[Next project] Waverley, by Walter Scott

[Hendrik Kaiber]

My current project will likely be published soon, and I would like to start a new one, Waverley, by Walter Scott. It's a somewhat complex project, with a glossary and footnotes, but nothing I haven't encountered before.

The edition I would use has two volumes; this seems like a  practical choice, since other editions have different numbers of volumes, so I would format this edition in one part, renaming the chapters of volume 2 to continue from volume 1.

There are two glossaries, one for each volume, with many of the entries being duplicate, I believe I should merge them into one.

There are also some frontmatter sections, some of which I think should be removed, like some chapters of other novels. Which ones do you think should remain? I think "Introduction" and "Preface to the third edition" would be interesting, at least.

For the cover, I would like to use Disbanded, which appears as an illustration in this edition of the novel (​PD proof​). Is this a good choice?

Transcription: PG

​Scans: Vol. 1 | Vol. 2

[Vince Rice]

Even the editions in a single printed volume maintain the two internal volume with chapter numbers starting over, so I don’t see any reason to get rid of that. That type of structure exists all over the corpus.

[Alex Cabal]

OK, sure. I agree with Vince, if the chapter numbers start over in the
next volume then they were probably meant to be that way. Please send a
link to your repo and we can assign a manager and reviewer.

On 6/11/25 6:48 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> My current project will likely be published soon, and I would like to

> start a new one, /Waverley/, by Walter Scott. It's a somewhat complex

> project, with a glossary and footnotes, but nothing I haven't
> encountered before.
>
> The edition I would use has two volumes; this seems like a  practical
> choice, since other editions have different numbers of volumes, so I
> would format this edition in one part, renaming the chapters of volume 2
> to continue from volume 1.
>
> There are two glossaries, one for each volume, with many of the entries
> being duplicate, I believe I should merge them into one.
>
> There are also some frontmatter sections, some of which I think should
> be removed, like some chapters of other novels. Which ones do you think
> should remain? I think "Introduction" and "Preface to the third edition"
> would be interesting, at least.
>

> For the cover, I would like to use Disbanded <https://pt.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Waverley_%28romance%29#/media/Ficheiro:Disbanded.jpg>, which

> appears as an illustration in this edition of the novel (​PD proof

> <https://archive.org/details/johnpettiesixtee00pettuoft/page/n37/
> mode/2up>​). Is this a good choice?
>
> Transcription: PG <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5998>
> ​Scans: Vol. 1 <https://archive.org/details/
> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n7/mode/2up> | Vol. 2 <https://
> archive.org/details/waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n9/mode/2up>
>
> --
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[Hendrik Kaiber]

Here's my repo. What sections of the frontmatter do you think I should keep?

--Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

OK, Robin will manage this with David reviewing. Robin can you look at
the frontmatter/

On 6/12/25 2:43 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> Here's <https://github.com/HendrikBK/walter-scott_waverley> my repo.

> pt.wikipedia.org/ <https://pt.wikipedia.org/>

> > wiki/Waverley_%28romance%29#/media/Ficheiro:Disbanded.jpg>, which
> > appears as an illustration in this edition of the novel (​PD proof
> > <https://archive.org/details/johnpettiesixtee00pettuoft/page/n37/
> <https://archive.org/details/johnpettiesixtee00pettuoft/page/n37/>
> > mode/2up>​). Is this a good choice?
> >
> > Transcription: PG <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5998
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5998>>

> > ​Scans: Vol. 1 <https://archive.org/details/ <https://
> archive.org/details/>

> > waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n7/mode/2up> | Vol. 2 <https://
> > archive.org/details/waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n9/mode/2up

> <http://archive.org/details/waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n9/

> mode/2up>>
> >
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[Robin Whittleton]

Certainly can.

No problem merging the glossaries, but as suggested keep the two volume structure.

For the frontmatter I’d keep the dedication. We can, I think, drop the Editor‘s Note, Advertisement, General Preface and Appendix (I’m confused as to the point of that honestly). Potentially the Editor’s Introduction might be worth keeping? And agreed on the Introduction and Preface to the Third Edition.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I started cleaning the files and applying some basic formatting. Do you think the cover is a good fit or should I search for another one?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Sorry, missed the cover request. Yes, that’s fine, I’ll add it to the artworks DB and assign it to this project.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I have two questions, which I don't believe I encountered before:

1- Both volumes have some notes. They are not technically endnotes since each of the references is has a footnote; however, this footnotes are merely referencing a specific endnote . For instance, page 47 has a note that reads "Note I.—Titus Livius." Note I, in turn, would be the the one in page 285. Should I remove the footnotes ("Note I.—Titus Livius.") and simply add the endnote to the file, or should I treat them in a specific way?

2- There are both author and editor notes; should I possibly add something to the editor's notes to denote their difference, if the editor's notes are actually referenced in our edition's materials? Or just treat them all as endnotes, regardless of who made them? If the former, maybe add <cite>Andrew Lang</cite> or <cite>Editor</cite> in a editorial commit?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

1. That’s a new one to me, but I don’t think there’s any point in keeping the footnote or the header to the endnote, which seems to be just a reference marker for the footnote. I’d remove them both and convert it to a standard endnote. So for your example, an endnote reference in the text that points to an endnote that starts “The attachment to this…”

2. Yes, exactly, though typically I’ve used abbreviations (e.g. A. L. instead of Andrew Lang). Here’s the guideline on cites: https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.2/single-page#7.10.5.3. If the bulk of the endnotes come from one source then you only need to cite the additional ones.

-Robin

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[David]

I'm watching this project progress with interest — I lost steam on Scott's Heart of Midlothian about a year ago. It seemed so complex and time-consuming, and (inspired by one or two others drawing a line on projects that had become too onerous) I simply stopped work on this one.

But I just took a look at my local repo, and lint actually wasn't making as many complaints as I remembered. (Of course the toolset has been updated since then, but not too difficult to update to current spec.) I've pushed everything to Github ... and maybe (just maybe!) I'll return to this. But if anyone wants to take a look (even to say: "Don't bother!), please feel free.

David / Fife, UK

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I'm finished converting the footnotes to endnotes (the PG edition is very inconsistent, with some notes as footnotes and other as endnotes). The Editor's notes, however are absent from this edition, so I would need to transcribe them. I can do it, but would like to know if we actually want them, so that any work I put into them is not wasted.

There are some in vol. I and more in vol. II.

What do you think?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

I’ve done this in the past (adding Ed. cites to the end of each note) and adding them in to the rest of the notes. Like you said it’ll require transcription, but as it’s <10 pages total I think it’s worth it? Having a quick read through it looks like they add value to the text.

-Robin

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[Alex Cabal]

The more important question is whether the notes are interesting. If
they're not then it's fine to drop them, it's just the thoughts of the
editor of this particular edition.

On 6/23/25 2:01 PM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> I’ve done this in the past (adding /Ed./ cites to the end of each note)

> and adding them in to the rest of the notes. Like you said it’ll require
> transcription, but as it’s <10 pages total I think it’s worth it? Having
> a quick read through it looks like they add value to the text.
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 23 Jun 2025, at 19:56, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm finished converting the footnotes to endnotes (the PG edition is
>> very inconsistent, with some notes as footnotes and other as
>> endnotes). The Editor's notes, however are absent from this edition,
>> so I would need to transcribe them. I can do it, but would like to
>> know if we actually want them, so that any work I put into them is not
>> wasted.
>>

>> There are some in vol. I <https://archive.org/details/
>> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/294/mode/2up> and more in vol. II
>> <https://archive.org/details/waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n423/
>> mode/2up?q=%22mansion%22>.

>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> --Hendrik
>> Em quarta-feira, 18 de junho de 2025 às 05:52:21 UTC-3, David escreveu:
>>
>> I'm watching this project progress with interest — I lost steam on

>> Scott's Heart of Midlothian <https://groups.google.com/g/
>> standardebooks/c/NYVg-IRtTeA/m/THRRaqDJCQAJ> about a year ago. It

>> seemed so complex and time-consuming, and (inspired by one or two
>> others drawing a line on projects that had become too onerous) I
>> simply stopped work on this one.
>>
>> But I just took a look at my local repo, and lint actually wasn't
>> making as many complaints as I remembered. (Of course the toolset
>> has been updated since then, but not too difficult to update to
>> current spec.) I've pushed everything to Github ... and maybe
>> (just maybe!) I'll return to this. But if anyone wants to take a

>> look <https://github.com/dajare/walter-scott_the-heart-of-
>> midlothian> (even to say: "Don't bother!), please feel free.

>>
>> David / Fife, UK
>>
>>
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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I personally think most of them are interesting, and give context to some passages, so I would keep them.

--Hendrik

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I added the editor's notes, and think I didn't make any mistakes in ordering of the notes.

Robin, can you take a look at the latest commits and see if there are any major mistakes (starting at commit 24a56ad)? It is the first time I had to deal with this specific issue, and I think it would be better to fix it earlier if any considerable mistakes were made. I'm not sure I added the Editor's <cite> elements correctly.

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Looks good, with the exception of notes 15, 42, and 73, where you’ve included the backlink inside the cite by accident.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I put there on purpose actually. I wasn't sure where is the best place in that situation. Should I put immediately outside the <cite> element?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Oh, OK, I see what you’ve done. So instead of finishing the note with a cite containing the backlink, finish with a p that contains the cite and the backlink.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

Two more questions:

1 - How should I properly format the preface (page 12)? Currently "To the King's Most Gracius Majesty" is in a <h2> element, but this seems wrong. Should it maybe be the <header> of a <blockquote>?

2 - The glossary has a few words that seem to have become common since the publication of the novel (cove, claymore, cantrip. etc). Should they be removed or kept?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

1. Feels like a dedication rather than a preface, so the h2 makes sense in that context. The rest can be formatted as a letter.

2. I’d leave them in. Anything else would be a judgement call, and the meaning may have shifted slightly in common understanding since the publication anyway.

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

Sure, that makes sense. Another question: I'm formatting some blockquotes and tweak others, and a couple of letters have a part of the footer centered (like "Yours, deer Sur," at page 178). Do you think I should try to keep the formatting present in the scans or ignore it, and just use the appropriate style and semantics of the Manual?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

I think that’s more of an extreme indentation from the right rather than centring, but regardless I’d not bother trying to copy that unless you think it’s necessary (i.e. it’s referred to in the book).

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I forgot to ask, but do you think that 'Tis Sixty Years Since should be the subtitle?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

You should keep the “Or,” as well. See Moby Dick for how to do it:

https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-dick/blob/master/src/epub/content.opf#L34-L39

https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-dick/blob/master/src/epub/text/halftitlepage.xhtml

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

There is an epigraph in the part 1page (page 91). Should it be its own file? If so, where do you think is the appropriate place to put it? Before the half titlepage?

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Yep. It can live in an epigraph.xhtml directly before the halftitlepage. Info on epigraphs at https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4 (and note 7.4.6 for full-page epigraphs).

See A Pair of Blue Eyes for an example: https://github.com/standardebooks/thomas-hardy_a-pair-of-blue-eyes/blob/master/src/epub/text/epigraph.xhtml

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

There are a few instances of words being spelled in one way at the glossary, and another in the text (bang-up/bang up;beflumm'd/beflummed for instance). In this case which spelling do you think should have precedence? I think the one in the text, but would like to confirm.

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

You can add multiple spellings and inflections to the glossary-search-key-map. For example, https://github.com/standardebooks/samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/glossary-search-key-map.xml#L72-L75 and https://github.com/standardebooks/samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/text/glossary.xhtml#L144-L149

-Robin

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[Hendrik Kaiber]

I understand that (I actually added a few variants already), but some of the entries have only one instance in the text, and simply adding as a variant will make the glossary entry appear different than the text occurrence. I'm asking if the glossary itself (not the key map file) should be harmonized with the text (maybe I'm not explaining properly).

--Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Right, got it. Personally, I think that it’s best to keep it the same as the source text. I don’t think people will be directly consulting the glossary during a read of the main text without using the key map.

-Robin

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[Alex Cabal]

You should normalize the spellings, use whichever version appears more
frequently.

On 7/24/25 2:36 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> I understand that (I actually added a few variants already), but some of
> the entries have only one instance in the text, and simply adding as a
> variant will make the glossary entry appear different than the text
> occurrence. I'm asking if the glossary itself (not the key map file)
> should be harmonized with the text (maybe I'm not explaining properly).
>
> --Hendrik
> On Thursday, July 24, 2025 at 4:14:05 PM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>
> You can add multiple spellings and inflections to the glossary-
> search-key-map. For example, https://github.com/standardebooks/
> samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/glossary-

> search-key-map.xml#L72-L75 <https://github.com/standardebooks/
> samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/glossary-
> search-key-map.xml#L72-L75> and https://github.com/standardebooks/
> samuel-butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/text/
> glossary.xhtml#L144-L149 <https://github.com/standardebooks/samuel-
> butler-1612-1680_hudibras/blob/master/src/epub/text/
> glossary.xhtml#L144-L149>

>
> -Robin
>
>> On 24 Jul 2025, at 01:26, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> There are a few instances of words being spelled in one way at the
>> glossary, and another in the text (bang-up/bang up;beflumm'd/
>> beflummed for instance). In this case which spelling do you think
>> should have precedence? I think the one in the text, but would
>> like to confirm.
>>
>> --Hendrik
>> On Monday, July 21, 2025 at 3:40:15 PM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>>
>> Yep. It can live in an epigraph.xhtml directly before the
>> halftitlepage. Info on epigraphs at https://

>> standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4 <https://
>> standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.3/single-page#7.4> (and note
>> 7.4.6 for full-page epigraphs).
>>
>> See /A Pair of Blue Eyes/ for an example: https://github.com/
>> standardebooks/thomas-hardy_a-pair-of-blue-eyes/blob/master/
>> src/epub/text/epigraph.xhtml <https://github.com/
>> standardebooks/thomas-hardy_a-pair-of-blue-eyes/blob/master/
>> src/epub/text/epigraph.xhtml>

>>
>>> On 21 Jul 2025, at 18:18, Hendrik Kaiber
>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>

>>> There is an epigraph in the part 1page (page 91 <https://
>>> archive.org/details/waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n89/
>>> mode/2up>). Should it be its own file? If so, where do you

>>> think is the appropriate place to put it? Before the half
>>> titlepage?
>>>
>>> --Hendrik
>>> On Friday, July 18, 2025 at 3:22:03 AM UTC-3 robin wrote:
>>>
>>> You should keep the “Or,” as well. See Moby Dick for how
>>> to do it:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-
>>> dick/blob/master/src/epub/content.opf#L34-L39 <https://
>>> github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-dick/blob/

>>> master/src/epub/content.opf#L34-L39>
>>>
>>> https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-
>>> dick/blob/master/src/epub/text/halftitlepage.xhtml
>>> <https://github.com/standardebooks/herman-melville_moby-
>>> dick/blob/master/src/epub/text/halftitlepage.xhtml>

>>>
>>>> On 18 Jul 2025, at 00:24, Hendrik Kaiber
>>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>

>>>> I forgot to ask, but do you think that /'Tis Sixty Years
>>>> Since /should be the subtitle?

>>>>
>>>> --Hendrik
>>>> Em segunda-feira, 14 de julho de 2025 às 03:00:04 UTC-3,
>>>> robin escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> I think that’s more of an extreme indentation from
>>>> the right rather than centring, but regardless I’d
>>>> not bother trying to copy that unless you think it’s
>>>> necessary (i.e. it’s referred to in the book).
>>>>
>>>> -Robin
>>>>
>>>>> On 13 Jul 2025, at 20:35, Hendrik Kaiber
>>>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, that makes sense. Another question: I'm
>>>>> formatting some blockquotes and tweak others, and a
>>>>> couple of letters have a part of the footer
>>>>> centered (like "Yours, deer Sur," at page 178

>>>>> <https://archive.org/details/
>>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/page/n205/mode/2up>). Do

>>>>> you think I should try to keep the formatting
>>>>> present in the scans or ignore it, and just use the
>>>>> appropriate style and semantics of the Manual?
>>>>>
>>>>> --Hendrik
>>>>> Em domingo, 13 de julho de 2025 às 13:59:56 UTC-3,
>>>>> robin escreveu:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Feels like a dedication rather than a
>>>>> preface, so the h2 makes sense in that context.
>>>>> The rest can be formatted as a letter.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. I’d leave them in. Anything else would be a
>>>>> judgement call, and the meaning may have
>>>>> shifted slightly in common understanding since
>>>>> the publication anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Robin
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13 Jul 2025, at 18:15, Hendrik Kaiber
>>>>>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two more questions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1 - How should I properly format the preface

>>>>>> (page 12 <https://archive.org/details/
>>>>>> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/n11/
>>>>>> mode/2up>)? Currently "To the King's Most

>>>>>>>> commit 24a56ad <https://github.com/
>>>>>>>> HendrikBK/walter-scott_waverley/
>>>>>>>> commit/24a56ad249254aa0b143931c91f1b1e2013041a7>)? It is the first time I had to deal with this specific issue, and I think it would be better to fix it earlier if any considerable mistakes were made. I'm not sure I added the Editor's <cite> elements correctly.

>>>>>>>> details/ <https://
>>>>>>>> archive.org/details/>

>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> waverleynovels011893scotuoft/page/294/mode/2up> and more in vol. II
>>>>>>>> >> <https://archive.org/
>>>>>>>> details/
>>>>>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/

>>>>>>>> page/n423/ <https://
>>>>>>>> archive.org/details/
>>>>>>>> waverleynovelswi02scotuoft/
>>>>>>>> page/n423/>

>>>>>>>> >> mode/2up?q=%22mansion%22>.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> What do you think?
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> --Hendrik
>>>>>>>> >> Em quarta-feira, 18 de
>>>>>>>> junho de 2025 às 05:52:21
>>>>>>>> UTC-3, David escreveu:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> I'm watching this project
>>>>>>>> progress with interest — I
>>>>>>>> lost steam on
>>>>>>>> >> Scott's Heart of
>>>>>>>> Midlothian <https://
>>>>>>>> groups.google.com/g/

>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/>
>>>>>>>> >> standardebooks/c/NYVg-

>>>>>>>> heart-of- <https://
>>>>>>>> github.com/dajare/walter-
>>>>>>>> scott_the-heart-of->

>>>>>>>> >> midlothian> (even to say:
>>>>>>>> "Don't bother!), please feel
>>>>>>>> free.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> David / Fife, UK
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> --
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[Hendrik Kaiber]

Just to give a an update: I'm slowing proofreading the book, marking anything that stands out in need of formatting (there are quite a lot of publication titles!)

One question: There is several passages which are either in Scots or vernacular English from Scotland (I can't really tell the difference). How should I structure them? Should I use <i> with language semantics? This there might be too many passages, so <span> elements might be more appropriate. Since I can't easily tell the difference. Here's an example from chapter XIV (vol. 2): 

“And will ye face thae tearing chields, the dragoons, Ensign Maccombich?” again inquired the landlady.

--Hendrik 

[Robin Whittleton]

Personally I wouldn’t italicise them. There’s still an ongoing argument as to whether Scots is a vernacular, dialect or separate language. But from a purely visual level I think it’d distract from the flow of the novel, and the language is typically “gettable” from context if you only speak English. 

-Robin

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