Re: [standardebooks] [First Project] The Gold Bat by PG Wodehouse

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Alex Cabal

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May 26, 2023, 12:56:00 AM5/26/23

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Great, that one would be a good start.

You can use those scans, as the date on them is 1904. Wodehouse novels
were revised and remixed often so don't be surprised if the page scans
differ significantly from what PG has. I would say that you can ignore
any difference that's not an obvious typo.

Make sure to read the Standard Ebooks Manual of Style before starting,
as you won't know what to fix if you haven't read the standards. In
particular, please closely review the semantics, high level patterns,
and typography sections:

https://standardebooks.org/manual

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns

https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography

The step by step guide will take you from start to finish:

https://standardebooks.org/contribute/producing-an-ebook-step-by-step

Please email often if you have any questions at all. Our standards are
well-established so there is probably already a standard for formatting
whatever problem you've encountered.

When you're ready, email back with a link to your Github repository so
that I can mark you as having started.

Have fun! :)

On 5/25/23 7:17 PM, Joseph Montanaro wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I'd like to take a swing at The Gold Bat by PG Wodehouse. It's currently
> on the Wanted listed, and available on Gutenberg, so I'm assuming there
> are no questions about its being in the public domain. Gutenberg link is
> here: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/6879
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/6879>
>
> I'm a little unsure about page scans. The only scans I've been able to
> find are at the Internet Archive, here:
> https://archive.org/details/goldbatotherstor0000wode
> <https://archive.org/details/goldbatotherstor0000wode>
>
> Unfortunately that copy isn't just The Gold Bat, it's a collection that
> also includes The Head of Kay's and The White Feather. Are there any
> concerns with using a collection like this as a source for just one of
> its component stories?
>
> -Joseph Montanaro
>
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Joseph Montanaro

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May 26, 2023, 12:01:16 PM5/26/23

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Ok, great! Here's my repo: https://github.com/jfmontanaro/p-g-wodehouse_the-gold-bat

I have a question already: If you look at commit b42e2e, src/epub/text/chapter-7.xhtml, I've removed the italics on "papier- mâche" (the scans confirm it is italicized in the print version as well.) That seems fair to me since the term has been adopted into English at this point, but I'm wondering about the spelling. I'm used to seeing it spelled "paper-mache," without the "i" and with no diacritics, but Merriam-Webster lists it under both "paper-mache" and "papier-mâché." What concerns me is that the original spelling matches neither of these. Would it be better to correct the spelling to match one of those found in the dictionary? If so, which one?

Robin Whittleton

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May 26, 2023, 12:03:11 PM5/26/23

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Our default is papier-mâché. modernize-spelling should fix that for you later.in the process.

-Robin

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Alex Cabal

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May 26, 2023, 12:13:20 PM5/26/23

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David, can you manage this with Emma reviewing?

> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/4-semantics>
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> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/7-high-level-structural-patterns>
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> https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>
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Joseph Montanaro

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May 26, 2023, 2:27:35 PM5/26/23

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Next question: In src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml, line 22, Wodehouse refers to a sports team called the "Wandering Zephyrs", first in full and then by the abbreviation "The W.Z.'s." I think this should be wrapped in <abbr epub:type="z3998:initialism"></abbr>, but should the " 's " go inside or outside the <abbr>? My intuition is to leave it outside, since it isn't properly part of the initialism, but I don't know if that might cause problems for screen readers.

Joseph Montanaro

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May 27, 2023, 9:26:31 AM5/27/23

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Another question: SEMOS 8.2.1 mentions that using both italics and quotes is usually not necessary. However, the source has a couple of instances where it does this - one example is in src/epub/text/chapter-4.xhtml, line 71, "With the compliments of the League." I'm not sure whether I should modify this or not. I have a vague sense that the combination of italics and quotes is actually doing something and wouldn't quite be the same with either one separately, but I can't put my finger on why.

Should I leave it as-is? If not, should I keep the italics or the quotes?

Weijia Cheng

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May 27, 2023, 12:53:39 PM5/27/23

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With questions like this, it's helpful to post a link to where in the original scans this appears, so that we can see what is going on in context :)

Joseph Montanaro

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May 27, 2023, 8:43:50 PM5/27/23

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Got it, thanks!

Here's a link to the page with one of the passages I'm talking about: https://archive.org/details/goldbatotherstor0000wode/page/n33/mode/2up Unfortunately, I'm currently "borrowing" the book so it seems that no one else can view it until my borrow expires.

I'd be happy to take a screenshot of the relevant section and post it here, but is that permissible? Obviously the book itself is PD but do the page scans have their own separate copyright?

David at Standard Ebooks

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May 27, 2023, 9:36:42 PM5/27/23

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Sorry, I have been out of action the last few days.

Alex, I can manage, but due to some family things happening my responses are likely to be even more delayed and erratic than usual.

Joseph: I think a screenshot, particularly if it's only part of one page, would be absolutely fine to share here ("fair use").

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Emma Sweeney

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May 27, 2023, 11:46:20 PM5/27/23

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I can review.

Emma

Joseph Montanaro

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May 28, 2023, 9:01:09 AM5/28/23

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Ok, the passage to which I've been referring is attached as "example-a."

There's also a passage later on that uses italics for just part of a quotation (attached as "example-b). That one looks to be just using the italics for emphasis like you might do anywhere, but I thought I'd mention it since both passages are describing written notes from the same sender.

example-a.png

example-b.png

Weijia Cheng

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May 28, 2023, 9:21:58 AM5/28/23

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Given that context, those both look like emphasis to me. It seems maybe the first quote might be indicating how the written card in the story had some emphasized text, or perhaps like the second quote it indicates that those words on the card are particularly important. I think what we're mostly trying to avoid is having all of the quotes be italicized and quoted, without any semantic meaning, which is a formatting choice you see in some old books.

Joseph Montanaro

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May 28, 2023, 5:20:03 PM5/28/23

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Ok, thanks! I will leave those italicized then.

Moving on, I'm starting to look for a suitable cover image. I've found one that's thematically appropriate, but I'm not sure whether the style fits. It's here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rugby_pioneers/399613173/in/photostream/

Obviously it would take some work to establish the copyright status, but before I sink a bunch of time into that I'd like to know whether it would even be considered a candidate.

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David at Standard Ebooks

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May 28, 2023, 6:57:36 PM5/28/23

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Yes, that’s our style. Sometimes we accept watercolours if it’s not obvious that they aren’t oils. This one is too obviously not an oil painting, sorry.

On 29 May 2023 at 7:41 AM +1000, Norman Walz <ncwm...@gmail.com>, wrote:

I'm still learning here, but I think the image has to come from an oil painting.

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Alex Cabal

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May 29, 2023, 12:38:17 AM5/29/23

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`'s` can go outside of `<abbr>`, correct

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> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/latest/8-typography>>
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Joseph Montanaro

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May 30, 2023, 5:35:43 PM5/30/23

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I've been looking high and low for a suitable cover image - ideally I'd like a painting of a foobtall (i.e. rugby, in this case) match, but there aren't really any from the period that SE covers tend to come from. Cricket does a little better, but all the cricket-related paintings I can find are too obviously about cricket to serve. (Admittedly the gold bat mentioned in the title is a miniature cricket-bat, but no actual cricket is played during the course of the story - only football.)

So far, the only thing I've found that might possibly do as a cover is "Soap Bubbles" by Thomas Couture https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436030. Unfortunately its relationship to the text is a bit tenuous - certainly any number of the characters might conceivably spend time daydreaming when they're supposed to be studying, and some events that are central to the plot take place in boys' "studies," but that's about it.

On the other hand, it's available from the Met under the Open Access policy so as long as it could be considered thematically appropriate we should be good.

Alex Cabal

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May 30, 2023, 5:37:24 PM5/30/23

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I don't think the costume fits the time period very well. Wodehouse can
be tough for cover art because the topics he writes about aren't really
common painting subjects. Paintings like landscapes tend to work well,
or portraits in period-appropriate costume, or gothic type buildings or
castles that could be fancy schoolhouses, manors, etc.

On 5/30/23 4:35 PM, Joseph Montanaro wrote:
> I've been looking high and low for a suitable cover image - ideally I'd
> like a painting of a foobtall (i.e. rugby, in this case) match, but
> there aren't really any from the period that SE covers tend to come
> from. Cricket does a little better, but all the cricket-related
> paintings I can find are too obviously about cricket to serve.
> (Admittedly the gold bat mentioned in the title is a miniature
> cricket-bat, but no actual cricket is played during the course of the
> story - only football.)
>

> So far, the only thing I've found that /might/ possibly do as a cover is

> "Soap Bubbles" by Thomas Couture
> https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436030

> <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/436030>. Unfortunately

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Bob R. Kenyon

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May 30, 2023, 5:45:27 PM5/30/23

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Yes, I’m having the same issue with Head of Kay’s.

Bob

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Joseph Montanaro

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Jun 7, 2023, 11:10:08 AM6/7/23

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Okay, I have another candidate: The Villa Loredan, but Francesco Guardi. The buildings look vaguely like they could belong to a British boys' school to me, so with the right crop I think it could work.

The costumes are a bit period-inappropriate again, but the figures are much smaller and less central to the painting than the other one I suggested, so I'm hoping that with the right crop it won't be an issue.

Alex Cabal

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Jun 7, 2023, 7:15:04 PM6/7/23

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I think you're right, the figures are going to be the problem here. If
you can send some proposed crops we can take a look but I think it'll be
tough to get the house in the frame without the people in 200 year old
costumes in the picture.

On 6/7/23 10:10 AM, Joseph Montanaro wrote:
> Okay, I have another candidate: The Villa Loredan

> <https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/438116>, but Francesco

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Joseph Montanaro

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Jun 8, 2023, 12:07:45 PM6/8/23

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Ok, here a a couple of potential crops:

1) My first inclination, and still the one that seems best to me, is to crop it so that the largest figures in outdated costumes are obscured by the title banner:

An alternative possibility would be to simply crop out the larger figures entirely, leaving us with just a couple of tiny ones that can't really be seen clearly:

However, I don't like the way the title banner covers the buildings in this one. It basically just removes the focal point of the painting, and it's hardly better than the blank white image that comes default.

I can't think of another good way to crop this image, although if anybody else has a suggestion I'm all ears. Anyway, let me know if I should keep looking for another image.

Alex Cabal

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Jun 8, 2023, 12:51:49 PM6/8/23

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Yeah, I don't think this is going to work. The figures are just too
outdated and there's no good way to crop them out.

On 6/8/23 11:07 AM, Joseph Montanaro wrote:
> Ok, here a a couple of potential crops:
>
> 1) My first inclination, and still the one that seems best to me, is to
> crop it so that the largest figures in outdated costumes are obscured by
> the title banner:

> proposed_crop_1.jpg.png
>
> An alternative possibility would be to simply crop out the larger
> figures entirely, leaving us with just a couple of tiny ones that can't
> really be seen clearly:
>

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Joseph Montanaro

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Jun 8, 2023, 3:27:47 PM6/8/23

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Ok, I have a new candidate, or rather a set of related candidates.

First is John Constable's 1809 version of "Malvern Hall", here. This one is easy to find reproductions of, e.g. this one, so PD status shouldn't be an issue.

However, that painting would take a bit of work to make suitable for a cover - primarily I'd want to adjust the colors (it looks like it's faded quite dramatically over the years) and upscale (hoping I can get somebody with access to the Topaz Gigapixel AI upscaler to do that for me, if we end up going with this one.)

However, there's a much more close-up version of Malvern Hall that Constable painted some years later - actually, multiple versions. Unfortunately I haven't been able to track down reproductions of these in pre-1928 books, so I'm guessing the verdict will be negative, but I thought I'd check just in case.

One version is here, in the Tate Gallery. It's very clearly marked as "Public Domain," they seem to have no question about that, but the Tate Gallery is not one of the approved collections listed in the SEMOS. Since I'm not sure by exactly what criteria that list was defined, I'm wondering whether the Tate Gallery might also be considered an approved source for public-domain imagery.

Lastly, there's an even nicer version here, at the Clark Art Institute. Unfortunately they don't say anything about the license, but it's pretty clearly the finished work for which the above version is just a study. My suspicion is that this isn't enough to make it acceptable for SE usage, but it's just such a nice image I figured I had to at least try.

Alex Cabal

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Jun 8, 2023, 3:31:12 PM6/8/23

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The first one, at Tate, is in use at
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/p-g-wodehouse/a-damsel-in-distress

You can use the one from Yale however. Yale is on our approved list but
in a version of the manual that is not yet released.

On 6/8/23 2:27 PM, Joseph Montanaro wrote:
> Ok, I have a new candidate, or rather a set of related candidates.
>
> First is John Constable's 1809 version of "Malvern Hall", here

> <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/constable-malvern-hall-warwickshire-n02653>. This one is easy to find reproductions of, e.g. this one <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112113388638&view=1up&seq=25>, so PD status shouldn't be an issue.

>
> However, that painting would take a bit of work to make suitable for a
> cover - primarily I'd want to adjust the colors (it looks like it's
> faded quite dramatically over the years) and upscale (hoping I can get
> somebody with access to the Topaz Gigapixel AI upscaler to do that for
> me, if we end up going with this one.)
>
> However, there's a much more close-up version of Malvern Hall that
> Constable painted some years later - actually, multiple versions.
> Unfortunately I haven't been able to track down reproductions of these
> in pre-1928 books, so I'm guessing the verdict will be negative, but I
> thought I'd check just in case.
>
> One version is here

> <https://collections.britishart.yale.edu/catalog/tms:4937>, in the Tate

> Gallery. It's very clearly marked as "Public Domain," they seem to have
> no question about that, but the Tate Gallery is not one of the approved
> collections listed in the SEMOS. Since I'm not sure by exactly what
> criteria that list was defined, I'm wondering whether the Tate Gallery
> might also be considered an approved source for public-domain imagery.
>
> Lastly, there's an even nicer version here

> <https://www.clarkart.edu/ArtPiece/Detail/Malvern-Hall>, at the Clark

> Art Institute. Unfortunately they don't say anything about the license,
> but it's pretty clearly the finished work for which the above version is
> just a study. My suspicion is that this isn't enough to make it

> acceptable for SE usage, but it's just /such/ a nice image I figured I

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Joseph Montanaro

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Jun 8, 2023, 3:39:47 PM6/8/23

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Right, Yale, sorry. Too many museum names floating through my head.

Ok, great! I will use the Yale version and report back when I'm ready for review.

Joseph Montanaro

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Aug 4, 2023, 2:21:28 PM8/4/23

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Apologies for the long delay on this, life intervened there for a while.

I'm almost ready for review on this, just a couple of questions first:

1. I went ahead and said that it belongs to the collection "Wrykyn" (in content.opf) since there are several Wrykyn stories (in fact my source for page scans was a collection of this, The White Feather, and The Head of Kay's). However I don't know how collections are defined so it might not be appropriate.

2. SEMOS mentions that the author's full name as specified in <meta property="se:name.person.full-name"> should include any titles. According to Wikipedia Wodehouse was a knight, and give his name as Sir Pelham Grenvill Wodehouse. However none of the other Wodehouse books whose source I looked at include the Sir in this property, so I left it out. Should I keep it that way, or put the "Sir" back in?

Other than that, I think everything is ready to go.

Emma Sweeney

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Aug 4, 2023, 9:46:27 PM8/4/23

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Great work! I filed some issues in your repository. Let me know when you are done making changes or if you have any questions.

Emma

Alex Cabal

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Aug 5, 2023, 11:10:09 AM8/5/23

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I don't know if we should categorize this as part of a series. Bruce
what do you think? We already have the school stories collection, is
this just a novel length school story?

You can add "Sir" in, I will add that to the books in the corpus.

On 8/4/23 1:21 PM, Joseph Montanaro wrote:
> Apologies for the long delay on this, life intervened there for a while.
>
> I'm almost ready for review on this, just a couple of questions first:
>
> 1. I went ahead and said that it belongs to the collection "Wrykyn" (in
> content.opf) since there are several Wrykyn stories (in fact my source
> for page scans was a collection of this, The White Feather, and The Head
> of Kay's). However I don't know how collections are defined so it might
> not be appropriate.
>
> 2. SEMOS mentions that the author's full name as specified in <meta
> property="se:name.person.full-name"> should include any titles.
> According to Wikipedia Wodehouse was a knight, and give his name as Sir
> Pelham Grenvill Wodehouse. However none of the other Wodehouse books
> whose source I looked at include the Sir in this property, so I left it
> out. Should I keep it that way, or put the "Sir" back in?
>
> Other than that, I think everything is ready to go.
>
> On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:39:47 PM UTC-7 Joseph Montanaro wrote:
>
> Right, Yale, sorry. Too many museum names floating through my head.
>
> Ok, great! I will use the Yale version and report back when I'm
> ready for review.
>
> On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:31:12 PM UTC-7 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> The first one, at Tate, is in use at

> https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/p-g-wodehouse/a-damsel-in-distress <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/p-g-wodehouse/a-damsel-in-distress>

>
> You can use the one from Yale however. Yale is on our approved
> list but
> in a version of the manual that is not yet released.
>
> On 6/8/23 2:27 PM, Joseph Montanaro wrote:
> > Ok, I have a new candidate, or rather a set of related
> candidates.
> >
> > First is John Constable's 1809 version of "Malvern Hall", here
> >

> <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/constable-malvern-hall-warwickshire-n02653 <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/constable-malvern-hall-warwickshire-n02653>>. This one is easy to find reproductions of, e.g. this one <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112113388638&view=1up&seq=25 <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112113388638&view=1up&seq=25>>, so PD status shouldn't be an issue.

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B Keith

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Aug 7, 2023, 5:57:06 PM8/7/23

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I’d say yes. A bunch of the yet un added schools stories will come from "Tales of Wrykyn and Elsewhere” (1997) if it ever gets transcribed.

_________

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Joseph Montanaro

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Aug 8, 2023, 12:51:32 AM8/8/23

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Should I set the "belongs-to-collection" meta to "School Stories," then?

B Keith

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Aug 8, 2023, 9:36:57 AM8/8/23

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It’s kind of a unique situation, so yes, that’s what I would do. Alex can sort it out if it becomes a more common issue or he decides to change who we refer to them.

Bruce

_________

Gaudeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

>>>> b...@bobrk.com <http://bobrk.com/> wrote:
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Yes, I’m having the same issue with Head of Kay’s.
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > Bob
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > >
>>>> > > > > On May 30, 2023, at 14:37, Alex Cabal

>>>> <al...@standardebooks.org <http://standardebooks.org/>>

>>>> > > > >> > > > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>
>>>> > > > >> > > > <mailto:standardebook...@ <>googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>>.

>>>> > > > >> > > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>
>>>> > > > >> > > <mailto:standardebook...@ <>googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>>.

>>>> > > > >> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>
>>>> > > > >> > <mailto:standardebook...@ <>googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>>.

>>>> > > > it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>
>>>> > > > <mailto:standardebook...@ <>googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>>.

>>>> > > > send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>.

>>>> > > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>> > >
>>>> >

>>>> > > > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>
>>>> > > > <mailto:standardebook...@ <>googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>>.

>>>> > > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>
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>>>> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com <http://googlegroups.com/>
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>>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
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>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d4843c3e-1afd-4c61-85bd-f7c3bfb321b2n%40googlegroups.com<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d4843c3e-1afd-4c61-85bd-f7c3bfb321b2n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d4843c3e-1afd-4c61-85bd-f7c3bfb321b2n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d4843c3e-1afd-4c61-85bd-f7c3bfb321b2n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
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Joseph Montanaro

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Aug 8, 2023, 1:36:52 PM8/8/23

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Ok! I think everything is done on my end, then.

Emma Sweeney

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Aug 9, 2023, 1:02:42 AM8/9/23

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Alex, this one is ready for you.

Emma

Alex Cabal

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Aug 9, 2023, 12:11:07 PM8/9/23

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Great work Joseph, I've gone ahead and released it. Thanks!

If you'd like to work on another book, check out our wanted list for
moderate-difficulty productions. Or, you can pitch something else to the
list that might interest you.

> https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/p-g-wodehouse/a-damsel-in-distress <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/p-g-wodehouse/a-damsel-in-distress> <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/p-g-wodehouse/a-damsel-in-distress <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/p-g-wodehouse/a-damsel-in-distress>>

> >>>> You can use the one from Yale however. Yale is on our
> approved
> >>>> list but
> >>>> in a version of the manual that is not yet released.
> >>>> On 6/8/23 2:27 PM, Joseph Montanaro wrote:
> >>>> > Ok, I have a new candidate, or rather a set of related
> >>>> candidates.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > First is John Constable's 1809 version of "Malvern
> Hall", here
> >>>> >
> >>>>

> <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/constable-malvern-hall-warwickshire-n02653 <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/constable-malvern-hall-warwickshire-n02653> <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/constable-malvern-hall-warwickshire-n02653 <https://www.tate.org.uk/art/artworks/constable-malvern-hall-warwickshire-n02653>>>. This one is easy to find reproductions of, e.g. this one <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112113388638&view=1up&seq=25 <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112113388638&view=1up&seq=25> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112113388638&view=1up&seq=25 <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112113388638&view=1up&seq=25>>>, so PD status shouldn't be an issue.

> <http://googlegroups.com/ <http://googlegroups.com/>>>.

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Joseph Montanaro

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Aug 9, 2023, 1:32:19 PM8/9/23

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Thanks! I won't start on anything new just at the moment since it's peak
busy season at work (I work at a school), but once things calm down a bit I
have one or two ideas that I might pitch.

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