[Project] The Golden Bough by James George Frazer

Asher Smith

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Jun 22, 2021, 8:43:02 AM6/22/21

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I'm looking to begin this as a long-term project to dip into and out of, but there's an issue in that there are several different editions and Gutenberg has many of them. I'd appreciate Alex's thoughts about what SE would accept before I commit to this.

There is a 12-volume third edition published between 1906-1915. PG has all of the volumes, and I'd estimate conservatively that they're over 4-5,000 pages all in all. The first volume alone has almost 1,500 footnotes. There is also a 1922 one-volume edition, abridged by Frazer himself; this is by far the most popular version on PG, and it's still sold.

I'm interested in producing the abridged version, if that would be accepted. I think that, realistically, I'm unlikely to get through the 12 volume edition, especially as I still don't understand how reorder and renumber endnotes work. Would it be accepted, or would SE only be interested in the 12 volume edition?

Vince

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Jun 22, 2021, 12:42:48 PM6/22/21

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> On Jun 22, 2021, at 7:43 AM, Asher Smith <forlackofa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> …

> I think that, realistically, I'm unlikely to get through the 12 volume edition, especially as I still don't understand how reorder and renumber endnotes work.

> …

Help says pretty much everything there is to say about them. Note that reorder-endnotes was renamed to shift-endnotes in 2.x of the tools.

Alex Cabal

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Jun 22, 2021, 1:33:08 PM6/22/21

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Generally we don't want abridged editions of anything. It looks like vol
12 is just a bibliography and index which we can probably cut.

This would be a really long ebook, probably best something worked on
from time to time in between other ebooks. These long-term projects can
sometimes be tough because you have to keep track of the changes in the
tools and manual as you go along.

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Asher Smith

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Jun 22, 2021, 7:04:03 PM6/22/21

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Would each volume be treated as its own book? It looks like the first two volumes constitute one section, but other volumes are their own section.

Vince

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Jun 22, 2021, 7:18:10 PM6/22/21

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Generally, no. Most multi-volume books of the past were split to keep both the physical size and the cost down. PD ebooks don’t have either limitation. We have many books in the corpus that were originally multi-volume but are single books here, e.g. Clarissa, War and Peace, etc.

Vince

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Jun 22, 2021, 7:25:06 PM6/22/21

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The internal structure depends on the book. For example, Clarissa was split into multiple volumes both internally and externally, but only for convenience; there was nothing about the internal structure of the book itself that needed volumes, so David eliminated them when he did the ebook. However, War and Peace has a three-part internal structure of four “books,” with parts in each, and chapters in each of those, which was independent of how many volumes it was split into for publication (which, like Clarissa, varied quite a bit). Thus W&P has the internal structure of books/parts/chapters, but it’s still a single ebook.

David Grigg

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Jun 22, 2021, 7:50:07 PM6/22/21

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When I’ve got time, I think I’ll write a user guide for shift-endnotes and renumber-endnotes, with worked examples of when they are most useful. Renumber-endnotes was a lifesaver for Lavengro (and earlier for The Twelve Caesars).

Asher Smith

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Jun 23, 2021, 6:57:27 AM6/23/21

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OK, thanks all for the answers. Vince - your second answer is the one I was looking for. Based on my initial understanding, I think it would have 7 internal "books" with some number of chapters within each; it's pretty clear how that divides, as chapter numbering restarts. Also, blessedly, it looks like the endnotes are in such a format that Regex can automate a lot of it. I think a lot of the work will come down to the endnotes (expanding citations, semanticating the italicised bits, etc) and dealing with the internal tables and diagrams.

Alex, I agree that this is a long-term thing. I think I'm going to pick up She Stoops to Conquer as a short term one to do next.

Can someone have a look at the PG source (https://www.gutenberg.org/files/59607/59607-h/59607-h.htm) and confirm that I should be removing all the bits of text that are in the margins and describe what that section is about? I know I'll be getting rid of page numbers etc. and the bibliography.

Vince Rice

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Jun 23, 2021, 1:25:49 PM6/23/21

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Yes, get rid of that.

And please include a direct page link when you have something to be viewed; I scrolled for quite a while on my phone and was about to give up. (And yes, Alex is somewhere sniggering, as he had to say that to me more than once before it took.)

On Jun 23, 2021, at 5:57 AM, Asher Smith <forlackofa...@gmail.com> wrote:

OK, thanks all for the answers. Vince - your second answer is the one I was looking for. Based on my initial understanding, I think it would have 7 internal "books" with some number of chapters within each; it's pretty clear how that divides, as chapter numbering restarts. Also, blessedly, it looks like the endnotes are in such a format that Regex can automate a lot of it. I think a lot of the work will come down to the endnotes (expanding citations, semanticating the italicised bits, etc) and dealing with the internal tables and diagrams.

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Asher Smith

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Jun 24, 2021, 6:27:51 AM6/24/21

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OK, here's some links:

Repo: https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough

Book 1: Magic and the Evolution of Kings
- Volume 1
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf
- Volume 2
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-2.pdf
Book 2: Taboo and the Perils of the Soul
- Volume 3
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41832
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-taboo-the-perils-of-the-soul.pdf
Book 3: The Dying God
- Volume 4
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41572
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-the-dying-god.pdf
Book 4: Adonis, Attis, Osiris
- Volume 5
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43605
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-1.pdf
- Volume 6
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-2.pdf
Book 5: Spirits of the Corn and of the Wild
- Volume 7
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42067
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-corn-wild-1.pdf
- Volume 8
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42336
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-corn-wild-2.pdf
Book 6: The Scapegoat
- Volume 9
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-the-scapegoat.pdf
Book 7: Balder the Beautiful
- Volume 10
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-1.pdf
- Volume 11
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433
  - Scans: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-2.pdf

I'll report back when I've made some progress and/or when I well and truly give up.

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 11, 2022, 12:08:07 PM3/11/22

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Any updates on this? I'd be interested in helping out if that's needed.

Looking at the discussion above, I wonder if in this case it wouldn't make sense to have a separate ebook for each "Book". For practical reasons, simply because doing all eleven volumes at once is a lot of work (and could easily and justifiably be abandoned), but also because each "Book" looks to be logically separate with its own title, and title page (i. e. they're not just called The Golden Bough Volume x). Maybe it would make more sense in this case to think of them as a series? It would also make it easier for multiple people to contribute (if that's desired). Just my two cents.

Asher Smith

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Mar 11, 2022, 1:16:05 PM3/11/22

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No updates from my end - I've been spending my time on a couple other projects and life has gotten in the way.

I would absolutely be interested in working on this with you. I presume that the nature of git makes the technical side of that fairly easy, but I'm not particularly aware of other productions where that's been done, so I don't know that there's an established way of doing it.

Alex is the one with the final say, but I would bet £5 he'll say to do it as one production. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which may be longer, is being done as one, and I don't think we ever want to put a reader in a position where they're confused or I ly have part of the book, and because they're digital, space isn't a concern.

I think the most time consuming part of this production will be endnotes, something with which I am not overly familiar. I imagine that the way to do this will be to put the files together and then work on different parts of the book and just stay in close contact to make sure we're doing things in the same way.

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Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 11, 2022, 1:40:44 PM3/11/22

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Ok great! Yeah I don't think it'll be too challenging technically on the git side, but you're right that the endnotes could get tricky. Thankfully PG moved all the footnotes to (local) endnotes already.

I think the difference between this and Decline and Fall is that in this case there does seem to be a real logical separation between volumes (although you've probably read more than me so you can correct me if that's not the case). Each book listed above comes with its own preface for instance, which indicates to me that the author thought of them as separate publications. He also had no problem with splitting the second edition into Golden Bough 1, 2 and 3, but for the third edition he came up with a separate title for each division (not Golden Bough 1 to 12), so to me it seems like he really meant them to be more or less standalone.

Vince

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Mar 11, 2022, 3:28:39 PM3/11/22

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As already said, Alex has the final word, but I don’t think they’re standalone, or that Frazier meant them to be. Even the third edition books have “The Golden Bough” as the title of the work; the individual volumes are essentially subtitles.

The Vicomte de Bragelonne is probably a more apt comparison than Decline and Fall. Bragelonne was (and is) regularly split into three or four volumes, each with its own title (Louise de la Valliére, The Man in the Iron Mask, etc.), but it’s still a single work and that’s how Dumas intended it. That’s how I’m producing our edition as well. (On the non-PD side, same for LOTR—although commonly called a trilogy, it’s actually six “books,” but one work. The three volumes were purely for size and expense reasons.)

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 11, 2022, 4:10:51 PM3/11/22

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I guess standalone wasn't the right word because they are meant to be read sequentially of course. I meant more that the division isn't arbitrary, and that there is a thematic difference between the volumes. But now that you mention The Vicomte de Bragelonne (and LOTR, which I'd assumed we would do in three volumes), I see your point. If those are one volume productions then I suppose this should be too.

Alex Cabal

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Mar 11, 2022, 5:20:34 PM3/11/22

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These should definitely all be in one ebook. If you want to work on it
together, then I suppose you could give it a shot. This would be the
first ebook done by more than one person. I think you will have to
carefully maneuver things like spelling modernization across the whole
ebook, not just your parts. For example if you find an old spelling of a
word in part 11, you have to make sure part 1 is updated too. Merge
conflicts might be difficult. But, we can try it and see where it goes.

On 3/11/22 4:10 PM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> I guess standalone wasn't the right word because they are meant to be
> read sequentially of course. I meant more that the division isn't
> arbitrary, and that there is a thematic difference between the volumes.

> But now that you mention /The Vicomte de Bragelonne /(and LOTR, which

> I'd assumed we would do in three volumes), I see your point. If those
> are one volume productions then I suppose this should be too.
>
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 9:28:39 PM UTC+1 Vince wrote:
>
> As already said, Alex has the final word, but I don’t think they’re
> standalone, or that Frazier meant them to be. Even the third edition
> books have “The Golden Bough” as the title of the work; the
> individual volumes are essentially subtitles.
>

> /The Vicomte de Bragelonne/ is probably a more apt comparison than
> /Decline and Fall/. /Bragelonne/ was (and is) regularly split into
> three or four volumes, each with its own title (/Louise de la
> Valliére/, /The Man in the Iron Mask/, etc.), but it’s still a

>> and title page (i. e. they're not just called /The Golden
>> Bough Volume x/). Maybe it would make more sense in this

>> case to think of them as a series? It would also make it
>> easier for multiple people to contribute (if that's
>> desired). Just my two cents.
>

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Alex Cabal

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Mar 11, 2022, 5:21:09 PM3/11/22

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It would be best to coordinate via private email or Github since the
list probably doesn't need day-to-day nitty gritty of what's going on in
the ebook.

On 3/11/22 4:10 PM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:

> I guess standalone wasn't the right word because they are meant to be
> read sequentially of course. I meant more that the division isn't
> arbitrary, and that there is a thematic difference between the volumes.

> But now that you mention /The Vicomte de Bragelonne /(and LOTR, which

> I'd assumed we would do in three volumes), I see your point. If those
> are one volume productions then I suppose this should be too.
>
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 9:28:39 PM UTC+1 Vince wrote:
>
> As already said, Alex has the final word, but I don’t think they’re
> standalone, or that Frazier meant them to be. Even the third edition
> books have “The Golden Bough” as the title of the work; the
> individual volumes are essentially subtitles.
>

> /The Vicomte de Bragelonne/ is probably a more apt comparison than
> /Decline and Fall/. /Bragelonne/ was (and is) regularly split into
> three or four volumes, each with its own title (/Louise de la

> Valliére/, /The Man in the Iron Mask/, etc.), but it’s still a

>> and title page (i. e. they're not just called /The Golden

>> Bough Volume x/). Maybe it would make more sense in this

>> case to think of them as a series? It would also make it
>> easier for multiple people to contribute (if that's
>> desired). Just my two cents.
>

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Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 11, 2022, 6:28:21 PM3/11/22

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Sure thing. Asher my email is just my name @gmail.com.

David Grigg

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Mar 11, 2022, 7:41:33 PM3/11/22

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If I can make a suggestion about endnotes: I see that each volume has its own set. I would suggest that to begin with you give each endnote a distinct code (eg note-IV-53 or note-5-110) reflecting the volume, with of course matching noteref ids.

When you're done, you can then combine all of these into a single endnotes file and run se renumber-endnotes, which will give each note a sequential number starting from 1.

I did this for The Lives of the Caesars and for Clarissa, and it works fine (though of course, it's a good idea to do this in a clean commit and check carefully that all is well once you're done.

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 12, 2022, 2:35:01 AM3/12/22

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Thanks David, that sounds quite useful. I think it'll end up being around 10,000 endnotes, so anything to avoid manual labour on that is definitely appreciated.

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 12, 2022, 2:38:40 AM3/12/22

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Alex, for the cover image, I think this is almost obligatory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough_(painting)

Proof of PD can actually be found right before the title page in Volume 1: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf

Alex Cabal

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Mar 12, 2022, 10:14:36 AM3/12/22

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That does seem like a good thematic choice but remember that the title
box will obscure much of the lower half of the painting. Can you crop it
in such a way that that it's not just a cover of a sky and treetops? If
not, then we'd have to go with a different painting even though this one
is the obvious thematic choice.

Also, can you find scans of this book on archive.org, Google Books, or
Hathi Trust? I would like to have those scans for my records instead of
something hosted on a random Wordpress blog.

On 3/12/22 3:38 AM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> Alex, for the cover image, I think this is almost obligatory:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Bough_(painting)
>
> Proof of PD can actually be found right before the title page in Volume
> 1: https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf
>
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 8:35:01 AM UTC+1 Lukas Bystricky wrote:
>
> Thanks David, that sounds quite useful. I think it'll end up being
> around 10,000 endnotes, so anything to avoid manual labour on that
> is definitely appreciated.
>
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 1:41:33 AM UTC+1 david...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> If I can make a suggestion about endnotes: I see that each
> volume has its own set. I would suggest that to begin with you
> give each endnote a distinct code (eg note-IV-53 or note-5-110)
> reflecting the volume, with of course matching noteref ids.
>
> When you're done, you can then combine all of these into a
> single endnotes file and run se renumber-endnotes, which will
> give each note a sequential number starting from 1.
>

> I did this for /The Lives of the Caesars/ and for /Clarissa,
> /and it works fine (though of course, it's a good idea to do

> this in a clean commit and check carefully that all is well once
> you're done.
> On 12 Mar 2022, 10:28 AM +1100, Lukas Bystricky
> <lukasby...@gmail.com>, wrote:
>
> Sure thing. Asher my email is just my name @gmail.com

> <http://gmail.com>.

>
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:21:09 PM UTC+1 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> It would be best to coordinate via private email or
> Github since the
> list probably doesn't need day-to-day nitty gritty of
> what's going on in
> the ebook.
>
>

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Asher Smith

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Mar 12, 2022, 1:02:03 PM3/12/22

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Hey all,

Here are some updated links and a proposed cover crop

Book 1: Magic and the Evolution of Kings

- Volume 1
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175095/page/n3/mode/2up
- Volume 2
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210172/page/n5/mode/2up

Book 2: Taboo and the Perils of the Soul

- Volume 3
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41832
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/goldenboughtaboo00fraz/mode/2up

Book 3: The Dying God

- Volume 4
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41572
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210167/page/n3/mode/2up

Book 4: Adonis, Attis, Osiris

- Volume 5
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43605
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.425304/page/n1/mode/2up
- Volume 6
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210173/page/n5/mode/2up

Book 5: Spirits of the Corn and of the Wild

- Volume 7
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42067
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/b21356774_001/page/n5/mode/2up
- Volume 8
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42336
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.277281/page/n1/mode/2up
Book 6: The Scapegoat
- Volume 9
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up

Book 7: Balder the Beautiful

- Volume 10
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210169/page/n3/mode/2up
- Volume 11
  - PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433
  - Scans: https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209435/page/n3/mode/2up

And here's the repository: https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough

Alex Cabal

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Mar 12, 2022, 1:20:29 PM3/12/22

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OK, that cover works!

On 3/12/22 2:02 PM, Asher Smith wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> Here are some updated links and a proposed cover crop
>

>
> cover.jpg
>
> And here's the
> repository: https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough
>
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 3:14:36 PM UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> That does seem like a good thematic choice but remember that the title
> box will obscure much of the lower half of the painting. Can you
> crop it
> in such a way that that it's not just a cover of a sky and treetops? If
> not, then we'd have to go with a different painting even though this
> one
> is the obvious thematic choice.
>
> Also, can you find scans of this book on archive.org

> <http://archive.org>, Google Books, or

> > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com>>.

> >
> > On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:21:09 PM UTC+1 Alex Cabal wrote:
> >
> > It would be best to coordinate via private email or
> > Github since the
> > list probably doesn't need day-to-day nitty gritty of
> > what's going on in
> > the ebook.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/96595060-5376-45f4-bc2f-290146679bcbn%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/96595060-5376-45f4-bc2f-290146679bcbn%40googlegroups.com>
>
> >

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Alex Cabal

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Mar 12, 2022, 1:20:55 PM3/12/22

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Can you find a link to the cover art PD proof on one of the resources I
listed earlier?

On 3/12/22 2:02 PM, Asher Smith wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> Here are some updated links and a proposed cover crop
>

> cover.jpg
>
> And here's the
> repository: https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough
>
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 3:14:36 PM UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> That does seem like a good thematic choice but remember that the title
> box will obscure much of the lower half of the painting. Can you
> crop it
> in such a way that that it's not just a cover of a sky and treetops? If
> not, then we'd have to go with a different painting even though this
> one
> is the obvious thematic choice.
>
> Also, can you find scans of this book on archive.org

> <http://archive.org>, Google Books, or

> > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com>>.

> >
> > On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 11:21:09 PM UTC+1 Alex Cabal wrote:
> >
> > It would be best to coordinate via private email or
> > Github since the
> > list probably doesn't need day-to-day nitty gritty of
> > what's going on in
> > the ebook.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
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> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
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> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/96595060-5376-45f4-bc2f-290146679bcbn%40googlegroups.com

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/96595060-5376-45f4-bc2f-290146679bcbn%40googlegroups.com>
>
> >
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>

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Asher Smith

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Mar 12, 2022, 1:24:17 PM3/12/22

to Standard Ebooks

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210147/page/n7/mode/2up

The first page of this has a (kinda awful) BW scan of the painting. Is this good enough?

Asher Smith

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Mar 13, 2022, 7:38:00 AM3/13/22

to standar...@googlegroups.com

The scans have subchapter titles formatted in the following way:

My instinct is that we would format it as:

<h4>2. Artemis and Hippolytus</h4>

I have a couple questions here:

Do we keep the § symbol?
Do we convert the ordinal to Roman numerals?
Do we italicise the title?

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Asher Smith

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Mar 13, 2022, 1:12:36 PM3/13/22

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The individual volumes have a half title page each that lists the author the following way:

Is there any place to put this full list of titles? I don’t see anything like it on any of the halftitlepage.xhtml files I’ve seen in the corpus, but we did something similar in Man and Superman with appendix-1, which was styled to look like it was a half title.

On 13 Mar 2022, at 11:37, Asher Smith <forlackofa...@gmail.com> wrote:

The scans have subchapter titles formatted in the following way:

<Screenshot 2022-03-13 at 11.34.41.png>

Alex Cabal

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Mar 13, 2022, 1:21:24 PM3/13/22

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Don't include all those titles. Just a regular half title as we would
normally do, if necessary

On 3/13/22 1:12 PM, Asher Smith wrote:
> The individual volumes have a half title page each that lists the author
> the following way:
>

> Is there any place to put this full list of titles? I don’t see anything
> like it on any of the halftitlepage.xhtml files I’ve seen in the corpus,

> but we did something similar in /Man and Superman/ with

> appendix-1, which was styled to look like it was a half title.
>
>
>> On 13 Mar 2022, at 11:37, Asher Smith <forlackofa...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:forlackofa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> The scans have subchapter titles formatted in the following way:
>>
>> <Screenshot 2022-03-13 at 11.34.41.png>
>>
>> My instinct is that we would format it as:
>>
>> <section id=“chapter-1-1-2”>
>> <h4>2. Artemis and Hippolytus</h4>
>>
>> I have a couple questions here:
>>

>> 1. Do we keep the § symbol?
>> 2. Do we convert the ordinal to Roman numerals?
>> 3. Do we italicise the title?

>>
>>
>>> On 12 Mar 2022, at 18:24, Asher Smith
>>> <forlackofa...@gmail.com

>>> <mailto:forlackofa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210147/page/n7/mode/2up

>>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210147/page/n7/mode/2up>
>>>
>>> The first page of this has a (kinda awful) BW scan of the painting.
>>> Is this good enough?
>>>
>>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 6:20:55 PM UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
>>>
>>> Can you find a link to the cover art PD proof on one of the
>>> resources I
>>> listed earlier?
>>>
>>> On 3/12/22 2:02 PM, Asher Smith wrote:
>>> > Hey all,
>>> >
>>> > Here are some updated links and a proposed cover crop
>>> >
>>> > * Book 1: Magic and the Evolution of Kings
>>> > o Volume 1
>>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607>
>>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607>>
>>> > + Scans:
>>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175095/page/n3/mode/2up

>>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175095/page/n3/mode/2up>
>>> >
>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf

>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf>>
>>> > o Volume 2
>>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250>
>>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250>>
>>> > + Scans:
>>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210172/page/n5/mode/2up

>>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210172/page/n5/mode/2up>
>>> > <https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.425305/page/n1/mode/2up

>>> <https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.425304/page/n1/mode/2up><https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-1.pdf

>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-1.pdf>>
>>> > o Volume 6
>>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923>
>>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923>>
>>> > + Scans:
>>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210173/page/n5/mode/2up

>>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210173/page/n5/mode/2up>
>>> >
>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-2.pdf

>>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.277281/page/n1/mode/2up>
>>> >
>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-corn-wild-2.pdf

>>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210169/page/n3/mode/2up>
>>> >
>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-1.pdf

>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-1.pdf>>
>>> > o Volume 11
>>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433>
>>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433
>>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433>>
>>> > + Scans:
>>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209435/page/n3/mode/2up

>>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209435/page/n3/mode/2up>
>>> >
>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-2.pdf

>>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-2.pdf>>
>>> >
>>> > cover.jpg
>>> >
>>> > And here's the
>>> > repository:
>>> https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough
>>> <https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough>
>>> >
>>> > On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 3:14:36 PM UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
>>> >
>>> > That does seem like a good thematic choice but remember that
>>> the title
>>> > box will obscure much of the lower half of the painting. Can you
>>> > crop it
>>> > in such a way that that it's not just a cover of a sky and
>>> treetops? If
>>> > not, then we'd have to go with a different painting even though
>>> this
>>> > one
>>> > is the obvious thematic choice.
>>> >
>>> > Also, can you find scans of this book onarchive.org

>>> <http://archive.org/>
>>> > <http://archive.org <http://archive.org/>>, Google Books, or

>>> <http://gmail.com/>
>>> > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com/>>
>>> > > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com/><http://gmail.com
>>> <http://gmail.com/>>>.

>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a51bc6cf-42be-4aba-8e0b-ee75bfd11264n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a51bc6cf-42be-4aba-8e0b-ee75bfd11264n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> visithttps://groups.google.com/d/topic/standardebooks/jmd_rAOR-YU/unsubscribe

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>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ae782adf-c6f2-444e-ace5-0f1540e08195n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>
>
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Alex Cabal

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Mar 13, 2022, 1:21:36 PM3/13/22

to standar...@googlegroups.com

Can you send a link to the page scan?

On 3/13/22 7:37 AM, Asher Smith wrote:
> The scans have subchapter titles formatted in the following way:
>
>

> My instinct is that we would format it as:
>
> <section id=“chapter-1-1-2”>
> <h4>2. Artemis and Hippolytus</h4>
>
> I have a couple questions here:
>

> 1. Do we keep the § symbol?
> 2. Do we convert the ordinal to Roman numerals?
> 3. Do we italicise the title?

>
>
>> On 12 Mar 2022, at 18:24, Asher Smith <forlackofa...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:forlackofa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210147/page/n7/mode/2up

>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210147/page/n7/mode/2up>
>>
>> The first page of this has a (kinda awful) BW scan of the painting. Is
>> this good enough?
>>
>> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 6:20:55 PM UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
>>
>> Can you find a link to the cover art PD proof on one of the
>> resources I
>> listed earlier?
>>
>> On 3/12/22 2:02 PM, Asher Smith wrote:
>> > Hey all,
>> >
>> > Here are some updated links and a proposed cover crop
>> >
>> > * Book 1: Magic and the Evolution of Kings
>> > o Volume 1
>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607>
>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607>>
>> > + Scans:
>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175095/page/n3/mode/2up

>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175095/page/n3/mode/2up>
>> >
>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf

>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf>>
>> > o Volume 2
>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250>
>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250>>
>> > + Scans:
>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210172/page/n5/mode/2up

>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210172/page/n5/mode/2up>
>> > <https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.425305/page/n1/mode/2up

>> <https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.425304/page/n1/mode/2up><https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-1.pdf

>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-1.pdf>>
>> > o Volume 6
>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923>
>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923>>
>> > + Scans:
>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210173/page/n5/mode/2up

>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210173/page/n5/mode/2up>
>> >
>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-2.pdf

>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-2.pdf>>
>> > * Book 5: Spirits of the Corn and of the Wild
>> > o Volume 7
>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42067
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42067>
>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42067
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42067>>
>> > + Scans:
>> >https://archive.org/details/b21356774_001/page/n5/mode/2up
>> <https://archive.org/details/b21356774_001/page/n5/mode/2up>
>> > <https://archive.org/details/b21356774_001/page/n5/mode/2up
>> <https://archive.org/details/b21356774_001/page/n5/mode/2up>>
>> > o Volume 8
>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42336
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42336>
>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42336
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42336>>
>> > + Scans:
>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.277281/page/n1/mode/2up

>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.277281/page/n1/mode/2up>
>> >
>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-corn-wild-2.pdf

>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-corn-wild-2.pdf>>
>> > * Book 6: The Scapegoat
>> > o Volume 9
>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661>
>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661>>
>> > + Scans:
>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up
>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up>
>> >
>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up
>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up>>
>> > * Book 7: Balder the Beautiful
>> > o Volume 10
>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049>
>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049>>
>> > + Scans:
>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210169/page/n3/mode/2up

>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210169/page/n3/mode/2up>
>> >
>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-1.pdf

>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-1.pdf>>
>> > o Volume 11
>> > + PG:https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433>
>> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433>>
>> > + Scans:
>> >https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209435/page/n3/mode/2up

>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209435/page/n3/mode/2up>
>> >
>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-2.pdf

>> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-2.pdf>>
>> >
>> > cover.jpg
>> >
>> > And here's the
>> > repository:
>> https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough
>> <https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough>
>> >
>> > On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 3:14:36 PM UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
>> >
>> > That does seem like a good thematic choice but remember that the
>> title
>> > box will obscure much of the lower half of the painting. Can you
>> > crop it
>> > in such a way that that it's not just a cover of a sky and
>> treetops? If
>> > not, then we'd have to go with a different painting even though this
>> > one
>> > is the obvious thematic choice.
>> >

>> > Also, can you find scans of this book onarchive.org
>> <http://archive.org/>

>> > <http://archive.org <http://archive.org/>>, Google Books, or

>> <http://gmail.com/>
>> > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com/>>
>> > > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com/><http://gmail.com

>> <http://gmail.com/>>>.

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a51bc6cf-42be-4aba-8e0b-ee75bfd11264n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a51bc6cf-42be-4aba-8e0b-ee75bfd11264n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>>
>>
>> --
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>> visithttps://groups.google.com/d/topic/standardebooks/jmd_rAOR-YU/unsubscribe
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/topic/standardebooks/jmd_rAOR-YU/unsubscribe>.

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>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ae782adf-c6f2-444e-ace5-0f1540e08195n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
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Alex Cabal

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Mar 13, 2022, 1:21:46 PM3/13/22

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That works, thanks!

On 3/12/22 2:24 PM, Asher Smith wrote:
> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210147/page/n7/mode/2up
>
> The first page of this has a (kinda awful) BW scan of the painting. Is
> this good enough?
>
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 6:20:55 PM UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> Can you find a link to the cover art PD proof on one of the resources I
> listed earlier?
>
> On 3/12/22 2:02 PM, Asher Smith wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Here are some updated links and a proposed cover crop
> >
> > * Book 1: Magic and the Evolution of Kings
> > o Volume 1
> > + PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/59607>>
> > + Scans:
> >

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175095/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175095/page/n3/mode/2up>
>
> >
> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf

> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-magic-art-1.pdf>>
>
> > o Volume 2
> > + PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/60250>>
> > + Scans:
> >

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210172/page/n5/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210172/page/n5/mode/2up>
>
> > <https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.425305/page/n1/mode/2up

> <https://archive.org/details/dli.ernet.425304/page/n1/mode/2up>
> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-1.pdf

> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-1.pdf>>
>
> > o Volume 6
> > + PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41923>>
> > + Scans:
> >

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210173/page/n5/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210173/page/n5/mode/2up>
>
> >
> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-adonis-attis-osiris-2.pdf

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.277281/page/n1/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.277281/page/n1/mode/2up>
>
> >
> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-corn-wild-2.pdf

> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-corn-wild-2.pdf>>
>
> > * Book 6: The Scapegoat
> > o Volume 9
> > + PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42661>>
> > + Scans:
> >
> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up>
>
> >
> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up
> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210168/page/n5/mode/2up>>
>
> > * Book 7: Balder the Beautiful
> > o Volume 10
> > + PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43049>>
> > + Scans:
> >

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210169/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210169/page/n3/mode/2up>
>
> >
> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-1.pdf

> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-1.pdf>>
>
> > o Volume 11
> > + PG: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43433>>
> > + Scans:
> >

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209435/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.209435/page/n3/mode/2up>
>
> >
> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-2.pdf

> <https://wordandsilence.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/golden-bough-balder-the-beautiful-2.pdf>>
>
> >
> > cover.jpg
> >
> > And here's the
> > repository:
> https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough
> <https://github.com/ACBSmith/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough>
> >
> > On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 3:14:36 PM UTC Alex Cabal wrote:
> >
> > That does seem like a good thematic choice but remember that the
> title
> > box will obscure much of the lower half of the painting. Can you
> > crop it
> > in such a way that that it's not just a cover of a sky and
> treetops? If
> > not, then we'd have to go with a different painting even though this
> > one
> > is the obvious thematic choice.
> >
> > Also, can you find scans of this book on archive.org
> <http://archive.org>

> > <http://archive.org <http://archive.org>>, Google Books, or

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a51bc6cf-42be-4aba-8e0b-ee75bfd11264n%40googlegroups.com>
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a51bc6cf-42be-4aba-8e0b-ee75bfd11264n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a51bc6cf-42be-4aba-8e0b-ee75bfd11264n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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Asher Smith

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Mar 13, 2022, 1:23:59 PM3/13/22

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That title is here on this page:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.175095/page/n56/mode/1up

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Alex Cabal

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Mar 13, 2022, 2:17:12 PM3/13/22

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These just look like subchapters to me. You can remove the section mark,
convert to Roman, and style them according to the manual.

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 14, 2022, 7:53:28 PM3/14/22

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As I mentioned above, there will be lot of endnotes for this productions, I'd guess around 10,000. That's not by itself a problem of course, I imagine Gibbons will have around that many if not more, but in Frazer's case most (a very rough estimate of 70%) of the endnotes are purely bibliographic, for example, "K. von den Steinen, Unter den Naturvölkern Zentral-Brasiliens (Berlin, 1894), pp. 511, 512." Any chance those could be removed? I know that as a reader I would find it distracting/tedious to have so many endnotes referring me to articles and books that are probably quite difficult to even access today outside a university library (even if one were inclined, which I suspect almost no readers would be).

Alex Cabal

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Mar 14, 2022, 7:55:53 PM3/14/22

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No, we keep them all. It's tedious but that's life sometimes.

On 3/14/22 7:53 PM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> As I mentioned above, there will be lot of endnotes for this
> productions, I'd guess around 10,000. That's not by itself a problem of
> course, I imagine Gibbons will have around that many if not more, but in
> Frazer's case most (a very rough estimate of 70%) of the endnotes are

> purely bibliographic, for example, "K. von den Steinen, /Unter den
> Naturvölkern Zentral-Brasiliens/ (Berlin, 1894), pp. 511, 512." Any

> <http://onarchive.org>
> >>>> <http://archive.org/ <http://archive.org/>>
> >>>> > <http://archive.org <http://archive.org>
> <http://archive.org/ <http://archive.org/>>>, Google Books, or

> >>>> <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/>>
> >>>> > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com> <http://gmail.com/
> <http://gmail.com/>>>
> >>>> > > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com> <http://gmail.com/

> <http://gmail.com/>><http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com>

> >>>> <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/>>>>.

> <http://groups.google.com/d/topic/standardebooks/jmd_rAOR-YU/unsubscribe>

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Asher Smith

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Mar 15, 2022, 5:49:51 AM3/15/22

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This is what we're using for the chapter and subchapter headers - does this look right? (This is from the start of chapter 5)

<body epub:type="bodymatter z3998:nonfiction">

<section id="book-1" epub:type="division">

<section id="chapter-1-5" epub:type="chapter">

<hgroup>

<h3 epub:type="ordinal z3998:roman">V</h3>

<h4 epub:type="title">The Magical Control of the Weather</h4>

</hgroup>

<section id="chapter-1-5-1" epub:type="subchapter">

<hgroup>

<h4 epub:type="ordinal z3998:roman">I</h4>

<h5 epub:type="title">The Public Magician</h5>

</hgroup>

Alex Cabal

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Mar 15, 2022, 10:21:52 AM3/15/22

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Yes, looks good

> > <http://onarchive.org <http://onarchive.org>>

> > >>>> <http://archive.org/ <http://archive.org/>
> <http://archive.org/ <http://archive.org/>>>
> > >>>> > <http://archive.org <http://archive.org>
> <http://archive.org <http://archive.org>>

> > <http://archive.org/ <http://archive.org/> <http://archive.org/

> > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com>>
> > >>>> <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/> <http://gmail.com/
> <http://gmail.com/>>>
> > >>>> > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com> <http://gmail.com

> <http://gmail.com>> <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/>
> > <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/>>>>

> > >>>> > > <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com> <http://gmail.com

> <http://gmail.com>> <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/>
> > <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/>>><http://gmail.com

> <http://gmail.com> <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com>>
> > >>>> <http://gmail.com/ <http://gmail.com/> <http://gmail.com/

> <http://groups.google.com/d/topic/standardebooks/jmd_rAOR-YU/unsubscribe

> <http://groups.google.com/d/topic/standardebooks/jmd_rAOR-YU/unsubscribe>>
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Asher Smith

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Mar 17, 2022, 12:17:51 PM3/17/22

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Does anybody know what N.F., N.D., or N.S. mean in the context of footnotes? I'm assuming that N.D. means no date, but I'm not sure.

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 17, 2022, 12:58:35 PM3/17/22

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I think you're right about N.D. (in my endnotes it's written in small caps, unlike N.S.). I found one of the articles that uses N.S. and based on that I'd conclude it probably stands for "New Series". It looks like N.F. only comes after German references, so it's possible that means something similar in German (unfortunately not "New Series", at least according to Google).

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 17, 2022, 1:12:36 PM3/17/22

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I also had some questions about endnotes.

Frazer has some references to previous volumes in the Golden Bough, e.g.

See The Magic Art and the Evolution of Kings, vol. i. pp. 332 sqq., 373 sqq.
Now of course the page numbers and volumes aren't used, so should we replace it with something like

See The Magic Art and Evolution of Kings, Chapter x, Section y,

maybe with a one-way link to the relevant text?

2. Frazer abbreviates the titles of some works, e.g. Virgil, Aen. i. 179, 448. Presumably this was done for printing reasons. Should these be expanded to (in this case to Virgil, Aeneid)? It would help keep each endnote more self-contained.

3. Speaking of being self-contained, is it ok to leave in op. cit. when the work referenced is given earlier in the same endnote?

4. op. cit. and loc. cit are both in MW without periods. Should we remove the italics and periods?

Vince

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Mar 17, 2022, 1:31:28 PM3/17/22

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1. Yes. Put an id on the paragraph where the link should go, and link to that. (See the manual for the specifics about naming the id.)

2. These can be expanded, but do not have to be. (I spent a few months researching and expanding all of the ones in Gibbon.) If you expand them, they should be in an editorial commit.

3. Yes; same for ibid.

4. I just asked about this a couple of weeks ago, and Alex said leave the periods in, and no Latin tags.

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 17, 2022, 2:53:20 PM3/17/22

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Thanks Vince, I think it's not too difficult in this case to expand. At least in the volume I'm working on there's not many and no real research looks needed to figure out what everything is. I'll discuss privately with Asher.

I have another couple questions:

1. I ran modernize-spelling on the endnotes file and it changed some words in the titles of works. I suppose these need to be reverted?

2. Lint is giving me the error t-033 (Space after dash). It's apparently not happy with something like "Bijdragen tot de Taal- Land- en Volkenkunde van Nederlandsch-Indië" (there's a lot of Dutch references like this). Note those are hyphens, so I think this is similar to the situation with "pre- " in 8.7.7.3.

The wikipedia page has the hyphens there (with a comma after Taal-), so I think we want to keep them. How can I make lint happy here?

Vince

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Mar 17, 2022, 3:23:01 PM3/17/22

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1. Yes, I have the same situation (book names with “Mahomet,” e.g.).

2. Interesting. Given that’s the actual name (Brill and Jstor have issues that can be viewed), I think you’ll have to just create a ignore file entry for it.

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 19, 2022, 6:56:35 AM3/19/22

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I have a few more (hopefully, but probably not, final) questions about the endnotes:

1. Frazer occasionally uses superscript in the endnotes, as seen here,

Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 11.29.59 AM.png

I've figured out that this refers to the edition, because in other references Frazer explicitly spells it out, as the 9th edition,

Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 11.31.08 AM.png

To complicate matters, in later volumes he sometimes spells it out as "ninth",

Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 11.42.28 AM.png

I don't know if it's feasible to standardize things like 9th vs. ninth over 10,000 endnotes (if we go down this route there's a lot of inconsistencies), but do we at least want to remove the superscripts and replace them the explicit edition number? That seems much more clear to me.

2. Occasionally Frazer styles sections in small caps (B-D) below. Do we want to keep that?

Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 11.35.27 AM.png

3. A final very pedantic question. I think I was correct in my assessment on N. F. I believe it stands for "Neue Folge", as can be seen for example in this article. This raise the question, do we want to italicize N.F. and add the German language tag?

Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 19, 2022, 10:07:12 AM3/19/22

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I should clarify point 1. Of course going from "9th" to "Ninth" (or vice versa) is easy, and maybe that should be done, but I meant more standardizing references in general. Even above, Frazer has:

"Taboo", Encyclopedia Britannica 9, xxiii, 17

"Taboo" in the Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. xxiii (1888) pp. 15 sqq.

Encyclopedia Britannica, Ninth Edition, s.v. "Caves, v. 265 sqq.

I think it would be too difficult to standardize references like those. I suppose it is worth asking though whether we want italics/latin tags on s.v. and sqq.

Alex Cabal

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Mar 20, 2022, 7:25:56 PM3/20/22

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I think it makes sense to expand the superscripts to "nth edition"
because it's not obvious what they mean otherwise.

I don't know what B-D means so I can't say if we want to keep small
caps. It depends on what it means.

You can italicize N.F. since it seems to be an uncommon academic
abbreviation. But the other ones are fairly common and well understood
so they don't need italics.

On 3/19/22 6:56 AM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> I have a few more (hopefully, but probably not, final) questions about
> the endnotes:
>
> 1. Frazer occasionally uses superscript in the endnotes, as seen here,

> Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 11.29.59 AM.png
> I've figured out that this refers to the edition, because in other
> references Frazer explicitly spells it out, as the 9th edition,

> Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 11.31.08 AM.png
>
> To complicate matters, in later volumes he sometimes spells it out as
> "ninth",

> Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 11.42.28 AM.png
> I don't know if it's feasible to standardize things like 9th vs. ninth

> over 10,000 endnotes (if we go down this route there's /a lot/ of

> inconsistencies), but do we at least want to remove the superscripts and
> replace them the explicit edition number? That seems much more clear to me.
>
> 2. Occasionally Frazer styles sections in small caps (B-D) below. Do we
> want to keep that?

> Screen Shot 2022-03-19 at 11.35.27 AM.png
>
> 3. A final very pedantic question. I think I was correct in my
> assessment on N. F. I believe it stands for "Neue Folge", as can be seen
> for example in this article

> <https://pep-web.org/browse/document/ZBPA.001.0047A>. This raise the

> question, do we want to italicize N.F. and add the German language tag?
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 8:23:01 PM UTC+1 Vince wrote:
>
> 1. Yes, I have the same situation (book names with “Mahomet,” e.g.).
> 2. Interesting. Given that’s the actual name (Brill and Jstor have
> issues that can be viewed), I think you’ll have to just create a
> ignore file entry for it.
>
>
>> On Mar 17, 2022, at 1:53 PM, Lukas Bystricky
>> <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Vince, I think it's not too difficult in this case to
>> expand. At least in the volume I'm working on there's not many and
>> no real research looks needed to figure out what everything is.
>> I'll discuss privately with Asher.
>>
>> I have another couple questions:
>> 1. I ran modernize-spelling on the endnotes file and it changed
>> some words in the titles of works. I suppose these need to be
>> reverted?
>> 2. Lint is giving me the error t-033 (Space after dash). It's
>> apparently not happy with something like "Bijdragen tot de Taal-
>> Land- en Volkenkunde van Nederlandsch-Indië" (there's a lot of
>> Dutch references like this). Note those are hyphens, so I think
>> this is similar to the situation with "pre- " in 8.7.7.3

>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.3/8-typography#8.7.7.3>.
>> The wikipedia page
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijdragen_tot_de_Taal-,_Land-_en_Volkenkunde>

>> has the hyphens there (with a comma after Taal-), so I think we
>> want to keep them. How can I make lint happy here?
>> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 6:31:28 PM UTC+1 Vince wrote:
>>
>> 1. Yes. Put an id on the paragraph where the link should go,
>> and link to that. (See the manual for the specifics about
>> naming the id.)

>> 2. These/can/ be expanded, but do not have to be. (I spent a

>> few months researching and expanding all of the ones in
>> Gibbon.) If you expand them, they should be in an editorial
>> commit.
>> 3. Yes; same for ibid.
>> 4. I just asked about this a couple of weeks ago, and Alex
>> said leave the periods in, and no Latin tags.
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 17, 2022, at 12:12 PM, Lukas Bystricky
>>> <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I also had some questions about endnotes.
>>>

>>> 1. Frazer has some references to previous volumes in the

>>> Golden Bough, e.g.
>>>
>>> See The Magic Art and the Evolution of Kings, vol. i. pp. 332
>>> sqq., 373 sqq.
>>> Now of course the page numbers and volumes aren't used, so
>>> should we replace it with something like

>>> See/The Magic Art and Evolution of Kings,/Chapter x, Section y,

>>> maybe with a one-way link to the relevant text?
>>> 2. Frazer abbreviates the titles of some works, e.g.
>>> Virgil, Aen. i. 179, 448. Presumably this was done for
>>> printing reasons. Should these be expanded to (in this case

>>> to Virgil, /Aeneid/)? It would help keep each endnote more

>>> self-contained.
>>> 3. Speaking of being self-contained, is it ok to leave
>>> in op. cit. when the work referenced is given earlier in the
>>> same endnote?
>>> 4. op. cit. and loc. cit are both in MW without
>>> periods. Should we remove the italics and periods?
>

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Lukas Bystricky

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May 16, 2022, 12:12:43 PM5/16/22

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Back to working on The Golden Bough!

I'm working now on volumes 5 and 6, which Frazier calls Part IV: Volumes 1 and 2: Adonis, Attis, Osiris.

The divisions Frazier uses are as follows:

Book 1 Adonis

Chapter

Section

Book 2 Attis

Chapter

Section

Book 3 Osiris

Chapter

Section

How do we want to structure this in our ebook? I see two options:

1. Keep calling this whole thing volume 4. In this case we would have:

volume-4: Adonis, Attis, Osiris

book-4-1: Adonis

chapter-4-1-x (with section as subchapters)

book-4-2: Attis

chapter-4-2-x

book-4-3 Osiris

chapter-4-3-x

2. Make Adonis, Attis and Osiris their own books:

book-4: Adonis

chapter-4-x

book-5: Attis

chapter-5-x

book-6: Osiris

chapter-6-x

I suspect the first option will be preferred, but the second option keeps the book-chapter-section structure we used in the first two volumes. For case 1, we'd have the division volume-book-chapter-section. Does that pose any issues? I believe this is the only volume where Frazier uses this kind of division.

Asher Smith

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May 16, 2022, 12:30:53 PM5/16/22

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Some additional context: for the other sections, we've just had "book-x" for the large divisions and "chapter-x-y" or "preface-x-y" for the chapters within. If we go for the first option, we would rename all the others to "volume-x" and "chapter-x-y" and this section would get "volume-x," "book-x-y," and "chapter-x-y-z". I prefer this option to artificially creating a division on par with the other divisions.

The only question in my mind is if "volume" is the right word, because this book was published in volumes, and the volumes we're talking about here don't correspond to the volumes that it was published in, so it could get confusing to refer to "volume 3" or something. The other option we could use instead of "volume-x" would be "part-x."

Vince

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May 16, 2022, 12:54:17 PM5/16/22

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If memory serves, you’re ignoring the actual published volumes (x of 12) for purposes of the internal structure?

This is how the various volumes are labled:

Part I—The Magic Art and the Evolution of the Kings (published vol. 1 and 2)

Part II—Taboo and the Perils of the Soul (pub. vol. 3)

Part III—The Dying God (pub. vol 4)

Part IV—Adonis Attis Osiris (pub. vol 5 and 6)

Part V—Spirits of the Corn and of the Wild (pub. vol. 7 and 8)

Part VI—The Scapegoat (pub. vol 9)

Part VII—Balder the Beautiful (pub. vol 10 and 11)

Bibliography/Index (pub. vol 12)

The only difference with Part IV is that instead of just chapters across the volumes, Part IV also has Books, one each for Adonis, Attis, and Osiris, and then chapters within those. IOW, it lists “vol 1 and vol 2”, but that’s just because it’s spread across two of the published volumes. Since you’re not worrying about the published volumes, you don’t need to worry about those volumes, either, since they’re the same.

So I would think, in keeping with the same divisions, the top division is Part, the next division is Chapters for all but Part IV, and Part IV has Books and then Chapters. And obviously all chapters can have subchapters. (It is OK for one Part to have a different number of pieces than the other parts.)

Lukas Bystricky

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May 16, 2022, 1:00:26 PM5/16/22

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Ok that sounds good; "part" is much better than volume, that's even what Frazer himself uses.

Vince

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May 16, 2022, 1:08:34 PM5/16/22

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Exactly; where possible and it makes sense, we want to use the same names they do. The x of 12 printed volumes and the vol 1/2 for several of the parts is just a function of how it was published, which we don’t care about.

Lukas Bystricky

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May 20, 2022, 1:44:53 PM5/20/22

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I'm going through some more of the endnotes and I guess maybe I was a little too hasty in saying that we shouldn't standardize the references. Since we'll have to go through all the references by hand anyways in order to add semantic tags on the books/journals, add language tags, check abbreviations, remove op. cits, etc, it might not be too much additional work to make the references conform to the CMS standards. I know there's at least a couple other projects on the go with lots of references too, so I'm not suggesting that we do that just yet; but I'd be interested in feedback.

Vince

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May 20, 2022, 2:55:32 PM5/20/22

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I am most definitely not standardizing Gibbon’s references. He’s all over the map on how he does them, since most of his endnotes include text as well as references, text around the references, etc.

Lukas Bystricky

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May 20, 2022, 3:32:15 PM5/20/22

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Yeah that's a fair point, there's definitely some of that here, but the majority (or close to it) of the endnotes are either only references, or things like "see [reference 1, reference 2]" which I think wouldn't be too difficult to standardize, aside from the fact there's like 10,000 of them. But since we have to go through them by hand anyways, maybe that's not such a big ask (in this case, though obviously Gibbon is different). It seems like most of them are almost standardized in that they contain the same information (and everything that's needed for CMS citations) so it would be mainly a matter of re-ordering some of that information.

Asher Smith

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May 24, 2022, 3:43:58 AM5/24/22

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I think the fact that there's 10,000 of them does make it a pretty significant endeavour. Apart from the cosmetics of it, what's the benefit of standardising?

Lukas Bystricky

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May 24, 2022, 11:52:34 AM5/24/22

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Yes, it absolutely wouldn't be easy, and I wouldn't even suggest it if not for the fact that we'll have to go through the endnotes by hand anyways. So far I've just been fixing the issues the lint complains about (modernizing Biblical citations, expanding op. cit., etc), but there's still a lot of missing semantics, (journal, book titles, language tags) and some incorrect semantics (I and V marked as Roman numerals instead of abbreviations for instance). Some of that could maybe be automated, but I bet any regex expression would have plenty of exceptions. It seems like standardizing the citations might not be too much extra work on top of that (and could maybe also be partially automated). That was my thinking at least.

In terms of benefits, I think it's roughly the same as standardizing the rest of the book. Certainly most readers wouldn't notice or care, but I imagine that a modern print version of the Golden Bough would have standardized citations.

Lukas Bystricky

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May 24, 2022, 11:56:05 AM5/24/22

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For the record, I don't think this should necessarily become standard practice, but in this particular case it seems like all the information required by CMS is already there so it would mainly be a matter of reordering (i.e little or no research required).

But I also don't think the production should hinge on this issue so if we decide not to go that route I'm also fine with that.

Vince

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May 24, 2022, 3:31:14 PM5/24/22

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You might be surprised; modern editions of Gibbon look almost exactly like the first edition. No one else wants to tackle that job, either. :)

I did a search/replace early on of ł. for l. and č. for c. (and you could add something else for v.) to prevent semanticate from doing exactly that. I left them there until I was completely finished with the endnotes, then did another replace at the end to put them back.

Alex Cabal

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May 24, 2022, 3:32:31 PM5/24/22

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Might be safer to replace with something more unusual like {{l.}} to
prevent accidental changes to rare but not unheard of characters.

On 5/24/22 2:31 PM, Vince wrote:
> You might be surprised; modern editions of Gibbon look almost exactly
> like the first edition. No one else wants to tackle that job, either. :)
>
> I did a search/replace early on of ł. for l. and č. for c. (and you
> could add something else for v.) to prevent semanticate from doing
> exactly that. I left them there until I was completely finished with the
> endnotes, then did another replace at the end to put them back.
>
>
>> On May 24, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Lukas Bystricky

>> <lukasby...@gmail.com <mailto:lukasby...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, it absolutely wouldn't be easy, and I wouldn't even suggest it if
>> not for the fact that we'll have to go through the endnotes by hand
>> anyways. So far I've just been fixing the issues the lint complains
>> about (modernizing Biblical citations, expanding op. cit., etc), but
>> there's still a lot of missing semantics, (journal, book titles,
>> language tags) and some incorrect semantics (I and V marked as Roman
>> numerals instead of abbreviations for instance). Some of that could
>> maybe be automated, but I bet any regex expression would have plenty
>> of exceptions. It seems like standardizing the citations might not be
>> too much extra work on top of that (and could maybe also

>> be/partially/automated). That was my thinking at least.

>>
>> In terms of benefits, I think it's roughly the same as standardizing
>> the rest of the book. Certainly most readers wouldn't notice or care,
>> but I imagine that a modern print version of the Golden Bough would
>> have standardized citations.
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 9:43:58 AM UTC+2 Asher Smith wrote:
>>
>> I think the fact that there's 10,000 of them does make it a pretty
>> significant endeavour. Apart from the cosmetics of it, what's the
>> benefit of standardising?
>>
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:32:15 PM UTC+1lukasby...@gmail.comwrote:
>>
>> Yeah that's a fair point, there's definitely some of that
>> here, but the majority (or close to it) of the endnotes are
>> either only references, or things like "see [reference 1,
>> reference 2]" which I think wouldn't be too difficult to
>> standardize, aside from the fact there's like 10,000 of them.
>> But since we have to go through them by hand anyways, maybe
>> that's not such a big ask (in this case, though obviously
>> Gibbon is different). It seems like most of them

>> are/almost/ standardized in that they contain the same

>> information (and everything that's needed for CMS citations)
>> so it would be mainly a matter of re-ordering some of that
>> information.
>>
>> On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 8:55:32 PM UTC+2 Vince wrote:
>>

>> I am most definitely/not/standardizing Gibbon’s

>> references. He’s all over the map on how he does them,
>> since most of his endnotes include text as well as
>> references, text around the references, etc.
>>
>>
>>> On May 20, 2022, at 12:44 PM, Lukas Bystricky
>>> <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm going through some more of the endnotes and I guess
>>> maybe I was a little too hasty in saying that we
>>> shouldn't standardize the references. Since we'll have to
>>> go through all the references by hand anyways in order to
>>> add semantic tags on the books/journals, add language
>>> tags, check abbreviations, remove op. cits, etc, it might

>>> not be too much/additional/ work to make the references

>>> conform to the CMS standards. I know there's at least a
>>> couple other projects on the go with lots of references
>>> too, so I'm not suggesting that we do that just yet; but
>>> I'd be interested in feedback.
>

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Lukas Bystricky

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May 30, 2022, 4:01:49 PM5/30/22

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So I made a bit of a mistake. After spending several hours changing the "see page ..." to proper links (this had to be done manually for almost 200 links), I stupidly ran typogrify before committing. I guess I hadn't run it in a while and it ended up making a whole heap of small non-editorial changes. Would it be ok to leave it like that? It would be a major hassle to have to undo or (or split up if that's possible) that commit now, but it would obviously be much more of a hassle to rebase it later on, so I thought I'd get a ruling on it now. For what it's worth, there will be several editorial commits made of the same type (one for each part).

Vince Rice

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May 30, 2022, 5:49:39 PM5/30/22

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Sorry, no mixing of editorial and non-editorial changes.

> On May 30, 2022, at 3:01 PM, Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So I made a bit of a mistake. After spending several hours changing the "see page ..." to proper links (this had to be done manually for almost 200 links), I stupidly ran typogrify before committing. I guess I hadn't run it in a while and it ended up making a whole heap of small non-editorial changes. Would it be ok to leave it like that? It would be a major hassle to have to undo or (or split up if that's possible) that commit now, but it would obviously be much more of a hassle to rebase it later on, so I thought I'd get a ruling on it now. For what it's worth, there will be several editorial commits made of the same type (one for each part).

David Grigg

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May 30, 2022, 7:33:38 PM5/30/22

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I might also be in strife with Boswell then for similar reasons.

I have yet to commit my similar “see page XXX” changes but I can’t at all be sure I haven’t made non-editorial changes while going through that arduous process. However, I’ve been thinking recently that what I’ve been doing lacks systematic rigour and have been tempted to go back to the last commit anyway. A lot of work to undo, unfortunately, but perhaps I can record at least where I have put in destination anchors.

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Vince

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May 31, 2022, 12:04:21 AM5/31/22

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Yes, I’m hoping upon hope I’ve been successful in keeping them separate all the way through Gibbon, but I live in fear I’ve missed some.

For the last round of proofreading, I kept two commits, one for editorial, one for proofreading, and just did a rebase interactive when I needed to use the prior commit. I also have a long list of notes of editorial changes I used to keep track of what needed to be done after whatever current non-editorial commit was in-progress.

Robin Whittleton

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May 31, 2022, 12:07:31 AM5/31/22

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If I were you I’d grab a git gui (I’m partial to Git Fork if that’s available on your platform but any will do) and go through staging individual lines or chunks to build the editorial commit. A couple of hundred changes will take an hour or two, but it’s not particularly difficult.

On 30 May 2022, at 22:01, Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:

So I made a bit of a mistake. After spending several hours changing the "see page ..." to proper links (this had to be done manually for almost 200 links), I stupidly ran typogrify before committing. I guess I hadn't run it in a while and it ended up making a whole heap of small non-editorial changes. Would it be ok to leave it like that? It would be a major hassle to have to undo or (or split up if that's possible) that commit now, but it would obviously be much more of a hassle to rebase it later on, so I thought I'd get a ruling on it now. For what it's worth, there will be several editorial commits made of the same type (one for each part).

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Vince

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May 31, 2022, 12:17:46 AM5/31/22

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That can also be done using command-line via git add -p, and I haven’t found it that difficult. (Of course, I haven’t had that many chunks to navigate through.)

Robin Whittleton

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May 31, 2022, 12:31:31 AM5/31/22

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Many things are trivially done from the command line using git, but I draw the line at building a coherent stage of chunks 🙂

On 31 May 2022, at 06:17, Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org> wrote:

That can also be done using command-line via git add -p, and I haven’t found it that difficult. (Of course, I haven’t had that many chunks to navigate through.)

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Lukas Bystricky

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May 31, 2022, 1:26:50 AM5/31/22

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Ok, I've been planning to get a git gui for some time now anyways, so I think this pushed me over the edge. It'll be a good training exercise.

Asher Smith

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May 31, 2022, 2:38:25 AM5/31/22

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For what it's worth, Atom lets you undo a commit, selectively unstage snippets, and then recommit really easily. It's saved me before.

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Matt Chan

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May 31, 2022, 10:42:11 AM5/31/22

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Highly recommend using a GUI to do more complicated slicing and dicing of previous commits, like cherry-picking and what not... It just prevents shooting yourself in the foot with the wrong commands or flags in the CLI. I think Sublime Merge is great but it's technically not free, I've used GitKraken for a bit and it's very good as well. https://ohshitgit.com/ is always a good reference.

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Lukas Bystricky

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Jul 31, 2022, 6:03:40 AM7/31/22

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So I'm going through the changes made by modernize-spelling. As discussed above, I have to revert the changes made to the spellings of book, journal, and article titles. Some of these are obvious, like reverting "Hindu" back to "Hindoo". Most of the cases though would be just adding back a hyphen, for example reverting "Folk-lore" to "Folklore". It's a bit unclear to me the benefit of reverting those, especially since Frazer himself wasn't always consistent, especially between volumes. For example (there's several) there's the book "Popular Religion and Folklore of Northern India ", which he also refers to as "Popular Religion and Folk-lore of Northern India". My suggestion would be to revert spelling changes, but not hyphens/capitalizations. Does that sound reasonable?

Vince Rice

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Jul 31, 2022, 9:30:32 AM7/31/22

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I would say the book titles should be the actual book titles. If the title is “Folk-lore” then it should be Folk-Lore; if it’s “Folklore” then it should be Folklore. I corrected hundreds instances of incorrect titles in Gibbon.

On Jul 31, 2022, at 5:03 AM, Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:

So I'm going through the changes made by modernize-spelling. As discussed above, I have to revert the changes made to the spellings of book, journal, and article titles. Some of these are obvious, like reverting "Hindu" back to "Hindoo". Most of the cases though would be just adding back a hyphen, for example reverting "Folk-lore" to "Folklore". It's a bit unclear to me the benefit of reverting those, especially since Frazer himself wasn't always consistent, especially between volumes. For example (there's several) there's the book "Popular Religion and Folklore of Northern India ", which he also refers to as "Popular Religion and Folk-lore of Northern India". My suggestion would be to revert spelling changes, but not hyphens/capitalizations. Does that sound reasonable?

Lukas Bystricky

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Jul 31, 2022, 2:59:00 PM7/31/22

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That was my initial thought too, but like I said, Frazer himself is inconsistent. Compare

Screen Shot 2022-07-31 at 8.49.07 PM.png

to

Screen Shot 2022-07-31 at 8.53.10 PM.png

It's the same year, so the same edition, in one case "Folk-lore of Northern India", in the other "Folklore of Northern India". Should this not be standardized?

There's several other instances of inconsistent capitalization, I assume I should correctly titlecase those (something lint will complain about I think)?

Vince

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Jul 31, 2022, 6:28:56 PM7/31/22

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Yes, IMO it should be standardized, which is what I said. :) But it should be standardized to what the title actually is, not what he might have called it. As I said, Gibbon called books by sometimes three or four different titles: I standardized them to the actual title (or in some cases a consistent shorter version).

On Jul 31, 2022, at 1:59 PM, Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:

That was my initial thought too, but like I said, Frazer himself is inconsistent. Compare

<Screen Shot 2022-07-31 at 8.49.07 PM.png>

to

Vince

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Aug 1, 2022, 12:03:21 AM8/1/22

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Sorry, missed the last question. Yes, if they’re English publications, they should be propercased according to normal SE rules (same as our chapter titles). If they’re non-English titles (Latin, French, etc.), the publication should have an xml:lang tag it on along with the publication tag, and it should be capitalized according to the rules for that language. (See CMS, e.g.)

Lukas Bystricky

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Aug 1, 2022, 6:06:11 AM8/1/22

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Oh boy, that's going to be quite some work, looking up the names of all these old references – without really looking I've found quite a few inconsistencies.

Should the publishing location be modernized? I have lots and lots of Leipsic and Frankfort...

Vince Rice

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Aug 1, 2022, 10:04:53 AM8/1/22

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We’ll, I’m not the boss, just offering an experienced opinion. :) And yes, it’s a lot of work; I spent six months just on expanding and standardizing the 10k references in Gibbon’s endnotes.

To standardize, I extracted all the publication tags, sorted and deduped them, then reviewed them looking for ones that were the same but different. I had to do it twice, the first time to put language tags on, the second to correct the capitalization.

On Aug 1, 2022, at 5:06 AM, Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com> wrote:

Oh boy, that's going to be quite some work, looking up the names of all these old references – without really looking I've found quite a few inconsistencies.

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Alex Cabal

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Aug 1, 2022, 10:06:29 AM8/1/22

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Leipsic at least should be handled by modernize-spelling already. You
can update Frankfurt.

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Vince Rice

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Aug 1, 2022, 10:13:07 AM8/1/22

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So, this came up during Robin’s review. I treated all the information about the publications the same, i.e. title, location, date, editor, etc., and did not allow changes to any of it, since it’s what was on the book itself. You want us to change the location?

> On Aug 1, 2022, at 9:06 AM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Leipsic at least should be handled by modernize-spelling already. You can update Frankfurt.

Alex Cabal

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Aug 1, 2022, 10:18:34 AM8/1/22

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As in, where it was published? Sure; sound alike spelling updates to
place names are common.

Vince

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Aug 1, 2022, 12:29:48 PM8/1/22

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Yes, I am obviously aware of that, but just like we don’t change spellings in the book titles themselves, I didn’t change anything that was part of the title page, either. I’ll make the changes to Leipsic.

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 7, 2022, 10:25:19 AM8/7/22

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Sorry, taken a while to getting around to the second review. Honestly, someone’s going to need to do another full proof-read to find much more, but on a second scan I picked up:

- se-ignore: add specific endnote references where appropriate

endnotes
- 5168 and 5173: Annotatation should be Annotation?
- 5790 and 5804: Annotat was expanded in 5168/5173 so should it also be expanded here?
- 5829: Valentiniins should be Valentinians

After those it’ll be over to you Alex. Unless anyone else also wants to do a scan?

-Robin

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Robin Whittleton

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Aug 7, 2022, 12:13:20 PM8/7/22

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Apologies, wrong thread! 🤦‍♂️

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Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 29, 2024, 3:14:31 AMMar 29

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Seeing David's post here, I thought I could address the progress (or lack thereof) on this project. Asher and I have split the project so I'll talk about my part.

In brief, the status is that the entire book had been built, including correct sectioning (as of the standards when it was built) and blockquotes. It's not an especially complicated book in terms of bespoke formatting, tables, strange structures, etc. As with Boswell and Gibbon there are lots and lots of endnotes (around 10,000). Those have been linked, but not renumbered. The biggest remaining tasks are (1) proofreading and (2) correcting the endnotes. There are 7 total books, split into 11 volumes. For (1) I've taken on 6 of the 11 volumes and have fully proofread two of them, minus the endnotes. The transcription is very good, but proofreading is still tedious. The length is already an issue (word count is 1.7 million words), although splitting it between two people makes it somewhat manageable. There are numerous words (hundreds) that need to be modernized, or potentially modernized. I've been keeping a list of those, and I've made a couple commits, but there's no doubt plenty more. There's also the tagging of foreign words, which is complicated because Frazer uses words from dozens of very obscure languages from all over the world (those are also in the linked spreadsheet). I have the sense too that he's not being completely consistent with the spelling of some of the foreign words, so that may also need to be looked at. The largest issue though for me is that although the book has some very interesting parts, they're interspersed with long sections of uninteresting text. Basically for every point Frazer makes, he takes dozens of examples from all over the Earth to prove it, when I would think one or two might suffice. The book has had a very large cultural impact, but I can't help thinking that the vast majority of people would have read the abridged version (just an observation–I know SE's policy on abridgements).

For (2) the endnotes need to be semanticated, which will be tedious. I think a larger and more annoying issue will be replacing all the "see page ##" type notes with proper anchors. There are a lot them (hundreds?) and I can't think of an easy way to automate that. There are also lots of op. cits. and loc. cits. that need to be replaced.

Anyways in conclusion, like David, I'm near the point of giving this up; at the very least I'd be very happy to pass on some of my remaining volumes/tasks if anyone wishes to take them on. A lot of work has been done so it's probably not worth abandoning entirely. And hey, someone else might well find it more interesting than me. Like I said there are a lot of very interesting ideas in it. The GitHub repo is here if anyone wants to look at it.

David at Standard Ebooks

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Mar 29, 2024, 5:48:43 AMMar 29

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Lucas,

For what it's worth, the way I've dealt with the "see page ###" issue is to insert anchors into the digital text at the exact point matching each page turn of the physical book (doing so is quicker than you'd think), so that I can replace, e.g. “ante, ii, 123”, with “See <a href=“part-2.xhtml#II-page-123”>here</a>”

I'm not simply targeting paragraphs with ids, because Boswell's paragraphs sometimes run over many pages without a break. So I'm also putting in anchors like this: <a id="II-page-123"/> into the body of paragraphs.

David / Melbourne, Australia

Asher Smith

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Mar 29, 2024, 4:04:47 PMMar 29

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To add my two cents to this: other commitments in my personal life has lead to me being unable to spend as much time on this project as I might like, but I’m still interested in the project and want to get back to it someday soon. I’m currently finishing up another project (Polynesian Mythology), and will return to this. I think that we knew when we got into it that it would be a thing we worked on between other projects and it would take a long time, and I’m neither willing to commit to a timeline nor to give up on it yet.

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Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 29, 2024, 7:16:22 PMMar 29

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Good to hear Asher. I hope I change my mind and decide to get back to it eventually, but as of now I feel like it would be more out of a sense of obligation rather than interest or enjoyment. Certainly whatever I decide shouldn't torpedo the whole project.

David, that's an interesting idea and definitely much better than anything I've come up with so far. Once this books gets some more work on it, we (i.e. Alex and whoever is working on the book) will have to decide on whether or not that approach makes sense for this book, but I think it would be a lot of help if the page references could be at least partially automated like that.

Alex Cabal

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Mar 29, 2024, 9:41:49 PMMar 29

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Like I said to David, it's up to you guys how you want to proceed. If
both of you want to drop it, then maybe someone can pick it up if
there's interest. Or maybe Asher is interested in continuing alone or
with a new partner.

I do think that if it's dropped entirely with nobody to pick it up, then
after some time we won't be able to pick it up again because the project
would have gone stale. Then the work will be basically lost.

On 3/29/24 6:16 PM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> Good to hear Asher. I hope I change my mind and decide to get back to it
> eventually, but as of now I feel like it would be more out of a sense of
> obligation rather than interest or enjoyment. Certainly whatever I
> decide shouldn't torpedo the whole project.
>
> David, that's an interesting idea and definitely much better than
> anything I've come up with so far. Once this books gets some more work
> on it, we (i.e. Alex and whoever is working on the book) will have to
> decide on whether or not that approach makes sense for this book, but I
> think it would be a lot of help if the page references could be at least
> partially automated like that.
>
> On Friday, March 29, 2024 at 9:04:47 PM UTC+1 Asher Smith wrote:
>
> To add my two cents to this: other commitments in my personal life
> has lead to me being unable to spend as much time on this project as
> I might like, but I’m still interested in the project and want to
> get back to it someday soon. I’m currently finishing up another
> project (Polynesian Mythology), and will return to this. I think
> that we knew when we got into it that it would be a thing we worked
> on between other projects and it would take a long time, and I’m
> neither willing to commit to a timeline nor to give up on it yet.
>
>> On 29 Mar 2024, at 07:14, Lukas Bystricky <lukasby...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Seeing David's post here

>> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/xjolhNxoEic>, I

>> thought I could address the progress (or lack thereof) on this
>> project. Asher and I have split the project so I'll talk about my
>> part.
>>
>> In brief, the status is that the entire book had been built,
>> including correct sectioning (as of the standards when it was
>> built) and blockquotes. It's not an especially complicated book in
>> terms of bespoke formatting, tables, strange structures, etc. As
>> with Boswell and Gibbon there are lots and lots of endnotes
>> (around 10,000). Those have been linked, but not renumbered. The
>> biggest remaining tasks are (1) proofreading and (2) correcting
>> the endnotes. There are 7 total books, split into 11 volumes. For
>> (1) I've taken on 6 of the 11 volumes and have fully proofread two
>> of them, minus the endnotes. The transcription is very good, but
>> proofreading is still tedious. The length is already an issue
>> (word count is 1.7 million words), although splitting it between
>> two people makes it somewhat manageable. There are numerous words
>> (hundreds) that need to be modernized, or potentially modernized.
>> I've been keeping a list of those

>> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11d6TlWfgONjDd98EChus1FKPWI7Brxqf0KCzQBUUNLM/edit?usp=sharing>, and I've made a couple commits, but there's no doubt plenty more. There's also the tagging of foreign words, which is complicated because Frazer uses words from dozens of very obscure languages from all over the world (those are also in the linked spreadsheet). I have the sense too that he's not being completely consistent with the spelling of some of the foreign words, so that may also need to be looked at. The largest issue though for me is that although the book has some very interesting parts, they're interspersed with long sections of uninteresting text. Basically for every point Frazer makes, he takes dozens of examples from all over the Earth to prove it, when I would think one or two might suffice. The book has had a very large cultural impact, but I can't help thinking that the vast majority of people would have read the abridged version (just an observation–I know SE's policy on abridgements).

>>
>> For (2) the endnotes need to be semanticated, which will be
>> tedious. I think a larger and more annoying issue will be
>> replacing all the "see page ##" type notes with proper anchors.
>> There are a lot them (hundreds?) and I can't think of an easy way
>> to automate that. There are also lots of op. cits. and loc. cits.
>> that need to be replaced.
>>
>> Anyways in conclusion, like David, I'm near the point of giving
>> this up; at the very least I'd be very happy to pass on some of my
>> remaining volumes/tasks if anyone wishes to take them on. A lot of
>> work has been done so it's probably not worth abandoning entirely.
>> And hey, someone else might well find it more interesting than me.
>> Like I said there are a lot of very interesting ideas in it. The
>> GitHub repo is here

>> <https://github.com/lukasbystricky/james-george-frazer_the-golden-bough-new> if anyone wants to look at it.

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/65CAFEFD-4932-4475-8676-9F75426CFCA2%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/65CAFEFD-4932-4475-8676-9F75426CFCA2%40letterboxes.org>.

>> >
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>> from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
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>>
>>
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Lukas Bystricky

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Mar 30, 2024, 4:46:22 AMMar 30

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Well I don't think I'll be working much on it for the foreseeable future so if someone wants to pick up some of my volumes I'd be happy to pass that off.

Aside from the page references and other endnote related things, I don't think the remaining tasks are especially challenging. The transcription is good, and there's little or no parts that would require any advanced CSS. I'd actually come up with a workflow for proofreading that I found worked quite well, and I wrote some scripts to add the language tags and modernize some spellings. So if anyone wants to try out one volume it might not be that much work (aside from the endnotes–that will be a lot of work, but it can probably be left until after all the volumes have been proofread).

I feel like I was unduly harsh about the book earlier. I still think it's a worthwhile production, and I can definitely see the appeal. Hope to see it finished one day!

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