[Next Project] The Old Curiosity Shop, by Charles Dickens

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James Huang

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Jan 10, 2022, 1:00:42 PMJan 10
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I'd like to do this for my next project. I'll be using
I'll include the Preface, which is in the IA scan but not the PG transcription. The PG transcription does not seem to be based on the book form of the work. Aside from the missing Preface, the PG transcription is also missing paragraphs that were added to Chapters 1 and 4 of the book form.

Alex Cabal

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Jan 10, 2022, 1:02:16 PMJan 10
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Can you find a later set of page scans? 1871 is pretty early for
Dickens. Later editions are probably better, I'd be surprised if you
couldn't find one from the 1900s.

There were a billion editions of Dickens, all of them vary in some way
or another.

On 1/10/22 12:00 PM, James Huang wrote:
> I'd like to do this for my next project. I'll be using
>
> * https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/700
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/700>
> * https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_kIvcDeJ_J34C
> <https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_kIvcDeJ_J34C>
>
> I'll include the Preface, which is in the IA scan but not the PG
> transcription. The PG transcription does not seem to be based on the
> book form of the work. Aside from the missing Preface, the PG
> transcription is also missing paragraphs that were added to Chapters 1
> and 4 of the book form.
>
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James Huang

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Jan 10, 2022, 1:37:31 PMJan 10
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I chose this scan because it's a relatively clean scan of a beautiful edition by Chapman and Hall, the English publisher of many of Dickens's works. But, just so I know, why is there a preference for scans of later editions?

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Alex Cabal

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Jan 10, 2022, 1:39:24 PMJan 10
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Later editions often correct typos, may have interesting annotations,
almost always have more modern spelling, may have more modern dialog
punctuation, and may even represent a more complete vision of the
author's work. For Dickens the last point isn't so important because he
wasn't an author that had some long-lost revision discovered, but the
rest certainly are.
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James Huang

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Jan 13, 2022, 2:12:24 PMJan 13
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Ok to use the below scan of a 1905 edition by Blackie & Son?


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Alex Cabal

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Jan 13, 2022, 2:25:00 PMJan 13
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Ok!

James Huang

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Jan 13, 2022, 3:42:48 PMJan 13
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James Huang

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Jan 14, 2022, 2:16:44 PMJan 14
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The 1905 edition by Blackie & Son on IA has turned out to be a specially produced edition that makes it an inappropriate scan to use. A comparison of its first ten chapters against the PG transcription reveals that it edits out, as much as possible, passages relating to alcohol consumption. It also removes the word "devil." For those interested, the attached PDF shows these changes.

Hathi Trust has a scan of a Blackie & Son edition without these changes here. This scan, however, does not show a publication date. The Hathi Trust catalog record shows a 1905 publication date but with a question mark.

Back to the drawing board.

OCS compare.pdf

Alex Cabal

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Jan 14, 2022, 6:10:23 PMJan 14
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Interesting! You can just use the original scans you found then. Not a
big deal. But I'm glad you realized there were differences.

It's this kind of thing that I point to when people complain that we
modernize spelling and so on. Editors have been changing texts quietly
under everyone's noses for centuries, and for even the most famous texts
there's rarely a single "definitive" edition. That's just the publishing
industry and SE is no different in that regard. I suppose our mistake if
we made one was to advertise it at first!

On 1/14/22 2:16 PM, James Huang wrote:
> The 1905 edition by Blackie & Son on IA has turned out to be a specially
> produced edition that makes it an inappropriate scan to use. A
> comparison of its first ten chapters against the PG transcription
> reveals that it edits out, as much as possible, passages relating to
> alcohol consumption. It also removes the word "devil." For those
> interested, the attached PDF shows these changes.
>
> Hathi Trust has a scan of a Blackie & Son edition without these changes
> here
> <https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044086820552&view=1up&seq=6&skin=2021>.
> This scan, however, does not show a publication date. The Hathi Trust
> catalog record shows a 1905 publication date but with a question mark.
>
> Back to the drawing board.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 3:42 PM James Huang <jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Here's the link to my repo:
>
> https://github.com/jashua212/charles-dickens_the-old-curiosity-shop
> <https://github.com/jashua212/charles-dickens_the-old-curiosity-shop>
>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 2:25 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> Ok!
>
> On January 13, 2022 2:12:00 PM EST, James Huang
> <jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Ok to use the below scan of a 1905 edition by Blackie & Son?
>
> https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog
> <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog>
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 1:39 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> wrote:
>
> Later editions often correct typos, may have interesting
> annotations,
> almost always have more modern spelling, may have more
> modern dialog
> punctuation, and may even represent a more complete
> vision of the
> author's work. For Dickens the last point isn't so
> important because he
> wasn't an author that had some long-lost revision
> discovered, but the
> rest certainly are.
>
> On 1/10/22 12:36 PM, James Huang wrote:
> > I chose this scan because it's a relatively clean
> scan of a beautiful
> > edition by Chapman and Hall, the English publisher of
> many of Dickens's
> > works. But, just so I know, why is there a preference
> for scans of later
> > editions?
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 1:02 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
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James Huang

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Jan 16, 2022, 1:46:19 AMJan 16
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I did a bit more digging and would like to switch to the scans of this two-volume edition from 1890:
It uses more modern punctuation and spellings, and includes the passages that Dickens added to chapters 1 and 4 after the novel had been serialized. Since American spellings predominate, would I use "en-US" in the xml:lang attribute? Thanks.


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Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2022, 11:38:21 AMJan 16
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OK good. Yes, you can use en-US. Those additions are in the
transcription, correct?

On 1/16/22 1:45 AM, James Huang wrote:
> I did a bit more digging and would like to switch to the scans of this
> two-volume edition from 1890:
>
> * https://archive.org/details/dickensworks12dick/page/n5
> <https://archive.org/details/dickensworks12dick/page/n5>
> * https://archive.org/details/dickensworks13dick/page/n5
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >         Ok!
> >
> >         On January 13, 2022 2:12:00 PM EST, James Huang
> >         <jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >             Ok to use the below scan of a 1905 edition by Blackie
> & Son?
> >
> > https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog
> <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog>
> >
>  <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog
> <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog>>
> >
> >             On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 1:39 PM Alex Cabal
> >             <al...@standardebooks.org
>  <mailto:standardebooks%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
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> >
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> >                  >
> >                  >      >
> >                  >
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James Huang

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Jan 16, 2022, 12:47:17 PMJan 16
to standar...@googlegroups.com
No, the additions Dickens made to chapters 1 and 4 for the book form of the novel are not in the PG transcription. The PG transcription is only of the novel as it was first published in weekly/monthly installments (i.e., in serial form).

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Alex Cabal

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Jan 16, 2022, 12:52:54 PMJan 16
to standar...@googlegroups.com
OK, so we want those additions then. It shouldn't be hard to find a
transcription of those additions elsewhere, or maybe just get it
yourself from OCR if they're short.
> >      >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >         Ok!
> >      >
> >      >         On January 13, 2022 2:12:00 PM EST, James Huang
> >      >         <jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>
> >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >             Ok to use the below scan of a 1905 edition by
> Blackie
> >     & Son?
> >      >
> >      > https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog
> <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog>
> >     <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog
> <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog>>
> >      >
> >       <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog
> <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog>
> >     <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog
> <https://archive.org/details/oldcuriositysho04dickgoog>>>
> >      >
> >      >             On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 1:39 PM Alex Cabal
> >      >             <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
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James Huang

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Jan 16, 2022, 1:08:44 PMJan 16
to standar...@googlegroups.com
Yes, we definitely want those additions. That's why finding a scan was harder than I thought. Many scans are of reprints of the "first edition" — i.e., the novel as it was first published in serial form.

Anyway, I have an ocr of the text and am doing a word-for-word proof. 


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James Huang

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Jan 26, 2022, 1:29:06 PMJan 26
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I propose the below cover, cropped from this oil on wood painting:


cover_04.jpg

Alex Cabal

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Jan 26, 2022, 1:37:05 PMJan 26
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I'm not certain. I assume the book is set in England. This girl is in
traditional French/Alsace costume which is very distinctive.
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> >      >      >
> >      >      >         Ok!
> >      >      >
> >      >      >         On January 13, 2022 2:12:00 PM EST,
> James Huang
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James Huang

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Jan 26, 2022, 1:42:37 PMJan 26
to standar...@googlegroups.com
Most of the costume has been cropped out in the proposed cover, such that it should be non-descript. Sure, if you look at the source, you'd see the Alsatian schoolgirl costume. But then, we are not putting the source on the cover.

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Alex Cabal

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Jan 26, 2022, 1:48:18 PMJan 26
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I could tell just by looking at it that it's not typical Vicotrian-era
English dress. We don't have to be exact, but continental dress is VERY
different and distinct. She looks like
https://bilingualkidspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Fun-French-Cartoons-for-Kids-816x531.jpg
which is French cartoon.

On 1/26/22 12:41 PM, James Huang wrote:
> Most of the costume has been cropped out in the proposed cover, such
> that it should be non-descript. Sure, if you look at the source, you'd
> see the Alsatian schoolgirl costume. But then, we are not putting the
> source on the cover.
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:37 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> I'm not certain. I assume the book is set in England. This girl is in
> traditional French/Alsace costume which is very distinctive.
>
> On 1/26/22 12:29 PM, James Huang wrote:
> > I propose the below cover, cropped from this oil on wood painting:
> >
> > https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html
> <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html>
> > <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html
> <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html>>
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 1:08 PM James Huang <jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> > <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >     Yes, we definitely want those additions. That's why finding a
> scan
> >     was harder than I thought. Many scans are of reprints of the
> "first
> >     edition" — i.e., the novel as it was first published in
> serial form.
> >
> >     Anyway, I have an ocr of the text and am doing a
> word-for-word proof.
> >
> >
> >     On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 12:52 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> >     <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >         OK, so we want those additions then. It shouldn't be hard
> to find a
> >         transcription of those additions elsewhere, or maybe just
> get it
> >         yourself from OCR if they're short.
> >
> >         On 1/16/22 12:46 PM, James Huang wrote:
> >          > No, the additions Dickens made to chapters 1 and 4 for the
> >         book form of
> >          > the novel are not in the PG transcription. The PG
> >         transcription is only
> >          > of the novel as it was first published in weekly/monthly
> >         installments
> >          > (i.e., in serial form).
> >          >
> >          > On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 11:38 AM Alex Cabal
> >         <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >          >      >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> >         <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> >         <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>>
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> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>
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James Huang

unread,
Jan 26, 2022, 2:14:57 PMJan 26
to standar...@googlegroups.com
Here are 3 covers from other publishers. The 1st one is reminiscent of a French schoolgirl. The 2nd is rustic from some unknown region that I'm not sure is even English. The 3rd is almost Mediterranean in feel. Do they necessarily scream Victorian era? I don't think so.

I think it's more important to capture the spirit of the novel's heroine, Little Nell, within reasonable limits. Given SE's constraints as to oil paintings, public domain as to both work and reproduction, etc., I think being too literal in the choice of covers makes the task of finding an appropriate one that much more onerous.

9780679443735.jpg
9780199538232 (Custom).jpg
old-curiosity-shop-large (Custom).jpg

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Alex Cabal

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Jan 26, 2022, 2:18:08 PMJan 26
to standar...@googlegroups.com
Well, just cuz some other publisher made a strange choice doesn't mean
*we* have to. Surely there are other paintings of little girls out there
that look more period and location appropriate. This cannot be the only
one. There's plenty of wiggle room when searching for cover art, but
this suggestion is outside of that wiggle room--we may as well use a
painting of a little girl in a Bavarian outfit, if all little girl
paintings are the same.

On 1/26/22 1:14 PM, James Huang wrote:
> Here are 3 covers from other publishers. The 1st one is reminiscent of a
> French schoolgirl. The 2nd is rustic from some unknown region that I'm
> not sure is even English. The 3rd is almost Mediterranean in feel. Do
> they necessarily scream Victorian era? I don't think so.
>
> I think it's more important to capture the spirit of the novel's
> heroine, Little Nell, within reasonable limits. Given SE's constraints
> as to oil paintings, public domain as to both work and reproduction,
> etc., I think being too literal in the choice of covers makes the task
> of finding an appropriate one that much more onerous.
>
> 9780679443735.jpg
> 9780199538232 (Custom).jpg
> old-curiosity-shop-large (Custom).jpg
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:48 PM Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>> wrote:
>
> I could tell just by looking at it that it's not typical Vicotrian-era
> English dress. We don't have to be exact, but continental dress is VERY
> different and distinct. She looks like
> https://bilingualkidspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Fun-French-Cartoons-for-Kids-816x531.jpg
> <https://bilingualkidspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Fun-French-Cartoons-for-Kids-816x531.jpg>
>
> which is French cartoon.
>
> On 1/26/22 12:41 PM, James Huang wrote:
> > Most of the costume has been cropped out in the proposed cover, such
> > that it should be non-descript. Sure, if you look at the source,
> you'd
> > see the Alsatian schoolgirl costume. But then, we are not putting
> the
> > source on the cover.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 1:37 PM Alex Cabal
> <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> > <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>> wrote:
> >
> >     I'm not certain. I assume the book is set in England. This
> girl is in
> >     traditional French/Alsace costume which is very distinctive.
> >
> >     On 1/26/22 12:29 PM, James Huang wrote:
> >      > I propose the below cover, cropped from this oil on wood
> painting:
> >      >
> >      > https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html
> <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html>
> >     <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html
> <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html>>
> >      > <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html
> <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html>
> >     <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html
> <https://www.nga.gov/collection/art-object-page.46507.html>>>
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 1:08 PM James Huang
> <jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>
> >      > <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     Yes, we definitely want those additions. That's why
> finding a
> >     scan
> >      >     was harder than I thought. Many scans are of reprints
> of the
> >     "first
> >      >     edition" — i.e., the novel as it was first published in
> >     serial form.
> >      >
> >      >     Anyway, I have an ocr of the text and am doing a
> >     word-for-word proof.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >     On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 12:52 PM Alex Cabal
> >     <al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>
> <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org <mailto:al...@standardebooks.org>>
> >      >          >      >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>
> >      >         <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>>
> >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>
> >      >         <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>>>
> >      >          >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
> >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>>
> >      >         <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com
> <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>>
> >     <mailto:jash...@gmail.com <mailto:jash...@gmail.com>
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>  <mailto:standardebooks%25252525252...@googlegroups.com
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> >      >
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> >      >          >      >
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