[Future project] Lavengro: The Scholar, the Gypsy, the Priest by George Borrow

[David Grigg]

I know I'm still finishing up Robbery Under Arms and I also have  Daniel Deronda to finish, but I'd like to stake claim to this book as my next project after that. A friend of mine keeps telling me about it and I've thought of producing it for SE before but was hunting for a good gypsy-themed cover. I think I've finally found it:

It's The Departure of the Hop Pickers by Alfred Munnings, and the PD proof is here:

https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-348752010/view?partId=nla.obj-348802814#page/n62/

[Alex Cabal]

Looks good, thanks!

On 3/25/21 9:35 PM, David Grigg wrote:
> I know I'm still finishing up Robbery Under Arms and I also have  Daniel
> Deronda to finish, but I'd like to stake claim to this book as my next
> project after that. A friend of mine keeps telling me about it and I've
> thought of producing it for SE before but was hunting for a good
> gypsy-themed cover. I think I've finally found it:
>

> LAVENGRO.jpg
>
> It's The Departure of the Hop Pickers

> <https://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/explore/collection/work/4201/> by Alfred

> Munnings, and the PD proof is here:
> https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-348752010/view?partId=nla.obj-348802814#page/n62/
>

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[David]

I'll be waiting and watching! (Patiently... ;) But I noticed this in the Wikipedia page for Lavengro:

> Lavengro was followed by a sequel, The Romany Rye. However, neither of the two books are self-contained. Rather, Lavengro ends abruptly with chapter 100, and carries on directly in The Romany Rye. Thus both need to be read together, in order.

I'm wondering if your energy and generosity extends to the sequel. 😬

D.

[David Grigg]

Yes, My friend had told me that The Romany Rye was really just the excised end of Lavengro, and I’m happy to consolidate it into one book, with a suitable explanation in the long description.

Alex, would we need to think about a title which made this obvious, such as “Lavengro & The Romany Rye”?

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[Alex Cabal]

If they're really just one book, I would simply merge them and call it
"Lavengro". Then make a note in the long description, and you can add an
se:alternate-title element to the metadata so that it comes up in
searches for "Romany Rye".

On 3/27/21 4:53 PM, David Grigg wrote:
> Yes, My friend had told me that The Romany Rye was really just the
> excised end of Lavengro, and I’m happy to consolidate it into one book,
> with a suitable explanation in the long description.
>
> Alex, would we need to think about a title which made this obvious, such
> as “Lavengro & The Romany Rye”?
> On 27 Mar 2021, 10:54 PM +1100, David <djre...@gmail.com>, wrote:
>> I'll be waiting and watching! (Patiently... ;) But I noticed this in

>> the Wikipedia page for /Lavengro/
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavengro>:
>>
>> /> Lavengro/ was followed by a sequel, /The Romany Rye
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Romany_Rye>/. However, neither of
>> the two books are self-contained. Rather, /Lavengro/ ends abruptly
>> with chapter 100, and carries on directly in /The Romany Rye/. Thus

>> both need to be read together, in order.
>>
>> I'm wondering if your energy and generosity extends to the sequel. 😬
>>
>> D.
>>
>> On Friday, 26 March 2021 at 02:35:03 UTC david...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I know I'm still finishing up Robbery Under Arms and I also have
>>  Daniel Deronda to finish, but I'd like to stake claim to this
>> book as my next project after that. A friend of mine keeps telling
>> me about it and I've thought of producing it for SE before but was
>> hunting for a good gypsy-themed cover. I think I've finally found it:
>>

>> LAVENGRO.jpg
>>
>> It's The Departure of the Hop Pickers

>> <https://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/explore/collection/work/4201/> by

>> Alfred Munnings, and the PD proof is here:
>> https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-348752010/view?partId=nla.obj-348802814#page/n62/
>> <https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-348752010/view?partId=nla.obj-348802814#page/n62/>
>>
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[David Grigg]

OK, I’ve started work on this now.

https://github.com/drgrigg/george-borrow_lavengro

[David Grigg]

Alex, 

Wikipedia describes this book as: "falling somewhere between the genres of memoir and novel". So it's not quite fiction, not quite non-fiction but a mix of the two. Do you want me to tag it as z3998:non-fiction or z3998:fiction in the ToC and content.opf?. As far as the SE subjects go, I'm suggesting I'll give it both Fiction and Autobiography. Or is that just weird?

[Alex Cabal]

LoC has it listed as "Romanies--Fiction" so let's call it fiction and
not autobiography

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[David Grigg]

Alex: 

I've got a bit of a dilemma with Lavengro when it comes to semantically tagging Romany words used by George Borrow. It looks like the correct tag for genuine Romany words would be xml:lang="rme" (Angloromani). BUT the problem is that, according to the Introduction to the second book, The Romany Rye, Borrow was a bad philologist and made many, sometimes ludicrous mistakes. Apart from in that Introduction which specifies examples of bad Romany used by Borrow and gives what it should have been, I'm obviously not going to be able to tell if Borrow was correct or not. What should I do with his Romany words, leave them as just plain <i> tags? Or tag them in some way?

[Alex Cabal]

Give them a language tag as usual. Absent an expert there's not much
else we can do.

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[David Grigg]

Ok, great.

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[David Grigg]

Alex: I'm struggling a bit with this project. I've done a fair bit of work already, but I'm considering just abandoning that and starting again.

The problem is really to do with which transcriptions of each of the two books (Lavengro and The Romany Rye) to use.

 There have been any number of editions of Lavengro published, ditto for The Romany Rye. All of them vary greatly, not in the base text, but in the various introductions and commentaries included. For each title, Gutenberg has several transcriptions (Lavengro has five (!) and the Romany Rye has four). I picked the versions which had the most downloads but I now think that was a mistake. I don't at all much like the Introduction to The Romany Rye edition I picked, written by John Sampson, as it's very academic and includes many page number references to an edition of Lavengro which hasn't been transcribed. At the very least I'd like to simply drop that Introduction, but I think a better solution is just to make a wiser choice about the edition.

Here are the various Gutenberg IDs and years of publication of the editions they are based on. I've starred the ones I think I would prefer to base my production on. In neither case is it the one I've been using so far.

Lavengro

Gutenberg ID: 20198, printed: 1893

Gutenberg ID: 452, printed: 1900

Gutenberg ID: 22877, printed: 1901

Gutenberg ID: 23287, printed: 1911 *  (John Murray: this edition says it includes "some suppressed episodes")

Gutenberg ID: 30792, printed: 1914

Romany Rye

Gutenberg ID: 21206, printed: 1900

Gutenberg ID: 25071, printed: 1903

Gutenberg ID: 422, printed: 1907 (Dent)

Gutenberg ID: 54048, printed: 1907 (John Murray) * (matches the Lavengro edition, no 3rd party introduction) 

All of that is a very long-winded way of saying that I think I'm going to start from scratch on this project. I may actually put it aside and work on something simpler for a while.

[Alex Cabal]

That sounds like a good decision. The important thing is that put
together the best edition we can. If that means setting it aside for
now, then no problem.

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[David Grigg]

OK, then this is what I’m going with, the versions edited by William Knapp and published by John Murray/Putnams.

Gutenberg:
Lavengro: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/23287
Romany Rye: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/54048


Page Scans:
Lavengro: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100686950
Romany Rye: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000473342

I’ll delete the existing repository on GitHub and start afresh so we have a clean Git history.

[David Grigg]

I'm back to working hard on this project. It's pretty tough, I have to say! Not only are there regular footnotes in both Lavengro and The Romany Rye, both have extensive and mostly very interesting Notes by the editor at the back of each volume which refer to page numbers in the books. So I'm having to find the referenced word or phrase and turn the editor's note into a regular endnote. Oh yes, and there are also footnotes to the Notes! se renumber-endnotes is going to get a real workout on this project.

None of this is to complain, but just to let you know that this is a long-term project which is going to take me quite a while to complete.

[David Grigg]

Query: These books include a Bibliography, which I'm NOT including, except that where the endnotes refer the read to the Bibliography, I'm including the full title and publication details of the book there in the endnote. All fine and good. But there are occasionally archaic books and the editor (Knapp) has reproduced them like this:

"A Shorte Introdvction of Grammar, generally to be vsed in the Kynges Maiesties dominions, for the bryngynge up of all those that inteade to atteyne the knowlege of the Latine tongue"

Now, I'm not proposing to change the archaic spelling, other than to wonder if the letter 'v' instead of 'u' is just a typographical thing which I SHOULD change?, ie "used" rather than "vsed"?

[Alex Cabal]

Is it like that for all of them?

It could be a joke in the title: Latin inscriptions typically had V for
U and I for J, and this is a book about learning Latin.

> *Gutenberg:*
> Lavengro: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/23287

> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/23287>
> Romany Rye: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/54048

> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/54048>
>
>
> *Page Scans:*
> Lavengro: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100686950

> <https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100686950>
> Romany Rye: https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000473342
> <https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/000473342>
>
> I’ll delete the existing repository on GitHub and start afresh
> so we have a clean Git history.
> On 17 May 2021, 10:29 AM +1000, Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org>, wrote:
>
> That sounds like a good decision. The important thing is
> that put
> together the best edition we can. If that means setting it
> aside for
> now, then no problem.
>
>

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[David Grigg]

I think the Editor is just trying to reproduce the look of the original work. Here’s another one:

The fyrst boke of the Introduction of Knowledge. The which doth teache a man to speake parte of all maner of Languages, and to knowe the vsage and fashion of al maner of coũtreys. And for to knowe the most parte of all maner of Coynes of money, y^e which is curraunt in euery region. Made by Andrew Borde, of Phisicke Doctor. Dedicated to the right Honorable and gracio^s lady Mary doughter of our souerayne lord Kyng Henry the eyght.

After thinking about it, I think I’m just going to leave them as they are, no changes.

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[David Grigg]

Another dilemma with Lavengro (it's a tough book to do, I'm finding!). 

There is HEAPS of foreign language phrases and words to be italicised and tagged (I'm up to 26 distinct languages so far!). But I'm a bit uncertain about tagging every Romany word or phrase, as there are many passages where these are freely interspersed with English and occur many times within a paragraph. 

I'm at the start of Chapter 17, which illustrates the issue : https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lavengro_the_Scholar_the_Gypsy_the_Pries/MaUOAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

They are not italicised in the book, and I fear that doing so consistently will make the text full of on and off again italics. There are also phrases like "farm-engro" and "over-gorgious" where only the latter part is Gypsy. I guess I could just use <span xml:lang="rme"> around the Gypsy bits. Or should I just go ahead and italicise all the Gypsy words regardless? 

[Vince]

That link just goes to the first page; when using the new Google viewer, you have to use the Share item on the vertical elipses menu, not the URL (and sometimes that doesn’t even work). This link worked for me.

The only thing I saw on the first page was “bitchadey pawdel,” so you might have to be more specific about what examples you’re referring to.

[David Grigg]

Thanks, Vince.

Here's a screenshot of part of that chapter, with the italics in. It doesn't look as bad as I feared, but...

[David Grigg]

I think I've probably answered my own question, again. I'll tag and italicise them for now, and we can consider it again later.

[David Grigg]

No, no, I've just found this editorial note, which illustrates the problem much better than the previous passage I quoted (and probably what I was thinking about in my question of 16 June). What am I to do with this? Trying to tag and italicise every Gypsy word is going to be a nightmare and will look terrible on the page.  I'm not even sure I can identify exactly which words are Romany and which are English. Can I tag the WHOLE passage and the following song, as xml:lang="rme" ? I get the impression that the English version of Romany is the whole MIX of English with European Romany.

[Alex Cabal]

You can read the whole thing with a language tag. It looks like some kind of pidgin so if there's no official language tag then make one up with x-

><https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lavengro_the_Scholar_the_Gypsy_the_Pries/MaUOAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA102&printsec=frontcover>

[David Grigg]

OK, so I did some more research, and it’s clear that I can tag whole passages of this “pidgin” with the tag xml:lang=“rme”, which is the code for Angloromani. Here’s Wikipedia:

“Anglo-Romani is a mixed language, with the base languages being Romani and English (something referred to as Para-Romani in Romani linguistics).”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angloromani_language

It does indicate, though, that tagging individual WORDS scattered through Borrow’s text should use the code “rom” (for Romani) rather than “rme” since the latter refers to the “pidgin” Angloromani.

I’m happy to be corrected by any actual Romani people among our producers!

[David Grigg]

Yet another puzzle. Anyone have any clues about the bracketed and italicised word "Wanting" here in Lavengro? Should I cut it out?

[David Grigg]

OK, now I think I've worked it out. The editor Knapp has inserted a number of passages into the text from the manuscript (but which had been cut out in earlier printed editions) and set these off with square brackets.He talks about this in his Editor's Postscript (p. 554 of Lavengro). I think I'm safest to just leave it exactly as in the page scans.

[Alex Cabal]

But what does Wanting mean? I still don't understand.

On 6/20/21 9:25 PM, David Grigg wrote:
> OK, now I think I've worked it out. The editor Knapp has inserted a
> number of passages into the text from the manuscript (but which had been
> cut out in earlier printed editions) and set these off with square
> brackets.He talks about this in his Editor's Postscript (p. 554 of
> Lavengro). I think I'm safest to just leave it exactly as in the page scans.
>
> On Monday, 21 June 2021 at 12:08:16 UTC+10 David Grigg wrote:
>
> Yet another puzzle. Anyone have any clues about the bracketed and
> italicised word "Wanting" here in Lavengro? Should I cut it out?
>

> 2021-06-21 12-05-48.jpg
>
> On Sunday, 20 June 2021 at 09:54:46 UTC+10 David Grigg wrote:
>
>
> OK, so I did some more research, and it’s clear that I can tag
> whole passages of this “pidgin” with the tag xml:lang=“rme”,
> which is the code for Angloromani. Here’s Wikipedia:
>
> “Anglo-Romani is a mixed language

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/mobile-html/Mixed_language>,

> with the base languages being Romani

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/mobile-html/Romani_language> and
> English
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/mobile-html/English_language> (something
> referred to as Para-Romani
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/mobile-html/Para-Romani> in
> Romani linguistics).”
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angloromani_language
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angloromani_language?wprov=sfti1>

> ><https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lavengro_the_Scholar_the_Gypsy_the_Pries/MaUOAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA102&printsec=frontcover <https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lavengro_the_Scholar_the_Gypsy_the_Pries/MaUOAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA102&printsec=frontcover>>

> >https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lavengro_the_Scholar_the_Gypsy_the_Pries/MaUOAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1 <https://www.google.com/books/edition/Lavengro_the_Scholar_the_Gypsy_the_Pries/MaUOAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1>

> >>>>
> >>>> They are not italicised in the book, and I fear that
> doing so
> >>>> consistently will make the text full of on and off
> again italics.
> >There are
> >>>> also phrases like "farm-engro" and "over-gorgious"
> where only the
> >latter
> >>>> part is Gypsy. I guess I could just use <span
> xml:lang="rme">
> >around the
> >>>> Gypsy bits. Or should I just go ahead and italicise
> all the Gypsy
> >words
> >>>> regardless?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>

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[David Grigg]

I THINK that it means there’s a passage missing even from the manuscript the editor has taken the inserted text from. But ”Wanting” is  just going to be confusing for most readers, as it was to you and me. So I’ll remove it. I’m still leaving in the square brackets at the start and end of the larger inserted passages, though.

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[David Grigg]

Getting closer... just slowly working through heaps of lint issues. Here's one I need some guidance on. There are several books referred to in the endnotes with ginormously long titles including punctuated phrases. For example:

The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the famous Moll Flanders, <abbr>etc.</abbr>, who was born in Newgate, and during a Life of continu’d Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Year a W⁠⸺, five times a Wife ⸻, Twelve Year a Thief, Eight Year a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv’d Honest, and died a Penitent. Written from her own Memorandums.

Now, out of all that, what do I semanticate and italicise? Just the first bit up to the first comma? The whole thing? Lint complains about punctuation within an <i> tag unless it's a complete phrase. But I guess in a sense this IS a complete phrase if I put it all in.

Oh, and should I run our titlecase function over it?

[David Grigg]

By the way, it would be REALLY nice if the warning t-042 “Possible typo” could mention which WORD it thinks is misspelled. I’ve got a passage long passage flagged where the only candidate I can identify is that lint thinks “Orford” should be “Oxford”, which it shouldn’t. But I’m guessing!

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[Vince Rice]

Yes, this has been on my list of things to look at for a while. I have three and four page-long paragraphs in Gibbon, and this message is useless for those.

There are four or five different things it can mean: two periods in a row, two words in a row (and, of, etc.), a quote mark going the wrong way, and a couple of others I don’t recall right now.

On Jun 29, 2021, at 1:52 AM, David Grigg <david...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Alex Cabal]

It could mean a large number of things but spelling isn't one of them.
It may also be a false positive. I considered breaking up t-042 into
individual detailed messages but that would mean adding 10+ different
messages which I just didn't have time for. You could send the message
to the list to see if anyone can spot a problem.

>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angloromani_language?wprov=sfti1

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[Alex Cabal]

You can italicize the whole thing, and run titlecase.

>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/mobile-html/Para-Romani <https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/mobile-html/Para-Romani>> in

>>> Romani linguistics).”
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angloromani_language
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angloromani_language>

>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angloromani_language?wprov=sfti1

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[Vince]

Doing a PR for this is on my list of todos. I think separate messages would be best, but if you prefer not, my initial thought was to build up a short comma-delimited list that would be added on to the “Possible typo” message at the end, e.g. something like "Possible typo(s): lowercase dialog, consecutive periods, quote space".

Which would you prefer?

[Alex Cabal]

That might be a good compromise

On 6/29/21 5:04 PM, Vince wrote:
> Doing a PR for this is on my list of todos. I think separate messages
> would be best, but if you prefer not, my initial thought was to build up
> a short comma-delimited list that would be added on to the “Possible
> typo” message at the end, e.g. something like "Possible typo(s):
> lowercase dialog, consecutive periods, quote space".
>
> Which would you prefer?
>
>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org

>> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>>
>> It could mean a large number of things but spelling isn't one of them.
>> It may also be a false positive. I considered breaking up t-042 into
>> individual detailed messages but that would mean adding 10+ different
>> messages which I just didn't have time for. You could send the message
>> to the list to see if anyone can spot a problem.
>

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[David Grigg]

In that case I think that the word "typo" is misleading. To me, that's always meant a misspelling. Could we make it: "Possible text error: lowercase dialog, consecutive periods, quote space". ?

I'm still hunting for what is wrong in these passages!

[Alex Cabal]

Those are all typos though

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[David Grigg]

Perhaps so, but I still think the term is misleading for newbies (and to me!).

For the life of me I can't spot the errors in the flagged passages. I'm going to run lint in debug mode so I can get a better sense of what it's complaining about.

[Alex Cabal]

Send the text over so we can take a look

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[Vince]

Well, a typo is more than just a mis-spelling—it’s short for typographical error, after all, which can be any number of things.

The list of errors that t-042 covers is:

• Dialog beginning with a lowercase letter
• A space before a closing quote, or after an opening quote (either double or single)
• Consecutive periods, e.g. ..
• Mis-curled lsquo (usually a lsquo at the front of an elided word) or an lsquo without corresponding rsquo
• Closing rdquo without opening ldquo
• Consecutive comma period, e.g. ,.
• Two quotations in one paragraph. “First quotation.” “Second quotation.”
• Dashes instead of em-dashes. It’s looking for a dash in front of the|there|is|and|they|when.
• Missing punctuation before a conjunction, e.g. But|And|For|Nor|Yet|Or

Ideally, these would be separate errors, and each would show at least the text of the first error in the paragraph, but here we are.

[David Grigg]

Well, here's one passage it flags. No dialog, no dashes, no quotes.

<p>For my own part I wished for nothing better, and, rushing forward, I placed myself at the head of my new associates, and commenced flinging stones fast and desperately. The other party now gave way in their turn, closely followed by ourselves; I was in the van and about to stretch out my hand to seize the hindermost boy of the enemy, when, not being acquainted with the miry and difficult paths of the Nor Loch, and in my eagerness taking no heed of my footing, I plunged into a quagmire, into which I sank as far as my shoulders. Our adversaries no sooner perceived this disaster, than, setting up a shout, they wheeled round and attacked us most vehemently. Had my comrades now deserted me, my life had not been worth a straw’s purchase, I should either have been smothered in the quag, or, what is more probable, had my brains beaten out with stones; but they behaved like true Scots, and fought stoutly around their comrade, until I was extricated, whereupon both parties retired, the night being near at hand.</p>

[Alex Cabal]

This is a false positive on Nor which lint thinks is a conjunction
missing preceding punctuation. You can ignore it.

On 6/29/21 7:58 PM, David Grigg wrote:
>
> Well, here's one passage it flags. No dialog, no dashes, no quotes.
>
> <p>For my own part I wished for nothing better, and, rushing forward, I
> placed myself at the head of my new associates, and commenced flinging
> stones fast and desperately. The other party now gave way in their turn,
> closely followed by ourselves; I was in the van and about to stretch out
> my hand to seize the hindermost boy of the enemy, when, not being
> acquainted with the miry and difficult paths of the Nor Loch, and in my
> eagerness taking no heed of my footing, I plunged into a quagmire, into
> which I sank as far as my shoulders. Our adversaries no sooner perceived
> this disaster, than, setting up a shout, they wheeled round and attacked
> us most vehemently. Had my comrades now deserted me, my life had not
> been worth a straw’s purchase, I should either have been smothered in
> the quag, or, what is more probable, had my brains beaten out with
> stones; but they behaved like true Scots, and fought stoutly around
> their comrade, until I was extricated, whereupon both parties retired,
> the night being near at hand.</p>
>
> On Wednesday, 30 June 2021 at 10:53:23 UTC+10 Vince wrote:
>
> Well, a typo is more than just a mis-spelling—it’s short for
> typographical error, after all, which can be any number of things.
>
> The list of errors that t-042 covers is:
>

> * Dialog beginning with a lowercase letter
> * A space before a closing quote, or after an opening quote
> (either double or single)
> * Consecutive periods, e.g. ..
> * Mis-curled lsquo (usually a lsquo at the front of an elided

> word) or an lsquo without corresponding rsquo

> * Closing rdquo without opening ldquo
> * Consecutive comma period, e.g. ,.
> * Two quotations in one paragraph. “First quotation.” “Second
> quotation.”
> * Dashes instead of em-dashes. It’s looking for a dash in front of

> the|there|is|and|they|when.

> * Missing punctuation before a conjunction,

> e.g. But|And|For|Nor|Yet|Or
>
>
> Ideally, these would be separate errors, and each would show at
> least the text of the first error in the paragraph, but here we are.
>
>> On Jun 29, 2021, at 7:39 PM, David Grigg <david...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In that case I think that the word "typo" is misleading. To me,
>> that's always meant a misspelling. Could we make it: "Possible
>> text error: lowercase dialog, consecutive periods, quote space". ?
>>
>> I'm still hunting for what is wrong in these passages!
>

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[David Grigg]

OK, thanks. I would never have found it for myself. There are quite a few of these, as it’s Scots for “North”. I might put it in se-lint-ignore for these files.

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[David Grigg]

OK! This is finally ready for review:

https://github.com/drgrigg/george-borrow_lavengro.git

Boy, this was a tough project, probably the toughest I've yet done, Clarissa Harlowe included (though it's of course not as long as that, nevertheless it's almost 400,000 words!). The notes at the back of each book were a nightmare, because I had to find and tag all the references manually. And then there was the glossary of gypsy words... 

Still, I'm glad I did it. It was a really entertaining read.

I have no doubts that there'll be a heap of issues the reviewer finds, but let's work through them.

[Alex Cabal]

Can you run `se find-mismatched-diacritics` and `se
find-mismatched-dashes` on this and fix any actual errors up? Note that
diacritics will match upper and lowercased twice so just consider all of
them to be case-insensitive. That's something to be improved for the
next version.

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[David Grigg]

Alex:

I understand what you are trying to get me to do with the diacritics; but in the majority of cases flagged by the command I'm very reluctant to include the diacritics in Borrow's text. The point is that the editor, W. I. Knapp, knew of Borrow's poor grasp of Romani and whereas Knapp's notes have the correct spelling and accents for Romani, he's constantly pointing out where Borrow got it wrong and how in many cases Borrow was reproducing Romani just by the sound. Because of that it doesn't seem right to retrospectively go back to "fix" Borrow's text by introducing correct spelling and accents, because that would make a nonsense of many of Knapp's notes. I've carefully matched Borrow's mispelled and unaccented gypsy words to the correct versions in the Glossary by the entries in glossary-search-key-map.xml and documented this approach in the production notes.

Also, the page scans include the diacritics within Knapp's notes, but not in the body of Borrow's text.

If you don't accept the above logic then I'm prepared to make the diacritics constant throughout, but I would really rather not.

Some of the same logic applies to the results of find-mismatched-dashes. I really don't want to change Borrow's boshom-engro to boshomengro, etc. because we're losing notable indications of Borrow's limitations in his knowledge of Romani. The rest of the flagged items generated by this command seem to be a matter of my needing to run modernize-spelling again on the endnotes, which I'm happy to do.

[David Grigg]

OK, I've now made all the changes which I'm happy to make as flagged by find-mismatched-diacritics and find-mismatched-dashes and pushed it as an Editorial commit.

As an illustration of my point in the previous post, consider endnote 312 where Knapp corrects Borrow:

<li id="note-312" epub:type="endnote">

<p><b>Kopacs Teto</b>, read “Kopász Tetö.” <cite>—⁠Knapp</cite> <a href="chapter-2-39.xhtml#noteref-312" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

</li>

Fixing Borrow's original text would make a nonsense of this note.

[Alex Cabal]

Then I guess the ultimate question is, if we have the correct spellings
as endnotes, why not just correctly spell those items to begin with and
get rid of those endnotes?

On 7/4/21 8:19 PM, David Grigg wrote:
> OK, I've now made all the changes which I'm happy to make as flagged by
> find-mismatched-diacritics and find-mismatched-dashes and pushed it as
> an Editorial commit.
>
> As an illustration of my point in the previous post, consider endnote
> 312 where Knapp corrects Borrow:
>
> <li id="note-312" epub:type="endnote">
> <p><b>Kopacs Teto</b>, read “Kopász Tetö.” <cite>—⁠Knapp</cite> <a
> href="chapter-2-39.xhtml#noteref-312" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
> </li>
>
> Fixing Borrow's original text would make a nonsense of this note.
>
> On Sunday, 4 July 2021 at 14:42:55 UTC+10 David Grigg wrote:
>
> Alex:
>
> I understand what you are trying to get me to do with the
> diacritics; but in the majority of cases flagged by the command I'm

> very reluctant to include the diacritics in /Borrow's/ text. The

> point is that the editor, W. I. Knapp, knew of Borrow's poor grasp
> of Romani and whereas Knapp's notes have the correct spelling and
> accents for Romani, he's constantly pointing out where Borrow got it
> wrong and how in many cases Borrow was reproducing Romani just by
> the sound. Because of that it doesn't seem right to retrospectively
> go back to "fix" Borrow's text by introducing correct spelling and
> accents, because that would make a nonsense of many of Knapp's
> notes. I've carefully matched Borrow's mispelled and unaccented
> gypsy words to the correct versions in the Glossary by the entries
> in glossary-search-key-map.xml and documented this approach in the
> production notes.
>

> Also, the page scans include the diacritics within /Knapp's/ notes,
> but not in the body of /Borrow's/ text.

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[David Grigg]

Well, because Knapp (and editors of several other editions I’ve looked at) are making a point that Borrow’s grasp of Romany (and Armenian, and Old Norse, and Irish, etc, etc) wasn’t as good as he pretends. 

Changing all the spellings throughout Borrow’s text would be a radical revision of his work. Why didn’t Knapp do that himself, and lose his endnotes? I think a “corrected” version of Borrow would be a fundamental change to the original.

Would we go back and fill in the blanks Borrow has left for the names of cities and people, which Knapp supplies in the endnotes? I don’t think so.

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[Alex Cabal]

OK, got it. Very good work David, this was indeed a monumental
production. Thanks!

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/690c82f4-2d8e-4040-b24c-c70437faa666%40Spark
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/690c82f4-2d8e-4040-b24c-c70437faa666%40Spark?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[David Grigg]

Thanks, Alex. Now to go back to Little Dorrit for light relief!