons, lanthorn -> lantern, inflexion ->
> inflection). Should I leave them all?
>
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:49 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Yes, but this book was written at the turn of the century when that
> spelling was already archaic, so it has a purposefully old style.
> Therefore I think we can leave them all in this case. The Wikipedia
> article also makes a big point of the prose style.
>
> On 3/14/23 6:35 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> > Personally, I wouldn’t hesitate to modernise that. The flavour of
> the
> > text comes out in the wording and phrasing, not in soundalike
> spelling
> > changes.
> >
> > -Robin
> >
> >> On 14 Mar 2023, at 10:15, David <djre...@gmail.com

> <mailto:djre...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Just to add a bit of data to that question: it seems there are 8
> >> instances of `shew*`in this title
> >> <https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/30188/pg30188.txt
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/30188/pg30188.txt>> (CTRL-F...):
> >> four are in dialogue, and four not.
> >>
> >> Further, a code search of the SE corpus finds73 "files" with
> `shew*`
> >>

> <https://github.com/search?q=org%3Astandardebooks+%2Fshew%2F+path%3Asrc%2Fepub%2Ftext%2F*.xhtml&type=code <https://github.com/search?q=org%3Astandardebooks+%2Fshew%2F+path%3Asrc%2Fepub%2Ftext%2F*.xhtml&type=code>>, of which many (but not all) are in poetry. So there is plenty of precedent for retaining `shew*` where appropriate.

> >>
> >> But as to whether that's appropriate *here*, I'll be interested to
> >> hear from the editorial team. ;-)
> >>
> >> David / Fife, UK
> >>
> >> On Tuesday, 14 March 2023 at 06:17:38 UTC anne.d...@gmail.com

> <mailto:anne.d...@gmail.com>
> >> <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/>>wrote:

> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Robin, can you manage this with Bruce reviewing?
> >> >
> >> > On 3/2/23 12:18 PM, Anne Dattilo wrote:
> >> >> Here's the
> >>
> repo:https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen
> <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen>
> <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen

> <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen>><https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen> <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen <https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen>>>

> >> >> Thanks!
> >> >> On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 11:40 PM Alex Cabal
> >> <al...@standardebooks.org

> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org><mailto:al...@standardebooks.org

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual>><https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual> <https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual>>>

> >> >>https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>
> >> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>>
> >> >> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>
> >> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>>>
> >>

> >>https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns>><https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns>>>

> >> >>https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>
> >> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>>
> >> >>
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>
> >> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>>>
> >> >> The step by step guide will take you from start to
> finish:
> >>

> <mailto:tostandardebook...@googlegroups.com>
> >> >> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
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Anne Dattilo

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Mar 17, 2023, 2:56:44 PM3/17/23

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I'd like to use this portrait from the Met as cover art: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436667. It's OA Public Domain and possibly depicts Catherine Howard, or someone in her court.

Robin Whittleton

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Mar 18, 2023, 5:13:04 AM3/18/23

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Looks good to me.

-Robin

On 17 Mar 2023, at 19:56, Anne Dattilo <anne.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd like to use this portrait from the Met as cover art: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436667. It's OA Public Domain and possibly depicts Catherine Howard, or someone in her court.

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Anne Dattilo

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Apr 27, 2023, 8:24:25 PM4/27/23

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I am almost done fixing things I caught during proofreading. The book sometimes uses italics when quoting someone in dialogue and sometimes does not. In both these cases, the person is quoting something spoken, not written (if that matters):

I've counted 6 times they are italicized and 7 times not. Is it correct to remove the italics in these cases?

Robin Whittleton

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Apr 28, 2023, 1:12:28 AM4/28/23

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Given that it’s inconsistent I’d say that it’s reasonable to remove the italics there. But do it in an Editorial commit so that it can be reverted later if necessary.

-Robin

On 28 Apr 2023, at 02:24, Anne Dattilo <anne.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am almost done fixing things I caught during proofreading. The book sometimes uses italics when quoting someone in dialogue and sometimes does not. In both these cases, the person is quoting something spoken, not written (if that matters):

<Screenshot 2023-04-27 at 5.18.28 PM.png>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/03a3ce8a-bb68-416d-84ec-98304e38c52an%40googlegroups.com.

<Screenshot 2023-04-27 at 5.18.28 PM.png>

Anne Dattilo

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May 11, 2023, 3:20:10 PM5/11/23

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Alright this is ready for review! https://github.com/aedattilo/ford-madox-ford_the-fifth-queen

Alex Cabal

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May 11, 2023, 5:22:13 PM5/11/23

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Bruce is up for this one but he's away, Robin do you have time to review
it too?

>>> <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436667>.

>>> <https://github.com/search?q=org%3Astandardebooks+%2Fshew%2F+path%3Asrc%2Fepub%2Ftext%2F*.xhtml&type=code <https://github.com/search?q=org%3Astandardebooks+%2Fshew%2F+path%3Asrc%2Fepub%2Ftext%2F*.xhtml&type=code> <https://github.com/search?q=org%3Astandardebooks+%2Fshew%2F+path%3Asrc%2Fepub%2Ftext%2F*.xhtml&type=code <https://github.com/search?q=org%3Astandardebooks+%2Fshew%2F+path%3Asrc%2Fepub%2Ftext%2F*.xhtml&type=code>>>, of which many (but not all) are in poetry. So there is plenty of precedent for retaining `shew*` where appropriate.

>>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual>>><https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual> <https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual> <https://standardebooks.org/manual <https://standardebooks.org/manual>>>>

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>>
>> <Screenshot 2023-04-27 at 5.18.28 PM.png>
>> <Screenshot 2023-04-27 at 5.17.05 PM.png>
>

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Robin Whittleton

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May 12, 2023, 2:52:58 AM5/12/23

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Yep, I can look at this over the weekend.

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Robin Whittleton

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May 13, 2023, 4:03:03 AM5/13/23

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OK, in general looks really good. I’ve left a handful of issues on the repo; could you also run typogrify again as it’s finding a few changes.

-Robin

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David

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May 13, 2023, 2:28:42 PM5/13/23

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Nice cover image, but it looks to me like a prime candidate for adjusting levels. I left a sample as a comment on the cover commit in Github.

FWIW! David / Fife, UK

Alex Cabal

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Jun 15, 2023, 1:30:47 AM6/15/23

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Hi Anne, have you had time to wrap this up?

Anne Dattilo

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Jun 15, 2023, 7:19:01 AM6/15/23

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Hi sorry, yes! All issues in the repo have been resolved and the new cover added (thank you David!).

Anne

> On Jun 15, 2023, at 1:30 AM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Anne, have you had time to wrap this up?

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Alex Cabal

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Jun 17, 2023, 1:07:31 PM6/17/23

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Robin is this wrapped up?

Robin Whittleton

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Jun 18, 2023, 3:43:44 AM6/18/23

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Sorry, yep, all issues were addressed and it’s ready for you.

-Robin

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Alex Cabal

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Jun 18, 2023, 11:41:00 AM6/18/23

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OK great work Anne! Everything looks good and I've gone ahead and
released it.

If you'd like to work on something else, the rest of the trilogy is on
the wanted list; or you can select something else of moderate
difficulty, or pitch something that's not on the wanted list too.

Thanks!

On 6/15/23 6:18 AM, Anne Dattilo wrote:

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