[New project] In search of the castaways by Jules Verne

[Genevieve Segol]

I would like to work on "In search of the castaways" by Jules Verne

PG has two versions of this book, with and without illustrations.  The illustrations are dated and of no import to the story, except for three images in Ch2  which represent fragments of a damage document (see attached example). So, my suggestion would be to use the PG book without figures, and add the three images.

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/46597

http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008613392

.

[Alex Cabal]

Sure, sounds good. It looks like the diagrams can be converted to SVG.
Remember to maintain a carefully curated git history - we don't want to
descend into rebase hell again :)

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[Genevieve Segol]

I need help with regular expressions.

I am still cleaning the pg download before the initial commit.  These nice people have inserted the page numbers in the text, which means that I have to remove hundreds of expressions in the form:

<span class="pagenum"><a name="Page_31" id="Page_31">[Pg 31]</a></span>

Because  ' [ ' is a special characters, which I am not clear how to handle here, I was thinking of first changing [ and ] to something else, and then writing a regex to remove all the <span ...></span> easily (sort of).  There is probably a better way.  Suggestions?

Note:  Sublime Text uses Perl regex syntax.

Thank you!

[Bob R. Kenyon]

Escape the “[“ characters by putting a “\” in front of them. This takes away the special meaning of the square bracket to regex.

Bob

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[B Keith]

Or easier yet: <span class="pagenum”>.*?</span>

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[C T]

Might need to escape the / too depending on the regex flavor.  

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[Genevieve Segol]

initial commit

https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott

[Genevieve Segol]

1. Sections in each chapter are in the form <div> SECTION TITLE IN CAPS </div>.

What should I do with these caps?  Should I change <div> to something else?

2. In Chapter 2 there are numerous italics to emphasize words in puzzle (see attachment).  May I leave these <i>?

Thank you.

[Weijia Cheng]

If it's a subchapter of a book, you could surround the entire subchapter with a <section> of type z3998:subchapter. Depending on whether you think the subchapter should appear in the TOC or not you could make it a <h#> or use the <header><p>...</p></header> pattern. Either way you would remove the all-caps and switch to titlecase as the heading CSS would change the text to use small caps.

[Alex Cabal]

Yes, you can leave those as <i>

On 4/18/22 2:04 AM, Genevieve Segol wrote:
> 1. Sections in each chapter are in the form <div> SECTION TITLE IN CAPS
> </div>.
> What should I do with these caps?  Should I change <div> to something else?
>
> 2. In Chapter 2 there are numerous italics to emphasize words in puzzle
> (see attachment).  May I leave these <i>?
>
> Thank you.
>
> On Thursday, April 14, 2022 at 9:25:53 PM UTC-7 Genevieve Segol wrote:
>
> initial commit
> https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott
> <https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott>
>
> On Tuesday, April 12, 2022 at 1:36:28 PM UTC-7 concave...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>
> Might need to escape the / too depending on the regex flavor.
>
>
>> On Apr 12, 2022, at 2:23 PM, Genevieve Segol
>> <genevie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I need help with regular expressions.
>> I am still cleaning the pg download before the initial
>> commit.  These nice people have inserted the page numbers
>> in the text, which means that I have to remove hundreds of
>> expressions in the form:

>> <span class="pagenum"><a name="Page_*31*"
>> id="Page_*31*">[Pg*31*]</a></span>

>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/46597>
>> >http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008613392

>> <http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/008613392>
>> > .
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[Genevieve Segol]

Is there some configuration required to use difftool?  If I do git difftool after running se semanticate, the prompt returns and nothing happens.  Should I use git diff instead?

Thank you.

[Alex Cabal]

You can try git diff, and if it doesn't say anything then there is
nothing to diff.

On 4/22/22 2:09 AM, Genevieve Segol wrote:
> Is there some configuration required to use difftool?  If I do git

> difftool after runningse semanticate, the prompt returns and nothing

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[Genevieve Segol]

Q @ chapter titles.

I understand from 8.1.4 that I have to remove the word "chapter" from the titles.  So, the headers which are now

    <h4 epub:type="title">Chapter <span epub:type="z3998:roman">I</span>.
            </h4>
            <h3>THE SHARK.</h3>

should become:

    <h4 epub:type="z3998:roman">I</h4>.
            <h3>The Shark.</h3>

Should I change h4 to h2 ?

Should I remove the periods after the numeral and the chapter's title (h3)?  The scans have the periods.  If I remove the period, should this be an editorial commit?  If I keep the period, should it be before or after </h4>?

Thank you.

[B Keith]

One of the things that is helpful is to look through Standard’s git repository and see how other books have done things. For example https://github.com/standardebooks/russell-thorndike_doctor-syn/blob/master/src/epub/text/chaptshows 

<body epub:type="bodymatter z3998:fiction">

<section id="chapter-1" epub:type="chapter">

<hgroup>

<h2 epub:type="ordinal z3998:roman">I</h2>

<h3 epub:type="title">Dymchurch-Under-the-Wall</h3>

</hgroup>

Which is the correct way of handling chapter headers

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[Genevieve Segol]

Thank you!  Indeed, finding examples in existing books on GitHub is very helpful.  The problem is finding the book that can answer one's specific question.  For newbies like me, it is a trial-and-error exercise.  It would be great to have an index with relating questions to examples, e.g., "embedded graphics" --> Alice in Wonderland.

[Alex Cabal]

The manual contains just these kinds of examples. For example
https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.4/7-high-level-structural-patterns#7.2.6.3

On 4/26/22 11:56 AM, Genevieve Segol wrote:
> Thank you!  Indeed, finding examples in existing books on GitHub is very
> helpful.  The problem is finding the book that can answer one's specific
> question.  For newbies like me, it is a trial-and-error exercise.  It
> would be great to have an index with relating questions to examples,
> e.g., "embedded graphics" --> Alice in Wonderland.
>
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 5:27:49 AM UTC-7 BTK wrote:
>
> One of the things that is helpful is to look through Standard’s git
> repository and see how other books have done things. For example

> _https://github.com/standardebooks/russell-thorndike_doctor-syn/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapt
> <https://github.com/standardebooks/russell-thorndike_doctor-syn/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapt>_shows

>> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a6947533-7801-4d52-adb6-ef9e0c890d11n%40googlegroups.com

>> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a6947533-7801-4d52-adb6-ef9e0c890d11n%40googlegroups.com>>
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[Genevieve Segol]

Yes, but I would like to know from which book the example is taken so that I can look up the whole thing on GitHub, in particular the css.

[Alex Cabal]

The manual has all the CSS you need - in this case, none.

The manual should have complete examples for almost all common use cases
like these, it shouldn't be necessary to have to look to existing ebooks
unless we're considering an extreme exception

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[Genevieve Segol]

Amen.  I love your guide, but I still will build my own cheat sheet :-)

[Genevieve Segol]

Please see attachment.

Should the <i> be changed to <em>? Or maybe single quotes?

Thank you.

[David Grigg]

I would think single quotes would be appropriate in this context.

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[Alex Cabal]

Well, the first italics say "emphasizing" just before them, so they
should be <em>.

The 2nd set should probably be single quotes instead of italics.

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[Genevieve Segol]

1. "terra firma" is spelled with and without a hyphen.  If I reconcile the two (without),  is this an Editorial commit?

2. If I remove the hyphen in "witness-box" (which was not picked by 'modernize spelling'), is this an Editorial commit?

Thank you.

[Alex Cabal]

Yes to both

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[Genevieve Segol]

The chapters in the PG edition include several subchapters/sections marked by <div> </div> tags, which I had changed to <header><p> </p> </header>.  (Lint does not like that, but that may not be my main problem.) See Sub_PGch2 for an example of how this appears in the PG book.  

The main problem is that the scans do not  have subchapters at all.  Instead, they show what appears to be alternative page headers: sometimes the page header is the chapter title, and sometimes it is a subchapter title.  For example, see Sub_ScanCh2p24 and Sub_ScanCh2p25 for examples of the page header being the chapter title (p.24) and the alternative title (p.25), respectively.  

The original French edition uses a third alternative, which is to use the book title as page header, split into two strings:  "Les Enfants"" appearing in page n, and "Du Capitaine Grant" on page n+1.

Here are links to the scans:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005398448&view=1up&seq=28&skin=2021

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89006931323&view=1up&seq=33&skin=2021

Question:  Should I go with the PG approach?  If so, why is Lint complaining about the subchapters (<header>) not appearing in the TOC [m-045] (I don't think they should)?

Thank you!

[Lukas Bystricky]

Those aren't technically subchapters, just headers on each page that provide a brief outline of what's happening on that page. That's why they can appear mid sentence. You should remove them, in fact I'm surprised PG kept them in. Their current policy is to remove them. 

[Alex Cabal]

Correct, those are not subchapters, you can just cut them

On 5/4/22 2:49 PM, Lukas Bystricky wrote:
> Those aren't technically subchapters, just headers on each page that
> provide a brief outline of what's happening on that page. That's why
> they can appear mid sentence. You should remove them, in fact I'm
> surprised PG kept them in. Their current policy is to remove them.
>
> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:09:45 PM UTC+2 genevie...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The chapters in the PG edition include several subchapters/sections
> marked by <div> </div> tags, which I had changed to <header><p> </p>
> </header>.  (Lint does not like that, but that may not be my main
> problem.) See Sub_PGch2 for an example of how this appears in the PG
> book.
> The main problem is that the scans do not  have subchapters at all.
>  Instead, they show what appears to be alternative page headers:
> sometimes the page header is the chapter title, and sometimes it is
> a subchapter title.  For example, see Sub_ScanCh2p24 and
> Sub_ScanCh2p25 for examples of the page header being the chapter
> title (p.24) and the alternative title (p.25), respectively.
>
> The original French edition uses a third alternative, which is to
> use the book title as page header, split into two strings:

>  "/Les Enfants/"" appearing in page n, and "/Du Capitaine Grant/"

> on page n+1.
>
> Here are links to the scans:
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005398448&view=1up&seq=28&skin=2021

> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005398448&view=1up&seq=28&skin=2021>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89006931323&view=1up&seq=33&skin=2021
> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89006931323&view=1up&seq=33&skin=2021>
>
> *Question:*  Should I go with the PG approach?  If so, why is Lint

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[Genevieve Segol]

Lint returns the same three errors for the chapter titles throughout the book : m-045, s-021 and t-065 (see ScreenShot1).  I followed the model given in response to my question on April 26 (ScreenShot2).  Is the period the problem?  It is in the scans (ScreenShot3). My rationale for placing the period after </h2> and before </h3> is that it does not belong to the roman numeral but can be considered part of the title.

If you want me to remove the periods, is this an Editorial commit?

Thank you

[Vince]

See SEMOS 8.1.3.

[Genevieve Segol]

I removed the periods and rebuilt the toc, but I am still getting m-045 and s-021 for all chapters.  What is the problem?

Thank you.

[C T]

try running this - i think its your <title> elements on the pages themselves

se build-title .
se build-toc .

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[Genevieve Segol]

You are right: rebuilding the <title> solved this problem.  Thank you for your help!

[Genevieve Segol]

Suggested cover image:

https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.67349.html

[Alex Cabal]

That works, thanks!

On 5/9/22 1:33 AM, Genevieve Segol wrote:
> Suggested cover image:
> https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.67349.html
>
>
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 10:27:55 PM UTC-7 Genevieve Segol wrote:
>
> You are right: rebuilding the <title> solved this problem.  Thank
> you for your help!
>
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 4:49:50 AM UTC-7 concave...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> try running this - i think its your <title> elements on the
> pages themselves
>
> se build-title .
> se build-toc .
>
>
> On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 3:20 AM Genevieve Segol
> <genevie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I removed the periods and rebuilt the toc, but I am still
> getting m-045 and s-021 for all chapters.  What is the problem?
> Thank you.
>
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 9:41:28 PM UTC-7 Vince wrote:
>
> See SEMOS 8.1.3

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.4/single-page#8.1.3>.

>
>
>> On May 5, 2022, at 11:00 PM, Genevieve Segol
>> <genevie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Lint returns the same three errors for the chapter
>> titles throughout the book : m-045, s-021 and t-065
>> (see ScreenShot1).  I followed the model given in
>> response to my question on April 26 (ScreenShot2).  Is
>> the period the problem?  It is in the scans
>> (ScreenShot3). My rationale for placing the period

>> /after/ </h2> and /before/ </h3> is that it does not

>> belong to the roman numeral but can be considered part
>> of the title.
>>
>> If you want me to remove the periods, is this an
>> Editorial commit?
>>
>> Thank you
>
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[Genevieve Segol]

Please explain this error (m-034) in the loi. I copied the example in 7.9.6 to create the file. I have four illustrations.

Thank you.

[B Keith]

What it is saying is that if you have an loi then you need metadata in the content.opf for the illustrator (ill)… just like the cover artist or a contributor

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e6fb60f7-691e-425d-b6bd-1b83a99e69a2n%40googlegroups.com.
<Screen Shot 2022-05-19 at 12.14.37.png><loi.xhtml>

[Robin Whittleton]

The error is in content.opf: you need to add a loi role to whoever did the illustrations.

On 19 May 2022, at 21:24, Genevieve Segol <genevie...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please explain this error (m-034) in the loi. I copied the example in 7.9.6 to create the file. I have four illustrations.

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[Genevieve Segol]

There is no artist I know of.  It is the fact-simile  of a document.  See example. There is not even a known translator.  The only name I can cite is the publisher j.b. Lippincott & co.

[Genevieve Segol]

sorry "fac-simile"

[B Keith]

Well would that imply the author was the illustrator? In that case add the ill to the author. Otherwise just add the exception to the se-lint-ignore.xml and someone will look at it during review

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[Genevieve Segol]

I don't think the author was the illustrator for the following reason.  The fourth illustration is supposed to be a summary of the information provided by three damaged documents, in English, in German, and in French, respectively.  The protagonists decided to write this summary in French in the original edition, and in English in the translated edition, with the switch made both in the text and in the illustration.

So, since I had named the publisher as translator, I also made him the illustrator.  If the reviewer has a better idea, I will change that.

[Genevieve Segol]

If a foreign word is included in quotation marks, followed by its definition, do I remove the quotation marks when I add the <i xml:lang=. . .tag?  The latter will turn the words to italics, and it seems to me that this is redundant emphasis.  Or do I omit the lang tag?

Note: the quotation marks are not always there, as shown in the attachment.

Thank you.

[Alex Cabal]

Yes, you would remove quotes and add italics with a language tag.

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[Genevieve Segol]

Should I change 'tho' to 'though'?  MW says it is informal; it does not say it is obsolete.

Thank you.

[François Grandjean]

It might depend on context. For example, I most likely wouldn’t change it if it is spoken.

[Genevieve Segol]

Another question:

As part of the modernize spelling exercise, the hyphen was removed from the yacht's sail names which became one word.  For example, main-sail became mainsail.  But now, I have this:

“He had covered his ship with canvas, and set his studding- and mainsails, that he might take advantage of the least breeze”

In the original, it was . . . and set his studding- and main-sails

How do I fix this?

Thank you.

[Alex Cabal]

You can change that to `though` unless it's part of an affected
colloquial dialogue

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[Alex Cabal]

That's fine, you can accept that change without further action

On 5/29/22 3:56 PM, Genevieve Segol wrote:
> Another question:
>
> As part of the modernize spelling exercise, the hyphen was removed from
> the yacht's sail names which became one word.  For example, main-sail
> became mainsail.  But now, I have this:

> “He had covered his ship with canvas, *and set his studding- and
> mainsails,* that he might take advantage of the least breeze”
>
> In the original, it was .*. . and set his studding- and main-sails*

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[Genevieve Segol]

In the attachment, should the comma following 'lemons' be after the em-dash?  This punctuation is consistent with the scans, but it looks funny to me.

Thank you.

[Alex Cabal]

Typogrify should remove that comma

On 5/31/22 12:39 AM, Genevieve Segol wrote:
> In the attachment, should the comma following 'lemons' be /after /the

> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e6fb60f7-691e-425d-b6bd-1b83a99e69a2n%40googlegroups.com

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[Genevieve Segol]

what is the proper pub-type for an opera?

I used <i epub:type="se:name.publication.opera">, which is rejected. 

Should I use "play"?

Thank you.

[David Grigg]

It's se:name.music.opera .

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[Genevieve Segol]

Submitted for review

https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott

Note:  In the first half of the book, there are a number of 'Spanish' terms when the story takes place in South America.  I added the 'es' language tag if I could ascertain it was a Spanish term, and 'und' otherwise (quite frequently).  I don't know if those 'und' words were part of a dialect, or no longer in use, or Jules Verne's invention.

Thank you.

[Alex Cabal]

Weijia, can you review this?

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/fe48dbf3-c0ed-4c85-80b5-d808d5604a53n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

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[Weijia Cheng]

Sure, I can review this.

[Weijia Cheng]

Alex, a question before I go further in the review: While skimming the commit history, I saw two commits that combined a spelling change with semantication (xml:lang attribution).

https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/commit/0d69c479b50294581e283b5ecbf48492533c8359

https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/commit/4ba436d1eb4514cb687e1fee26e7b6ac13b0192b

Is this OK or should the spelling change and the semantics be in two separate commits?

[Vince]

I am not Alex, but separate. Editorial and non-editorial commits should always be separate. This is now emphasized in the Step-by-Step guide (see the end of step 14).

[Alex Cabal]

Yes, they must be separate. If the changes are small then a rebase won't
be too hard.

On 6/6/22 9:11 PM, Vince wrote:
> I am not Alex, but separate. Editorial and non-editorial commits should
> always be separate. This is now emphasized in the Step-by-Step guide
> (see the end of step 14).
>
>> On Jun 6, 2022, at 8:25 PM, Weijia Cheng <weijia...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:weijia...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Alex, a question before I go further in the review: While skimming the
>> commit history, I saw two commits that combined a spelling change with
>> semantication (xml:lang attribution).
>>
>> https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/commit/0d69c479b50294581e283b5ecbf48492533c8359

>> <https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/commit/0d69c479b50294581e283b5ecbf48492533c8359>
>> https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/commit/4ba436d1eb4514cb687e1fee26e7b6ac13b0192b

>> <https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/commit/4ba436d1eb4514cb687e1fee26e7b6ac13b0192b>
>>
>> Is this OK or should the spelling change and the semantics be in two
>> separate commits?
>> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 6:18:19 PM UTC-7 Weijia Cheng wrote:
>>
>> Sure, I can review this.
>>
>> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 2:44:31 PM UTC-7 Alex Cabal wrote:
>>
>> Weijia, can you review this?
>>
>> On 6/5/22 2:44 PM, Genevieve Segol wrote:
>> > Submitted for review
>> >https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott
>> <https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott>
>> >
>> > Note:  In the first half of the book, there are a number of
>> 'Spanish'
>> > terms when the story takes place in South America.  I added
>> the 'es'
>> > language tag if I could ascertain it was a Spanish term, and
>> 'und'
>> > otherwise (quite frequently).  I don't know if those 'und'
>> words were
>> > part of a dialect, or no longer in use, or Jules Verne's
>> invention.
>> >
>> > Thank you.
>

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[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, I've started by filing an issue for these commits and one other I found that involve rebasing. It will be easier to do this first before we make any other changes, so I'll do the rest of my review after this is taken care of.

[Weijia Cheng]

Genevieve, do you have any thoughts on how you want to continue this? I gave some possibilities in the issue about how this can go forward. I think it would be a shame for your work over these last two months to go to waste, so if you really can't spare the time to do the rebase I could potentially pick this project up and finish the editing myself.

[Genevieve Segol]

Weijia,

I have not done anything yet because I am still mad about how idiotic the whole thing is.  I understand the rule of not mixing semantic changes and editorial changes, but when you have to make two commits for a single word (e.g., correcting a typo on Brittania and then adding the epub vessel info) the rule ought to be bent because it does not make any difference. It is process for process-sake. 

Alex is a despot who has surrounded himself with capable editors who wouldn’t dare questioning his decisions.   I will let you know this weekend if I decide to finish the project. That would entail a hard reset because your alternative method does not work with my set up. 

Regards 

Genevieve 

Sent from iPad

On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:28, Weijia Cheng <weijia...@gmail.com> wrote:

Genevieve, do you have any thoughts on how you want to continue this? I gave some possibilities in the issue about how this can go forward. I think it would be a shame for your work over these last two months to go to waste, so if you really can't spare the time to do the rebase I could potentially pick this project up and finish the editing myself.

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[Alex Cabal]

I don't think a hard reset is required - Weijia gave you detailed
instructions on how to start the process. The annoying part will be the
merge commits, but if you want to be sure you got it right then just
make a copy of your repo somewhere else, and when you're done with the
merge commits, do a diff against your backup and the current repo to
ensure everything looks the same.

The commit history is an important part of the ebook. People need to be
able to see exactly what we're changing, and to be able to review or
undo those changes in a reasonable way. When we mix editorial and
non-editorial commits it becomes very difficult to do this.

Commits are easy and free and it's OK to have many small commits, even
as small as just adding a period and nothing else. Nothing wrong with that.

Commit hygiene requires a change in mindset and careful attention to
both the state of your repository, and to what's in the current commit
you're about to make. It certainly is easier to cram a bunch of stuff
into one commit and call it a day, but if we're doing that, then why
bother maintaining a history at all?

On 6/15/22 1:03 PM, Genevieve Segol wrote:
> Weijia,
> I have not done anything yet because I am still mad about how idiotic
> the whole thing is.  I understand the rule of not mixing semantic
> changes and editorial changes, but when you have to make two commits for
> a single word (e.g., correcting a typo on Brittania and then adding the
> epub vessel info) the rule ought to be bent because it does not make any
> difference. It is process for process-sake.
> Alex is a despot who has surrounded himself with capable editors who
> wouldn’t dare questioning his decisions.   I will let you know this
> weekend if I decide to finish the project. That would entail a hard
> reset because your alternative method does not work with my set up.
>
> Regards
>
> Genevieve
> Sent from iPad
>
>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:28, Weijia Cheng <weijia...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Genevieve, do you have any thoughts on how you want to continue this?
>> I gave some possibilities in the issue about how this can go forward.
>> I think it would be a shame for your work over these last two months
>> to go to waste, so if you really can't spare the time to do the rebase
>> I could potentially pick this project up and finish the editing myself.
>>
>> On Monday, June 6, 2022 at 8:54:01 PM UTC-7 Weijia Cheng wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I've started by filing an issue

>> <https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/issues/1>

>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/5267DC4E-45D1-4BD5-9B43-3DAD789BFE2B%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

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[Genevieve Segol]

Weijia,

I have changed the "pick" to "edit" for the three commits you want to revise, but I don't know how to start the interactive rebase.  When I saved the editor, it created a file in the text folder called git-rebase-todo but there is nothing interactive about it. 

[Weijia Cheng]

Genevieve, I am not familiar with using Sublime Text for rebase, so all I could do is look up how other people have done it. Can you try following this guide? It seems to work for a lot of people.

[Spence]

So after you've saved this file, you can "continue" rebase. The "interactivity" makes more sense when everything is done through the terminal. Usually, you begin the rebase, which brings you to a screen (in the terminal) that allows you to edit the file with "pick", "edit", "squash", etc... then when you save everything, it continues the rebase. In this case, your text editor is sublime, which is a GUI app, which takes you out of the interactive flow for a second, but either way it would work exactly the same way. Technically it is interactive, because that file is basically asking you the question, "what do you want me to do in this rebase", and you just answer by editing there file which communicates to git your wishes. It just feels more end-to-end when it's all handled through the terminal. 

I didn't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure how started the rebase (like, I'm not sure if you're using git from the command line or some GUI app), and I therefore can't give you advice on how to continue the rebase. However, if you just use the same method that initiated the rebase, it should detect that a rebase is in progress (because it will notice the file) and then it will process the changes that you requested. You're basically saying, "Ok, git. I'm done editing the file, now please execute my instructions per what's in the file"

If you used the terminal to initiate the rebase, then just rerun the same command and it'll do what I said. 

One last thing... rebases are destructive operations. In other words they reduce information. That's not a bad thing per se, but I always create a copy of my branch before doing any rebase stuff. That way just in case I mess up, I will always a back up. Once you've confirmed everything is good and everything has been merged then it's safe to delete the duplicate branch. 

Btw, I love this project and even though I don't contribute, I read a lot of the books on here. Thanks to everyone who volunteers on this project.

[Alex Cabal]

Weijia, if the rebase is the last thing we have to address, would you
possibly be able to apply it up yourself so we can get this released?
You can clone the repo to your own Github account and apply the changes
there, and then we can use that instead, so we don't have to deal with
PRs on Genevieve's repo.

On 6/18/22 7:41 AM, Weijia Cheng wrote:
> Genevieve, I am not familiar with using Sublime Text for rebase, so all
> I could do is look up how other people have done it. Can you try
> following this guide

> <https://gist.github.com/geekmanager/9939cf67598efd409bc7>? It seems to

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[Weijia Cheng]

I would still need to do the rest of the review after the rebase. I filed the rebase first since I figured having more commits might make the rebase even more frustrating. I'm OK with finishing out the review and rebase myself if that's the best way to get this to completion.

[Alex Cabal]

Genevieve, are you interested in finishing this or should we take it off your hands?

[Genevieve Segol]

I would like to finish the project. I have been practicing the rebase on a toy project but I would rather leave that for the end, after whatever other corrections Weijia wants me to make. 

Genevieve 

Sent from iPad

On Jun 27, 2022, at 21:16, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:

Genevieve, are you interested in finishing this or should we take it off your hands?

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[Alex Cabal]

I suggest you go ahead and do the rebase now, as it'll be the most
difficult part, and the order of things doesn't really matter.

Remember to make a copy of the repo somewhere else on your computer, so
if things go wrong you can copy it back in. Once you're done, the
contents of the repos should be the same, and only the history will have
changed; so you can use something like `diff -r` to check if your backup
is identical to your rebased repo.

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[Weijia Cheng]

Alright, I'll do a full review when I have some time, and Genevieve can take care of the issues in whatever order she would like. I still would recommend doing the rebase first but the order isn't essential at all.

[Genevieve Segol]

I am done with the rebase (although I don't know if my method was orthodox).  I run again clean and lint and fixed one error.

[Weijia Cheng]

Genevieve, I looked at what you did and unfortunately I don't think it resolved our issue. If you look at your commit history, the commits that need to be rebased (0d69c479b50294581e283b5ecbf48492533c8359, 4ba436d1eb4514cb687e1fee26e7b6ac13b0192b, and 6c1b0043088e2957bcb494712c74188d3a5569cd) are unchanged in the commit history. What it seems you did is added new commits on top of the existing ones, but this doesn't resolve our issue because we need to rewrite the old commits to separate editorial from non-editorial changes.

I would recommend doing a hard reset to 1f864bb61a495acb289e4c7b8cb135f3c348a068, the commit where you previously left off (git reset --hard 1f864bb61a495acb289e4c7b8cb135f3c348a068) and a force push (git push --force) to get back to your previous state, then try rebasing again. (Note that this will get rid of the commits you created today to give you a clean start for your rebase.)

[Genevieve Segol]

Weijia,

Ok.  I did the hard reset and force push.

I think it is better that you take it over now.  I have wasted enough of your time and my time.  Please, make yourself the producer and finish the project.

Thank you.

[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, thank you for your patience Genevieve. I will take over and finish the project.

Best,

Weijia

[Weijia Cheng]

Alex, I have another question. When a word in quotation marks is changed to be in italics (and the quotation marks are removed) does that count as an editorial change? e.g. https://github.com/weijia-cheng/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott-2/commit/bbbd131b19dd6b58c29b5d1b7a4bf2827cab1f8f

[Alex Cabal]

Yes, you can put that in an editorial commit. In general if you're not
sure, make it editorial and we'll look at it. It's easy enough to remove
editorial from a commit message than it is to look through every history
item and add it if necessary.

On 6/30/22 8:29 AM, Weijia Cheng wrote:
> Alex, I have another question. When a word in quotation marks is changed
> to be in italics (and the quotation marks are removed) does that count
> as an editorial change? e.g.
> https://github.com/weijia-cheng/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott-2/commit/bbbd131b19dd6b58c29b5d1b7a4bf2827cab1f8f
>
> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 6:21:10 AM UTC-7 Weijia Cheng wrote:
>
> Ok, thank you for your patience Genevieve. I will take over and
> finish the project.
>
> Best,
> Weijia
>
> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 11:36:29 PM UTC-7
> genevie...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Weijia,
> Ok.  I did the hard reset and force push.
> I think it is better that you take it over now.  I have wasted
> enough of your time and my time.  Please, make yourself the
> producer and finish the project.
>
> Thank you.
>
> On Wednesday, June 29, 2022 at 6:40:49 PM UTC-7
> weijia...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Genevieve, I looked at what you did and unfortunately I
> don't think it resolved our issue. If you look at your
> commit history, the commits that need to be rebased
> (0d69c479b50294581e283b5ecbf48492533c8359

> <https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/commit/0d69c479b50294581e283b5ecbf48492533c8359>,
> 4ba436d1eb4514cb687e1fee26e7b6ac13b0192b
> <https://github.com/gsegol/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott/commit/4ba436d1eb4514cb687e1fee26e7b6ac13b0192b>,
> and 6c1b0043088e2957bcb494712c74188d3a5569cd
> <http://6c1b0043088e2957bcb494712c74188d3a5569cd>) are

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/C85B663F-BEA5-4F3E-9334-AD42F48AE4F5%40standardebooks.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer

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[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, this is going to be more complicated than I thought to finish, since there are actually a lot of commits where editorial quotation mark removals are mixed with non-editorial semantics changes. It will take me some time to rebase this and I will have to chip away at it in chunks.

[Weijia Cheng]

I think this is going to be something I come back to after I finish Dostoevsky. My sense is that the commit history is great up to the point where the language tags start being added, at which point lots of editorial changes are being mixed with non-editorial changes (mostly the quotation mark removal thing i mentioned before). I think that there are something like a dozen commits that have this issue, and instead of dealing with the headache of hundreds of merge commits I might just do a hard reset to some point and then manually reapply Genevieve's semantication changes with regexes. After that I'd proofread the book cover to cover. I don't think this is something I have time to tackle now.

[Genevieve Segol]

There is no reference list telling us what constitutes an editorial change.  Is everything that is not a semantic addition an editorial change?    For example, on May 22, I asked 

"f a foreign word is included in quotation marks, followed by its definition, do I remove the quotation marks when I add the <i xml:lang=. . .tag?  The latter will turn the words to italics, and it seems to me that this is redundant emphasis.  Or do I omit the lang tag?"

I was told to do remove the quotation marks,  but there was no mention/warning of this being an editorial change. In fact, I still would not know how to handle that.  Two separate commits: one for the tags, and one for removing the quotes? 

Given the number of such occurrences, one  might as well start the project from scratch.

[Vince]

Generally, changing content (changing spelling, fixing printing [not transcription] errors, changing punctuation, etc.) is editorial, changing formatting is not. Thus, adding a language tag is formatting and non-editorial, and so (in my productions, anyway) is changing a language “marker” from quotes to italics, or a book name from being quoted to our italic semantic tags, etc. Neither of those have ever come up as a problem in a review, by anyone, including Alex.

However, Alex's reply below was that such a change could be editorial; if so, that is news to me. If we’re going to start calling stuff like that editorial, then I agree we need some guidelines in the manual for what constitutes editorial, because that muddies the waters considerably.

Note that the issue here is not whether to label the commit as editorial or not (which is easy to change), the issue is unknowingly mixing non-editorial and editorial changes in a single commit (which is not easy to change). Without a clear explanation and understanding of which is which, the odds of them being mixed are greatly increased.

[Alex Cabal]

I guess the operating word in my reply was "could", in the sense that if
you're unsure, just mark it editorial and we'll look at it during
review. It's harmless to do that, as opposed to NOT doing that, which
could end up confusing the history and making review harder. In general,
default to more, and smaller, editorial commits.

Does that mean they "must" be editorial? No, and that was poor phrasing
on my part. Because nothing is clear cut in literature, there isn't a
clear cut rule for what is or isn't editorial. Would removing quotes
from a non-English word, that in context is being introduced as a term,
in favor of italics, change the meaning of the text? Probably not,
because there's not many other ways to interpret that context, so it
MIGHT NOT have to be editorial. (But it COULD be!) Might removing quotes
in favor of italics possibly change the meaning in OTHER contexts? It's
certainly possible, and in those cases it SHOULD be editorial.

Regardless of editorial, commit hygiene is all about "units of work"
which are easy to review and undo. When a whole bunch of work is
committed in one big commit, it's hard to see what's going on and even
harder to tease it apart if we must.

I think that's the more important point than editorial or not. If one
forgets to mark something as editorial, then it's not the end of the
world if one's commit hygiene was good, and the commits are small,
isolated units of work that can be inspected and reasoned about. In that
case, we can easily go back and add editorial during review.

But when commits become huge swaths of various changes including
pretty-printing and whatever else, then things get really tough.

In this particular case, I haven't looked at the history. Weijia, if it
makes your job easier to let a few less controversial changes squeak
through unmarked, then OK. But in almost all of these cases it's just a
judgment call, with the workload of an interested reviewer 10 years from
now in mind.

On 6/30/22 9:33 PM, Vince wrote:
> Generally, changing content (changing spelling, fixing printing [not
> transcription] errors, changing punctuation, etc.) is editorial,
> changing formatting is not. Thus, adding a language tag is formatting
> and non-editorial, and so (in my productions, anyway) is changing a
> language “marker” from quotes to italics, or a book name from being
> quoted to our italic semantic tags, etc. Neither of those have ever come
> up as a problem in a review, by anyone, including Alex.
>
> However, Alex's reply below was that such a change could be editorial;
> if so, that is news to me. If we’re going to start calling stuff like
> that editorial, then I agree we need some guidelines in the manual for
> what constitutes editorial, because that muddies the waters considerably.
>
> Note that the issue here is not whether to label the commit as editorial
> or not (which is easy to change), the issue is unknowingly mixing

> non-editorial and editorial changes in a single commit (which is /not/

> easy to change). Without a clear explanation and understanding of which
> is which, the odds of them being mixed are greatly increased.
>
>> On Jun 30, 2022, at 8:17 PM, Genevieve Segol <genevie...@gmail.com

>> <mailto:genevie...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> There is no reference list telling us what constitutes an editorial
>> change.  Is everything that is not a semantic addition an editorial
>> change?    For example, on May 22, I asked
>> "f a foreign word is included in quotation marks, followed by its
>> definition, do I remove the quotation marks when I add the <i
>> xml:lang=. . .tag?  The latter will turn the words to italics, and it
>> seems to me that this is redundant emphasis.  Or do I omit the lang tag?"
>>
>> I was told to do remove the quotation marks,  but there was no
>> mention/warning of this being an editorial change. In fact, I still
>> would not know how to handle that.  Two separate commits: one for the
>> tags, and one for removing the quotes?
>>
>> Given the number of such occurrences, one  might as well start the
>> project from scratch.
>>
>> On Thursday, June 30, 2022 at 5:52:15 PM UTC-7 weijia...@gmail.com

>> <http://gmail.com/>wrote:

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[Vince]

Right, as I said, what to call a commit isn’t the problem here. Changing the commit message is easy, either way. That isn’t the issue. The issue is when we don’t know what is and isn’t editorial, then it’s too easy to end up with a commit containing both.

I understand commit hygiene. But, keeping with this example, going through a book and handling italics is a unit of work. Changing a play name from a quote to an italic, adding semantics to an existing non-English italic, removing an italic from a non-English word in M-W, converting from italics to emphasis, changing a non-English phrase from quotes to italics, is all going to be done in the same commit, because it’s all handling italics.

There is no context in which any of that is editorial, based on what’s been explained to date (prior to this conversation). It all falls under “formatting”. So if it’s “certainly possible” that any of that could/should be (editorial), then we’re going to have to be a lot clearer, not just about that particular situation, but about what we consider editorial in general.

Unfortunately, this isn’t a place for subjectivity. There’s too much at stake. Rebasing and splitting commits is a giant hassle, and triply so for most of our contributors, who don’t have a lot of (or in some cases any) experience with git. With wishy-washy definitions of what is and isn’t editorial, then "commit hygiene" isn’t going to prevent a problem. If we’re going to require separate commits for editorial and non-editorial (which I’m fine with, at least up until now), then we have to be crystal clear about what is editorial and what isn’t. Which, until now, I thought we were.

We have been explicit, at least on the list, about spelling changes and other changes to the text (e.g. capitalization changes, fixing assumed printing errors, updating punctuation, and so forth) being editorial. If there’s anything else that can be considered editorial, then we need some clear explanations and examples for what those would be. And all of it needs to be in the manual and/or the step-by-step. We can’t hold ourselves and others accountable for something we haven’t clearly explained beforehand.

[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, it seems to me that I have some discretion over what needs to be marked as editorial in the commit history, and I would say that the quotation-to-italics changes are sufficiently unambiguous in this case to keep them. (If I had to go back and change them, it would be about as easy to restart the whole project from scratch at this point.) I'm going to stick to rebasing out issues that are clearly mixed changes, in which case I can finish this project on a much shorter timescale.

[Alex Cabal]

On 6/30/22 11:26 PM, Vince wrote:
> I understand commit hygiene. But, keeping with this example, going
> through a book and handling italics is a unit of work. Changing a play
> name from a quote to an italic, adding semantics to an existing
> non-English italic, removing an italic from a non-English word in M-W,
> converting from italics to emphasis, changing a non-English phrase from
> quotes to italics, is all going to be done in the same commit, because
> it’s all handling italics.

I disagree here. You listed 4 distinct operations. Each could - and
should - be in its own commit. There's no reason to lump them all into
"format italics," precisely because it's harder to reason about for the
person inspecting the history later.

I know you want a firm answer on the subject, but the nature of
literature is that it's fuzzy and ambiguous; and the meaning of things,
and what does or doesn't change that meaning, is never going to be able
be codified in a rigorous way. I wish it could be, because I'd have a
lot fewer questions to answer on this list!

The best answer I can give is that if you feel like it's a material
change to the source text, then mark it as editorial; if you feel that
in 10 years a purist reviewing the history would want to undo what you
did, then mark as editorial; and if in doubt, mark as editorial. If one
does that, and maintains an easy to follow and tidy git history, then
it's easy to go back and edit commit messages if the reviewer disagrees.

At its core, this thread isn't about editorial vs. non-editorial. It's
about keeping a clean git history of small distinct units of work. If
that had happened in this case, it would have been a matter of seconds
to edit a commit message to add (or remove) [Editorial] to some unit of
work. But, when we start mixing a whole bunch of stuff together into one
commit, it becomes very difficult and we end up in these kinds of
quagmires. Doubly so because Git works on lines and our lines are full
paragraphs, so in our particular case solving merge commits becomes
especially tedious.

The takeaway is: commit small units of work, very often, in organized
and digestible chunks. There is no minimum size for a commit - I very
frequently make commits of changing just one character - and often mark
those as editorial!

[B Keith]

Just to stick my nose in I think its also about designing a hybrid workflow that combines editorial (in the traditional book publishing sense) and good coding. My instinct is to generally be pretty linear and want to make changes chapter by chapter en masse. I’ve had to curb that and mark-up changes as I read, rather than actually making them so I can divide them into distinct commits. For “beginners” I think this can be somewhat counter-intuitive, seemingly a pain-in-the-ass and hard to remember to do.

Problems like these are going to increase as we get more and more volunteers and the manual gets more and more complex. I find myself missing the old days when the manual was much simpler and things were pretty black and white. Some of the basic theory behind “why" is on my to do list for my “beginners guide"



_________

Guadeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

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[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, I believe I've done all of the rebasing and revising necessary. Alex, this is ready for you on a new repository: https://github.com/weijia-cheng/jules-verne_in-search-of-the-castaways_j-b-lippincott-2

[Alex Cabal]

OK, excellent. I've gone ahead and released it. Thanks Genevieve for
putting it together and special thanks to Weijia for taking it over the
finish line!

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