Vicomte de Bragelonne

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Vince

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Mar 24, 2022, 1:54:19 PMMar 24
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Now that Twenty Years After is in review, I’m starting on this. It has 269 chapters; do we want to use roman or decimal for them?

Alex Cabal

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Mar 24, 2022, 1:55:27 PMMar 24
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We can do decimal for those

On 3/24/22 12:54 PM, Vince wrote:
> Now that /Twenty Years After/ is in review, I’m starting on this. It has
> 269 chapters; do we want to use roman or decimal for them?
>
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Vince

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May 15, 2022, 12:52:50 AMMay 15
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I think I’ve asked this before on an individual basis, but if we have a foreign word (that’s not in M-W) that has a common English sound-alike (that is), we can either leave the foreign word and tag it, or change the spelling to the English spelling. As a general rule, do we want to do the latter?

E.g., “…we have seen her at the Louvre with her mother, wanting wood, wanting bread, and fed by the coadjuteur and the parliament.”

Coadjuteur is the French version of coadjutor, and is italicized in the source. I can leave it and tag it, or change it to coadjutor. But this is just an example; I’m going to hit more of these as I go through. Do we have a general rule?

B Timothy Keith

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May 15, 2022, 11:13:19 AMMay 15
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One of the things I’ve taken to doing is opening the book in Thorium Reader and use the voice feature to decide if it sounds right. AFAIK the tagging is purely fine for accessibility reasons so it makes sense to check the user experience to help decide if it is a distraction or an enhancement.

But that’s just me

Bruce

B Timothy Keith
--a la iphone!

> On May 14, 2022, at 9:52 PM, Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>
> I think I’ve asked this before on an individual basis, but if we have a foreign word (that’s not in M-W) that has a common English sound-alike (that is), we can either leave the foreign word and tag it, or change the spelling to the English spelling. As a general rule, do we want to do the latter?
>
> E.g., “…we have seen her at the Louvre with her mother, wanting wood, wanting bread, and fed by the coadjuteur and the parliament.”
>
> Coadjuteur is the French version of coadjutor, and is italicized in the source. I can leave it and tag it, or change it to coadjutor. But this is just an example; I’m going to hit more of these as I go through. Do we have a general rule?
>
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Alex Cabal

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May 15, 2022, 4:27:04 PMMay 15
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Since it's spelled in the French way, I'd leave it italicized.

Vince

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May 15, 2022, 6:23:28 PMMay 15
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Yes, definitely, if we leave it it would be italicized. I just didn’t know if we wanted to change it to the English (only when sound-alike) spelling in these cases.

I’ll leave them as is. Thanks!

Vince

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May 16, 2022, 8:53:05 PMMay 16
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Alex, there’s a reference to a bidet, which is a horse, not a bathroom appliance. It’s italicized in the scans, but, although it is a French horse, it’s not really a French word in the sense that you can look up bidet in a French dictionary and find a reference to the horse (you get the same thing you would get if you looked up bidet in an English dictionary).

…the messenger of Louis XIV, we say, quitted the post and purchased a bidet of the meanest appearance, one of those animals which an officer of cavalry would never choose, for fear of being disgraced.

The linked article has the background. What should I do with it? It probably needs to be italicized so they don’t think it’s the bathroom appliance, but I wasn’t sure about tagging it as French since it’s kind of a made-up word. One option would be to make an editorial addition: “…purchased a bidet horse…”.

Alex Cabal

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May 16, 2022, 9:24:26 PMMay 16
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I would italicize it as French because it's a kind of French horse
presumably meant to be pronounced in that way.

On 5/16/22 7:52 PM, Vince wrote:
> Alex, there’s a reference to a /bidet/, which is a horse
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_horse>, not a bathroom appliance.
> It’s italicized in the scans, but, although it is a French horse, it’s
> not really a French /word/ in the sense that you can look up bidet in a
> French dictionary and find a reference to the horse (you get the same
> thing you would get if you looked up bidet in an English dictionary).
>
> …the messenger of Louis XIV, we say, quitted the post and purchased
> a /bidet/ of the meanest appearance, one of those animals which an
> officer of cavalry would never choose, for fear of being disgraced.
>
>
> The linked article has the background. What should I do with it? It
> probably needs to be italicized so they don’t think it’s the bathroom
> appliance, but I wasn’t sure about tagging it as French since it’s kind
> of a made-up word. One option would be to make an editorial addition:
> “…purchased a bidet horse…”.
>
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Vince

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May 21, 2022, 12:56:45 AMMay 21
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Alex, what are your thoughts on this one?

Two men are having a conversation; the above is “said” by one of the men. However, the first sentence is said to himself, the second is to the man. That is not clear at all from the translation. The original French has:

«Voilà, se dit-il, un homme qui me tend un piège...»
— Ainsi, monsieur, reprit-il, vous voudriez retirer cette somme, à ce que je comprends?

which Google translates to

Here, he said to himself, is a man laying a trap for me…
"So, sir," he continued, "you would like to withdraw this sum, as I understand it?"

The transcription made a half-hearted attempt to correct it by adding “to himself” after “said he," but that only succeeds in changing the object of the confusion since it still didn’t separate the two sentences.

“Here is a man,” said he to himself, “who is laying a snare for me. So you wish to withdraw this money, Monsieur,” replied he, “as I understand?”

To me, those two sentences need to be separated, as they are in the original French. The question is how.

I would normally make the first sentence a <q>, but it would be unique (so far, anyway) to this situation, because generally their thoughts are quoted. (This is the first time in all three books I’ve encountered a paragraph with an undifferentiated mixture of thoughts and spoken words.)

<q>Here</q>, he said to himself, <q>is a man laying a trap for me…</q> “So, sir,” he continued, “you would like to withdraw this sum, as I understand it?"

Or, I could make them separate paragraphs.

“Here is a man,” said he to himself, “who is laying a snare for me.”
“So you wish to withdraw this money, Monsieur,” replied he, “as I understand?”

Or I could keep them the same paragraph, but quote each sentence separately.

“Here is a man,” said he to himself, “who is laying a snare for me.” “So you wish to withdraw this money, Monsieur,” replied he, “as I understand?”

I think it should one of the three: leaving it as it’s transcribed is too confusing, IMO. What do you think?

Alex Cabal

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May 21, 2022, 1:28:36 PMMay 21
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I think italics would be clearest, because making them separate
paragraphs might confuse the reader into thinking a new person is
speaking. However if the rest of the book's internal thoughts aren't in
italics then it would stand out. You could either go back and make all
thoughts italics - don't know if it's too late for that - or I suppose
we could just add the closing quote like you suggest and leave it all on
one line.
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Vince

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May 21, 2022, 4:04:42 PMMay 21
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It’s not too late if we want to make them italics; I’m relatively early in the proofing process. It will be inconsistent with the other two books, though, so I’ll go back and do PR’s for them later to bring them in line. NBD. (Until this issue, the “keep them quotes if they’re quoted” part of the manual applied.) I kind of like the consistency of internal thoughts being italics, anyway.

Alex Cabal

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May 21, 2022, 5:24:29 PMMay 21
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OK, sounds good.

Vince

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Jul 2, 2022, 2:50:32 PM (3 days ago) Jul 2
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“…situated under the trees of the great Place, they took their repast…”

“Place” there is the French word for square, not the English “place”. It is, I believe, needlessly capitalized, so that it looks like a place name (no pun intended or implied), which we would not tag. But the French has “le grande place,” which just means (I believe) “the main square”. There are another couple of instances where the word is used as just “…the Place…”, without even the “great”, again just referring to the square of whatever town they’re in.

The first question is whether it should be tagged as French, since it’s standing alone and is just referring to a generic square, rather than a particular one, e.g. Place de Grève.
The second one is whether it should be lowercased, for the same reason.

I’m inclined to both, but wanted to check. (The better, but unanswerable, question is why didn’t the translation use “square” in these instances since it’s not referring to a particular one?)

François Grandjean

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Jul 2, 2022, 5:09:49 PM (2 days ago) Jul 2
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“Place” can have several meanings, but in this context it does indeed mean square. It used to be common for the main square of a town or city to be referred to simply as “la grande place”. This is less common nowadays that every square has a proper name attached to it, although some cities do keep it for historical purposes, e.g., the Grand Place in Brussels—note the old-timey lack of final e for “Grand”, eschewing the regular usage that an adjective takes the gender of the name.

The trick here is whether “la grande place” is a proper name or not. I’ve seen a bit of everything: “la grande place”, “la grande Place”, “la Grande Place”. For what it’s worth, the original French text here use “la grande place”—probably the reason why “grande” was translated to “great”. I’m not entirely sure but it seems like an English thing to turn the name of the location into a proper name given its use.

Hope that helps!

Vince

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Jul 2, 2022, 6:50:29 PM (2 days ago) Jul 2
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Thanks, François. As I said, there is no indication it’s referring to a place name à la Place de Grève, and several indications it is not (not limited to but including the fact that “great” is not capitalized in the translation). And, just “Place,” without the “great” and in one instance (discovered since I left the original message) without the capitalization, is also used, so regardless of what is determined about “great Place,” the questions would still remain about those.

Alex Cabal

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Jul 2, 2022, 7:24:06 PM (2 days ago) Jul 2
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If it's just referring to a generic square, then you can lowercase it
without italics. The words are so similar in meaning and identical in
spelling that it would be confusing to give it italics.

On 7/2/22 5:50 PM, Vince wrote:
> Thanks, François. As I said, there is no indication it’s referring to a
> place name à la Place de Grève, and several indications it is not (not
> limited to but including the fact that “great” is not capitalized in the
> translation). And, just “Place,” without the “great” and in one instance
> (discovered since I left the original message) without the
> capitalization, is also used, so regardless of what is determined about
> “great Place,” the questions would still remain about those.
>
>> On Jul 2, 2022, at 4:09 PM, François Grandjean
>> <francois....@gmail.com <mailto:francois....@gmail.com>>
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François Grandjean

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Jul 2, 2022, 7:25:17 PM (2 days ago) Jul 2
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Indeed. And since Dumas, who is a relatively recent writer, didn’t bother to capitalise the name, it doesn’t seem to indicate anything special other than being the main square.

Vince

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Jul 4, 2022, 7:44:22 PM (21 hours ago) Jul 4
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Wrapping this up.

There are endnotes, two of which are translator endnotes, but the rest appear to have been added by the transcribers: they are not in the scans of the edition used for the transcription, and I have not found them in three other edition scans I’ve used for reference, either.

The question is where to put the ann role. I can put it on the translator for the two they did, but there are three transcribers: do I add it to all of them, or just David Widger, or…?

Alex Cabal

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Jul 4, 2022, 7:51:22 PM (20 hours ago) Jul 4
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Are they interesting enough to even keep? If so, then I suppose you can
add it to all of them, since we don't know who did it.
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Vince

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Jul 4, 2022, 8:01:30 PM (20 hours ago) Jul 4
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This is ready for review. At 720K words, it’s not up to Pepys or Clarissa standards, but it’s hefty chunk nonetheless. There are several se ignores: it flags D’Artagnan where it appears at the beginning of a title, and several instances of “de La <surname>”, where that is the correct capitalization.

I brought in an introduction from a different (PD) edition that I thought was interesting; it’s easy enough to remove if you disagree.

Alex Cabal

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12:42 AM (16 hours ago) 12:42 AM
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Bruce, if you're back do you have time to review this?

Alex Cabal

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12:44 AM (16 hours ago) 12:44 AM
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Vince do you have a link to your repo?

On 7/4/22 7:01 PM, Vince wrote:

B Keith

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9:11 AM (7 hours ago) 9:11 AM
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If you give me the rest of the week to clear some stuff up :-)
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Vince Rice

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9:47 AM (6 hours ago) 9:47 AM
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Oops! Of course.


On Jul 4, 2022, at 11:44 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:

Vince do you have a link to your repo?

Alex Cabal

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10:44 AM (6 hours ago) 10:44 AM
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Take your time!
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