Fwd: Fw: Arjun Singh's interview - India of our dreams deserves a better HRD
Srikaran Kandadai
I think we should have job reservations in all the fields.
I completely support the PM and all the politicians for promoting this.
Let's start the reservation with our cricket team. We should have 10
percent reservation for Muslims. 30 percent for OBC, SC/ST like that.
Cricket rules should be modified accordingly. The boundary circle should be
reduced for an SC/ST player. The four hit by an OBC player should be
considered as a six and a six hit by an OBC player should be counted as 8
runs. An OBC player
scoring 60 runs should be declared as a century.
We should influence ICC and make rules so that the pace bowlers like Shoaib
Akhtar should not bowl fast balls to our OBC player. Bowlers should bowl
maximum speed of 80 kilometer per hour to an OBC player. Any delivery above
this speed should be made illegal.
Also we should have reservation in Olympics. In the 100 meters race, an OBC
player should be given a gold medal if he runs 80 meters.
There can be reservation in Government jobs also. Let's recruit SC/ST and
OBC pilots for aircrafts which are carrying the ministers and politicians
(that can really help the country...)
Ensure that only SC/ST and OBC doctors do the operations for the ministers
and other politicians. (Another way of saving the country...)
Let's be creative and think of ways and means to guide INDIA forward...
Lets show the world that INDIA is a GREAT country. Let's be proud of being
an INDIAN...
May the good breed of politicians like ARJUN SINGH long live...
Now, here is a really nice interview of Arjun Singh by Karan Thapar.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: shastr...@in.abnamro.com < shastr...@in.abnamro.com>
Date: May 22, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: Fw: Arjun Singh's interview - India of our dreams deserves a better HRD
To:
Decision on quota is final: Arjun
CNN-IBN
Posted Sunday , May 21, 2006 at 20:58
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to the Devil's Advocate. As the
debate over the reservations for the OBCs divides the country, we ask -
What are the government's real intentions? That is the critical questions
that I shall put today in an exclusive interview to the Minister for Human
Resource Development Arjun Singh.
Most of the people would accept that steps are necessary to help the OBCs
gain greater access to higher education. The real question is - Why do
you believe that reservations is the best way of doing this?
Arjun Singh: I wouldn't like to say much more on this because these
are decisions that are taken not by individuals alone. And in this case,
the entire Parliament of this country - almost with rare anonymity - has
decided to take this decision.
Karan Thapar: Except that Parliament is not infallible. In the Emergency,
when it amended the Constitution, it was clearly wrong, it had to reverse
its own amendments. So, the question arises - Why does Parliament believe
that the reservation is the right way of helping the OBCs?
Arjun Singh: Nobody is infallible. But Parliament is Supreme and atleast
I, as a Member of Parliament, cannot but accept the supremacy of Parliament.
Karan Thapar: No doubt Parliament is supreme, but the constitutional
amendment that gives you your authorities actually unenabling amendment,
it is not a compulsory requirement. Secondly, the language of the amendment
does not talk about reservations, the language talks about any provision
by law for advancement of socially and educationally backward classes.
So, you could have chosen anything other than reservations, why reservations?
Arjun Singh: Because as I said, that was the 'will and desire of the
Parliament'.
Karan Thapar: Do you personally also, as Minister of Human Resource
Development , believe that reservations is the right and proper way to
help the OBCs?
Arjun Singh: Certainly, that is one of the most important ways to do
it.
Karan Thapar: The right way?
Arjun Singh: Also the right way.
Karan Thapar: In which case, lets ask a few basic questions; we
are talking about the reservations for the OBCs in particular. Do you know
what percentage of the Indian population is OBC? Mandal puts it at 52 per
cent, the National Sample Survey Organisation at 32 per cent, the National
Family and Health Survey at 29.8 per cent, which is the correct figure?
Arjun Singh: I think that should be decided by people who are more
knowledgeable. But the point is that the OBCs form a fairly sizeable percentage
of our population.
Karan Thapar: No doubt, but the reason why it is important to know
'what percentage' they form is that if you are going to have reservations
for them, then you must know what percentage of the population they are,
otherwise you don't know whether they are already adequately catered in
higher educational institutions or not.
Arjun Singh: That is obvious - they are not.
Karan Thapar: Why is it obvious?
Arjun Singh: Obvious because it is something which we all see.
Karan Thapar: Except for the fact that the NSSO, which is a government
appointed body, has actually in its research in 1999 - which is the most
latest research shown - that 23.5 per cent of all university seats are
already with the OBCs. And that is just 8.5 per cent less than what the
NSSO believes is the OBC share of the population. So, for a difference
of 8 per cent, would reservations be the right way of making up the difference?
Arjun Singh: I wouldn't like to go behind all this because, as I said,
Parliament has taken a view and it has taken a decision, I am a servant
of Parliament and I will only implement.
Karan Thapar: Absolutely, Parliament has taken a view, I grant it.
But what people question is the simple fact - Is there a need for reservations?
If you don't know what percentage of the country is OBC, and if furthermore,
the NSSO is correct in pointing out that already 23.5 per cent of the college
seats are with the OBC, then you don't have a case in terms of need.
Arjun Singh: College seats, I don't know.
Karan Thapar: According to the NSSO - which is a government appointed
body - 23.5 per cent of the college seats are already with the OBCs.
Arjun Singh: What do you mean by college seats?
Karan Thapar: University seats, seats of higher education.
Arjun Singh: Well, I don't know I have not come across that far.
Karan Thapar: So, when critics say to you that you don't have a
case for reservation in terms of need, what do you say to them?
Arjun Singh: I have said what I had to say and the point is that that
is not an issue for us to now debate.
Karan Thapar: You mean the chapter is now closed?
Arjun Singh: The decision has been taken.
Karan Thapar: Regardless of whether there is a need or not, the
decision is taken and it is a closed chapter.
Arjun Singh: So far as I can see, it is a closed chapter and that is
why I have to implement what all Parliament has said.
Karan Thapar: Minister, it is not just in terms of 'need' that your
critics question the decision to have reservation for OBCs in higher education.
More importantly, they question whether reservations themselves are efficacious
and can work.
For example, a study done by the IITs themselves shows that 50 per cent
of the IIT seats for the SCs and STs remain vacant and for the remaining
50 per cent, 25 per cent are the candidates, who even after six years fail
to get their degrees. So, clearly, in their case, reservations are not
working.
Arjun Singh: I would only say that on this issue, it would not be correct
to go by all these figures that have been paraded.
Karan Thapar: You mean the IIT figures themselves could be dubious?
Arjun Singh: Not dubious, but I think that is not the last word.
Karan Thapar: All right, maybe the IIT may not be the last word,
let me then quote to you the report of the Parliamentary Committee on the
welfare for the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes - that is a Parliamentary
body.
It says that looking at the Delhi University, between 1995 and 2000, just
half the seats for under-graduates at the Scheduled Castes level and just
one-third of the seats for under-graduates at the Scheduled Tribes level
were filled. All the others went empty, unfilled. So, again, even in Delhi
University, reservations are not working.
Arjun Singh: If they are not working, it does not mean that for that
reason we don't need them. There must be some other reason why they are
not working and that can be certainly probed and examined. But to say that
for this reason, 'no reservations need to be done' is not correct.
Karan Thapar: Fifty years after the reservations were made, statistics
show, according to The Hindustan Times, that overall in India, only 16
per cent of the places in higher education are occupied by SCs and STs.
The quota is 22.5 per cent, which means that only two-thirds of the quota
is occupied. One third is going waste, it is being denied to other people.
Arjun Singh: As I said, the kind of figures that have been brought
out, in my perception, do not reflect the realities. Realities are something
much more and of course, there is an element of prejudice also.
Karan Thapar: But these are figures that come from a Parliamentary
Committee. It can't be prejudiced; they are your own colleagues.
Arjun Singh: Parliamentary Committee has given the figures, but as
to why this has not happened, that is a different matter.
Karan Thapar: I put it to you that you don't have a case for reservations
in terms of need, you don't have a case for reservations in terms of their
efficacy, why then, are you insisting on extending them to the OBCs?
Arjun Singh: I don't want to use that word, but I think that your argument
is basically fallicious.
Karan Thapar: But it is based on all the facts available in the
public domain.
Arjun Singh: Those are facts that need to be gone into with more care.
What lies behind those facts, why this has not happened, that is also a
fact.
Karan Thapar: Let's approach the issue of reservations differently
in that case. Reservations mean that a lesser-qualified candidate gets
preference over a more qualified candidate, solely because in this case,
he or she happens to be an OBC. In other words, the upper castes are being
penalised for being upper caste.
Arjun Singh: Nobody is being penalised and that is a factor that we
are trying to address. I think that the prime Minister will be talking
to all the political parties and will be putting forward a formula, which
will see that nobody is being penalised.
Karan Thapar: I want very much to talk about that formula, but before
we come to talk about how you are going to address concerns, let me point
one other corollary - Reservations also gives preference and favour to
caste over merit. Is that acceptable in a modern society?
Arjun Singh: I don't think the perceptions of modern society fit India
entirely.
Karan Thapar: You mean India is not a modern society and therefore
can't claim to be treated as one?
Arjun Singh: It is emerging as a modern society, but the parameters
of a modern society do not apply to large sections of the people in this
country.
Karan Thapar: Let me quote to you Jawaharlal Nehru, a man whom you
personally admire enormously. On the 27th of June 1961 wrote to the Chief
Ministers of the day as follows: I dislike any kind of reservations. If
we go in for any kind of reservations on communal and caste basis, we will
swamp the bright and able people and remain second rate or third rate.
The moment we encourage the second rate, we are lost. And then he adds
pointedly: This way lies not only folly, but also disaster. What do you
say to Jawaharlal Nehru today?
Arjun Singh: Jawaharlal Nehru was a great man in his own right and
not only me, but everyone in India accept his view.
Karan Thapar: But you are just about to ignore his advice.
Arjun Singh: No. Are you aware that it was Jawaharlal Nehru who introduced
the first ammendment regarding OBCs?
Karan Thapar: Yes, and I am talking about Jawaharlal Nehru in 1961,
when clearly he had changed his position, he said - I dislike any kind
of reservations.
Arjun Singh: I don't think one could take Panditji's position at any
point of time and then overlook what he had himself initiated.
Karan Thapar: Am I then to understand that regardless of the case
that is made against reservations in terms of need, regardless of the case
that has been made against reservations in terms of efficacy, regardless
of the case that has been made against reservations in terms of Jawaharlal
Nehru, you remain committed to extending reservations to the OBCs.
Arjun Singh: I said because that is the will of Parliament. And I think
that common decisions that are taken by Parliament have to be honoured.
Karan Thapar: Let me ask you a few basic questions - If reservations
are going to happen for the OBCs in higher education, what percentage of
reservations are we talking about?
Arjun Singh: No, that I can't say because that has yet to be decided.
Karan Thapar: Could it be less than 27 per cent?
Arjun Singh: I can't say anything on that, I have told you in the very
beginning that at this point of time it is not possible for me to.
Karan Thapar: Quite right. If you can't say, then that also means
that the figure has not been decided.
Arjun Singh: The figure will be decided, it has not been decided yet.
Karan Thapar: The figure has not been decided. So, therefore the
figure could be 27, but it could be less than 27 too?
Arjun Singh: I don't want to speculate on that because as I said, that
is decision, which will be taken by Parliament.
Karan Thapar: Whatever the figure, one thing is certain that when
the reservations for OBCs happen, the total quantum of reservations will
go up in percentage terms. Will you compensate by increasing the total
number of seats in colleges, universities, IITs and IIMs, so that the other
students don't feel deprived.
Arjun Singh: That is one of the suggestions that has been made and
is being seriously considered.
Karan Thapar: Does it find favour with you as a Minister for Human
Resource Development?
Arjun Singh: Whatever suggestion comes, we are committed to examine
it.
Karan Thapar: You may be committed to examine it, but do you as
minister believe that that is the right way forward?
Arjun Singh: That could be one of the ways, but not the only way.
Karan Thapar: What are the other ways?
Arjun Singh: I don't know. That is for the Prime Minister and the other
ministers to decide.
Karan Thapar: One way forward would be to increase the total number
of seats.
Arjun Singh: Yes, definitely.
Karan Thapar: But the problem is that as the Times of India points
out, we are talking of an increase of perhaps as much as 53 per cent. Given
the constraints you have in terms of faculty and infrastructure, won't
that order of increase dilute the quality of education?
Arjun Singh: I would only make one humble request, don't go by The
Times of India and The Hindustan Times about faculty and infrastructure,
because they are trying to focus on an argument which they have made.
Karan Thapar: All right, I will not go by The Times of India, let
me instead go by Sukhdev Thorat, the Chairman of the UGC. He points out
that today, at higher education levels - that is all universities, IITs
and IIMs - there is already a 1.2 lakh vacancy number. 40 per cent of these
are in teaching staff, which the IIT faculty themselves point out that
they have shortages of up to 30 per cent. Given those two constraint, can
you increase the number of seats?
Arjun Singh: That can be addressed and that shortage can be taken care
of.
Karan Thapar: But it can't be taken care of in one swoop, it will
take several years to do it.
Arjun Singh: I don't know whether it can be taken care of straightway
or in stages, that is a subject to be decided.
Karan Thapar: Let me ask you bluntly, if you were to agree to compensate
for reservations for OBCs by increasing the number of seats, would that
increase happen at one go, or would it be staggered over a period of two-three
or four year old process.
Arjun Singh: As I told you, it is an issue that I cannot comment upon
at this moment because that is under examination.
Karan Thapar: So, it may happen in one go and it may happen in a
series of several years.
Arjun Singh: I can't speculate on that because that is not something
on which I am free to speak on today.
Karan Thapar: Will the reservation for OBCs, whatever figure your
Committee decides on, will it happen in one go, or will it slowly be introduced
in stages?
Arjun Singh: That also I cannot say because as I told you, all these
issues are under consideration.
Karan Thapar: Which means that everything that is of germane interest
to the people concerned is at the moment 'under consideration' and the
government is not able to give any satisfaction to the students who are
deeply concerned.
Arjun Singh: That is not the point. The government knows what to do
and it will do what is needed.
Karan Thapar: But if the government knows what to do, why won't
you tell me what the government wants to do?
Arjun Singh: Because unless the decision is taken, I cannot tell you.
Karan Thapar: But you can share with me as the Minister what you
are thinking.
Arjun Singh: No.
Karan Thapar: So, in other words, we are manitaining a veil of secrecy
and the very people who are concerned...
Arjun Singh: I am not maintaining a veil of secrecy. I am only telling
you what propriety allows me to tell you.
Karan Thapar: Propriety does not allow you to share with the people
who are protesting on the streets what you are thinking?
Arjun Singh: I don't think that that can happen all the time.
Karan Thapar: But there are people who feel that their lives and
their futures are at stake and they are undertaking fasts until death.
Arjun Singh: It is being hyped up, I don't want to go into that.
Karan Thapar: Do you have no sympathy for them?
Arjun Singh: I have every sympathy.
Karan Thapar: But you say it is being hyped up.
Arjun Singh: Yes, it is hyped up.
Karan Thapar: So, then, what sympathy are you showing?
Arjun Singh: I am showing sympathy to them and not to those who are
hyping it up.
Karan Thapar: The CPM says that if the reservations for the OBCs
are to happen, then what is called the creamy layer should be excluded.
How do you react to that?
Arjun Singh: The creamy layer issue has already been taken care of
by the Supreme Court.
Karan Thapar: That was vis -a-vis jobs in employment, what about
at the university level, should they be excluded there as well because
you are suggesting that the answer is yes?
Arjun Singh: That could be possible.
Karan Thapar: It could be possible that the creamy layer is excluded
from reservations for OBCs in higher education?
Arjun Singh: It could be, but I don't know whether it would happen
actually.
Karan Thapar: Many people say that if reservations for OBCs in higher
education happen, then the children of beneficiaries should not be entitled
to claim the same benefit.
Arjun Singh: Why?
Karan Thapar: So that there is always a shrinking base and the rate
doesn't proliferate.
Arjun Singh: I don't think that that is a very logical way of looking
at it.
Karan Thapar: Is that not acceptable to you?
Arjun Singh: No, it is not the logical way of looking at it.
Karan Thapar: So, with the possible exception of the creamy layer
exclusion, reservation for OBCs in higher education will be almost identical
to the existing reservations for SC/STs?
Arjun Singh: Except for the percentage.
Karan Thapar: Except for the percentage.
Arjun Singh: Yes.
Karan Thapar: So, in every other way, they will be identical.
Arjun Singh: Yes, in every other way.
Karan Thapar: Mr Arjun Singh, on the 5th of April when you first
indicated that the Government was considering reservation for OBCs in higher
education, was the Prime Minister in agreement that this was the right
thing to do?
Arjun Singh: I think, there is a very motivated propaganda is on this
issue. Providing reservation to OBCs was in the public domain right from
December 2005, when Parliament passed the enabling resolution.
Karan Thapar: Quite true. But had the Prime Minister specifically
agreed on or before 5th of April to the idea?
Arjun Singh: Well, I am telling you it was already there. A whole Act
was made, the Constitution was amended and the Prime Minister was fully
aware of what this is going to mean. Actually, he had a meeting in which
OBC leaders were called to convince them that this would give them the
desired advantage. And they should, therefore, support this resolution.
And at that meeting, he himself talked to them. Now, how do you say that
he was unaware?
Karan Thapar: But were you at all aware that the Prime Minister
might be in agreement with what was about to happen but might not wish
it disclosed publicly at that point of time? Were you aware of that?
Arjun Singh: It was already there in public domain, that's what I am
trying to tell you.
Karan Thapar: Then answer this to me. Why are members of the PMO
telling journalists that Prime Minister was not consulted and that you
jumped the gun?
Arjun Singh: Well, I don't know which member of the PMO you are talking
about unless you name him.
Karan Thapar: Is there a conspiracy to make you the fall guy?
Arjun Singh: Well, I don't know whether there is one or there is not.
But fall guys are not made in this way. And I am only doing what was manifestly
clear to every one, was cleared by the party and the Prime Minister. There
is no question of any personal agenda.
Karan Thapar: They say that, in fact, you brought up this issue
to embarrass the Prime Minister.
Arjun Singh: Why should I embarrass the Prime Minister? I am with him.
I am part of his team.
Karan Thapar: They say that you have a lingering, forgive the word,
jealousy because Sonia Gandhi chose Manmohan Singh and not you as Prime
Minister.
Arjun Singh: Well, that is canard which is below contempt. Only that
person can say this who doesn't know what kind of respect and regard I
hold for Sonia Gandhi. She is the leader. Whatever she decides is acceptable
to me.
Karan Thapar: They also say that you brought this issue up because
you felt that the Prime Minister had been eating into your portfolio. Part
of it had gone to Renuka Chaudhury and, in fact, your new deputy minister
Purandar Sridevi had taken over certain parts. This was your way of getting
back.
Arjun Singh: No one was taking over any part. This is a decision which
the Prime Minister makes as to who has to have what portfolio. And he asked
Mrs Renuka Devi to take it and he cleared it with me first.
Karan Thapar: So there is no animus on your part?
Arjun Singh: Absolutely not.
Karan Thapar: They say that you did this because you resented the
Prime Minister's popular image in the country, that this was your way of
embroiling him in a dispute that will make him look not like a modern reformer
but like an old-fashioned, family-hold politician instead.
Arjun Singh: Well, the Tammany Hall political stage is over> He
is our Prime Minister and every decision he has taken is in the full consent
with his Cabinet and I don't think there can be any blame on him.
Karan Thapar: One, then, last quick question. Do you think this
is an issue, which is a sensitive issue, where everyone knew there would
have been passions and emotions that would have aroused has been handled
as effectively as it should have been?
Arjun Singh: Well, I have not done anything on it. I have not sort
of what you call jumped the gun. If this is an issue, which is sensitive,
everyone has to treat it that way.
Karan Thapar: But your conscience as HRD Minister is clear?
Arjun Singh: Absolutely clear.
Karan Thapar: There is nothing that you could have done to make
it easier for the young students?
Arjun Singh: Well, I am prepared to do anything that can be done. And
it is being attempted.
Karan Thapar: For seven weeks, they have been protesting in the
hot sun. No minister has gone there to appease them, to alley their concerns,
to express sympathy for them. Have politicians let the young people of
India down?
Arjun Singh: Well, I myself called them. They all came in this very
room.
Karan Thapar: But you are the only one.
Arjun Singh: You are accusing me only. No one else is being accused.
Karan Thapar: What about the Government of India? Has the Government
of India failed to respond adequately?
Arjun Singh: From the Government of India also, the Defence Minister
met them.
Karan Thapar: Only recently.
Arjun Singh: That is something because everyone was busy with the elections.
Karan Thapar: For seven weeks no one met them.
Arjun Singh: No, but we are very concerned. Certainly, all of us resent
the kind of force that was used. I condemned it the very first day it happened.
Karan Thapar: All right, Mr Arjun Singh. We have reached the end
of this interview. Thank you very much for speaking on the subject.
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