PCB milling machine

[Ed Chaney]

Hi,

At work they may potentially be disposing of an LPKF Protomat S100 circuit board plotter. Basically a small milling machine designed for creating prototype PCBs.

Its old, but should be fully working. It has a very out Pentium 4 PC with it to run the software but potentially that could be changed for a newer one, not sure.

Allegedly the software was easy to use. Similar to the laser cutter you need vector like drawings with different colours to tell the machine what to do. It can be used to make PCBs by also engraving metals.

If this may be of interest let me know.

Ed

[Ben Carrington]

Looks like it could be useful if it's working. and tabletop so it could be put somewhere out the way. 

I've cross posted this on slack to see if anyone else has something to say. 

http://www.spezial.cz/pdf/protomat_s100.pdf

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Ben Carrington

[pbgben]

[Ed Chaney]

Thanks for posting on Slack. I'm not following slack these days so please ping me on here if there is any significant interest.

Cheers

Ed

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[Ben Carrington]

I think it will be a yes, but give it a couple days to see if any major objection pops up. 

We could try it out and if it gets no use, then we can pass it onto another maker space. 

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Ben Carrington

[pbgben]

[Bracken Dawson]

Is our UV etch process still stocked and usable? That is far superior to a PCB mill.

The mills can't create traces close together, leave big floating ground planes, and the bit wears out very quickly meaning they produce traces with rough edges and shorts all over the place.

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[Ben Carrington]

I know the UV box is still usable. Not sure about the chemicals. 

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Ben Carrington

[pbgben]

[Alistair Brugsch]

The chemicals and trays were all given the heave-ho at one of the HTS days ages ago (I was annoyed the trays went as they are useful for other things)

The UV box is still somewhere AFAIK

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[Ed Chaney]

I recall us not wanting to keep the hazardous chemicals for PCB etching around indefinitely as there had been a little to no use in recent years.

For PCB work, the S100 claims to do 0.1mm tracks/gaps and 0.00025mm precision. From what I can work out this is higher precision than you would expect to get from the etching process, if nothing else due to the printer you'd need to use to make the mask? They specifically claim clean track edges for microwave RF use but it's true that the quality and age of milling tools would affect this. Admittedly, I have no experience with it myself to be able to verify any of this. I'm not sure why you can't have large floating ground planes.. isn't that just down to the drawing you feed it? PCB design really not my speciality so apologies if I have missed something.

Aside from PCB making, it can be used for engraving and milling. I believe this specific machine was mainly used for precision milling channels for microfluidics rather than PCBs. I would have thought the use in the space is more likely to be precision milling/engraving in general rather than just PCBs. Think metal dogtags, brass plaques, electronics panels, jewellery, models etc.

I will at least express an interest so the space would be first in line if and when they mark it for disposal, I'm not sure how long that will take unfortunately - things can move slowly sometimes...

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[Ed Chaney]

*bump*

They have confirmed that this PCB mill will be disposed of so it is available if useful to the space.

[Ben Carrington]

I would say yes, just to part it out... If its getting scrapped anyway

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Ben Carrington

[pbgben]

[Dr John C Bullas]

I don't think we have space/ use to take it on board

Dr. B

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[Ben Carrington]

We need more space ;)

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[Ed Chaney]

We will need to know one way or the other in the next couple of weeks. Shall we say Wednesday 10th April so that it can be put on the members meeting agenda if it's not clear either way?

If anyone wants to come and look at it, let me know.

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[Dr John C Bullas]

I would say no on a use basis and space basis

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[Holly N]

Ok but what does the rest of the membership say? Has it been discussed at a members meeting?

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[Dr John C Bullas]

Thank you for your acerbic  response, holly.

Of course, the rest of the membership have their input, please don't interpret my post as pre-supposing the consensus of the group: this was not my intention. 

What are your thoughts on the value of a PCB milling machine to SoMakeIt?

Dr B / John B

Dr John C Bullas

Trustee

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[Holly N]

Don't start with me. Just have it as an item on the next member meeting and let the membership decide.

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[Ed Chaney]

Hmmm I feel this needn't be so controversial. Holly I'm going to hope and assume John was just giving his opinion as a member. John, using clever words to have a dig at someone is not actually that clever.

My understanding of the space is that it is a do-ocracy. If people want to make a change, they are able to do so, providing that any negative impacts to other users are reasonable, understood and are acceptable. I refer to this policy: https://somakeit.org.uk/making-changes-to-the-space/

I had suggested a deadline just after the member's meeting, to give time for discussion but also in case a collective decision was required. However, I would be sad if there were a minority that saw the value to the space and were prepared to get involved, being voted down. That isn't what the space is about in my opinion.

Anyway I'm here to discuss the PCB mill, I hope others are too and we can move on....

It is fairly niche so it might not be right for the space, but it's super cool and pretty valuable so it's worth people adding their opinions if they have one. It could have uses other than PCB's - it is essentially a small super accurate CNC router so not a problem engraving metals and very fine detail milling. Remember it's professional prototyping equipment ~£15-20k when new - not to be confused with hobby PCB mills. It is probably ~15 years old at a guess and at NOC it will have mainly been used for milling microfluidic channels into plastic.

Spec sheet: https://www.solectro.se/archive/documents/delkatalog/s100.pdf

The downsides to having it are pretty well understood - it will take up space (the machine is 670 x 540 x 760 mm, plus somewhere for a PC and some accessories), it's heavy, but not milling machine heavy (55kg). It's currently on wheels (see photos at the start of the thread) but doesn't have to be. I haven't tried to use it - I'm told it was working, they just bought a new machine so stopped needing it. I have the latest software from LPKF but it might need the PC fiddling with as that is original to the machine.

So... If you want the PCB prototyping mill in the space, here is your chance to say so, say why you think it's worth having, say how you're going to help make it fit in the space and say what you would use it for.

If not, no worries x

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[Ed Chaney]

Some more info:

Same model on eBay USA, asking price $5000: https://www.ebay.com/itm/305416516501

Manual for reference: https://dokumen.tips/documents/manual-protomat-s100-lpkf-laser-manual-protomat-s100-english-version-20.html?page=66

Info on original cutters: https://www.unilim.fr/fablab19/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2018/10/brochure-lpkf-outils.pdf

I've had a look for 3rd party cutters and prices range from super cheap £1 each, to £7.50 for decent looking ones, to £50 for the best.

The LPKF software is aimed at PCB making process. Thus it will be best at engraving, drilling, cutting (i.e. routing). To do more complex milling and 3D parts might involve some clever thinking on the software side of things, I don't know much about that but could be very interesting to see if it can run with other software.There may be a little learning and documenting so that others can jump straight in.

This smaller machine (~£3500) has some similar capabilities and would be the kind of thing that would be ideal for the space if there was money to throw around: https://wegstr.com/CNC-Wegstr/CNC-Wegstr-(English)

From that page there are some good examples of the kinds of things it should be possible to do with the LPKF using its software without too much fiddling:

PCB's: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a30e6ksGgXw 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCm-UL-dCEc

Engraving:

https://youtu.be/tTNqVcxKrAc

https://youtu.be/eJnhJbpw1_s

https://youtu.be/xRtzZUyB-ls

Simple milling/routing:
https://youtu.be/pyNUvXquKRw

Another cheaper PCB machine - £7000.

https://www.fortex.co.uk/product/fortex-ccd2-cnc-drilling-and-isolation-routing-machine-centre/

[Ben Jacobs-Howe]

Ed, if its capabilities are pushed what materials could it potentially cut ?

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[Ed Chaney]

It uses carbide cutters so any soft metal should be doable at the right speed and feed rate. The documentation states that it can be used for cutting 3mm aluminium faceplates. I have seen people talking about pocket milling aluminium and brass.

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[Ed Chaney]

Chucking a couple of links here before I close the tabs..:

S100 specs: https://www.solectro.se/archive/documents/delkatalog/s100.pdf

Example of engraving cutter: https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/high-performance-coated-carbide-engraving-bits-20-90/high-performance-3175mm-18-diameter-carbide-engraving-cutter-04mm-tip-half-round-90-tialn-coated.html

Example of endmill: https://www.fortex.co.uk/product/rp-series-router/
 - this supplier seems the best - they can fit the collars which will make the tools work with the tool changer. They do all the cutters and drills as well as PCB specific tools.