Removal of most solent.* groups
Phil Dye
** This (rather long) post concerns the future of this group; at the
** very least read the 'IMPORTANT BIT' at the end (but preferably all ;)...
Firstly, some background for those not familiar with the origins of the
solent.* hierarchy...
Sometime in early '95, the (then) two Southampton ISP's, TCP and Aladdin,
along with the Department of Electronics and Computer Science at
Southampton University agreed to start a local usenet hierarchy for the
region. The name solent.* was agreed, as at that time uk.* was not
administered in the same way as at present, and there was no uk.local.*
(indeed, creating a top-level hierarchy was the norm for regional groups).
The following groups were created, with their accompanying descriptions;
solent.announce Announcements for the Solent area
solent.chat General chat. Computer talk is banned
solent.comp Computer discussions
solent.events Events happening within the Solent area
solent.forsale Items wanted and items forsale within the Solent area
solent.general General group for the solent area
solent.net Discussion on the solent.* hierarchy itself
solent.sport Sporting activities in the Solent area
solent.test Test group for the Solent heirarchy
Initially all three sites exchanged news with each other in a 'closed'
group, but after the accidental leakage of some articles by one site
it was decided to allow global propogation, and both TCP and Aladdin began
to feed/accept articles to/from their upstream peers. Over time propogation
has slowly increased, to the point we are at today; many, many sites
carry the groups, but propogation of articles can be patchy or slow between
some sites.
For historical reasons, recent versions of the most popular news server
software, INN, have recognised 'ne...@tcp.co.uk' as the authorative source
for control messages relating to the hierarchy (this is mostly due to
the original newgroup messages being issued by TCP). The effect of this
is that the vast majority of news servers will automatically accept and process
any group creation and deletion messages originating from TCP.
More recently, several proposals have been put forward to further the
distribution, and hence readership, of these groups. Without wishing to
re-open old debates, these summarise as;
1 Remove all solent.* groups and propose a uk.local.[solent|something else?]
group/hierarchy.
Whilst this will undoubtedly gain widespread propogation, the group(s) will
then be subject to the formal procedures of uk.*; 'Request for Discussion',
'Call For Votes' (or 'Fast-Track'), charters, etc, etc...
2 Attempt to boost propogation of existing groups, by issuing a 'checkgroups'
control message.
3 Concentrate existing discussion and traffic into fewer groups by removing
some; the hierarchy is 'spread too thin' at the moment.
Those who have followed previous debates will know that my personal opinion
lies with options 2 and 3. I believe that a combination of removing all
but one or two of the groups, along with booster messages to increase
propogation of the remaining groups, will increase knowledge and use
of the groups significantly, whilst avoiding the bureaucracy that uk.local.*
will bring.
=== THE IMPORTANT BIT ===
**THEREFORE**, unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I intend to issue
rmgroup messages for all *but* solent.chat, solent.announce and solent.test
in fourteen days from now (17/2/98), and follow that shortly afterwards with
a checkgroups message for the three remaining groups (with new, more
appropriate descriptions; suggestions please?). In order for these
control messages to be widely honoured, I will be sending them from
ne...@tcp.co.uk.
Note my use of the phrase "unless anyone can convince me otherwise"; this
debate has happened several times before, and nothing yet has happened.
This time I intend it to be the last ;)
Please note that I am doing this as a reader of the groups (as could anyone
else), *not* as the TCP Network Manager. I will be using the ne...@tcp.co.uk
address for the control messages only to aid honour of them, not because
TCP are controlling the hierarchy (indeed, no one 'controls' any hierarchy;
anyone with the appropriate knowledge can issue control messages for any
group; the hard part is getting them honoured).
If I'm wrong, and coverage does not increase, then we have lost nothing,
and others can (if they wish) persue creation of
uk.local.[solent|something else?] in a few months time.
--
Phil Dye <ph...@lart.ing.co.uk>
(normally the TCP Network Manager, but posting this personally)
"The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" -anon
marion
I have checked my list of umpten thousand newsgroups and found
uk.local.geordie
uk.local.nwengland
uk.local.southwest
uk.local.yorkshire
What do you propose to call the new group? uk.local.solent or
uk.local.wessex or uk.local .southcoast or what? If you do a seach on
uk. there are hundreds of them. Would anyone find us? Does anyone care
if nobody finds us? Just so long as we know what we are called.
please, and not just find empty solent groups as are many extinct
groups, like my uknet.* groups, prob because IA does not download them
or have they changed namesand got lost?
marion
Paul Carter
>** This (rather long) post concerns the future of this group; at the
>** very least read the 'IMPORTANT BIT' at the end (but preferably all ;)...
snip
I often wondered where these solent. ngs appeared from!
I've been a frequent (at least once a day) reader and occasional poster to
some of the groups for a while. Well... since my ISP - Zetnet - started
carrying them.
I think you're right, Phil, the hierarchy is 'spread too thin' at the
moment, but I would argue that the correct place for what's left is
uk.local.solent.blah
That's where a new user would look for the groups, but I have to say I
don't fully understand your reservations re the admin stuff.
Only other thing - why do away with the solent.forsale ng? Seems to me it's
one of the most popular and at least everyone *knows* it's full of spam!
;-)
Cheers Phil, and thanks a lot for maintaining the groups so far.
Paul
--------------------------------------------
| Paul Carter paul |
| Concept Studios dot |
| Portsmouth concept |
| UK at |
| Tel +44 (0)1705 827914 zetnet |
| dot |
| Sorry about the email address co |
| format, the anti-spam campaign dot |
| continues... uk |
--------------------------------------------
Jon
Paul Carter wrote in message ...
>I think you're right, Phil, the hierarchy is 'spread too thin' at the
>moment, but I would argue that the correct place for what's left is
>uk.local.solent.blah
>
>That's where a new user would look for the groups, but I have to say I
>don't fully understand your reservations re the admin stuff.
>
>Only other thing - why do away with the solent.forsale ng? Seems to me it's
>one of the most popular and at least everyone *knows* it's full of spam!
Yep, I totally agree here. Delete them all and put them under
uk.local.solent. etc
As already stated, why do away with the for sale one ? This is easily the
most used (and not just for spam)
Jon
Richard Harvie
Can we keep solent.forsale, or at least come to some decision where local
for-sale adds should go.
Rich.
Phil Dye wrote in message <6b6t81$8lh$1...@hera.tcp.net.uk>...
>** This (rather long) post concerns the future of this group; at the
>** very least read the 'IMPORTANT BIT' at the end (but preferably all ;)...
>
>
Chris Isbell
"Jon" <Jon@Home> wrote:
>Yep, I totally agree here. Delete them all and put them under
>uk.local.solent. etc
I believe that this is the best longer-term solution. The groups could
be created using the fast-track method.
>As already stated, why do away with the for sale one ? This is easily the
>most used (and not just for spam)
I would also support the retention of solent.forsale. In spite of the
posts from people with little sense of geography, it is still a useful
local service.
--
Chris Isbell
Southampton, England
ch...@isbell.demon.co.uk
+44 1703 465367
http://www.isbell.demon.co.uk
Tim C
On the subject "Removal of most solent.* groups"
Phil Dye deliberated and said:
<loads snipped>
>Note my use of the phrase "unless anyone can convince me otherwise"; this
>debate has happened several times before, and nothing yet has happened.
>This time I intend it to be the last ;)
>
>Please note that I am doing this as a reader of the groups (as could anyone
>else), *not* as the TCP Network Manager. I will be using the ne...@tcp.co.uk
>address for the control messages only to aid honour of them, not because
>TCP are controlling the hierarchy (indeed, no one 'controls' any hierarchy;
>anyone with the appropriate knowledge can issue control messages for any
>group; the hard part is getting them honoured).
>
>If I'm wrong, and coverage does not increase, then we have lost nothing,
>and others can (if they wish) persue creation of
>uk.local.[solent|something else?] in a few months time.
If the removal of the solent.* must be considered then so be it but
*please* re-consider *not* dropping solent.forsale. I live in the Solent
area and apart from the inevitable spam in the group, I find it a most
useful place to buy and sell "locally".
If solent.forsale cannot be saved on it's own, may I suggest a new group
is formed i.e. uk.local.solent.forsale, as a replacement as soon as the
old one is dropped.
TC
--
TC
Portsmouth area
Lee C. Bumstead
Phil Dye wrote in message <6b6t81$8lh$1...@hera.tcp.net.uk>...
>** This (rather long) post concerns the future of this group; at the
>** very least read the 'IMPORTANT BIT' at the end (but preferably all ;)...
>
else?]
> group/hierarchy.
> Whilst this will undoubtedly gain widespread propogation, the group(s)
will
> then be subject to the formal procedures of uk.*; 'Request for
Discussion',
> 'Call For Votes' (or 'Fast-Track'), charters, etc, etc...
actually get a larger audience from the Solent/Hampshire area. At the
moment, all the Solent are a bit thin on the group as regards to the
audience.
>
>=== THE IMPORTANT BIT ===
>
>Note my use of the phrase "unless anyone can convince me otherwise"; this
>debate has happened several times before, and nothing yet has happened.
>This time I intend it to be the last ;)
>
Please Please Please don't remove the Solent.Events newsgroup. I use it to
advertise my local amateur theatre group, and a number of others. Plus it is
interesting to find out about other events as well.
Cheers, Lee.
Southampton, Hampshire.
Denis McMahon
Hi Phil
Can I suggest the retention of solent.forsaleas well?
I think the mapping would be something like:
solent.net & solent.events -> solent.announce (but generally with
followups to solent.chat)
solent.comp, solent.general and solent.sport just map straight to
solent.chat. solent.comp maay also map to other uk, big8 etc groups.
Given thaat the functions of test and forsale should be obvious,
descriptors for chat and announce:
solent.chat - The place for discussion about anything in the solent
region. An electronic meeting place for all.
solent.announce - Information about forthcoming events, gigs, network
stuff, weddings, birthdays, new babies etc, anything you want to
announce in the solent area. Please ensure followups are set to
solent.chat.
Just my 2p worth.
On 3 Feb 1998 10:58:09 -0000, Phil Dye <ph...@lart.ing.co.uk> wrote:
>**THEREFORE**, unless anyone can convince me otherwise, I intend to issue
>rmgroup messages for all *but* solent.chat, solent.announce and solent.test
>in fourteen days from now (17/2/98), and follow that shortly afterwards with
>a checkgroups message for the three remaining groups (with new, more
>appropriate descriptions; suggestions please?)
Rgds
Denis
Phil Dye
>I have checked my list of umpten thousand newsgroups and found
>uk.local.geordie
>uk.local.nwengland
>uk.local.southwest
>uk.local.yorkshire
>What do you propose to call the new group? uk.local.solent or
>uk.local.wessex or uk.local .southcoast or what?
Uh... if you read my article again, you'll see that I'm proposing we *don't*
go into uk.local.*, as that would create unneccessary (and to me unwanted)
bureaucracy with formalised procedures to be followed.
>Just so long as we know what we are called.
No names will be changing; just a few of the existing groups disapperaring,
leaving just solent.announce and solent.chat (and solent.test for tests ;)
>please, and not just find empty solent groups as are many extinct
>groups,
The object of the exercise is to avoid precisely that, by i) concentrating
existing traffic into fewer groups, and ii) improving propogation, and
hence readership of the groups, to other servers that do not currently
carry the solent.* groups.
--
Phil Dye | Work: p...@tcp.net.uk
Network Manager | Play: ph...@buggy.ing.co.uk
Total Connectivity Providers | Consider myself properly disclaimed
Phil Dye
>I agree with this one, making a UK.LOCAL.SOLENT.(whatever). This might
>actually get a larger audience from the Solent/Hampshire area. At the
Indeed, it might; but it would also result in formalised procedures and
bureaucracy.
>moment, all the Solent are a bit thin on the group as regards to the
>audience.
Exactly; which is why I am proposing to concentrate existing traffic
into fewer groups, and attempt to improve propogation.
>Please Please Please don't remove the Solent.Events newsgroup. I use it to
>advertise my local amateur theatre group, and a number of others. Plus it is
>interesting to find out about other events as well.
But solent.events overlaps (almost entirely) with solent.announce; given
the convention to have .announce newsgroups, I intend to remove the
duplication and just have a single group.
Phil Dye
>If the removal of the solent.* must be considered then so be it but
>*please* re-consider *not* dropping solent.forsale. I live in the Solent
>area and apart from the inevitable spam in the group, I find it a most
>useful place to buy and sell "locally".
I see no reason why the genuine 'forsale' traffic can't move into
solent.chat; currently solent.forsale receives ~8-9 posts per day,
about 50% of which is spam, attracted purely by the newsgroup name
(a quick glance at the current articles, and the groups to which they
are crossposted makes this clear). That would mean perhaps 5 forsale articles
per day in solent.chat.
I would say that is perfectly acceptable, especially given that it would
cut the amount of spam to those interested in buying and selling, and if
conventions of putting 'FS' or 'COMM' in subject lines were followed,
it is unlikely to upset those not interested in buying and selling.
On a personal note, I don't subscribe to solent.forsale because of the level
of spam; if genuine ads were placed in solent.chat (which I do read) then
I am a potential buyer, and the seller is reaching a larger audience. I am
sure there are many others like me.
If 'forsale' traffic ever becomes too great in solent.chat, then there
is no reason why it can't be split out again (although I would suggest
avoiding the spam-magnet name of solent.forsale).
>If solent.forsale cannot be saved on it's own, may I suggest a new group
>is formed i.e. uk.local.solent.forsale, as a replacement as soon as the
>old one is dropped.
You are of course free to follow the neccessary procedures if that is what
you want...
Phil Dye
[Crossposted and Followup set to solent.net]
In <199802040...@zetnet.co.uk> Peter Duck <pd...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>As I read it, the creation of *new* NGs would be a major task under
>the present rules.
Indeed. It's likely that a Fast Track could be used (unless people objected),
but even then someone has to put together a formal RFD, complete with
charter, etc.
>Just killing a few isn't, even if the names of the survivors might
>not be ideal.
Exactly; a simple attempt to improve readership is worth trying and
costs nothing. As I've said before, if it doesn't work, then someone else
can start the ball rolling on uk.local.solent at a later date.
Phil Dye
>Given thaat the functions of test and forsale should be obvious,
>descriptors for chat and announce:
>solent.chat - The place for discussion about anything in the solent
>region. An electronic meeting place for all.
>solent.announce - Information about forthcoming events, gigs, network
>stuff, weddings, birthdays, new babies etc, anything you want to
>announce in the solent area. Please ensure followups are set to
>solent.chat.
In general the description line for a newsgroup is only ~50 characters,
so these are a bit long.
I think it's important to ensure we get the right keywords in there
as well: at least 'UK' or 'England', perhaps some of the town names
we cover (at the risk of upsetting some!), eg 'Southampton/Portsmouth'.
Bear in mind that these descriptions are often used by news software
when searching for groups.
How about something like;
solent.announce - Announcements for the Southern central area of the UK
solent.chat - Miscellaneous items relevant to Southampton, Portsmouth
and beyond
solent.test - Test group for the solent hierarchy
and if I can be convinced;
solent.forsale - Items wanted and for sale in the Southern central area
of the UK
Denis McMahon
On 4 Feb 1998 15:39:01 -0000, Phil Dye <p...@tcp.net.uk> wrote:
>I think it's important to ensure we get the right keywords in there
>as well: at least 'UK' or 'England', perhaps some of the town names
>we cover (at the risk of upsetting some!), eg 'Southampton/Portsmouth'.
>Bear in mind that these descriptions are often used by news software
>when searching for groups.
>
>How about something like;
>
> solent.announce - Announcements for the Southern central area of the UK
> solent.chat - Miscellaneous items relevant to Southampton, Portsmouth
> and beyond
> solent.test - Test group for the solent hierarchy
>
>and if I can be convinced;
>
> solent.forsale - Items wanted and for sale in the Southern central area
> of the UK
OK, alternatively, would it be possible to fast-track
uk.local.solent.chat and uk.local.solent.announce as replacements for
groups to be removed, given that solent.test -> uk.test, and have the
charter for uk.local.solent.announce allow announcement of fs / wtb in
the area?
This gives a local announce group as well as the chat group, does away
with the test group and forsale group, and gets higher visibility of
"solent" in the global list.
Just another idea.
Or how about solent.uk.announce and solent.uk.local, the groups would
at least show up on a search for "uk" or "uk." in the groups list.
Rgds
Denis
Jon
Phil Dye wrote in message <6ba19c$n5h$1...@hera.tcp.net.uk>...
>Exactly; a simple attempt to improve readership is worth trying and
>costs nothing. As I've said before, if it doesn't work, then someone else
>can start the ball rolling on uk.local.solent at a later date.
I fail to see how killing a few newsgroups is going to vastly (and lets face
it, it needs to be vastly) improve readership.
Jon
Phil Dye wrote in message <6b9dot$hv8$1...@hera.tcp.net.uk>...
>You are of course free to follow the neccessary procedures if that is what
>you want...
Phil,
I take it from the feeling of your postings that although you are "in
charge" of these Solent newsgroups you don't want the hassle of putting them
in uk.local etc ?? Putting them into uk.local seems to be the most popular
choice by far....
Phil Dye
In <886673025.28157.1...@news.demon.co.uk> "Jon" <Jon@Home> writes:
>Phil Dye wrote in message <6b9dot$hv8$1...@hera.tcp.net.uk>...
>>You are of course free to follow the neccessary procedures if that is what
>>you want...
>I take it from the feeling of your postings that although you are "in
>charge" of these Solent newsgroups
As I've said in another post, I'm no more in charge of the groups than
you are. No-one is in charge of any usenet group; if you wanted to send
out a control message to create "solent.what.a.stupid.group.name", then you
are perfectly able to do so. Few sites would honour the message though
(unless you forge it sufficiently well).
>you don't want the hassle of putting them
>in uk.local etc ?? Putting them into uk.local seems to be the most popular
>choice by far....
Perhaps, but i) I believe that would lead to other problems, and ii) I
don't have the time to persue that. So, I'm doing what I believe to be
the next best thing, and that is a quick and simple attempt to improve
on what we've already got. Is there really so much wrong with that???
As I've said before, if someone else wants to try uk.local.solent, then fine;
nothing I'm proposing to do with solent.* affects anyone's ability
to do that (although I would hope that we could wait a bit and see if
my suggestions for solent.* help first).
Jon
Phil Dye wrote in message <6bfjt0$h7k$1...@hera.tcp.net.uk>...
>As I've said before, if someone else wants to try uk.local.solent, then
fine;
>nothing I'm proposing to do with solent.* affects anyone's ability
>to do that (although I would hope that we could wait a bit and see if
>my suggestions for solent.* help first).
Oh come on, if you create the newsgroups and then propose changes to the
naming structure then you possess a degree of responsibility for them.
Besides what happens if someone else decides that Solent belongs under
uk.local, we will then have 2 different groups discussing the same things.
Batch
Out of interest, as I have only just discovered the Solent.* hierarchy,
I ran a group search on Dejanews. The only group listed is
Solent.forsale. Thus, if you decide to remove this group, it would seem
probable that you would lose all potential pointers to the Solent.*
hierarchy from that source. It depends on how important you view
Dejanews.
Batch.
Ian Daish
Hi
You wrote:-
>Last time this discussion came up (which is pretty much all we talk
>about here) I went as far to post a draft RFD, but did not take it
>further as there seemed to be insufficient consensus in the groups to
>take it further. I note that this time round, most of the responses
>to Phil's suggestion have been to the effect that we should move to
>uk.local.*, so maybe I should dust down that proto-RFD...
-snip-
>my only problem about publishing an RFD is that I may well have
>to go to America for a week or so at very short notice, so may not be
>around to do it for a little while. If anyone else would like to take
>it on, you'll have my support.
-snip-
Subject to seeing your RFD please count me in as the person to publish
the RFD. I will be having a change to the email adderess I use within
the next few days.But please post back to me on this one I will still
receive it.
Its strange I was just about to start putting my own RFD together for
a UK.local.hants serries of newsgroups and remembered the old solent
newsgroups.
Not only that as a Southampton Institute student I fancy going one up
on the University and organising this. It would look good for me as a
student.
Thanks
Paul Weaver
*****************************************************************
* Full time BSc(Hons) Computer Studies student at Southampton *
* Institute of Higher Education *
*****************************************************************
Stuart Thomson
A year or so back I had a look at some of the solent.* groups (those
that had a few postings) and then ceased to look until a few days ago.
Having read the posting <Removal of most solent.* groups> thoroughly,
although I am not familiar with such terms as <control messages> and
the way the hierarchy works, I get the general drift and agree that a
more concentrated coverage would be helpful provided that the newsgroups
remaining have a purpose that would attract interest and there's the
rub.
I spend most of my on-line time on genealogy and family history and
believe that there may be a sufficient number of people on line in the
Solent area to draw interest world wide. On the genealogy groups there
are frequent questions about the local area such as <where is the Isle
of Wight?> <can anyone help me with names of ports in Hampshire and
Sussex?>. What would be of interest would be a web site for the Solent
area with links to the Universities and schools, local councils, record
offices, and places of interest. Such a site would stimulate interest in
the area and lead to a greater interest in local newsgroups. It would be
a two way thing.
I realise that this isa little off topic, but it seems that the writer
and some of the correspondents have knowledge and initiative which we
are letting go to waste.
Stuart Thomson
--
Stuart Thomson At Christchurch England
stu...@hycliff.demon.co.uk " where time is pleasant "
Paul Weaver
Paul Weaver wrote using Ian Daish's email acount:-:
Please now forward any email to paul....@solent.tcp.co.uk removing
the nospam
Paul Weaver
Paul Weaver wrote using Ian Daish's email acount:
> Hi
Please now direct your email to Paul at paul....@solent.tcp.co.uk.
Nigel D. King
Stuart Thomson <stu...@hycliff.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>I spend most of my on-line time on genealogy and family history and
>believe that there may be a sufficient number of people on line in the
>Solent area to draw interest world wide. On the genealogy groups there
>are frequent questions about the local area such as <where is the Isle
>of Wight?> <can anyone help me with names of ports in Hampshire and
>Sussex?>. What would be of interest would be a web site for the Solent
>area with links to the Universities and schools, local councils, record
>offices, and places of interest. Such a site would stimulate interest in
>the area and lead to a greater interest in local newsgroups. It would be
>a two way thing.
>
You may like to checkout my web site, which has several pages of links to
sites that are either about the Solent area or of interest to those in the
Solent area.
It can be found at: http://www.dking.demon.co.uk
If you follow the link to the Clubs and Societies page, you will find links
to:- The Hampshire Genealogical Society, The Bitterne Local History Society
and The Titchfield History Society. If you trace your family history back
to time of the Romans, then you could checkout Legio II Augusta:-)
--
_ _ _ _
| \ |<_> ___ ___ | | Home - ni...@dking.demon.co.uk
| || |/ . |/ ._>| |
|_\_||_|\_. |\___.|_| Work - nigel....@exxon.sprint.com
<___'
James Berry
>>What do you propose to call the new group? uk.local.solent or
>>uk.local.wessex or uk.local .southcoast or what?
>
>Uh... if you read my article again, you'll see that I'm proposing we
*don't*
>go into uk.local.*, as that would create unneccessary (and to me unwanted)
>bureaucracy with formalised procedures to be followed.
In my opinion, for what little it's worth, we'd be better off moving the
solent.* groups underneath the uk.local hierarchy. Ok, so there's the
red-tape to go through, but it is the RightThing<tm> to do.
Best wishes
James
Tim Chown
Roy Stilling wrote:
>
> I agree. Rearranging solent.* is going to be a case of rearranging
> the deck-chairs on the Titanic, I'm afraid. Only in uk.local.* will
> "solent" get noticed.
As one of the two people who kicked off the solent.* hierarchy I
agree - at the time we started it uk.local.* wasn't really there,
but now it's the only way to go.
Considering how far solent.* has propogated without ever being
official, we could still run with uk.local.solent between the
original agreeing sites for solent.* and take it from there...?
Tim
Rob Turner
Tim Chown wrote in message <3503E7D0...@ecs.soton.ac.uk>...
I used to visit a Bulletin Board called Metric BBS 01705 817471 or 01705
871472 where the numbers and they had many Local newsgroups online which
appeared to be mirrored USENET groups.
I might take a squeeze at these and thought you all might be interested too.
If you are going to dial em try 141 infront of the number as its been a
while since I used then and the numbers may have been reallocated.
Robbo,