[Possible project] Histories by Herodotus

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Hello. Now that Udolpho has been released, I would like to work in another project. I have several books in mind, but the one that I'm most interest in is Histories by Herodotus, translated by G. C. Macaulay:

Gutenberg (Vol. 1)

Gutenberg (Vol. 2)

Internet Archive (Vol. 1)

Internet Archive (Vol. 2)

I understand that history books are usually not accepted, but I fell that this work is itself of historical significance, and would fall in the same category as Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and The Secret History.

How does the project feel about this? Not wanted? Wanted but out of my expertise? Or something else?

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

We'd accept it as a classic from antiquity. However it will be a very
complex production. Also we need to decide on a translator. AD Godley
completed a revised translation in 1926 for Loeb which is a very
respected series. How does Macaulay compare?

On 2/5/24 2:02 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> Hello. Now that /Udolpho /has been released, I would like to work in

> another project. I have several books in mind, but the one that I'm most

> interest in is /Histories /by Herodotus, translated by G. C. Macaulay:
>
> Gutenberg (Vol. 1) <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2707>
> Gutenberg (Vol. 2) <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2456>
> Internet Archive (Vol. 1)
> <https://archive.org/details/historyofherodot0001geor_k1m8/mode/2up>
> Internet Archive (Vol. 2)
> <https://archive.org/details/1914historyofhe02hero/mode/2up>

>
> I understand that history books are usually not accepted, but I fell
> that this work is itself of historical significance, and would fall in

> the same category as /Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire/ and /The
> Secret History./
> /
> /

> How does the project feel about this? Not wanted? Wanted but out of my
> expertise? Or something else?
>
> -Hendrik
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6a5c732a-dad9-497c-a66c-9400e5f959c9n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6a5c732a-dad9-497c-a66c-9400e5f959c9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I don't speak greek, so I can't tell which translation is more accurate to the original work. I found the Godley translation in wikisource (translated as The Persian Wars), which seems to have cut the footnotes found in the original edition. The Macaulay edition from PG keeps the footnotes, although the greek text from the original publication is transliterated to latin characters (which I think should be easy enough to change, if desired).

So the Macaulay translation seems the best one to work with, if we want the most "complete" transcription. Google didn't tell me that one is significantly better than the other, so I would go with Macaulay.

Should I proceed, or is Godley preffered? If neither is than maybe I can leave this project for another date.

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

This is something to research based on scholarly and critical opinion.
The editions are sure to differ, the question is which one do most
people think is the best?

Endnotes are not original to the text, they were added by some previous
translator or editor.

On 2/5/24 2:55 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> I don't speak greek, so I can't tell which translation is more accurate
> to the original work. I found the Godley translation in wikisource

> (translated as /The Persian Wars/), which seems to have cut the

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6a5c732a-dad9-497c-a66c-9400e5f959c9n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6a5c732a-dad9-497c-a66c-9400e5f959c9n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6a5c732a-dad9-497c-a66c-9400e5f959c9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/6a5c732a-dad9-497c-a66c-9400e5f959c9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/07b49c51-84a5-4172-ae9e-fb06634845d1n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/07b49c51-84a5-4172-ae9e-fb06634845d1n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Vince]

I looked into this a bit when I was looking at Thucydides (which, yes, I still need to finish). The best writeup I found (but I was by no means exhaustive in searching) was in a note on translation from yet another edition in the late 1940’s. (Which is freely available on IA … why?</rhetorical))

In short, he said Macaulay was the “most painstaking” and “most accurate,” but very uneven in tone.

He likes Godley’s style (“most felicitous that has yet appeared), but not his accuracy (“heinous, and often elementary, errors are unduly frequent”).

The link above is to the two-page layout that discuss both, but he discusses all the others previous as well.

[Vince]

The endnotes (which fortunately are endnotes, which will make the transition to SE a lot easier) are Macaulay’s, and, if that edition is chosen, should (IMO) absolutely be converted back to Greek, but doing that will definitely not be “easy enough” (the experience of typing in several hundred Greek endnotes for Gibbon talking). The typing isn’t necessarily that hard, but it’s tedious, and proofing them is difficult and error-prone. Lint has new additions since I did Gibbon to make some obvious errors easier to catch/correct, but it’s still hard to get right. (A lot of those diacritics look similar at the sizes they’re printed in the scans, so you have to enlarge the scans, and probably your font in the text editor, and …)

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I tried looking for sourced on the differences between translations and it seems that although both are good, Macaulay's seems to be more accurate, with the exception some passages that were bowdlerized; however it seems that those are not the majority of the text and the translation still has value. Godley, according to some of these papers, seems to be somewhat inconsistent in style.

The papers I found are these:

CULLIS, Stephen J.; The Visions of Xerxes in Book VII of the Histories of Herodotus: A comparative analysis of 19th, 20th and 21st Century translations of some excerpts of Herodotus; The Journal of Nagasaki University of Foreign Studies; nº 26; 2022
MACKENDRICK, Paul; Herodotus: The Making of a World Historian; The Classical Weekly, vol. 47; nº 10; pp 145-152; 1954
TATE, J.; Herodotus in Jacobean Dress: Herodotus Translated by J. Enoch Powell; The Classical Review, Vol. 2, nº 1, pp 23-24
WILLET, Steven J.; Catching Xerxes' Tears in English: The Styles of Herodotean Translation; Arion; 3rd Series; vol. 8; nº 1; pp 119-143; 2000

I would go with Macaulay based on what I read, but will work with Godley if the editor thinks it best.

Also, I think I didn't expressed myself well when I said "original edition" in regards with the footnotes. I'm aware that the original text didn't have them, and they were added by later translators and editors; I meant original edition as in the original of the translations of Macaulay and Godley.  When I said easy I meant that probably wouldn't require any advanced skills to get right, just that it would take a long time (which I don't mind that much, I find it somewhat relaxing.)

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

OK, let's proceed with Macaulay's version then.

> <https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.16865/page/n33/mode/2up> from yet another edition in the late 1940’s. (Which is freely available on IA … why?</rhetorical))

>
> In short, he said Macaulay was the “most painstaking” and “most
> accurate,” but very uneven in tone.
> He likes Godley’s style (“most felicitous that has yet appeared),
> but not his accuracy (“heinous, and often elementary, errors are
> unduly frequent”).
>
> The link above is to the two-page layout that discuss both, but he
> discusses all the others previous as well.
>
>
>> On Feb 5, 2024, at 2:56 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is something to research based on scholarly and critical
>> opinion. The editions are sure to differ, the question is which
>> one do most people think is the best?
>>
>> Endnotes are not original to the text, they were added by some
>> previous translator or editor.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a7acac2b-8b9d-4da2-bfcf-516baeae5892n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a7acac2b-8b9d-4da2-bfcf-516baeae5892n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Here's the repo (without the Gutenberg license this time!). A few questions:

- In this edition, the chapters are named like this: "BOOK I. THE FIRST BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED CLIO" which I guess we will want to change, maybe to "Book I<br /> Clio"?

- As I said in the thread, PG has changed text in greek to latin characters, should I change? (I'm in favor of restoring the greek text)

-The preface seems to have two endnotes not present in the scans, should they be removed?

- The scans from Internet Archive have some extra text (mainly present in the margin) which serves as an abstract of the section in which they appear, should it be restored or not?

Also, I'm thinking about using this painting for a cover. It is not my first choice, but I couldn't find public domain proof for the others. I am also open to suggestions.

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

Robin can you manage this with Weijia reviewing?

> - In this edition, the chapters are named like this: "BOOK I. THE FIRST
> BOOK OF THE HISTORIES, CALLED CLIO" which I guess we will want to
> change, maybe to "Book I<br /> Clio"?

Yes

>
> - As I said in the thread, PG has changed text in greek to latin
> characters, should I change? (I'm in favor of restoring the greek text)

Yes

> -The preface seems to have two endnotes not present in the scans, should
> they be removed?

If they're interesting you can keep them, they are probably from a
different edition

>
> - The scans from Internet Archive have some extra text (mainly present
> in the margin) which serves as an abstract of the section in which they

> appear, should it be restored or not?Screenshot from 2024-02-06 15-56-20.png

No

> Also, I'm thinking about using this

> <https://cyfrowe.mnw.art.pl/en/catalog/442741> painting for a cover. It

> is not my first choice, but I couldn't find public domain proof for the
> others. I am also open to suggestions.

That works

[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, I will review.

[Robin Whittleton]

Will manage, yep.

-Robin

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e95d6832-edb6-41c4-bf27-4b6ccdd41435%40standardebooks.org.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Besides my previous questions, I have two more:

- Both the scans and the PG version have numbering in the beginning of paragraphs, should they be kept or removed?

- They are a large number of endnotes, and they reset their numbering in each new book. Should I keep them like this, change them to continue from the last number of the previous chapter, or add the chapter to their number (so endnote 1 from book 2 would become endnote 2-1)?

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

On the paragraph numbering, my instinct would be to remove them: I assume it’s to provide something later scholars can reference, but our goal is to make books tailored for reading instead of referencing. But do you have an alternate opinion Alex? This is one of those things to get right from the start.

The endnotes can go right through rather than reset for each book.

-Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/575ef25b-422c-41bf-9ad5-e3d6ac6d260an%40googlegroups.com.

[Alex Cabal]

The endnotes make lots of references to the numbers (calling them
"chapters") so we may have to keep them for the endnotes to make any sense.

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e95d6832-edb6-41c4-bf27-4b6ccdd41435%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e95d6832-edb6-41c4-bf27-4b6ccdd41435%40standardebooks.org>.

>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

>> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/575ef25b-422c-41bf-9ad5-e3d6ac6d260an%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/575ef25b-422c-41bf-9ad5-e3d6ac6d260an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/443611DC-9F75-4739-9915-5D0AB7825D06%40reala.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/443611DC-9F75-4739-9915-5D0AB7825D06%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I started to clean the endnotes and thought so too. I will keep the chapter numbering in the text itself, and will remove only the numbering from the endnotes (since it will be numbering according to their position on the inside the <ol> element.)

Do I make the ids of the endnotes follow one order? I thought that it would be better, for organizational purposes to have their id be something like "note-CHAPTER-n".

Do I put links to the chapters as they appear in the endnotes? It would be significantly more work, but if will make the production better I can do it.

Also, do I keep the chapters numbers as they are or change them somehow (make them bold, italic, superscript, etc.)?

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Yes, keep the numbering in the text, and rely on ol in the endnotes.

We have endnote renumbering tools that expect the standard format. I’d keep it normal just in case you need to make changes later on. Obviously each endnote will link back to the chapter, so you’ll be able to see where they’re going easily.

If the endnote references something then yes, I’d link it. You can see an example of this in Pepys’ Diary endnote #5. It does definitely add work I’m afraid.

I’d mark the section numbers up in some way, then we can decide on styling later. I can’t see anything in the epub spec or z39.98 that’d be suitable semantics, so let’s give them a common structure for an id: you’ll need that to point to them anyway. So something like id=“number-book-x-section-y”? We can either style that directly later ([id^=number-]) or at least find and replace it with some other choice.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a4ea87f7-8058-46aa-a12b-b9269590d704n%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Understood. For now, I have styled the chapter numbers as:

.chapter {

    font-weight: bold;

}

And have given each an id like this: <span class="chapter" id="chapter-1-n">n.</span>

I think this is the most organized way to work with the text. If necessary, further styling can be done

-Hendrik

[Erin]

Robin, since you said you didn't find anything in the epub spec for the section numbers, maybe it's worth comparing Principia Ethica, where we used epub:type="ordinal", formatting the sections as follows:

<section id="chapter-1-n">

                <p id="chapter-1-n-p-1"><span epub:type="ordinal">n</span>.

...

</section>

(For Herodotus `chapter` above would be replaced by `book`; "chapter" appears above because in Principia Ethica the highest-level sections had epub:type="chapter".)

Not every <p> had an id, only the ones to which the endnotes linked. To me it makes more sense for the id to be an attribute of the <p>, not of the <span>, because the endnotes refer to the contents of the <p>, not the contents of the <span>. 

If you wanted to add a chapter semantic to the sections then I assume you'd just use epub:type="chapter" as in Beyond Good and Evil, not a class.

To avoid confusion about the word "chapter", this is how a combination of the approaches used in Principia Ethica and Beyond Good and Evil would look for Herodotus:

 

<section id="book-1-n" epub:type="chapter">

                <p id="book-1-n-p-1"><span epub:type="ordinal">n</span>.

...

</section>

If you give the sections epub:type="chapter", you would presumably also need to change the epub:type on the highest-level section from "chapter" to "part"; currently what appears is <section id="book-N" epub:type="chapter">.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Hello. I managed to clean the endnotes links, and plan now to continue restoring the greek text. I already did a few, but realized that I didn't commit as [Editorial]; should I? (I can rename the commits, but would rather do it right from the beginning.)

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

Restoring to the transcription is not editorial

On 2/8/24 5:12 AM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> Hello. I managed to clean the endnotes links, and plan now to continue
> restoring the greek text. I already did a few, but realized that I
> didn't commit as [Editorial]; should I? (I can rename the commits, but
> would rather do it right from the beginning.)
>
> -Hendrik
> Em quarta-feira, 7 de fevereiro de 2024 às 17:21:02 UTC-3, Erin escreveu:
>
> Robin, since you said you didn't find anything in the epub spec for
> the section numbers, maybe it's worth comparing Principia Ethica

> <https://github.com/standardebooks/g-e-moore_principia-ethica/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml>, where we used epub:type="ordinal", formatting the sections as follows:

>
> <section id="chapter-1-n">
>                 <p id="chapter-1-n-p-1"><span
> epub:type="ordinal">n</span>.
> ...
> </section>
>
> (For Herodotus `chapter` above would be replaced by `book`;
> "chapter" appears above because in Principia Ethica the
> highest-level sections had epub:type="chapter".)
>
> Not every <p> had an id, only the ones to which the endnotes linked.
> To me it makes more sense for the id to be an attribute of the <p>,
> not of the <span>, because the endnotes refer to the contents of the
> <p>, not the contents of the <span>.
>
> If you wanted to add a chapter semantic to the sections then I
> assume you'd just use epub:type="chapter" as in Beyond Good and Evil

> <https://github.com/standardebooks/friedrich-nietzsche_beyond-good-and-evil_helen-zimmern/blob/master/src/epub/text/part-2.xhtml>, not a class.

> You can see an example of this in /Pepys’ Diary/ endnote #5
> <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/samuel-pepys/the-diary/text/endnotes#note-5>. It does definitely add work I’m afraid.

>
> I’d mark the section numbers up in some way, then we can
> decide on styling later. I can’t see anything in the epub
> spec or z39.98 that’d be suitable semantics, so let’s give
> them a common structure for an id: you’ll need that to point
> to them anyway. So something like
> id=“number-book-x-section-y”? We can either style that
> directly later ([id^=number-]) or at least find and replace
> it with some other choice.
>
>> On 7 Feb 2024, at 18:44, Hendrik Kaiber
>> <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I started to clean the endnotes and thought so too. I will
>> keep the chapter numbering in the text itself, and will
>> remove only the numbering from the endnotes (since it will
>> be numbering according to their position on the inside the
>> <ol> element.)
>>

>> Do I make the /ids/ of the endnotes follow one order? I

>> thought that it would be better, for organizational
>> purposes to have their id be something like

>> "note-CHAPTER-/n/".

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e95d6832-edb6-41c4-bf27-4b6ccdd41435%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e95d6832-edb6-41c4-bf27-4b6ccdd41435%40standardebooks.org> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e95d6832-edb6-41c4-bf27-4b6ccdd41435%40standardebooks.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/e95d6832-edb6-41c4-bf27-4b6ccdd41435%40standardebooks.org>>.

>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are
>> subscribed to the Google
>> >> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
>> emails from it, send
>> >> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
>> >> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >>

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/575ef25b-422c-41bf-9ad5-e3d6ac6d260an%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/575ef25b-422c-41bf-9ad5-e3d6ac6d260an%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/575ef25b-422c-41bf-9ad5-e3d6ac6d260an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/575ef25b-422c-41bf-9ad5-e3d6ac6d260an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed
>> to the Google
>> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
>> emails from it, send
>> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
>> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/443611DC-9F75-4739-9915-5D0AB7825D06%40reala.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/443611DC-9F75-4739-9915-5D0AB7825D06%40reala.net> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/443611DC-9F75-4739-9915-5D0AB7825D06%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/443611DC-9F75-4739-9915-5D0AB7825D06%40reala.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to
>> the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
>> from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a4ea87f7-8058-46aa-a12b-b9269590d704n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a4ea87f7-8058-46aa-a12b-b9269590d704n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d75c5957-b128-4b25-9a9f-9266b85db2f4n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/d75c5957-b128-4b25-9a9f-9266b85db2f4n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Understood.

Regarding the cover, I would like to use Priestess of Delphi by John Collier, since oracles feature extensively in the book, but I'm not sure if this HathiTrust link counts as public domain proof.

I annexed the cover as it would appear if it approved.

[Robin Whittleton]

That works (though I’d potentially recrop it so that her head is slightly further down from the top edge?). Will reserve it in the artworks system later.

-Robin

On 9 Feb 2024, at 03:26, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/59f68890-cbdc-4d18-b1f2-73dbc512cc12n%40googlegroups.com.

<cover.svg>

[Hendrik Kaiber]

The work has been going great, I already a little over 1/3 of the greek text in endnotes.

I have a few questions:

- The SEMOS (8.18.2.2) says that rough breathing should be represented with the precomposed character, if possible (which I have been doing), but that smooth breathing should be represented with ’ (U+2019) in all cases, does that mean that I shouldn't use the precomposed character for that? (For instance Ἀ)?

- There are some examples of an apostrophe following a letter, which doesn't seem to be a diacritic, so I have use the U+2019 character in the few instances that it occurs, is this correct?

- I have been using xml:lang="grc" for the parts with greek text, but I noticed that in Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire the tag used is "el". From what I understand "el" refers to modern greek, and "grc" to ancient greek, so this is the one I've been using, should I change?

- In order to style the greek text, I used an css in the form of :lang(grc){font-style: italic;}, I don't work with these things professionaly, so I have been learning as needed, is this styling correct? So far, every grrek text has been inside a <span> element.

-Hendrik

[Vince]

There are only three endnotes in Gibbon that have “el,” because they are modern references. The other 600+ are all grc, as they should be.

[Alex Cabal]

> - The SEMOS
> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.4/single-page#8.18.2.2>

> (8.18.2.2) says that rough breathing should be represented with the
> precomposed character, if possible (which I have been doing), but that
> smooth breathing should be represented with ’ (U+2019) in all cases,
> does that mean that I shouldn't use the precomposed character for that?
> (For instance Ἀ)?

Do what SEMoS says, don't use precomposed characters.

> - There are some examples of an apostrophe following a letter, which
> doesn't seem to be a diacritic, so I have use the U+2019 character in
> the few instances that it occurs, is this correct?

Example?

> - I have been using xml:lang="grc" for the parts with greek text, but I

> noticed that in /Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire/ the tag used is

> "el". From what I understand "el" refers to modern greek, and "grc" to
> ancient greek, so this is the one I've been using, should I change?

It depends on what the actual language is!

> - In order to style the greek text, I used an css in the form of

> /:lang(grc){font-style: italic;}/, I don't work with these things

> professionaly, so I have been learning as needed, is this styling
> correct? So far, every grrek text has been inside a <span> element.

Why is Greek in <span> and not <i>?

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Example of apostrophe after a consonant:

What would be the correct way to write the δ? With a U+2019 after?

Also, I'm confused about the rule regarding smooth breathing because in Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire there are instances of letters with smooth breathing but using precomposed chraracters (like in endnote 20, which has ἐκ, using a single character for the the epsilon and smooth breathing). From what I understand from the SEMOS, it should be ’ε. Am I missing something?

I made a mistake in putting the greek text in <span> elements. I will change to <i> elements and remove the CSS.

The language is greek, and the fact that it refers to words from manuscripts led me to use the "grc" tag for ancient greek. Should I keep or change to "el"? I'm not certain.

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

On 2/14/24 10:47 AM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> Example of apostrophe after a consonant:
>

> Capturar.JPG
>
> What would be the correct way to write the δ? With a U+2019 after?

I think so, yes

> Also, I'm confused about the rule regarding smooth breathing because in

> /Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire/ there are instances of letters

> with smooth breathing but using precomposed chraracters (like in endnote

> 20, which has /ἐκ/, using a single character for the the epsilon and

> smooth breathing). From what I understand from the SEMOS, it should be

> /’ε/. Am I missing something?

Decline and Fall should be updated

> The language is greek, and the fact that it refers to words from
> manuscripts led me to use the "grc" tag for ancient greek. Should I keep
> or change to "el"? I'm not certain.

You use the language tag for whatever language it is. I cannot tell you
what language it is, because I'm not reading the book :)

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Understood, I will keep the "grc" for now, it can easily be changed if the reviewer thinks "el" would be more appropriate.

I will also remove the precomposed characters with smooth breathing and add the U+2019 character before the base character.

[Vince]

On Feb 14, 2024, at 10:16 AM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:

- The SEMOS <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.4/single-page#8.18.2.2> (8.18.2.2) says that rough breathing should be represented with the precomposed character, if possible (which I have been doing), but that smooth breathing should be represented with ’ (U+2019) in all cases, does that mean that I shouldn't use the precomposed character for that? (For instance Ἀ)?

Do what SEMoS says, don't use precomposed characters.

This part of SEMoS is confusing, not least because it mixes breathing and accents in its examples.

Smooth and rough breathing accents are a single diacritic, resembling a curled quote, either opening (rough) or closing (smooth). E.g., ἀ Ἀ (rough) and ἁ Ἁ (smooth). Those characters are the correct way to represent both, and they are what are produced when typing Greek on a Greek keyboard.

The last two examples in 8.18.2.1 for rough breathing marks are instances where there’s both rough breathing and an accent, and are something of a special case. There are combinations of both rough breathing and an accent, e.g. ἂ Ἂ ἆ Ἆ, and smooth breathing and an accent, e.g. ἃ Ἃ ἇ Ἇ. And, again, those are the proper characters for all of them.

I don’t know what 8.18.2.2 is trying to accomplish, but using a completely wrong symbol for smooth breathing makes it impossible to type in Greek using a Greek keyboard, and generally makes no sense. ’α is not the same thing as ἀ, and neither is ’A the same thing as Ἀ; in both cases, the former is English, not Greek, and it makes no sense to use English to type Greek, regardless of the breathing (or capitalization). 

As noted, the entirety of Gibbon’s Greek passages were typed using a Greek keyboard.

[Vince]

> On Feb 14, 2024, at 10:59 AM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> On 2/14/24 10:47 AM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
>> Example of apostrophe after a consonant:
>> Capturar.JPG
>> What would be the correct way to write the δ? With a U+2019 after?
>
> I think so, yes
>
>> Also, I'm confused about the rule regarding smooth breathing because in /Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire/ there are instances of letters with smooth breathing but using precomposed chraracters (like in endnote 20, which has /ἐκ/, using a single character for the the epsilon and smooth breathing). From what I understand from the SEMOS, it should be /’ε/. Am I missing something?
>
> Decline and Fall should be updated

See my other email, but no, it absolutely should not.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I will do what the SEMOS and Alex says for now, but it seems easy to change with regex if necessary (although I obviously prefer doing the final way since the beginning, to decrease opportunites for error).

Also, what method do you use for typing polytonic greek? I have been using Ubuntu input to type directly in VS Code, and was wondering if that is the best method.

-Hendrik

[Vince]

As you should; my message was for Alex, not you.

I’m on a Mac, and it has a polytonic Greek keyboard, so I used it to type everything into the editor I use.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Also, maybe it's done this way to differentiate the two? Ἁ and Ἀ look very similar to me without zooming in, while ’Α is a little easier to read.

Also, I seem to have missed your previous message regarding the difference between "el" and "grc". I understand now, and will check to see if any one in my project should be "el" (although most are certainly "grc"). Thank you.

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

Breathing marks are a very complex Unicode situation. I had this same
discussion last year which led to the tools being updated. The short
answer is that for various reasons the manual is correct to say to use
rsquo for breathing marks, even though the obvious expected way would be
to use the characters with combined diacritics. See:

https://www.unicode.org/faq/greek.html

http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/unicode.html

http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/gkdiacritics.html

On 2/14/24 11:20 AM, Vince wrote:
>> On Feb 14, 2024, at 10:16 AM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>>
>>> - The SEMOS
>>> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.4/single-page#8.18.2.2>
>>> (8.18.2.2) says that rough breathing should be represented with the
>>> precomposed character, if possible (which I have been doing), but
>>> that smooth breathing should be represented with ’ (U+2019) in all
>>> cases, does that mean that I shouldn't use the precomposed character
>>> for that? (For instance Ἀ)?
>>
>> Do what SEMoS says, don't use precomposed characters.
>
> This part of SEMoS is confusing, not least because it mixes breathing
> and accents in its examples.
>
> Smooth and rough breathing accents are a single diacritic, resembling a
> curled quote, either opening (rough) or closing (smooth). E.g., ἀ Ἀ
> (rough) and ἁ Ἁ (smooth). Those characters are the correct way to
> represent both, and they are what are produced when typing Greek on a
> Greek keyboard.
>
> The last two examples in 8.18.2.1 for rough breathing marks are

> instances where there’s both rough breathing /and/ an accent, and are

> something of a special case. There are combinations of both rough
> breathing and an accent, e.g. ἂ Ἂ ἆ Ἆ, and smooth breathing and an
> accent, e.g. ἃ Ἃ ἇ Ἇ. And, again, those are the proper characters for
> all of them.
>
> I don’t know what 8.18.2.2 is trying to accomplish, but using a
> completely wrong symbol for smooth breathing makes it impossible to type
> in Greek using a Greek keyboard, and generally makes no sense. ’α is

> /not/ the same thing as ἀ, and neither is ’A the same thing as Ἀ; in

> both cases, the former is English, not Greek, and it makes no sense to
> use English to type Greek, regardless of the breathing (or capitalization).
>
> As noted, the entirety of Gibbon’s Greek passages were typed using a
> Greek keyboard.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/1B630343-DF47-40C9-80DA-08DE38208770%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/1B630343-DF47-40C9-80DA-08DE38208770%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Alex Cabal]

There was also at least one long discussion on Github somewhere about
this exact issue with @johnfactotum but I can't find it right now for
some reason. The result of that discussion was the manual as it is now.

[Alex Cabal]

Here it is:
https://github.com/standardebooks/plato_dialogues_benjamin-jowett/pull/4

[Vince]

They’re not any more difficult than any other non-English ASCII character; they’re defined Unicode characters. And Greek keyboards type the appropriate characters. We’re supposed to switch to a Greek keyboard to type Greek, then suddenly switch back to US to type the wrong symbol for breathing (but only smooth breathing—what about smooth breathing with an accent?), then switch back to Greek to type the Greek character, and so on? That’s lunacy. Not to mention just plain wrong. We don’t make up characters to type instead of Russian ones, we use the actual Russian characters. There is absolutely no reason to do so for Greek ones.

[Alex Cabal]

Hey, I don't make the Unicode rules. If you think it's silly, which I
agree with, write to the Unicode consortium. Until they change things we
gotta play by their rules.

On 2/14/24 12:26 PM, Vince wrote:
> They’re not any more difficult than any other non-English ASCII

> character; they’re /defined Unicode characters/. And Greek keyboards

> type the appropriate characters. We’re supposed to switch to a Greek
> keyboard to type Greek, then suddenly switch back to US to type the

> wrong symbol for breathing (but only /smooth/ breathing—what about

> smooth breathing with an accent?), then switch back to Greek to type the
> Greek character, and so on? That’s lunacy. Not to mention just plain
> wrong. We don’t make up characters to type instead of Russian ones, we
> use the actual Russian characters. There is absolutely no reason to do
> so for Greek ones.
>
>> On Feb 14, 2024, at 12:17 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>>
>> Breathing marks are a very complex Unicode situation. I had this same
>> discussion last year which led to the tools being updated. The short
>> answer is that for various reasons the manual is correct to say to use
>> rsquo for breathing marks, even though the obvious expected way would
>> be to use the characters with combined diacritics. See:
>>
>> https://www.unicode.org/faq/greek.html
>> <https://www.unicode.org/faq/greek.html>
>>
>> http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/unicode.html

>> <http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/unicode.html>
>>
>> http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/gkdiacritics.html

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/305C9FB3-A275-4C92-8B2D-F33D521F851A%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/305C9FB3-A275-4C92-8B2D-F33D521F851A%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Vince]

What are you talking about? They are not their rules! The characters I typed below are the correct characters for both rough and smooth breathing. None of them use an English quote mark. Those are the correct characters, period.

Nor does the GitHub conversation say anything about using the wrong character for smooth breathing. In fact, one of the things you quote says exactly the opposite—“… single quotation marks are best avoided with polytonic Greek in general; the risk of confusion(!!) with apostrophes and breathings is just too great…” (exclamations mine), and it should go without saying you don’t use them instead of breathing marks.

[Alex Cabal]

Vince, I'm not going to be yelled at right now. Let's take five and
revisit this when things cool down.

On 2/14/24 12:35 PM, Vince wrote:
> What are you talking about? /They are not their rules!/ The characters I

> typed below are the correct characters for both rough and smooth

> breathing. None of them use an English quote mark. /Those are the
> correct characters, period./
> /
> /

> Nor does the GitHub conversation say anything about using the wrong
> character for smooth breathing. In fact, one of the things you quote
> says exactly the opposite—“… single quotation marks are best avoided
> with polytonic Greek in general; the risk of confusion(!!) with
> apostrophes and breathings is just too great…” (exclamations mine), and

> it should go without saying you don’t use them /instead/ of breathing marks.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/AC6F4D05-9329-4BF0-959D-C257E656EFA1%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/AC6F4D05-9329-4BF0-959D-C257E656EFA1%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Robin Whittleton]

After that long exchange (and thanks, my knowledge of Greek is basically nothing) I can at least chip in to say not to use the :lang pseudoclass: it’s only been supported by Firefox for the longest time. Still with an attribute selector instead, for example [xml:lang=grc]

-Robin

> On 14 Feb 2024, at 19:28, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Hey, I don't make the Unicode rules. If you think it's silly, which I agree with, write to the Unicode consortium. Until they change things we gotta play by their rules.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/a15c4cd4-8014-415b-8c6a-0cd989a87fdc%40standardebooks.org.

[Vince]

Fair, my apologies. I had something else going on here at the same time, and between the two got excited. I wasn’t yelling though (even in my head) — NO CAPS. :) My apologies, nonetheless. I went to lunch with my wife, now I’m too stuffed to be excited.

The bottom line is that breathing marks are not quotes (apostrophes, whatever you want to call it), and vice-versa. Further, nothing in Unicode suggests otherwise. The part at the end of your GitHub discussion was about a standalone psili (U+1FBF) that is used as a vowel elision, not a psili smooth breathing mark (U+02BC). Again, very much not the same thing. So, if 8.18.2.2 is trying to say that a “standalone psili should not be used for a vowel being elided, use an apostrophe (U+2019) instead,” then fine. Good luck having anyone understand (or remember) it :), but it’s a valid, if pedantic, rule.

But that is a very specific case, for a very specific character, not a smooth breathing character. We don’t use a capital A (English) where we should be using a capital alpha (Α), and we shouldn’t be doing it with breathing marks, either. Type Greek on a Greek keyboard, and you get proper Greek. (E.g. it won’t let you put breathing marks on characters that can’t take them.)

[Vince]

And, now having looked at it, the normalize_greek function handles the U+1FBF to apostrophe, so no one has to understand or remember it. :) But that’s what rule 8.18.2.2 should be, not about breathing marks.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CD4B2D0C-D09F-479F-981B-69304371E459%40letterboxes.org.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I have been adding greek text and should be done in a few days. However I noticed that PG seems to have not added some endnotes. So far I have noticed two:

Chapter VII:

Endnote 89a (should be between endnotes 1056 and 1057 in my project)

Endnote 109 (should be between endnotes 1076 and 1077)

There may be others, I won't know until I finished this part of the project, but I would like guidance on how to proper fix this. I never used se shift-endnotes and have no idea how to use it, does this tool allows to fix this situation?

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I believe I managed to fix the issue.

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Great. Had I answered in time, I would have said that yes, this was exactly the problem shift-endnotes is designed to solve.

-Robin

On 19 Feb 2024, at 02:49, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/563cabeb-7fa2-4931-af31-ebcb47e49589n%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I just finished adding greek text to the endnotes (and in two instances of Book II), and will now start to add links to the references to chapters in the endnotes. Some have a chapter explicitly references in the text, so I will add to the to their chapter id (ex.: chapter-1-* for endnotes of chapter 1). I also have some questions:

- What text should I put in the <a> tag? Just the chapter number (like <a>chapter_number</a>) or both the the book and the chapter (like <a> ch. 1 chapter_number</a>)?

- I have put each chapter id in a <span> which contains the chapter number (ex.: <span class="chapter" id="chapter-1-1">1.</span>) I did this to better format the chapter number (just bold for now) and because not every chapter begins with a <p> element). Should I maintain the ids like this or change to go to the <p> element (excepting the few that don't begin in one)?

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

As the endnotes are at the end of all the books now, I’d suggest that your second approach is better. I’ll leave it up to you to pick the best naming convention.

For the id, that sounds fine as it’ll always be the first thing in the paragraph. But if we need to it’d be easy enough to find and replace later.

-Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/601ddd7a-7155-4492-8fd6-5b851ede52f2n%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Work on this project has been going well, I should begin proofreading this week (Which will possibly take the largest amount of time). If you were to use se lint in this project, you will see a few instances of the s-046 (<p> element containing only <span> and <br> elements, but its parent doesn’t have the z3998:poem, z3998:verse, z3998:song, z3998:hymn, or z3998:lyrics semantic. Multi-line clauses that are not verse don’t require <span>s.). This cases involve inscriptions which I am not sure how to style; should I just use z3998:verse, a specific class or do nothing? If anyone can tell me or point me to another instance I would appreciate. Thank you.

-Hendrik

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Also, I started proofreading last night and encountered a strange issue. My reader (kindle paperwhite) show just one paragraph per page, even if there is plenty of room to show more text; the titles also occupy a single page. I can't find a reason in th CSS or formatting for this, any ideas for the cause?

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

I think that we can give them verse semantics. The specification says that verse is: “A work typically composed of metered or rhyming lines (as opposed to prose).”

As for the Kindle problems, I don’t have one so it’s difficult for me to check. But I’d proof as best you can then we can fix after?

-Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/713b6432-36fc-4d1f-82d1-e47f8dbf16ebn%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

The issue appears to be specific to my kindle, both Moon+reader in my android and the calibre ebook viewer show the text without those breaks. It doesn't me from proofreading, so I will continue, but I am still curious as to why this is happening.

-Hendrik

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Just a quick update: I've been proofreading the book with patience, so it will still take a while until I'm finished.

Also, I figured out the issue with the paragraphs in the azw3 format: When there is class named "chapter", kindle understand that it is an actual chapter, and so inserts a page break. I changed the name of the class in a test and it worked properly. I will fix this next time I do fixes.

-Hendrik

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I've updated the toolset and now I can't build anything but the epub version of the ebook (can't even do --check-only). This is what happens:

Any idea why this is happening? Did I did something wrong?

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

It’s failing when converting the cover to a PNG from an SVG for the compatible version. Looks like an errant find-and-replace broke it: https://github.com/HendrikBK/herodotus_histories_g-c-macaulay/commit/88e3aec5e04c910ad7fef73d11fefc8ddc880f69

Running se build-images . again generates a new correct cover for me, and the system is then able to build after. If you’re feeling like it, you could also edit the breaking commit to remove the cover change from it.

-Robin

On 13 Mar 2024, at 02:10, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:

I've updated the toolset and now I can't build anything but the epub version of the ebook (can't even do --check-only). This is what happens: <Screenshot from 2024-03-12 22-08-41.png>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/b764c792-245b-4a81-af3f-bcd684237571n%40googlegroups.com.
<Screenshot from 2024-03-12 22-08-41.png>

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Fixed it, thank you.

-Hendrik

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Just to update the project and letting the project know that I've been proofreading calmly, trying not to miss any issue. Most of the one I found are simply older spelling (like Phenicians that I changed to Phoenicians). I'm currently reading book 5. I might try to make a small project in between so that I don't burnout.

-Hendrik

[Hendrik Kaiber]

After taking a break and working The House Without Windows, I'm back to proofreading the book. I noticed that the PG edition has put several of the "chapters" in new paragraphs instead of leaving them in a same, larger one as in the scans (for instance, Book V, chapters 11-17 are one paragraph in the scans but seven in the transcription). This leads to some paragraphs starting with lowercase letters, since the previous one ended with a colon.

Should I keep the Gutenberg paragraph separation and then change capitalization in the necessary places?  or change back to match the scans? I don't think the meaning changes either way, so both can work. Although keeping the PG changes would be easier, I would change it to math the scans. I'll do what the editor thinks best.

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Matching the scans generally sounds like a good idea. Can you give me an example?

-Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97a3bf23-d77a-4e45-bc54-1cc89f0a4900n%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

This is the beginning of Book V. As you can see, chapter 11 starts a new paragraph, which also contains the next chapters until chapter 17. The Gutenberg edition change it so that most chapters begin a new paragraph, with a few exceptions through out the book. I assume this was done to make reading easier, since in the original publication the paragraph can get very long. I don't it make that much of a difference one way or the other, but I would like to get the most things right as possible while in production.

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

OK, makes sense. Keep it matching the scans. There’s no problem linking to an id in the middle of a paragraph.

-Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/557184e8-2858-4d59-b9f0-a64bf80e6e9bn%40googlegroups.com.
<Sem título.png>

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I started to chage  the paragraphs so that they match the scans. I also another question: The PG text has <hr> elements that don't appear in the scans; which instead have a blanket line, which I believe functions like <hr> elements. Do I need to remove them from the project or do I keep them? I would keep it, since it seems clear to me that it's supposed to a thematic break.

Here's an image of waht I mean, between chapters 5 and 6 there is a blank line.

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

We use an hr for those.

-Robin

On 17 Apr 2024, at 14:41, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:



I started to chage  the paragraphs so that they match the scans. I also another question: The PG text has <hr> elements that don't appear in the scans; which instead have a blanket line, which I believe functions like <hr> elements. Do I need to remove them from the project or do I keep them? I would keep it, since it seems clear to me that it's supposed to a thematic break.

Here's an image of waht I mean, between chapters 5 and 6 there is a blank line.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/9c408e28-f822-44d9-8791-c54cacf01066n%40googlegroups.com.

<Capturar.JPG>

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Hello, just a quick update. I got into a stump for a while but I'm back proofreading, with the two last books remaining. Once I finished reading and do a spellcheck and typogrify it will be ready for the first review.

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Sounds good!

On 20 May 2024, at 15:04, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c66952ad-100f-4810-b688-4980e58f2fddn%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Hello. I finished proofreading the book. I will begin to spellcheck later today.

I would like to know how to proceed with the names of people, locations, gods and peoples. There are a lot of them in the nine parts of the book. Some I already fixed in a editorial commit (like Esop -> Aesop and Phenicia -> Phoenicia). My question is, when doing the spell check do I check every one of these names if they are correct?

Also two names which perhaps should be changed:

Keltoi (Book 2 chap. 33) - According to wikipedia this is the greek word for Celts, and the context supports this.

Hybebe (Book 5 chap. 102) - I couldn't find who this goddess is, but by the similarity of the name and the location of the temple (Sardis in Anatolia) I believe it is refering to the goddess Cybele.

Should these names be changed?

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

What do you mean by correct? If you mean consistent then we should try to do that as much as possible, but it’s a hard problem without having a known-good list and proofing against it.

Personally I wouldn’t bother changing those two names. I’d definitely not change the second as it’s (informed) conjecture where we’re guessing at what the author meant: we don’t do that outside of exceptional circumstances. Either way, [Editorial] commits for any spelling changes you make.

-Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/46337eb7-670f-4b84-bd14-184a83bfe742n%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Ok, I'll keep Keltoi and Hybebe as is for now.

What I meant is change names to match their modern spelling. None of these names are the original, since they are from other languages and writing systems, so the english version of them can vary based on peirod and writer.

Some that I already changed:

Esop -> Aesop (Greek writer)

Phenicia -> Phoenicia (Region in modern Lebanon)

Cappadokia -> Cappadocia (Region in modern Turkey)

Hephaistos -> Hephaestus (Greek god)

Achaemenidai -> Achaemenidae (Adjective relating to the first persian empire)

And some others that I noticed (all found in Merriam-Webster and/or Wikipedia). however there are many names which I never heard before reading this book, so I would need to try to find if the spelling changed for each one of them. Should I do it?

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

I would say not to worry about it. We’re attempting to produce readable books, not scholarly editions. If we can do both then with a reasonable amount of effort then that’s a reasonable goal, but the first always outweighs the second.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/0b988446-b3d8-4826-912e-dbbced362cben%40googlegroups.com.

[Alex Cabal]

The key is that we only update *sound-alike* spellings. So the ones that
you already updated make sense to update because they're basically
sound-alike. However things like Keltoi -> Celts and Hybebe -> Cybele
are not sound alike so we would not change them - those are not spelling
differences, but word differences.

As Robin said I wouldn't worry too much about spellings for proper
names, however if you're already starting to do that then it might make
sense to do a complete job of it. We knew this was going to be a big
project going in to it.

On 6/6/24 6:42 AM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> Ok, I'll keep /Keltoi /and /Hybebe/ as is for now.

>
> What I meant is change names to match their modern spelling. None of
> these names are the original, since they are from other languages and
> writing systems, so the english version of them can vary based on peirod
> and writer.
>
> Some that I already changed:

> /Esop /-> /Aesop /(Greek writer)
> /Phenicia /-> /Phoenicia /(Region in modern Lebanon)
> /Cappadokia /-> /Cappadocia /(Region in modern Turkey)
> /Hephaistos/ -> /Hephaestus /(Greek god)
> /Achaemenidai/ -> /Achaemenidae /(Adjective relating to the first

> persian empire)
>
> And some others that I noticed (all found in Merriam-Webster and/or
> Wikipedia). however there are many names which I never heard before
> reading this book, so I would need to try to find if the spelling
> changed for each one of them. Should I do it?
>
> -Hendrik
>
> Em quinta-feira, 6 de junho de 2024 às 05:32:25 UTC-3, robin escreveu:
>
> What do you mean by correct? If you mean consistent then we should
> try to do that as much as possible, but it’s a hard problem without
> having a known-good list and proofing against it.
>
> Personally I wouldn’t bother changing those two names. I’d
> definitely not change the second as it’s (informed) conjecture where
> we’re guessing at what the author meant: we don’t do that outside of
> exceptional circumstances. Either way, [Editorial] commits for any
> spelling changes you make.
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 5 Jun 2024, at 13:31, Hendrik Kaiber <hendrik....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hello. I finished proofreading the book. I will begin to
>> spellcheck later today.
>>
>> I would like to know how to proceed with the names of people,

>> locations, gods and peoples. There are /a lot/ of them in the nine

>> parts of the book. Some I already fixed in a editorial commit

>> (like /Esop /-> /Aesop/ and /Phenicia /-> /Phoenicia/). My

>> question is, when doing the spell check do I check every one of
>> these names if they are correct?
>>
>> Also two names which perhaps should be changed:

>> /Keltoi /(Book 2 chap. 33) - According to wikipedia
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Celts> this is the
>> greek word for /Celts/, and the context supports this.
>> /Hybebe/ (Book 5 chap. 102) - I couldn't find who this goddess is,

>> but by the similarity of the name and the location of the temple
>> (Sardis in Anatolia) I believe it is refering to the goddess

>> /Cybele/ <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele>/./
>> /
>> /

>>>>>> After taking a break and working/The House
>>>>>> Without Windows/, I'm back to proofreading the

>>>>>> book. I noticed that the PG edition has put
>>>>>> several of the "chapters" in new paragraphs
>>>>>> instead of leaving them in a same, larger one
>>>>>> as in the scans (for instance, Book V,
>>>>>> chapters 11-17 are one paragraph in the scans
>>>>>> but seven in the transcription). This leads to
>>>>>> some paragraphs starting with lowercase
>>>>>> letters, since the previous one ended with a
>>>>>> colon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should I keep the Gutenberg paragraph
>>>>>> separation and then change capitalization in
>>>>>> the necessary places?  or change back to match
>>>>>> the scans? I don't think the meaning changes
>>>>>> either way, so both can work. Although keeping
>>>>>> the PG changes would be easier, I would change
>>>>>> it to math the scans. I'll do what the editor
>>>>>> thinks best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Hendrik
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Em sábado, 30 de março de 2024 às 09:19:25
>>>>>> UTC-3, Hendrik Kaiber escreveu:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to update the project and letting the
>>>>>> project know that I've been proofreading
>>>>>> calmly, trying not to miss any issue. Most
>>>>>> of the one I found are simply older

>>>>>> spelling (like/Phenicians/that I changed
>>>>>> to/Phoenicians/)/./I'm currently reading

>>>>>> book 5. I might try to make a small
>>>>>> project in between so that I don't burnout.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Hendrik
>>>>>> Em quarta-feira, 13 de março de 2024 às
>>>>>> 07:59:22 UTC-3, Hendrik Kaiber escreveu:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fixed it, thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Hendrik
>>>>>> Em quarta-feira, 13 de março de 2024
>>>>>> às 04:55:19 UTC-3, robin escreveu:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It’s failing when converting the
>>>>>> cover to a PNG from an SVG for the
>>>>>> compatible version. Looks like an
>>>>>> errant find-and-replace broke it:

>>>>>> https://github.com/HendrikBK/herodotus_histories_g-c-macaulay/commit/88e3aec5e04c910ad7fef73d11fefc8ddc880f69 <https://github.com/HendrikBK/herodotus_histories_g-c-macaulay/commit/88e3aec5e04c910ad7fef73d11fefc8ddc880f69>

>>>>>>>> use/se lint/in

>>>>>>>> this project,
>>>>>>>> you will see a
>>>>>>>> few instances of

>>>>>>>> the s-046 (/<p>

>>>>>>>> element
>>>>>>>> containing only
>>>>>>>> <span> and <br>
>>>>>>>> elements, but
>>>>>>>> its parent
>>>>>>>> doesn’t have the
>>>>>>>> z3998:poem,
>>>>>>>> z3998:verse,
>>>>>>>> z3998:song,
>>>>>>>> z3998:hymn, or
>>>>>>>> z3998:lyrics
>>>>>>>> semantic.
>>>>>>>> Multi-line
>>>>>>>> clauses that are
>>>>>>>> not verse don’t
>>>>>>>> require

>>>>>>>> <span>s./)/./This cases involve inscriptions which I am not sure how to style; should I just use/z3998:verse/, a specific class or do nothing? If anyone can tell me or point me to another instance I would appreciate. Thank you.

>>>>>>>>> <a>/chapter_number/</a>) or both the the book and the chapter (like <a>/ch. 1 chapter_number/</a>)?

>>>>>>>>>> There may be others, I won't know until I finished this part of the project, but I would like guidance on how to proper fix this. I never used/se shift-endnotes/and have no idea how to use it, does this tool allows to fix this situation?

>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Em
>>>>>>>>>> quarta-feira, 14 de fevereiro de 2024 às 18:08:44 UTC-3, Vince escreveu:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, now having looked at it, the normalize_greek function handles the U+1FBF to apostrophe, so no one has to understand or remember it. :) But that’s what rule 8.18.2.2 should be, not about breathing marks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 14, 2024, at 2:59 PM, Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fair, my apologies. I had something else going on here at the same time, and between the two got excited. I wasn’t yelling though (even in my head) — NO CAPS. :) My apologies, nonetheless. I went to lunch with my wife, now I’m too stuffed to be excited.
>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>> The bottom line is that breathing marks are not quotes (apostrophes, whatever you want to call it), and vice-versa. Further, nothing in Unicode suggests otherwise. The part at the end of your GitHub discussion was about a standalone psili (U+1FBF) that is used as a vowel elision,/not/a psili smooth breathing mark (U+02BC). Again, very much not the same thing. So, if 8.18.2.2 is trying to say that a “standalone psili should not be used for a vowel being elided, use an apostrophe (U+2019) instead,” then fine. Good luck having anyone understand (or remember) it :), but it’s a valid, if pedantic, rule.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But that is a very specific case, for a very specific character,/not/ a smooth breathing character. We don’t use a capital A (English) where we should be using a capital alpha (Α), and we shouldn’t be doing it with breathing marks, either. Type Greek on a Greek keyboard, and you get proper Greek. (E.g. it won’t let you put breathing marks on characters that can’t take them.)

>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 14, 2024, at 12:37 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Vince, I'm not going to be yelled at right now. Let's take five and revisit this when things cool down.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/24 12:35 PM, Vince wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What are you talking about? /They are not their rules!/ The characters I typed below are the correct characters for both rough and smooth breathing. None of them use an English quote mark. /Those are the correct characters, period./
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /
>>>>>>>>>>>>> /
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nor does the GitHub conversation say anything about using the wrong character for smooth breathing. In fact, one of the things you quote says exactly the opposite—“… single quotation marks are best avoided with polytonic Greek in general; the risk of confusion(!!) with apostrophes and breathings is just too great…” (exclamations mine), and it should go without saying you don’t use them /instead/ of breathing marks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 14, 2024, at 12:28 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey, I don't make the Unicode rules. If you think it's silly, which I agree with, write to the Unicode consortium. Until they change things we gotta play by their rules.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/24 12:26 PM, Vince wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They’re not any more difficult than any other non-English ASCII character; they’re /defined Unicode characters/. And Greek keyboards type the appropriate characters. We’re supposed to switch to a Greek keyboard to type Greek, then suddenly switch back to US to type the wrong symbol for breathing (but only /smooth/ breathing—what about smooth breathing with an accent?), then switch back to Greek to type the Greek character, and so on? That’s lunacy. Not to mention just plain wrong. We don’t make up characters to type instead of Russian ones, we use the actual Russian characters. There is absolutely no reason to do so for Greek ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 14, 2024, at 12:17 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Breathing marks are a very complex Unicode situation. I had this same discussion last year which led to the tools being updated. The short answer is that for various reasons the manual is correct to say to use rsquo for breathing marks, even though the obvious expected way would be to use the characters with combined diacritics. See:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.unicode.org/faq/greek.html <https://www.unicode.org/faq/greek.html><https://www.unicode.org/faq/greek.html <https://www.unicode.org/faq/greek.html>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/unicode.html <http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/unicode.html><http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/unicode.html <http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/unicode.html>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/gkdiacritics.html <http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/gkdiacritics.html><http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/gkdiacritics.html <http://www.opoudjis.net/unicode/gkdiacritics.html>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/14/24 11:20 AM, Vince wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 14, 2024, at 10:16 AM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The SEMOS <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.4/single-page#8.18.2.2 <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.4/single-page#8.18.2.2>> (8.18.2.2) says that rough breathing should be represented with the precomposed character, if possible (which I have been doing), but that smooth breathing should be represented with ’ (U+2019) in all cases, does that mean that I shouldn't use the precomposed character for that? (For instance Ἀ)?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do what SEMoS says, don't use precomposed characters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This part of SEMoS is confusing, not least because it mixes breathing and accents in its examples.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Smooth and rough breathing accents are a single diacritic, resembling a curled quote, either opening (rough) or closing (smooth). E.g., ἀ Ἀ (rough) and ἁ Ἁ (smooth). Those characters are the correct way to represent both, and they are what are produced when typing Greek on a Greek keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The last two examples in 8.18.2.1 for rough breathing marks are instances where there’s both rough breathing /and/ an accent, and are something of a special case. There are combinations of both rough breathing and an accent, e.g. ἂ Ἂ ἆ Ἆ, and smooth breathing and an accent, e.g. ἃ Ἃ ἇ Ἇ. And, again, those are the proper characters for all of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don’t know what 8.18.2.2 is trying to accomplish, but using a completely wrong symbol for smooth breathing makes it impossible to type in Greek using a Greek keyboard, and generally makes no sense. ’α is /not/ the same thing as ἀ, and neither is ’A the same thing as Ἀ; in both cases, the former is English, not Greek, and it makes no sense to use English to type Greek, regardless of the breathing (or capitalization).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As noted, the entirety of Gibbon’s Greek passages were typed using a Greek keyboard.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email tostandardebook...@googlegroups.com.

>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CD4B2D0C-D09F-479F-981B-69304371E459%40letterboxes.org <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CD4B2D0C-D09F-479F-981B-69304371E459%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>> received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>>>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>>> unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email tostandardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>>> this

>>>>>>>>>> discussion on the web visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/563cabeb-7fa2-4931-af31-ebcb47e49589n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/563cabeb-7fa2-4931-af31-ebcb47e49589n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>>>>>>> visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/601ddd7a-7155-4492-8fd6-5b851ede52f2n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/601ddd7a-7155-4492-8fd6-5b851ede52f2n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> You received this
>>>>>>>> message because you
>>>>>>>> are subscribed to
>>>>>>>> the Google Groups
>>>>>>>> "Standard Ebooks" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from
>>>>>>>> this group and stop
>>>>>>>> receiving emails
>>>>>>>> from it, send an
>>>>>>>> email
>>>>>>>> tostandardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To view this
>>>>>>>> discussion on the
>>>>>>>> web

>>>>>>>> visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/713b6432-36fc-4d1f-82d1-e47f8dbf16ebn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/713b6432-36fc-4d1f-82d1-e47f8dbf16ebn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> You received this message because
>>>>>>> you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group
>>>>>>> and stop receiving emails from
>>>>>>> it, send an email
>>>>>>> tostandardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the
>>>>>>> web

>>>>>>> visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/b764c792-245b-4a81-af3f-bcd684237571n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/b764c792-245b-4a81-af3f-bcd684237571n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>>>>> <Screenshot from 2024-03-12
>>>>>>> 22-08-41.png>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are
>>>>>> subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard
>>>>>> Ebooks" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop
>>>>>> receiving emails from it, send an email
>>>>>> tostandardebook...@googlegroups.com.

>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web

>>>>>> visithttps://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97a3bf23-d77a-4e45-bc54-1cc89f0a4900n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/97a3bf23-d77a-4e45-bc54-1cc89f0a4900n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are
>>>>> subscribed to the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks"
>>>>> group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
>>>>> emails from it, send an email to
>>>>> standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/557184e8-2858-4d59-b9f0-a64bf80e6e9bn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/557184e8-2858-4d59-b9f0-a64bf80e6e9bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>>> <Sem título.png>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to
>>>> the Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails
>>>> from it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/9c408e28-f822-44d9-8791-c54cacf01066n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/9c408e28-f822-44d9-8791-c54cacf01066n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>> <Capturar.JPG>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>> Google Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>> it, send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c66952ad-100f-4810-b688-4980e58f2fddn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/c66952ad-100f-4810-b688-4980e58f2fddn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> send an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/46337eb7-670f-4b84-bd14-184a83bfe742n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/46337eb7-670f-4b84-bd14-184a83bfe742n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com

> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/0b988446-b3d8-4826-912e-dbbced362cben%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/0b988446-b3d8-4826-912e-dbbced362cben%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Alright, Anytime I find a name I'll see if a newer spelling is used. If I can't find it easily I'll assume it is correct and kepp it.

-Hendrik

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I started spellchecking the text and find a few names that I should be updated; nothing major, usually the removal of an accent or changing one letter.

I'd like to inquire aboute another issue: Se lint returns two errors (x-018 and x-019) regarding the ids in chapter numberings. For now I added it to lint-ignore, but would orientation on whether or not to remove the ids from chapters not referenced in the endnotes. The other error is because id number number doesn't match the element number in the file (something like span 50 has the id of chapter-1-40). I obviously can't change the chapter numbering, so I assume this is left in se-lint-ignore?

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

Let’s leave the ids until you feel happy that you’re ready: it’ll be easy to change then, and I’m not sure at this point.

Personally, given that they’re already numbered and potentially people might want to link to a section on the web version, I think that I’d keep the ids, but it’s Alex’s call.

-Robin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/861b1eca-b412-4e73-8204-1c7b93b33c24n%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I'm almost finished with the spellcheck, and as I said before, the changes I will make are mostly changing one or two letters in some place/people names (Like Euboia -> Euboea).

A few questions before I proceed:

1- There several words which end with -ai (like messagetai, Mermnadai and Achaemenidai) some of these I already fixed to the more modern spelling of -ae. However several I can't find spelled with -ae, so I'm thinking of reverting the changes I already made and leaving the rest as-is, to make this spelling consistent in the book. Thoughts?

2- There some words which the author claim are foreign words in some languages, like bekos which is supposed to be phrygian. How should language tags be used (if at all) in this situation?

3- There is a non-insignificant number of words which I will fix, if I do one commit per word, there will be over 50 commits, should I do like this or do one commit?

I'll post here if I have any more questions, but if everything goes right it should be ready for the first review in the weekend.

-Hendrik

[Robin Whittleton]

1. Hit the limits of my knowledge here. -ae ending would be typically Latin and -ai Greek right? Consistency feels good, but only if we’re happy with those changes.

2. xml:lang="xpg" 🙂 Typically I do the best I can to verify languages, but if the author’s claiming it and it’s not in MW then I’ll usually go with them.

3. Commits are free, go for it.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/06527737-6c20-4493-9fc6-a9038710aeb5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Ok, I'll use the -ai ending for consistency. Regarding the second point I think I didn't explain properly; I used bekos as an example, there are others supposedly foreign words in persian, scythian and egyptian, I just wanted to know if I trust the author for the correct language tag. Since I don't speak any of the involved languages, I think I will used the languages described in the text.

Another question I have is regarding the use of <i> and <em> tags; some I already changed to <em> since the context makes it clear that it is italicized for emphasis, but I am not sure about the majority. Nearly all instances are either foreign words, deity names or some unit of measure. My instinct is to keep <i> for these cases, but I would like clarification.

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

On 6/13/24 1:40 AM, Robin Whittleton wrote:
> 1. Hit the limits of my knowledge here. -ae ending would be typically
> Latin and -ai Greek right? Consistency feels good, but only if we’re
> happy with those changes.

I think that's right, and one could have the same word in both flavors
of spelling/language. Therefore it's not a matter of 'modernization'. I
think internal consistency is more important.

[Alex Cabal]

On 6/13/24 6:11 AM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> Ok, I'll use the /-ai/ ending for consistency. Regarding the second
> point I think I didn't explain properly; I used /bekos/ as an example,

> there are others supposedly foreign words in persian, scythian and
> egyptian, I just wanted to know if I trust the author for the correct
> language tag. Since I don't speak any of the involved languages, I think
> I will used the languages described in the text.

Just go with what seems right, we're not expected to be experts in every
language either and if it's a big mistake someone more knowledgeable can
do a PR later.

> Another question I have is regarding the use of <i> and <em> tags; some
> I already changed to <em> since the context makes it clear that it is
> italicized for emphasis, but I am not sure about the majority. Nearly
> all instances are either foreign words, deity names or some unit of
> measure. My instinct is to keep <i> for these cases, but I would like
> clarification.

https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/8-typography#8.2.9

Names and units of measure (unless they are a non-English word) are not
italicized

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Hello, I have fixed the spellings of some words and added the proper semantics to others. Both se lint and epubcheck show no errors. I believe it is ready for a review. Keep in mind that there is still the issue of the chapter ids, which curently exists for every chapter (so over a thousand ids). If we want to keep them, no further action is necessary, but if we want only the ones used in links I will need to delete most. Also there are three words (discessisset, san, and sigma) that are inside a <i> element without an semantics, since I am not sure if it should be changed to <em> or removed.

I tried my best to make the best project possible, but considering the size and complexity of the text I'm sure there issues I haven't noticed.

I understand that this review may take a while, so I don't expect for it to ready very fast. Please review and give feedback if possible. Thank you.

-Hendrik

[Weijia Cheng]

Noted, I will start working on the review in a couple of days.

[Weijia Cheng]

I'm starting to work on the review now. Sorry for the delay; I was waiting for my last few days at my job to wrap up.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

No problem, take your time.

-Hendrik

[Weijia Cheng]

Alright, I was able to find some time to sit down and complete the review, which is here: https://github.com/HendrikBK/herodotus_histories_g-c-macaulay/issues/1

Clearly a lot of work went into this, and for a project of this size the history was very easy to review. I noticed a couple of minor issues, some that will require rebasing, but this this is a very good start.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

Thank you. I will probably working in the issues start tonight. Since I'm not very good at rebasing I will probably create another repo and practice there first.

-Hendrik

[Alex Cabal]

You can just copy the folder somewhere else. If you mess up a rebase
just copy the backup folder back into place.

On 6/25/24 12:50 PM, Hendrik Kaiber wrote:
> Thank you. I will probably working in the issues start tonight. Since
> I'm not very good at rebasing I will probably create another repo and
> practice there first.
>
> -Hendrik
> Em terça-feira, 25 de junho de 2024 às 14:32:06 UTC-3,
> weijia...@gmail.com escreveu:
>
> Alright, I was able to find some time to sit down and complete the
> review, which is here:

> https://github.com/HendrikBK/herodotus_histories_g-c-macaulay/issues/1 <https://github.com/HendrikBK/herodotus_histories_g-c-macaulay/issues/1>

>
> Clearly a lot of work went into this, and for a project of this size
> the history was very easy to review. I noticed a couple of minor
> issues, some that will require rebasing, but this this is a very
> good start.
>
> On Tuesday, June 25, 2024 at 9:29:30 AM UTC-7 hendrik....@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> No problem, take your time.
>
> -Hendrik
> Em terça-feira, 25 de junho de 2024 às 12:00:48 UTC-3,
> weijia...@gmail.com escreveu:
>
> I'm starting to work on the review now. Sorry for the delay;
> I was waiting for my last few days at my job to wrap up.
>
> On Friday, June 14, 2024 at 6:13:21 PM UTC-7 Weijia Cheng wrote:
>
> Noted, I will start working on the review in a couple of
> days.
>
> On Friday, June 14, 2024 at 9:51:59 AM UTC-7
> hendrik....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hello, I have fixed the spellings of some words and

> added the proper semantics to others. Both /se lint
> /and /epubcheck/ show no errors. I believe it is

> https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/8-typography#8.2.9 <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.8.0/8-typography#8.2.9>

>
> Names and units of measure (unless they are a
> non-English word) are not
> italicized
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4f1cdeaf-8c75-4552-893c-614f90975441n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4f1cdeaf-8c75-4552-893c-614f90975441n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Hendrik Kaiber]

I was felling unwell and end up not doing anything yesterday. Before I do I have a question:

I made some editorial changes which turned out to be incorrect (like Œuvres -> Oeuvres). Do I change it with a rebase (the "correct" way) or do I simply make a new commit reverting changes like these (the easy way)?

-Hendrik

[Weijia Cheng]

You can just make a new commit reverting those, though in a perfect world it might be preferable to rebase them out.