Pensées by Blaise Pascal

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Matt Chan

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Jul 26, 2022, 9:23:27 PMJul 26
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This work is on Gutenberg and Hathitrust, but the publication date seems late for it to be PD (1958), anyone know what gives?

Vince

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Jul 26, 2022, 9:36:19 PMJul 26
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Works prior to 1964 fall out of copyright if it wasn’t renewed; that’s how we have so much science-fiction from the fifties.

Matt Chan

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Jul 26, 2022, 9:38:42 PMJul 26
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Thanks Vince. This is excellent news; I'd like to work on this next while I slowly dig away (again) on Confucius?

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Alex Cabal

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Jul 27, 2022, 12:28:48 PMJul 27
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Robin, can you manage this with David reviewing?

On 7/26/22 8:38 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Thanks Vince. This is excellent news; I'd like to work on this next
> while I slowly dig away (again) on Confucius?
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 9:36 PM Vince <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>> wrote:
>
> Works prior to 1964 fall out of copyright if it wasn’t renewed;
> that’s how we have so much science-fiction from the fifties.
>
>
>> On Jul 26, 2022, at 8:23 PM, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> This work is on Gutenberg and Hathitrust, but the publication date
>> seems late for it to be PD (1958), anyone know what gives?
>>
>> https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18269
>> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/18269>
>> https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001799618
>> <https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001799618>
>
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Robin Whittleton

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Jul 27, 2022, 12:44:09 PMJul 27
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Yep.

> On 27 Jul 2022, at 18:29, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>
> Robin, can you manage this with David reviewing?
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Matt Chan

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Jul 27, 2022, 12:50:52 PMJul 27
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Thanks Alex, Robin, and David. I will get it going!

David Grigg

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Jul 27, 2022, 6:53:58 PMJul 27
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Matt Chan

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Jul 29, 2022, 7:05:25 PMJul 29
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What do you all think is the best way to typeset this? MathML?

image.png


Matt Chan

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Jul 29, 2022, 7:10:08 PMJul 29
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And this:

image.png
Should this be a diagram via SVG?

Robin Whittleton

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Jul 30, 2022, 6:20:31 AMJul 30
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For the first, there’s no particularly good way of doing it. I’ve in the past hacked together some CSS to do this for Tristram Shandy, so you could reuse that if you want? Example: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/laurence-sterne/the-life-and-opinions-of-tristram-shandy-gentleman/text/chapter-7-31

For the second, definitely an SVG. Set the text as actual text nodes (with no font reference beyond serif) and the lines as lines. You can find a similar example in Pepys Diaryhttps://standardebooks.org/ebooks/samuel-pepys/the-diary/images/illustration-1.svg

-Robin

On 30 Jul 2022, at 01:09, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:

And this:

<image.png>
Should this be a diagram via SVG?
On Fri, Jul 29, 2022 at 7:05 PM Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:
What do you all think is the best way to typeset this? MathML?

<image.png>

Matt Chan

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Jul 30, 2022, 8:17:24 PMJul 30
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Thanks Robin, that's super helpful! I'll give it a try.

C T

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Aug 2, 2022, 7:04:17 AMAug 2
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I also did a bracketed list in The Path to Rome, check out the CSS there as well.

On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 6:20 AM Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net> wrote:

Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 2:46:31 PMAug 3
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Another question, the book has an index and the transcription has transcriber's notes, do we keep any of those?
image.png

image.png



Robin Whittleton

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Aug 3, 2022, 2:59:37 PMAug 3
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Cut them both, neither are something we’d usually keep.

-Robin

On 3 Aug 2022, at 20:46, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Another question, the book has an index and the transcription has transcriber's notes, do we keep any of those?
<image.png>

<image.png>


Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 3:01:21 PMAug 3
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Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 7:29:37 PMAug 3
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Should there be any special treatment like a no-break space for surnames that are multiple words? Like "Mr.<nbsp>La Forge"?

Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 9:33:32 PMAug 3
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If an inline quote is italicized by <i> element, do we keep them? Change it to some other element with semantics? Remove them? Or change to quotes?

E.g.
<p><em>Rivers are</em>, <abbr>etc.</abbr>⁠—Apparently suggested by a chapter in Rabelais: <i>How we descended in the isle of Odes, in which the roads walk</i>. <a href="section-1.xhtml#noteref-12" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Matt Chan

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Aug 3, 2022, 10:06:06 PMAug 3
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In an endnote with a <cite> element, does the chapter/page/etc number fall into the <cite> element or outside? E.g:

<li id="note-20" epub:type="endnote">
    <p><em xml:lang="la">Ambitiosa recidet ornamenta.</em>⁠<cite>—Horace, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="la">De Arte Poetica</i>, 447.</cite> <a href="section-1.xhtml#noteref-20" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>
</li>

David Grigg

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Aug 3, 2022, 10:22:41 PMAug 3
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Outside.

Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 10:08:56 AMAug 4
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Thanks David; any ideas about my previous 2 questions?

Alex Cabal

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Aug 4, 2022, 12:55:31 PMAug 4
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Robin is managing this one, he should get to you shortly

On 8/4/22 9:08 AM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Thanks David; any ideas about my previous 2 questions?
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2022 at 10:22 PM David Grigg <david...@gmail.com
> <mailto:david...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Outside.
>
> On Thursday, 4 August 2022 at 12:06:06 UTC+10 thew...@gmail.com
>> for /Tristram Shandy/, so you could
>> reuse that if you want? Example:
>> https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/laurence-sterne/the-life-and-opinions-of-tristram-shandy-gentleman/text/chapter-7-31
>> <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/laurence-sterne/the-life-and-opinions-of-tristram-shandy-gentleman/text/chapter-7-31>
>>
>> For the second, definitely an SVG. Set
>> the text as actual text nodes (with no
>> font reference beyond serif) and the
>> lines as lines. You can find a similar
>> example in /Pepys Diary/:
>> https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/samuel-pepys/the-diary/images/illustration-1.svg
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4574B895-7677-48EB-97B4-D840FA72D12B%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/4574B895-7677-48EB-97B4-D840FA72D12B%40letterboxes.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
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Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 1:01:10 PMAug 4
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Thanks Alex, no rush to Robin/David, just wanted to make sure I didn't bury my own questions

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:07:23 PMAug 4
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Typically no, but given that La is so short it might be worth it in this case. How does it look if you do it?.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:11:19 PMAug 4
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Hard to tell, I just thought it's kind of strange to keep Mr. La together but not Mr. La Forge, if that's the whole name. I can leave it alone for now.

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:20:14 PMAug 4
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Is this a chapter title? Either way, removing the italics and adding quote marks seems to be the correct course of action.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:26:11 PMAug 4
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Not a chapter title, but yes I can remove the italics and add quotes.

Robin here's a related question, in most of the end notes, it took the passage the endnote is notating and put that in italics. I'm unsure what to do with this, it uses <i>, I can change it to <em> but not sure if it makes semantic sense. I can change those to quotes as well, which makes sense in my head but not sure if that's what's accepted. Here's an example:
Endnote:
image.png
Which is quoting:
image.png

Relatedly, some of the "fragments" in each section (chapters) have "headings" of a sort. In the text they are again set with italics (<i>) followed by em dash.
Here's an example:

image.png
(I've chosen to use PG as the screenshot here since it's clearer than the book scans, rest assure that the book looks the "same")

For now I have changed the <i> to <em>, but again, not sure if that's the correct course of action?

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:29:27 PMAug 4
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I use a <dfn> element for those: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-dfn-element . You’d need to add a CSS to italicise dfn as well.

On 4 Aug 2022, at 20:25, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not a chapter title, but yes I can remove the italics and add quotes.

Robin here's a related question, in most of the end notes, it took the passage the endnote is notating and put that in italics. I'm unsure what to do with this, it uses <i>, I can change it to <em> but not sure if it makes semantic sense. I can change those to quotes as well, which makes sense in my head but not sure if that's what's accepted. Here's an example:
Endnote:
<image.png>
Which is quoting:
<image.png>

Relatedly, some of the "fragments" in each section (chapters) have "headings" of a sort. In the text they are again set with italics (<i>) followed by em dash.
Here's an example:

Matt Chan

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Aug 4, 2022, 2:34:16 PMAug 4
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Got it. I will change the endnote quotes to quotation mark and get rid italics (unless foreign phrase), and use this <dfn> for body headings.

Matt Chan

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Aug 5, 2022, 5:45:17 PMAug 5
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Double checking: do we do anything to commas and periods inside vs. outside of parentheses? Or leave as they are in transcription/page scans?

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 6, 2022, 3:20:20 AMAug 6
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Parentheses? Leave them as per the source, we don’t have any rule here that I’m aware of.

On 5 Aug 2022, at 23:45, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:



Vince Rice

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Aug 6, 2022, 11:13:16 AMAug 6
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We do, actually. See the first item in the common issues guide, https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/common-issues-when-working-on-public-domain-ebooks

Matt Chan

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Aug 6, 2022, 11:21:18 AMAug 6
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Thanks Vince, I might be wrong but I can't find this in the Manual, maybe we should add it? 

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Vince Rice

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Aug 6, 2022, 11:48:09 AMAug 6
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It's not in the manual, that's why it's in common issues. :) The manual is "this is the way a book should look"; the step-by-step and especially the common issues deal with things we encounter in getting them there. Alex mentioned adding a link to common issues from the step by step; I haven't looked recently, so I don't know if that's happened yet.

On Aug 6, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com> wrote:


Matt Chan

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Aug 6, 2022, 11:55:34 AMAug 6
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There is a punctuation section in the manual, and a specific entry that mentions whether or not periods/commas should be inside or outside quotes (8.7.2), I feel like there could be an entry in the manual mentioning the same thing about parentheses? I feel like if the "common issue" contains "rules" not mentioned in the menu it might create confusion (as it did for me)?

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Alex Cabal

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Aug 6, 2022, 12:07:36 PMAug 6
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Punctuation in parenthesis follows the grammar of the subclause so the
rules are complicated and not something that was ever different between
countries or over the years. If you want to do the research and put
together the complete rule set for that case then you can open a PR on
the manual.

On 8/6/22 10:55 AM, Matt Chan wrote:
> There is a punctuation section in the manual, and a specific entry that
> mentions whether or not periods/commas should be inside or outside
> quotes (8.7.2), I feel like there could be an entry in the manual
> mentioning the same thing about parentheses? I feel like if the "common
> issue" contains "rules" not mentioned in the menu it might create
> confusion (as it did for me)?
>
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:48 AM Vince Rice <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>> wrote:
>
> It's not in the manual, that's why it's in common issues. :) The
> manual is "this is the way a book should look"; the step-by-step and
> especially the common issues deal with things we encounter in
> getting them there. Alex mentioned adding a link to common issues
> from the step by step; I haven't looked recently, so I don't know if
> that's happened yet.
>
>> On Aug 6, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Vince, I might be wrong but I can't find this in the
>> Manual, maybe we should add it?
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 6, 2022, 11:13 AM Vince Rice
>> <vr_se...@letterboxes.org <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> We do, actually. See the first item in the common issues
>> guide,
>> https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/common-issues-when-working-on-public-domain-ebooks
>> <https://standardebooks.org/contribute/how-tos/common-issues-when-working-on-public-domain-ebooks>.
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 6, 2022, at 2:20 AM, Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
>>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Parentheses? Leave them as per the source, we don’t have any
>>> rule here that I’m aware of.
>>>
>>>> On 5 Aug 2022, at 23:45, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Double checking: do we do anything to commas and periods
>>>> inside vs. outside of parentheses? Or leave as they are in
>>>> transcription/page scans?
>>
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Matt Chan

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Aug 6, 2022, 12:09:52 PMAug 6
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Okay Alex, I'll try to do some reading on this and report back.

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Matt Chan

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Aug 8, 2022, 8:36:51 PMAug 8
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Alex, I'm waiting to check the official Chicago style manual, but broadly speaking the rule seems to be that if punctuation should go in/out of a parentheses in the way that if you remove the entire parenthetical section what remains can stand on its own. Therefore:

1. Let's go. (I already paid.) → Let's go.
2. Let's go. (I already paid). → Let's go..

In this case 1. is correct; removing the parenthetical section left a proper sentence, but 2. is incorrect because it left an extra period.

On the other hand:

1. The meeting is at 11 o'clock (eastern standard time.) → The meeting is at 11 o'clock
2. The meeting is at 11 o'clock (eastern standard time). → The meeting is at 11 o'clock.

In this case 2. is correct, because in 1. removing the parenthetical section left what remained without a terminal period.

I will update as I keep digging.

Matt Chan

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Aug 8, 2022, 8:47:47 PMAug 8
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For an abbreviation of the title of a book, would we still italicize it? If so, would we add the book epub attribute to <abbr> and use CSS to italicize (<abbr epub:type="se...), or do we do <abbr><i epub:type="se... ? (Incidentally, the abbreviated, book title might be foreign as well, but I can't really tell because the abbreviation is Ann. for Annals in English, or Annales in Latin, I can use some guidance here as well.)

Robin Whittleton

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Aug 9, 2022, 1:13:40 PMAug 9
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I’d go <i epub:type=“se…”><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i> . I’d suggest just leaving it as English here.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Aug 9, 2022, 1:20:34 PMAug 9
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Thanks Robin, I will do so.

Matt Chan

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Aug 23, 2022, 9:41:11 PMAug 23
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Double-checking: Vulgate, which is the specific Latin translation of the Christian Bible, is that word itself quoted/italicized etc.?

Alex Cabal

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Aug 23, 2022, 9:55:26 PMAug 23
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As in the Vulgate Bible? Neither, it's a holy book.

On 8/23/22 8:40 PM, Matt Chan wrote:
> Double-checking: Vulgate, which is the specific Latin translation of the
> Christian Bible, is that word itself quoted/italicized etc.?
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:20 PM Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks Robin, I will do so.
>
> On Tue, Aug 9, 2022 at 1:13 PM Robin Whittleton <ro...@reala.net
> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>> wrote:
>
> I’d go <i epub:type=“se…”><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i> . I’d suggest
> just leaving it as English here.
>
> -Robin
>
>> On 9 Aug 2022, at 02:47, Matt Chan <thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> For an abbreviation of the title of a book, would we still
>> italicize it? If so, would we add the book epub attribute to
>> <abbr> and use CSS to italicize (<abbr epub:type="se...), or
>> do we do <abbr><i epub:type="se... ? (Incidentally, the
>> abbreviated, book title might be foreign as well, but I can't
>> really tell because the abbreviation is Ann. for Annals in
>> English, or/Annales/in Latin, I can use some guidance here as
>> > <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
>> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org>>> wrote:
>> >
>> >     It's not in the manual, that's why it's in
>> common issues. :) The
>> >     manual is "this is the way a book should
>> look"; the step-by-step and
>> >     especially the common issues deal with
>> things we encounter in
>> >     getting them there. Alex mentioned adding a
>> link to common issues
>> >     from the step by step; I haven't looked
>> recently, so I don't know if
>> >     that's happened yet.
>> >
>> >>     On Aug 6, 2022, at 10:21 AM, Matt Chan
>> <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
>> >>     <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>> >>     
>> >>     Thanks Vince, I might be wrong but I can't
>> find this in the
>> >>     Manual, maybe we should add it?
>> >>
>> >>     On Sat, Aug 6, 2022, 11:13 AM Vince Rice
>> >>     <vr_se...@letterboxes.org
>> <mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org><mailto:vr_se...@letterboxes.org
>> >>>         <mailto:ro...@reala.net
>> <mailto:ro...@reala.net>>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>         Parentheses? Leave them as per the
>> source, we don’t have any
>> >>>         rule here that I’m aware of.
>> >>>
>> >>>>         On 5 Aug 2022, at 23:45, Matt Chan
>> <thew...@gmail.com <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>         <mailto:thew...@gmail.com
>> <mailto:thew...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>> >>>>         
>> >>>>         Double checking: do we do anything to
>> commas and periods
>> >>>>         inside vs. outside of parentheses? Or
>> leave as they are in
>> >>>>         transcription/page scans?
>> >>
>> >     --
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Matt Chan

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Aug 23, 2022, 10:19:44 PMAug 23
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Yep, and thanks for confirming.

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Matt Chan

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Sep 3, 2022, 3:26:19 PMSep 3
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For an endnote that looks like this:

"Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus."⁠—Montaigne, Essais, III, 13. Tacitus, Ann., III, 25. ↩

Would I wrap both references in a <cite> altogether? That is:

 <p>"<i xml:lang="la">Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus.</i>"⁠<cite>—Montaigne, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 13. Tacitus, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book"><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 25</cite>. <a href="section-5.xhtml#noteref-116" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Something like this? Or is the <cite> tags not necessary in this case, or perhaps the formatting is in some other ways?

Matt Chan

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Sep 3, 2022, 8:47:30 PMSep 3
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One more question, does abbreviation right before an em dash require the class="eoc" attribute? E.g.:

<p>"When it is said, <abbr class="eoc">etc.</abbr>"⁠—By Descartes.</p>

B Keith

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Sep 4, 2022, 10:08:28 AMSep 4
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My. understanding is the eoc  class is used to indicate that the period is doing double duty as a full stop and an indicator it is an abbreviation— so no it is not necessary before an em dash.

Robin Whittleton

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Sep 4, 2022, 2:14:11 PMSep 4
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In this case it’s inside a closing quote, so is both finishing the sentence and indicating an abbreviation: eoc is right.

Either way, dual citations isn’t something we have in SEMOS. Looking at the HTML spec for <cite> it seems we’re getting even our normal citations wrong:

The cite element represents the title of a work […] A person's name is not the title of a work — even if people call that person a piece of work — and the element must therefore not be used to mark up people's names.

Does it look OK with two <cite> elements, one for each work / author pair? If so I’d probably go with that for the time being.

-Robin

Matt Chan

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Sep 4, 2022, 5:39:37 PMSep 4
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Thanks Robin, I will add class="eoc" for all <abbr> elements for those inside a quote that ends right before an em dash.

Here's what adding two <cite> element would look code wise:

<p>"<i xml:lang="la">Ut olim⁠ ⁠… laboramus.</i>"⁠<cite>—Montaigne, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 13</cite>. <cite>Tacitus, <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book"><abbr>Ann.</abbr></i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>, 25</cite>. <a href="section-5.xhtml#noteref-116" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

So the first <cite> would end right before the period, and the next one begins right after the period. In this case there will not be an em dash that precedes the author being cited. Is that okay?

I have a follow up question regarding <cite>; I've been adding them only if it's formatted like so in the original text:

<p>"<i xml:lang="la">Noli me tangere.</i>"⁠<cite>—John 20:17</cite>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-210" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

However, in many of the endnotes we also have something like:

<p>"Corneille."⁠—See his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.play">Horace</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">III</span>. <a href="section-7.xhtml#noteref-202" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

In this case I did not add a <cite> tag because of some extra words before the reference, like "See his..." etc. Is that the way to go about it? Or should they get <cite> tags regardless? And if so, when do we close the <cite> tag given the extra text? Another more extensive example I'm iffy on might be (here I did not add the <cite> tag because of extra text before and after the reference):

<p>"They win battles."⁠—Montaigne, in his <i epub:type="se:name.publication.book" xml:lang="fr">Essais</i>, <span epub:type="z3998:roman">II</span>, 12, relates that the Portuguese were compelled to raise the siege of Tamly on account of the number of flies. <a href="section-6.xhtml#noteref-153" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Thanks for the attention!

Matt Chan

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Sep 4, 2022, 5:52:47 PMSep 4
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I'm sorry but one more question about <cite>... in a previous answer David said chapter numbers etc. falls outside of <cite>, but an exception is made for Bible verses, correct?

So:
<p>“And the Christians, <abbr class="eoc>etc.</abbr>”⁠<cite>—Romans 6:20; 8:14–15</cite>. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-256" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

Or:
<p>“And the Christians, <abbr class="eoc>etc.</abbr>”⁠<cite>—Romans</cite> 6:20; 8:14–15. <a href="section-10.xhtml#noteref-256" epub:type="backlink">↩</a></p>

 Which one is correct? What if the citation is to two or more different books of the Bible? Would we do two <cite> elements like we discussed above?

Robin Whittleton

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Sep 5, 2022, 1:22:29 PMSep 5