Translating French dialogue in Brontë novels

[Jennifer Frye]

Hi everyone! (New to both Standard Ebooks specifically and Google Groups generally so I hope I'm doing this right, not missing any formatting rules etc.)

I'll jump right in. I'm a huge fan of all the Brontës, but something that has kept me from reading public domain ebooks of their novels is that they tend to have sections of dialogue in French. These are generally very small sections relative to the size of the novel, but there's enough French that it's not really possible to follow what's happening without a translation. I imagine this poses accessibility problems for other readers, as well. 

Has Standard Ebooks considered adding footnote translations for these novels (or for similar novels that have very small sections of a foreign language)? Obviously I'm not talking about books written completely in a foreign language, or even with large or intricate sections that are not in English. In the case of the Brontës, the French is very simple to the point that even adding Google Translate translations would provide enough context to follow along (I know this because Google Translate got me through a paperback copy of Jane Eyre that included no translations). 

I think this would go a long way to improve the accessibility of these novels. Since Standard Ebooks puts a lot of effort into formatting, and isn't simply providing exact ebook reproductions of public domain works but is creating "deluxe" versions of these books, I wonder if this is something you might consider. 

Happy to help out in any way possible!

[Alex Cabal]

An interesting idea, but we'd have to find a French translator who's
willing to do it on a volunteer basis and release the work to the public
domain. Google Translate is OK for casual use but I don't think it's
good enough to apply to literature indiscriminately.

On 11/22/22 12:59 AM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> Hi everyone! (New to both Standard Ebooks specifically and Google Groups
> generally so I hope I'm doing this right, not missing any formatting
> rules etc.)
>
> I'll jump right in. I'm a huge fan of all the Brontës, but something
> that has kept me from reading public domain ebooks of their novels is
> that they tend to have sections of dialogue in French. These are
> generally very small sections relative to the size of the novel, but
> there's enough French that it's not really possible to follow what's
> happening without a translation. I imagine this poses accessibility
> problems for other readers, as well.
>
> Has Standard Ebooks considered adding footnote translations for these
> novels (or for similar novels that have very small sections of a foreign
> language)? Obviously I'm not talking about books written completely in a
> foreign language, or even with large or intricate sections that are not
> in English. In the case of the Brontës, the French is very simple to the
> point that even adding Google Translate translations would provide
> enough context to follow along (I know this because Google Translate got

> me through a paperback copy of /Jane Eyre/ that included no translations).

>
> I think this would go a long way to improve the accessibility of these
> novels. Since Standard Ebooks puts a lot of effort into formatting, and
> isn't simply providing exact ebook reproductions of public domain works
> but is creating "deluxe" versions of these books, I wonder if this is
> something you might consider.
>
> Happy to help out in any way possible!
>

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[Jennifer Frye]

Fair enough. What about finding public domain editions with translations and using their translations, then?

Here is one such edition of Jane Eyre (published 1910): https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est 

[Alex Cabal]

Sure, we could certainly include those. If you want to add them to our
edition go ahead and make a PR!

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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[Alex Cabal]

Although the book you linked to looks like an abridgement. You'd have to
compare against the original to ensure the French hasn't been abridged.

[Jennifer Frye]

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the terms here—what's a PR and how do I make one?

[Alex Cabal]

A Github pull request to amend the ebook yourself; the source is here:
https://github.com/standardebooks/charlotte-bronte_jane-eyre

On 11/22/22 5:52 PM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the terms here—what's a PR and how do I
> make one?
> On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 3:08:51 PM UTC-8 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> Although the book you linked to looks like an abridgement. You'd
> have to
> compare against the original to ensure the French hasn't been abridged.
>
> On 11/22/22 5:07 PM, Alex Cabal wrote:
> > Sure, we could certainly include those. If you want to add them
> to our
> > edition go ahead and make a PR!
> >
> > On 11/22/22 5:06 PM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> >> Fair enough. What about finding public domain editions with
> >> translations and using their translations, then?
> >>
> >> Here is one such edition of Jane Eyre (published
> >> 1910):

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/61ee4843-0a3e-49fa-ac70-37c21f6c16c0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

> >>
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[Vince]

A Pull Request. Each of our books is stored in its own git repository in GitHub. To request a change, clone the SE source repository, make the change in your local copy on a new branch, then create a pull request on the SE repository to “pull” in the changes.

If all of that is still sounding like a foreign language :), then a web search on git and GitHub is probably going to be required.

Note that adding the translations will involve several steps—the translations will need to be in endnotes, so if there is not already an endnote file, one will have to be created, the endnote references added to the places where the French occurs, and the translation added to the endnote file for that reference. You can see, e.g., the Maupassant Short Fiction book, as I had to do the same thing there for a number of French verse quotations.

[Jennifer Frye]

Thank you both!

[François Grandjean]

I can always look at the French passages if necessary. Just let know.

[Jennifer Frye]

If you could look at some of the passages, that would be fantastic! I found translations for most of the Jane Eyre in the abridged version (though I question the precision and, in one case, the accuracy)—are you able to translate the other passages, as well? Let me know and I'll send the passages with context.

Thanks so much for helping!

[Jennifer Frye]

Here is a link to a Google Doc with all of the French phrases/passages. (I realized this would be neater and easier to work on then my earlier attempt at copy/pasting everything into a message—sorry about that, still getting the hang of Groups.) 

Thank you again!

On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 5:27:32 PM UTC-8 francois....@gmail.com wrote:

[François Grandjean]

Jennifer: I’ve finally gone through your list—I needed to wait until I had some free time; you can ask Vince about it. The existing translations seemed fine to me—I only corrected one where a small details was left out. I’ve spent the time adding the missing translations, so you can check that and see what you think.

This turned out into a bit of a rabbit hole: I found some small errors in the SE edition, which I couldn’t leave untouched.

[Jennifer Frye]

François: Thank you so so much! These are wonderful. I've left a couple responses to some of your comments, but otherwise will be using all of your recommended translations. Good catch on the phrases already in M-W and on the line from La Fontaine. I really appreciate your help with this!

Vince/Alex: I've gone through the SE Manual of Style, but I'm struggling to figure out how to attribute the translators (of which I've used three: François; the anonymous translator from the public domain Internet Archive book; and Elizur Wright, who translated a poem of which I used a single line of translation, also taken from a public domain book in the Internet Archive). I'm not sure if I need to add a translation metadata block as the entire work is not translated. I think I might need to provide attribution to all three translators in the Colophon, and then link to the IA scans in the Imprint. Is there an easy answer to this, or do I need to dig through the Chicago Manual of Style?

(Side note, I found a typo in the SE style manual:  “7.10.5.2 Each endnote’s contains a backlink”)

[Vince]

I don’t think they need translator blocks, since they’re not for the work as a whole. For Maupassant, I just put cites in the endnotes (see the manual for formatting).

François, if I remember (long) past conversations correctly, I believe Alex will need an email from you explicitly donating your translations to the public domain. As always, thanks so much for your help!

Thanks to you, too, Jennifer, for pulling all of this together!

If we could find someone fluent in Latin, we could keep them busy for six months translating endnotes in Gibbon. Hah!

[Jennifer Frye]

Thank you, Vince! I see the Maupassant often uses the citation “Translator’s note,” presumably referring to the section in the Colophon that states “[the short stories] were translated from French between 1901 and 1949 by Ernest Boyd” etc. Would it therefore be appropriate to cite all endnotes with Translator’s note and place a similar section in the Colophon stating that “Passages in French were translated by François Grandjean based on an anonymous translation published in 1910 by the Classics Appreciation Society.”, with the exception of the single translation taken from Elizur Wright, which would instead be cited as “The League of the Rats,” Jean de La Fontaine, The fables of La Fontaine, trans. Elizur Wright (London: Ingram, Cooke, and Co., 1853)?

Or, do I need to provide the full citation in every endnote? It seems like this would cause a lot of unnecessary visual clutter given that Ibid. is not allowed and that most of the translations are from the same source (and are often rather short passages). But, I’m happy to do this if you’d prefer.

Sorry for all the questions! Steep learning curve. 

[Alex Cabal]

You would add the person doing the translation as an annotator, because
you're annotating the text with endnotes, not doing an actual
translation of the full text. You can look at any book with endnotes to
see what the pattern for that looks like.

On 11/25/22 8:19 PM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> *François: *Thank you so so much! These are wonderful. I've left a

> couple responses to some of your comments, but otherwise will be using
> all of your recommended translations. Good catch on the phrases already
> in M-W and on the line from La Fontaine. I really appreciate your help
> with this!
>

> *Vince/Alex:* I've gone through the SE Manual of Style, but I'm
> struggling to figure out how to attribute the translators (/of which

> I've used three: François; the anonymous translator from the public
> domain Internet Archive book

> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n3/mode/2up>;

> and Elizur Wright, who translated a poem of which I used a single line
> of translation, also taken from a public domain book

> <https://archive.org/details/fablesoflafont00lafo/>in the Internet
> Archive/). I'm not sure if I need to add a translation metadata block as

> the entire work is not translated. I think I might need to provide
> attribution to all three translators in the Colophon, and then link to
> the IA scans in the Imprint. Is there an easy answer to this, or do I
> need to dig through the Chicago Manual of Style?
>
> (Side note, I found a typo in the SE style manual:  “7.10.5.2

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#7.10.5.2> Each

> endnote’s contains a backlink”)
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 10:48:11 PM UTC-8
> francois....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Jennifer: I’ve finally gone through your list—I needed to wait until
> I had some free time; you can ask Vince about it. The existing
> translations seemed fine to me—I only corrected one where a small
> details was left out. I’ve spent the time adding the missing
> translations, so you can check that and see what you think.
>
> This turned out into a bit of a rabbit hole: I found some small
> errors in the SE edition, which I couldn’t leave untouched.
>
> On Wednesday, 23 November 2022 at 17:05:30 UTC-6 Jennifer Frye wrote:
>
> Here is a link to a Google Doc

> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing> with all of the French phrases/passages. (I realized this would be neater and easier to work on then my earlier attempt at copy/pasting everything into a message—sorry about that, still getting the hang of Groups.)

>> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>

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[Alex Cabal]

No need to do any of that. Just add an endnotes file with the
translations. Since these are the only endnotes, <cite> is not needed.
Credit the translator in the metadata only, as "annotator" NOT "translator".

> If we could find someone /fluent/in Latin, we could keep them busy

> for six months translating endnotes in Gibbon. Hah!
>
>
>> On Nov 25, 2022, at 8:19 PM, Jennifer Frye <jennif...@outlook.com>
>> wrote:
>>

>> *François:*Thank you so so much! These are wonderful. I've left a

>> couple responses to some of your comments, but otherwise will be
>> using all of your recommended translations. Good catch on the
>> phrases already in M-W and on the line from La Fontaine. I really
>> appreciate your help with this!
>>

>> *Vince/Alex:* I've gone through the SE Manual of Style, but I'm
>> struggling to figure out how to attribute the translators (/of

>> which I've used three: François; the anonymous translator from the
>> public domain Internet Archivebook

>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n3/mode/2up>; and Elizur Wright, who translated a poem of which I used a single line of translation, also taken from a public domainbook<https://archive.org/details/fablesoflafont00lafo/>in the Internet Archive/). I'm not sure if I need to add a translation metadata block as the entire work is not translated. I think I might need to provide attribution to all three translators in the Colophon, and then link to the IA scans in the Imprint. Is there an easy answer to this, or do I need to dig through the Chicago Manual of Style?

>>
>> (Side note, I found a typo in the SE style manual:  “7.10.5.2

>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#7.10.5.2>Eachendnote’s containsa backlink”)

>
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[Jennifer Frye]

Thank you Alex! That's so much easier than I'd thought it would be. 

I think I just "pushed" the proposed changes to GitHub for review. 

[Alex Cabal]

I don't see a PR on our repo. If you pushed to your own repo, then
that's not enough to send the changes to our repo. You have to open a
pull request against our repo; you can do a web search for how to do
that, there's plenty of guides.

> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n3/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n3/mode/2up>>; and Elizur Wright, who translated a poem of which I used a single line of translation, also taken from a public domainbook<https://archive.org/details/fablesoflafont00lafo/ <https://archive.org/details/fablesoflafont00lafo/>>in the Internet Archive/). I'm not sure if I need to add a translation metadata block as the entire work is not translated. I think I might need to provide attribution to all three translators in the Colophon, and then link to the IA scans in the Imprint. Is there an easy answer to this, or do I need to dig through the Chicago Manual of Style?

> >>
> >> (Side note, I found a typo in the SE style manual:  “7.10.5.2
> >> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#7.10.5.2
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#7.10.5.2>>Eachendnote’s containsa backlink”)
> >
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[Jennifer Frye]

Okay, now I've created the pull request. 

[Jennifer Frye]

François—Any interest in translating the French in Charlotte Bronte's other novels, as well (same workflow)? 

Shirley and Villette are the other two already in SE (it looks like The Professor is still in production or was cancelled). In both, French is used in the same way as in Jane Eyre—a phrase here, a line or two of dialogue there—but there's more of it, and I wasn't able to find translations in the public domain, so it would be a bit more work for you. If you're willing, I'll send you another Google doc with the French excerpts. 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 10:48:11 PM UTC-8 francois....@gmail.com wrote:

[François Grandjean]

Sure. I tend to be rather busy but this is work I enjoy. The way you did it made it very easy for me to help.

[Alex Cabal]

Sounds good. Note that we don't need to keep exact punctuation in the
translation. Remove quotation marks, capitalize the first word, and end
in a period if there's no ending punctuation.

It also seems that your SE toolset is old, you should update it using
`pipx upgrade standardebooks` before continuing so that you have the
latest versions of lint and build.

On 11/29/22 12:05 AM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> François—Any interest in translating the French in Charlotte Bronte's
> other novels, as well (same workflow)?
>
> Shirley and Villette are the other two already in SE (it looks like The
> Professor is still in production or was cancelled). In both, French is
> used in the same way as in Jane Eyre—a phrase here, a line or two of
> dialogue there—but there's more of it, and I wasn't able to find
> translations in the public domain, so it would be a bit more work for
> you. If you're willing, I'll send you another Google doc with the French
> excerpts.
> On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 10:48:11 PM UTC-8
> francois....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Jennifer: I’ve finally gone through your list—I needed to wait until
> I had some free time; you can ask Vince about it. The existing
> translations seemed fine to me—I only corrected one where a small
> details was left out. I’ve spent the time adding the missing
> translations, so you can check that and see what you think.
>
> This turned out into a bit of a rabbit hole: I found some small
> errors in the SE edition, which I couldn’t leave untouched.
>
> On Wednesday, 23 November 2022 at 17:05:30 UTC-6 Jennifer Frye wrote:
>
> Here is a link to a Google Doc

> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing> with all of the French phrases/passages. (I realized this would be neater and easier to work on then my earlier attempt at copy/pasting everything into a message—sorry about that, still getting the hang of Groups.)

>> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>

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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Jennifer Frye]

François: Thanks so much! Here's the link to the Google doc for Shirley. Take your time, no rush. I am reading Villette right now (the catalyst for this thread) and I don't want to jump ahead, so it will probably be at least a week until I'm able to start pulling out the French. 

Alex: Sure thing, thank you for letting me know. I see you already fixed the Jane Eyre endnotes. A couple more questions for you: 

First, Charlotte Bronte has a single author's note of her own in Shirley, which is currently formatted an endnote (as it should be). Is there some way I can/should set this apart from the translation endnotes? For example, when reading other annotated books, I've often seen author's notes marked with asterisks or crosses, while third-party annotations are numbered.

Second, for words that are loan words that exist in both English and French, what's the policy for deciding when they should be italicized and tagged with the French language tag? It currently seems a bit inconsistent. For example, take the following passage from Shirley as it appears in the SE (emphasis mine): 

“But, brother, they are not common sabots, such as the peasantry wear. I tell you, they are sabots noirs, très propres, très convenables. At Mons and Leuze⁠—cities not very far removed from the elegant capital of Brussels⁠—it is very seldom that the respectable people wear anything else for walking in winter. Let anyone try to wade the mud of the Flemish chaussées in a pair of Paris brodequins, on m’en dirait des nouvelles!”

All of the italicized words are italicized and tagged as French in the SE. "Sabots," "chaussées," and "brodequins" are all English words in Merriam-Webster—yet "sabots" is not italicized/tagged as French unless it's part of a larger French phrase. (It may be worth noting that none of this is italicized in the original scan.)

> an email to standardebooks+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks+unsub...@googlegroups.com>.

[Vince]

In general, the rule is that if they are in standard M-W (see SEMoS 8.2.9.4), they are not tagged; if they are not, they are tagged.

Thus, chaussées and brodequins are in the unabridged (not standard) M-W and so are tagged. Sabot is in standard M-W, and so is not tagged. The sabot phrases are not in standard M-W and so are tagged.

[Jennifer Frye]

Thanks, Vince, that makes sense. How do I know if the entry I'm looking at is from the unabridged or standard M-W? All three words I used as examples show up on www.merriam-webster.com. 

[Vince]

It says so right on the entry. See the bottom of the picture.

[Jennifer Frye]

Oh, got it. Thanks!

[Jennifer Frye]

Alex, it says I have version 2.4.3 of the toolset, which seems to be the most recent. Trying to upgrade it just gave me an error about "missing internal pipx metadata." If something was wrong with the files I worked on, it's probably because I've installed or used something incorrectly since I have basically no idea what I'm doing. 

[Alex Cabal]

When adding your own endnotes to an already existing set, end them with
<cite>—<abbr epub:type="z3998:initialism">S.E.</abbr> Editor</cite>

That's enough to differentiate them from original endnotes.

On 11/29/22 5:40 PM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> *François: *Thanks so much! Here's the link to the Google doc for
> /Shirley/
> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DcGJQ7iEtIpFW-StRB4ZJI_0c2VvUoxeAhvqV-qa6Ys/edit?usp=sharing>. Take your time, no rush. I am reading /Villette /right now (the catalyst for this thread) and I don't want to jump ahead, so it will probably be at least a week until I'm able to start pulling out the French.
>
> *Alex:* Sure thing, thank you for letting me know. I see you already
> fixed the /Jane Eyre/ endnotes. A couple more questions for you:

>
> First, Charlotte Bronte has a single author's note of her own in

> /Shirley/, which is currently formatted an endnote (as it should be). Is

> there some way I can/should set this apart from the translation
> endnotes? For example, when reading other annotated books, I've often
> seen author's notes marked with asterisks or crosses, while third-party
> annotations are numbered.
>
> Second, for words that are loan words that exist in both English and
> French, what's the policy for deciding when they should be italicized
> and tagged with the French language tag? It currently seems a bit

> inconsistent. For example, take the following passage from /Shirley
> <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charlotte-bronte/shirley/text/single-page>/as it appears in the SE (emphasis mine):
>
> “But, brother, they are not common *sabots*, such as the peasantry wear.
> I tell you, they are */sabots noirs, très propres, très convenables/.*

> At Mons and Leuze⁠—cities not very far removed from the elegant capital
> of Brussels⁠—it is very seldom that the respectable people wear anything
> else for walking in winter. Let anyone try to wade the mud of the

> Flemish */chaussées/ *in a pair of Paris /*brodequins, on m’en dirait
> des nouvelles!*/*”*

>
> All of the italicized words are italicized and tagged as French in the
> SE. "Sabots," "chaussées," and "brodequins" are all English words in
> Merriam-Webster—yet "sabots" is not italicized/tagged as French unless
> it's part of a larger French phrase. (It may be worth noting that none
> of this is italicized in the original scan

> <https://archive.org/details/shirley01bron/page/93/mode/2up>.)

>
> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 11:38:15 PM UTC-8 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> Sounds good. Note that we don't need to keep exact punctuation in the
> translation. Remove quotation marks, capitalize the first word, and end
> in a period if there's no ending punctuation.
>
> It also seems that your SE toolset is old, you should update it using
> `pipx upgrade standardebooks` before continuing so that you have the
> latest versions of lint and build.
>
> On 11/29/22 12:05 AM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> > François—Any interest in translating the French in Charlotte
> Bronte's
> > other novels, as well (same workflow)?
> >
> > Shirley and Villette are the other two already in SE (it looks
> like The
> > Professor is still in production or was cancelled). In both,
> French is
> > used in the same way as in Jane Eyre—a phrase here, a line or two of
> > dialogue there—but there's more of it, and I wasn't able to find
> > translations in the public domain, so it would be a bit more work
> for
> > you. If you're willing, I'll send you another Google doc with the
> French
> > excerpts.
> > On Wednesday, November 23, 2022 at 10:48:11 PM UTC-8

> > francois....@gmail.com <mailto:francois....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Jennifer: I’ve finally gone through your list—I needed to wait until
> > I had some free time; you can ask Vince about it. The existing
> > translations seemed fine to me—I only corrected one where a small
> > details was left out. I’ve spent the time adding the missing
> > translations, so you can check that and see what you think.
> >
> > This turned out into a bit of a rabbit hole: I found some small
> > errors in the SE edition, which I couldn’t leave untouched.
> >
> > On Wednesday, 23 November 2022 at 17:05:30 UTC-6 Jennifer Frye
> wrote:
> >
> > Here is a link to a Google Doc
> >

> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing>> with all of the French phrases/passages. (I realized this would be neater and easier to work on then my earlier attempt at copy/pasting everything into a message—sorry about that, still getting the hang of Groups.)

> >
> > Thank you again!
> >
> > On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 5:27:32 PM UTC-8

> >> <jennif...@outlook.com <mailto:jennif...@outlook.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the terms
> >> here—what's a PR and how do I make one?
> >> On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 3:08:51 PM UTC-8
> >> Alex Cabal wrote:
> >>
> >> Although the book you linked to looks like an
> >> abridgement. You'd have to
> >> compare against the original to ensure the
> >> French hasn't been abridged.
> >>
> >> On 11/22/22 5:07 PM, Alex Cabal wrote:
> >> > Sure, we could certainly include those. If
> >> you want to add them to our
> >> > edition go ahead and make a PR!
> >> >
> >> > On 11/22/22 5:06 PM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> >> >> Fair enough. What about finding public
> >> domain editions with
> >> >> translations and using their translations,
> >> then?
> >> >>
> >> >> Here is one such edition of Jane Eyre
> >> (published
> >> >> 1910):
> >>

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>>

> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>>.

> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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[Jennifer Frye]

I managed to find a public domain translation of a good chunk of the French in Villette (which is good because wow is there a lot of French). The scans are on the Hathi Trust Digital library (Volume 1; Volume 2), which I see is an acceptable source: are these acceptable scans? The books seem to be from a more deluxe collection, and so the copyright/publication info isn’t formatted regularly—it’s given in Roman numerals, MDCCCXCIII, which works out to 1893.

(As a humorous side note, here is what the clearly irritated editor had to say in the introductory note about including translations: “Many critics have blamed the author for the constant introduction of French conversations into Villette, and it must be admitted to be bad art; and even today, when French is so generally spoken, it is probable there is a considerable number of readers who enjoy the book less for want of a closer acquaintance with the French language; to such the somewhat free translations contained in the appendix to each volume of this edition may prove of service.”)

Also: If/when SE publishes Charlotte’s “The Professor,” there’s another installment from the same collection with an appendix of translations. 

[François Grandjean]

Just an update: I haven’t had time to check the document you have left me but it is still on my to-do list.

[Alex Cabal]

Yes, you can go ahead and use those scans. Thanks!

On 12/23/22 7:41 PM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> I managed to find a public domain translation of a good chunk of the
> French in Villette (which is good because wow is there a lot of
> French). The scans are on the Hathi Trust Digital library (Volume 1

> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31175001566069&view=1up&seq=1>; Volume 2 <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082227855&view=1up&seq=340>), which I see is an acceptable source: are these acceptable scans? The books seem to be from a more deluxe collection, and so the copyright/publication info isn’t formatted regularly—it’s given in Roman numerals, MDCCCXCIII, which works out to 1893.

>
> (As a humorous side note, here is what the clearly irritated editor had
> to say in the introductory note about including translations: “Many
> critics have blamed the author for the constant introduction of French
> conversations into Villette, and it must be admitted to be bad art; and
> even today, when French is so generally spoken, it is probable there is
> a considerable number of readers who enjoy the book less for want of a
> closer acquaintance with the French language; to such the somewhat free
> translations contained in the appendix to each volume of this edition
> may prove of service.”)
>
> Also: If/when SE publishes Charlotte’s “The Professor,” there’s another
> installment

> <https://archive.org/details/workscharlottee05brongoog/page/n306/mode/2up> from the same collection with an appendix of translations.

>
> On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 9:16:45 PM UTC-8 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> When adding your own endnotes to an already existing set, end them with
> <cite>—<abbr epub:type="z3998:initialism">S.E.</abbr> Editor</cite>
>
> That's enough to differentiate them from original endnotes.
>
> On 11/29/22 5:40 PM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> > *François: *Thanks so much! Here's the link to the Google doc for
> > /Shirley/
> >

> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DcGJQ7iEtIpFW-StRB4ZJI_0c2VvUoxeAhvqV-qa6Ys/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DcGJQ7iEtIpFW-StRB4ZJI_0c2VvUoxeAhvqV-qa6Ys/edit?usp=sharing>>. Take your time, no rush. I am reading /Villette /right now (the catalyst for this thread) and I don't want to jump ahead, so it will probably be at least a week until I'm able to start pulling out the French.

> >
> > *Alex:* Sure thing, thank you for letting me know. I see you already
> > fixed the /Jane Eyre/ endnotes. A couple more questions for you:
> >
> > First, Charlotte Bronte has a single author's note of her own in
> > /Shirley/, which is currently formatted an endnote (as it should
> be). Is
> > there some way I can/should set this apart from the translation
> > endnotes? For example, when reading other annotated books, I've
> often
> > seen author's notes marked with asterisks or crosses, while
> third-party
> > annotations are numbered.
> >
> > Second, for words that are loan words that exist in both English and
> > French, what's the policy for deciding when they should be
> italicized
> > and tagged with the French language tag? It currently seems a bit
> > inconsistent. For example, take the following passage from /Shirley
> >

> <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charlotte-bronte/shirley/text/single-page <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charlotte-bronte/shirley/text/single-page>>/as it appears in the SE (emphasis mine):

> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing>>> with all of the French phrases/passages. (I realized this would be neater and easier to work on then my earlier attempt at copy/pasting everything into a message—sorry about that, still getting the hang of Groups.)

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>>>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

> >
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> send
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> >

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[Jennifer Frye]

Wonderful, thank you Alex!

And no rush Francois, the last few weeks have been very busy for me too. Take your time. I just appreciate your help in making these novels more accessible :) However, I do see that anonymous users have been adding translations to the Google doc link I sent for Shirley, which is a problem, so I'm going to remove public edit access… Would you rather leave translations via comment like before, or if you send me your email address I can give you direct editing access? 

I'll probably send you the document for Villette in the next week or so. 

Happy new year everyone! 

[François Grandjean]

I’ve been slowly adding my contributions to the file (and fixing some errors in the French text to submit them later in a PR), so I’ll eventually get there.

What kind of edits were done to the document? I’ve seen edits about phrases being in MW and thus needing no translation nor language tag. I had assumed they were yours but maybe someone else is helping—SE is a collaborative project after all. I don’t think you should lock the document up if the edits aren’t destructive.

I much prefer the format you made this time; I find it easier to use than leaving comments. If you lock the document, I guess I can suggest the edits and you can review and accept them later—or I can send you my email address. Let’s see.

[Jennifer Frye]

Most of the comments are mine, but anonymous editors added translations through the beginning of Chapter 5 (I haven't deleted them, but they definitely need to be double-checked). Don't get me wrong, it's wonderful that people want to contribute, but I assume there are problems accepting anonymous translations that haven't been explicitly released to SE/public domain. Also, since I obviously don't speak French myself, I can't do any quality control. 

It seems like the current format works well as I can more easily see who is suggesting edits. I'll still leave it open to suggestions from anyone with the link, but would you please go through and review the translations that have been made anonymously for accuracy (feel free to rewrite as needed)? 

[Jennifer Frye]

All right, and here's the doc for Villette: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XJ4yXrG4Sh3loXEVOOyDTEJXFxxny6E3XgyiuLUzj7c/edit?usp=sharing

[François Grandjean]

I haven’t spotted any translation that isn’t mine. As far as I know, I was logged into my Google account every time I’ve edited the file. Weird.

[Jennifer Frye]

Oh, weird, but that makes so much more sense than a random person quietly pitching in. 

I did some googling and apparently when users edit the document through public sharing, their identity remains anonymous, regardless of whether they’ve signed in to their Google Account or not. Who knew. 

[Alex Cabal]

Thanks, this should be fixed now!

On 2/19/23 4:40 AM, Lauren Prichard wrote:
> Maybe it's because I'm on my phone but I can't figure out how to create
> a new email chain so I'm responding here, hope that's okay.
>
> I found a typo in this section of "Villette": quant à la. St. Pierre,
>
> There should be no period after "la".
>
> Also, I'm not a native speaker but studied French for a couple of years,
> enough to be able to get through Villette. I'm happy to help translate
> the French in Villette if that's acceptable (and if you still need help).

>
> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 2:54:28 PM UTC-8 Jennifer Frye wrote:
>
> Oh, weird, but that makes so much more sense than a random person
> quietly pitching in.
>
> I did some googling and apparently when users edit the document
> through public sharing, their identity remains anonymous, regardless
> of whether they’ve signed in to their Google Account or not. Who knew.
>
> On Wednesday, January 25, 2023 at 12:21:06 AM UTC-8
> francois....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I haven’t spotted any translation that isn’t mine. As far as I
> know, I was logged into my Google account every time I’ve edited
> the file. Weird.
>
> On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 17:04:51 UTC-6 Jennifer Frye wrote:
>
> All right, and here's the doc for Villette:

> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XJ4yXrG4Sh3loXEVOOyDTEJXFxxny6E3XgyiuLUzj7c/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XJ4yXrG4Sh3loXEVOOyDTEJXFxxny6E3XgyiuLUzj7c/edit?usp=sharing>

> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31175001566069&view=1up&seq=1 <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31175001566069&view=1up&seq=1>>; Volume 2 <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082227855&view=1up&seq=340 <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=nyp.33433082227855&view=1up&seq=340>>), which I see is an acceptable source: are these acceptable scans? The books seem to be from a more deluxe collection, and so the copyright/publication info isn’t formatted regularly—it’s given in Roman numerals, MDCCCXCIII, which works out to 1893.

> >
> > (As a humorous side note, here is what
> the clearly irritated editor had
> > to say in the introductory note about
> including translations: “Many
> > critics have blamed the author for the
> constant introduction of French
> > conversations into Villette, and it must
> be admitted to be bad art; and
> > even today, when French is so generally
> spoken, it is probable there is
> > a considerable number of readers who
> enjoy the book less for want of a
> > closer acquaintance with the French
> language; to such the somewhat free
> > translations contained in the appendix to
> each volume of this edition
> > may prove of service.”)
> >
> > Also: If/when SE publishes Charlotte’s
> “The Professor,” there’s another
> > installment
> >

> <https://archive.org/details/workscharlottee05brongoog/page/n306/mode/2up <https://archive.org/details/workscharlottee05brongoog/page/n306/mode/2up>> from the same collection with an appendix of translations.

> >
> > On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 9:16:45
> PM UTC-8 Alex Cabal wrote:
> >
> > When adding your own endnotes to an
> already existing set, end them with
> > <cite>—<abbr
> epub:type="z3998:initialism">S.E.</abbr>
> Editor</cite>
> >
> > That's enough to differentiate them from
> original endnotes.
> >
> > On 11/29/22 5:40 PM, Jennifer Frye wrote:
> > > *François: *Thanks so much! Here's the
> link to the Google doc for
> > > /Shirley/
> > >
> >

> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DcGJQ7iEtIpFW-StRB4ZJI_0c2VvUoxeAhvqV-qa6Ys/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DcGJQ7iEtIpFW-StRB4ZJI_0c2VvUoxeAhvqV-qa6Ys/edit?usp=sharing> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DcGJQ7iEtIpFW-StRB4ZJI_0c2VvUoxeAhvqV-qa6Ys/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DcGJQ7iEtIpFW-StRB4ZJI_0c2VvUoxeAhvqV-qa6Ys/edit?usp=sharing>>>. Take your time, no rush. I am reading /Villette /right now (the catalyst for this thread) and I don't want to jump ahead, so it will probably be at least a week until I'm able to start pulling out the French.

> <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charlotte-bronte/shirley/text/single-page <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charlotte-bronte/shirley/text/single-page> <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charlotte-bronte/shirley/text/single-page <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/charlotte-bronte/shirley/text/single-page>>>/as it appears in the SE (emphasis mine):

> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SWUesrDf1OxXa8CzIgA0whYUoA6mnYNY_Jgc0VqhjbQ/edit?usp=sharing>>>> with all of the French phrases/passages. (I realized this would be neater and easier to work on then my earlier attempt at copy/pasting everything into a message—sorry about that, still getting the hang of Groups.)

> https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.126383/page/n91/mode/2up?q=c%27est>>>>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/410b8077-b864-4e5b-81f2-4144de87e96dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>>.

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[François Grandjean]

Hi Jennifer! Sorry for the lack of updates; life has been hectic these past few months. I should be able to get back to work on this now—as well as my poor own production of The Water-Babies.

Quick question, though: as I’m going through this, I regularly spot some small issues (typos, semantics, etc.) and correct. Specifically, there are some French terms that are in M-W and shouldn’t be italicised. From what I understand/remember, you were already fixing those, correct? I’m checking so we do not do the same work twice.

[François Grandjean]

It finally happened: I managed to go through your file!

I’ve corrected a few typos and unsemanticated works—I’ll submit a PR later today. I have not touched italicised words that are in M-W at all.

[Jennifer Frye]

Ah, so sorry for the radio silence! April is busy season at work and I've basically been working nonstop. I'll be honest, I don't remember what I did and didn't correct in Shirley—I wised up by the time Villette came around and made a bunch of corrections first, but for Shirley I jumped straight into adding endnote tags so the commits are a bit of a mess. I probably changed them, but I'll double-check when I add in your translations (hopefully this weekend…but we'll see what my workload is like and how well I remember how to use GitHub). 

Thank you so much for helping with this! 

[François Grandjean]

No worries. I’ve already submitted some fixes. Make sure to update your fork so you have the latest commits.

And if you need help, it should be easy to find those words in M-W since we have both been diligent in marking them in your file.

[Jennifer Frye]

Great, I submitted the PR! It looks like I'd updated everything, so that should be finished. 

How do you feel about Villette? Personally my favorite Bronte novel but the amount of French puts Shirley to shame—the Google doc is 45 pages long and the table clocks in at nearly 700 lines.

If not, I found a public domain translation that covers the most crucial dialogue, so I can move forward with that.

(In the name of keeping the text pretty and as uncluttered as possible, I'm wondering if it's possible to denote notes with asterisks instead of numbers?)

[François Grandjean]

I don’t mind helping again; just be aware that it may take me time—it all depends on work, sadly.

If someone has already done the job of translating the French parts and it is PD, I don’t see why we shouldn’t use it—the only reason I can see to do the work again is if it is a poor quality translation. What we could do is check that translation against the original and see if anything else needs to be translated. What do you think?

[Jennifer Frye]

I don't think it's a time-sensitive project, so that's fine by me :) 

I've already added all the public domain translations (to the Google doc, not the SE file)—take a look and see what you think. 

A few of them seemed a bit off, or perhaps just archaic, but otherwise they generally seem solid. Translations are missing for some dialogue, and for a bunch of random little phrases/words, some of which pop up only once or twice, others which appear dozens of times throughout the text. For the sake of consistency and completeness I'd love to add translations for everything (or, rather, the first instance of a given word/phrase except for character names and titles or when the word is explicitly defined in the text itself), but it's up to you.