[New Project] Civil Government by David Lipscomb

Richard Schneider

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Oct 7, 2020, 9:53:15 AM10/7/20

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Hello! I've been an enthusiastic fan of this project for a while.

I am interested in producing Civil Government by David Lipscomb. Lipscomb was a preacher, educator, and journal editor. He lived through the American Civil War, and was greatly affected by it. In Civil Government, he advocates for a form of Christian political non-involvement similar to Tolstoy, and specifically the American sources he cites in the first part of The Kingdom of God is Within You.

The work is approximately 55K words. It is not on Gutenberg, but IA has it: https://archive.org/details/CivilGovernment/

Thanks!

Alex Cabal

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Oct 7, 2020, 1:53:59 PM10/7/20

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While this is a shorter book I think the formatting is probably too
complex for a first production. Additionally we would need to find
actual page scans; the link you sent is of a transcription.

If you want you can start with something a little simpler in formatting,
and then move on to this one as a 2nd production.

On 10/7/20 8:53 AM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> Hello! I've been an enthusiastic fan of this project for a while.
>

> I am interested in producing /Civil Government/ by David Lipscomb.

> Lipscomb was a preacher, educator, and journal editor. He lived through

> the American Civil War, and was greatly affected by it. In /Civil
> Government/, he advocates for a form of Christian political

> non-involvement similar to Tolstoy, and specifically the American

> sources he cites in the first part of /The Kingdom of God is Within You/.

>
> The work is approximately 55K words. It is not on Gutenberg, but IA has
> it: https://archive.org/details/CivilGovernment/
>
> Thanks!
>

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Weijia Cheng

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Oct 7, 2020, 2:05:59 PM10/7/20

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I was curious about this book and was able to find some scans. https://digitalcommons.acu.edu/crs_books/63/

Hope this helps!

Richard Schneider

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Oct 7, 2020, 2:24:30 PM10/7/20

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Thanks for finding those page scans!

Just to understand, I thought the IA link was to an actual 1913 republication, also being in the public domain, and not just a transcript. Is that not the case, or is it just that the Standard Ebooks project prefers using the original edition?

I'm cautiously confident about being able to handle the formatting in this book (I've used the toolset before for a personal production), but I'm happy to do something else first. Out of curiosity, is there anything that particularly stands out to you as difficult with the formatting?

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Alex Cabal

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Oct 7, 2020, 2:51:39 PM10/7/20

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The IA link looks like a transcription, which is fine. But, we need
actual page scans to compare the transcription against, in order to
correct any errors.

This book is heavy with blockquotes, various kinds of headers and
subsections, notes, and so on. That's a lot to take in when you're
trying to get used to the SE process, tools, and requirements. We
recommend a first production be a work < 90k words and mostly plain
prose, like a fiction novel. Once you have a book under your belt and
you're used to the process, you can move on to more advanced stuff.

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Richard Schneider

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Oct 7, 2020, 2:53:17 PM10/7/20

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OK, thanks! I'll find something else to do for a first project.

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Richard Schneider

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Jun 29, 2022, 11:41:01 AM6/29/22

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Now that I've completed a production, I was hoping to do this. Unlike with Elfland, I've waited until I don't have other projects to distract me, so I expect to provide a much quicker turnaround.

Alex Cabal

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Jun 29, 2022, 5:44:10 PM6/29/22

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I can't find an obvious transcription or page scans after a quick
search. Do you have sources?

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Richard Schneider

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Jun 29, 2022, 7:45:39 PM6/29/22

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The IA has a transcription (and maybe page scans? Above you say it's a transcription, and I'm sure you're right, but I'm confused by the copyright page): https://archive.org/details/CivilGovernment/mode/2up

Weijia above found page scans at https://digitalcommons.acu.edu/crs_books/63/

Alex Cabal

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Jun 29, 2022, 7:59:47 PM6/29/22

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I think that's a random transcription, possibly raw OCR. There are lots
of errors. Without page scans (and absent a reputable source like PG) we
can't confirm what edition it's from, to confirm its PD status. Can you
find page scans?

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Richard Schneider

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Jun 29, 2022, 8:04:25 PM6/29/22

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What about the scans Weijia found? I realized the previous link wasn't a direct link: https://digitalcommons.acu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1062&context=crs_books

Alex Cabal

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Jun 29, 2022, 8:08:04 PM6/29/22

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Ah ok. That works. In that case you can go ahead. But I think will be
pretty difficult and a careful proof against the scans will be required.
I see the scans put blockquotes in small type without margins, so you'll
have to confirm that things like blockquotes and other styles are
carried over.

Please send a link to your repo once you're ready. Thanks!

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Richard Schneider

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Jun 29, 2022, 11:50:41 PM6/29/22

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Great! Here's the repo: https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government

Richard Schneider

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Jun 30, 2022, 9:26:24 PM6/30/22

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I've found my first (minor) discrepancy between the IA text and the page scans, and I'm trying to decide what the general policy should be. In the preface, the IA text says

"While I failed to see then, as I now see, that religion embraced every duty...."

while the page scans have:

"While I failed to see then as I now see, that religion embraced every duty..."

Wikipedia describes that the book was originally published in 1889, and reprinted in 1913. The page scans are from the 1889 edition, and the IA text is the 1913 edition.

Should I prefer the 1889 edition or the 1913 edition?

Two additional things that may be salient:

Wikipedia links to this transcription of the book, which apparently is manually typed and proof-read (to an extent). Should I use that instead of the OCR-ed IA text? I also don't know how copyright/licensing works with transcriptions of PD material in this sort of context; would we need the transcriber's permission, since there's no license given?
I can get a hard copy of the 1913 edition easily (it's available at the library), and can make page scans if it'd be helpful.

Alex Cabal

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Jun 30, 2022, 11:08:24 PM6/30/22

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You should use the latest page scans you can find, because presumably
they're the most "correct".

If I had to guess, I'd say the IA transcription is a copy of the one you
linked to, because of the idiosyncratic way in which the page numbers
are included.

If you want to upload page scans of the 1913 edition to IA and use them
for this ebook, that would be great!

On 6/30/22 8:26 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> I've found my first (minor) discrepancy between the IA text and the page
> scans, and I'm trying to decide what the general policy should be. In
> the preface, the IA text says
>
> "While I failed to see then, as I now see, that religion embraced every
> duty...."
>
> while the page scans have:
>
> "While I failed to see then as I now see, that religion embraced every
> duty..."
>
> Wikipedia describes

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lipscomb#Bibliography> that the

> book was originally published in 1889, and reprinted in 1913. The page
> scans are from the 1889 edition, and the IA text is the 1913 edition.
>
> Should I prefer the 1889 edition or the 1913 edition?
>
> Two additional things that may be salient:
>

> * Wikipedia links to this transcription
> <https://web.archive.org/web/20090410082703/http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/dlipscomb/civgov.html>

> of the book, which apparently is manually typed and proof-read (to
> an extent). Should I use that instead of the OCR-ed IA text? I also
> don't know how copyright/licensing works with transcriptions of PD
> material in this sort of context; would we need the transcriber's
> permission, since there's no license given?

> * I can get a hard copy of the 1913 edition easily (it's available at

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Richard Schneider

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Jun 30, 2022, 11:12:48 PM6/30/22

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In fact, the contributor of the IA entry is the person from the linked page. I missed that the first time.

OK, using and scanning the 1913 edition sounds good to me!

Richard Schneider

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Jul 2, 2022, 7:34:44 PM7/2/22

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OK, I've made rough page scans of the 1913 edition. (I haven't uploaded them yet, and may try to make cleaner scans.)

I have a couple other questions about things in the preface:

In one paragraph he raises hypothetical objections as reported speech, e.g. "But some may say, It is a Christian's duty...". The IA transcription add quotes here ("But some may say, 'It is a Christian's duty...'"), but the original text just has the capitalized "It" and no quotes. Should I keep the original text's (lack of) punctuation here?
In the last paragraph of the preface, he mentions two journals, with one set in small caps and the other plain text. I set both of them in elements following 8.2.11.2; was that the right thing to do?
The last sentence of the third-to-last paragraph reads "So voted for secession to avoid war." Both the 1913 and 1889 editions read the same. The IA transcription adds a word: "So [they] voted for secession to avoid war." Should I do the same, or leave it?
Which of these require [Editorial] commits. As I understand it, 3 obviously does (correcting a supposed printing error). Does changing typography, like 2, or punctuation, like 1, require [Editorial] tagging?

Thanks!

Alex Cabal

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Jul 3, 2022, 12:27:04 AM7/3/22

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On 7/2/22 6:34 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> 1. In one paragraph he raises hypothetical objections as reported

> speech, e.g. "But some may say, It is a Christian's duty...". The IA
> transcription add quotes here ("But some may say, 'It is a
> Christian's duty...'"), but the original text just has the
> capitalized "It" and no quotes. Should I keep the original text's
> (lack of) punctuation here?

I think quotes would add clarity here

> 2. In the last paragraph of the preface, he mentions two journals, with

> one set in small caps and the other plain text. I set both of them
> in elements following
> 8.2.11.2

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.6.4/single-page#8.2.11.2>; was

> that the right thing to do?

Correct

> 3. The last sentence of the third-to-last paragraph reads "So voted for

> secession to avoid war." Both the 1913 and 1889 editions read the
> same. The IA transcription adds a word: "So [they] voted for
> secession to avoid war." Should I do the same, or leave it?

No, let's remove that so that it matches the page scans

> 4. Which of these require [Editorial] commits. As I understand it, 3

> obviously does (correcting a supposed printing error). Does changing
> typography, like 2, or punctuation, like 1, require [Editorial] tagging?

You can make the first one editorial. If you've been following the
recent discussion, the more important point is only committing
individual units of work and not trying to stuff a bunch of unrelated
changes into one commit.

Richard Schneider

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Jul 3, 2022, 6:38:30 PM7/3/22

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1. How should I format this citation? "Josephus B. 1 ch. iiii"? (context)

2. He puts periods at the end of his parenthetical biblical citations, e.g. "(Genesis 1:26.)". Should I keep them there, or remove them?

Alex Cabal

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Jul 3, 2022, 8:36:29 PM7/3/22

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On 7/3/22 5:38 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> 1. How should I format this citation? "Josephus B. 1 ch. iiii"? (context

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L27>)

You can just add <abbr> around any abbreviations. If it's an inline
citation without greater context then <cite> isn't necessary.

> 2. He puts periods at the end of his parenthetical biblical citations,
> e.g. "(Genesis 1:26.)". Should I keep them there, or remove them?

You can remove them

Richard Schneider

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Jul 7, 2022, 11:10:19 PM7/7/22

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OK, so far I've cleaned up and proofread the preface and chapter 1 (of 4). By that, I mean I'm applying proper markup (namely blockquotes, but also lists, cites, etc.), fixing differences between the IA text and the page scans, (which are not uncommon) and reformatting the biblical citations to match 8.17.4. There's more to do (such as removing the period is the parenthetical citations, as discussed above), but I'm focusing on getting a clean text first.

As it is, before proceeding further I wanted to make sure that what I've been doing doesn't require [Editorial] tagging. To me, the biggest question is the reformatting of the biblical citations, but I wasn't sure if that counted as "materially" changing the text, since the reference is ultimately the same. (Of course, I'm happy to fix the repository history if necessary.)

Alex Cabal

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Jul 8, 2022, 6:27:09 PM7/8/22

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If in doubt, you can make it editorial. The more important point is
committing small, distinct units of work, and not committing a bunch of
unrelated changes together into one commit. That way if we change our
mind on the labeling, it's easy to go back and change messages of
commits that are isolated units of work instead of trying to unravel a
commit filled with a bunch of different and unrelated changes.

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Weijia Cheng

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Jul 8, 2022, 9:41:09 PM7/8/22

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For whatever it's worth, I've always put the Bible citations updates into editorial changes. I would count it as altering the original text (not too different from changing spellings).

Richard Schneider

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Jul 8, 2022, 11:32:54 PM7/8/22

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OK, if there's precedent, that makes it easy. I'll break out the Bible citations into editorial changes. Thanks!

Richard Schneider

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Jul 17, 2022, 7:03:36 PM7/17/22

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OK, I've reworked the repo history to break out the biblical citations into editorial changes.

While working on the history, I also undid the addition of quotation marks in the preface (see question 1 in 7/2 post above). That pattern occurs in numerous places, including biblical quotations, so I'm not sure if we should update it (and if we do, it'll need to be an editorial commit anyway).

Alex Cabal

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Jul 17, 2022, 7:50:11 PM7/17/22

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I think we should add quotes for clarity. Especially if the pattern
occurs often and he's quoting things like the Bible wholesale.

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/fb66a1ea-3cb2-48c1-8224-c41a4f1769b5n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
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Richard Schneider

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Jul 17, 2022, 8:13:57 PM7/17/22

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Sorry, I meant quotation marks are left off for reported speech in the biblical quotes themselves, e.g.

>>I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges in whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

That appears to be the King James Version, and accurately reflects its punctuation (and capitalization). Given that, do we add quotation marks here?

Vince

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Jul 17, 2022, 9:37:29 PM7/17/22

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Since they’re in blockquotes already, they don’t need quotemarks unless they’re being read out loud.

Richard Schneider

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Jul 30, 2022, 3:49:29 PM7/30/22

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In the page scans, Caesar is spelled Cæsar, while the transcription I'm using spells it Caesar (and by SEMOS 8.6 we want it as Caesar). Should I change the text to Cæsar (to match the scans) and then change it back to Caesar as an [Editorial] commit, or leave it as is?

Vince

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Jul 30, 2022, 5:06:10 PM7/30/22

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No, in this case the transcription did what we would do anyway, so you can just leave it.

Alex Cabal

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Jul 31, 2022, 8:10:56 PM7/31/22

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No, that's not necessary. If it's like that in the transcription, then
just leave it.

On 7/30/22 2:49 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> In the page scans, Caesar is spelled Cæsar, while the transcription I'm
> using spells it Caesar (and by SEMOS 8.6 we want it as Caesar). Should I
> change the text to Cæsar (to match the scans) and then change it back to
> Caesar as an [Editorial] commit, or leave it as is?
> On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 8:37:29 PM UTC-5 Vince wrote:
>
> Since they’re in blockquotes already, they don’t need quotemarks
> unless they’re being read out loud.
>
>
>> On Jul 17, 2022, at 7:13 PM, Richard Schneider
>> <ric...@schneiderbox.net> wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, I meant quotation marks are left off for reported speech in
>> the biblical quotes themselves, e.g.
>>
>> >>I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all

>> thy cities? and thy judges*in whom thou saidst, Give me a king and
>> princes?*I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my

>> wrath.
>>
>> That appears to be the King James Version, andaccurately reflects
>> its punctuation

>> <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+13%3A9-11&version=KJV>(and

>> capitalization). Given that, do we add quotation marks here?
>> On Sunday, July 17, 2022 at 6:50:11 PM UTC-5 Alex Cabal wrote:
>>
>> I think we should add quotes for clarity. Especially if the
>> pattern
>> occurs often and he's quoting things like the Bible wholesale.
>>
>> On 7/17/22 6:03 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
>> > OK, I've reworked the repo history to break out the biblical
>> citations
>> > into editorial changes.
>> >
>> > While working on the history, I also undid the addition of
>> quotation
>> > marks in the preface (see question 1 in 7/2 post above).
>> That pattern
>> > occurs in numerous places, including biblical quotations, so
>> I'm not
>> > sure if we should update it (and if we do, it'll need to be
>> an editorial
>> > commit anyway).
>

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Richard Schneider

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Oct 30, 2022, 5:27:08 PM10/30/22

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OK, here's a quick update:

I've gone through the IA text and compared it with the 1913 edition page scans. There were more discrepancies than I had anticipated (including even missing lines). As expected, I also had to add a lot of <blockquote> and <cite> tags.
I uploaded the page scans I was using to IA at https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/. They won't win any awards for quality, but they were usable (and the book was in a bit of rough shape).
Now that I've reconciled the text with the 1913 edition, I'm going to do another (quicker) pass for SEMOS/[Editorial] changes. I have a list of things from the first pass, and I know I'll have some questions as I work through them.

Alex Cabal

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Oct 30, 2022, 11:26:07 PM10/30/22

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Thanks for keeping us updated!

On 10/30/22 4:27 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> OK, here's a quick update:
>

> * I've gone through the IA text and compared it with the 1913 edition

> page scans. There were more discrepancies than I had anticipated
> (including even missing lines). As expected, I also had to add a

> /lot/ of <blockquote> and <cite> tags.
> * I uploaded the page scans I was using to IA at

> https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/.
> They won't win any awards for quality, but they were usable (and the
> book was in a bit of rough shape).

> * Now that I've reconciled the text with the 1913 edition, I'm going

> <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+13%3A9-11&version=KJV <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+13%3A9-11&version=KJV>>(and

> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cf29de26-28c9-488a-96f2-47899b363cffn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/cf29de26-28c9-488a-96f2-47899b363cffn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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Richard Schneider

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Nov 6, 2022, 12:10:00 PM11/6/22

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Does SEMOS 8.17.2 apply to inline quotes? For example, with this citation:

The declaration, “Let us build us a city and a tower whose top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth,” <cite>(Genesis 11:4)</cite>, shows the animus and the spirit of the movement

Should I take the Genesis 11:4 citation out of parenthesis and put an em dash in front of it? To me, that doesn't read as well.

Also, from what I can tell, should replace parenthesis with an em dash when it's in a blockquote or otherwise not part of a sentence, for example (also note the two cites):

<blockquote>
“Let us make man in our own image, after our own likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” <cite>(Genesis 1:26.)</cite> “And the Lord God commanded the man.” <cite>(Genesis 2:10.)</cite>

</blockquote>

In this case, my understanding I should change it to:

<blockquote>
“Let us make man in our own image, after our own likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.” <cite>—Genesis 1:26</cite> “And the Lord God commanded the man.” <cite>—Genesis 2:10</cite>
</blockquote>

Is that correct?

Weijia Cheng

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Nov 6, 2022, 12:16:51 PM11/6/22

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I think you should keep the parenthetical citations, that's most natural and lines up with the Chicago Manual of Style on parenthetical citations. I think 8.17.2 is more for when the quote makes up the entire line.

Vince

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Nov 6, 2022, 4:22:40 PM11/6/22

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This is one of those edge cases that are so much fun.

We have a few parenthetical citations in the corpus, and they generally don’t have the leading em-dash, i.e. they look like your “before” Genesis 11:4. This is in spite of the fact that they otherwise look like 8.17.2. That seems odd to me, but we do have precedent.

However, when it’s in a blockquote, then it looks like 8.17.3, i.e. the cite is a separate line within the blockquote. That would seem to be the clear course of action for, as an example, the Gen 3:4–5 quote. One quote, one citation, that citation should be according to 8.17.3.

However, the Gen 1:26/2:10 one is the edge of an edge case, because it’s in a blockquote, but it’s two quotes. Which isn’t standard practice; they would be typically be two blockquotes. So we can keep parenthetical citations in a blockquote, which goes against 8.17.3 (and I didn’t see an example of that in the corpus, but these regexes make for tricky searches, and my xpath isn’t sufficiently keen to use it on stuff like this yet), or we can change the quotes to be two blockquotes, which is an obvious (and perhaps unnecessary) editorial change.

I personally would do the latter (make it two blockquotes, each with a citation per 8.17.3), but I rarely correctly discern what Alex would do. :)

On Nov 6, 2022, at 11:10 AM, Richard Schneider <ric...@schneiderbox.net> wrote:

Does SEMOS 8.17.2 apply to inline quotes? For example, with this citation:

The declaration, “Let us build us a city and a tower whose top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth,” <cite>(Genesis 11:4)</cite>, shows the animus and the spirit of the movement

Should I take the Genesis 11:4 citation out of parenthesis and put an em dash in front of it? To me, that doesn't read as well.

Also, from what I can tell, should replace parenthesis with an em dash when it's in a blockquote or otherwise not part of a sentence, for example(also note the two cites):

Richard Schneider

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Nov 13, 2022, 12:03:48 PM11/13/22

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Complicating this is the fact that block quotes make up a large part of the text, and they vary in style. Very often citations are in the prose preceding the block, sometimes there are multiple quotes in a single block (as above, or sometimes without citations), and occasionally there are only abbreviated citations (e.g. "(ch. 2:35)") or no citations at all. In general, he seems pretty free with his block quote style.

I'm tempted to keep the parenthetical style in the block quotes. Aside from the block quotes, parenthetical citations are so common in the text that I worry it would be distracting for the citation style to bounce back and forth so frequently. But of course I'll defer to what Alex and you experienced producers recommend.

Weijia Cheng

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Nov 13, 2022, 12:16:00 PM11/13/22

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I think you could just keep the printed style with the parenthetical citations for now, since it seems generally natural to me and falls under the Chicago Manual of Style's guidelines on parenthetical citations. I don't think every instance of blockquote/cite needs to look like 8.17.3. Here's an example of an exception that Alex approved of, which I think can be relevant here too. Because so much of the book consists of block quotes, like you have said, I think it makes sense to avoid making any sweeping changes to the text for now, and let the final reviewer take a look at the book as a whole to see if there really is a need for a large-scale change like that.

Richard Schneider

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Feb 7, 2023, 2:33:37 PM2/7/23

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I haven't fully settled on it, but right now I'm thinking to use http://hdl.handle.net/10934/RM0001.COLLECT.9416 as the cover image. In absence of finding something else, does that work?

Alex Cabal

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Feb 7, 2023, 2:40:45 PM2/7/23

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That would work, though I think there's an opportunity to find a some
kind of government-style building... some neoclassical architecture,
that kind of thing.

On 2/7/23 1:33 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> I haven't fully settled on it, but right now I'm thinking to use
> http://hdl.handle.net/10934/RM0001.COLLECT.9416 as the cover image. In
> absence of finding something else, does that work?
>
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 11:16:00 AM UTC-6 weijia...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I think you could just keep the printed style with the parenthetical
> citations for now, since it seems generally natural to me and falls
> under the Chicago Manual of Style's guidelines on parenthetical

> citations. I don't think /every/ instance of blockquote/cite needs

> to look like 8.17.3. Here's an example of an exception that Alex
> approved of, which I think can be relevant here too.

> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/HbetK99z3a4/m/39vZSkjjAAAJ> Because so much of the book consists of block quotes, like you have said, I think it makes sense to avoid making any sweeping changes to the text for now, and let the final reviewer take a look at the book as a whole to see if there really is a need for a large-scale change like that.

>> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L28>:

>>
>> The declaration, “Let us build us a city and a tower whose
>> top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name, lest
>> we be scattered abroad upon the face of the
>> earth,”<cite>(Genesis 11:4)</cite>, shows the animus and
>> the spirit of the movement
>>
>> Should I take the Genesis 11:4 citation out of parenthesis
>> and put an em dash in front of it? To me, that doesn't
>> read as well.
>>

>> Also, from what I can tell,/should/replace parenthesis

>> with an em dash when it's in a blockquote or otherwise not
>> part of a sentence,for example

>> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L16>(also note the two cites):

>>
>> <blockquote>
>> “Let us make man in our own image, after our own
>> likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the
>> sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle,
>> and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that
>> creepeth upon the earth.”<cite>(Genesis 1:26.)</cite>“And
>> the Lord God commanded the man.”<cite>(Genesis
>> 2:10.)</cite>
>> </blockquote>
>>
>> In this case, my understanding I should change it to:
>>
>> <blockquote>
>> “Let us make man in our own image, after our own
>> likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the
>> sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle,
>> and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that
>> creepeth upon the earth.” <cite>—Genesis 1:26</cite> “And
>> the Lord God commanded the man.” <cite>—Genesis
>> 2:10</cite>
>> </blockquote>
>

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Richard Schneider

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Feb 9, 2023, 5:55:42 PM2/9/23

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I'd love to find one of the more classic representations of the Tower of Babel (he builds his early argument around it), but I haven't gone through the work of finding PD proof. I also might recall one being used for a different book.

My <cite> blocks around his biblical references in blockquotes (example) are generating lots of linter errors:

│ s-054 │ Manual Review │ chapter-1.xhtml │ <cite> as child of in <blockquote>. <cite> should be the direct child of <blockquote>.

As discussed above, these citations are often embedded in the text of the paragraph, perhaps with other citations in a single paragraph and blockquote.

Should I ignore the warnings, remove the <cite> tags, or something else?

Alex Cabal

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Feb 9, 2023, 10:26:12 PM2/9/23

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Think of <cite> elements in terms of their meaning. What do they apply
to? Usually they apply to whatever their container element is. So what
does it mean for a single to have two <cite>s?

If you have two quotations, they should be in separate <blockquotes>,
with their own <cite>. Otherwise, <cite> is meaningless.

On 2/9/23 4:55 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> I'd love to find one of the more classic representations of the Tower of
> Babel (he builds his early argument around it), but I haven't gone
> through the work of finding PD proof. I also might recall one being used
> for a different book.
>
> My <cite> blocks around his biblical references in blockquotes (example

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L17>) are generating lots of linter errors:

>
> │ s-054 │ Manual Review │ chapter-1.xhtml │ <cite> as child of in
> <blockquote>. <cite> should be the direct child of <blockquote>.
>
> As discussed above, these citations are often embedded in the text of
> the paragraph, perhaps with other citations in a single paragraph and
> blockquote.
>
> Should I ignore the warnings, remove the <cite> tags, or something else?
>
> On Tuesday, February 7, 2023 at 1:40:45 PM UTC-6 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> That would work, though I think there's an opportunity to find a some
> kind of government-style building... some neoclassical architecture,
> that kind of thing.
>
>
> On 2/7/23 1:33 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> > I haven't fully settled on it, but right now I'm thinking to use
> > http://hdl.handle.net/10934/RM0001.COLLECT.9416
> <http://hdl.handle.net/10934/RM0001.COLLECT.9416> as the cover
> image. In
> > absence of finding something else, does that work?
> >
> > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 11:16:00 AM UTC-6
> weijia...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I think you could just keep the printed style with the parenthetical
> > citations for now, since it seems generally natural to me and falls
> > under the Chicago Manual of Style's guidelines on parenthetical
> > citations. I don't think /every/ instance of blockquote/cite needs
> > to look like 8.17.3. Here's an example of an exception that Alex
> > approved of, which I think can be relevant here too.
> >

> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/HbetK99z3a4/m/39vZSkjjAAAJ <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/HbetK99z3a4/m/39vZSkjjAAAJ>> Because so much of the book consists of block quotes, like you have said, I think it makes sense to avoid making any sweeping changes to the text for now, and let the final reviewer take a look at the book as a whole to see if there really is a need for a large-scale change like that.

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L28 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L28>>:

> >>
> >> The declaration, “Let us build us a city and a tower whose
> >> top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name, lest
> >> we be scattered abroad upon the face of the
> >> earth,”<cite>(Genesis 11:4)</cite>, shows the animus and
> >> the spirit of the movement
> >>
> >> Should I take the Genesis 11:4 citation out of parenthesis
> >> and put an em dash in front of it? To me, that doesn't
> >> read as well.
> >>
> >> Also, from what I can tell,/should/replace parenthesis
> >> with an em dash when it's in a blockquote or otherwise not
> >> part of a sentence,for example
> >>

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L16 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L16>>(also note the two cites):

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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Richard Schneider

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Feb 10, 2023, 12:18:21 PM2/10/23

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So, for example, the first quote of chapter 1 has two separate quotes within a single blockquote. This is pretty common throughout the book. Should I break them up into separate block quotes (which may present some annoying edge cases; he's pretty free with in his styling of block quotes and references), or remove the cite tags?

On a related issue, right now I have a <cite> wrapping any biblical reference, whether it's being directly quoted or not. For example:

The Scriptures mention as honored among the Israelites, many of them serving in the Temple, Doeg, the Edomite, <cite>(1 Samuel 21:7)</cite>; Uriah, the Hittite, <cite>(2 Samuel 11:3)</cite> [...]

If I'm understanding you correctly, I should remove most of those, because they don't apply to a container element (and aren't quotes at all). Is that the case?

B Keith

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Feb 10, 2023, 2:28:42 PM2/10/23

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I don’t think it's worthwhile worrying overly much about the styling of the blockquotes. Split them into two and if absolutely necessary you can adjust spacing etc with targeted css

And I agree about removing the cites as they aren’t properly cites within the Standard system. But maybe wait for Alex to clarify if they are already in place

Bruce

_________

Gaudeamus igitur iuvenes dum sumus

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Alex Cabal

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Feb 10, 2023, 4:30:54 PM2/10/23

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I think it makes sense to break apart those kinds of blockquotes into
separate blocks. It's clearer visually and semantically, and it's more
in line with what typical typography looks like.

On 2/10/23 11:18 AM, Richard Schneider wrote:
>
> So, for example, the first quote of chapter 1

> <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/n5/mode/2up> has two separate quotes within a single blockquote. This is pretty common throughout the book. Should I break them up into separate block quotes (which may present some annoying edge cases; he's pretty free with in his styling of block quotes and references), or remove the cite tags?

>
> On a related issue, right now I have a <cite> wrapping any biblical
> reference, whether it's being directly quoted or not. For example:
>
> The Scriptures mention as honored among the Israelites, many of them
> serving in the Temple, Doeg, the Edomite, <cite>(1 Samuel 21:7)</cite>;
> Uriah, the Hittite, <cite>(2 Samuel 11:3)</cite> [...]
>
> If I'm understanding you correctly, I should remove most of those,
> because they don't apply to a container element (and aren't quotes at
> all). Is that the case?
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:26:12 PM UTC-6 Alex Cabal wrote:
>
> Think of <cite> elements in terms of their meaning. What do they apply
> to? Usually they apply to whatever their container element is. So what
> does it mean for a single to have two <cite>s?
>
> If you have two quotations, they should be in separate <blockquotes>,
> with their own <cite>. Otherwise, <cite> is meaningless.
>
> On 2/9/23 4:55 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> > I'd love to find one of the more classic representations of the
> Tower of
> > Babel (he builds his early argument around it), but I haven't gone
> > through the work of finding PD proof. I also might recall one
> being used
> > for a different book.
> >
> > My <cite> blocks around his biblical references in blockquotes
> (example
> >

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L17 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L17>>) are generating lots of linter errors:

> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/HbetK99z3a4/m/39vZSkjjAAAJ <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/HbetK99z3a4/m/39vZSkjjAAAJ> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/HbetK99z3a4/m/39vZSkjjAAAJ <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/HbetK99z3a4/m/39vZSkjjAAAJ>>> Because so much of the book consists of block quotes, like you have said, I think it makes sense to avoid making any sweeping changes to the text for now, and let the final reviewer take a look at the book as a whole to see if there really is a need for a large-scale change like that.

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L28 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L28> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L28 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L28>>>:

> > >>
> > >> The declaration, “Let us build us a city and a tower whose
> > >> top may reach unto heaven, and let us make us a name, lest
> > >> we be scattered abroad upon the face of the
> > >> earth,”<cite>(Genesis 11:4)</cite>, shows the animus and
> > >> the spirit of the movement
> > >>
> > >> Should I take the Genesis 11:4 citation out of parenthesis
> > >> and put an em dash in front of it? To me, that doesn't
> > >> read as well.
> > >>
> > >> Also, from what I can tell,/should/replace parenthesis
> > >> with an em dash when it's in a blockquote or otherwise not
> > >> part of a sentence,for example
> > >>
> >

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L16 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L16> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L16 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L16>>>(also note the two cites):

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/eb752637-15da-4ecc-b426-d10953c90389n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Standard Ebooks" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:standardebook...@googlegroups.com>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/9e27a69c-63c0-4c0b-94d6-7ab4aac83acfn%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/9e27a69c-63c0-4c0b-94d6-7ab4aac83acfn%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/9e27a69c-63c0-4c0b-94d6-7ab4aac83acfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/9e27a69c-63c0-4c0b-94d6-7ab4aac83acfn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
> --
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Richard Schneider

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Feb 10, 2023, 4:40:43 PM2/10/23

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OK, I'll do that! Thanks.

Richard Schneider

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Feb 12, 2023, 10:58:16 AM2/12/23

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What should I do in these two edge cases in chapter 1?

1) A blockquote on page 29 begins with a (brief) prose citation, instead of putting the reference at the end:

https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/28/mode/2up

https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L140

Or <cite>Proverbs 1:29⁠–⁠31</cite>, “For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord; they would none of my counsel; they despised all my reproof; therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.”

</blockquote>

2) A blockquote on page 34 has a comment after the citation but still in the blockquote formatting:

https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/34/mode/2up

https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-1.xhtml#L202

“Babylon shall become heaps, a dwelling place for dragons, an astonishment, a hissing, without an inhabitant.” <cite>(Jeremiah 51:37.)</cite> Read the whole of chapters 50 and 51.

</blockquote>

B Keith

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Feb 12, 2023, 11:19:46 AM2/12/23

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I’m pretty sure you can go with what is more semantically correct rather than trying to follow the typography exactly. In the first case the quote follows the model of the preceding quote “ In XYZ, Quotation… I think just duplicating what you did for that case make the most sense.

In the second example I would pull the comment out of the blockquote as its not actually semantically part of the blockquote.

I think both these cases are more a matter of lazy typography than intentional usage. But that’s just me:-)

Bruce

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Richard Schneider

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Feb 12, 2023, 11:29:54 AM2/12/23

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>I think both these cases are more a matter of lazy typography than intentional usage. But that’s just me:-)

This book certainly exhibits a degree of "free and unconstrained" typography ;).

OK, that makes sense. I wasn't sure how free we are to use our judgement on that sort of thing. (I'll assume this all needs an [Editorial] commit.)

Thanks!

Richard Schneider

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Apr 16, 2023, 7:58:47 PM4/16/23

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OK, I'm now wondering about using John Martin, Belshazzar's Feast as the cover image. Since it's in the Yale Center for British Art's online collection, do I need to find further PD proof? (Thanks Weijia for pointing out the YCBA is in the new SEMOS.)

Vince

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Apr 16, 2023, 8:26:37 PM4/16/23

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As SEMoS 10.3.3.7.4 says, if it’s labeled CC0, it’s OK.

But in this case all the action is at the bottom where the title bar will be, so you should do a mock-up to make sure it looks as you want. (This is a good idea for all potential covers.)

Richard Schneider

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Apr 16, 2023, 10:44:01 PM4/16/23

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I was mostly interested in the tower in the background over the foreground action; perhaps something along this line:

...but I'm not quite getting a crop that I like. I worry it looks a little incohesive, and if the colors are a bit drab.

I'm also wondering about Joshua Commanding the Sun to Stand Still, also from the YCBA. Example of what I'm thinking:

or

Richard Schneider

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Apr 19, 2023, 8:39:32 PM4/19/23

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I'm not sure what to do with this blockquote. I could break it up into two blockquotes, as discussed for other instances above, or I could add an ellipses. I haven't been able to find the original text; searching for it just leads me to his on this book.

(Also, in a different instance, I combined two quotes in a blockquote into one, because they formed a continuous biblical quotation; presumably he broke it up because it was two verses.)

Weijia Cheng

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Apr 20, 2023, 12:13:07 AM4/20/23

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I would personally leave that one as printed if it's not clear what the original source or intent is.

Richard Schneider

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May 3, 2023, 8:30:51 PM5/3/23

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A couple more questions from Chapter 4:

What should do I with his citation of Justin Martyr's Second Apology here:
https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/116/mode/1up
He just writes "apology 2nd"; should I mark it up as a book title despite it not being the proper title, change the text, or leave it as is?
Should I convert this list to a <ul>, or leave it as is (since, while numbered, it's not formatted differently from the rest of the text)?
https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/118/mode/1up
From that same page and following pages, is there any additional markup I should add to the "Vol." citations in the quotes? Right now I have <abbr> around "Vol." and "p.", and a <cite> wrapping the whole thing.

Weijia Cheng

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May 3, 2023, 8:40:59 PM5/3/23

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I think you can leave "apology 2nd" as it is; the Second Apology isn't all that long so this seems analogous to a chapter citation to me. But maybe someone else will have a different opinion.

I usually convert those kinds of numbered lists into <ol>s. We are trying to replicate the semantics, not the formatting, and semantically it is an ordered list so we can represent it in HTML as such.

I think the "Vol." citations look good.

Richard Schneider

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May 4, 2023, 12:05:26 AM5/4/23

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I appear to be incapable of not writing <ul> when I mean <̶u̶l̶>̶ <ol>.

Ok, thanks!

Richard Schneider

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Jun 28, 2023, 3:06:30 PM6/28/23

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Ok, I think I've decided on Belshazzar's Feast for the cover. Do I need any additional approval before adding it to the repo?

Alex Cabal

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Jun 28, 2023, 3:12:12 PM6/28/23

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Can you just send me a link to the PD proof again? This was a long time
ago and I don't have time to dig through this thread right now.

On 6/28/23 2:06 PM, Richard Schneider wrote:
> Ok, I think I've decided on /Belshazzar's Feast/ for the cover. Do I

> need any additional approval before adding it to the repo?
> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 11:05:26 PM UTC-5 Richard Schneider wrote:
>
> I appear to be incapable of not writing <ul> when I mean <̶u̶l̶>̶ <ol>.
>
> Ok, thanks!
> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-5 weijia...@gmail.com wrote:
>

> I think you can leave "apology 2nd" as it is; the /Second
> Apology/ isn't all that long so this seems analogous to a

> chapter citation to me. But maybe someone else will have a
> different opinion.
>
> I usually convert those kinds of numbered lists into <ol>s. We
> are trying to replicate the semantics, not the formatting, and
> semantically it is an ordered list so we can represent it in
> HTML as such.
>
> I think the "Vol." citations look good.
>
> On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 5:30:51 PM UTC-7
> ric...@schneiderbox.net wrote:
>
> A couple more questions from Chapter 4:
>

> * What should do I with his citation of Justin Martyr's
> /Second Apology/ here:
> https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/116/mode/1up <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/116/mode/1up>

> He just writes "apology 2nd"; should I mark it up as a
> book title despite it not being the proper title, change
> the text, or leave it as is?

> * Should I convert this list to a <ul>, or leave it as is

> (since, while numbered, it's not formatted differently
> from the rest of the text)?

> https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/118/mode/1up <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/118/mode/1up>
> * From that same page and following pages, is there any

> additional markup I should add to the "Vol." citations
> in the quotes? Right now I have<abbr> around "Vol." and
> "p.", and a <cite> wrapping the whole thing

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-4.xhtml#L56>.

>
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:13:07 PM UTC-5
> weijia...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I would personally leave that one as printed if it's not
> clear what the original source or intent is.
>
> On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 5:39:32 PM UTC-7
> ric...@schneiderbox.net wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what to do with this blockquote

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-2.xhtml#L214>. I could break it up into two blockquotes, as discussed for other instances above, or I could add an ellipses. I haven't been able to find the original text; searching for it just leads me to his on this book.

>
> (Also, in a different instance

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/commit/a3c379b406df4c7d43ba880573a5488b63918713>, I combined two quotes in a blockquote into one, because they formed a continuous biblical quotation; presumably he broke it up because it was two verses.)

> On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 9:44:01 PM UTC-5
> Richard Schneider wrote:
>
> I was mostly interested in the tower in the
> background over the foreground action; perhaps
> something along this line:
>

> martin-cover.jpg
>
> ...but I'm not quite getting a crop that I like.
> I worry it looks a little incohesive, and if the
> colors are a bit drab.
>

> I'm also wondering about /Joshua Commanding the
> Sun to Stand Still/
> <https://collections.britishart.yale.edu/catalog/tms:289>, also from the YCBA. Example of what I'm thinking:
>
> joshua-cover.jpg
>
> or

>
> joshua-cover2.jpg
> On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 7:26:37 PM UTC-5
> Vince wrote:
>
> As SEMoS 10.3.3.7.4

> <https://standardebooks.org/manual/1.7.0/single-page#10.3.3.7.4> says, if it’s labeled CC0, it’s OK.

>
> But in this case all the action is at the
> bottom where the title bar will be, so you
> should do a mock-up to make sure it looks as
> you want. (This is a good idea for all
> potential covers.)
>
>
>> On Apr 16, 2023, at 6:58 PM, Richard
>> Schneider <ric...@schneiderbox.net> wrote:
>>
>> OK, I'm now wondering about using John

>> Martin,/Belshazzar's
>> Feast/<https://collections.britishart.yale.edu/catalog/tms:924>as the cover image. Since it's in the Yale Center for British Art's online collection, do I need to find further PD proof? (Thanks Weijia forpointing out the YCBA is in the new SEMOS <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/MnxomaLmfJE/m/xO8EOFnFAwAJ>.)

>
> --
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Richard Schneider

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Jun 28, 2023, 3:14:26 PM6/28/23

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Sure! It's in the YBCA collection: https://collections.britishart.yale.edu/catalog/tms:924

Alex Cabal

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Jun 28, 2023, 3:21:03 PM6/28/23

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OK, thanks!

> https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/116/mode/1up <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/116/mode/1up> <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/116/mode/1up <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/116/mode/1up>>

> > He just writes "apology 2nd"; should I mark it up as a
> > book title despite it not being the proper title, change
> > the text, or leave it as is?
> > * Should I convert this list to a <ul>, or leave it as is
> > (since, while numbered, it's not formatted differently
> > from the rest of the text)?
> >

> https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/118/mode/1up <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/118/mode/1up> <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/118/mode/1up <https://archive.org/details/lipscomb_civilgovernment_1913scans/page/118/mode/1up>>

> > * From that same page and following pages, is there any
> > additional markup I should add to the "Vol." citations
> > in the quotes? Right now I have<abbr> around "Vol." and
> > "p.", and a <cite> wrapping the whole thing
> >

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-4.xhtml#L56 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-4.xhtml#L56>>.

> >
> > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:13:07 PM UTC-5
> > weijia...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > I would personally leave that one as printed if it's not
> > clear what the original source or intent is.
> >
> > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 5:39:32 PM UTC-7
> > ric...@schneiderbox.net wrote:
> >
> > I'm not sure what to do with this blockquote
> >

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-2.xhtml#L214 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-2.xhtml#L214>>. I could break it up into two blockquotes, as discussed for other instances above, or I could add an ellipses. I haven't been able to find the original text; searching for it just leads me to his on this book.

> >
> > (Also, in a different instance
> >

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/commit/a3c379b406df4c7d43ba880573a5488b63918713 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/commit/a3c379b406df4c7d43ba880573a5488b63918713>>, I combined two quotes in a blockquote into one, because they formed a continuous biblical quotation; presumably he broke it up because it was two verses.)

> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/MnxomaLmfJE/m/xO8EOFnFAwAJ <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/MnxomaLmfJE/m/xO8EOFnFAwAJ>>.)

> >
> > --
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> send
> > an email to standardebook...@googlegroups.com
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> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/30c1c2f5-2c38-4dc6-abb2-ec430eddf084n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/30c1c2f5-2c38-4dc6-abb2-ec430eddf084n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/30c1c2f5-2c38-4dc6-abb2-ec430eddf084n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/standardebooks/30c1c2f5-2c38-4dc6-abb2-ec430eddf084n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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Richard Schneider

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Jul 1, 2023, 6:07:48 PM7/1/23

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I'm having trouble finding the Library of Congress catalog listing (it doesn't even appear the list of works by the author). What should I do for the subject metadata?

(Here's what Worldcat has: https://www.worldcat.org/formats-editions/1202456338)

Alex Cabal

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Jul 2, 2023, 11:42:51 AM7/2/23

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If it's not in LoC, then let's not include any subjects. <dc:subject>
can only be LoC entries per our style so if there aren't any, not much
for us to do. You should of course still select an appropriate <meta
property="se:subject">

> > > He just writes "apology 2nd"; should I mark it up as a
> > > book title despite it not being the proper title, change
> > > the text, or leave it as is?
> > > * Should I convert this list to a <ul>, or leave it as is
> > > (since, while numbered, it's not formatted differently
> > > from the rest of the text)?
> > >
> >

> > > * From that same page and following pages, is there any
> > > additional markup I should add to the "Vol." citations
> > > in the quotes? Right now I have<abbr> around "Vol." and
> > > "p.", and a <cite> wrapping the whole thing
> > >
> >

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-4.xhtml#L56 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-4.xhtml#L56> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-4.xhtml#L56 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-4.xhtml#L56>>>.

> > >
> > > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 11:13:07 PM UTC-5
> > > weijia...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I would personally leave that one as printed if it's not
> > > clear what the original source or intent is.
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 5:39:32 PM UTC-7
> > > ric...@schneiderbox.net wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what to do with this blockquote
> > >
> >

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-2.xhtml#L214 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-2.xhtml#L214> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-2.xhtml#L214 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/blob/master/src/epub/text/chapter-2.xhtml#L214>>>. I could break it up into two blockquotes, as discussed for other instances above, or I could add an ellipses. I haven't been able to find the original text; searching for it just leads me to his on this book.

> > >
> > > (Also, in a different instance
> > >
> >

> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/commit/a3c379b406df4c7d43ba880573a5488b63918713 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/commit/a3c379b406df4c7d43ba880573a5488b63918713> <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/commit/a3c379b406df4c7d43ba880573a5488b63918713 <https://github.com/richardjs/david-lipscomb_civil-government/commit/a3c379b406df4c7d43ba880573a5488b63918713>>>, I combined two quotes in a blockquote into one, because they formed a continuous biblical quotation; presumably he broke it up because it was two verses.)

> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/MnxomaLmfJE/m/xO8EOFnFAwAJ <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/MnxomaLmfJE/m/xO8EOFnFAwAJ> <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/MnxomaLmfJE/m/xO8EOFnFAwAJ <https://groups.google.com/g/standardebooks/c/MnxomaLmfJE/m/xO8EOFnFAwAJ>>>.)

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Richard Schneider

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Jul 2, 2023, 9:19:25 PM7/2/23

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OK, makes sense! I wonder why it's not in the LoC collection; it was republished as recently as 2011.

Thanks!

Richard Schneider

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Jul 3, 2023, 11:42:01 PM7/3/23

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Should "to-day" be modernized? The step-by-step guide gives "to-night" as the example of hyphenation to be modernized, but I don't see either to-night or to-day in the modernize command's code.

(Sorry if this is discussed elsewhere in the group archives; it's a tricky thing to search for.)

Vince

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Jul 3, 2023, 11:48:25 PM7/3/23

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Modernize spelling will update both. They’re not handled separately in the code, they’re handled through the the modernize_hyphenation function that checks if the non-dash version of every dashed word exists in the words file.

Richard Schneider

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Jul 4, 2023, 12:17:20 AM7/4/23

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Ah, I see that now. Thanks!

(Turns out I hadn't run the command on later chapters, which confused me.)

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