freebsd-chat Digest, Vol 67, Issue 4
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10. Your confirmation is needed (ok 334336) (Lyris ListManager)
11. training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator)
(fwd) (Dru)
12. Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network
Administrator) (Glenn Sieb)
13. Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network
Administrator) (fwd) (Matthew Seaman)
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Some twit is abusing your service to subscribe FreeBSD.org mailing
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:31:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dru <dlav...@sympatico.ca>
Subject: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator)
(fwd)
To: freebs...@freebsd.org
Message-ID: <200407022...@dru.domain.org>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
As suggested, this thread is being moved to chat. All
comments/suggestions/rants regarding a BSD training curriculum most
appreciated. Please cc me in any replies...
Dru
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:16:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dru <dlav...@sympatico.ca>
To: freebs...@freebsd.org
Subject: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network Administrator)
On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Bill Vermillion wrote:
<big snip>
> I've been an outside consultant where a company hired a new grad
> and sent them off to a school to learn what they needed. None of
> them seemed to understand the system - just how to do certain
> things. I think it's a symptom of the modern education systems
> where people are taught to pass tests and are not educated in
> the field of their choice.
And modern education systems are getting worse, not better. Since I entered the
training scene in 1997, I've seen 3 year curriculums get cut down to 4 months.
Government programs, scholarships, and bursary programs slashed down to
pittances. Apparantly, IT isn't as hot as it used to be. Worse, many who are
hiring prefer someone with only 4 months of training
and a superficial understanding of what they're being paid to do. That way
they'll follow their scripts unquestioningly and not complain at being
paid $10 an hour.
I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality BSD
training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical, thought
provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the place to hash it out.
Anyone care to suggest a better place to continue on this thread?
Dru
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 00:02:21 -0400
From: Glenn Sieb <g...@wingfoot.org>
Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network
Administrator)
To: freebs...@freebsd.org
Cc: Dru <dlav...@sympatico.ca>
Message-ID: <40E62FC...@wingfoot.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Dru said the following on 7/2/2004 10:16 PM:
> And modern education systems are getting worse, not better. Since I
> entered the training scene in 1997, I've seen 3 year curriculums get
> cut down to 4 months. Government programs, scholarships, and bursary
> programs slashed down to pittances. Apparantly, IT isn't as hot as it
> used to be. Worse, many who are hiring prefer someone with only 4
> months of training and a superficial understanding of what they're
> being paid to do. That way they'll follow their scripts
> unquestioningly and not complain at being paid $10 an hour.
I knew a guy back in the mid 90s who, while on Unemployment, decided to
go to some training and become an MCSE. Of course, NJ Unemployment only
cared about the *placement* rate the schools had, not whether they were
worth their salt. So he got his MCSE, and landed a job working 50+ hours
a week, tied to a pager 24x7 for a whole $25,000 a year. In metropolitan
NJ. I had even advised him about how much an MCSE would add to his
worth, and such, but he was offered the job and had to accept it (back
then they had very totalitarian rules about such things with
Unemployment in NJ). And he justified it by saying he had no experience
anyway. Even though he aced all his tests. And yes, I know, book
learning <> real world. But the fact that he _aced_ them counts for
something. He hadn't passed by the skin of his teeth like a lot of
people who go to such classes do. He bothered to actually play with the
OS and learn it in addition to what he was doing in class. I lost track
of him soon after he started his new job. I often wonder how he turned
out--did he succeed or did he burn out? :-/.
> I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality
> BSD training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical,
> thought provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the
> place to hash it out. Anyone care to suggest a better place to
> continue on this thread?
I, for one, would love to partake. I'm no you or Tom Limoncelli or Greg
Lehey, but I can hopefully share what I've learned over the past few
years, both at Lumeta, and on the experiences I've had on my personal
server. :) As the old saying goes.. "Hey! It's another learning
experience!" :)
And--by the way--*kudos* on the new book! I've been a fan of your OnLamp
series for a while now, and was waiting for this book with baited
breath! :) Very nice job indeed! [In case you missed it, Dru's _BSD
Hacks_ was recently released by O'Reilly!]
Best,
Glenn
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
~Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
(Remember--July 30th is System Administrator Appreciation Day!
http://www.sysadminday.com/ Wishlists at http://www.wingfoot.org/~ges/)
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 11:06:39 +0100
From: Matthew Seaman <m.se...@infracaninophile.co.uk>
Subject: Re: training (was Resourceful BSD/Linux Network
Administrator) (fwd)
To: Dru <dlav...@sympatico.ca>
Cc: freebs...@freebsd.org
Message-ID:
<20040703100...@happy-idiot-talk.infracaninophile.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Fri, Jul 02, 2004 at 10:31:50PM -0400, Dru wrote:
> I'd love to see a forum established to discuss how to bring quality BSD
> training to the masses. To create a curriculum that is practical, thought
> provoking, and available. However, freebsd-jobs isn't the place to hash it
> out. Anyone care to suggest a better place to continue on this thread?
Count me in. This is something I've thought about off and on, but
never to the extent of coming up with any concrete proposals. I did
come to the conclusion that the best way for the FreeBSD project to
institute a worthwhile qualification -- one that employers would find
credible and trust meant the person with it actually did know their
stuff -- would be to get a University or similar institution to issue
a certificate or diploma as part of an "External Studies" program. I
don't know how well that translates outside the UK, but here most
Universities run evening or other short courses as a service to the
local communities. These vary from "just for fun" to seriously
academic stuff.
Here, for example is what my Alma Mata provides:
http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/cpd/
Cheers,
Matthew
PS. See also: an interuniversity scheme between Oxford, Yale and
Stanford, which could do with a bit more weight on the
Scientific/Technical side:
--
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 26 The Paddocks
Savill Way
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Marlow
Tel: +44 1628 476614 Bucks., SL7 1TH UK
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