is spiel screenreader bein developed

[gary melconian]

Hello I went to the site for spiel project. It gives mea 502 gateway error. So I am wondering is spiel still being developed. If so if I can havea link ot grab eh latestsnapshot of spiel builds.

[Dennis Long]

I get that to.

On 11/19/2013 7:28 PM, gary melconian wrote:
> Hello I went to the site for spiel project. It gives mea 502 gateway

> error. SoI am wondering is spiel still being developed. If so if I can

> havea link ot grab eh latestsnapshot of spiel builds.
>

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[Piotr Machacz]

Yeah, ditto, it’s been like that for at least a week. Maybe 2. It’d be really sad to see Spiel die like that…

[Dennis Long]

what I would like to see is 1 spiel not stop development and 2 a version
that will run on 4.2. thanks.

On 11/20/2013 11:57 AM, Piotr Machacz wrote:
> Yeah, ditto, it�s been like that for at least a week. Maybe 2. It�d be really sad to see Spiel die like that�

[Nolan Darilek]

I haven't touched the code in months.

Additionally, a bug with some of the software I use on my server ate a bunch of containers in which various apps were running. This included all of my websites, my IM server and Spiel's source code repository and infrastructure. Fortunately most of the data was backed up or stored locally, but I still have to set up the infrastructure again, preferably under a version of Docker which doesn't exhibit the behavior that wiped it out in the first place. My hope is to rebuild everything in the coming weeks.

But I think it's important to take a hard look at Spiel's future, and I'm not seeing that it has one. It's been almost a one-person project since the beginning, and I've had a grand total of one external coder make a few contributions. Language translations are awesome, but they don't remove anything from my todo list. Compare this to other open source Android projects I use which have smaller userbases but somehow more coding contributors.

Additionally, working on Spiel alone just isn't financially viable for me. If others rallied around and took up some of the coding effort, then we could all pitch in a few hours a week and make something awesome. I've gotten a lot of talk, but not a lot of uptake in that area. For me to implement all the features people want, and notice this thread also included a request for 4.2 support but not offers to help with that, would require a significant time expenditure from me each week. I would probably have to spend at least 10-20 hours per week for several months implementing the ideas I have, and right now I need that time for other things.

Further, I don't see how to make Spiel financially viable, short of me getting paid to work on it part-time as was true earlier this year. Selling Spiel for something like $10 is a losing proposition when one's time is valued at $100, $50 or even $25/hour and you're suddenly dealing with support and feature requests, bug reports and other interactions with a paid customer base who want an improving product. At $10 per unit of Spiel sold, valuing my time at the low $25/hour figure, I'd need 2.5 new customers per hour of *all* Spiel work, from website changes to code to support, for it to be worth pursuing. I suppose I could fix that by selling SMAs and see how popular that turns out to be. :P Donations don't work, either. Some of you have been incredibly generous--I even got a $500 donation from one person--but it's always the same people donating. That's awesome, but not sustainable. I've considered crowdfunding--trying to raise something like $5000 for a few months of Spiel development. If that sounds like a lot, know that $50/hour is a low-ball rate for software development time, and last year I paid out nearly 20% of my self-employment income in taxes. $5000 would pay for 200 hours of work at $25/hour--five weeks of full-time effort--and the IRS would take nearly $1000 of that when all is said and done. But the crowdfunding model may not work, or might produce development in short spurts rather than at a sustained level, and I don't know if that is fair to the community.

Also, without giving too much away at this point, I'm working on starting my own software company to market certain app and game ideas I've been toying with. For various reasons, I've decided that I'm not terribly interested in working for anyone else in a traditional employer-employee relationship again (exceptional circumstances and non-traditional workplace environments not withstanding) so me getting this business off the ground is essential if I am to stop living on $665/month and start actually getting back some financial security.

In summary, for Spiel development to continue in a serious and reliable fassion, we either need a community of coders behind us, or a certain degree of financial security with vast preference given to cooperative or other non-authoritarian work situations. Without either, my time has to go toward bootstrapping my own business. If I don't do this, I'll still be picking away at Spiel next year at this time, with my situation little improved.

Thanks for reading. I'm open to other thoughts and ideas, but I've worked on this for four years now. I'm sure there are things that I could do better as far as organizing a community, but nothing prevents others from taking that initiative either.

On 11/19/2013 06:28 PM, gary melconian wrote:

Hello I went to the site for spiel project. It gives mea 502 gateway error. So I am wondering is spiel still being developed. If so if I can havea link ot grab eh latestsnapshot of spiel builds.

!DSPAM:528c024b221511083774440! --

[Dennis Long]

what about if you would commit to development maybe getting people to
donate on a monthly bases? I would donate if you would continue
development. If I knew how to code I would code. I unfortunately don't.

>> is spiel screenreader bein developed

>>
>> Hello I went to the site for spiel project. It gives mea 502 gateway

>> error. SoI am wondering is spiel still being developed. If so if I can

[Nolan Darilek]

I'd have to consider it. I've heard lots of things from people over the
years about how they'd do X or Y, but often that is just talk. If it
became something where I got a few hundred per month then it might be
worth pursuing, but I think I'd like to see that happen first rather
than plugging away in an unsustainable manner and hoping that it might.

Even with that, though, I don't see this being sustainable unless a few
more folks step up. The Android accessibility landscape has shifted lots
just in the past year and a half, and each new version of Android brings
significant changes and improvements to access. We saw no tangible
changes to the accessibility APIs between their introduction in
September '09 until touchscreen support landed in October '11, and now
each new release brings along significant improvements. Also, keep in
mind that Google knows what improvements will land in 4.3, 4.4, 4.5/5.0,
etc. so they can be providing that support in TalkBack whereas Spiel
plays catch-up...all with one person who's trying to eek by, put out a
bunch of fires in his personal life and start a business.

But if you're serious about wanting to donate in a sustainable manner,
I'd point you to my Gittip (https://www.gittip.com/thewordnerd/). Gittip
is my preferred means of donation because it encourages sustainable
giving. If I had a few hundred per month coming in, I could probably
commit to a small but regular allotment of time on Spiel development, at
least for the next few months. But again, for this to continue
long-term, we need fore coders. I can't write code, maintain
infrastructure, update a website, provide support, etc. all by myself.

[Peter Vágner]

Hello,
I have to thank for all the work you have put into this so far.

I understand we should not expect too much for free all the time
newertheless I am a bit upset after reading these latest news.
I have got used to spiel that much that I still prefer it over talkback.
However if I won't manage to learn and do some improvements my-self I
will have to get used to talkback again although it may took a while.

In the meantime I will at least try to get the stuff I have attempted to
hack on into hopefully working state. Ideally I'll learn and become more
capable to write code or I'll have to accept there are likelly no big
feature updates coming.

Greetings

Peter

[Drew]

I would donate to continue development if I had it to spare, I really would.
I can, however, donate my time: Spiel needs documentation, and if the
program was still being developed I would be happy to write it so you
wouldn't have to worry about that aspect. Similarly I could help on the
email list with support and such so you wouldn't have to spend your time
answering peoples' questions. I know that's not a lot, but it's something.

[gary melconian]

Peter can you share your developed version with us as an installable apk.
That would be great and you could just take it under development. That would
be a thing to consider. As drew is willing to donate time to documentation
and tech support and there are others that can contribute as well. So think
about it.

[Nolan Darilek]

Documentation is nice and appreciated, but the work that needs doing in
order to a) make Spiel work well with 4.3 and b) dodge a bunch of
questions/criticisms I'll get if I released what I have is all
code-related. Spiel needs a better swipe model, because the current a)
classifies each view as a separate destination, making swiping slower
and b) misses some items. Getting this right is challenging because
there is no documented means for marking a view as being significant for
accessibility, and many views contain duplicate information which it is
difficult to filter. It's all trial and error.

Spiel needs keyboard support. Android 4.3 introduced a mechanism for
intercepting keyboard commands, so it is now theoretically possible to
add a bunch of screen reader specific commands for navigating devices
with keyboards.

Spiel needs support for the new live regions added in 4.4. This should
allow for certain areas of the display to be automatically read on
change, opening up a wide variety of application interfaces.

Tying this all together, Spiel needs a brand new, reconceptualized
scripting system. We need a flexible means of tying scripts to keyboard
commands, tying scripts to widgets and view IDs on screen, etc. Current
thoughts I have involve something a bit like a combination of JQuery
selectors and builders, but there's so much more groundwork to lay that
isn't more than a few pseudocode ideas in my brain. Additionally, we
need a better script distribution mechanism. The old Bazaar was a nice
idea, but was a central point of failure that has since stopped being
maintained. Nice would be the ability to navigate to any Spiel script
from your browser, then to "share" the script with Spiel to install it.
Spiel could then theoretically check the last-modified time of the
originating URL and prompt the user to upgrade scripts on change. This'd
let you host scripts in Dropbox, on your own website, in Github, wherever.

Spiel needs robust plugin support. At the moment there's a complicated,
hacky mechanism by which Spiel can introspect itself, find plugin
classes and add them. This makes it possible to add lots of new
functionality without touching core code. At one point, I had an
experimental single-tap plugin that eliminated the need to double tap,
all in about 30 lines of code. This should be integrated with scripting
such that it is possible to write plugins in JavaScript. It should also
be integrated into the UI so plugins can be disabled, can add additional
UI tabs, etc. Additional R&D should determine if it is possible for
plugins to be shipped in separate APKs, perhaps using metadata tags in
manifests to provide discoverability, with a permission such that
plugins must be granted it to enhance core functionality.

Unfortunately, while documentation would be a nice thing to have, I
really need smart folks to step up and help me brainstorm a lot of these
features. Also, while much of it sounds like nice-to-have, non-essential
things, having solid scripting and plugin systems would potentially make
Spiel easier to maintain for a smaller team. If implementing a core
feature was just a matter of writing a plugin in JavaScript, then it
becomes substantially easier for folks to iteratively improve Spiel
without my explicit blessing. I can throw together quick docs for
gestures and key features in an hour, and better ones can be written
over time. The code, though, has to exist for Spiel to be useful and
less buggy.

Unfortunately, coding on my own is hard to pull off when I'm quite
literally worried about running out of money in a month or two and
perpetually putting out fires.

There's also the fact that building better systems and software
sometimes requires more than one brain working on the problem. I'm
trying to tackle some pretty major architectural issues, but sometimes I
can't figure out a solution alone. It took months of brainstorming
before I came up with a scripting syntax I was somewhat happy with, for
instance. If Spiel was being driven by a team rather than just me, we
may have solved that problem much quicker, and perhaps my time could
have been spent implementing our solution rather than simply trying to
come up with it.

I don't know what to do. I'll keep thinking.

Short term, I'll focus on rebuilding the infrastructure. As a heads-up,
I'm considering switching VCSs again, from HG to Git. Before everything
went down, I was trying to come up with a good architecture that'd let
me open the repository to more contributors without worrying about
someone committing to tip. Unfortunately, Bitbucket and Github are less
accessible than I'd like. While I like Mercurial more than Git, the
reality is that tooling for Git is much more advanced and thorough. I
currently have a Git setup that'd let me offer each user the ability to
create branches while limiting who can merge to master, all without
inaccessible web interfaces. This is something that has been difficult
to achieve with previous infrastructures. Perhaps if I'd had the
capability to open up the repository more previously, I'd have had more
code contributions. Anyhow, we'll see shortly I suppose...

[gary melconian]

Nolan, how come you have not asked about all of this on XDA there are lots
of good programmers there. Also maybe other places that blind programmers
an thinkers like you converste at.

-----Original Message-----
From: spielp...@googlegroups.com [mailto:spielp...@googlegroups.com]

[Dennis Long]

you have grate ideas. I would be willing to give between $50 and 100 a
month if your willing to implament developent. I know that's not much
but I'm trying to do my part to help keep this alive.

[Nolan Darilek]

Because I don't have time to seek people out *and* do the million other
things I need to do other than developing a free app. Besides, I don't
need a bunch of random XDAers. I need folks who are willing to dogfood
Spiel, to run it themselves, and then fire up ADB and figure out how the
focus model issues can be fixed.

[Nolan Darilek]

Also, not to put too fine a point on it, but screen reader development
is somewhat boring. Next to my GPS app, which also hasn't seen lots of
love, an audio game I'm working on which I may sell in a few months,
several other game ideas in the pipeline, an app idea which has the
potential to be very big and integrate cool tech like Glass in a
blind-friendly way...working on Spiel is like being called over to the
awesome party house and asked to unclog the toilet. Who wants to work on
plumbing when there's awesome stuff happening all around, especially as
a volunteer?

On 11/20/2013 05:14 PM, gary melconian wrote:

[Dennis Long]

there are people who will benefit and who truly appreciate your work.

[Nolan Darilek]

Sure, but I've benefitted people for the past four years now. Perhaps
it's time to stop thinking about others and start thinking about me.

[Dennis Long]

with that attitude peopel wil not donate. I offered to donate $50 to
100 a month and that's the response?

[Nolan Darilek]

It's unfortunate that my attitude isn't pleasing to you. But, yes,
realistically I think it's reasonable to say that I've done this for
four years now. In that time, I've lost my job several times, and nearly
lost my home. I've been in the hospital several times for a serious
shoulder injury that I can't fix without insurance, and each trip costs
$4000. I've been there for my girlfriend through her own significant
health issues, and that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of a
whole bunch of other things that I haven't or won't write about here.

The "attitude" you don't like is a realistic one. I was asked if Spiel
development would continue. Realistically, I have to think about myself
if I want my circumstances to improve. To that end, being told how my
work benefits others doesn't do a whole lot *until* that benefit starts
sustainably paying my medical bills, electric bills, grocery bills, or
hell, my beer bills. Donations have gotten me through some tough spots,
sure, and I'd literally have lost my home without them. But donations
aren't sustainable.

Put another way, would you rather I sit silent and unfulfilled? Or would
you rather I be honest about the fact that I have to think about myself
harder than I have in a very long while? And maybe thinking about myself
has made me realize that I can't put sustained effort into Spiel unless
something significantly changes?

Your offer of monthly donations is nice, and I do appreciate it. My
statement and sentiment is, quite simply, that I'm not as moved by
others' benefit from my work as I once was. And, again, it just isn't as
fun as it once was. What's wrong with thinking that four years just
might be enough, and maybe I should switch to building games or AR Glass
apps? Must I give up a life's worth of effort and time? Or can I not say
"no one else is working on this with me, so perhaps it's time to move on?"

Note that I've pretty much answered all of these questions in my own
mind, and am not asking others to validate them for me. I'd like to
think that others could see and appreciate my perspective even if they
don't agree with it, because speaking incredibly plainly, I've given the
community a huge effort of free software. I don't owe it an explanation
as well, even if I do choose out of courtesy to give one.

[Drew]

Oh shove it. If you were really going to do that, you wouldn't talk a big
game on a public email list about donating, you'd shut up and donate.
Instead you bitch, which is real easy to do when you create nothing and rely
on a blind cool check every month to not starve. Meanwhile, in the real
world, people work for compensation. Why take the time to develop a project
that only benefits others when you can spend that same time working on
something that will give you the cash you need to pay bills? This is very
simple, and if you worked a day in your life you'd know that. For-profit
screenreader developers make 6 figures, because it's hard. If you think
anyone is going to do that for peanuts, you're dreaming. If you want to
prove me wrong, Android is open source, Spiel is open source, and the
developer docs are freely available, so have yourself a screenreader
programming party and let us know how it goes. There's literally nothing
stopping anyone from learning the skills necessary accept motivation.

[Drew]

Brainstorming I can do, coding I cannot. I know of a couple of coders,
website people, etc. but that runs into the same problem you have which is
that, at the end of the day people need bread. I know of a couple of people
who know a couple of people with serious $ and will see if I can get them
interested but unfortunately that's all I can think to do at the moment.
Suffice it to say I completely get where you're coming from, I just don't
have a solution.

[Dennis Long]

here is my questions. 1 if we able to find people that were willing to
pay you for development would you guarantee development? How much would
it take for you to develop for say a year? You had also said about
having someone else help you where can they get the sorce code? I do
understand your position and want to help keep this project alive but I
also want assurances that you will develop if the funding is given.

On 11/20/2013 6:51 PM, Nolan Darilek wrote:

[Nolan Darilek]

Thanks for the sentiment, but I'd like to keep things civil here.

Part of why I'm taking a hard line on this is that I, too, am on one of
those "blind cool checks," only I think they're anything but. Giving
something away that is a community effort, where maintaining a brisk
pace of innovation might only take a few hours from me per week, would
be easy. Spending the time I'd need to on Spiel as a solo contributor
would be a part-time job. My hope is to use that kind of time for
sustainable business, and make Spiel something I guide others in
creating as a shared venture.

[Nolan Darilek]

Here is what I will commit to.

The source code has almost always been available, barring the last few
weeks when Docker ate all my containers. Without funding, I will:

1. Rebuild the source code and website infrastructure. As written about
previously, source code will likely migrate to Git. I can then offer any
developer who wants a branch on the main repository, and we can use code
reviews and other formal processes to vet new contributors.

2. Add to the website a roadmap document detailing what ideas I feel are
necessary for a 3.0 release, and where I'd like to go from there.

3. Set up a crowdfunding site with a fixed funding goal for a period of
dedicated development. It will be a fixed funding campaign, meaning that
if I don't hit the goal, contributions are refunded and no work is done.
Without fixed funding, Spiel will only continue in fits and spurts and
won't actually reach its goals. The campaign will include the roadmap
of desired features, maybe with some stretch goals should I pass the
funding goal. It likely won't fund an entire year of development, though
it certainly can if enough contribute. I would likely fundraise for a
smaller interval, maybe 3 months. Also, the development wouldn't be
full-time for various reasons, but given that the code hasn't been
touched in months, it'd be better than nothing. Call it roughly $6000
for 3 months of work, 10-20 hours per week.

With funding, I will:

1. Continue development at a ~$30/hour rate, the exact amount and time
allotment TBD. This is a vastly discounted rate for software
development. Low-end contracting values time at $50/hour so this rate is
a steal.

2. Use funded time to encourage greater community participation. This
may involve writing user/developer documentation to help potential
coders come up to speed with the source.

But in order for the funded items to be realized, the ~$6000 amount has
to be in the bank.

As far as whether or not I'll do what I say, I leave that to you to
decide. I'd remind you that I'm not some Johny-come-lately. I've done
this for four years. If the community *as a whole* steps up to show how
seriously they want Spiel, in a way that gives me financial breathing
room to stop worrying about how I'll make ends meet from month to month,
then whether or not I will work on Spiel isn't a question. I can't do it
full-time--I do want to work on more exciting projects, after all--but I
can build it into the open source screen reader Android deserves.

[Piotr Machacz]

If you do start a fundraiser, I’ll be happy to contribute some cash and help spread the word. I know quite a few Android users here in Poland that don’t really speak english or follow any of the english lists, so yeah. I’m also in the process of learning Java specifically for android programming, so I might eventually also be able to help you with coding but that’s probably going to be a long way from now. One of the main issues why there aren’t really many people helping, I’m guessing, is not many people know how to program. No surprise there, and what narrows it down even more is that we’re talking about a program for Android which is still used by comparatively few blind users. That having been said I Seriously hope that you can take care of this roadblock and continue development as Spiel is a very nice Talkback alternative and does a few things that people keep asking google to add to talkback, even on the bug tracker but they don’t seem to care (having the ability to have a separate synth stands out for me).
So once again, thanks again for all the work you’ve done so far, and I hope you can continue.