[Project Proposal] Poetry by Henry van Dyke

[Charlie Bowman]

I've been reading a lot of poetry with my daughter at bedtime, so I'd like to do a poetry project next. I'm a fan of van Dyke, and his corpus doesn't look too intimidating (about 70k words.)

Henry van Dyke Poetry Omnibus Spreadsheet

Primary omnibus transcription at PG

Out of the 233 PD works I've found so far, 214 are in the PG omnibus, and I've managed to find transcriptions of the rest elsewhere.

Cover art idea: "Among the Sierra Nevada, California" (1868) by Albert Bierstadt (CC0 at the Smithsonian)

Many of his poems deal with creation, natural revelation, and experiencing God through nature:

"Thou who hast made thy dwelling fair

      With flowers below, above with starry lights

    And set thine altars everywhere,--

            On mountain heights,

    In woodlands dim with many a dream,

            In valleys bright with springs,

  And on the curving capes of every stream:

  Thou who hast taken to thyself the wings

            Of morning, to abide”

[Alex Cabal]

Great work. I've copied the spreadsheet and made you an editor:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q

Please update the spreadsheet copy only from now on.

Send a link to your repo and we can start the project. Thanks!

On 10/14/25 3:42 PM, Charlie Bowman wrote:
> I've been reading a lot of poetry with my daughter at bedtime, so I'd
> like to do a poetry project next. I'm a fan of van Dyke, and his corpus
> doesn't look too intimidating (about 70k words.)
>
>

> Henry van Dyke Poetry Omnibus Spreadsheet <https://docs.google.com/
> spreadsheets/d/1H698ZHdTo7IDpT7VCxURUPZ0Zx3P9RQmWqX8r6EbdZA/edit?
> usp=sharing>
>
> Primary omnibus transcription at PG <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229>

>
>
> Out of the 233 PD works I've found so far, 214 are in the PG omnibus,
> and I've managed to find transcriptions of the rest elsewhere.
>
>
> Cover art idea:"Among the Sierra Nevada, California" (1868) by Albert

> Bierstadt <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-sierra-nevada-
> california-2059>(CC0 at the Smithsonian)

>
> Many of his poems deal with creation, natural revelation, and
> experiencing God through nature:
>
>
> "Thou who hast made thy dwelling fair
>
>       With flowers below, above with starry lights
>
>     And set thine altars everywhere,--
>
>             On mountain heights,
>
>     In woodlands dim with many a dream,
>
>             In valleys bright with springs,
>
>   And on the curving capes of every stream:
>
>   Thou who hast taken to thyself the wings
>
>             Of morning, to abide”
>
>

> image.png
>
>
> --
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> standardebooks/CAC-
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> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[ʗharlie ßowman]

Github Repo for "Poetry - Henry van Dyke" 

[Alex Cabal]

Note that there's a Jr in his name. You don't have to rename the repo,
just make sure you got the metadata and title/cover correct.

Weijia will manage this with Vince reviewing.



On 10/14/25 9:04 PM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> Github Repo for "Poetry - Henry van Dyke" <https://github.com/cbbowman/
> henry-van-dyke_poetry>

>
> On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 5:31:28 PM UTC-4 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> Great work. I've copied the spreadsheet and made you an editor:
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/

> d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q <https://
> docs.google.com/spreadsheets/
> d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q>

>
> Please update the spreadsheet copy only from now on.
>
> Send a link to your repo and we can start the project. Thanks!
>
> On 10/14/25 3:42 PM, Charlie Bowman wrote:
> > I've been reading a lot of poetry with my daughter at bedtime, so
> I'd
> > like to do a poetry project next. I'm a fan of van Dyke, and his
> corpus
> > doesn't look too intimidating (about 70k words.)
> >
> >
> > Henry van Dyke Poetry Omnibus Spreadsheet <https://

> docs.google.com/ <https://docs.google.com/>

> > spreadsheets/d/1H698ZHdTo7IDpT7VCxURUPZ0Zx3P9RQmWqX8r6EbdZA/edit?
> > usp=sharing>
> >
> > Primary omnibus transcription at PG <https://www.gutenberg.org/

> ebooks/16229 <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229>>

> >
> >
> > Out of the 233 PD works I've found so far, 214 are in the PG
> omnibus,
> > and I've managed to find transcriptions of the rest elsewhere.
> >
> >
> > Cover art idea:"Among the Sierra Nevada, California" (1868) by
> Albert
> > Bierstadt <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-sierra-

> nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-sierra-nevada->

> > california-2059>(CC0 at the Smithsonian)
> >
> > Many of his poems deal with creation, natural revelation, and
> > experiencing God through nature:
> >
> >
> > "Thou who hast made thy dwelling fair
> >
> >       With flowers below, above with starry lights
> >
> >     And set thine altars everywhere,--
> >
> >             On mountain heights,
> >
> >     In woodlands dim with many a dream,
> >
> >             In valleys bright with springs,
> >
> >   And on the curving capes of every stream:
> >
> >   Thou who hast taken to thyself the wings
> >
> >             Of morning, to abide”
> >
> >
> > image.png
> >
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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> > To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>
> > standardebooks/CAC-
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com
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> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>?
> > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>
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> b920-ba1baa48fad6n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[ʗharlie ßowman]

Sounds good.

[Weijia Cheng]

Ok, noted.

[ʗharlie ßowman]

I found another painting that I like for this project, linked more to the patriotic religious nature of his poetry.

"Embarkation of the Pilgrims" by Robert W. Weir (1844) at the Smithsonian

[ʗharlie ßowman]

Would it be appropriate to include "The house of Rimmon; a drama in four acts"? It is a short drama (15k words) with all of the dialogue is in poetic form. It was included in the PG omnibus I am using, but I had originally excluded it from my list based on its title.

IA scan
PG transciption

[Alex Cabal]

Did he write any other plays?

On 10/15/25 1:16 PM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> Would it be appropriate to include "The house of Rimmon; a drama in four
> acts"? It is a short drama (15k words) with all of the dialogue is in
> poetic form. It was included in the PG omnibus I am using, but I had
> originally excluded it from my list based on its title.
>

> IA scan <https://archive.org/details/houseofrimmondra00vand>
> PG transciption <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/17944>

>
> On Wednesday, October 15, 2025 at 12:51:24 PM UTC-4 ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
>
> I found another painting that I like for this project, linked more
> to the patriotic religious nature of his poetry.
> "Embarkation of the Pilgrims" by Robert W. Weir (1844) at the

> Smithsonian <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/embarkation-
> pilgrims-1752>

> cover.jpg
> On Wednesday, October 15, 2025 at 6:58:21 AM UTC-4 weij...@bu.edu wrote:
>
> Ok, noted.
>
> On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 10:56:19 PM UTC-4
> c.b.b...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Sounds good.
>
> On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 10:55:14 PM UTC-4 Alex Cabal
> wrote:
>
> Note that there's a Jr in his name. You don't have to
> rename the repo,
> just make sure you got the metadata and title/cover
> correct.
>
> Weijia will manage this with Vince reviewing.
>
>
>
> On 10/14/25 9:04 PM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> > Github Repo for "Poetry - Henry van Dyke" <https://

> github.com/cbbowman/ <https://github.com/cbbowman/>

> > henry-van-dyke_poetry>
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 5:31:28 PM UTC-4 Alex
> Cabal wrote:
> >
> > Great work. I've copied the spreadsheet and made you
> an editor:

> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <https://
> docs.google.com/spreadsheets/>
> > d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q <https://
> > docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <http://

> docs.google.com/spreadsheets/>
> > d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q>
> >
> > Please update the spreadsheet copy only from now on.
> >
> > Send a link to your repo and we can start the
> project. Thanks!
> >
> > On 10/14/25 3:42 PM, Charlie Bowman wrote:
> > > I've been reading a lot of poetry with my daughter
> at bedtime, so
> > I'd
> > > like to do a poetry project next. I'm a fan of van
> Dyke, and his
> > corpus
> > > doesn't look too intimidating (about 70k words.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Henry van Dyke Poetry Omnibus Spreadsheet <https://

> > docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/> <https://

> docs.google.com/ <https://docs.google.com/>>
> > > spreadsheets/
> d/1H698ZHdTo7IDpT7VCxURUPZ0Zx3P9RQmWqX8r6EbdZA/edit?
> > > usp=sharing>
> > >
> > > Primary omnibus transcription at PG <https://

> www.gutenberg.org/ <https://www.gutenberg.org/>

> > ebooks/16229 <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229>>>
> > >
> > >
> > > Out of the 233 PD works I've found so far, 214 are
> in the PG
> > omnibus,
> > > and I've managed to find transcriptions of the rest
> elsewhere.
> > >
> > >
> > > Cover art idea:"Among the Sierra Nevada,
> California" (1868) by
> > Albert
> > > Bierstadt <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/

> among-sierra- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-
> sierra->
> > nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-
> sierra-nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/

> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/>>
> > > standardebooks/CAC-
> > >
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>
> > <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>
> > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
> CAC- <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
> CAC-> <https://
> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC-
> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC->>
> > >
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>
> > <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>?

> > > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed
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> msgid/>
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> utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[ʗharlie ßowman]

I haven't found any evidence of him writing any other plays or dramas.

[Alex Cabal]

Let's do it separately. It's clearly a blank verse drama and not poetry
per se

On 10/15/25 1:34 PM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> I haven't found any evidence of him writing any other plays or dramas.
>
> On Wednesday, October 15, 2025 at 2:26:49 PM UTC-4 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> Did he write any other plays?
>
> On 10/15/25 1:16 PM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> > Would it be appropriate to include "The house of Rimmon; a drama
> in four
> > acts"? It is a short drama (15k words) with all of the dialogue
> is in
> > poetic form. It was included in the PG omnibus I am using, but I had
> > originally excluded it from my list based on its title.
> >
> > IA scan <https://archive.org/details/houseofrimmondra00vand
> <https://archive.org/details/houseofrimmondra00vand>>

> > PG transciption <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/17944 <https://

> > github.com/cbbowman/ <http://github.com/cbbowman/> <https://

> github.com/cbbowman/ <https://github.com/cbbowman/>>
> > > henry-van-dyke_poetry>
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 5:31:28 PM UTC-4 Alex
> > Cabal wrote:
> > >
> > > Great work. I've copied the spreadsheet and made you
> > an editor:
> > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <https://docs.google.com/

> spreadsheets/> <https://

> > docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <http://docs.google.com/
> spreadsheets/>>
> > > d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q <https://
> > > docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <http://docs.google.com/

> spreadsheets/> <http://

> > docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <http://docs.google.com/
> spreadsheets/>>
> > > d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q>
> > >
> > > Please update the spreadsheet copy only from now on.
> > >
> > > Send a link to your repo and we can start the
> > project. Thanks!
> > >
> > > On 10/14/25 3:42 PM, Charlie Bowman wrote:
> > > > I've been reading a lot of poetry with my daughter
> > at bedtime, so
> > > I'd
> > > > like to do a poetry project next. I'm a fan of van
> > Dyke, and his
> > > corpus
> > > > doesn't look too intimidating (about 70k words.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Henry van Dyke Poetry Omnibus Spreadsheet <https://

> > > docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/> <http://

> docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/>> <https://
> > docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/> <https://
> docs.google.com/ <https://docs.google.com/>>>
> > > > spreadsheets/
> > d/1H698ZHdTo7IDpT7VCxURUPZ0Zx3P9RQmWqX8r6EbdZA/edit?
> > > > usp=sharing>
> > > >
> > > > Primary omnibus transcription at PG <https://

> > www.gutenberg.org/ <http://www.gutenberg.org/> <https://
> www.gutenberg.org/ <https://www.gutenberg.org/>>
> > > ebooks/16229 <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229 <https://

> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229 <https://
> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229>>>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Out of the 233 PD works I've found so far, 214 are
> > in the PG
> > > omnibus,
> > > > and I've managed to find transcriptions of the rest
> > elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cover art idea:"Among the Sierra Nevada,
> > California" (1868) by
> > > Albert

> > > > Bierstadt <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/ <https://
> americanart.si.edu/artwork/>
> > among-sierra- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-
> <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among->
> > sierra->
> > > nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among- <https://
> americanart.si.edu/artwork/among->
> > sierra-nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/ <https://
> americanart.si.edu/artwork/>

> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>
> <https://groups.google.com/d/ <https://groups.google.com/d/>
> > msgid/>
> > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/
> d/msgid/> <https://
> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>>>

> > > > standardebooks/CAC-
> > > >
> > >
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com> <http://40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>>
> > > <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>

> <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>>
> > > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/>
> > CAC- <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/ <https://
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> > CAC-> <https://
> > > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC- <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC->

> > <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC- <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC->>>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com

> <http://40mail.gmail.com> <http://40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>>
> > > <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>

> <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>>?
> > > > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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[ʗharlie ßowman]

10-4

[Alex Cabal]

That works, I've added it to the DB

On 10/15/25 11:51 AM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> I found another painting that I like for this project, linked more to
> the patriotic religious nature of his poetry.
> "Embarkation of the Pilgrims" by Robert W. Weir (1844) at the

> Smithsonian <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/embarkation-pilgrims-1752>

> cover.jpg
> On Wednesday, October 15, 2025 at 6:58:21 AM UTC-4 weij...@bu.edu wrote:
>
> Ok, noted.
>
> On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 10:56:19 PM UTC-4 c.b.b...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Sounds good.
>
> On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 10:55:14 PM UTC-4 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> Note that there's a Jr in his name. You don't have to rename
> the repo,
> just make sure you got the metadata and title/cover correct.
>
> Weijia will manage this with Vince reviewing.
>
>
>
> On 10/14/25 9:04 PM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> > Github Repo for "Poetry - Henry van Dyke" <https://

> github.com/cbbowman/ <https://github.com/cbbowman/>

> > henry-van-dyke_poetry>
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 5:31:28 PM UTC-4 Alex
> Cabal wrote:
> >
> > Great work. I've copied the spreadsheet and made you an
> editor:

> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <https://
> docs.google.com/spreadsheets/>
> > d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q <https://
> > docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <http://docs.google.com/

> spreadsheets/>
> > d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q>
> >
> > Please update the spreadsheet copy only from now on.
> >
> > Send a link to your repo and we can start the project.
> Thanks!
> >
> > On 10/14/25 3:42 PM, Charlie Bowman wrote:
> > > I've been reading a lot of poetry with my daughter at
> bedtime, so
> > I'd
> > > like to do a poetry project next. I'm a fan of van
> Dyke, and his
> > corpus
> > > doesn't look too intimidating (about 70k words.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Henry van Dyke Poetry Omnibus Spreadsheet <https://

> > docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/> <https://

> docs.google.com/ <https://docs.google.com/>>
> > > spreadsheets/
> d/1H698ZHdTo7IDpT7VCxURUPZ0Zx3P9RQmWqX8r6EbdZA/edit?
> > > usp=sharing>
> > >
> > > Primary omnibus transcription at PG <https://

> www.gutenberg.org/ <https://www.gutenberg.org/>

> > ebooks/16229 <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229
> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229>>>
> > >
> > >
> > > Out of the 233 PD works I've found so far, 214 are in
> the PG
> > omnibus,
> > > and I've managed to find transcriptions of the rest
> elsewhere.
> > >
> > >
> > > Cover art idea:"Among the Sierra Nevada,
> California" (1868) by
> > Albert
> > > Bierstadt <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-

> sierra- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-sierra->
> > nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-sierra-
> nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/among-sierra-

> nevada->>
> > > california-2059>(CC0 at the Smithsonian)
> > >
> > > Many of his poems deal with creation, natural
> revelation, and
> > > experiencing God through nature:
> > >
> > >
> > > "Thou who hast made thy dwelling fair
> > >
> > >       With flowers below, above with starry lights
> > >
> > >     And set thine altars everywhere,--
> > >
> > >             On mountain heights,
> > >
> > >     In woodlands dim with many a dream,
> > >
> > >             In valleys bright with springs,
> > >
> > >   And on the curving capes of every stream:
> > >
> > >   Thou who hast taken to thyself the wings
> > >
> > >             Of morning, to abide”
> > >
> > >
> > > image.png
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the Google
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> > > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.

> > > To view this discussion visit https://

> groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/>
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://
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> > > standardebooks/CAC-
> > >
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>
> > <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>
> > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC-
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC->
> <https://
> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC- <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC->>
> > >
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>
> > <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>?

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> a0b5-658dda9f8c6fn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[ʗharlie ßowman]

First set of questions:

1) These poems have a lot of footers (more than half.) Most of them are dates, but the rest are variety of places, names, purposes, origins, or meters (for songs/hymns.) I currently have them all as footers, matching the style I found for a footer in the Thomas Gray poetry collection. What is the SE way of dealing with these? Remove/keep all or some of them? Convert to endnotes?

Here are a few examples:

2) About 50 of the poems have some form of "subtitle-ish" extra text under the title. A couple of them are obviously subtitles, many are just dates, some are multiple lines, and others drift into prose/exposition territory. I know we have a "bridgehead" category to use, and one or two seem like they might qualify as a bridgehead, but others don't seem to fit the definition of a bridgehead.
That being said, how should I deal with these? 

Right now, they are tagged with my best guess of either bridgehead, subtitle, dedication, or "z3998:introductory-note."

Here are a few representative examples:

I have collected all these extra bits of text into a spreadsheet so I could look at them all at once.

Thanks!

[Weijia Cheng]

1. We can keep the footers.

2. It is hard to give general advice on this situation because all of the headers are so different. You will have to make a call on a case-by-case basis. If there are any specific cases you find especially perplexing, post them to this thread.

[ʗharlie ßowman]

Thats fine. This is how I did a few of the ones I was unsure about:

      <header>
        <h2 epub:type="title">The Signs</h2>
        <p epub:type="dedication">Dedicated to the Zodiac Club</p>
      </header>

      <header>
        <h2 epub:type="title">Hudson's Last Voyage</h2>
        <div epub:type="bridgehead">
          <p>The shallop on Hudson Bay</p>
          <p>June 22, 1611</p>
        </div>
      </header>

      <header>
        <hgroup>
          <h2 epub:type="title">Who Follow the Flag</h2>
          <p epub:type="subtitle">Phi Beta Kappa Ode</p>
        </hgroup>
        <div epub:type="z3998:introductory-note">
          <p>Harvard Univserity</p>
          <p>June 30, 1910</p>
        </div>
      </header>

      <header>
        <h2 epub:type="title">A Shrine in the Pantheon</h2>
        <p epub:type="dedication">For the Unnamed Soliders Who Died in France</p>
        <p epub:type="z3998:introductory-note">Universal approval has been accorded the proposal made in the French Chamber that the      ashes of an unnamed French soldier, fallen for his country, shall be removed with solemn ceremony to the Pantheon. In this way it is      intended to honor by a symbolic ceremony the memory of all who lie in unmarked graves.</p>
      </header>

      <header>
        <h2 epub:type="title">Hymn of Joy</h2>
        <p epub:type="z3998:introductory-note">To the music of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony</p>
      </header>

[Weijia Cheng]

"The Signs":

1. Make sure to still include the quotation marks in the title.
2. I think "dedication" is only supposed to be used on sections. In the past I have used bridgehead for situations like this.

"Hudson's Last Voyage": I would consider "The Shallop on Hudson's Bay" to be a subtitle. The date can be an introductory-note.

"Who Follow the Flag": Looks ok to me, except you have a typo in "University."

"A Shrine in the Pantheon": "For the Unnamed Soliders Who Died in France" should be a subtitle. The following paragraph can be a bridgehead.

"Hymn of Joy": "To the Music of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony" can be a subtitle. (Side note, I've seen this one in hymnals before so it's interesting to see the original source!)

[Devin O'Bannon]

Hello all,

I noticed at the Projects page that I am currently listed as the producer for this work, which I am not, and I'd prefer to make sure cbbowman is properly named.

Thanks,

Devin

[Alex Cabal]

Thanks, must have been a slip of the finger when selecting the producer.

On 11/2/25 9:20 AM, Devin O'Bannon wrote:
> Hello all,
>

> I noticed at the Projects <https://standardebooks.org/projects> page

> that I am currently listed as the producer for this work, which I am
> not, and I'd prefer to make sure cbbowman is properly named.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Devin
>
> On Thursday, October 30, 2025 at 3:22:21 PM UTC-5 weij...@bu.edu wrote:
>
> "The Signs":
>

> 1. Make sure to still include the quotation marks in the title.
> 2. I think "dedication" is only supposed to be used on sections. In

> the past I have used bridgehead for situations like this.
>
> "Hudson's Last Voyage": I would consider "The Shallop on Hudson's
> Bay" to be a subtitle. The date can be an introductory-note.
>
> "Who Follow the Flag": Looks ok to me, except you have a typo in
> "University."
>
> "A Shrine in the Pantheon": "For the Unnamed Soliders Who Died in
> France" should be a subtitle. The following paragraph can be a
> bridgehead.
>
> "Hymn of Joy": "To the Music of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony" can be a
> subtitle. (Side note, I've seen this one in hymnals before so it's
> interesting to see the original source!)
>
> On Thursday, October 30, 2025 at 1:36:34 PM UTC-4 c.b.b...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> Thats fine. This is how I did a few of the ones I was unsure about:
>

> subtitle-1.png
>       <header>
>         <h2 epub:type="title">The Signs</h2>
>         <p epub:type="dedication">Dedicated to the Zodiac Club</p>
>       </header>
>

> subtitle-2.png
>       <header>
>         <h2 epub:type="title">Hudson's Last Voyage</h2>
>         <div epub:type="bridgehead">
>           <p>The shallop on Hudson Bay</p>
>           <p>June 22, 1611</p>
>         </div>
>       </header>
>

> subtitle-3.png
>       <header>
>         <hgroup>
>           <h2 epub:type="title">Who Follow the Flag</h2>
>           <p epub:type="subtitle">Phi Beta Kappa Ode</p>
>         </hgroup>
>         <div epub:type="z3998:introductory-note">
>           <p>Harvard Univserity</p>
>           <p>June 30, 1910</p>
>         </div>
>       </header>
>

> subtitle-4.png
>       <header>
>         <h2 epub:type="title">A Shrine in the Pantheon</h2>
>         <p epub:type="dedication">For the Unnamed Soliders Who
> Died in France</p>
>         <p epub:type="z3998:introductory-note">Universal
> approval has been accorded the proposal made in the French
> Chamber that the      ashes of an unnamed French soldier, fallen
> for his country, shall be removed with solemn ceremony to the
> Pantheon. In this way it is      intended to honor by a symbolic
> ceremony the memory of all who lie in unmarked graves.</p>
>       </header>
>

> subtitle-6.png
>       <header>
>         <h2 epub:type="title">Hymn of Joy</h2>
>         <p epub:type="z3998:introductory-note">To the music of
> Beethoven's Ninth Symphony</p>
>       </header>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, October 30, 2025 at 1:17:58 PM UTC-4 weij...@bu.edu
> wrote:
>
> 1. We can keep the footers.
> 2. It is hard to give general advice on this situation
> because all of the headers are so different. You will have
> to make a call on a case-by-case basis. If there are any
> specific cases you find especially perplexing, post them to
> this thread.
>
> On Thursday, October 30, 2025 at 12:58:30 PM UTC-4
> c.b.b...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> First set of questions:
>
> 1) These poems have a lot of footers (more than half.)
> Most of them are dates, but the rest are variety of
> places, names, purposes, origins, or meters (for songs/
> hymns.) I currently have them all as footers, matching
> the style I found for a footer in the Thomas Gray poetry

> collection <https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/thomas-
> gray/poetry>. What is the SE way of dealing with these?

> Remove/keep all or some of them? Convert to endnotes?
> Here are a few examples:
>

> footer-1.pngfooter-2.pngfooter-3.pngfooter-4.pngfooter-5.png

>
> 2) About 50 of the poems have some form of "subtitle-
> ish" extra text under the title. A couple of them are
> obviously subtitles, many are just dates, some are
> multiple lines, and others drift into prose/exposition
> territory. I know we have a "bridgehead" category to
> use, and one or two seem like they might qualify as a
> bridgehead, but others don't seem to fit the definition
> of a bridgehead.
> That being said, how should I deal with these?
> Right now, they are tagged with my best guess of either
> bridgehead, subtitle, dedication, or
> "z3998:introductory-note."
> Here are a few representative examples:
>

> subtitle-1.pngsubtitle-2.pngsubtitle-3.pngsubtitle-4.pngsubtitle-5.pngsubtitle-6.png

>
> I have collected all these extra bits of text into a

> spreadsheet <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/
> d/14S9T_laiYMBpV9JyBWXE5gY9e0RJXRQjwfOcdCnVzYk/edit?
> usp=sharing> so I could look at them all at once.

>
> Thanks!
>
> On Friday, October 17, 2025 at 2:02:12 PM UTC-4 Alex
> Cabal wrote:
>
> That works, I've added it to the DB
>
> On 10/15/25 11:51 AM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> > I found another painting that I like for this
> project, linked more to
> > the patriotic religious nature of his poetry.
> > "Embarkation of the Pilgrims" by Robert W. Weir
> (1844) at the
> > Smithsonian <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/

> embarkation-pilgrims-1752 <https://

> americanart.si.edu/artwork/embarkation-pilgrims-1752>>
> > cover.jpg
> > On Wednesday, October 15, 2025 at 6:58:21 AM
> UTC-4 weij...@bu.edu wrote:
> >
> > Ok, noted.
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 10:56:19 PM UTC-4
> c.b.b...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> >
> > Sounds good.
> >
> > On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 10:55:14 PM UTC-4
> Alex Cabal wrote:
> >
> > Note that there's a Jr in his name. You don't
> have to rename
> > the repo,
> > just make sure you got the metadata and title/
> cover correct.
> >
> > Weijia will manage this with Vince reviewing.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/14/25 9:04 PM, ʗharlie ßowman wrote:
> > > Github Repo for "Poetry - Henry van Dyke"
> <https://

> > github.com/cbbowman/ <http://github.com/cbbowman/

> > <https://github.com/cbbowman/ <https://
> github.com/cbbowman/>>
> > > henry-van-dyke_poetry>
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, October 14, 2025 at 5:31:28 PM
> UTC-4 Alex
> > Cabal wrote:
> > >
> > > Great work. I've copied the spreadsheet and
> made you an
> > editor:
> > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <https://

> docs.google.com/spreadsheets/> <https://

> > docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <http://
> docs.google.com/spreadsheets/>>
> > > d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q
> <https://
> > > docs.google.com/spreadsheets/ <http://

> docs.google.com/spreadsheets/> <http://
> docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/>

> > spreadsheets/>
> > > d/1iPw0cfk2l9uZ9D21CiHHc1fSpc2bkjqShvJ--U9Yx5Q>
> > >
> > > Please update the spreadsheet copy only from
> now on.
> > >
> > > Send a link to your repo and we can start the
> project.
> > Thanks!
> > >
> > > On 10/14/25 3:42 PM, Charlie Bowman wrote:
> > > > I've been reading a lot of poetry with my
> daughter at
> > bedtime, so
> > > I'd
> > > > like to do a poetry project next. I'm a fan
> of van
> > Dyke, and his
> > > corpus
> > > > doesn't look too intimidating (about 70k words.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Henry van Dyke Poetry Omnibus Spreadsheet
> <https://
> > > docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/>

> <http://docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/>>
> <https://
> > docs.google.com/ <http://docs.google.com/>
> <https://docs.google.com/ <https://docs.google.com/>>>

> > > > spreadsheets/
> > d/1H698ZHdTo7IDpT7VCxURUPZ0Zx3P9RQmWqX8r6EbdZA/edit?
> > > > usp=sharing>
> > > >
> > > > Primary omnibus transcription at PG <https://

> > www.gutenberg.org/ <http://www.gutenberg.org/>

> <https://www.gutenberg.org/ <https://
> www.gutenberg.org/>>

> > > ebooks/16229 <https://www.gutenberg.org/
> ebooks/16229 <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229>
> > <https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229 <https://

> www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/16229>>>>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Out of the 233 PD works I've found so far,
> 214 are in
> > the PG
> > > omnibus,
> > > > and I've managed to find transcriptions of
> the rest
> > elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Cover art idea:"Among the Sierra Nevada,
> > California" (1868) by
> > > Albert
> > > > Bierstadt <https://americanart.si.edu/

> artwork/among- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/
> among->
> > sierra- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/
> among-sierra- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/
> among-sierra->>
> > > nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/
> among-sierra- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/
> among-sierra->
> > nevada- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/
> among-sierra- <https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/
> among-sierra->

> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <http://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/> <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/>>

> > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <https://
> groups.google.com/d/msgid/> <https://

> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/ <http://

> groups.google.com/d/msgid/>>>
> > > > standardebooks/CAC-
> > > >
> > >
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com> <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>
> > > <http://40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com> <http://40mail.gmail.com

> <http://40mail.gmail.com>>>
> > > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> standardebooks/CAC- <https://groups.google.com/d/
> msgid/standardebooks/CAC->
> > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/
> standardebooks/CAC- <https://groups.google.com/d/

> msgid/standardebooks/CAC->>
> > <https://
> > > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC-
> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/

> CAC-> <http://
> > groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/CAC-
> <http://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/
> CAC->>>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> %3DhxHOVRHEGPp6OHAopCGtvHL14_qYrxW_7Z0%2B7ee-40TcTA%40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com> <http://40mail.gmail.com <http://40mail.gmail.com>>
> > > <http://40mail.gmail.com

> <http://40mail.gmail.com> <http://40mail.gmail.com
> <http://40mail.gmail.com>>>?
> > > > utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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[ʗharlie ßowman]

So one poem has a sort of "signature."



I currently have it formatted like this:

        <span>On far-off fields, by elm and oak,</span>
        <br/>
        <span>I see the lights, I smell the smoke—</span>
        <br/>
        <span class="i1">The Camp-fires of the Past are burning.</span>
      </p>  
      <p><span epub:type="z3998:signature">Tertius and Henry van Dyke</span>.</p>
      <footer>
        <p>November, 1903.</p>
      </footer>
    </article>

with this CSS:

/* SeMoS 7.7.4.2 */
footer{
  margin-top: 1em;
  text-align: right;
}
 
/* SeMoS 7.7.4.4 */
[epub|type~="z3998:signature"]{
  font-variant: small-caps;
}

/* Footers */
/* Style copied from Thomas Gray Poetry */
/* https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/thomas-gray/poetry */
[epub|type~="z3998:poem"] footer p,
[epub|type~="z3998:song"] footer p,
[epub|type~="z3998:hymn"] footer p{
  font-style: italic;
  margin-right: 1em;
  margin-top: 1em;
  text-align: right;
}

Should the signature be inside the footer tag?

[Weijia Cheng]

Yes, put the signature inside the footer.

[Sean Perkins]

The scan has a comma after the word "smoke" in the line:

<span>I see the lights, I smell the smoke—</span>

[Vince]

Which typogrify removed, as it is supposed to.

[ʗharlie ßowman]

Thanks for your help, Weijia.
I think this is ready for a review.
https://github.com/cbbowman/henry-van-dyke_poetry

[Vince]

OK, I’ll try to get to it this weekend.

[ʗharlie ßowman]

Vince, I've pushed the changes you requested.

[Vince]

A question, Alex. In a couple (few?) places, italics are used to differentiate voices in a poem. For example:

[Alex Cabal]

I think you can just target that with CSS.

Isolated indents don't have to be matched exactly. That only makes sense
when there are various levels of indents in close proximity.

On 11/8/25 5:11 PM, Vince wrote:
> A question, Alex. In a couple (few?) places, italics are used to differentiate voices in a poem. For example:
>
>
>
>

> The first stanza is the poet speaking, the second is the Lord responding. Should <q> be used on each of the three lines to indicate they’re quotes , or should CSS be used to target the second stanza? I guess a third alternative is to put an opening <q> at the start of the first span and a </q> at the end of the last span, but that seems a bit unwieldy.
>
> Also, how closely do we want indentation to match the scans? For example, if something is clearly an i3 in the scans and only i1 in the text, is that OK, or do we prefer to match the scans more closely?
>

[Weijia Cheng]

FWIW, I try to match identation closely in the i1 to i4 range (at that point, I think the difference is visible enough to matter), but once you get above that I think the value of precision diminishes a lot.

[Vince]

Right, ditto. (Although I just had an instance where something was marked i8, and it was really i4, so that was very visible as well.) I’m just trying to determine whether what I do is something I can/should ask a reviewee to do. :)

[ʗharlie ßowman]

Working through the first batch of issues.

In passages where entire stanzas are italicized, but are not using an obviously different "voice," should the italics be removed?

[Vince]

One more, Alex. In the case of stanzas with headers, generally the stanzas are divs and the headers just headers. In the case of stanzas with two line headers, though, the formatting doesn’t necessarily match what would happen with, e.g., an hgroup. The formatting can obviously be adjusted with CSS, I just want to make sure that’s OK. I’ve never done a poetry collection, so I have no first-hand knowledge, and the corpus is mixed, to say the least.

To use an hgroup would require these be sections, not divs, and that would in turn put the stanzas in the ToC, which seems both unnecessary and at odds with the rest of the poems. Keeping with divs and headers would seem to be more consistent, but I wanted to check with you before going further.

[Alex Cabal]

If the poem is in an <article> then you could put <section>s under that
article. It looks like these are numbered "chapter" style so <section.
would make sense. Then <hgroup> would work fine.

[Emma Sweeney]

Should we put this in the manual?

Emma

[Alex Cabal]

I think it's basic HTML sectioning algorithm. <article>s may have sub
<section>s - nothing new.

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[Vince]

This wasn’t a “how to” question, I know (and explicitly said in my email) sections and hgroup would work. It was a “What is the best way to do it?” question.
As I also said, using sections and hgroup puts those stanzas in the ToC, which seems to me to be not only unnecessary, but also inconsistent with the remaining poems in the collection. Why do that if it can be handled without doing that?

[Alex Cabal]

I don't think we have a mechanism right now to make a title visible in
the text but not appear in the ToC. We should do what is semantically
correct regardless of what might occur in the ToC. You could also just
edit the ToC by hand to remove them. We have a small handful of books in
which for whatever reason the ToC had to be hand-edited based on
`build-toc`'s output.

[Vince]

But we do; using header and p instead of h# makes a header in the text but doesn’t appear in the ToC. This is our normal method of doing it, e.g., for a normal blockquote (say newspaper headline) that has a header.

Example #1:

<blockquote>

<header>

<p>Some Headline</p>

</header>

<p>Text of the blockquote.</p>

⋮

</blockquote>

We even have many instances in the corpus of multiple-line headers, again sometimes representing newspapers, sometimes other things.

Example #2:

<blockquote>

<header>

<p>Main Newspaper Headline</p>

<p>Secondary Newspaper Headline</p>

</header>

<p>Text of the blockquote.</p>

⋮

</blockquote>

In the case of poetry (whether in a prose novel or in a collection), if a poem stanza (or set of stanzas) has a header, the practice seems to be (looking at the corpus) to use a div that uses the first example above as the header, if the header is a single line. And that again works perfectly—header that displays in the text and isn’t in the ToC. (The only difference for poetry in a novel vs in a poetry collection is in that in the former, the article here is a blockquote instead.)

Example #3:

<article epub:type="z3998:poem”>

<h2>Poem header</h2>

<div id=“poem-1”>

<header>

<p>Poem Stanza 1 Title</p>

</header>

⋮

</div>

<div id=“poem-2”>

<header>

<p>Poem Stanza 2 Title</p>

</header>

⋮

</div>

</article>

If a poem stanza has a header with two lines, then the same scheme can be used.

Example #4:

<article epub:type="z3998:poem”>

<h2>Poem header</h2>

<div id=“poem-1”>

<header>

<p>Poem Stanza 1 Title</p>

<p>Poem Stanza 2 Subtitle</p>

</header>

⋮

</div>

<div id=“poem-2”>

<header>

<p>Poem Stanza 2 Title</p>

<p>Poem Stanza 2 Subtitle</p>

</header>

⋮

</div>

</article>

In this example, we have to use CSS to format the header lines.

The other alternative for example #4 is to use sections and an hgroup. But that means:

1. Structuring the text differently for those individual poems (then some poems with stanza headers would use div/header, while others use section/hgroup), and,
2. The stanza titles for the section/hgroup poems appearing in the ToC. (Unless, as you note, it’s hand edited after it’s built.)

My question is why not be consistent throughout and use div/header for example #4 as above, and use CSS to format the multi-line headers. That accomplishes all of the goals—consistency in text structure, no stanza headers in the ToC, no hand-editing of the ToC needed.

A third alternative is to use section/h#/hgroup throughout, regardless of whether the header is one or two-line. But first, that has (almost?) never been done in the existing corpus, and that puts all of the stanza headers in the ToC. Editing a poem collection ToC that has a couple hundred poems in it, with some (perhaps significant) percentage having stanza headers, is a pain, and would have to be done every time the ToC was generated. And if it wasn’t edited, leaving stanza headers in the ToC just needlessly clutters up the ToC and makes it harder to navigate, especially for larger collections.

[Weijia Cheng]

For whatever it's worth, I had to use that pattern a lot in What Is Art?: https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/leo-tolstoy/what-is-art/aylmer-maude/text/appendix#appendix-4

[Alex Cabal]

Well, if you have the answers teed up, then why ask the question? Just
do what you think is best!

What we do in <blockquote>s is irrelevant because <blockquote>s (no
longer) reset the sectioning root. They cannot have <hgroup> or <h#>
because they (no longer) denote a new sub-section; such heading elements
would semantically apply to the closest ancestor <section> or <article>,
which is never what we actually want. That's also why we now have to do
<header role="presentation"> when used as a child of <blockquote>.

On 11/16/25 5:36 PM, Vince wrote:
> But we do; using header and p instead of h# makes a header in the text
> but doesn’t appear in the ToC. This is our normal method of doing it,
> e.g., for a normal blockquote (say newspaper headline) that has a header.

> *Example #1:*

> <blockquote>
> <header>
> <p>Some Headline</p>
> </header>
> <p>Text of the blockquote.</p>
> ⋮
> </blockquote>
>
> We even have many instances in the corpus of multiple-line headers,
> again sometimes representing newspapers, sometimes other things.

> *Example #2:*

> <blockquote>
> <header>
> <p>Main Newspaper Headline</p>
> <p>Secondary Newspaper Headline</p>
> </header>
> <p>Text of the blockquote.</p>
> ⋮
> </blockquote>
>
> In the case of poetry (whether in a prose novel or in a collection), if

> a poem /stanza /(or set of stanzas) has a header, the practice seems to

> be (looking at the corpus) to use a div that uses the first example
> above as the header, if the header is a single line. And that again
> works perfectly—header that displays in the text and isn’t in the ToC.
> (The only difference for poetry in a novel vs in a poetry collection is
> in that in the former, the article here is a blockquote instead.)

> *Example #3:*

> <article epub:type="z3998:poem”>
> <h2>Poem header</h2>
> <div id=“poem-1”>
> <header>
> <p>Poem Stanza 1 Title</p>
> </header>
> ⋮
> </div>
> <div id=“poem-2”>
> <header>
> <p>Poem Stanza 2 Title</p>
> </header>
> ⋮
> </div>
> </article>
>

> If a poem stanza has a header with /two/ lines, then the same scheme /
> can/ be used.
> *Example #4:*

> <article epub:type="z3998:poem”>
> <h2>Poem header</h2>
> <div id=“poem-1”>
> <header>
> <p>Poem Stanza 1 Title</p>
> <p>Poem Stanza 2 Subtitle</p>
> </header>
> ⋮
> </div>
> <div id=“poem-2”>
> <header>
> <p>Poem Stanza 2 Title</p>
> <p>Poem Stanza 2 Subtitle</p>
> </header>
> ⋮
> </div>
> </article>
>
> In this example, we have to use CSS to format the header lines.
>
> The other alternative for example #4 is to use sections and an hgroup.
> But that means:
>

> 1. Structuring the text differently for those individual poems (then

> some poems with stanza headers would use div/header, while others
> use section/hgroup), and,

> 2. The stanza titles for the section/hgroup poems appearing in the ToC.

> (Unless, as you note, it’s hand edited after it’s built.)
>
>
> My question is why not be consistent throughout and use div/header for
> example #4 as above, and use CSS to format the multi-line headers. That
> accomplishes all of the goals—consistency in text structure, no stanza
> headers in the ToC, no hand-editing of the ToC needed.
>
> A third alternative is to use section/h#/hgroup throughout, regardless
> of whether the header is one or two-line. But first, that has (almost?)

> never been done in the existing corpus, and that puts /all/ of the

> stanza headers in the ToC. Editing a poem collection ToC that has a
> couple hundred poems in it, with some (perhaps significant) percentage
> having stanza headers, is a pain, and would have to be done every time
> the ToC was generated. And if it wasn’t edited, leaving stanza headers
> in the ToC just needlessly clutters up the ToC and makes it harder to
> navigate, especially for larger collections.
>
>
>> On Nov 16, 2025, at 2:47 PM, Alex Cabal <al...@standardebooks.org> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think we have a mechanism right now to make a title visible in
>> the text but not appear in the ToC. We should do what is semantically
>> correct regardless of what might occur in the ToC. You could also just
>> edit the ToC by hand to remove them. We have a small handful of books
>> in which for whatever reason the ToC had to be hand-edited based on
>> `build-toc`'s output.
>

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[Vince]

Two reasons: one, what makes sense to me is quite often not your preferred choice :), and two, I don’t mind changing a bunch of things in my own productions if I choose incorrectly, but in a review I don’t want to have someone else make changes that then have to be changed back or changed differently.

Thanks, we shall continue onward as outlined.